Crime Weekly - S3 Ep249: Dee Dee Blanchard: The Interrogations of Gypsy and Nicholas (Part 6)

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

A small, quiet town in Missouri. A devoted mother caring for her chronically ill daughter. A story of love, sacrifice, and survival. Or so it seemed. But behind closed doors, beneath the layers of sympathy and kindness, there was a dark secret waiting to be uncovered. For nearly two decades Dee Dee Blanchard told the world that her daughter, Gypsy Rose, was dying. Leukemia, muscular dystrophy, seizures, vision and hearing issues, the list of illnesses and medical concerns was endless. Gypsy, a seemingly happy little girl with a huge smile, was bound to a wheelchair, fed through a tube, and showered with the attention and support of everyone around her, but no one really knew the horrifying truth. It seemed that Gypsy was perfectly healthy. She could walk. She didn't need a wheelchair to get around, and it appeared that she was being kept a prisoner in her own body, in her own home, by her own mother. The story goes that years of abuse, manipulation, and lies built up until they all came crashing down in the most unthinkable way: Murder. On the night of June 14, 2015, Dee Dee Blanchard was found stabbed to death in her home, and the prime suspect? Dee-Dee's innocent, smiling, happy, and allegedly disabled daughter, along with the man that Gypsy had been having a very adult relationship with. But nothing about this case is as it appears to be. This is the story of Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping! 2. SundaysForDogs.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get 40% off your first order! 3. LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get 20% off ANYTHING you order! 4. ZipRecruiter.com/CrimeWeekly - Try Zip Recruiter for FREE!

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Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. Today, we are jumping into part six of the Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard case, and it's going to be a long episode, so we are going to jump right in. Today, we are listening to and discussing the police interviews of Gypsy Rose Blanchard and Nicholas Godejohn, and we're going to compare and contrast. And there's going to be a lot to discuss because I had to watch all of these interviews multiple times.

And they're each, I think, two and a half hours each. So I had to figure out what was the most important and cut it down. And yeah, it was all good. I mean, these were police interrogations where from start, it was action-packed from start to finish. So it was very hard to narrow down which

clips to put in here to discuss. But I think I did it. And I think this is going to be Derek's first time seeing a lot of this footage. So I'm excited because especially after we discussed the messages between Gypsy and Nick last week, I think this is going to really add to that and really round out what Gypsy's motive possibly was here. So, I mean, we're going to get right into it. We don't have a lot to talk about beforehand. I just want to say that even looking at the circumstances of Gypsy's police interview versus Nick's police interview, you can already see a difference in the way that they were treated, in the way they were perceived, even though at that time the police had no way of knowing who did what, who actually held the knife that killed Dee Dee Blanchard.

They didn't know what had happened. They hadn't talked to them yet. Nicholas was put in an interrogation room. He was sat at a table. He was cuffed. Gypsy's in a room with a nice couch. She's given a stuffed animal to hold and play with, even though she's a 23-year-old grown-ass woman. They talk to her like she's a little girl. They give her a blanket when she's cold. They're consistently checking in on her to make sure she's okay, see if she's hungry, see if she has to use the bathroom. It's a very drastic difference in how these two people were treated during their police interviews. And at this point, both Gypsy and Nick are being held at the Waukesha County Sheriff's Department. But they were going to be questioned by two Greene County, Missouri detectives, Stan Hancock and Angela Maholy.

So as Gypsy's waiting in her interrogation room, she's got to wait because Stan and Angela haven't gotten there yet from Missouri, right? So she's waiting. She's chatting with a young police officer who'd been assigned to stand outside of the open door of the room that she was being kept in. And keep in mind, at this time, Gypsy had no idea that she was suspected of anything, right? The police tracked the Facebook post to Nick go to John's house. They bust in. They arrest them. They take them away.

