Crime Weekly - S3 Ep243: Dee Dee Blanchard: The Doctors (Part 2)

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

A small, quiet town in Missouri. A devoted mother caring for her chronically ill daughter. A story of love, sacrifice, and survival. Or so it seemed. But behind closed doors, beneath the layers of sympathy and kindness, there was a dark secret waiting to be uncovered. For nearly two decades Dee Dee Blanchard told the world that her daughter, Gypsy Rose, was dying. Leukemia, muscular dystrophy, seizures, vision and hearing issues, the list of illnesses and medical concerns was endless. Gypsy, a seemingly happy little girl with a huge smile, was bound to a wheelchair, fed through a tube, and showered with the attention and support of everyone around her, but no one really knew the horrifying truth. It seemed that Gypsy was perfectly healthy. She could walk. She didn't need a wheelchair to get around, and it appeared that she was being kept a prisoner in her own body, in her own home, by her own mother. The story goes that years of abuse, manipulation, and lies built up until they all came crashing down in the most unthinkable way: Murder. On the night of June 14, 2015, Dee Dee Blanchard was found stabbed to death in her home, and the prime suspect? Dee-Dee's innocent, smiling, happy, and allegedly disabled daughter, along with the man that Gypsy had been having a very adult relationship with. But nothing about this case is as it appears to be. This is the story of Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Smalls.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 50% off your first order and FREE shipping! 2. TryFUM.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for a FREE gift with your Journey Pack! 3. ShipStation.com/CrimeWeekly - Sign up for your FREE 60-day trial! 4. FreshDirect.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for $50 off your first order! 5. Talkspace.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code SPACE80 for $80 off your first month!

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're diving into part two of the Dee Dee Blanchard and Gypsy Rose Blanchard case. And today is going to be a little of a different episode because we have a guest who we're going to introduce momentarily, but we're also going to go through the timeline of Gypsy Rose's medical history in this episode. So all the doctors, nurses, medical people out there, I know that you're out there because I see you in the comments. It's great. And you are going to definitely have your fill of information in this episode. And then Derek and I are going to kind of, after we bring our guest on, who's very familiar with Gypsy Rose's medical records, we're going to sort of give our take as she goes through the timeline

and kind of how we see it. And based on our very lengthy interview and the time we spent with her, what we got from it. So are you ready, Derek? I am ready. I want to preface it by saying, because we've already done the interview, we did it yesterday, actually. I think with this interview, some of you are going to agree with Fancy. Some of you are not. And I think like a lot of things in life, it's open to interpretation. It's the same information, but just like our political climate, you can take the same clip and interpret it two separate ways. So I'm really looking forward to hearing your feedback in the comments to let us know what

you think about all of this and what you make of it and how it affects your opinion on this case in totality. So. Yeah. And basically what we want to say is we're trying to show both sides and we're trying to show many different sides of the narrative, which is, you know, obviously the mainstream well-known narrative, that being that Gypsy Rose Blanchard was a victim of her mother who suffered from Munchausen by proxy, even though Dee Dee Blanchard was never officially or formally diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy. And then this other emerging narrative is that essentially, which is kind of what our guest believes, is that Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee both came from a family of con artists, people who learned and had lived their lives trying to get as much as they could with as little actual input and

effort as possible. So what our guest today thinks is that Dee Dee Blanchard was a con woman and Gypsy Rose was raised to also be a con artist. And they kind of came from a family of con artists. So this was just the typical environment that both Dee Dee and Gypsy were raised in. It was what they felt was normal and it was the way that they knew how to function. And how our guest explains this is you can tell that Gypsy Rose suffered from actual medical issues, that the reasons she was going into the doctor were real and the doctors were treating her for real illnesses, things like putting a feeding tube in. And many of you in the comments who have medical experience, like doctors, nurses, nurses' aides, things like that, you were like, there's no way that doctors are going to perform a surgery to put a feeding tube into a child just based on the word of the mother.

They're going to make sure there's a legitimate medical reason to do that. Gypsy Rose had her salivary glands removed. She and many other people have said that DeeDee had this done without an actual reason and that DeeDee made these symptoms happen in Gypsy so that the doctors felt there was a legitimate reason to do that. But once again, doctors aren't going to go in and just operate and remove a child's salivary glands based on the word of the mother. Yeah, because the parent asked you to. Yeah. So what our guest today is saying is all of these things were legitimate medical reasons for Gypsy to be in, except for the cancer diagnosis, which obviously there was never a cancer diagnosis. But essentially, the only reason that Dee Dee and then Gypsy, as she got older, kind of went along with this stuff was for the benefits that they were getting, the financial benefits and the trips and all of this stuff, because there was no medical fraud

happening. Because if medical fraud was happening, Medicare, who had paid for most of these procedures, would have come after them at some point and even would have come after Gypsy after the death of her mother, things like that. There would have been something going on. The doctors would have been sued for malpractice, things like that. And none of that stuff happened because the medical procedures were necessary and were done. They were warranted. And so basically, Gypsy and DeeDee were kind of this partnership at some point, and they were kind of going along with it because of what they were receiving from, not necessarily the doctors, but from the community that surrounded them, which is why they moved around so much. Yeah, I think what you're going to hear a lot of today, and we were talking about it before we hit record, and it's going to come up later in the episode, is the

difference between Munchausen by proxy and malingering by proxy, and that they're not the same. And I will say in episode one, a lot of you guys mentioned that in the comments. So we're going to dive more into that. I think you got to take out of it what you want. And I appreciate most people just listening as we go. As Stephanie said to me in episode one, you just got to trust me on this.

We're going to go over everything. We're not saying that any of this is fact. We're trying to present both sides. And then by the end, we'll give you our opinions. And hopefully you guys will hold off until then to come to your own conclusions as well. I don't even have it. I don't have a conclusion yet. That's what I'm saying.

We don't. Yeah. We don't. I mean, and we did the interview yesterday. Stephanie had brought Fancy in and I'm approaching this whole thing with a level of skepticism. And I said it to Fancy in the interview, like, don't take it personal. I just, I got to push back on this because there are people who disagree with you. So I have to be that person.

So I'm asking those questions, not because I feel that way, but because they're going to be asked in the comments. And she was like, listen, totally get it. So there was some pushback. It wasn't us just sitting there listening to everything Fancy said and eating it all up with a silver spoon. It was some conversations about some of the things she said and some clarifications as well. Yeah. And once again, as Derek said, these are medical records and we've seen this happen a

million times in trials where we'll have one expert witness for one side, look at medical records or look at a psychiatric evaluation and get a certain analysis from that. And then another expert from the other side looks at the very same information and gets a completely different analysis. People are going to have different analysis or analyses based on the information that's in front of them. But what we are doing here is trying to hear every side out. And so nothing that we're putting on our podcast episode today is something that we wholeheartedly 100% stand behind. But we are exploring this as you are.

And we're going through this as you are. And we're gathering their information as you are. So at the end of it all, when we have as much as possible, we can put that all together and see how we feel about it. But Fancy does have an extensive knowledge of this case, an extensive knowledge of the medical records, as you're going to see. And Stephanie, why did you bring her on? I asked you this before we started recording. So yes, it was pretty much the comments when we did the Crime Weekly News. And there was people saying, you don't know what you're talking about. Gypsy's not a victim.

And then a lot of people said, check out Fancy Maselli. So that is what I did. And then I reached out to her. I talked to her. She helped me out with medical timelines and things like that. And then I said, hey, why don't you come on

and tell us what you know? Because I have these records now, right? But you've been with them for so much longer. You're going to have a better grasp on them. And also it's going to help clarify things for us. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's, we can get into it. And as we said at the top of this, these are Fancy's opinions. They don't necessarily reflect the opinions of myself or Stephanie. We're giving her the platform to talk about it per a lot of your recommendations. So take out of it what you will. Absolutely. So we're going to get started where we left off.

Gypsy and DeeDee, they're kind of on the run, right? They're not really in touch with Gypsy's father, Rod, and his wife, Christy. They're definitely not super in touch with DeeDee's family, the Blanchards. And they're all over the place, but they're going to end up in Slidell, Louisiana. So on the morning of August 29th, 2005, one of the deadliest and most destructive hurricanes in United States history made landfall. As Hurricane Katrina roared through the Gulf Coast, Slidell, a city 45 minutes northeast of New Orleans, experienced catastrophic flooding and destructive winds. The storm surge overwhelmed Slidell's levees, leading to the decimation of homes, businesses, and infrastructure. The Twin Span Bridge, which connects Slidell to New Orleans, suffered extensive damage as the rising storm

surge pulled or shifted bridge segments off their piers. A total of 64 spans, each weighing over 255 tons, had fallen into Lake Ponchar train below, and another 473 spans were misaligned, which is crazy because each of those spans weighed 255 tons. And so it really gives you an indication of how strong the winds and the water was during Katrina, how devastating this storm was. And we know that it affected New Orleans very badly, but just 45 minutes away, Slidell also got hit. So in Slidell, New Orleans, and many other cities in Louisiana and Mississippi, countless lives were lost and residents were forced to evacuate their homes, seeking refuge with family, friends, or in shelters. Dee Dee Blanchard and her then 14-year-old daughter,

Gypsy Rose, were amongst the droves of people escaping the floodwaters, and Dee Dee and Gypsy, for a time, they stayed in a shelter for people with special needs in Covington throughout the worst of the storms. And when the winds and the rains had subsided, they returned to their apartment building, only to find it devastated. Luckily, the two would once again benefit from the kindness of strangers. It didn't take a lot to convince Dee Dee and her daughter Gypsy Rose to make a new home in Aurora. They already knew it was meant to be. It is the perfect town, the perfect place. I think it was it was a blessing in disguise. It took something like a hurricane to make us have a happy ending. Dee Dee was happy enough just having medical

care for Gypsy. She says she never expected this. It's amazing. It's amazing the outpouring of love and support. Dr. Janet Jordan met Didi and Gypsy while on a mission trip to the hurricane-ravaged areas. She says she knew right away she'd see them again. They're like lost souls who were meant to have been born and raised in Aurora. After arranging a helicopter ride from Louisiana to St. John's Hospital, the process began to find them a permanent home. It turns out St. John's already owned this house,

and with the help of local donations, it was turned into a home. I think that's just kind of what we're all about. We're all about doing what we can to help people that are in a bad situation. It's beautiful, and it's happy, and it's full of love. Gypsy and Dee Dee say they're blessed. Dr. Jordan says they deserve to be. It was pretty devastating down there, it really was, and they just they never ever lost hope. I think they brought hope to everybody else that was down there. This is home to us. We have been wandering for so long and this is finally our home. So it's so good to be here. This is Kara Rustelli reporting for KY3's

Ozarks Today. So Aurora is located in Lawrence County, Missouri, and for two years Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee lived there in a house that St. John's Hospital provided to them rent-free. And when we talk to our guest, Fancy Masali, in a little bit, she's going to explain that a doctor, a specific doctor that Gypsy had been seeing for about a decade at that point in Louisiana, he sort of arranged this house for them, and he actually had relocated to Missouri at that point. So according to Dee Dee, she had not only lost Gypsy's birth certificate to Hurricane Katrina, but also all of her medical records. And both of these things being lost, quote unquote, would be convenient for Dee Dee in the future. In June of 2008, Habitat for Humanity built the

Blanchards a cute little pink house in Springfield, Missouri, complete with a wheelchair ramp and a jacuzzi bathtub for Gypsy's physical therapy. The two were interviewed after Habitat for Humanity built them a handicapped accessible home because of Gypsy's disabilities. They said she was confined THEIR HOME. THEY SAY THEY HAVE A CONFINED HOUSE AND A CONCESSIBLE HOME BECAUSE OF GYPSY'S DISABILITIES. THEY SAID SHE WAS CONFINED TO A WHEELCHAIR. WE HAVE AN AWESOME BACK TUB. IT'S A JACUZZI TUB MEANT FOR MY

MUSCLES. AND WE HAVE A WONDERFUL RAMP. I REMEMBER MY MOM HAD GAVE ME THIS LITTLE GLASS HOUSE AND SHE SAID ONE DAY THIS WILL BE REAL. AND NOW IT FINALLY IS. THAT'S GYPSY 7 YEARS AGO.

CLUTCHING HER MOTHER, D-D'S HAND. IT'S SO EASY TO LIVE HERE. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL.

IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL.

IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL.

IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. IT'S SO COOL. day this will be real and now it finally is. That's Gypsy seven years ago clutching

her mother Dee Dee's hand. It's so easy to live here and it's so peaceful. Building the house has been incredible to see something that's just a hole in the ground and for it to be done it's an experience like no other. It's a happy ending. Well, this is a good cause. This is my favorite cause, yeah. Yeah, so up to this point, you see i see a couple things i see a young girl who clearly is going has some medical conditions something going on or at least the perception that she has something going on and you can see how a community can come together to support people like this

people who are going through hard times. And it's one of the best things about our society is that we will- Our humanity, yeah. We will come together to help those in need in some cases. So on one hand, it makes me happy to see this, to see this young girl who's getting this happy ending as she described it. On the other hand, I can't help but look through a skewed lens of what's really going on here. Cause now this is, you know,

we're looking at in 2024 and with hindsight, a lot of things have transpired, including DD, no longer being here and being murdered by gypsy and her boyfriend. So it's a very different story these days as far as happy ending. So it's tough to watch that video and not think about that, but I'm trying to stay in the moment and take it step by step because that's where we were in 2008. So it's important to keep that in context. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that if you were with Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee at that time, especially in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, right? Because so many people were displaced. So many people were struggling. Everybody, the world knew about it. I can't believe that was that long ago. I know. It feels like it was not that long ago.

