Crime Weekly - S3 Ep247: Dee Dee Blanchard: Screaming for Gypsy (Part 5)

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

A small, quiet town in Missouri. A devoted mother caring for her chronically ill daughter. A story of love, sacrifice, and survival. Or so it seemed. But behind closed doors, beneath the layers of sympathy and kindness, there was a dark secret waiting to be uncovered. For nearly two decades Dee Dee Blanchard told the world that her daughter, Gypsy Rose, was dying. Leukemia, muscular dystrophy, seizures, vision and hearing issues, the list of illnesses and medical concerns was endless. Gypsy, a seemingly happy little girl with a huge smile, was bound to a wheelchair, fed through a tube, and showered with the attention and support of everyone around her, but no one really knew the horrifying truth. It seemed that Gypsy was perfectly healthy. She could walk. She didn't need a wheelchair to get around, and it appeared that she was being kept a prisoner in her own body, in her own home, by her own mother. The story goes that years of abuse, manipulation, and lies built up until they all came crashing down in the most unthinkable way: Murder. On the night of June 14, 2015, Dee Dee Blanchard was found stabbed to death in her home, and the prime suspect? Dee-Dee's innocent, smiling, happy, and allegedly disabled daughter, along with the man that Gypsy had been having a very adult relationship with. But nothing about this case is as it appears to be. This is the story of Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping! 2. SimpliSafe.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 60% off any new system with the Select Professional Monitoring Plan! 3. The Silver Linings Handbook - Join Jayson Blair while he hosts fascinating conversations with people from all walks of life! If you enjoy true crime but are looking for something different, check out The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts! 4. ShopBeam.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get up to 50% off! 5. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 25% off site-wide and two FREE Dream Pillows! 

Bettering your business takes working with the best. With the James Hardy Alliance, you gain access to leads, training, networking, and support from the number one brand of siding in North America. Achieve new levels of success by joining the James Hardy Alliance today. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are jumping into part five of the Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard case. We obviously took a break last week because we had Dr. Michael Fabian on,

and we kind of took a break in the timeline, but we're getting back into that timeline now. We're picking back up with the rest of the messages between Gypsy Rose Blanchard and Nicholas Godejohn in the week leading up to her mother's murder. But before we get into that, because it's going to be salacious. Oh yeah. Do you have anything to say? Yes. And you know, you know, I do. I think what we did with the first part of this series, the first four parts is we answered the question or gave our opinions on the question. Do we believe Gypsy Rose was abused or not? That's,

I mean, there's two big questions here. Do we think that Gypsy Rose was abused? Do we think that Dee Dee was an abuser? And then also now we're transitioning to the second question, which I posed in episode one, which is what do we think about the murder itself? Was Gypsy Rose responsible for this murder? Did she get enough time? And also kind of like, did she seem, you know, next week we're going to listen to some parts

of Gypsy's police interview and Nicholas Cotijohn's police interview. So when she's telling the police how she feels about what happened and the way things went down and things like that, does it seem consistent with the way she's behaving with Nicholas Godejohn as she talks about the planning of her mother's murder? Yeah. And we talked this week earlier about in Crime Weekly News, it kind of was the theme of the episode, even though it wasn't intended to be that way, which is the crimes that are committed and the sentencings that are handed out. Are they appropriate? And it's interesting that later this week, you know, we were talking about Menendez and these individuals from North Carolina who committed this home invasion.

Now we're talking back about Gypsy Rose and how the sentencing works. You have Nicholas Goda John who was given life without parole. You have Gypsy Rose who took a deal, got 10 years, only served eight. So very different situation there. Two different roads. Which like, no spoiler alert, that ain't enough time. I agree. I agree. I agree. And that's why we disagreed on the other side of this. That's why I think it's great that we can disagree on certain elements of it, but still agree on others. So I think that's important with this case. It's not like our country is right now, where if you're red, you're red. And if you're blue, you're blue, no matter what it is. You can disagree on certain factors and still universally agree on the major component, the big element

here. So we're going to get into all that. We got plenty to cover. But yes, my quick plug, I've been wearing these hats for a little over a year now. I put it on my social media. Many of you have requested that we add it to the website. My reason for not doing it is they're not the cheapest hats. They're very high quality. It's actual leather. So I didn't know if we wanted to go there. I just got them for myself. I bought like 30 of them. So you guys requested it enough. Happy to report that currently on the criminal coffee website, we have this exact hat and we have two other color variants of it. Uh, if you want to go check it out, you can very limited quantities on it right now. If it does well, I'll order more, but it's going to take a while to get them in because like

I said, these leather patches, it's real leather. They're kind of branded with our criminal coffee, fingerprint coffee bean and our, you know, the criminal coffee name. So they're not that easy to make. It's not like just a digital print, very high quality. My favorite hats by far. I wear them all the time. Is this the only color we have right now on the website? No, we have three colorways. What are the colors? So the colors it's again, I'm not great at describing them, but how would you describe the one that I'm wearing right now again? So that's like a tan brim with like a blue gray sort of body of the hat. The leather patch on it is a nice warm cherry leather sort of really pretty.

Yeah, you're doing great. I would describe that one. So the next one is a white back. It's got like a grayish blue, kind of this color right here, but a blue brim, like a navy blue or like a little bit lighter than a navy blue. Oh yeah. I'm looking at them now. And then the final one is maroon here, maroon here and white on the back. So we really have something for everyone. I like that maroon one a lot with the white on the back. Yeah. I might be able to get you one. I know someone. Yeah. Do you? I know someone, but you know what? You're not getting this first run because we got eight of each, I think eight to 10 of each. So if it does really well, we'll get more, but yes, if it's something you're interested in, you want to be one of the first people to have it,

go over to criminalcoffeeco.com. We also have a new design mug, the part-time detective mug. You can go over there and check out that mug. We also have the color changing mug back in stock and it's different than our previous color changing mug because it now includes our fourth character, Helen. So the one that we had up before that sold out did not have Helen on it. We now have all four characters and I think we have about 50 of those. So the Amigo coffee mug is my all time. That one sells out all the time. I love it. Yeah. 24 ounce mug. Oh my God. It's so big. I love that. Yeah. It's huge. We've actually reduced the prices on mugs too. We were able to go through a different distributor, get them a little cheaper.

We've passed on those savings to you guys. So you'll see the reflection of the lower prices for all the mugs based on that. So if it's something you're interested, go check it out. That's my plug onto the show. All right. So like I said, we're going to pick up with the messages between Gypsy Rose Blanchard and Nicholas Godijan in the weeks leading up to Dee Dee Blanchard's murder. At this point, Gypsy and Nick, they're still going through their toxic, hot, cold cycle of love-bombing each other before dramatically pulling away to get attention from the other. It's super awkward and cringe to read, but if it wasn't Gypsy pulling these antics, it was Nick. So on June 2nd, 2015, Gypsy attempted to break up with Nick, I guess,

allegedly. I don't think she actually wanted to go through with it, but she's trying to break up with him under the guise of telling him that she's bad for him, right? She's no good for him, and he would no longer have to have a bitch of a girl now. This is a passive-aggressive thing, like, oh, if I'm so bad, why are you with me? Like, I'll just save you from the torture of having to be with me. So she told him, quote, you are free, sweetie, end quote. Nicholas Godejohn texted Gypsy, quote, free, yes, free to die by my love, end quote. Gypsy immediately begins frantically texting Nick, and she's like, Daddy, what do you mean? Nicholas, answer me. I'm crying, you know, things like that. And Nick texted back saying,

quote, sweetie, if Bella doesn't come back, I don't want anyone else, so I'll end it. My darling daughter, just know that Daddy always worshipped you, end quote. Now, Bella is in reference to one of Gypsy's alter egos. And according to Nicholas Godejohn, they both would take on different personalities with each other when communicating or during their sexual escapades over the phone and in person. So Bella was one of these alter egos. And according to Nick, Bella was the alter ego that Gypsy used. And he said Bella was basically the romantic part of Gypsy. But there was also a more sexually explicit personality named Candy, and then also an evil personality that they called

Ruby. So Gypsy engages in this manipulative and toxic dynamic, telling Nick that she doesn't understand what does he mean when he says he's going to end it all. She has no clue what he could possibly mean by that. And Nick responds, quote, everything. I'll miss you all and time to end it all, end quote. Gypsy tells him to wait and she says, quote, you mean you won't be mine anymore, end quote. And Nick replies, quote, what does my daughter want before I go to hell, end quote. Gypsy says, quote, I want you to stay with me. You said you was coming to get me, end quote. Nicholas go to John responded saying, quote, Bella doesn't want me. So no one will have me but her. So I'll go to hell then if I can't have her, end quote. Gypsy begins to beg and bargain with Nick, telling him Bella does want him. Bella needs him. But then she also mentions that Nick's had a lot of girlfriends.

He's handsome, which I kind of take to mean that she's sort of telling him he'll be fine. You know, he'll find someone. He's not a bad person like her. And Nick writes, quote, I'm done. Bye, my love. You say you need me, but you broke us off, so I cut myself off. If you don't stop me in time, because with you, I'm nothing. End quote. Gypsy seems to finally understand what he's saying. She tells him that he can't take his own life, because if he does, she will as well. And Nick says, well, you better come back to me then, because, you know, she knows he's always going to keep his word, and he's going to go through with it. And Gypsy continues to beg, saying, quote,

please don't do it, my love, please, please. I want you, I do, but I'm bad for you. Stay with me, please, end quote. Nick writes, quote, I'm about to put the blade on my wrist and let it bleed if you don't come back within the next three minutes, end quote. Gypsy says she is back, and then Nick says he will not be going through with it joint Facebook account and this cousin wants to go fishing. And Nick's like, okay, sweetie. They're just a normal couple making plans with friends and family as if they weren't both just engaged in this horrible Romeo and Juliet thing. As if Nick wasn't telling Gypsy he had a blade to his skin about to cut if Bella didn't come back to him. It's very odd. And I almost wondered when I was

reading through it, is this some sort of foreplay for them? Do either of them actually believe that this is how they're feeling? Or is this just some sort of, we both need validation that we are so irreparably intertwined that neither one of us can survive without the other and they need to hear it from the other person? Does it get them excited? Does it create this passion, create this dopamine rush that allows them to feel as if they're still in this honeymoon period and they're not just some regular average couple, that there's this intense passion that makes them like soulmates or twin flames because then it's far more important. It's far more serious than just your average run of the mill relationship. This is a relationship that you would kill yourself for. This is a relationship that you would kill for kind of thing.