And that's where we end up. And she doesn't really know exactly what's going on. But I think she is thinking to herself, they're never going to think I did anything. They're never going to think that I could possibly be guilty of something like this. And she's got to sort of pretend that she doesn't even know her mother's dead. And so that's the way that she's acting. She's playing dumb. She has no idea what happened to her mother. And even though this young police officer standing outside of her door is not going to be questioning her in regards to the case, he's just watching her until the Greene

County Sheriff's Office people get there. Gypsy starts to build her narrative with him. She starts to tell him the story that she and Nick had agreed upon, right? Because they had agreed on a lie that they were going to tell if they got caught. And the lie was going to be that Dee Dee had kicked Gypsy out. Gypsy's wandering the streets alone. And so Nick takes a bus to Springfield so that he can bring Gypsy home to live with himself and his parents in Wisconsin because she's been removed from the house by Dee Dee. She has no place to stay. That's the the narrative that they had agreed on. And that is the way she starts with this police officer.

Are you ready to dive in? I am just to put a disclaimer on it because to answer your question or at least the assumption you're under, I have not seen any of this footage other than what we've already shown throughout the series. Which was very brief, yeah. Very brief. So I'm starting to feel a certain way. I'm still coming in here giving everyone a fair shake. I'll call it, I'll call balls and strikes. I will say some of you may not love when we have B-roll. I know because you voice it in the comments, but I think it's really necessary here. Stephanie can tell you how she feels about these people. And listen, I don't think I'm going out on a limb here. Stephanie is not team gypsy. And so the argument could be made that as she's presenting this

interrogation to you, that she's biased, right? And so to separate her from that and to separate me from that, why not just hear it directly from the horse's mouth? So you, this is why I would suggest we love when you guys listen on audio, but even if you listen on audio, go over and watch the interrogation footage from this episode, because it's not only about what they say, it's how they say it. And it's also the body language of when they're saying it. So you don't have to be a body language expert to just pick up on basic behavior as they're being interviewed. And so if you go watch the footage for yourself, you can come to your own conclusion. So it is going to be a lot of B-roll tonight. It's absolutely necessary. I would strongly

recommend if you can go watch the video version so you can kind of see what we're saying. If I bring up certain things about their positioning, how they're saying it, the position of their eyes, we can't really see their eyes, but the way their heads are facing, how their legs are crossed or not crossed, all that can be important, especially when we're developing a baseline on what's normal for them and what may be out of the ordinary for them as the interview starts to include questions that could implicate them in a crime. And I guarantee you, I guarantee you that the majority of people listening to this have not seen these interrogation videos. I guarantee you.

Even people who are on Team Gypsy, you know, they may not. So this is going to be important. I don't see how you could be on Team Gypsy and see these interrogation videos. There's that bias. That's all I'm going to say. There's the bias. And that's why we're not allowing you to translate these transcripts. Because you're going to come up with this whiny, really like victim-y voice for Gypsy.

And it's all sarcastic. I don't know what I did, officer. There you go. So you're out. You're fired. What I'm saying is, okay, the reason I came into this series feeling some sort of way about Gypsy is because I've already seen this footage. I've already saw that. I already read the messages.

I already knew all that stuff. And that's why it makes it hard to be in complete support of her as this innocent bystander. We can see. That's all. We can see. We're on episode six. Oh, dude, wait until you're done watching the footage. You'll be right there with me, my friend.

Maybe I will, but we will get there. But yes, to answer your question, I'm ready to go. We got a lot to cover. Let's all see it for the first time. We're going to play this first clip and we're going to obviously stop and we're going to react to some of these things because it calls for it, right? But this is Gypsy pretending she doesn't know that her mother was just stabbed to death,

acting like everything's peaches and cream. I'm originally from Missouri, and I came here. My mom kicked me out of the house. She was like, well, it's time you, you know, grow up. So I got out on my own, and called my boyfriend and he came he lives in Big Bend and um he came down to Springfield to pick me up so anyway we take our home bus and everything seems fine and we got our bus got delayed a little bit but um we got here okay and then um a couple days went by perfectly normal so all of a sudden we um we wake up to a loud loud loud knock at the door and like