Yes, with the Superdome. Especially because, yeah, Gypsy and Dee Dee spent some time in the Superdome. Apparently, according to Fancy Maselli, who we're going to get to in a second, this is when Gypsy and Dee Dee shaved Gypsy's head, hoping that a cancer diagnosis would give them more of a chance of basically getting the hell out of Dodge, right? They had to get out of the New Orleans area. It's devastated. There's nothing there. They don't have money. They no longer have a place to live. Are they going to go back to Dee Dee's family who, you know, she's not on great terms with because allegedly they've been questioning what's going on with Gypsy? Are they going to call rod and christy and and is dd going to suck up her pride to admit that she needs help from gypsy's father at this point no they're going to try to figure out a way or at least dd and and possibly gypsy as well are going to try to figure out a way to use

the you know i am a sick little girl in a wheelchair kind of mask in order to get the help and use the system. And apparently that is a little bit of what happened. And they did end up, while they were in that shelter after Katrina, it was a shelter for people with special needs. And it was apparently and reportedly Gypsy who had approached this doctor, Dr. Janet Jordan, the one you saw in that clip. And it was basically saying, you know, I'm very sick, I have cancer, and I got to get out of here, right? And this is when they airlifted them to St. John's. And from there, the rest is history. They get that St. John's house for a few years in Missouri, and then they get the house built for them in Springfield by Habitat for Humanity. So now they're pretty much set up absolutely fine. And we're going to go back into this timeline, into this time when we're talking about Gypsy's medical history. But before we do that, before we get on that journey, let's take a quick break. All right, we're back from break. And before the

break, we were talking about this fictitious cancer diagnosis that never happened. And this is the first instance where what I described to you at the top of the show comes into play. What do I mean by that? You have a situation here where clearly from that clip, which is why Stephanie included it, you can see that Gypsy's head is shaved. And I had asked Stephanie, or I had posed the question in episode one, who was involved in this, right? Was Dee Dee holding Gypsy down and shaving her head, even though Gypsy didn't want to do it? Was Gypsy shaving her own head? Was it a collaborative effort? The fact of it is her head was shaven. The fact is that Gypsy and Dee Dee both knew Gypsy didn't have cancer. The question and where your opinion and the opinions of others come into play is who's responsible here? Who's

at fault? I think you can make an argument. It's entirely Dee Dee's fault because she's the adult. She's been programming and ingraining and grooming Gypsy from a very young age to believe this is the right way to do things, to get what you want. I also think there's going to be people who could say, listen, at this point, Gypsy was what, 13, 14 years old, right? She knows right from wrong, but yet she's playing along with it now because she wants these things as well. Yeah. She wants the Disney world trips. I mean, she got to meet Miranda Lambert and Blake Shelton and they gave her money and she got to meet Sean Astin from Lord of the Rings, like one of her favorite actors. And she was swimming with dolphins. And the way that the fancy Miss Ellie poses it is dd pretty much sat her

daughter down at some point and was like hey listen we're gonna keep getting all this cool this good stuff right we're gonna keep getting houses built for us and people giving us money and putting us up on stage and you know all of these fairy tale things that that you want all you gotta do is let me keep shaving your head and sit in this wheelchair when people are around. And that's all, just play the game. And Fancy likens Gypsy less to a victim and more to a child actor who knew the role that she was supposed to play and played it. Now, I might say, I might argue with that and I might say, I think child actors are abused technically. You know, I don't think I always get uncomfortable when I see a child actor who's consistently in things. And I worry about

these kids. Right. Because it's like, are you old enough to actually consent to what you're doing, which is essentially signing away your entire childhood. Right. You're not going to real school. You're getting like, look at the kids on. I don't even know how old they were when they started on the Stranger Things show, like season one, they were very young. You're probably getting homeschooled on set. You don't have a normal life. You're not coming home from school and playing with your friends, whether it's on video games or playing outside with them. You're not doing your homework at night and going to bed at a decent hour. Like you're on set 12, 16 hours a day. You're getting homeschooled. If that, you don't have the same amount of friends. Your friends are other child actors. It's a completely different life. And are they old

enough to consent to and really understand what that means, what they're giving away? Or are their parents like, hey, you're going to have money and you're going to get to do cool things and you're going to get to go to cool places. And the kid's like, hey, you're going to have money and you're going to get to do cool things and you're going to get to go to cool places. And the kid's like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Do they actually understand what they're giving up? I don't know. You might say that child actors are victims of their parents as well. But at what point does it become, okay, this is more about my free will now.

I'm old enough to make my own decisions and not go along with this anymore. And if there does come a moment where that child says I'm old enough to not go along with this anymore, does that mean that Gypsy wanted to go along with it? I think that's where those answers will never have because Dee Dee is no longer with us. And so you only have one side of the story, but from where I'm sitting, this is absolutely, just even watching this clip, it's a form of child abuse. I'm not saying what I feel about Gypsy as far as the murder, which we're going to talk about as the series progresses, but compartmentalizing these things individually is important here because two things can be true at once, right? And I don't necessarily

think Gypsy was pushing back against Dee Dee at this point saying, I don't want to do this. Why are you making me do it? But the reality for me, at least just my opinion, is that this was what was taught to Gypsy at a very young age. It's all she really knew. And I do think the way you describe those conversations going is what happened. And that to me is still a form of child abuse. And in that

sense, Gypsy is a victim because again, that's her mom's responsibility to teach her right from wrong, not to condone this type of behavior. And yet when I say the word partners, I don't say it in the criminal sense. I say it more in the sense of that's how Dee Dee viewed their relationship. And I think maybe even gypsy as a younger person Wanting the love of her mom saw it as a bonding experience to be working together Collaboratively to do these types of things. So there's only one person in that story That should be will at that point even though gypsy's 14 Should be the one saying this isn't what we should be doing. And I also think that because gypsy did have some things going on,

you're, you're taking advantage of a young person who's not completely in the position to make those decisions. So that's my problem. Here's the huge, huge distinction though. And I kind of agree with this. DD was not making Gypsy sick. Gypsy did have health

problems that were being capitalized on and used for financial and monetary gain. And Fancy gave an example of John Sheehan when we were talking in our interview. And John Sheehan, for anybody who doesn't know, that's Dirty John, very well-known true crime story of this man who basically finds this woman. She's got money, and he love bombs her, and he says he's rich, and he's got a beach house, and he doesn't have any of that. He's a lifelong con artist, and he learned the game of the con from his father. Now, does that make him less culpable as an adult? No. And Derek and I were talking before we started recording. You can look at any of these serial killers, any of these prolific or non-well-known serial killers, and you can trace back into their

childhood abuse, neglect. Yeah, some level of trauma along the way. Of course. But that doesn't mean that as adults, we're holding them less culpable for their actions of murder or killing or whatever, based on the fact that in childhood they were treated poorly. So what you have to understand is when Gypsy killed her mother or took part in the plan to kill her mother, when she was arrested, she was 23 years old. She doesn't look 23. She tells the police in the interview that she's 19. She's 23. She is an adult, and she was well aware of that fact. But even after she killed her mother, and even after she orchestrated this plan to do so, and the police are sitting her down and asking her, how old you are, she's saying, I'm 19. She's still lying, even though there is plenty of evidence that she knew exactly how old she was at the time she was arrested. So she continued lying even after her mother was gone. And some might say she was just doing what she had learned to do her whole life. And some might say she was keeping the con going.

Here we go. Here's the debate. This is a debate that's going on in the comments as well. I think a lot of the reason the Gypsy Rose story is so polarizing because you can find people that support all sides of this. So this is just one of it, and we're only 25 minutes into this episode. So imagine where it's going to go. All right. Well, to go over Gypsy Rose Blanchard's medical history and records with us, we did bring in Fancy Maselli, and I'm going to have her introduce herself to you and

tell you why she is somebody that she feels she's able to talk at length about this stuff. So I basically got into this by just wanting to write a little show. I did not expect for it to be like something that became my whole life at all. Like, you know, if you had asked me eight years ago, when I started this, if this was where I was going to be sitting today, I would have laughed at you. I would have been like, oh, absolutely not. So I didn't start out to try to be like the expert on this case or anything. That happened along the way. So about two years into me being with the Blanchards and we, you know, I went down there, I met them in person, we signed a life rights agreement, all of those different things. I basically started questioning. Like I always

expected Gypsy to lie because that's the nature of what she grew up as. You know, she grew up being taught that it's okay to lie, to lie with no remorse. And she even says it in Mommy Dead and Dearest. She's never been honest, not even with her attorneys, right? So I expected that, but I did not know that the family would lie to me. Well, when I saw the show come out,

I saw more of the interrogation video than I had seen in Mommy Dead and Dearest. And so I asked them about it and she goes, oh, well, we got the interrogation video up in Waukesha, which is where they were arrested, you know, Wisconsin. And I had never even thought of looking there. Like, oh, my God. I was like, oh, wow. So we put in a FOIA, but then she just asked me, she goes, do you just want it? And I was like, oh, yeah, absolutely.

Now, who said this? This was an A&E producer. I got that interrogation video and it changed everything because I really feel like once you see that, you can't unsee it. And you know, it really was a shocking moment for me because I kept waiting for Gypsy to finally tell the truth. I was abused. I was this, I was that. And it never came. And it was four hours of just lie after lie, after lie, after lie. And it was so well done. Like she didn't miss a beat.

And as soon as she knew that they weren't buying this one thing, and they gave her Nick, Stan gave an opening to her, and he said, was Nick the one who did this? And she just flicked on a dime and turned on him. And it was shocking to me. And I cried. And I realized that everything I had thought I knew at that point was false. I'm going to pause really quickly here because Fancy mentioned something about the interrogation video.

She's talking about the four-hour interrogation video of when Gypsy Rose was arrested. Now, I know for a fact Derek has never seen this video, probably hasn't even seen clips of it. I have watched the entire thing, but I have put together a few early portions in the interview for us to listen to and react to. And that way Derek can get an idea of how Gypsy was behaving in her interrogation video. And for those of you who haven't heard or seen Gypsy in her police interrogation after the murder of her mother, you guys can also get an indication of how she was behaving. And I want you to understand that you need to be honest with me. And if you're involved in anything that's not about ready to tell you, then you need to tell me.

Okay? Your mom's dead. Okay? Now, what I want to ask you is... Wait, what? What? Your mom's passed away. Okay? And she's deceased. Alright? Now, what I want to ask you, did you have involvement in this? Okay? No. Hang on. Hang on. Listen to me for just a second okay I want you understand something okay near this snowball we talked about you remember the pencil that we talked about almost demonstrate something with a pencil here okay look at me look at me for just a second okay sometimes people go along you

know how you got a pencil? You got the lead here and you got the eraser right here, right? You know what I'm talking about? You've seen a pencil, right? You've used a pencil before, right? Okay? When you write with a pencil, you write your own story, right? Okay?

And you take that pencil and you're writing along with your story. Well, sometimes some people make mistakes when they write stuff down, don't they? We've all made mistakes. You've? Well, I've made mistakes. You've made mistakes. I've made mistakes, right? Have you ever made a mistake in your life? And I've made mistakes in my life. Hang on just a second. When you're writing this stuff down,

all of a sudden you make a mistake. Well, what do you do with that mistake? You take that pencil and you flip it over and you start erasing stuff, okay? And you erase it and you re-correct it. And you take that pencil and then you rewrite your history, your story, okay? And I kind of think

that's where you're at with this tonight, okay? That you have a chance to rewrite your story. And I think that that's what you can do, is you can rewrite your story tonight, okay? Like I said earlier, I don't think you're a bad person. I really don't. You know, I don't think that that's you at all.

And you're not out here, you know, doing things that are so bad that nobody wants to talk to you, nobody wants to be around you. I don't think that's you. Okay? But what I do think, okay, what I do think is there's some stuff going on that you and I need to talk about. And why these things happen, okay? Mm-hmm.

And that's where we're at with this, okay? Now, I want you to understand something. That you need to be, look at me, okay? Look at me for just a second, okay? You're in a situation where you can help yourself right now, okay? And that's what you need to do okay you've got to help yourself okay because the more and more you let that snowball roll down that hill and get bigger what's gonna happen is it's gonna explode and that's

what's gonna happen with you you know you don't want that do you I don't think you do I wouldn't want that so we've got to rewrite history we've got to rewrite some things don't we? Uh-huh. Okay? And I think that's where we're at with all this, right? Uh-huh. What happened with your mom that night? Um, I don't know. I don't know with my mom at all. Okay, you just listen to me, okay sweetheart? You know what happened to your mom, okay?

Yeah. You know exactly. Sweetheart, listen to me. Let's not go down that road of taking your pencil and writing a bunch of mistakes down. And then when you get to a certain point, that paper's gone, and guess what? You can't erase it, can you? No. You can't erase it anymore. Do you want that?