First off, very manipulative just to listen to that, especially on the part of Nicholas go to John. But Gypsy also has parts where she's very manipulative and trying to control the narrative by threatening certain things. So they're both guilty. I mean, just threatening to leave because I'm bad for you. That's manipulative. Yeah. Each guilty in their own right. So really, like you said, best way to describe it, just really toxic shit. Now I'm going to try to explain something. And if I mess this up, please feel free to correct me. But a lot of this reminds me of something, not to this extreme, by the way, not the threats of like self-harm, but as a kid,

and it was a long time ago for us, unfortunately. But do you remember times where young kids, when they were first starting to date, like I'm talking real young, like 12, 13, 14, you know, where they would almost have arguments like they were first starting to date like i'm talking real young like 12 13 14, you know Where they would almost have arguments like they were adults like they were trying to act older than they were and i'm guilty of it too like it's almost like It like spicens up the relationship if there's a little drama where it's like, yeah Intensity. Yeah, I don't know how to explain it. I might be totally botching it but

Like you you get examples of like you'll read text messages and it just sounds like shit that's way out of the league of what they're at as far as where they are in their lives contextual for what for what their actual life experiences no like they're talking about a text message that was sent to another friend and they're treating it like it was infidelity right it's like they're embellishing a lot of the house and the kids. Yes. Yes. And so when you read these text messages, we know that the emotional intelligence of both these individuals, and in Nicholas's case, the IQ, the literal IQ is subpar to their actual ages. They're both at about the age of 15 mentally and emotionally. Right. And so you have two people who are trying to play adult and trying to be,

you know, grownups in their relationship, but really haven't been, haven't had the best examples of what a relationship should look like from their, from their parents and their, the adults in their life. And they're, they're kind of making it up as they go and they're doing a horrible job. Probably see it on TV too, this dramatic kind of. That's it, TV, movies. I feel like that's what we're seeing here. Two people who are emotionally, the emotional IQ is not at the level where it should be, and yet their bodies are. And so they're trying to navigate this situation, and they're both incapable of doing so. It just seems really clumsy.

They kind of reminded me of something from my early childhood, which I think we've all been through to some extent. i want to know what yeah i'm gonna tell you but it's nothing crazy but i mean you know when you were like little and like your parents made you mad or they weren't giving you enough attention or they said you couldn't do something and you're like packing a bag and you're like i'm leaving i am leaving this house i'm never coming back like internally you're like i don't want to run away man man. Like, where the hell am I going to go? You have images of you like living in the woods and, and then your parents- Yeah, what time does the mall close at? Exactly. But you're like, the whole point is you need, you're trying to, you're not feeling heard

by your parents because you're a kid and they're adults and you want them to regret what they did to you a little bit. Like be scared, be worried, and go out there looking for you. And that's going to validate to you that they do care about you, that they want you to be there, right? So you're thinking, okay, I'm going to pack a bag. I'm going to make sure I have enough for like at least the night. And I'm going to sit in the woods and hopefully they'll come looking for me. And that's going to validate to me and make me more secure that they actually do love me and they want me there because I really don't want to run away. But I'm feeling a little insecure. I'm feeling a little unheard and unseen. And I need validation from the important attachment in my life. And I think that at

this point, Nick and Gypsy were the most important attachment to each other in their lives. But they have this long distance relationship. They don't really know what's going on with the other person, right? Like, we don't know what Nick's doing when he's not talking to Gypsy and vice versa. And they don't know what the other's doing when they're not talking to each other. And you have to get this constant validation to remain secure and to sort of bolster yourself through this long distance relationship. And that's kind of what it reminded me of, but it's toxic. It's toxic to do at any age. Threatening to take your own life, to make somebody do what you want or behave with you in the way that you want them to is manipulative. It is toxic. It's immature. I think we've all probably been there with somebody in

our lives and it put us in a place where we felt absolutely terrible and guilty because it's like, I don't necessarily want to be with you, but also I care about you as a person and I don't want you to hurt yourself. And so, yeah, it's immature. It's immature. That's the only way to put it. And I don't think we're trying to minimize it. We're just trying to put it in perspective of how we're viewing it. I don't think Nicholas was actually considering killing himself at that moment.

And I don't think Gypsy was planning on leaving him either. I don't think she thought he was going to kill himself. They're just playing this stupid game with each other. Yeah, because within an hour, they're talking about other stuff. So it's a lot. We're going to take our first break. We'll be right back. So we're back. The next few days go by without incident. And then the conversation turns very sexually focused. And this kind of is a pattern for them. They have like normal couple stuff where they're just chatting. And then I think they get bored with that. And so they do something to like amp up the intensity. And then after the intensity has been amped up and they're kind of like reconnecting in that toxic way, then it turns very sexual. So Gypsy was warning Nick one day. She was in a very sexual mood and she asked him what color restraints he wanted, black or pink. And Nick responded, hey, we're going to collect a bunch of these restraints, but get black right

now. Then on Saturday, June 6th, 2015, Gypsy sent Nick a text that I'm sure took him by surprise. So she says, quote, Honey, I was wondering, say I wanted to have sex with a guy before leaving town. Could I? It's just a curious question, lol. Okay, so I know you're territorial, but I'm being tempted sexually, end quote. So she means before they leave town, when they kill her mother and then they run away together? Can she have sex with somebody else? Which even in a non-toxic kind of relationship, I think we understand what kind of response this is going to receive from a person's partner. It's most likely not going to be a, yeah, honey, sweetie pie, you go ahead and do that before we leave town, get it out of your system.

I don't know if that's the response. So Nick, he doesn't answer right away, but it looks like they took this conversation to a different platform, which happens a lot, especially when they're going to be discussing what Gypsy calls their plan, aka the murder of D.D. Blanchard and then her great escape. I'm sure they discussed it later. She always says to him when they're about to talk about something sensitive, she's like, hey, can you go and talk to me in this other place? And we don't have those messages. Do we know what it was? Was it Snapchat or something? I'm assuming it's something where it wasn't saved. I don't think it was Snapchat. Snapchat didn't, I don't think Snapchat existed at that time, but no. No, you're right. It probably didn't. I don't believe

that they were using Snapchat, but they had a bunch of different platforms that they would talk about, which you'll hear Nick refer to when they are in their interrogation. Real quick, though, that right there shows some level of understanding of what they're the significance of what they're talking about to take those measures. I mean, I would love to know what was in those messages because yeah but exactly and to know that they're not discussing it openly on this platform suggests that they're both aware that what the significance and the severity of what they're discussing and potentially carrying out that to me is something that should be considered as well when talking about culpability when it comes to this to the actual murder they knew what they were doing was wrong obviously yeah that's exactly it boil the actual murder. They knew what they were doing was wrong, obviously. Yeah, that's exactly it. Boil it down right there.

They knew what they were doing, what they were even discussing was wrong. Of course. And they didn't want anybody to see because they didn't want to get caught. Exactly. Yeah. Later that night, Gypsy tells Nick that she's agreed to meet someone for coffee at a cupcake place and that this would close the chapter on that person, who I assume is the man that Gypsy is saying she's sexually tempted by. She tells Nick,

quote, it's a public place, so it's all good, hon, end quote. And Nick replies, quote, dear still, I told you, I'll be around in the area of it to make sure he doesn't do anything and you have to accept that, end quote. So it looks like they probably had this discussion about Gypsy having sex with somebody she was sexually tempted by and Nick was probably like, end quote. So it looks like they probably had this discussion about Gypsy having sex with somebody she was sexually tempted by, and Nick was probably like, absolutely not. That's not going to happen. And then she was like, well, I have to let him down easier. I have to let him know. And he's like, all right, I will allow with you to meet him in a public place. And she's like, okay, I think it's just more ways of getting attention, more ways of her saying like, hey, you're not my only option. I'm coveted by others. You know, don't get too comfortable kind of thing. Once again, very immature, toxic

relationship dynamics. Couldn't agree more. Had that happen as kids, you have it where you just, you know, hey, you're not the only game in town. I'm valued. I'm wanted. So if you don't shape up, there's other options for me. It's been proven, especially with Nick, as far as his IQ. I mean, the ability to emotionally regulate is due to some of the issues he has with being autistic, right? Yeah. Not being able to pick up on maybe social cues. Social cues. And I know we get a lot of comments about this. We know that not everyone's the same. And I do want to say, when we talk about this, we're coming from a place of, we're just, we're trying to say it the right way. We understand that everyone is different, right? And so this isn't some broad brush that we're painting as far as autism is concerned. You're more than welcome to voice your opinions, but I feel like

some people take it personally. Like we're doing it to be malicious or vindictive to people who have mental disorders. That's not the case here. We're not trying to villainize anyone. But these are the facts of the case. I love the neurodivergence. Okay. Those are my people. So it's like, we're not, we're not trying to villainize anybody in and paint this broad brush that like everybody who has this is, is capable of something this hein's not the situation but in nicholas's case i think it's showing he was very vulnerable to somebody coming in oh yeah placing him at the center of their world and then him feeling this responsibility towards them because that had never happened

to him before he never felt like he had somebody who could belong to him and who he could belong to so now this is a very, very important relationship to him. He's putting it on a pedestal and he's going to protect it at all costs because of all of the other things going on with him. And I do have things to say about towards the end of the episode, how neurodivergent people, people with autism, ADHD, things like that are more susceptible to this because of the way their brain is formed. I get it. And it could happen to someone who has none of these issues. Of course. Yeah. But I don't, I don't think it could happen to a well-adjusted, healthy

person, adult, a secure adult who has self-confidence, self-esteem and knows their worth. Right. And the gypsy know this? Of course. Yes, of course. And I think to a certain degree, even with some limitations, Nick knew it is about Gypsy as well. I think they were both playing off those elements. So Gypsy then asked Nick what time his bus left on Thursday, and he told her it left at 6.13 p.m., and they're talking about the bus that's going to bring Nick to Springfield to see Gypsy, save her from her evil mother, take Rapunzel down out of the castle, and then ride off into the sunset with her. They chat about how excited they are to see each other. You know, normal couple stuff, not even really at all having the color of we're going

to see each other and be happy, but this is a horrible thing we're going to do. There's none of that. On June 8th, Nicholas go to John,, texts Gypsy updates as he moves from bus to bus on his way to her. And they talk about how the following night is the last that they'll have to sleep without the other. On June 9th, the messages are mostly suggestive and sexual. Nick's sitting on a bus and they're sexting back and forth. Gypsy asks Nick if she may have daddy's sweetness, and he replies, quote, yes, you may, dear, but warning, once you taste it, you won't want anything else. You'll be so addicted to it, darling, end quote. Gypsy replied, quote, I'm fine with being daddy's little addict, end quote. Gypsy tells Nick that her heart is pounding. She's so excited to see him,

and she feels so happy knowing that they will be together soon. On June 9th at 1.39 a.m., Nicholas texts Gypsy that he's on his way to Springfield and Gypsy's worried that Nick is going to be in town around 5 a.m., but she doesn't think the hotel will let him check in until 11 a.m. and he tells her not to worry. He'll just have to pay a little more money and also he's going to walk from the bus station to the hotel to save that extra money that he's going to have to pay the hotel, which actually seems pretty, I guess, well-planned for them. Once again, it's like there's these times where they seem immature, but then they're planning this murder and they're kind of budgeting how they're going to spend their money. And it seems like they're doing a good job of that. He's like, well, if I'm going to have to pay extra money for the hotel, I'm going to have to walk from the bus station to the hotel because I'm not going to have that extra money. And so it's kind

of self-aware. And so there's these moments of, I guess, maturity or responsibility that pop through. And then you're like, what the heck? Are these the same people? Yeah, no, I feel like that's what's going on here, where there's a constant pull and push in this relationship, where there are limitations in certain areas. But I do think at the root of it, they both have enough of awareness and intelligence to understand right from wrong. I think both Nicholas Gotajon and Gypsy Rose were completely aware of what they were discussing and potentially getting ready to carry out. I don't think the argument could be made for either of them that they were at some limited IQ level where they were incapable of understanding the significance of this potential action.