walkershaw county police um you're under arrest and well he's the only one that's under arrest. I'm not really sure where I'm here. And um, and anyway they took us and I'm here. And I don't know what's going on with him. Okay. Sorry I can try and... It's okay....worry her. She's one of the detectives who knows a lot more than I do. Right. Then I had to go to the hospital and get some medicine because I have a seizure disorder. Okay. That's what kind of knocked me out. Busy day, huh? It's kind of weird, though, people seeing you in handcuffs, they give you this weird look,

and I'm like, I didn't do anything. Like, okay, I didn't kill anybody, I don't do drugs, I's also sprinkling in things, right, to distance herself from Nicholas Godejohn. The first word she says to someone at this police station is basically like, you know, I don't know what I did. Like, I didn't do anything wrong. She's like, he got arrested, not me. You know, I don't know what I'm here for. And then it was so funny because, and I know it might be hard to hear, and hopefully Shannon can clean up some of this audio. But she's like, it's so weird.

People see you in handcuffs and you just want to be like, I didn't do anything. I didn't kill anybody. I don't do drugs. I'm a good girl. It looks like there's some transcripts underneath it, too, like captions underneath it. Yeah, there's some. They're not super good, but she's a good girl. She never killed anybody. But allegedly, she has no idea that her mother is even dead. So why is she even saying, why would you even say that? You're giving yourself away. She also mentions she has a seizure disorder and she needs medicine. So it's convenient. She claims that her mother made her pretend to be sick and she was never sick and none of these things were actually true. But when it suits her, when she wants to

appear weak and vulnerable and the victim, oh, she has a seizure disorder and she's very sick and she needs help. So it's like you could say she learned to use this to garner sympathy from people through her mother. But you would also say, hey, your mother's not here making you do this anymore. So why are you? And what I also want to specifically say is in none of these clips and in none of these interviews with Gypsy or Nick, will you hear either of them say, her mother abused her. Her mother made her pretend to be sick. Her mother did. Yes. Her mother made her go in a wheelchair. Nick is going to say, you know, briefly, he'll say something like, yeah, her mother forced her to be in a wheelchair

when she was at home, but never are they like, oh, she abused her. She made her do all these medical procedures. Gypsy never says this to the police ever, ever. In fact, all she says is, I love my mother. She's my best friend. We had our issues, but we worked through them. I would never have done anything. And you'd think at this point, when it's all said and done, you're sitting in the police station, your mother's dead. If you were going to come out and be like, you know what? Yeah, I did do it.

We did this. But I was being abused. I was being harmed. I had to save myself. They never say that ever. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I was going to say that much later as I start to hear her actual interrogation, I will say here, it's a slippery slope, right? Because you have basically what it appears to be maybe a patrolman was outside the door guarding her. And she, she more than likely has not been Mirandized yet. So

anything she says at this point, yes, it's on camera. It can be used. But that law enforcement officer has to make sure he doesn't elicit some type of response based on even just a basic question. And you can tell he's trying to avoid. He's trying to avoid that landmine. He could screw up an entire murder investigation. So he did the right thing here. And she's voluntarily putting this information forward because she doesn't know his standard, his standing in the police department. She's trying to get ahead of the narrative. She's probably thinking, oh, he'll relay what I'm saying there. I'm trying to get people on my side. I will say just hearing this little bit based on what was

described last episode, it is a tough pill to swallow because if everything is the way it was described By nicholas go to john and even her she clearly knows why she's there And as you just mentioned and I think it's a very strong argument If she comes in there and said and she's crying saying I know why we're here. I know why we're here. I know what happened But here's the reason why I knew this was coming Here's the reason why much stronger argument for her. But she's going with the, gee golly, I don't know anything. If you're to believe everything that we've heard, it's a tough video to watch.