No. I don't think you do. No. I think you're smart enough to understand where we're at with this, okay? I think you know, okay? And I know that you know, all right? I wouldn't be here if I didn't know. And I know the answer to a lot of these questions, okay?

I already know them, okay? I know them, and I'm giving you a chance to be honest with me, okay? Because you don't want this thing to spiral out of control, okay? No, no, no. Your boyfriend's in here, okay? He's don't want this thing to spiral out of control. No, no, no. Your boyfriend's in here, okay? He's here. He's in here? Mm-hmm.

Okay. All right. Mm-hmm. Do you think that we've not talked to people? No, I know... Listen to me before you say a whole lot. Do not dig yourself up in a bunch of lies, because what's going to happen,

that snowball's going to get so huge, sweetheart lies because what's going to happen that snowballs gonna get so huge sweetheart that it's gonna explode on you and you're never ever gonna dig yourself out of it and you understand me so I want to know okay why why why why did you guys hurt your mom? Okay. Sweetheart, look at me. Look at me. Look at me. I've got kids.

I've been doing this for a long time. And I want you to understand something. Don't do yourself that hard. Don't go down that path, okay? Listen to me for a second. You go down that path, and what's going to happen? What do you think is going to happen if you go down that path? It's not a path to go down.

If anything, I don't tell lies. Okay. Don't sit here and lie to me, because if you do, what's going to happen is it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. You're not going to remember the ones that you've told other people, okay? Other people that I've probably already talked to. You understand that? I understand. Why? Would you like to start from the beginning?

I only want you to start from the beginning, but we'll talk about that here in a minute. And I'm glad you're making that progress, okay? I'm proud of you for that. But the first thing that we need to get out of the way right now is why. That's the biggest thing. You know, you've got friends, you've got friends that love you. Of course I know. You and your mom. Yes. You've got friends that care for you. I know. You know what? They're down there, down the bottom of this hill with that snowball, and they're asking all these questions are asking why yeah help me give them an answer as to why okay you have to give me an answer as to why because they are so concerned about you I know I have a lot of friends in Missouri I know and I would never hurt my mom. Okay, sweetheart. Do you really want to dig yourself?

You're digging yourself deeper, okay? No, seriously, I would never hurt her. Listen to me. Listen to me, okay? I don't play around with that, okay? I'm not going to play around with this, okay? I didn't do anything. Listen to me.

Don't let that snowball get bigger, because that's what you're doing right now, okay? You have a chance. You have's what you're doing right now. You have a chance. You have the opportunity right here and right now. Because once I walk out that door and that opportunity is gone, guess what? It's gone. It's just like when that paper is taken away when you're writing that pencil. You don't have a chance to erase that mistake. Sir, I have a million questions right now. You know what? I'm proud of you for wanting to ask those million questions.

And you know what? We can answer those, okay? Okay. But we gotta get down to the bottom of why. Okay. Okay? The why. And your friends are very, very concerned about you. They all love you.

But guess what? Those friends are standing at the bottom of that hill. I understand. And that snowball is getting ready to crush them because they want to know why. I think I've said things very clearly. You think that it's me? Why do you think that it's me? I have always thought my mom and I are best friends.

Listen to me. Listen to me. Please don't do yourself in this hole. And that's what you're doing. You're still doing it. Okay? Do you not think that we've already talked to some people? Okay?

Do you not think that we've talked to everybody? I'm not going to come in here without having all my things in line. Okay? I want you to understand that. Of course I understand that. We need to get to the why. When we get to the why, then all these other questions I can answer for you, and we can move on with this.

Do you really want me to support your friends? No, of course not. Okay, then why? May I please speak? Well, when we get to the why, this happened? I don't even really know what happened. That's obviously just a very small portion of the interview, but I want to bring up a few things that I didn't get to put in. First of all, at the beginning, he asks her, hey, do you have access to a cell phone, a computer?

And she says, no, no, I don't use a cell phone or computer. And he's like, why not? And she goes, well, my mother was overprotective. She thought I wasn't safe. Now in that interview, immediately within a few minutes, Gypsy's referring to her mother, Dee Dee, in the past tense. My mother was very protective. And now when he tells her, your mother's dead, she's like, what? What? As if she doesn't know. As if she had no idea that her mother's dead. She's lying about not knowing her mother's dead. She refers to her mother in the past tense four minutes into the interview. And then when the cop's like, listen, we know you had something to do with this. She's like, how could you think that? How could you think that? I would never hurt my mother. She's lying, lying, lying. And she even specifically

says, I don't tell lies. But then later on, we hear her in many documentaries and in many interviews say, all I do is lie. It's impossible for me to not lie. I'm going in front of the parole board tomorrow and I'm so used to just telling people what they want to hear and lying to get my way. I really hope that I can manage to not do that with the parole board, right? So it's not a great look. If she had been this horrible victim, if she was trying to get away, if this was just a relief to her that finally her attacker, this person who had tortured her for so many years was gone, you'd think she'd be running into the police's arms saying, yes, I had her killed, but it was my only option.

I had nothing else to do. Like I had to get out of there. I'm sorry. I feel terrible. I wish that I hadn't, but I came to a place where I felt there was no other choice that it was her or me, which she has said that multiple times since.

But there's none of that in this interview. No gypsy talking about the horrible treatment she received at her mother's hands. It's just basically her denying denying denying that she had anything to do with it yeah and I could see the interrogation tactic that's being used in this interview very straightforward you don't want to give them an opportunity to say I did it or I didn't do it you skip right over that first off he tries to soften it by saying I think you're a person. I don't think you're a bad person. I think that I have children. He's trying to get her to open

up to him. And when she tries to go off track is when he puts the bumpers up and says, no, no, no, we're not going there. And he poses the question, why? So he's skipping over the, you did it, your boyfriend did it. Did you do it? Was he involved? Were you involved? He's skipping right over that and getting to the why, because if you can get her to answer that question, if you can get her to say, well, you know, my mom wasn't nice to me, that in and of itself is a mission of involvement. So he's trying to go with that tactic and she's doing different things to kind of divert the conversation and still play up the idea that this is a complete shock to her. And

he's, he's a little bit more aggressive at that point to say, I'll let you speak. You have no problem. You have no problem talking whenever you like, as long as you're answering my question. I don't want to go off on these side quests. I want to hear the why. And unless you're going to talk about that, I on for 30, 40 minutes in an attempt to divert the conversation. So it may look almost like he's being, some of you may say as you're watching this, wow, he's being awful mean to her. This is this young girl. I don't think so. I think he's being very sweet. I'm not saying you, but there will be people who look at this and go, wow, he's being so aggressive. Why is he approaching her like that? It is a strategy that has been proven time and time again to work as far as keeping someone on task and

holding them accountable by saying, hey, I don't think you're a bad person. Just tell me why. That's all I want to know at this point. And then you can reverse engineer it and work backwards. Once they say the reason why, or at least give a start as to why, you can say, okay, well, then what happened? How did we get here to this why? And that's when you start to get some of the specifics where you may uncover some guilt knowledge. I think he's being very balanced and measured with her. He's walking the line of calling her sweetheart, telling her, oh, I'm proud of you. I'm proud that you're ready to talk. But also he's being firm where he's like, okay, yeah, but I need to get you on track

and I need to keep you on track. And I need you to understand for your own good. We already know so much. Lying to me gets you nowhere. Let's just figure this out together kind of thing. But she's not, you know, she's not. And I always, every time he's like, your mother's dead. And she's like, what?

It always gets me because it's like, even if you can't say like, oh, she was Dee Dee's partner in crime. Or even if you don't say, you know that she knows her mother's dead. And so you can see illustrated here. What an amazing little actress she is. So, all right, I'll push back on it without knowing as much as you know about the case. You've researched it. You know this whole script. And there's a lot of people out there who know more than me.

Let me just push back on it for a second. Okay. Is there a world? I always say that you guys come at me for it. Take a drink every time I say I see, I see a situation or a world where this could happen. All right, let's play this out quickly. Cause we got a lot to cover.

Gypsies incentivizing or enticing Nicholas go to John to commit this crime. She's manipulating him. She's not necessarily saying this is what I need you to do, but she's setting up the foundation to basically create an environment where he wants to do it, right? She's trying to manipulate him like she has manipulated others with her mother in years past. So she keeps pushing him. She keeps pushing him. She keeps stoking the fire.

She knows it's getting to that point. We could be looking at a situation where she felt like this was going to happen. And this might be affirmation. Your mom is dead. Those words, your mom is dead. That reaction, there might be some, it might be genuine to a certain degree as far as not necessarily being surprised that she's dead, but the, the finality of it. Your mother, and she referred to her in this interrogation, this little clip we had, as we're best friends. There might have been something in there where she finally gets that confirmation. There's no going back from this.

Your mother, she's gone. So could it be just tears? Could it be acting? For sure. She knew her mother was dead. She let him in. She planned the murder with him. I'm not coming from the perspective of what you know. I don't know any of that. What I'm coming from is the perspective of the people watching this, the

people like me, the novice viewers and listeners who are coming along for this ride with us, who do not know any of that context at this point, they could be watching that video like I am and saying, wow, without knowing the specifics of the murder itself, I could see a situation here where this is the first time she's hearing that the person who raised her, the person who's done everything with her up to this point is dead and you are responsible for it. You contributed to this. She's not going to say that part, but my point being, it could be a combination of acting and genuine feelings of, oh my God, I actually did this. This actually happened. But it's not because now you have that context

and you know that she knows very well her mother's dad. And the fact that as a novice listener, without knowing the context that she let him in, that she planned it, that she was well aware that she went on the run with him. That's what I'm saying. But now knowing that context, isn't it crazy? Because she is such a good actress that if you didn't know that you would

absolutely think this girl's genuinely like shocked and upset. And I think that's kind of the point. We're getting ahead, but did she admit to letting him in? Yeah, of course. Like eventually, yes. We know that that's what happened. Is that a version of it or has she admitted that, yeah, I let him in to go kill my mom? Are you asking me like factually in this case, has it been proven that Gypsy Rose at the time of this police interview knew very well that

her mother was dead? I'm asking you, is it possible that at this point, even though she contributed to every, let's say everything you just said is true. Did she know that her mother was dead or that she basically opened the door to let the wolf in? She knew that her mother was dead. How long had her mom been dead at this point? Not long. It was maybe a couple of days. So days, not just hours. We're talking days.

Yeah. Okay. So at this point, when Gypsy's at the police station, they're in the police station in Kenosha, Wisconsin. They're not in Missouri. They're not in Louisiana. This is where Nicholas Godejohn lived. So he traveled to her house in Missouri.

She let him in. The whole murder happened. And let me just say, Gypsy claims she was not present for the actual stabbing of her mother. But there are some people who believe she was. Well, there you go. And there's, yeah, there's some possible or potential evidence that shows she may have been more involved than she claims. And that's the problem with Gypsy is she lies so much. You don't know what's the truth.

So easily and so well, you can't tell the difference between the truth and fiction. And by the way, I'm not a Gypsy Rose defender. I'm just trying to be the other side of the aisle because I know that just from reading the comments from you guys, I'm not going to be the only person that thinks aisle, because I know that just from reading the comments from you guys, I'm not going to be the only person that thinks this. You just said it. Gypsies said she's was never in the room when it happened. So if we're to believe gypsy Rose,

we could be looking at a world where she let them in, whatever happened in that room, she refused to be a part of it. And so she's assuming her mother's dead based on the fact that she knows she was stabbed. But having this detective bluntly say to her, your mother is dead. That reaction in that moment, was it real? Was it not? You clearly don't think so.

And I think a lot of people will agree with you. Remember that Facebook post that that bitch is dead? The one that actually brought law enforcement to the plant. Gypsy wrote that. That was before. That was before. So June 14th is when that Facebook post goes out. June 15th is when Gypsy and Nicholas go to John are arrested.

And Gypsy said, I wrote that on Facebook so that my mother's body would be discovered and she could have a proper burial. Okay. All right. Well, let's, let's keep going with it. I'm going to keep approaching this from the, there's things that I've heard. Gypsy Rose was everywhere. I obviously know the big bullet points,

but I'm trying to stay objective and go along from the beginning. We had the initial episode about Dee Dee. Now we have this situation where there's an interrogation. We're very early on in this and all these other things are yet to be discovered. So my opinion will change throughout the series, but this is where I'm at right now, where could she be telling the truth? Maybe. Could she be lying based on history, based on the whole episode number one? Absolutely. She could be lying. So that's where I'm at. But the detective

clearly has information. He believes she's lying, which is why he's pushing her so hard. Yeah. There's not a world that exists where I could have anybody play devil's advocate enough to convince me that in that moment when Gypsy Rose was informed by the police officer her mother was dead that she did not know, and yet her reaction would let you know, or make you feel that she didn't know she was hearing it for the first time. That's you knowing everything you know now though. This is, this is like award-winning performance worthy is what I'm saying. And I think people who are informed and educated on the facts, most of them will agree with you. But for people who may be hearing about this case for the first time at this depth,

they'll probably disagree with you at this point or maybe come to a different opinion because they don't know everything after that. Yeah, absolutely. What we're going to focus on this episode, because I do, I want to get into this conversation with you. And next episode, when we actually talk about the murder and talk about how it was planned, oh, it's going to be a good one. That's a different story. That's a completely different story. You are going to be like, wow. Yeah, that's a complete. And then we can revisit this conversation.