That's where I'm at. Because of these blimps of like being aware of what you're doing and being able to rationalize and problem solve. I think it's there. I agree. And so Nicholas gets into town. He checks into the hotel. He's texting Gypsy. He's like, yeah, it was really extra expensive. Like, I'm really gonna have to figure out how to budget to get your house tomorrow. They discuss how he's going to get to her house. And in a conversation that seems kind of intense for, that side of me expects duct tape too, to muffle her. End quote. Gypsy responds back cheerfully, okay, baby, we have that. And then she says she will pre-cut the duct tape. Nick said, quote, that's good, dear. However, he expects you to give him the full role. End quote. Gypsy says, quote, I will. We only have black bondage tape and Minnie Mouse duct tape, end quote. Nick writes back, quote, he said the Minnie Mouse duct tape, hon, end quote. Nick then asks, quote, dear, I should ask you this before he has to. Is your mom a light or deep sleeper, end quote. Gypsy writes back, light, hon, and in response, Nick says, quote, okay, dear, now he's excited, end quote. So what they're saying when they're talking about he, they're talking about Victor. This is Nick's alter ego, his evil side, okay? Victor's going to be the one killing Dee Dee, not Nick. And this is very much a psychological protection mechanism that people will do, right? It's not me doing it. It's my evil side. It's a separation of Nick Godejohn from the crime itself. He's putting Victor in

between himself and the murder of D.D. Blanchard. And he's doing this because what he's about to do, I believe, is so psychologically difficult for him to comprehend. It can't be him doing it. It has to be this evil side of him, Victor. I also think it's his way of saying, I am a good person. Regardless of what Victor does, I'm a good person that's not reflective of who I am. So anything I do while in the character of Victor, I'm not responsible for and doesn't reflect negatively on me. But I want to pose this question to you and more importantly to everybody listening and watching. Just hearing that conversation.

I know. And this could change as we go. Again, we're just scratching the surface at this point. But compartmentalizing these conversations because they're important. Just that conversation there, not knowing who's who. Would you say that was a discussion between person one and person two where person two was manipulating person one? Or would you say that's more of a collaborative effort between two people? That's a collaborative effort between two people.

And I want you guys to come to your own opinions on that, but just not even knowing who's who. Do you see a primary aggressor, for lack of a better way to describe it? The the the captain of the ship in there or do you see it as a equal partnership? I would agree with stephanie at this point. Yeah, nick's like, you know gypsy's like I got the knife I got the gloves. What else you need man, right and just to put the foundation on it, too The reason why victor's coming here to this point is because of everything that gypsy has told him about dd So that's the foundation and the motive behind it. But as far as the actual means and opportunity of this, this is the discussion between two people.

And I would put the blame 50-50. Basically, there are no means. There are no means. And there is no opportunity without Gypsy. If not for Gypsy. Yes. Fair. And he's like, oh, you know, I need other stuff.

You know, I need duct tape. And she's like, I'll pre-cut it for you. Oh, yeah. She's volunteering extra stuff. Absolutely. She's not like, I'm just going to hide out. You got to do what you got to do, but I don't want to hear the details about it. It's like, not only am I going to give you duct tape, you want bondage tape or Minnie Mouse duct tape.

Okay, Minnie Mouse duct tape. I will pre-cut it for you. Whatever I can do to make your job easier. There could have been a different way. And this was framed where he gives her a list. This is what I need. Don't ask questions. And all she writes back, okay. Or even he gets the stuff himself and he says, I don't want you to be involved with this at all. You're my little girl. You just stay in your room, lock the door. I've got everything. But she's like, let me buy the knife. Let me get the gloves. What else you need? Let me pre-cut your tape for you. And that's why I think we

are saying what we're saying, which just doesn't sound like one person is making this decision and the other person maybe even apprehensively is going along for the ride. No, this is a... She's certainly not being forced, right? She's not being forced. She's actually asking questions that weren't even... She's being proactive. She's preparing. She's being proactive in this murder creation. Absolutely. It's like they're planning a vacation, you know, like, okay, you call the travel agent.

I'll get the hotel set. Do you want me to, you know, get early check in? What's going on here? It's like very run of the mill kind of conversation. Like they're talking about planning something together and this is what she's going to do. And this is what he's going to do of the mill kind of conversation. Like they're talking about planning something together and this is what she's going to do. And this is what he's going to do, but not planning a murder, right? It's super cash, super cash conversation for what's happening. And one more thing, when we think about first degree murder, we think about what is required

for it. Premeditation. If you're going to use this as part of your premeditation argument, you can't have this premeditation evidence without Gypsy Rose. It's a back and forth. This is premeditation. This is the definition of premeditation. This is it. This is the definition of premeditation. You have it here, black and white, and it's an equal partnership as far as who's premeditating the murder.

So how do you remove her from that equation and say, no, this is Nicholas, go to John. Listen, we have a lot more to go. We have a lot more to go. And just on this, this is where it's going to get really interesting. We're going to take our next break. We'll be right back.

All right, we're back. So Nick's trying to talk to Gypsy and see, you know, like, where is everything going down? Make sure you have everything there. He's asking her, how is your mom's sleep? Is she a light sleeper? Is she a deep sleeper? And Gypsy responds, quote, she sleeps on her tummy, like I said, but light sleeper, hon.

The shit's going to go down tonight, Ruby said, end quote. So now Gypsy's pulling in her evil alter ego, right? Oh yeah, they have to. They have to. This isn't Gypsy and Nick. This is Ruby and Victor, these evil people, but they're communicating. But even this tells me an understanding of what they're doing is wrong. Yes, exactly. It morally feels wrong to them. So in order for them to not feel guilty and for, in order for them to be able to go through with it where their normal consciousness would be like this is bad i'm your conscience i'm jiminy cricket on your shoulder

here this is bad and they're like shut up jiminy we're not nick and gypsy we're victor and ruby and victor and ruby don't have consciences okay go away jiminy cricket we don't want to hear from you they don't want to feel guilty about it because they want to do it. And if they felt bad about it, they might not, right? They might second guess themselves. They might, one of the, one of them might talk the other out of it. But at this point, gypsy's not trying to talk Nick out of it. And she could easily, he's not there, right? She paid for his bus ticket. She gave him money for this. She got the knife. She's making these plans at any point. She could have been like, you know what what i'm not sending you money for a bus ticket or when he got there and he's texting her like i'm here you know let me know how to get in she stops answering she just

stops answering she could have stopped at any time she definitely not say it all happens tonight yeah shit the shit's going down tonight says ruby well even you were saying here as i'm looking at the script with you and i don't know if you said this part exactly but nick asks her what she meant by that did you already say that no okay go ahead i don't want to steal your thunder yeah so nick asks what ruby means by that and gypsy clarification it's not gypsy they're communicating through gypsy and nick which is weird they're not even like oh hey this is is Ruby now. This is Ruby talking to you. This is Victor talking to you. It's like they're mediums through which Ruby and Victor can communicate with Gypsy and Nick. So bizarre.

So she says it means it all happens tonight, end quote. And Nick asks, well, how does Ruby feel about that? And Gypsy says, quote, she keeps me numb in order to cope and survive, hon, keeping me focused, end quote. Gypsy tells Nick to bring his A game. Gypsy tells Nick to bring his A game, right? Nick's not like, hey, this is going down. I'm going to kill your mother. You better be ready for it. You better not be backing out. You better be strong enough. It's Gypsy telling Nick, bring your A game because, quote, this is life with me on the line. End quote. Once again, Dee Dee's going to be sleeping. Nick could have strolled up,

taken Gypsy's hand. They could have walked right out, you know, rode off into the distance. Gypsy knows very well she's over the age of 18 legally. She's an adult. She's allowed to do whatever she wants. She knows that. Yeah. She could have. She could have left. I think that quote is probably the most compelling quote in this entire conversation we've had so far tonight. Why is that? If in that quote she had written, my life is on the line. You may argue that she really was in fear of Dee Dee and felt like this needed to happen in order to save her from dying. But the fact that she instead said, this is life with me on the line, changes the narrative completely. This isn't my life depends on it. This is, hey, here's your incentive. You kill her, you get me. Yes. Thank you. Very different. Thank you, Derek.

Thank you. Because some people were saying, cause I've seen people talk about how they interpreted these messages. And some people said they thought that she was saying like, this is my life on the line, that that's what she meant to say. Well, I have no previous knowledge of that right there. That's how I read it. That is not what she meant at all. She said, this is life with me on the line. This is your life. You do this. You get me. I'm the prize. Exactly. And during the interrogations for both Gypsy and Nick,

they both say, this is the only way we thought we could be together. Right. The only way he thought, she says this is the only way he thought he could be with me. And he said, this is the only way that she thought we could be together unbothered.

So at the end of the day, was it because Gypsy and Nick wanted to be together and they thought that Dee Dee wouldn't let them or that she would never let up and never leave them alone and always try to be getting Gypsy back because Gypsy's her meal ticket, Gypsy gets her money, Gypsy gets this, this and that, the attention? Or was it that Gypsy literally thought, if I don't get out of here, my mother's going to kill me? I do not think at any point that Gypsy thought her mother was going to kill her. And that's the difference here. If you could argue that where they did this because Dee Dee was a threat to Gypsy's life, that's different than saying Dee Dee was a bump in the road or a barrier

to us being together. And we need her money to start a life together. Yeah. And even without the money factor, one could be self-defense, the other is inconvenience. One could be justified, the other definitely isn't. And once again, the same with the Menendez brothers. Okay. Kitty and Jose, in that moment that they were shot, did not pose a single threat to Eric and Lyle. And in the moment that Didi would be stabbed to death by Nicholas Godejohn, she was asleep. She didn't pose a single threat to Gypsy in that moment. No doubt. No doubt.

And think about how many couples go through this similar situation where because of religious backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, whatever, certain parents in that relationship do not want those two individuals to be together. They can't just go around killing that person that's preventing them from being together. We talked about how this would have been the only manchasim by proxy case where a child ended up killing who feels controlled by their parent kills their parents

so that they can be with somebody or go on to do something, right? That's pretty common. That happens not, I don't want to say all the time, but there's many, many cases where that's happened, where a child, whether that's a minor child or in their twenties, has killed their parents so that they can be with the person they love. Yeah. And I think that's a minor child or in their 20s, has killed their parents so that they can be with the person they love. Yeah. And I think that's something that I have to clarify right now too, that you just, the way you framed it is very important. And I think valuable to the conversation because after last episode, and stop me if I'm wrong, I'm definitely more on the side of Gypsy Rose was abused. I'm not saying you don't think she was but you have a difference

Of opinion on it, which is great. You it's it's good that we didn't agree on it completely people really enjoyed the debate but I will say this even though i'm on that side of I believe gypsy rose was abused by dd Here's the problem From what i'm reading from what i'm seeing from Gypsy's mouth, even though she may have thought she was being abused, she wasn't in fear of her life. She didn't feel it was that severe. That is important because there are many people out there that are abused by their parents and don't feel that their life is in jeopardy and therefore don't kill their parents.

As you said, this would be the first one. I can say I wholeheartedly believe she was abused but based on what i'm seeing now I can also say That gypsy wasn't in fear of her life due to that abuse Again, I I sound like a broken record multiple things can be true And still feel differently about individual aspects of the case So yeah, I can feel sorry for the fact that she was abused But it doesn't sound to me like she was sitting at home thinking, I need to get out of this immediately or I'm going to die, which to me would be important if you're trying to rationalize the murder itself. Yeah. And I, like I said, I think that the motive of Gypsy and Nick being able to be together

without Dee Dee getting in the way is, makes a lot more sense and is far more common. That's, it's her words. But that's not what Gypsy said. The motive is when she got caught. She's saying it right here. Yeah. We can be together. Me, our life.