It's manipulative. You know she's bullshitting. Yeah. So we'll keep going. We'll keep going. But that's my first thought. All right. Well, Gypsy and this police officer keep chatting for a while. She asks him, are there any movie theaters around? Because if she's going to move to a place, she has to make sure there's a movie theater because she really wants to see the new Star Wars movie that's coming out in December. Right. If you're going to move to someplace, Gypsy, you are moving to someplace. It's called prison. All right. It's called prison. She's like literally

so delusional at this point and thinks that she's so good at getting her way and getting out of things that she's thinking, I'm just going to, you know, put on a high pitched voice, do a little crying, act like I have no idea what's happening. They're going to release me and I'm going to be living here in Waukesha County going to see the Star Wars movies. So they then begin talking about Universal Studios. Gypsy brags about all the cool things that she and her mother were able to do when they went to places like this because of her condition. She also gives him a master class on Harry Potter and the different wizarding houses.

This past January, I got a chance to meet some of the cats. You did? Because my mom and I went on vacation to Universal Studios. Okay, so the Harry Potter Leisure? Yes. And it was the Harry Potter Expo. So I got to meet the girl that plays Luna. I got to meet the twins, the Weasley twins.

Really? Dumbledore and Hagrid. Wow. That must have been pretty cool. It was. The twins are very nice. I mean they're all very nice. The twins actually fit their personality on the movie. Oh really? Basically the same people? That's awesome. My mom and I bought the exclusive package and that gives you one special night that they shut down the parks to where you and only the people that

bought that package are let in it's closed off to everyone else so it's like the vip experience and they have this special um event where they bring food out and you can go walk around eat free ice cream and it's just the whole thing to yourself. Really? How many people do they give that to? Is it noticeably less crowded? I think it's a hundred packages that you sell. And they had a lot of people that didn't get the experience that me and my mom did because a lot of people were rushing to get the autographs.

On the package it said that you get a guaranteed meet and greet. That's actually not true. And Pottermore was there, the website, and they were sorting people. I got sorted into Hufflepuff. Hufflepuff. And for years I've been a Gryffindor. I was having a major breakdown of it. I'm like, no, I'm a Gryffindor. Every quiz I've taken is Gryffindor. I cannot be Hufflepuff.

And the funniest thing is that you would think that Gryffindor is righteous and they do the right thing. And they're brave, but they're also good. But a lot of people tell me they're more like Slytherin than you would think. It's just there are more bad wizards that come from Slytherin than Gryffindor. I think I've heard that. Yeah.

So I wanted to insert this clip, and there's a lot more I could have inserted, but this specific clip, because I want people to understand, Gypsy loved the benefits that she got from the con that her mother was running. She loved it. She felt it made her feel special. It made her feel like, oh, I'm not one of these peons that has to go into the park when all these other people. I get to go in special. It's a special VIP thing. Like she was very big on that. And also I wanted to show you how casually and happily she can just chat away, knowing not only that her mother's dead, but what happened to her mother, heard it happening to her mother. This is not a normal, I think, way to be in the wake of something like that. Yeah, I think when you have more context, like I just said in the previous clip, when you know what's already transpired and you hear her talking about this in this way,

kind of lighthearted, it does put a bad taste in your mouth, but I don't think we have to look too deep as to why she's doing it. First off, and this is an excuse, we have to remember that this is someone, and there's no disputing this, I think everyone agrees with this, this person is someone who is working at a lower emotional intelligence than her age dictates. That is true. There's no doubt about it, whether it's the chromosomal disorder, whether it's her upbringing or combination of the two, it's a fact, okay?

So there's probably some truth into here, what she's talking about, but there's no doubt in my mind, at least, she's trying to make herself more relatable, more friendly to this officer because she's building a rapport with them, hoping that'll correlate with the other officers. They'll be like,

oh, we think she did something. He'll be like, I talked to that girl for an hour. She's the sweetest little button I've ever seen. There's no way she could have done this. She's putting her pieces on the chessboard very intentionally and carefully. There's no doubt, regardless of what you think about Dee Dee, one thing that was passed on to Gypsy and that was conveyed to her and also instilled in her throughout her childhood was how to lie Was how to garner sympathy She's done it her whole life gypsy rose

She's done this with people time and time again to the point where they've gotten free houses free Trips and a bunch of news attention. This is what she does This is her wheelhouse. She is doing exactly what she's done for most of her childhood now into her adulthood, and she's pulling from the playbook. No doubt in my mind. We're going to keep going, but before we do, let's take our first break. McCrispy's strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in McDonald's history.