We will revisit this, yeah. And it's not going to be, and I told you so, it's okay, now you have the facts. Now you have all the same facts that I do. Yeah, exactly. So, but this episode, we're focusing on the medical part. And some people may be like, why are we focusing on this so hard? Well, it's very important, right? Because the narrative out there very much still is Dee Dee Blanchard made Gypsy sick, which is common in Munchausen by proxy. That happens.

And Fancy was talking to us about another case of a mother that was basically poisoning her son just a little to keep him sick so that he would never leave her, so that he would always be with her. To our knowledge, and from what we can tell, this did not happen with Dee Dee Blanchard, which is why Fancy believes this is more malingering by proxy, as in I'm using the illness of my child to get something, as opposed to mannchausen, whereas I'm making my kid sick to get attention or to benefit somehow from my child being sick. So that's kind of where it leads from. There are still a lot of people that don't believe Gypsy Rose Blanchard had any medical issues at all, and that all of them were fabricated by Dee Dee. So based on the medical records, Fancy Maselli believes that Gypsy Rose Blanchard, had any medical issues at all, and that all of them were fabricated by DeeDee. So based on the medical records, Fancy Maselli believes that Gypsy was actually sick and that

from birth, she had a chromosome disorder that was not identified until many, many years later. But this disorder explains a lot of the health issues that DeeDee claimed Gypsy had. And once again, this is all supported in the medical records. So Fancy, you said that early on in Gypsy's life, the doctors were aware that she had a chromosome disorder. They just didn't have the medical technology of a know-how at that point to identify which one. That did not happen until 2011. But now we do know which chromosome disorder Gypsy had. And according to you, this was

genetic from her father's side. Can you explain a little bit about this disorder and how you know about it and how you know it came from Rod Blanchard? So it's the microdeletion of the 1q to 1.1 chromosome. And it is a genetic disorder. There are a couple breakouts where it doesn't have any reasoning for it, but it is mostly genetic in nature. So in 2011, when they finally identify this deletion, it clears up a lot because this deletion can have, it can have failure to thrive. You have muscle weakness. You have eye problems. You have feeding problems.

You have all the different things that she had along the way. Every single one of those she was predisposed to have based on this micro deletion of the 1Q21Q. The reason that we know it's not from Deedee is because when they do this test, now the first test we had, it came back, it was the karyotype. And it came back as saying, oh, we don't know, we don't think this is a chromosome disorder, we don't have anything. And for years, that was the only piece of paper that Colleen had. Well, this year, when we went to look at it, I talked with an investigator out of Tarrant County,

Texas, who specializes in Munchausen by proxy, works with Dr. Feldman, Dr. Yorker, all of them. And I asked him very specifically, what is the difference between a mom who is in a con artist family that just chose this as her con and a actual mother with Munchausen? And he broke it down for me. It was the first time I understood it because you have to stop calling it Munchausen by proxy or factitious disorder imposed upon another or any of the other weird things that people want to call it because no one understands what any of that is. And there's a very specific reason why we get convictions here in Texas that other states and other counties don't get. And

that's because we put it into terms. It's very simple for a jury to understand. And it comes down to, is it or is it not medical child abuse? And if you've only used those words, medical child abuse, it becomes very clear. Was it necessary or was it not necessary? So then I had Colleen go back in, I said, you know, will you look at that chromosome disorder one more time, because I always said it was something that was going to smack us in the face, that we had been looking at the whole time and just missed. And she's like, but I thought the test came back inconclusive. I said, I know. But I swear to you, Titania told me that she had a test that absolutely 100% proved that she had this chromosome disorder. Will you please go look for it? And she goes, okay. And so she did. And she came back 10 minutes later. And she's like, oh, my God, fancy. You're right. It is this. And that was because we had 30 pages of a 32-page document originally. She found the last two pages in another file tucked away. And this was the microarray that

is a very specialized genetic testing that identified this specifically. And then they actually tested Deedee as well. And it came back as not being from Dee Dee's side. And they said, oh, well, Rod is not available for testing. So we're going to start discussing Gypsy's medical records from the year 2000. And I know we already went to Missouri, but we're going to go back in time a little bit because this is when the medical records really start like picking up. And this is when she still would have been in Louisiana. So it starts on October 31st, 2000. Now this is when Gypsy's going into the doctor and she has, she's about nine years old at this point. You're going to hear Fancy explain this. And she's got complaints of muscle weakness in both legs.

Now, remember, we talked in episode one about how Gypsy was in a wheelchair, you know, not like solidly, but on and off from about the age of five. She's nine years old now, and she's complaining of muscle weakness in her legs. If you look at that document, that's where they do in. It's 1031 of 2000, Dr. Garcia and Dr. Morteza do an EMG. And the complaint is that she has muscle weakness in both legs. They do a nerve conduction for both legs. They say that there's no electrophysiological evidence, neuropathy, radio, you know, all different things, or myopathy causing this. They don't know. They do an entire scan of her spine, her neck, her brain, the whole thing, the MRI of all of it, lumbar to top, you know, all the way. And so they come back

with not muscular dystrophy based on this, but they want to go ahead and still do the biopsy. And this is the reason why the chromosome disorder is important here. Because like I said, she'd always told everybody it was chromosome disorder. It was a chromosome disorder. And muscular dystrophy is a chromosome disorder. It's a genetic chromosome disorder. And so this was one of the first things they went to rule out. Okay. So as you heard, she gets tested. Gypsy gets tested for muscular dystrophy in 2000 when she's nine and that test comes back negative. This is important to remember that when she's in Louisiana in 2000, the muscular dystrophy test comes back negative. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

Okay. That brings us to January 31st of 2001. So just a few months after she had the muscular dystrophy test. In January of 2001, they do a muscle biopsy. Also Dr. Garcia again. And they come back with, it's not muscular dystrophy, but it is type two fiber atrophy. And she also has central nervous system lesions on her spine, but they rule out muscular dystrophy in that, in that instance. And that, that mycel biopsy is the very first time we see the actual age change. Now the date of birth is still correct of 7-27-91, but instead of being listed as 10 years old in that one, she's listed as 12 years old. Wait, they made her older? They made her older in that one for some reason. And I don't know what that would have done. We can't figure out why. Maybe that one was just a typo, but it's where it starts. It starts from this typo or this making her older for some unknown reason. We don't know why. So at that same time, she has the eye surgery for her dystopia that she was born with. And you can see that that's not just a lazy eye.

Can I ask you one thing before we move on to the dystopia? Yes. In your notes here, it says, suggest disuse of legs. Who suggested disuse of legs? It didn't say. It does not say. So they're saying maybe that's the reasoning. But as we find out, it's not the reasoning. They're just basically going, okay, so it's not what we thought it might be, but we still don't know what's causing it. So it could be this disuse of legs, or it could also be the CNS lesions. So we're going to continue to keep looking into this. That's their whole thing. So they weren't suggesting that she not use her

legs as in you should be in a wheelchair. No, no. They were saying that maybe that was what was causing it. Maybe she wasn't doing, walking around very much or whatever, but this is pre her getting the wheelchair fully because at this time she's still using a, she was using a walker kind of thingy to help her walk. And then she had the wheelchair if she got tired. Okay. So you heard Fancy describe this muscle biopsy that they did in January of 2001. And it came back with this type two fiber atrophy plus a central nervous system lesions on spine. So CNS lesions on the spine. When you look at what spinal lesions are and what causes them, well, it's very hard to sort of pin down anything, right? It could be an accident. It could be trauma to the spine,

things like that, or it can be genetic, right? So it's just an abnormal growth of tissue. And like I said, can occur from some form of trauma, but it can also be genetic. Now they couldn't figure out why she had these lesions on her spine, but she did. And you also heard me ask Fancy, well, it says the disuse of legs. And I thought that maybe that was suggesting that Gypsy not use her legs because of the muscle weakness and this and that. But they were saying that maybe her muscle weakness in her legs had been caused by her not using her legs enough because she's in the wheelchair. And I suppose in that situation, if there was no need for Gypsy to actually be in a wheelchair, you could say at that point that her mother was making her sick. Although,

according to Fancy, and there are many other eyewitnesses who do say this, even though Gypsy was technically in a wheelchair from the time she was five, she wasn't always in that wheelchair, right? And we heard this story from family members of Dee Dee's. Dee Dee goes to the store, Gypsy's jumping on the trampoline with the other kids. And Gypsy would sort of be in the wheelchair when everyone was around or when they were on public. But when she's home and things like that, she's not really in the wheelchair. So that likely wasn't the cause of her muscle weakness and these spinal lesions. Okay, so now we move on to April 2nd, 2001, and Gypsy's getting an MRI of her spine. In 2001, they do another thoracic spine, lumbar, cervical spine, and brain MRI again.

Because now they're trying to figure out if the lesions are causing this. They don't know what's going on. And that all comes back negative again. So Garcia puts in there, you know, it's not muscular dystrophy. We don't know what this is, but we still have type 2 atrophy, fibroatrophy. There's something causing this girl's legs to be weakened. There's something causing her feeding problems and all these other things. We just don't know what it is yet. Between 2001 and 2004, there's not really anything happening in the medical records. And, you know, some people might point to that and say, is this really a Montauzan by proxy case when you've got, you know, years at a time where Gypsy's not going to the 2004, I want to talk about two of the doctors involved in Gypsy's life and medical care.

And we're going to focus specifically on these two, Dr. Robert Steele, who became Gypsy's pediatrician in 2005, as well as Dr. Robert Beckerman, who worked at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City. And Beckerman worked out of the hospital's Comprehensive Sleep Disorder Center. But before he moved from New Orleans to Missouri in 2007, he had treated Gypsy Rose for 10 years. And this is according to a 2009 article in Treasures, which was a Children's Mercy publication, a hospital publication. Now, the article states that when DeeDee and Gypsy relocated from the New Orleans area after Katrina, DeeDee knew they were going to have to find new doctors in Missouri, and it was going to be hard to explain the last 14 years of Gypsy's medical history since all of the records had been, quote unquote, lost. We're going to find out that's not necessarily true, that there was a doctor involved in this, allegedly, who had the medical records. And in this publication, DeeDee said, quote, I was asked where I wanted to move. I said,

wherever Gypsy Rose would get the best care. So we moved to Missouri, and that's when I discovered Children's Mercy, end quote. The article goes on to explain that in the weeks after settling in Springfield, Gypsy had several appointments with different specialists at the hospital, but they were so happy to see that their old friend, Dr. Beckerman, was one of them. And Beckerman was happy to see the Blanchers as well. He said, quote, I hadn't seen her for two years, and when I did, it was really special. I was really homesick at that time, and at that moment, it was what I needed. Dee Dee is such a wonderful person. She never complains, and I think that is why Gypsy Rose is so positive. Dee Dee is such a great advocate for her child. Having a child with special needs is not easy, especially going through what they went through.

After Katrina, the medical care regressed dramatically in New Orleans. Gypsy Rose is right where she needs to be getting state-of-the-art care, end quote. Now Gypsy added to this happy reunion by saying, quote, I was so happy to see him, not only because he was my doctor in New Orleans, but because he already knew all about me, end quote. And Dee Dee Blanchard said, quote, we have built great life. We have new friends, a new home, and Gypsy Rose is being taken care of by great doctors. Yes, we miss New Orleans, but we've brought our traditions and culture with us. I feel like we got our happily ever after. End quote.

We also have Dr. Steele, who becomes Gypsy's pediatrician. And he said, quote, Dee Dee was pretty clear that Gypsy had a history of cancer and asthma, some sort of muscular disorder. Dee Dee didn't have the medical records. She said they're gone because it was chaos down in New Orleans after Katrina. So Dee Dee became the sole place for information. Probably the biggest concern I had was the history of cancer. Dee Dee could not give either the diagnosis nor really the length of treatment that she had been on. That was unusual. And to me,

that was a red flag. The question is, at what point do you trust the parent to be accurate with the information? End quote. Which is a good question from Dr. Robert Steele. But as we're going to come to find out, and according to Fancy, who has the medical records and can see these things, Dr. Steele had requested Gypsy Rose's medical history from Louisiana, and he had received it. So he would have known that there was no cancer diagnosis as he was treating Gypsy. And so there's going to be a lot of questions here. But let's start back at January 14, 2004, when Gypsy Rose goes in for a sleep clinic visit. Now, in 2004, she's at a sleep clinic visit. Now, this is with Dr. Beckerman. And I truly believe,

I don't think that Dee Dee did this alone. I do think that there was medical fraud perpetuated, but I don't think it was Didi who perpetuated the medical fraud. I think that was a couple of doctors that helped her out along the way. that being Beckerman, because she started seeing Beckerman when she was four years old. And Beckerman is the one who goes from, he sees her in Louisiana. He moves two years before Katrina to Missouri and they follow to Missouri. And then he leaves right in 2014, 2015, he leaves and goes to Florida. And we start hearing a story about Dee Dee wanting to move to Florida. And we start hearing a story about DeeDee wanting to move to Florida. And so I think that her and Beckerman had some sort of agreement going on. Because Beckerman's notes are always completely contradictory of each other. He never freaking follows up on anything. DeeDee doesn't bring in her machine for the CPAP ever. And he makes excuses for her. He calls them his favorite mother, daughter, and he gives really weird details that a doctor normally would not put in the file. They spent time with him. They went to dinner at his house.