This is the life with me on the line. And there's still going to be people, dude, who argue, oh, that's just the way she made Nicholas do what she wanted because she was an actual fear for her life. No, no. Because if that was the case, then she would say that, you know, she'd say like, this is my life on the line. You worship me, I'm your special little girl. Well, my mother's gonna take me out

and we'll never be together because I'll be dead if you don't do this. That would have been a greater motive to him. I'm with you. And we'll see those people that are in the comments and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I emphatically disagree. Yeah. Just like we agree that the Menendez brothers didn't have to kill their parents. They were abused.

Me and you agree. Yes. Not everyone agrees with us, but yes. They were abused and they could have just left. They were adults, just like Gypsy and Nick. But they wanted that money. And whether or not they felt entitled to that money because of all their parents had done to them and the hell that they made their lives, et cetera, et cetera. That's whatever it is, what it is. But they could have got away without killing their parents. They just wouldn't have got that money. That is my opinion as well. And Gypsy could have left with Nick, but then she knows Dee Dee would have come looking for her, just like she did when she left and was at that other dude's house. She would have come looking for her, just like she did when she left and was at that other dude's house. She would have come looking for her.

And she would have come between Gypsy and Nick because she wanted Gypsy for whatever reason. You know, she wasn't done with the scam or she just was afraid that Gypsy was going to be taken advantage of by people. Didn't trust Gypsy to be out there in the world alone. Whatever you want to look at what Dee Dee's motives were to bring Gypsy back. Gypsy knew Dee Dee would have probably tried to get her to come back. And she wanted to be with Nicholas Godejohn, unbothered, unharassed by Dee Dee. Well, I think it's important to remind people too, because we took some time off and then we kind of went sideways with this case as far as what we covered. I think it's important to remind people, because I'm looking at my previous notes, this wasn't plan A. As specified by Gypsy, she mentioned the phrase plan B.

There was other options here. Other games that were at play where initially- We get Dee Dee to accept Nicholas Godijan as Gypsy's boyfriend. That's right. And if she had- Then she would be alive. They were okay with Dee Dee being around. Therefore, she wasn't a danger to Gypsy.

But when that didn't work, plan B came up because the first option was no longer in place. So that's important. Dee Dee, Gypsy wasn't in fear initially of Dee Dee. This all became a thing when they tried the whole movie incident that you described and it didn't work. And so Gypsy's life, arguably, at least at this time, couldn't have been that bad with Dee Dee. If she just wanted Dee Dee to accept her boyfriend and hope that they could live as a normal, happy family where the mother is like, oh, here's my daughter and her boyfriend, Nick, and they're both in their twenties and, you know, we're all good with each other and we spend Christmas together. It couldn't have been that bad if Gypsy was fine with continuing on with that life as long as she could have Nicholas. Yep. I'm with you.

So yeah, Gypsy's telling Nick, oh, my mom sleeps on her stomach and she's a light sleeper. The shit's going to go down. I'm ready to do this. Ruby's keeping me numb in order to cope and survives, keeping me focused. Bring your A game, hon. And then Nick tells Gypsy that it's his evil side doing the murder, so he won't mess up. He's going to bring his A game because he enjoys killing. So that's his, Victor enjoys killing, not Nick, Victor. So on June 9th at 8.09 PM, Gypsy tells Nick that she's preparing, but Nick's a bit on edge because he's at the hotel now, right? He's sitting there. He's waiting for her to give him the green light to come over. And she's not being very responsive to him because she's busy

getting ready for him. At 8.27 PM, Nick writes, quote, obviously you're not as lonely without me as I am without you because you're not truly communicating with me and you have no idea how painful it is to me or you wouldn't be laughing at me, end quote, because he had written back to her earlier and he's like, hey, what's going on, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, LOL, I'm just shaving and getting ready. And she's like, LOL. And he's like, why are you laughing at me? What's funny? He's super on edge, right? He knows what he's about to do. He's sitting in a hotel room with nothing but his thoughts and he can't even get his responses from her to distract him and almost bolster him through it, right? Because when she's talking to him, giving him validation,

like, oh yeah, hon, we're going to be together. We're going to have you so happy after all this. It's going to be great. He's okay. It lubricates him to get through to what he's going to do. But when he's just sitting there with his own thoughts and nothing else, he's kind of getting edgy. And he's like, answer me, answer me. Like, what's going on? And so Gypsy writes back saying, quote, darling, I'm getting naked in the tub. I was only excited. I'm not laughing at you. I'm just happy. End quote. Nick apologizes. He's like, sorry, I'm being a little extra. I just miss you too much. And it's all overwhelming. And Gypsy, who doesn't have time for this lovey-dovey talk at this time, she's all business. She tells Nick, quote, I left the gloves outside the front door and the screen door is squeaky. So try to open it just enough to get in and close it gentle. I'll hand him the knife

and duct tape inside, darling. It's pre-cut and ready. End quote. Once again, Gypsy could have locked herself in her bedroom, done nothing, didn't even see him when he came in. Could have had no part in this, but she could have said, hey, I left the duct tape and the gloves on the counter. When you walk in, it's right to your left. You'll see them right there. Instead, she's got to be there when he comes in, right? To hand these things to him. That's interesting to me. I mean, I also think it's interesting that she's going as far as, hey, when you come in, the door squeaky, make sure you don't do anything too loud because- Making sure he's not, he's not detected. Yeah. And just, I don't, I don't think you're questioning this, but I want to put this out to everybody who's listening or watching, and just, I don't think you're questioning this, but I want to put this out to everybody who's listening or watching, and I'm not a mental expert. Nope, you're not a mental expert. I mean, we didn't evaluate Gypsy or Nicholas Godejohn, but I don't think the majority of the people out there are believing that this is a schizophrenia type of situation where these two individuals have multiple personalities. This is just them using a different name

in order to justify what they're doing, which they know is wrong. I just want to make sure we're clear on where I am at this point. Do you feel the same way? Is that fair? Yeah, this is not a schizophrenic thing. Okay, I'm just making sure you and I like, you're posing it this way, but you don't believe it. I'm posing it what way?

You're posing it because it's the way it's being told, Victor and Ruby, but you don't believe that bullshit. You don't believe that when she says, I'll hand it to him, meaning Victor. I don't believe, no, because I don't think. She knows who she's handing the knife to. Yeah. Okay, that's, I'm just making sure that, you know, she's playing along. Because I will say this, because of. Playing along. She's a major player in this game. Allowing him to believe that he's a different

person, whatever it takes to make it easier for Nick to do what he's going to do. Gypsy's going to support that. Well, she's also Ruby. She's Ruby though. She doesn't say me when I'm Ruby. She says her. That is true. That is true. She's referring to Ruby as if Ruby's a completely different person and not actually, you know, a part of her. She never speaks as if she's Ruby's voice and neither really does Nick. That's the weird thing. They talk like, like I said, like Ruby and Victor are ghosts and they're mediums and the ghosts are speaking through them and they are able to communicate to the other what this other entity is saying,

but they never speak as if they are Ruby and Victor. They speak as if they're Gypsy and Nick and they're hearing messages from Ruby and Victor. It's real weird. This is one of those points where, and it's not intended to be insulting, where lower IQ, we don't know what Gypsy's IQ level was, but we know that Nicholas was like 82 based on what Dr. Fabian said. This is a moment where that lower intelligence level does come into play because I personally feel like in their minds,

by saying it's a different person, they feel that if anyone ever saw this, that would be some justification for their actions. This might be a defense. It could be, yeah. That's why they're talking about it so freely in this chat. Correct. But they're putting it on this other person.

So they're thinking, hey, as long as we say it's someone else, we're covered. This is where that lower intelligence level does come into play. Or is it higher intelligence, right? Because now it's like, okay, we have foresight here. And now maybe we can. They're thinking it's higher intelligence. Yeah, maybe we can have a schizophrenia or a mental health, you know, deficit defense. If it looks like we're just crazy and we have all these other people living in our heads, that could be foresight of if we get caught.

If somebody sees this, they won't be able to blame us or we can use it as a possible loophole to get out of this. Yeah, I agree. And so it's interesting. I mean, it's so much to unpack here and a lot of it is very subjective, but we are human beings. We're just looking at this. If I were the detective working this case, this is how I would be writing my affidavit up, my search warrants up, how I would be approaching the interrogation. To me, reading these text messages, I would be very confident in what is being said here. And I would look at these two as equal partners in this crime. I agree. I agree. So Gypsy's like, I'm going to hand him the knife and the duct tape inside, darling. It's pre-cut and ready. Even though

Nick was like, give him the whole roll. Gypsy was like, I don't care what you say, darling. It's pre-caught and ready, even though Nick was like, give him the whole roll. Gypsy was like, I don't care what you say, dude. She's going, she's taking measures that he didn't even ask for. Yeah. I'm going to make your life easier. Just go with it, you know? This is the way to do it. So Nick replies that Gypsy is telling all of this to his evil side because his evil

side, Victor, is the one who agreed to do it, meaning the murder. Nick then says his evil side wanted him to ask Gypsy if Dee Dee's floor was also squeaky. And she replied, quote, no, hon, it's all carpet. Followed by, quote, tell him all my private parts are shaved. End quote. I mean, that's just, to me, again, not to beat a dead horse here. Another example of this is going to save me.

Thank you so much. She's tempting him with sex. She'll be a good boy. That's very much. You do this what you do what I need you to do And i'll have sex with you which she knows he's owned by Not only you're going to get to be with me, but I am literally the day i'm planning out my mother's murder i'm also Telling you that i'm preparing myself to give you the best sex possible. So just do what I need you to do. Stay focused and you're going to get rewarded at the end.

It's, it's disgusting, but it does also show again, a level of cognition where she understands what she's doing and what she needs to do to motivate Nicholas go to John to carry out an act that she's too much of a coward to do herself. Or doesn't want to get in trouble for doing herself. Right. She's trying to avoid any type of detection. It's not looking good for Gypsy. I'm, I didn't expect for the text messages to be this damning. I have not seen these. And these are the text messages that we see, not the ones that they went to other like messaging platforms

to discuss in more depth, right? I did not expect them to be this overt. That's what I'm saying. I really didn't. I thought you and I were going to be debating. No, people go so hard and like, oh, Stephanie, what's your problem with Gypsy? She's like, yes, she's a victim,

but also there's just something about this girl that does not sit right with me. I do not think that she's as, you know, a lamb in the woods, as innocent as she would have you believe. Her current actions also solidify that. And the actions in 2015, when she's discussing the murder of her mother, also solidify that. Okay? And I would say to them, you can feel that she's been a victim of abuse, but who taught her this? It doesn't mean that every person who's a victim of abuse is a good person. And it doesn't mean that every person of abuse is a bad person,

but in this case, she is clearly not a good person. And like I said, there's no indications that Dee Dee had shown her how to kill someone and get away with it. This is on her. Yes. She's not following what she knows. Right. This isn't something where the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree where her mother or father was a murderer and she was basically around that her entire childhood and just thought it was okay. She didn't know right from wrong. Not the case here. No.

Not the case. No, I agree. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Alright, so we are back. All right. So we are back. Nick and Gypsy are talking about her shaving habits. And she says all of her private parts are shaved. She wants Victor to know that.