Dip it in all the sauces. Dip it in that hot sauce in your bag. Dip it in your McFlurry. Your dip is your business. McCrispy strips at McDonald's. All right, we're back. So then, you know, Gypsy's chatting with this police officer. Then eventually Detective Sergeant Stan Hancock from Greene County arrives to talk to Gypsy, who told him she was 19 years old and that her date of birth was June 27th, 1995.

Even though Gypsy has since claimed that she's she found out how old she actually was long before that. And that was one of the reasons she was so mad at her mother. She still gives a false age to the police. So in his report, Detective Hancock notes that Gypsy had a hospital bracelet on at that time. And that hospital bracelet said that her birth date was July 27th, 1995, which would have made her, hey, 23, her actual age. And he's like, you know, well, what's going on with this? And she's like, I don't know. No idea. I have no idea.

So Gypsy told Detective Hancock she had no idea why she was there at the police station. She said she'd been homeschooled, but she could still read. Her comprehension level was good. You know, that's when they Mirandized her. And then early on in the interview, Gypsy told Detective Hancock that she did not have a cell phone. He then notes in his report that later in the interview, she stated she did have a cell phone, but she only used it for Yahoo Messenger and social media sites. So she lied. Now, once again, at the beginning of the interview, Gypsy told Detective Hancock that her mother would never let her use the computer because it wasn't safe. But then he notes in his report that later on in the interview, Gypsy told him she'd met her boyfriend, Nick

Godejohn, online and the way she communicated with him was by using her mother's laptop. Okay? So she lied. Then Detective Hancock informs Gypsy that her mother is dead. And we've already seen a bit of this clip. But I want to play it again as a reminder. Especially now after we've seen and read the messages that she was sending to Nicholas Godejohn before the murder. Yeah, well, this goes back to what I was just saying.

She's used to running this playbook, but in those circumstances, most of the time, she's been given the benefit of the doubt. People just believe her because of her appearance, because of what they know. Because they're not police officers. They are not detectives. Yes. She has not been in this environment before where everything's going to be fact-checked and corroborated and going to be compared and contrasted to other statements

as well as her actual physical activity when it comes to search history, all that stuff. So although she's a good liar, she hasn't played this game before, and it's showing. But yeah, let's see that clip. And I want you to understand that you need to be honest with me. And if you're involved in anything, it's not about ready to tell you, then you need to tell me. Okay?

Your mom's dead. Okay? Now, what I want to ask you is, your mom's passed away. Okay? And she's deceased. All right? Now, what I want to ask you, did you have involvement in this? Okay?

Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Listen to me for just a second, okay? I want you to understand something, okay? You remember the snowball that we talked about? You remember the pencil that we talked about? I want to demonstrate something with a pencil here, okay? Look at me.

Look at me for just a second, okay? Sometimes people go along. You know how you got a pencil? You got the lead here and you got the eraser right here, right? You know what I'm talking about? You've seen a pencil, right? You've used a pencil before, right? Okay?

And when you write with a pencil, you write your own story, right? Okay? And you take that pencil and you're writing along with your story. Well, sometimes some people make mistakes when they write stuff down, don't they? We've all made mistakes. You've made mistakes mistakes you've made mistakes i've made mistakes right have you ever made a mistake in your life and i've made mistakes in my life hang on just a second okay when you're writing this stuff down all of a sudden you make a mistake well what do you do with that mistake you take that pencil you flip it over and you

start erasing stuff okay and you erase it and you re-correct it you take that pencil and you flip it over and you start erasing stuff, okay? And you erase it and you re-correct it. And you take that pencil and you rewrite your history or story, okay? And I think that's where you're at with this tonight, okay? That you have a chance to rewrite your story. And I think that that's what you can do is you can rewrite your story tonight, okay?

Like I said earlier, I don't think you're a bad person. I really don't. I don't think that that's you at all. And you're not out here, you know, doing things that are so bad that nobody wants to talk to you, nobody wants to be around you. I don't think that's you. Okay? But what I do think, okay, what I do think is there's some stuff going on that you and I need to talk about. And why these things happen, okay? And that's where we're at with this.