House, yes. All kinds of weird things, yes. And he is who helps them get the house that they're first in when they go to Missouri. So the first house they had was in Aurora and that was provided by the hospital. The hospital actually paid for that. And then she gets the Habitat house and they move out. And during that period of time, she's barely seen doctors at all from 2005 to 2007. There's not a whole lot. So let me ask one question because I found an article from 2009 from the hospital. It's Dee Dee talking and Dr. Beckerman. And he says, I've been Gypsy's doctor for the last 10 years. And they kind of made it seem like Dee Dee and Gypsy are going to the hospital now that they live in Missouri.

And they just walked into the sleep clinic, and they were like, oh, Dr. Beckerman's here. We had no idea. And then he was like, oh, my God, I was so happy to see them. I felt so homesick, and they made me feel better because I hadn't seen them in two years. But what you're saying is kind of, no, he orchestrated their arrival in Missouri.

He was able to help get them the house, which, like you said, was the hospital house. And so there wouldn't be a surprise if they strolled into his office and like, oh, fancy seeing you here kind of thing. Well, little known thing that you don't know is he never stopped seeing her. That's the whole thing. Okay. So when he moved to Missouri, he did not give up his license in Louisiana. And there are still records of him seeing her. And in 2004, he's on a leave of absence. This is where I was going with the sleep clinic visit in 2004.

Beckerman's on a leave of absence. That's when he's in Missouri at this point in time. And he's not there every time she goes. So sometimes he's there, but he's not there this time. And she sees a different doctor in the side of the sleep clinic. And this is where Dee Dee first says, oh, my memory's not good due to this accident I had two years prior. And that becomes something that she does use many times. If she's questioned or she sees someone new, she's always telling them

she's just been in an accident of some sort. This accident did happen. The car accident in New Orleans? Yes, the car accident happened, but it was when much earlier, much, much earlier. So she uses that over and over again as a way when she's seeing a new doctor to maybe in case she tells something and it's wrong, then she can be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the accident. My memory. It's bad. Oh, it's bad. Okay, so it comes back, he talks about that she's only got mild asthma, she's got controlled rhinitis, she's got an unclassified congenital neuromuscular disease. He puts it in there, that he notes this. And he states that Beckerman had suggested she go to this other specialist and he doesn't

really think that the specialist is needed, but he goes ahead and sends her because he said, well, you know, the specialist will then decide if they feel like they need to see her or not. You know, that specialist could do this. And since Beckerman already ordered it, I'm going to go ahead and send you to them anyway. But I personally don't think this is going to help. So this is the first time somebody's telling them, hey, maybe this isn't the right course of action. And it's only because Beckerman isn't there that day. Otherwise, Beckerman's files, like I said, very confusing. So that's why that one in 2004 was one that I noted because, you know, the doctor saying, I don't think it's this, but we'll try it, you know. So this is interesting to me because, and I said it, a lot of it got cut out in these clips because the interview with Fancy was over two hours.

But there was a lot of conversations in between. And I was a skeptic on a lot of this not necessarily because I I truly believe what I'm saying but I'm I want to push Fancy on these because I don't know what her motive is for coming out with this I don't know Fancy I've never met her before so I'm not going to just take everything she says at face value I'm going to question it and be inquisitive so with this when she started talking about this whole I guess I'll call it conspiracy for a lesser way of describing it. But you have Dee Dee who clearly is doing something at minimum malingering, at minimum, right? She's got something going on here.

There's clearly a motive there for doing it financially. They're getting all these other benefits as well. You can see very easily why they would keep up this facade. But then she started talking about physicians, doctors being involved with it as well. And you have to understand, you look at that and you go, okay, where are we going with this? Who else is involved here? What would be the incentive for these doctors? But there was something, and I don't know if you were going to see my reaction It might be a single shot on fancy when she's talking about it

But I was kind of dismissive of what she said with my face Until she started saying that they were like hanging out and you said it as well. They were hanging out having dinners So I left it a little bit more of a believer than I started And I always like to give a gradient of where it could be. It could be on one end where it's just a complete criminal act where these doctors are aware of what's going on and actively contributing to the deception that's taking place. Or it could be somewhere in the middle where this doctor is fond of Gypsy and DeeDee, wants to help them, thinks they're good people, maybe doesn't necessarily dot all their I's, cross all their T's, which is why DD and Gypsy are so willing to go to this person because

they're not a very good doctor. They're not very thorough. So it fits their narrative because they're basically saying, it's almost like an accountant, right? It's like, oh, I have all these deductions and do you need to see my receipts? And the accountant's like, nah, you're good. I trust you. You know what I mean? So it could be there or it could be on the other end of the spectrum where it's just like the doctor is just completely terrible and they just don't know what they're doing.

And this is just an egregious case of malpractice. So I don't know where it is. It could be anywhere in there. I will admit that the fact that these doctors, this doctor in particular, Beckham, how do you say his name? Beckham? Beckerman. Beckerman. That he's out at dinners with them. He's contributing to them getting the house. It could be for a true genuine reason where he just wants to help this family in need and he was bamboozled by them as well. Or it could be what Fancy is suggesting. I just didn't hear enough

to get there at this point. I was even wondering, was it for the hospital? Because, you know, he works at Children's Mercy in Kansas City, and this is a Children's Mercy publication. This 2009 article comes out in, and he's like, Gypsy's getting the best care with the best doctors. Could it be like, okay, bringing Gypsy and Dee Dee to our hospital and then having this for like marketing purposes, this like kind of made for TV movie family unit, right? You've got the single mother and she's self-sacrificing, has devoted her entire life to her sick child. You've got this sick child who has this sweet little voice and she's dressed in princess dresses and she's so kind and sweet and upbeat and happy, even though she's got these horrible medical conditions. And she's like the shining example of what a sick kid

should look like, you know, like hopeful throughout it all. And then on top of that, they're Hurricane Katrina survivors, dude, right? It's like they're so disenfranchised in every single way. And now this perfect little family unit is going to bring a lot of attention to your hospital, your profession. It could be that. And by the way, what type of grants are they getting for all this? Exactly. That's a big thing. It's a big thing. And that could be, and someone might have to look into that, or maybe it's not important for someone to look into, but either way, these are doctors.

They're not dumb people. No, no. The behavior raises some eyebrows, without a doubt. All right. So now they have the sleep clinic visit. Now on February 2nd, 2005, they're going to do a sleep study. So on 2-2-2005, they do the sleep study. It comes back as, yes, she does have breathing problems while she's sleeping.

There is some different things that come back in that. It does show. And there is other times along the way, even in Louisiana, that it is notated that they believe that Gypsy herself is malingering. She's holding saliva in her mouth and she's letting it pool there and they don't know why. And they don't say Dee Dee's doing it. They made certain that they wrote in there that it was Gypsy who they thought was doing it, but they didn't know why. So basically they do the sleep study and they confirm, yes, she does have breathing problems when she sleeps, which confirms that from a medical standpoint,

that she does need that CPAP machine. This is not something that her mother gave her to just, and similar to the feeding tube, right? Because I saw a lot of comments from part one where people were like, listen, I'm a doctor or I'm a nurse, and I can tell you for a fact that doctors don't just operate to put feeding tubes in a child simply because the mother's like she needs it. They will make sure there's a medical need for it. They tried several other things before they did that. And then to further that, that becomes, in my opinion, eventually, maybe she outgrows that failure to thrive kind of thing. And she starts to be able, her digestive system actually starts to catch up on its own, because that is what happens with this chromosome disorder. It delays things. And sometimes things you grow out

of and some other things you still have, right. But that's one of the ones that tend, they tend to grow out of as this failure to thrive, their developmental system, their digestive system, things like that begin to catch up. So when it starts to catch up, she probably didn't use the feeding tube very often, but she continues to have all these mouth problems. So the feeding tube was there in case, okay, well, if we get to a point where she can't eat for a while, or we've got to do this surgery, it's fine for this little tiny little Mickey button to be right here on her stomach. And it's a very outward display. And the other thing about that is if you're not the doctor that placed that, much like people who go to an orthodontist have braces put on their teeth and then other orthodontists are very leery of like taking them off because they don't know the work or how long.

Right. So they'll refuse sometimes. And so it could have easily been doctors just not wanting to take it out. And Gypsy never challenged it because I guarantee you, you know, it was a way to show, look, I've got this Mickey button. I'm really sick. Right. So I think that became part of the con, but when it was placed, it was absolutely medically necessary. And I think it was medically necessary for many of the years of her life for various different reasons and problems that she has, but she probably didn't need it all the time. All right. That's a lot of information. There's more to come. I hope everyone's bearing with us. If you have questions about anything that you want cleared up in the comments, let us know in the comment section. We will both try to answer and I know the fancy will be in there as well,

answering any questions that you guys have. So now we're going into August of 2005, specifically August 23rd, 2005, Katrina hits. Now, after Katrina, as we know, Dee Dee and Gypsy, they end up in Missouri. And this is when Dr. Steele, Dr. Robert Steele, becomes Gypsy's pediatrician. And he's out of the same hospital as Dr. Beckerman. Now, the interesting thing is, you will see that Dr. Steele, and he's been interviewed, I believe it was the prison confessions of Gypsy Rose where he was interviewed, and he said, I didn't have these medical records. They were lost in Katrina. And when he says the medical records, he's speaking specifically of the medical records before 2005,

the Louisiana medical records. He claims he doesn't have them. So when Dee Dee says Gypsy has muscular dystrophy, he goes along with that, even though in the medical records from Louisiana, it says that she was tested for that it was negative. When Dee Dee mentions possible cancer diagnosis, Dr. Steele says, well, it was troubling because she didn't know what kind of cancer or what kind of treatment Gypsy had been under. And yet it still sort of gets like pushed along as if it's true and accurate. And he says this happened because he did not have the medical records. So he only had Dee Dee Blanchard's word to go off of. But according to

Fancy Maselli, and she says this is in the medical records, Dr. Robert Steele requested the medical records from Louisiana on September 23rd, 2005, and he received them. So he had these medical records and it is a full two years before he sends those records to any other doctor. And that doctor, when he finally does send those records two years later, is Dr. Bernard Flasterstein, who is a pediatric neurologist. And we're going to get there, but that's 2007. On 8-23 of 05, Katrina hits. They end up in the Superdome. That's the shaved head. They get airlifted out. And I think Gypsy did go looking for a Missouri doctor. I think they really kind of, there was some things that were happening.

Dee Dee was coming up on certain like bad check charges and other things were happening. And I do think that, you know, there was maybe an incidence where they were getting found out that possibly, you know, they're creating scams. Not necessarily medical fraud because up until this't, there's no medical fraud really, but Katrina happens. She signs this doctor and they airlift her out. Beckerman's on scene, like immediately, boom, he's right there at the emergency room. Like, okay, how did that happen? And Dr. Steele is at the actual emergency room and he becomes her primary care doctor. And so on 9-23, one month later, he requests and he receives the Louisiana records. And he lies about this. Yes. I was just going to ask you that. Yeah. He says DeeDee doesn't have the records. He has to basically only go on what she's telling him because he does not have access to the records because they were lost in Katrina. But you're saying he got them. it was at least 204 pages of information from Tulane. And the biggest record inside of that is the muscles biopsy, the thoracic spine, and all of that, that ruled out muscular dystrophy. Yet he continued to chart it in her chart the entire time, which is medical fraud. And that

is him committing medical fraud, not Did which is medical fraud. And that is him committing medical fraud, not DD committing medical fraud. Listening to what fancy saying, you can only put so much on incompetence and complacency. You can say, listen, these doctors, they've got a lot of patients, they lose files, they get kind of thrown in with the mix of other files. And you have all these things transpiring where they lose files, they get kind of thrown in with the mix of other files. And you have all these things transpiring where they might've, there's, there's things that we might not know that they move locations, that they change practices, all these things where they may come out and say, this is why we didn't do this for two years. Or this is why we had these

files and yet said we didn't. But when you hear fancy talk, this is what I was talking about when I said a lot of people are going to have strong opinions on this in the comments. So where I land on it, I don't know. I don't know how you justify. I don't know how you explain it in any other way other than there is some type of deliberate act taking place. But maybe if we heard from Dr. Steele, we'd feel differently. Even if it's a deliberate act of, I kind of knew what was happening, but I looked the other way. Right. That's still criminal in nature, right? Like if you know what's happening, you're, you're an accomplice, right? If you're contributing to the, to the fraud, that's an issue. And now

I don't know how far we go down this road, but, and I'm not talking about Dr. Steele's, you know, specifically, but are there doctors who may do certain things in order to get payments from insurance companies and things like that? We know that's true. I'm not saying that's the case with Dr. Steele. I don't know the guy. I haven't investigated him personally, but we know that happens all the time. So I don't know the guy. I haven't investigated him personally, but we know that happens all the time. So I don't know what's going on behind closed doors here. Fancy has a strong opinion on it. She supports it with a lot of information. It's up to you to decide where you fall on it. So I was even thinking like, okay, there's, there's times. And Fancy says this a few times throughout the interview where where when doctors would sort of get suspicious and they would say something, the other people like at the hospital or around would be

like, hey, like just, you know, not with these two. All right. They've been through so much. Like this girl does have legitimate medical issues. Like let's just, you know, chill here. We don't need to be raising the alarm. Was this an issue where the doctors like Beckerman and Steele kind of felt that way? Like we like them. We know there's something weird going on here, but also this girl is actually sick, needs medical care. Her mom might just be a hypochondriac. There is so much going on with Katrina and they came from Louisiana and there's a bunch of scattered medical records. Maybe these doctors know what they're talking about, but at the end of the day, none of them expected this to end with the murder of Dede Blanchard. And then when it did,

and then all the networks came calling, Dr. Steele and other doctors like him would get in front of the cameras and be like, I mean, we didn't have the records and all we had to go on was what Dee Dee said. And almost like a, I'm going to try to cover my own ass thing because I don't necessarily feel like I did anything wrong. And it was kind of just like, everyone was on the same page. You just like let these two kind of go along and not make too many waves. But nobody expected that Dee Dee Blanchard was going to be murdered as a result of this. And nobody thought that that was going to be the outcome. And now that it is, we all kind of feel a little foolish and we're all trying to point the fingers and be like, it wasn't me. I didn't

know. I didn't have the medical records. Well, that's the other thing too. The doctors, let's say they are involved in some way or they're just being, whatever the case may be, you don't expect this to happen. And once it does, now there's a magnifying glass on it. Now everything's under a microscope and everyone's being questioned as far as their behaviors and their actions throughout this entire ordeal because Gypsy's going to come out and say, listen, I'm a victim of this.