And Nick responds, quote, okay, baby, he is excited to do this. What about the rest of your bottom half is what he had me ask you, end quote. Gypsy wrote back that she would shave her legs as soon as she heard him knock. And Nick wrote, quote, okay, baby, don't be alarmed if he speaks because yes, it sounds evil, hon, end quote. Gypsy tell him she's painting her nails dark pink because it goes with her pink boots. She tells him that when she sees him, she's going to be in her nightgown with painted pink nails and pink lip gloss. And Nick writes, quote, okay, dear, but when he gets you from the bathroom, I suggest you are naked when he sees you after the deed, end quote. Gypsy then tells Nick to get some sleep, saying, quote, mom goes to bed at like 4 a.m.,

end quote. And at this time, it's about 10 p.m. So Nick says he's gotten enough sleep, and Gypsy tells him she will wear him out, right? So Nick's obviously on p.m so nick says he's gotten enough sleep and gypsy tells him she will wear him out right so nick's obviously on edge he can't rest he's like preparing he can't just go to sleep i don't know what the hell she's thinking i don't know if he's more like like i think up about the sex of the sex or the murder i think he's nervous about the murder but excited about the sex yeah it's like he's just like he just wants to get the, he's thinking, he keeps going back to like, when I'm done with this little thing,

get prepared for the night of your life. The murder is a means to an end to get what he wants, which is Gypsy with her pink lip gloss and her pink nails all shaved coming out of the bathroom. Yep. I'm with you a hundred percent.

I don't have a single disagreement. And that's why she keeps bringing it back to that. Right. Once again, dangling that carrot. Yep. So an hour later, Gypsy Once again, dangling that carrot. Yep. So an hour later, Gypsy says she's shaking. She must be nervous. And she says, quote, I guess it's the if it all goes okay, end quote.

Nick says it's going to be fine. And Gypsy tells him as a backup plan, if it doesn't go right, he should run out of the house as fast as he can. Nick writes, quote, baby, there's no other option. He is going to finish her no matter what. That's how he is. End quote. And Gypsy responds, quote, okay, darling, he is brave. I respect and admire that. It's all manipulation. This is all manipulation. Yeah. She's trying to make you feel like a man, right? You are my man. You're a strong, brave man. You're coming and doing what needs to be done so you can get the spoils of the battle afterwards. I, oh, I'm so turned on, so excited, so respectful and in admiration of you. You're a big, strong man.

And as she's doing this, his testosterone is just going wild. He's like, I am a big, strong man. I am going to do this. Even if, and maybe I'm looking too deep here, and I'm not going to stop you every time you hit a quote because they're very damning one after another. And it's kind of repetitive for me to keep jumping in. But even the if, that to me, I related to in a way where I remember when I was a kid, like, you know, when I was asking for a specific present that I was hoping that I got from my mom or my dad. My dad, I would say like, you know, if I get this new bat cave, I'm going to set it up over here.

And I was trying to like see like if they were gonna still go through if they were actually gonna got it yeah you're gauging their reaction yeah like to see like how plausible was it that i was gonna get that item and i feel like this is her like if you know by chance it doesn't go down it's kind of like again a manipulation tactic where if if you're not able to pull this off you should just get out of here and he's like no no it's happening. She doesn't want Nick to get caught in the house because Dee Dee's already met Nick.

If Nick gets caught in the house trying to murder her, Dee Dee's going to know exactly how this went down, exactly how this happened. And Gypsy's going to be implicated. So she's like, if it doesn't go right, get the hell out. But I think her nervousness, once again, goes back to the, if it goes right. She's not nervous about the fact

that they're about to kill her mother. She's nervous that something might stop this from happening and they might get caught. Yeah. Yep. I'm going to try not to cut you off, but no promises. So Nick responds, quote, honey, you forgot, though. He is ruthless and his hatred of her will force her to die, hon, end quote. Gypsy tells Nick that soon they will be happy.

And after this night, they will never speak of it again. At 1.08 a.m. on June 10th, Gypsy texted Nick, quote, it's getting close to the time she took her sleep aid pill, and once you're inside the house, we stay silent, not even a whisper, until after I open the bathroom door. Okay, sir, end quote. A few minutes later, Gypsy texts again, quote, I just want to say this. Thank you. You're my hero and I will never leave you. I'm staying with you for eternity. End quote. Just to be fair, I'm kind of, I'm extrapolating here, but that could be interpreted by the Gypsy Rose supporters as that you're my hero. You're saving me. I just, because I hit her hard on the last quote, which was indisputable. I'll give her a

little bit of leeway here, although I don't necessarily think that's what she's intending here. I'm just trying to be impartial. That quote right there could be taken as you're saving me. No, it's manipulation. I agree. I agree with you, but I'm trying to stay neutral. And she says to Nick, you know, do you think you're going to need anxiety medication to calm you down after? And then she says, quote, you're the most important person to me, sweetie. You're like me. You fight for what you want and need. End quote. Once again, this goes back to the, what do they want? What do they need? They want to be together. They need to be together. She's hurt herself again. Yeah. This isn't, you're like me. You know, when people are horrible to you, you get away and you save yourself no matter what. It's you fight for what you want and need. She's the enemy. What kind of fight is this?

DeeDee's asleep. You fight. Yeah. DeeDee's the thing stopping them from being together. Not a threat to Gypsy. And this is very much triangulation, right? Um, I, I, you and I are together in this. It's, it's me and you, Bonnie and Clyde, us against the world. We go down together. We ride together. We die together. Bad boys for life. And anybody who wants to come between us is the enemy and needs to be taken care of and taken out expediently. Expeditiously.

Whatever. That's what it sounds like to me. I got nothing. I mean, I can't believe people would make an argument that Nick was driving this conversation. I know. I agree. Whatever. We'll continue on giving him updates. She's the one constantly. Okay. She took her sleep pill now. All right. Now she's doing this. I just and she's in between giving him updates to let him know. She's also like, thank you so much for this. He's not even asking her. He's not. No. Thank you so much for this. Thank you. You're everything to me. You know, it's the okay. It's getting closer. But I also need to like remind you how important you are to me so that you remember what you're everything to me uh you know it's it's the okay it's getting closer but i also need to like remind you how important you are to me so that you remember what you're doing this for yep thank you at 127 a.m gypsy texted nick quote she's drifting off to sleep is there anything you need to know hon end quote nick wrote back quote not that i can think of dear except you're letting him in the front darling end quote it's important to note that as they're having this specific conversation, they're also having a secondary conversation

throughout this about what kind of sex they're going to have that night. Gypsy combines both conversations into one when she says, quote, because at the hotel we can go slow. Oh, and you may not need to put on the gloves because we'll sink it so it's never found. And yes, front, end quote. I think she's talking about the knife. She is talking. I was just going to, yeah, she is talking about the knife. We can throw the knife in the water. We're going to get rid of it. We're not going to have to worry about fingerprints because, you know, so you don't have to wear the gloves. Which is so dumb. Again, premeditation, disposal of the murder weapon. But yeah, no, she's definitely an innocent bystander. And once again,

anybody who's looking at the thing where she's like, oh, you're my hero and never leave you. And this is her being actually grateful to him. Yeah. Okay. Until the first chance that she got in that interrogation room, she threw his ass under the bus. Okay. How grateful to him is she? How much does she feel like he actually saved her life? If somebody saved my life, once again, we're going down together.

The way she made it seem to him is that we're in this together. No matter what happens, we're going down together. The way she made it seem to him is we're in this together. No matter what happens, we'll both face it. Until you get caught and you're throwing him under the bus to the police the second you have a chance. So, no, it's all manipulation. Yeah, and I mean, just, I don't want to go too, we got more episodes to go. But, and I know people are saying, Derek, she didn't get away with this. She got 10 years. She only served eight.

And because of her contribution, they were able to get Nick. Fine. But the discrepancy in the sentencing is egregious. Dude, I'm sorry. It's egregious. Nicholas Godejohn in his police interrogation confessed to everything a hell of a lot quicker than she did. They didn't need Gypsy to get Nick.

He was like, yeah, this way. I'm going to try to stay. I know I'm leaning one way. They didn't need Gypsy to get Nick and they didn't need to give her that sweet deal in order to testify against him. He confessed. All right, let's just wrap this up right now. Series over.

Damn it, Gypsy. So Gypsy's like, you don't got to put the gloves on. You're all right. And Nick's like, um, he is still going to be putting the gloves on, hon. He's like, I'm no dummy. Yeah. He's like, all right, dude. Thank you.

Let's not get crazy. Thank you. But I think he'll still be wearing the gloves. Give me the gloves. Yeah, I'm going to do that. And Gypsy says, it's almost time. Nick asks if he should call a cab. And she says he should, meaning call a cab to leave the hotel and get to her house.

Gypsy writes at 1.48 a.m., quote, by the way, the gloves are blue, and how long must I hold my ears, hon, end quote. Nick replies, quote, five at the most, dear, and the next text will be from him, end quote. Gypsy says in return, okay, darling, I'll talk to you when this is all done, end quote. She then says, quote, sir, will you text me when you're at the door with the gloves on, end quote. And then she says Nick should know that her mother is sleeping. At 2.07 a.m., Nicholas Godejohn texts Gypsy and says, quote, I'm here and you get your ass to the bathroom, you open the door, end quote. The last messages were sent by gypsy at 208 a.m when she said quote yes sir i'm going now sir breathes once end quote so this last sentence here this is the one

time in the conversation that i saw direction yeah from from nicholas yeah and it's just because he's victor now well he's he's victor. I'm sorry I apologize victor, but this is the one time where he's directed her on how this is going to go down I'm here you get your ass in the bathroom. You open the door. So That's it. Everything else has been kind of at gypsy's direction. So just want to point that out That's that's the one part where I think he's taking the lead You know other than that it's been all her but it I think he's taking the lead. Other than that, it's been all her. But it's not even Nick taking the lead.

It's Victor taking the lead. And that's why Gypsy is responding in this way. Once again, playing along. Yes, sir. No, sir. I'm going now, sir. Right? She's acting as if she is passive.

He's the dominant one. She is following his lead. But like you said, everything we've seen, it doesn't really appear to be the case. She's planned it all. She's telling him what to do. She's telling him when to leave. She's giving him instructions on where to find the knife and where to find the gloves. Planning what to do with it afterwards. But then of course, you know, and I think a lot of women understand this. There's times when you have to let your man feel like he's in charge. Do you interpret that breathe once as, and I'm sure anyone can interpret it. Like this, like, you know, like I'm, I'm,

I'm breathing. I'm ready. Breathes once, like breathes in. She's breathing once. Yeah. I'm going now, sir. I'm breathing once. Big breath in, like I'm ready. I almost took it as I'm going now, sir. Breathe once. Like, you breathe once before you go in and do it. What do you think about that? It's the same thing that they do when they're talking about, like, sex. Like, ooh, sits in your lap. Oh, looks up at you with

little girl eyes, you know. It's because she had it in, like, asterisks. Yeah, you're right. So, Nicholas Godejohn is now at the home of Dee Dee and Gypsy Rose Blanchard. He's let into the home by Gypsy. And once inside, she hands him the gloves. She hands him the duct tape and a knife.