Okay? Now, I want you to understand something. Why these things happen okay, and that's where we're at with this okay? Now I want you to understand something That you need it you need to be look at me. Okay. Give me for just a second, okay? You're in a situation where you can help yourself right now Okay, and that's what you need to do. Okay, you've got to help yourself Okay, because the more and more you let that snowball roll down that hill and get bigger, what's going to happen is it's going to explode. That's what's going to happen with you, you know? You don't want that, do you?

I don't think you do. I wouldn't want that. So we've got to rewrite history. We've got to rewrite some things, don't we? Okay? And I think that's where we're at with all this, right? What happened with your mom that night? Um, I don't know.

I don't know anything at all. Okay, you just listen to me, okay, sweetheart? You know what happened to your mom, okay? You know exactly. Sweetheart, listen to me. Let's not go down that road of taking your pencil and writing a bunch of mistakes down. And then when you get to a certain point, that paper's gone. And guess what? You can't erase it, can you?

I know. You can't erase it anymore. Do you want that? Yes. I don't think you do. Yes. I think you're smart enough to understand where we're at with this, okay? I think you know, okay?

And I know that you know, all right? I wouldn't be here if I didn't know. And I know the answer to a lot of these questions. Okay? I already know them. Okay? I know them, and I'm giving you a chance to be honest with me. Okay?

Because you don't want this thing to spiral out of control. Okay? Your boyfriend's in here. Okay? He's here. He's in here? Mm-hmm. Okay?

All right. And do you think that we've not talked to people? No, I know. Listen to me before you say a whole lot. Do not get yourself in a bunch of lies. Because what's going to happen, that snowball's going to get so huge, sweetheart, that it's going to explode on you. And you're never, ever going to get yourself out of it.

Do you understand me? I understand you. So I want to know, okay, why? Why? Why did you guys hurt your mom? Okay. Sweetheart, look at me. Look at me. Look at me. I've got kids. I've been doing this for a long time. And I want you to understand something. Don't dig yourself that hole. Don't go down that path, okay? Listen to me for a second. You go down that path, and what's going to happen?

What do you think is going to happen if you go down that path? It's not a path to go down. If anything, I don't tell lies. Okay, then don't sit here and lie to me, because if you do, what's going to happen is it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. You're not going to remember the ones that you've told other people, okay? Other people that I've probably already talked to. You understand that? I understand.

Why? Would you like me to start from the beginning? I only want you to start from the beginning, but we'll talk about that here in a minute. And I'm glad you're making that progress, okay? I'm proud of you for that. But the first thing that we need to get out of the way right now is why. That's the biggest thing. You know, you've got friends.

You've got friends that love you. Of course I know. You and your mom have friends that care for you. I know. You know what? They're down at the bottom of the scale with that snowball. And they're asking all these questions. They're asking why. I know. I know.

Now, help me give them an answer as to why. Okay? You have to give me an answer as to why because they are so concerned about you. I know. I have a lot of friends in Missouri. I know that. Okay. And I would never hurt my mom. Okay. Sweetheart, do you really want to dig yourself? You're digging yourself deeper, okay?

No, seriously, I would never hurt her. Listen to me. Listen to me, okay? I don't play around with that, okay? I'm not going to play around with this, okay? I didn't do anything. Listen to me. Listen to me.

Don't let that snowball get bigger, because that's what you're doing right now okay you you have a chance you have the opportunity right here right now because once i walk out that door and that opportunity is gone guess what it's gone it's just like when that paper is taken away when you're writing that pencil you don't have a chance to erase that mistake sir i have a million questions right now. Okay. I'm sorry. You know what? I'm proud of you for wanting to ask those million questions. And you know what? We can answer those, okay?

Okay. But we've got to get down to the bottom of why. Okay. Okay? The why. And your friends are very, very concerned about you. They all love you. But guess what?