This was happening all these years. So everyone's going to look into it, including investigators. So that's where if a physician is doing something that maybe they shouldn't be doing, this is where it can come back to bite them in the ass. Let's continue on. And now we're in October of 2005 up to October 6th to be specific. And this is when Gypsy has a physical therapy evaluation. In 2005, there is a physical therapy evaluation done. Her birth date is now 7-27 of 93. So we've upped her, you know, we've aged her down by two years at this point. And Gypsy herself reports she can propel a manual wheelchair about 50 feet.

She states she does not transfer on her own at all. And these are all statements that they said Gypsy made, not DD Gypsy. On the mat, they noted that the patient can come to a long sitting position, but moves as a paraplegic. They also said patient demonstrates full range in bilateral lower extremities. They do say that there is some supination and inversion of the bilateral feet. So that's meaning the feet are not placed correctly, that she demonstrates that there's tightness in her back and her hip flexors. And they think that she needs a new wheelchair with a bilateral ankle foot orthosis and that and she needs a stander so that would be something she could stand up with and she needs some more tests and this is the first time that they start saying again once we get to Missouri you know they

say again that they think she could be malingering some of her range of movement for her legs. So they mean that Gypsy herself is kind of pretending things are worse than they are. Right. This is a time where she could have easily shown the people that she was there that, hey, look, I can move my legs a little bit more than my mom says. You know, like she could have said something right there. And nope, she didn't. She went along with it and continued to do it. And there's even a note about her arguing about whether she can do something or not. All right. So now we come to 2005, right? After this physical therapy sort of exam between that and some point in 2007, everything's pretty quiet medically. So once again, we have a couple year gap where Gypsy and Dee Dee are not constantly

going into the hospital. There's not these big operations or tests happening. And some might say this suggests that Dee Dee didn't suffer from Munchausen by proxy because at this point, she's still getting free stuff. They're still going on trips. They're still doing all this stuff, living the high life. They don't need to be going into the doctors and doing all of this stuff. This kind of supports the malingering conclusion, which is they were in it for the financial gain and to get attention from the community and to see what they could get from the community at large, the people who had, you know, charitable hearts. So at this point, Gypsy's kind of just being a normal kid. From 2005 to 2007, like I

said, there wasn't a whole lot of anything because they were in Aurora. At this point in Aurora, two years in Aurora, Gypsy's pretty much living a normal life. Like you said, she's out in the neighborhood. People see her walking around. Because there's not a ton of medical things happening, she's pretty much just going about life as if she would any other time. And then in April of 2007, they have an audiology consultation. And during this consultation, the doctor, Dr. Wei,

he mentions that there's two dates of birth given for Gypsy in her medical records. And it's odd because none of this makes sense. And this is not the first time it's happened where Gypsy Rose's date of birth is all over the place. They're saying she's one age. They're giving multiple years that she's born. And it seems like the doctors don't make anything of this, even though it's weird, right? Like, as the parent, you might not have her birth certificate. You might not have her medical records. Those things may have been lost in Katrina, but you would certainly remember which year she was born and why did no doctor at any point say to DeeDee, hey, you know, we got like 55 different dates of birth

for your kid in here. Can you let us know which one is accurate so we can make note of that? Yeah, that whole thing was throwing me off. Sometimes I think with these cases, my date of birth has been listed wrong on multiple things. You find out when you run your credit reports, you don't know what these doctors are doing. But this, again, just like what I said a little while ago, as far as Dr. Steele not reporting that he had the files, medical records, you want to believe it's just stupidity, but it gets really hard in totality to think that this is all just one big mistake. It's yeah. I mean, you will, you understand there's a lot going on with gypsy.

She's probably got a ton of medical records because she's had on a quote unquote issue since she was born. There's a lot happening. And yet if you can't nail down something very basic, like the date of birth, then what hope do we have for the rest of this? You know? Yeah, it's not good. If you, yeah, exactly. If you can't get the date of birth right, how are you going to get a cancer diagnosis,

right? It's not a good look. Yes. And we're going to see that Dr. Steele, Gypsy's pediatrician, he said that he did have Gypsy tested for cancer. The test came back normal with no evidence of cancer. He also said there wasn't anything obvious to suggest a muscular disorder, which is why we're going to see that he recommends that Gypsy see Dr. Bernardo Flasterstein, a pediatric neurologist,

in 2007. We're going to talk about Dr. Flasterstein in a second, but before she sees Dr. Flasterstein in 2007, DeeDee's going to have this audiology consultation. She's also going to get dental surgery because she's losing a lot of teeth for a variety of reasons. And so she's going to get free dentures and she's going to have some ear, nose and throat procedures such as having tubes put in her ears

because she's getting recurrent ear infections, things like that. So in 2007, she sees an audiologist and that's Dr. Wee. And there are two different dates listed. There is the original date of 7-27-91. And there's also 7-27-1995. So now we're, you know, we're four years younger and they list her also as 13 years old. So it's all confusing right there. Like, how does this happen? I don't understand the changing birth dates, but it is eventually what catches up to them in 2009 and flags them for fraud. I think I saw this that they, she was, they listed her as 13, but she was really 16. And her weight at that time was like 98 pounds, under 100 pounds.

And the height box on the medical records is left open. So I guess I would say like for a 16-year-old being under 100 pounds, it would be considered, you know, not average weight, right? Am I wrong? No, not really. She was 4'11". And so for somebody as little as she is and with the chromosome disorder she has, if one of the actual things is being underweight and being smaller, so no, she's not malnourished. She's just a very tiny little thing. So it's kind of weird that they give two birthdays, 91 and 95, you said? Yeah. Then they give her age as 13, which wouldn't be accurate for either of those years. Either of those years. Right. Right. And they list some of the surgeries known. So this

is that supposedly Dee Dee says that there have been permanent ear tubes put in and they were placed four years earlier. And she's concerned that these tubes are coming out. I personally, and Colleen backed me up on this. There is not a permanent freaking ear tube that you put in. These ear tubes are designed to be put in. And once they do what they're supposed to do, the ear naturally pushes them out. And so this was one of the things in our podcast that Colleen was like, she had to have like been puncturing her ear or whatever she was doing, like it had to have been. But that was because we didn't know that it was a symptom of the chromosome disorder and we couldn't figure out why she kept having chronic problems. Well, it's still something

she has a problem with today. She still has a hearing problem. Yeah. So the medical records state recurrent ear infection since birth. Tubes had been placed in her ears twice. The first set when she was two years old and then T-tubes placed in 2004, which became blocked, leading to more ear infections and then some ear bleeding. And then the records say that at that point, Gypsy was scheduled for a BMTT placement on May 31st. This is where a small opening would be made in the eardrums. The tubes can be placed into the openings on each side. And this lets air flow behind the eardrums, which would have either the fluid drain or dry up, which is what you want. And then they talked about Gypsy's past medical,

surgical and birth history. And it says Gypsy had been a paraplegic since birth, which caused her to be in a wheelchair. But then later in these same medical records, it says, well, you know, the mom says since birth, but she also doesn't really remember if it was since birth. So they're kind of just at this point, these doctors are sort of just going along with what Dee Dee is saying, because they do not have the records doctors. And the other doctors notate this over and over again. We don't have records. We don't have records. We don't have records. Dr. Steele had them the whole freaking time.

He got them a month after she landed in freaking Missouri. So why do they not have the records, Dr. Steele? I really want to know. And these records also state that Gypsy does have muscular dystrophy. Her mother believes it would be the type limb girdle. And yeah, so they're going, even though she in Louisiana was tested for muscular dystrophy and it came back negative, since they don't have those records, they're just going to put in the medical records. Well, her mom says she has muscular dystrophy. And they're assuming since Dr. Steele is putting it in his notes that it must be true, right? So that's what they're going with. And okay, so in the same episode, or the same doctor's visit, they also state that she wears

bilateral hearing aids. She gets the first miracle ear in Louisiana at five years old. She tells a story about that. And I used to believe that this story was 100% true. And I thought, oh, aha, this is where we see it. This is where Dee Dee is really doing something to make this happen. So we're going to take our last break and then we're going to come back and Fancy's going to continue on with what was going year that Gypsy Rose meets Dr. Bernardo Flasterstein, which if you've seen the documentaries in the docuseries, Dr. Flasterstein has been featured in these. And he seems to feel really bad, to feel really guilty that he missed red flags, that he saw them, but he didn't necessarily pursue them in the way. And act on them. Yeah.

Which, you know, I will say I believe that he is genuinely not feeling great about it. So we're going to take our last break and we'll be right back. We're back. So we'll continue on with the medical history in 2007. Nothing really happens again until about 2007 is where we start seeing, you know, some more stuff start happening. Now they've got the Habitat house. They're there. They've moved the care to Springfield from Kansas City. So it's easier for Dee Dee to get her there because Dee Dee's handicapped at this point too. She's fully disabled at this point. They've recognized her as

fully disabled. And she's collecting social security for herself as well as for Gypsy. And I want to make note, a lot of people ask me about this. Why has Medicaid never charged Gypsy with fraud? And the reason why is because everything that actually was done medically was necessary. So there's nothing for Medicaid to go after her for medical fraud with them because she had all these problems. So she has her dental surgery. Again, DeeDee, at this appointment on 4-26-07, we've got conflicting dates. We've got now 72795 of her birth date, 72794. She's listed as 12 years old. Then she's listed as 13 years old, all in the same freaking document. Like this is where I get with the doctors and I'm like, what in the world was going on with you? Why is this happening?

And so, um, they say that there's an advanced directive on the file, but they can't find it. Again, Dee Dee claims memory loss after a car accident a few months prior. Now, we all know it happened in Louisiana, but it did not happen in Missouri. So here she is again. Oh, I don't know. And they notate at this dental surgery, which I thought was really weird, that there was some purposeful movement of extremities. And I don't know why that's in a dental note, but it is. And that's so weird. So then there is another ear, nose, and throat follow-up in 5-15 of 07. We've got the date of 7-27-95.

This is where the donut lick allergy is mentioned. And it's questioned about her having a sugar allergy, which is not a thing. You can have an intolerance to sugar, you can be diabetic and have, you know, not produce enough insulin to, you know, keep your sugar down. But being allergic to sugar itself, that's not a thing. It's not a thing. So that's where she gets the whole idea of, oh, I ate a cupcake and my mom had all my teeth ripped out. No, that is not what happened. Well, it sounds like some of her teeth fell out from the removal of her salivary glands. It could be some of that, but she was already having very severe problems with her teeth from a very early age,

even before the salivary glands were removed. In fact, the salivary glands were removed because of some of that. They thought that that would help, you know, cut down on the saliva. And if you can see her today, she still produces an excessive amount of saliva. It's why she's always licking her lips like this, you know, because she's always got extra saliva in her mouth. But some of it could have been attributed to removing them, but they were already crumbling and falling apart as her baby teeth. And then it continued on into doing so with her adult teeth. That can be several things. One, there's bad dental hygiene going on. Number two, the water down in Louisiana during that period of time did not have like the fluoride or anything in it. So a lot of them have dental problems down there. Her family all have dental problems. And so it could

be genetic. And then on top of that, again, it's another thing that ties into this chromosome disorder and them having these very soft, crumbly type of rotting teeth. And they were rotting out of her head when they were removed. They were not healthy teeth that her mother just had yanked out because they were putting some aura gel down there. No, that's not what was happening. No. That is what Dede, that is what Gypsy claimed, Derek, by the way, that she didn't need to have her salivary glands removed, that they had removed her glands due to excessive, excessive saliva production, drooling, and that she wasn't having any of those issues. And what would happen is that Dee Dee

would put Orogel on her gums and on her teeth and in her mouth before they went to the doctor so that she would be drooling. To make her drool more? Yeah. Yes. That wasn't the case. That was not the case. How do we know that for certain? Because of the other notes from other doctors and what was happening with her teeth. They tried other things. They tried Botox for many years. That didn't work. They tried doing some other things as well as with like her eye surgeries. They tried all the other things first. Like they tried patching it. They tried wearing glasses, not wearing glasses, all the different things. So these doctors were doing the right things all the way along.