According to Gypsy in a later interview, she didn't think he would actually end up killing her mother. Oh, really? Yeah, that's what she said. She didn't think he was going to go through with it. Did she know there were text messages at this point? I mean, yeah. Okay. know, she could just say whatever the hell she wants. Cause she changes, you know, that's why when Dr. Fabian said he talked to her for 15 minutes under 30 minutes, I'm like, okay. And, and, and another person that has talked to her the next day got a completely version, different version of events. She just kind of, um, comes up with things as she goes

that suit her in that moment and suit the narrative she's trying to spin in that moment. But yes, all the supporting evidence would say that you absolutely knew he was going to kill your mother. No doubt. Yeah, no doubt. So she she didn't think he was actually going to end up killing Didi, but she still went dutifully into the bathroom to shave her legs and she shut the door, leaving her sleeping mother alone with Nick's evil side, Victor. From her bedroom, Gypsy claims she could hear what was happening. Quote, I heard her scream once, and there was more screaming, but not like the kind in a horror film, just like a startled scream. And she asked, who was that in the bedroom?

And she called out to me, my name, about three or four times. And at that point, I wanted to go help her so bad, but I was afraid to get up. It's like my body wouldn't move. Then everything just went quiet. End quote. Your body wouldn't move, bitch, but you were able to shave your legs? Because she did. That's what she was doing in the bathroom while Nick was killing her mother. She was shaving her legs so she could be ready for Victor and to give Nick and Victor their reward, right? You couldn't move, but you were shaving your legs and painting your nails and come on, whatever. It's just horrible to hear that,

regardless of what you think of Dee Dee. I know. And I don't have the best opinions of her. Dee Dee should have faced her punishment in a court of law. Yeah, agreed. Not like this, not like this. Not like this. Calling out for her daughter.

Especially with the skepticism surrounding the abuse. I, for one, believe she was abused, but the severity of that abuse is probably not what Gypsy wants me to believe. And so, and I've said that. I've said that. But to think that this may be what happened, and I don't know why we would doubt it. It sounds horrific that she wakes up while being stabbed. This is exactly what happened

because Nick said the same exact thing. Yeah. He even said how many times that she had called out Gypsy's name. He said the same thing. She's calling out for her daughter as she's being killed. Horrible.

So she was aware. She was completely aware of what was happening. Of course, yeah. She woke up. Yelling for Gypsy. And then Gypsy said she heard her up yelling for gypsy and then and the gypsy said she heard her mother screaming out for her and then everything just went quiet

do you think i don't know how dark it was in there we may never know exactly like was there light in the room from the window or whatever but do you think there's a moment where he's looking at her killer no because she was on her stomach he stabbed her in the back but could she have turned her head or something just hear me out for a second where for some reason she's able to get a glimpse of Nick for a second and realizes it's Gypsy's boyfriend who's doing this to me. Like she's yelling for her to come get him, to stop him. Yeah, but I don't think that Dee Dee would have been like, oh, Gypsy planned this. She would have thought that Nick did it all on his own. I don't think that Dee Dee ever would have thought that Gypsy would have done this. I think that Gypsy manipulated Dee Dee into thinking that she loved her and had a good life with her and was happy with her. And that's understandable. Once again, victims of abuse will do this sometimes when they're forced to live with their abusers. It's like a Stockholm Syndrome thing, right? They'll go along with it. They'll make, you know, you don't want what's going to

happen if you start pushing back. If you start like making your abuser know that you're not happy there, then the abuse is going to skyrocket. But if you can just keep them happy and keep them calm and make them think you love them and you're happy with them, maybe the abuse won't be so bad. So I completely get that. So the question I was about to ask you, which you kind of just answered, you don't think it's possible that if you're right and Dee Dee was on her stomach and did not see who was doing it to her but could feel it, is it possible she was yelling gypsy because she thought it was gypsy behind her? No, I think she was yelling for help. I want to pose that question to you guys as well, because it's not just about us, right? What do you guys think about hearing this?

From what Stephanie's telling us, both Nicholas and Gypsy corroborated the story. So if this is true, why do you think Dee Dee was yelling out Gypsy's name? Really interesting question. We'll never have the answer to it. Only Dee Dee knows. Well, she's yelling her name as she's being stabbed. So I don't think she thinks that Gypsy's the one stabbing her. Well, I think tone would mean that Gypsy, Gypsy. Like, I think it absolutely could have been that. We will never know. I don't know.

I mean, I feel like you could tell by the weight of the person that's like kind of, because I believe he got on top of her. I don't know. I mean, it's a really. We're going to talk. He's going to go into detail about how it happened. Okay. In his police interview.

Wow. Like I said, this guy was an open book pretty much. Five minutes in, and I'll give a little bit of a spoiler of this. Well, he's sitting with the female detective and she's like, what are you doing here? And he's like, well, Gypsy got kicked out of her mom's house. And so I came to pick her up and bring her back home to live with me and my mom. And the detective is like, that's a lie. You're not being truthful. We know exactly what happened. Gypsy already told us, which by that time, that wasn't true either. That's a lie. You're not being truthful. We know exactly what happened. Gypsy already told us, which by that time that wasn't true either. That was a lie. The detective was lying to him, but she's like, we know everything. And immediately he's like, yeah, that's what happened. Like he doesn't, he, you know, where gypsies over here for like an hour being like, I have no idea what you're talking about. How could you think this about me? Nick, as soon as

he's like, okay, they kind of know. He's like, yep, let me tell you everything that happened. And he goes into great detail. And you can clearly tell this is somebody who's neurodivergent because he's talking about it conversationally. He's talking about it like, yeah, this is, you know, and I felt bad. And so, no, he spills the beans very quickly. He's completely 100% honest, too honest. Some people might say. I don't care who you are. You can't help but feel for Didi in this situation. I know. I agree. I agree. That's a bad one. That's a bad one. Let's take a pause. Take our last break. That was a lot. I know we have more to go as far as the detail, but just knowing that was the last words was her calling out for her daughter and her daughter was responsible for killing her. That's tough. Let's take our last break. We'll be right back. After the murder was complete, Nick and Gypsy both agreed that they had sex in her bed. They

had to push some stuffed animals out of the way before embarking on that effort. Nick Odejon mentions that he did not ejaculate. He says he has incredible stamina. And also he said he felt no pleasure. He says the same thing when he's talking to the detective about when they had sex at the movie theater because he says they did have sex for the first time in the movie theater bathroom. She had pulled him into the men's room. They had sex. He said the same thing. He didn't ejaculate.

He didn't really feel anything. But he has an incredible stamina. So that is what they did. We're going to go into more details about this and the other activities after the murder in the next episode. But after having sex, Gypsy and Nick, they start to clean up the house. They pack some things. They called a cab to bring them to Nick's hotel. They stayed there for two nights. And then Gypsy had the idea of mailing the knife, which Nick had used to kill her mother, to his house in Wisconsin, which they did. Nick and Gypsy then took a bus from Springfield to Big Bend, where Nick's mother, Stephanie Goldhammer, and stepfather, Charles Goldhammer, lived. Nick's mother picked them up from the bus station, and she was a bit taken aback when her son and his girlfriend were speaking as if Gypsy would be living there with them from that point on.

Nick's mother had not wanted him to go to Springfield. She didn't like him traveling alone. Basically, he didn't even ask her. She didn't know anything was happening until she saw a taxi pull up outside of her house and she saw Nick getting into it. So we're going to play some clips from Nick's mother's interview with the police. And we're going to play some clips from Nick's mother's interview with the police, and we're going to start with her kind of explaining what happened when she figured out he was getting in a cab to leave. So that's why we kind of, you know, treat him like when he was last doctor, he talked to them, they said his mind is probably always going to be 15, 16, right around there. So we always try to keep a close watch on him when

he said he wanted to go down there. I mean, I was a basket case. I'm like, you've never been out on your own, do you know what I mean? So, um, the last time he didn't tell us though. He got a cab and never said anything to us. And I saw a taxi pull up in my driveway. And I ran out there right as he was loading his stuff. And I'm like, where are you going? He's like, don't think you're gonna let me go i'm like well i mean why would you know it's not okay for you to just take off you don't tell us where you're going so i don't i just he's never done anything like this not nothing violent you know what i mean that's why i'm in shock okay i don't i think he's madly in love with this i know i know it's like even when i try to talk to him about, oh, you know, there's plenty of girls out there.

You're a good-looking kid. Why don't you meet a girl at church or something, you know? He just, I mean, that's the way it works, though, when you have what he has. It's like your mind focuses on one thing. Do you know what I mean? Yes, ma'am. So I never thought he'd do something like this though okay I don't I don't know I'm just hold it together because I don't want to lose it

right now he didn't want you to know he said that you would be a basket case his words yeah and that he said that to make sure that we let you know that he loves you and I told him that we would and he's really in love with this gypsy and he did tell me I mean I interviewed him for a long time and he told me that that he did it because he loves her and he wants to be with her he thought this was the only way that they could do that so that's the thing that sucks is that he's such a good kid. He's a good kid. He's not, you know, he's definitely not built for prison. I'm just in shock. There's no way we would have tied him to his bed. Yeah. Even when that cab pulled up, I got, I just got this feeling of what is, where is he going? What did you think about Gypsy? You know, it was weird because when I picked him up from the bus station.

What date did you pick him up? I want to say, like his ticket he told me was for Thursday morning. But like my husband said, he thought it was the next day, so maybe I could have got it wrong. But, you know, I even asked her, how's your mom doing? How is your, like, because I was told she was in a homeless shelter. Her mom kicked her out. So I asked her how her mom was doing. This might have been the first thing I asked her. And they, no big deal.

They acted like nothing. Oh, we just don't see eye to eye, you know. And then, how did the conversation go? It wasn't really long, but she kept saying, oh, ma'am, I'm a good, I'll clean and I'll get a job. And I'm thinking to myself, what are you talking about? You know what I mean? What are you talking about? I thought you'd maybe stay here for a week or something. I don't know. But, so it wasn't normal. My husband said when I was at work, she came down and made food. It was just weird.

Was her, did she ever say anything or do anything that made you question anything about her? No, no, because I just kind of hung out in Nick's room and whatever, watched TV or whatever. So, yeah, you can kind of hear Nick's mother, Stephanie, say it was weird. We like picked them up and I didn't know what had happened. Obviously, they said she was in a homeless shelter. They said she'd been kicked out. And I even asked, like, how's your mom? And they didn't say anything about it.

They seem completely normal. Like, oh, we just don't see eye to eye. You know, everything's fine. And then Gypsy kind of just assumed the sale once again and was like, oh, don't worry. I'll get a job. I'll cook and clean. I'll like help you out without even asking this woman. Like, is it okay

if I live with you? Yeah. Yeah. It does add to the layers of the relationship, but to me, it's kind of all just noise. So Stephanie also talks about how she and her husband had been trying to get Nick away from Gypsy for a while because there'd been some red flags based on what Gypsy was posting on Facebook. I mean, he says he gets lonely quick. Is that true? You know, he says, I guess he's been talking to her a couple of years that I know of. Okay. Talking to this Gypsy? Yeah. Okay. I mean, but I always, we always try to talk to him about dating someone around here or, you know.

Yeah. dating someone around here or you know yeah because like one of my friends let me know something was on Facebook about her saying she was wow are you kidding me I I had a long conversation with about it I was like are you kidding me hey I mean that I freaked me out right there. Do you think that she was trying to get pregnant? I don't know. We should probably give her a pregnancy test, huh? Oh, my God. Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, I'll let them know there. I'll get her Facebook account. It's on there. Okay, what was the name on her Facebook? There were, like, a couple of them, but hers, their names are like together on one of them. I know, you know, I know nothing about her. All I know is that I said, the first time I went down there, I said, Nick, you can't, if a parent doesn't want you around their kid, that's the way it is, you know?