Sure. Those friends are standing at the bottom of that hill. I understand. And that snowball is getting ready to crush them. But guess what? Those friends are standing at the bottom of that hill. I understand. And that snowball is getting ready to crush them because they want to know why. I think everything is very clear to me. You think that it's me? Why do you think that it's me?

I have always thought my mom and I are best friends. Listen to me. Listen to me. Please don't date yourself in this hole. And that's what you're doing. You're still doing it. Okay? You're the only and that's what you're doing you're still doing it okay you're the only one that knows the why you're in your friends do you really want to just put your friends no of course not okay then why may i please speak well when we get to the why

this happened i don't i don't even really know what happened yeah this is definitely the clip we already watched and we got a lot of clips to cover so i'm not going to go long here this is a I don't even know what happened. politically, you know, in that game at all, but politicians do this as well. They're going to say a lot, but they're not really saying much. And what he's trying to prevent here is from her doing too much by just getting off path. He has probably at this point already spoken to Nicholas Godejian. No, he has not actually. He hasn't. Okay. Well, it's a little interesting in how he's this confident, but he's already developed an opinion on this investigation based on the evidence that he has. I don't know what he has. I don't know.

But he already knows that she knows more than she's saying. I will say more than likely he's seen the text messages. Maybe he doesn't talk to Nick Orijan. The other detective is talking to Nick Orijan at the same time that Gypsy's being spoken to. That's odd that they're doing it the same time. You'll see towards the end, he leaves the room, talks to the other detective, comes back in, and plays hardball.

Okay, so that's when he's really going hard. Right now, you're right, he does seem confident, but... He's overly confident because he wants to portray that level of confidence to her. Listen, stop the cute stuff. I'm not here asking you this question because I'm guessing. I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking you. I just want to know why. Well, I think it's because they knew she was the one who made those Facebook posts.

Well, not only the Facebook posts, Stephanie, but to get the arrest warrant, they had to get that signed by a judge. And then she ran away with Nick, right? The ran away is whatever, but they have messages between her and Nicholas Godejohn describing the murder before it happened. They already have all that. They probably had that in their affidavit, which was signed by a judge.

They already know she knows more than she's saying. And if they're good at what they do, they've already looked into the videos that are out there about her and they know her game. So he's not giving her that out. That's all i'll say again. We get a lot of clips, but I think this is pretty self-explanatory for most people watching, you know We get a lot of part-time detectives out there. They they get it. They get what's going on here This detective is trying to keep her on track not even allowing her a window to say

Maybe i'm not involved that ship has sailed as far as they're concerned And he's also babying her a little bit. You know, at times, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for having questions, you know, like encouraging her. I'm on your side. I'm trying to save you from this. We know that it's not, you know,

you're not a completely innocent party. Let me help you. Don't make this worse for yourself. We've seen this tactic a million times. I've had to do it with child molesters and it kills me. Yeah. Yep. Couldn't do that. I understand where you're coming from. I get it. I mean, you were a big brother player. You have that level of manipulation in you. I don't.

Some say. Some do. I'm going to sit across the table from somebody like Gypsy and I'm going to be like, all right, enough, enough. You get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. Exactly. But this is why I wouldn't. Because you don't want her to say lawyer. Oh, I know. Oh, I know. But listen, I can't take it. Like I can't. You walk in the room, Stephanie, I'm saying lawyer. Yeah. Well, I'm not walking in the room, Derek. You walk in and you put that piece of paper down the picture like, all right, buddy, tell me what happened. And I'm going to go lawyer. I already wrote your confession out for you.

Just sign it. Nope. I'm going to say, get her out of here. Lawyer. Yeah, that's why I'm not walking in that room. But and listen, I obviously clipped a lot of this. So you cannot tell how long it goes on. Oh, I'm sure she says a lot without saying anything.