And then they would decide, okay, well, none of that worked. So let's take this measure to go ahead and surgically operate on whatever it is. Well, my thing is though, like you have a situation here where we've proven, as we talked about the history, where there has been issues, actual physical issues in most cases where in the beginning, it seemed like Dee Dee would just do certain things to maybe embellish it to get Gypsy what she wanted, right? Isn't it possible that two things could be true where all of these complications that you're talking about due to actual issues are happening, but to embellish those issues, to make it a bigger thing than it is, DD stone or gel on her gums to enhance the drooling. I mean, we can't say for certain that didn't happen. Well, I can't say for certain it didn't happen, but I can say for certain that

the doctors kept checking for those things. Like or gel and stuff on her gums? Yes. Well, they were looking for what were the causes, you know, and they were finding what the causes were. They found their causes and no one in there ever indicates, oh my goodness, I think the mother might be putting orange gel on there because that's going to only be a temporary thing. That's not going to be something that just rots your teeth out from the inside out. So even if she was putting it there, so there's extra saliva in one moment, they did all the tests to prove that it wasn't just occasionally occurring or it wasn't something that the mother was manipulating. It was happening. Again, I still think that most of the embellishment was the two main things of cancer and muscular dystrophy. And again, it was only on the outside to get financial gain. There is no indication anywhere in here, not once, that the mother is doing anything. The only time they mention this is when she goes to see Dr. Flasterstein and he gets the records from, he does get the records as well from Louisiana. And that's where he knows that muscular dystrophy has been

ruled out. So he doesn't understand why it's still being charted. And the mother is saying this. And that's when he says, well, maybe it is Munchausen by proxy. Maybe that's what we need to figure out. This was 2007, right? Yeah, that's in 2007. So we're still in 2007 at the ENT, the donut lick allergy. And then again, they say that she has reflexes despite the fact that she's supposed to have paraplegia. Okay. I want to stop for a second and reset the deck because we're over two hours into this

episode and we're really hammering home the point of everything involving Gypsy Rose and her medical conditions or lack thereof, right? And you guys saw in that clip, he pushed back on Fancy a little bit because we know that there are going to be people who feel one way about this and others who feel a different way. And the reason why everything we're talking about now with Fancy is so important to go over every little detail as far as the conditions that Gypsy was experiencing is because we all know why we're here. The title of the episode tells you it's about Dee Dee Blanchard and her murder. And what this all, right, all this information that we're talking about, what this

sets the table for is a potential motive for the prosecution, but also a potential defense for Gypsy and Nicholas Godejohn. So we really have to go through it all because we have to figure out whether or not we feel that Gypsy was in fact sick and she had this condition, this chromosome disorder condition known as microdeletion 1Q21.1, right? Which would have explained a lot of these symptoms that she was being treated for, therefore making Didi's care and her attention to them warranted. Or is this a situation where it's Munchausen syndrome by proxy and she's creating these issues in order to garner some type of

sympathy and therefore financial gain and housing and, and all these other things. This right here is the whole crossroad in this case, because as we continue on into the series and we go on into the murder and the specifics of the murder, it's all going to come back to this because at the end of the day, if you believe that Gypsy was actually sick, then you're probably going to feel like Gypsy should still be in prison. But if you feel like Gypsy was being abused and was being taken advantage of, and her mother was at the root of all of these issues, then you may feel completely different about

the murder and feel that she served enough time or maybe shouldn't have served time at all. It really does remind me of the Menendez series. But with this, we have a lot of documentation regarding the medical history that we can overview and kind of dissect where with the Menendez brothers, it was more just accounts from other people in their life. And the pictures. we saw the pictures. Yes, the pictures, but you have a lot here to go over. So I don't know how everyone's feeling at this point, but this can, this can seem like we're really getting into the weeds, but it's absolutely necessary because this is everything. This will, this will dictate a lot of your final opinions on this case. So now we're in the summer of 2007, August of 2007, when Gypsy goes in to see Dr. Flasterstein, who is a pediatric neurologist. And Dr. Flasterstein said that although Dee Dee told him about multiple medical conditions that Gypsy had, she wasn't able to give him details about these conditions. So he basically ordered a whole new series of tests, including an MRI of Gypsy's spine and

brain, which we know she's already had these before. And those tests came back normal as they did before. Her muscles and her muscle strength were normal. She did not have cerebral palsy, and he knew that Gypsy should be able to walk around and move with no issues. Dr. Flasterstein also claims that while Gypsy was with him in his office, he told her, hey, based on these tests, you can stand up. You can get out of your wheelchair. And so Gypsy did this in front of him, And then Dr. Flasterstein said that Dee Dee became upset when this happened. She stormed out of the room. And at that point, he suspected that Dee Dee suffered from Munchausen by proxy. This was in 2007.

And this is when Dr. Flasterstein writes a letter to Dr. Steele, who's Gypsy's pediatrician, who, remember, has had her medical records for two years by this point. And he's like, hey, something's going on here. In 821 of 07, and I think he was she was seen one time before this, Flasterstein sends this letter to Steele. And the first line is, okay, no, this is the first one. So 821 of-07, letter from Flasterstein to Steele. First line, the mother is not a good historian. Her birth date is 7-27-93. She's 14 years old listed in this. And the complaint is muscular dystrophy and epilepsy. So there's something listed about a paternal brother that has mental problems. That's not true. Um,

there is a maternal grandmother who has, um, I never know how to say that it's like Sherco Marie tooth. So it's, it's, it's like, um, it's, it's something that, that is likened to French people and their teeth being this problem, um, causes nerve problems. It can cause hemophilia. It can also cause difficulty walking. So that could have been a reasoning for the problems, but it comes back that, you know, that's only the maternal grandmother and Gypsy doesn't have that. So they do some neuro exams and they, again, do show diffused hypotonia, but unusual distribution of her weakness. So again, there is a reason. He just doesn't know why there's a reason. So he goes ahead and he orders exactly the same thing, MRIs of the spine, MRIs of the brain, and an EEG. So on 9-24, he does

that. He does an MRI with contrast of the brain, the cervical, the thoracic, and the lumbar spine. And he says that there's no intracranial abnormality. And in his notes here, he says that the MRIs Gypsy Rose does not have a muscular dystrophy. And so this is sent to Dr. Steele. Dr. Steele sees this, does absolutely nothing. She never goes back to Flasterstein. Flasterstein says in Mommy Dead and dearest that he tried to talk to other doctors about this because he was concerned and he was told by hospital staff and other doctors not to report it even though he is a mandated reporter he should have reported it he didn't because they told him that these were a special pair and they needed to be handled with kid gloves and nobody was going to believe him. And it takes Dr. Steele another two years. Supposedly he states that he's the one who called it into DCFS. I could not find that information. And the HBO people notated in that

letter from Rod, from them to Christie and Rod, that they could not find confirmation that he did. And in the actual report, they state that it was an anonymous woman caller. So he calls it in in 2009. They get flagged in 2009 at the Springfield, at the Springfield location. And immediately, Dr. Beckerman and Dr. Steele move her care back to Kansas City at this point. And so from 2009 on is when she's seeing the Dr. Le Poshon, who actually identifies the microdeletion. So he's driving up there and everything is going, you know, they wanted, the reason that they left that hospital is first of all, the hospital sends out, you know, they wanted, the reason that they left that hospital is first of all, the hospital sends out, you know, the CPS comes to the door, two officers, two CPS workers,

they talk to Gypsy, they talk to DeeDee, they look around the house. It does seem that DeeDee, they note that it does seem that Gypsy has some cognitive issues. They were able to identify that she was over the age of 18. Not only did she have an ID that had her age over the age of 18, her original birth certificate was presented to them to show that she was over the age of 18. They asked her if she's okay. Does she feel safe? She says, fine. They say, do you want to leave? She says no. And they closed the case because they're not able to do anything because she's an adult. So if he called it in in 2007, when he first got this information from Dr. Fasterstein,

they could maybe have figured it out and helped her at that point if it was true. But he doesn't. You know, he waits until she's over the age of 18 and then he calls it in. And then CPS is like, well, we're sorry, we can't do anything. And at that time, then the hospital wants guardianship papers. They realize that Gypsy's over the age of 18. They do not want a power of attorney, which is what GD tried to give them. So the hospital says, nope, not good enough.

We don't want a power of attorney. We actually want the guardianship from an actual court mandating it. D.D. says, no, I'm not going to do that. And Dr. Steele and Dr. Beckerman then move her care to Kansas City. All right. So why was she not being cared for in Kansas City at that time? And she was in Springfield because Dr. Steele and Dr. Beckerman were both in Kansas City, right? Right.

But they also had offices in Springfield as well. So they had dual hospitals and things like that that they can have privileges at. And it was easier for her to be seen in Springfield because that's where she lived. Kansas City is about two hours away. So they're basically like, all right, people here in Springfield are getting a little sauce. Let's just get out of town. Okay. Then they send her to Dr. Le Pachon.

Dr. Le Pachon starts talking about, she's got all these erroneous things. I'd like to do more testing. I'd like to do more testing. And they do some other things and it comes back inconclusive, inconclusive. They can't figure it out. She's treating the epilepsy.

She's treating the different things. And we do not know one way or another whether Gypsy actually has epilepsy or not. We do not know. I believed her when she told me that she did not. And, you know, because there were times where her seizure medications were off, but there are also times where the seizure medications are not off. Okay. So we have gotten to a point now where we're at around the 2009 year. Now I want to go back a little bit and talk about this CPS visit that Fancy referred to. And how did this CPS visit get triggered? Well, Dr. Steele says he called because he was starting to get suspicious. And as Fancy said, and this is in the records, it was recorded that it was an anonymous woman who called.

So maybe Dr. Steele had someone call for him. Maybe it was someone in his office. Who knows? Either way, someone at that hospital was like, what's happening? There's something odd happening. CPS shows up. As Fancy states, by this point, Gypsy's 18 years old. She's legally an adult. So this isn't really a CPS kind of issue, right?

They knew that she was 18. And as Fancy said, her legitimate birth certificate, which got lost in Katrina, was presented to the police and the CPS agents at the time of this visit showing she was 18. And they talked to her and they're like, hey, you're 18. So are you good? You know, we can't really like do much, but we can ask you if you're okay. Gypsy knew how old she was, is what I'm trying to say. Gypsy knew, and we're going to get into it a lot in the next episode. The next episode is going to be a wild ride. Okay. But Gypsy knew how old she was. And so when she's sitting in that police station and they're like, oh, how old are you? And she says,

19. She knew very well she wasn't 19. She knew that she was 23. So this is kind of going along the lines of, okay, these people are asking you, do you need help? Do you need out? And she's like, nope, I'm good. I'm good. All settled over here. She could have said, yes, I do need help. I do need out. My mother's trapping me. She's forcing me to be in this wheelchair. This bitch is shaving my head every other day. Get me the hell out of here. But she's like, no, I'm good. And some people can say, okay, this is like a Stockholm syndrome thing. Of course. Of course. And that could be the case. It could be the case, right? But we don't know if it was or not. And that's kind of what we're trying to determine here. I'm writing all these notes and I'm sitting here saying, what do we have here?

It's never just black and white. It's not. It would be more nice if it was. When you're talking about the percentage of guilt, I can promise you that in most cases, including this one, it's not going to be 100% to zero. For some people who are extreme, they might say, no, Didi was the adult. Gypsy was the child. It's not the way it works. It evolves as they get older and the children know right from wrong and their ability to go along with it.

And they're presented with opportunities to get out of it. So this is very important. And you do ask the question, yeah, why didn't Gypsy say something at the time? But I could easily combat that and debate anyone on that by saying, listen, this is all she knows. This is the woman she loves being her mother. And she didn't realize at that moment, even though there was something wrong, she didn't realize the significance of it and that there was hope for her.

So therefore, in her mind, nothing was wrong. She was enjoying the way life was because that's what she was programmed and conditioned to believe. And maybe that's all she knew. Yeah. That's all she knew. And so in that point, she's still a victim. She's been manipulated and brainwashed, but she's, she's a victim. is such a prisoner that you orchestrate your mother's murder. What changes in that time?