That's her parent. Yeah. You know, what do I teach you? What respect you have to respect people. And, um. How old do you think she is? I was told she was 19. Okay. How old is she? Well, we have information. She's 17, 19, and 23. So. Now, the detective questioning Stephanie lets her know that there's more to Gypsy Rose than meets the eye.

And she sort of gives her the 30-second rundown on what Gypsy's life has allegedly been like. And Stephanie is shocked because she says she's, you know, known Gypsy for a while, like at least over a year. And as long as she's known Gypsy, Gypsy's been able to walk just fine. This is the situation with Gypsy is that her mom, it's my understanding her mom had her pretend like she was like 16 years old and they would push her around in a wheelchair and pretend like she couldn't walk. And this went on for many of years. And she would wear a mask and hats and tell them that she was going to treatment and they would raise thousands of dollars for her and her family. But actually she, am I correct in saying she walks just fine? Yeah.

She walks up and down the stairs. The stairs to our house, they go straight up. And she walks up and down those just fine. Yeah. She walks up and down the stairs. The stairs to our house, they go straight up. And she walks up and down those just fine. Yeah, I mean, if she would have fell down, I would have helped her up or something. But she was walking. When I picked them up from the bus station, she was walking. Yeah, so for years, they pretended

like she couldn't walk and pretended like she was ill. And just to collect benefits. I'm not really sure why but they would do the community our community would do fundraisers for them wow um so that's something you're going to see in the media our sheriff just made a media announcement about that because to let our our family our our families in our area were so concerned because these were supposedly really christian people and and here they're missing and then come to find out mom's dead and then come to find out now Nick's the one

that stabbed her. Now, I think this is kind of interesting because Gypsy has been talking to Nick's mom. She was even talking to Nick's mom while Nick was there in Springfield because Nick's mom was worried about where he'd gone. And so she messaged Gypsy and Gypsy's and you can see Gypsy text Nick and she's like, hey, your mom's worried about you while he's at the hotel waiting to kill her mother. And he's like, oh, you know, don't worry, I'll handle it. This isn't that. And Gypsy had talked to Nick's mother before. So this is an adult person who's not your parent. This is an adult person who could potentially help you. But Gypsy and Nick hid from Nick's mother that she could walk, that she was being abused, that she was being forced into a wheelchair. And once again, I don't see why that would have happened if Gypsy felt that

this was something that was happening to her against her will. If she felt that this was a person she could go to to get help, it would almost make it seem more likely that Stephanie would allow her to live there if she felt she was being abused at home. And Gypsy could have just easily said to Stephanie and Nick's stepfather, hey, this is what's happening. This is what's been happening to me. I can't go back there. I need your help. Take me in. And when the authorities come and when my mother comes, advocate for me, help me. But they hid this from Nick's mother because, you know, I've seen like cases where this happens to even young people, like 15 year olds, there's abuse happening, they're dating, the girl goes to live

with the boyfriend and his parents because she's like, hey, I'm being abused at home. And the parents help and they advocate for her with law enforcement. And there's just another person there to like validate and support what this person is saying and to keep her protected from being just snatched away by the mother again. You know, somebody to stand in the way, to stand at the door when Dee Dee shows up and says, hey, Dee Dee, we're not giving you Gypsy back. She told us what's been happening. We've called the police. You need to leave kind of thing. But instead of doing that, Nick and Gypsy hid this and acted like everything was fine. Then her mother just kicked her out. They didn't see eye to eye. Yeah, it's, I don't know. It's one of those things where in hindsight,

you can feel a certain way about it. For me, all of this, and I'm not saying it to just make an excuse. It is interesting to talk about it You want to know the different layers of it? But this is something that can be interpreted multiple ways by different people for wheat for me What really matters is the murder itself? This is contextual where it gives you a little bit of background on it but this can all be You could throw it all in the trash and it's not going to make a difference in the case

but it is interesting to hear from nick's mom and her perception of gypsy after the fact because she's sitting in that room i'm assuming at that point she knows what has just went down right obviously they already they know why he's there yes now that yes i mean in in retrospect looking at it sitting there it's tough and i'm sure she was trying to protect nicholas in a lot of ways and what she said but could have should have would have i don't even mean i don't even mean that day but like at any And I'm sure she was trying to protect Nicholas in a lot of ways and what she said, but coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't even mean that day, but like at any time in the past year when Gypsy's talking to Stephanie, she'd be like, hey, you know, I've told your son this, but like we could use the help. Like this is what's happening at home. This is horrible.

I want to leave. I want to run away, but I know my mom's going to come and get me. Like, can you help us? Right. Right. She never said that. No. me like can you help us right right she never said that no and you could put fork that up and that's why i'm saying it's doesn't really help or hurt gypsy as far as what we're talking about

it would help if she had said it i mean to hear that from another independent party but gypsy could just make the excuse that she was so concerned about other people knowing and how it could impact her at home with dd if dd found out that's what she'd always fall back on the fact of the matter is, Gypsy didn't talk about abuse like this with anybody but Nicholas Gordjian. Well, that's because she felt she could control Nick. So Stephanie asks about her son, Nick, obviously.

She's worried about him. She's worried he might hurt himself. She says he doesn't do well in these types of stressful situations due to his condition. She's very insistent on wanting this detective she's talking to and everyone else to know that her son was a good boy and she believes that he was wholly manipulated by Gypsy,

who she refers to as a beast, more than once. How is he doing? I mean, is he like, I don't know. I mean, I can see him trying to hurt himself or something. Not just because he can't take pressure, you know what I mean? Yeah. Has he ever tried to hurt himself before? No, but he gets really upset even when you have a normal conversation with him and there's

like you're trying to tell him something or scold him about something. He just can't take pressure. And what does he do? It just gets really huffy and puffy and like a kid would. Okay. So, I don't know. He is, um, he knows what he's done is wrong. Yeah.

Um, he knows that, or well he says that he would have never hurt anyone if it wasn't for Gypsy and his love for Gypsy. Um, he says she wanted him to do it. But he's doing fine. He cried a lot today when I spoke with him briefly. I had to tell him about the warrants and stuff and he cried a lot. Not necessarily about the charges. He's like okay. He appears okay with that part of it, but the part that he's never going to see Gypsy again, or you, or whatever. So she amazingly got in his head pretty well.

So those things he's struggling with, you know. I tried to explain to him everything I could. He took great comfort in knowing that I'll be where he's going in Missouri because he says that that way he can reach out and talk to someone and I will. I am a detective. I am law enforcement but I also am a mom and I have a heart and he's going to be there and if he wishes to speak with me he just fills out a little form. I explained all that to him what he needs to do to talk to me. Okay. And so I anticipate he'll probably do that once he gets there. Okay.

I don't know, you know. It's just a horrible situation. I mean, we were... They came up with a story of how this happened. Or they came up with a story, but their story didn't take too long to figure out what was wrong because we had plenty of evidence to counter everything that they tried to say at first but it didn't do not too much longer he just told what happened so how do you I mean does she

have like a record or anything no she's never been in trouble ever it's my understanding he's only been trouble about the McDonald's incident yeah yeah that's all I could find. Right, right, right. Is that the only time? That's the only time. Is there anything that you can think of that we didn't talk about that maybe we should have or anything that you can think of that would either help Nicholas or Gypsy or Danny? I just want everyone to know that as much as we tried to, like, make him not stop talking to her, but see that there are other people out there, there was no way we could do it.

Okay. He would just get upset. Has he been like this with other girls? No. No? No. Has he had a lot of girlfriends? Maybe one or two. I mean, he has girls that are friends, but, you know, he had, like, no. Has he had a lot of girlfriends? Maybe one or two. I mean he has girls that are friends, but you know, he had like one girlfriend who was in high school.

But um, no, I mean like I said, they've been talking for I'm gonna say at least a couple years. Okay, and how many times has he went to Springfield to see her? Just twice. And who's his doctor? He hasn't been to the doctor in a while. So the doctor that diagnosed him, it's in the papers. I'd probably have to pull the papers out somewhere. Okay. When's the last time you went to a doctor? That was probably around 19, maybe.

It was probably 19. Okay. And he functions just fine without his medicine? Yeah, the thing is with his medicine, when he was living with his dad, he was taking his medicine. And he just didn't want to take it anymore. He moved back in with me and he didn't want to take it anymore. But he seemed to be okay. He wasn't, you know, the man of use that I raised him. I mean, to me he didn't need it, but... Okay. Alright. And he was able to get through school just fine?

Yeah, I mean, obviously he was in LD classes, but... Okay. LD classes in high school? Yeah. Okay. I mean, he's a good... The thing is, he's a good kid. I've never had any problems with him. Has he ever became angry with you and assaulted you? Absolutely not. No way. He would never. he would never no way no way gets a little frustrated but when he gets frustrated he'll just cry okay um no way he's never been violent that's

what's so shocking i just the way the girl acted i mean how can you do something to your mother or lose your mother and just act like that i was like i'm just trying to wrap my head around did you notice anything odd about her voice just her southern draw okay you know like yes ma'am and uh but no was she high-pitchy or squealy or anything kind of like yeah but once she started telling me that she planned to live up my house and get a job, I was like, what? What is she talking about? You know what I mean? Okay, that's not going to happen, but I don't know. Sometimes you try and do things for your kids because you just want them to be happy. Sure. And as much as we tried to get him to just... So why were you guys friends with her on Facebook? I wasn't. She just, he asked me to, you know, she wants to ask questions about, you know, whatever. Fine. I don't have any conversations with her on Facebook. Give me a break. Okay. You know, absolutely not. Okay. But she was talking about wanting to get pregnant.

Yeah, one of my friends called me. She was like, Steph, you need to go on Facebook. I was like, I know my friends since I was like 15 years old. So whatever she says, I do. We go way back. So that's when I was like, okay, something's, she's not okay. Something's not right there, you know. But trying to tell him that, it's like he gets all defiant and, you know,

defensive, I should say. Did they ever tell you they were getting married or anything like that? God, no. I mean, we probably would have had time to his better, so. Okay. That's the thing, he's a normal-looking kid. I mean, he has, but, you know, he's a normal looking kid. I mean, he has, but you know, he's just selling himself short.

Even like the servers at my work would be like, he's a cute kid, you know? Well, fortunately he has this beast that's been talking to him for a couple years. And like I said, he sets his mind to something. It's just like, he can't focus on other things. I mean, if you learn about it, that's a little bit about it. If you focus on something, you can be really good at it.

Okay. But, yeah, he wasn't having dating anyone else. I'm like, let's go to church. You might find a nice church girl, you know? All I can do for you. I almost feel like he's safer. That's really, really bad to say, that I almost feel like he's safer. Yeah. It's really, really bad to say, but I almost feel like he's safer now than having contact with her on a regular basis, knowing what I know now. Yeah.

Did you, how long had it been that you were trying to discharge the relationship? I'd say months. Okay. You're a good looking kid. I mean, you're a good-looking kid. I mean, you're a nice kid. Would he always talk about her? Um, just that he was always online with her, or she'd send him, I mean, she'd send him, like, a ring in the mail or something, and always, I love you, and this and that, and, like, you don't even know we're in a relationship on, um, the internet is not a relationship what kind of ring did she send me i don't know so she probably got it out of a bubble gum machine i don't know okay but um

i'm sure he could tell you you know i just it's really sad because he is a good kid and he's a good-looking kid and for him to ruin his life over that i'm sorry but she's a beast yeah I don't even I don't know well that's what we know so far my younger son who loves his big brother you know yeah he's the only brother he has and trying to explain to him you're probably not going to see Nick and he doesn't understand right I understand that and it's weird because I almost feel like Nick's safer right now than having her orchestrating him doing anything. You know, it was like everything she said, he would, no, no, you know, okay, baby, or whatever.