And what we're going to pose to you that changed is that Gypsy, as an adult, now she wants to start living her own life. She wants to start having some independence. She wants to start dating. She's getting sexual. She's got things going on that she wants to take part in. And her mother is like, nah, slow your roll. So Fancy posed this. And I don't know if we're going to be able to put that part of this interview in, at least not in this episode, because it's so long already. But she said, if you raise your child their whole lives where they get everything they want, especially if they're a sick kid, right? Because we know if Dee Dee genuinely thought that Gypsy was not going to live a fulfilled life, that she was going to die young, et cetera, et cetera, she's going to give her everything so that you can have as fulfilled a life as possible in the short amount of time you have. When that child's never told no,

given everything she wants, trips to Disneyland, everyone around her wants to just do everything for her because they feel bad for her. And then there comes a time where that child is told no. And that's when the child decides they're no longer happy with their life and they want to kill you. Is it abuse? Because at some point, Gypsy realized, like, I don't like what's happening here. But what triggered her to not like what was happening there? And if it was her mother preventing her from living a sort of adult, independent, sexually free life that Gypsy wanted to, can you say that she was abused or can you just say that Gypsy wasn't getting to do what she wanted to do for the first time ever? And so she took out what she believed was the obstacle to that yeah there there was a

a good conversation that happened between the three of us regarding that and the potential motives and as you mentioned we're really diving into the weeds on the medical stuff here but this interview with fancy was long and we like you said we won't we won't include all of it in this episode because there is more to talk about on that end of it as far as if Gypsy is involved in the murder more than some people believe, why? What would be her motive behind it? Why then? Why then? Yeah, why then?

And we talked about some financial elements of it as well. And there's some good discussion there. So we are rounding the bend here to finish up. This is a short episode. We apologize. Yes. I'm sorry. We hardly hadn't talked about anything.

It's old school crime weekly. I mean, listen, if you remember back in the day, three and a half hour episodes were like the norm. Dude, on a crime weekly recording day, I would just mark off like six to seven hours. Yeah. It really was. Because we would have side conversations too. But the point of the matter is we're finishing up here. We're going from 2009 to 2011, right? Not

much is happening. Once again, between 2009 and 2011, this is the third time where we're going to have a few years gap in any like extreme or significant medical history. So from 2009 to 2011, nothing really big happens. It's just, you know, normal doctor visits. She has some dental things. She's got some eye things that are done again, you know, and they tell her that they can no longer fix the eye any further. So this is the last one they're going to do. And in 2011, in the beginning of 2011, 131.11, Didi goes to see, you know, she takes Gypsy to see Dr. Le Pichon. Dr. Le Pichon says, I'd really like to do some additional testing that could maybe give us some real insight into a larger problem. Because I just feel like there's something we're missing. And Didi says, well, I'm not really interested in really pursuing it much further than that.

She's stable right now, but I'll let you go ahead and run the test. So that's when the test is done. Then they call DeeDee in to be tested as well because they find something and they're like, okay, we want to verify this. DeeDee takes the test. They come back with the test and the microarray, which is the more complex one that goes, it's very, it tests for very rare disorders,

comes back and identifies this rare disorder. And now they have an actual reason for everything that they thought they didn't have reasons for before. So at that point, Munchausen by proxy is ruled out because if the only reason for they identify it as Munchausen by proxy, one of the other factors besides the etiology is that there can be no physical or biological reason for these things to be happening to the child. And in 2011, they prove that there is a biological genetic reason. And so it gives credence to the fact that this is not Munchausen by proxy. Again, it would be malingering at this point. And again, in 2011,

once this happens, they're notified. DeeDee again tells them, I'm not really interested in seeking out anything else. I'm happy my daughter's stable. Thank you for finding this. It gives us some hope, you know, very much so. But it's very hard for me to drive down here to Kansas City anymore because she was getting very, very sick, you know, and so she only goes to Kansas City for just basic things throughout that. They do still see Dr. Lepashan, but they're not interested in going any further in identifying anything else because they have their answer. And then in 2011, again, the hospital goes, oh, wait a minute, we think she's over the age of 18. And then nothing. Like they just stop going. They only see very specific doctors after that. So you would say that the fact that Dr.

LaPouchon, right? Did I say that right? LaPouchon, yeah. Yep. He says, come on in. I want to do some additional testing. And DeeDee's like, you know what? Gypsy's been good for a few years. We really, we're okay. Like, let's just ride this wave. That's a sign that she doesn't have Munchausen by proxy because if she did, she'd want more testing. She'd want more things to be wrong or to them to find more things. Okay. And this is where Gypsy starts saying that her mother, you know, her mother was going to seek out a thing to find out why her vocal cords weren't working properly. That's a lie.

That's, there's none of that. None of that was happening. She was there. She knew why her vocal cords were, were a problem because she knew the symptoms of the freaking chromosome disorder at this point. So she's saying that that's what caused her to want to do it in 2015 is that her mother was going to go make her have another test. And this time she wasn't going to, she wasn't going to put her under anesthesia because,

oh, you're a big girl now. You can, you don't need anesthesia. None of that happened. In the medical records, you can see that the mother is saying we're good. Yeah. Okay. And there's nothing, there's no test after that. Unless, unless for some reason they move to another facility that I don't have and they kept those from me, there is nothing going on at this point in time. They are still raising money to go to medical conferences and things, but those medical conferences are the ways that they ended up getting to go to Disneyland and on other trips. Okay. So basically this is the whole sort of crux of the theory that in 2011, Gypsy Rose gets diagnosed with this chromosome disorder, which explains many, if not all of her medical issues

that she's had since birth. Dee Dee's like, thanks. I'm glad we have an understanding. Gypsy's stable right now. She's doing fine. We don't need to do a bunch of other testing. We're cool. And then they kind of stay away from the doctors and the hospitals and they just continue sort of, you know, being in the public eye as far as medical conferences and getting free stuff, but they're not all up in the doctors, which Fancy's argument is if DeeDee had Munchausen by proxy, she would use this chromosome disorder as an entryway into like, okay, well now we need to run more tests and, you know, we can actually use this. Oh, wow. Not only muscular dystrophy, not only cancer, but now she's got some chromosome disorder. And honestly, I've this whole episode, especially in this interview, which you guys aren't seeing a ton

of it. I'm pushing back. I'm pushing back. I'm pushing back I agree with her here as far as her opinion on this You know what the best thing would be for someone who's an offender of munchausen syndrome by proxy That's a that's a that's a huge win that's a gift that fell into your lap Yeah, it's like like here we go now i got something i can really sink my teeth into let's start and i don't even have to do the work into making her sick it's just here but if it's true and i say that if if it's true dd has this opportunity to latch on to something that may open up a whole new set of doors and says no i'm good i mean

especially if it's like rare, you know, she can be like, oh, now you can study gypsy and we can be in the medical journals and we can get attention and accolades that way. And she's going to really think about how she can use that as a springboard to have a different platform. And it validates everything that's happened in years past. So it is something where if you're, if you're riding the line and you're trying to stay objective and impartial throughout this whole thing, fancy definitely has a passion for this. There's no doubt about it. You can't. And I, and I like fancy. I think she's a very good interviewer. She knows her stuff, very intelligent, but she's obviously

on one side here. There's no, she wouldn't dispute that she has made up her mind and that's it. So some of the things she says, I, you have to understand that it could be coming from a place where she's trying to prove a point, her point, this right here. If you're on,

if you're on team Munchausen syndrome by proxy, this doesn't align with that. And that's what she's describing. And I have to agree with her. I agree. And we are now at's describing. And I have to agree with her. I agree. And we are now at what the 17 hour mark for this episode. So I'm going to wrap this up. We will wrap this up, but I will ask anybody who's watching or listening, leave us a comment.

If you have medical experience, if you're aware of this, uh, this chromosome disorder, if you have some, something in your head where you're familiar with this chromosome disorder, if you have something in your head where you're familiar with Munchausen by proxy and you're like, no, actually Munchausen by proxy would align with this or it would align with that, let us know your opinions because we want all of it, right? We want to open the lens as wide as possible to let in as everything we can so we can examine it all. And I mean, basically, just generally, what do you think about this episode? What do you think about these medical conditions, this medical history? Does this seem consistent with a child who's a victim of Munchausen by proxy,

or does it seem consistent with a sick kid who maybe didn't come from the best family with the best morals or values? And this family saw an opportunity, a cash cow, basically. So yeah, she can get a good life. She's sick already, so she can get the stuff she wants, and we can get the stuff we want through her. There is another angle here, too, that Didi saw her daughter was sick And felt that it wasn't anything for her

Because Fancy made this point Numerous times in her interview This wasn't Didi didn't benefit from this In her opinion This isn't what I'm saying Gypsy was the one who got the Disney trips And got to meet her idols

And got to have This was again I'm just relaying what Fancy said And that this was more for Gypsy Than it was for Deedee. And there may be some people out there that believe Deedee was skirting the line in order to get her daughter the best medical attention she could. And we have to ask yourself, what would you do if it was your daughter or your son? How far would you go to make sure they got what they needed? I suppose you're right, even especially if you came from, you know, a level of poverty, honestly, like like Didi did as a single mother.

And, you know, a lot of people also wanted us to know in part one in the comments, it wasn't like Rod Blanchard just was like, here's money. I'm giving you child support. That's right. Didi had to bring him to court to get that child support. And we all know. Well, maybe we all don't know, but we should know that that's not always a speedy process. So yeah, she's strapped for money. She knows that families like hers and kids like hers don't always get the top of the line medical care. And maybe she just wanted a better life for Gypsy. However, I will say there's no perfect

victim because there's no perfect human. So what we have to really keep in mind here is I personally don't think that Gypsy Rose or her mother, Dee Dee, were these like wholesome, good people in any way, shape, or form. Did they have good intentions? Did they ever have good? Yeah, I'm sure from time to time. However, when you're raised in like a toxic environment, you become toxic. And so was this Didi's fault or was it her mom's fault? Was it Didi's mom's fault or was it Didi's mom's mom's fault? You know, you can keep going the fruit of the poisonous tree and all that and kind of, you know, look at the background as we have with people like Casey Anthony with Scott Peterson. But we don't look at Casey Anthony and Scott Peterson and say,

oh, well, you're not to blame because of where you came from or what happened to you. We understand that as adults, they had accountability for what they did. And even though Gypsy Rose doesn't always present as an adult, she is and she was when her mother was murdered so we need to remember that yeah and we we had a i wouldn't say it was a debate but i do i'll throw this question out there as well the three of us and you guys corrected me pretty much off the rip but i had asked the question you know i was looking up the definition on uh online and we could see that or i could i could see that munchausen syndrome by proxy, this is a definition on it, is quote, a mental illness in the form of child abuse. The caretaker of the child,

most often the mother either makes up false symptoms or causes real symptoms to make it look like the child is sick. And I posed the question to you guys very early on in the interview, wouldn't Dee Dee stating that her daughter has cancer when she doesn't, and then shaving her head be a form of Munchausen syndrome by proxy and fancy pushed back on it hard as well. And you, and you tend to agree with her, but I,

but I just threw that out there because I think some people may say, yeah, that is Munchausen by proxy. So, and, and fancy is like, nope, it's malingering.

That's where we're at on this. It's malingering. That's where we're at on this. It's malingering. So there's so much to discuss. Because it comes down to the motive for why you're doing it. If the motive sense in this, in this case, the motive was to get free shit. So it's more like you guys are con artists, you Yeah. She wasn't hurting her by shaving her head. And there could have very well been a conversation where it's like, yeah, we're going to shave your head, but, like, you're going to get to go to Disneyland. So, like, what do you think? And listen, once again, does that mean it's not child abuse? Does that mean it's not, like, kind of messed up?

Because Gypsy's, like, you know, nine years old or ten years old or whatever. There's definitely a form of child abuse here. There's no— A hundred percent percent we said that episode one i mean anyone who walks away from this saying nothing happened here dd was just doing everything the right way and simply because gypsy is a child and i don't think she can consent or really understand the enormity of the situation like if you're if you're a kid and someone's like if you do this you're gonna get to do this you and someone's like, if you do this, you're going to get to do this. You're going to be like, hell yeah, let's do that shit, man. I don't care.

You're not understanding what it means. You don't even understand what the impact is on people around you. You're just doing a, to get B. Yeah. I roll around in the chair for a little bit and I get a free trip to Disney world. Sign me up. Yeah. And like I said, I would, I would argue with anybody who wants to push back and be like, oh, well, this is, you know, child actors are also being kind of abused in a way because they don't really understand the life that they're signing up for. And their parents promise them, you know, fame and fortune and this, this and that. And they're like, yeah, that sounds great. Not understanding the implications and what they're giving up. Yeah.

No, it's a lot. It's a lot. And we got a lot more to cover. This is going to be a long series. So buckle up. Like Stephanie said, I said, buckle up duckies. I don't know why.

Weigh in in the comments down below. Let us know what you think about everything we covered tonight. And as Stephanie said, if you're in the medical profession, if you have some expertise with this way in down below, a lot of people will start liking your comment. It'll move it up to the top. And if it's something that's truly significant, we will pin it because we're going to go forth on this one. We're going to definitely go back and forth on this. We're trying to present both sides of the argument. You may not agree with

everything you hear. Don't shoot the messenger. We're going to cover it. There's one other thing I wanted to say before we go. Thank you for all the love on part one of this. Thank you for the engagement on the Asia degree episode as well. Everyone's coming over there, listening, watching, sharing that story as well. We have a lot of people coming around into what we're talking about here. If you haven't already, please like comment and most importantly, subscribe and turn on your notifications. So you're and share and share. So you're notified as soon as we drop the next episode, whether that's going to be another part of this series or crime weekly news. Any other final words before I take

this one out? No, thank you guys so much for being here. Stay tuned next week. It's going to be a crazy ride. That's right. Stay safe out there. See you soon. Good night. Bye.