Oh, my God. I just. Do you know how they met? No, it just had to be on the Internet. That's all I know. Yeah, that's what they told us. It was at, like, a dating site. It was, internet, that's all I know. Yeah, that's what they told us, was at like a dating site. So, it was like Christian-free dating or something like that.

Really? Wow. But some of the items we collected from his room was of course the clothing that he wore whenever he killed Dee killed the knife. Oh my gosh, I would have even thought anything. I would have freaking grabbed him and taken him right down here and said, take care of this. Yeah, absolutely. I think there was a little around four to five thousand dollars of cash that they had stolen from the lady that our mom left. We took some of this computer stuff, some of their love notes, clothing, cell phone, I knew that he was like madly in love with her. Why? I had no idea. But there was no way I could comprehend him doing this. Like I said, he's always been a good kid. He's never given me trouble. Good-natured kid, you know? He definitely did it.

He definitely told us exactly how he did it. Well, yeah. It matches. He'll be honest. He's honest. He's honest. And it matches everything he said matches our scene and everything and it's consistent and um

is she like i mean is she taking any sort of you know she like well okay it was me too, or she jumped on it all? Um, she takes some responsibility, but not much. Not much at all. Like I heard someone say, they said something on news, like he raped her. I'm like, it may break, you know, a couple months before that. My friend's calling me saying she wants to have a baby with him. I mean, come on. That statement right there, she made on a Facebook post. Did you see the Facebook post where it says, okay, that's right.

Well, on Dee and Gypsy's Facebook post that they share, there are some horrible messages that were posted on there that said like I believe that they slashed her and like I slashed her. I killed her and then I raped the girl and the girls did, too. Well, those all were actually posted by Gypsy. So at the end of that clip, you could hear the detective reference some inflammatory Facebook posts that were posted to Gypsy and Dee Dee's joint account. And we talked about that in episode one. One of the posts read, that bitch is dead, which is what led the authorities to Gypsy and Nick in the first place after the location of the post was tracked. And the second one was a post that it kind of made it seem like it was

coming from Nick. And he was saying he had slashed Dee Dee and then raped her innocent daughter, Gypsy. And then Gypsy would later claim she had posted these things so that the police would find her mother's body, which they did on June 14th, 2015. But yes, that's what the detective is referring to. And Gypsy does make some claims that after the murder, the sex that she and Nicholas shared was not consensual. Well, I won't, and they kind of talked about that in that video, just to kind of summarize for me, you can take what you want out of that interview. It's obviously a mother who's hurting, who has a son, who's neurodivergent, who's had some issues,

and it appears to her, at least, that he was taken advantage of. And I'm sure that's very difficult for her to be in that room knowing that someone, in her opinion, took advantage of her son and her son's probably never going to be free again. So I can, as a parent, I can empathize with that. But as far as the context of this case, this investigation, that's just more to give layers to who Nick was, his mother, how she viewed him. Again, her view is going to be skewed. She says he would never hurt anyone, that he's always trustworthy. That may be true. Or it may not be. She said, you know, he's a good boy. He's never been violent. I'm sure those things-

He only has a McDonald's incident that we know of. Yeah. I'm sure those things are true to her knowledge. And I think that it's fair because we both agree as well. She saw the relationship unfold and she's always felt that there was something off about Gypsy and trying to get Nick away from her because they didn't think that Gypsy was super healthy for him. And you and I can kind of look at their dynamic and say, we think Gypsy was manipulating him. So it's a fair assumption. I'm going to say something else too, in case it's not overtly obvious. I don't necessarily think Nick's a victim here either. I know he had a low IQ. I know he had autism, but he's got some demons in him as well.

And he's got some issues as well because he was willing to do this. He knew right from wrong. He was using a different character to carry this out. I don't want anyone to feel like I'm presenting this as poor Nicholas. Gypsy manipulated him. She definitely did. She took advantage of the situation, but Nicholas could have easily said no, and he chose not to. And he is the one who stabbed Didi multiple times. So I got to tell you, I have feelings about Gypsy. I don't want to bury the lead. We got more to go. We're going to give her final thoughts at the end, but I would be perfectly content just where I am right now. And this may change with both Nicholas and Gypsy still being in prison, ensuring that

they never did this to anybody else. That's just where I am right now based on what I know. And there's still more to go, but I'm not trying to paint Nicholas based on what I just saw in this video is this innocent party who just got taken advantage of. I don't believe that. So on that note, I want to, and before we wrap up this episode and give our final thoughts, I want to address something that stems off of what you just said. And it's something that Nick's mother alluded to multiple times during this interview. She said that her son had never been like this with another girl.

It was like he was obsessed. Any suggestion that he could do better or that Gypsy wasn't the most healthy relationship option for him was met with defensiveness. And she said he becomes obsessed with things. This is just how people with his condition are. And that's absolutely true. His parents knew that they could do nothing or say nothing to discourage Nick from being with Gypsy because it seemed like she was the only thing that he could focus on. And this is actually a common thing in people with autism and ADHD, in neurodivergent people, the tendency to hyperfixate on things or people. According to verywellmind.com, quote, hyperfixation is a clinical term for an intense focus on a specific topic, activity, item, or person to the point that other things are ignored. Individuals who experience hyperfixation often become so focused on or absorbed by the object

of their hyperfixation that they may overlook or neglect anything unrelated to their hyperfixation. Dr. Jacqueline Harpers, a licensed psychologist, shared, quote, during a period of hyperfixation, a person throws themselves fully into their special interest, often to the point that it feels like everything else disappears, end quote. And this article goes on to explain that many people have hobbies and topics that they're interested in or passionate about, but when someone experiences an interest in the neurotypical sense, they enjoy talking about their interest or doing the activity, but they're able to easily shift to something else. They generally do not

become so immersed in their interest that they fully lose track of time, forget to eat, or struggle to end that task. Hyperfixation is much more intense and can lead to losing track of time and of one environment. So according to charliehealth.com, quote, for some hyperfixation is focused on a person leading to overwhelming thoughts and feelings that make it tough to concentrate on other parts of life. And some examples of this might be daydreaming or fantasizing about that person all the time, putting that person on a pedestal, building them up in your head, even if you've only met them once or twice or not at all. You might overstep boundaries with this person. You might ignore your own needs or responsibilities because of this hyper fixation on this person. You might ignore other relationships with family and friends or deprioritize your other relationships with family or friends. You might feel jealous if

your person spends time with their other relationships and you might spend so much time fixated on the other person, what they want, what they need, doing things for them, that you lose your own identity and lose interest in the things that were once important to you in the past. This is very, very common. So it does kind of seem like for Nicholas, Gypsy was his hyper fixation. Everything was about her. He talked to her constantly. If she didn't answer him right away, he got worried. He got stressed. He was anxious, like somebody took his security blanket away. He would have done anything for her. And he literally says this in his police interview, and you'll see when we talk about this next

week, he's like, I live for her. I worship her. She's everything, everything to me. So of course, yeah, he was going to do anything he could to keep her, especially when she made it seem sometimes like, well, if this doesn't happen, then you don't get me. He needed to get her at all costs and he would have blown up his entire life to do it. And he did blow up his entire life to do it. And she threw him under the bus the first second she got. Yeah. And that's where I

leave this episode. This hyper fixation based on the autism seems pretty accurate to me when we're describing Nick and we're thinking about what we're talking about. I think it probably applies, which to me only emphasizes the fact even further that this type of person, if they can become so hyperfixated that they can kill someone for another, that person is a danger to society if they're willing to go to that extreme. Because not everybody does. Not everybody does. There's lots of people who have autism, are on the spectrum, have ADHD, hyperfixate on people.

They call it limerence. Sometimes hyperfixate on, you know, trains, for instance. You know, somebody on the spectrum I know loves trains and it's like all they want all their life. All they talk about is trains. Yep. But if you're going to kill someone so you could see the train. That is, that is a threat.

That's a problem. That's a problem. That's a sign of something deeper that's troubled and needs to be fixed and addressed. You might say the same thing about Gypsy, you know, even without a hyper fixation, the fact that she would go as far as to manipulate somebody and make this person think that she loved him and she was going to be with him forever in order to kill her mother. Yeah. If you could do that. Yeah, no, I I think we've we can put a pin on Nick. And now we transition to Gypsy. Based on what I've heard in this episode so far, not looking good. I did not know it was to this extreme.

It was not this descriptive. Now, I know it's going to change a little bit from here, because obviously now she's trying to weasel her way out of responsibility. So you got to start taking what she's saying with a grain of salt. But what really matters to me me and not to kind of diminish the episodes coming in the future, these text messages, you have to remember they were sent with the intention on them never being seen by us. That's why they're so important. They were meant for Nick's eyes only. And if Gypsy had it her way, those messages never would have seen the light of day. So when you read those messages, that is her true feelings in those moments.

And that's why I'm putting so much emphasis on them. So as we go forward, we're still going to listen to everything being said, but to bring it back to what you asked me earlier, as far as Gypsy and Nicholas's mother and never mentioning to anyone, whether it was Nicholas or her mother, that she was in fear of her life and that the reason behind, the motive, if you will, behind this killing was to save Gypsy. If at any point I had seen that expressed, this might be a very different conversation as we end this episode. But from where I'm sitting, I didn't see any examples of that. Well, like you said, they didn't think that we were going to see those messages. Correct. And that's why they're significant. And yes. That's your truth. Yeah. That's your truth. Yeah. Why would she? And like I said, she could have used that to

manipulate him. You know, she could have, but just using the fact that they wouldn't be together was enough. And she knew that. And so she didn't need to go to that extreme. But she could have. It would have helped her case. But if she was truly in fear for her life, you'd think that would be something she would be talking about on a regular basis. I'm going to leave this episode with a little Big Brother reference for my Big Brother OGs out there. A little behind the scenes about Big Brother. Okay? Little behind the scenes about big brother. Okay When you see the diary rooms and we're breaking down

The game that you're currently seeing being played on the tv, right? It shows the game then it'll it'll cut to me in the diary room explaining what i'm doing in the competition and what my strategy is and what my Agenda is whether i'm going to throw it or i'm going to carry through with it. That's retrospectively The the game has already happened. I know the outcome. So when I'm in that diary room and I'm telling you what my strategy is, guess what? I can base my narrative of what I'm telling you of how I did in the competition. For example, if I go in there with the intent on winning it, but I fall on my face in the first thing, I'm going to come into

the diary room and say, that was the plan guys. I was throwing it. So what Gypsy says from this point forward, you have to approach it and view it through that lens. She knows what has happened, what transpired, how it was done, where the bodies are buried, so to speak, what text messages were sent. So she can manipulate and mold her defense around that. And so although we're going to listen to her, you have to approach it with that level of skepticism, not because I don't like her, not because I don't want to believe her, but when you have these other text messages that were done with the intention of not

being seen by us, it's hard to overcome that. As an investigator, it's going to be very hard for you to convince me you didn't want Dee Dee to die and that your motive behind the killing was more related to you being with your boyfriend opposed to being safe from your mom and the potential for killing her. It's a big mountain to climb. Good luck with it. But I'll hear her out for the next couple episodes. We'll watch the interrogation footage. We'll see what happens. But this is, she's got a big hole to dig herself out of right now. Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's going to do it for us guys.

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