Gypsy denied doing anything wrong for a long time, like the better part of an hour, dude. And even when she does start to open up and tell like a semblance of the truth, quote unquote, her truth, it is a completely different story than we see in the messages between herself and Nicholas Godejohn. So eventually she's like, okay, I know, I know what happened to my mom, but blah, blah, blah, blah, completely different story. And it's interesting because she will eventually give a why because he keeps asking for the why. That's his, you know, he wants the motive. That's the tactic, right? We don't want to know if we want to know why. I don't care how you met this dude. I don't care what hotel you guys stayed at right now. We'll talk about

those details later. I need to know why this happened. And she does eventually give a why, but it's not the same why, the same motive that she's now giving to everyone. It's not, oh, my mother was horrible to me. My mother abused me. My mother made me do this. My mother made me do that, et cetera, et cetera. It's a completely different reason, a completely different motive that Gypsy gives. And we're going to hear that. And it's kind of what Derek and I have sort of been saying for the last few episodes, especially after reading the text messages. I came here because my mother came to my house. She and I were having relationship problems. I guess she wanted me to stay a little girl forever. She didn't really like my boyfriend. And she was like, pretty much, if you want to move to Wisconsin

with him, fine, go. And I packed my stuff. She basically wanted me out of the house before then because we kept on having arguments. But I'm not a violent person. I've never ever hurt her. And a lot of our arguments stemmed from being with Nick. And so I just basically chose to come here. I gave him money to come here. And I said, can you please come pick me up? Cause my mom's picking me up at Osprey soon. And that's when he asked his mom, can I stay with his mom and him

and his stepdad and his little brother? His mom said, fine. So anyway, I don't exactly know the exact date he came to Springfield, but I know that I gave him the Monday State Hotel. And anyway, I let him know that. Hang on a minute. Okay. We're going in a totally different direction here.

Okay. We're going to get back to where we started from. Let's get back to the why. We can talk all night long about this other stuff, and I'll sit here and I'll listen to you, and I'll listen to everything. This investigation is very thorough, okay? And there's a lot of whys, and you can answer those whys, okay? And your friends, okay? My friends know me as a sweet girl.

You're right. And as a man. But you know what? Sometimes sweet people make mistakes. Everybody does, okay? You make mistakes. I make mistakes. But you know what?

I'm glad you're not this person who's out here going around and doing this to a lot of other people, okay? I'm glad you're not that person. If you are, I don't even want to talk to you. I don't even want to be in the same room with you, if that's you. But I think what it is, I think there's a lot of frustration in your life. There's some things that you and your mom, you've already said that your mom, you kind of had some arguments and you kind of had some strained relationships.

But we work through it. You work through it. You're right, you do. But sometimes that can get the better of people okay now i think that's kind of where you're at with that i think that that you're stressing your life because your mom wanted you to stay so little all the time finally got to a boiling point and you just said you know what i'm done you know no matter what mom i'm gonna go with my boyfriend i'm gonna do whatever i want now you've made a decision okay but we need to get to why this happened to your mom.

Okay? You know what? People make mistakes every day. You do. I do. We all do. We've established that. Why did this happen?

I don't know. You do know why it happened. Okay? I don't know why it happened. Let me tell you something. I walk out that door. Did she have a heart attack? She was sick.

We're not going to play those games. I'm not going to do that. That's not what I'm here to do. Okay? I'm sorry. Then start being honest with yourself. And start being honest with me. I'm not here. No, you're not. Okay? and start being honest with me. I...

I don't care. No, you're not. Okay. You're not a bad person. I don't care what anybody's ever said to you. I don't care what your family's ever done to you. I don't care. I don't care that maybe somebody's bullied you or made fun of you. I don't know if you even know this,

but my mom had guardianship papers for me. Can we talk about why first? And I'm glad you brought that up, okay? Because I've talked to them. And you know what? There's this group of people sitting out here asking me why. Detective Hancock, why? Why? With tears in her eyes. Detective Hancock, why? Why? Why don't you tell me why, please? You tell me why and then I'll tell you why. I don't know why. Yes you do, sweetheart. You know exactly what's going on. I don't. Because I don't know what's going on.

Sweetheart, look at me, okay? Stop. Let us get out of control. Stop. Yeah, you do know. That's smart. I'm proud of you for saying that you know, you do know. That's smart. I'm proud of you for saying that you know because you do know. Okay? Because here's the... I'm just wondering, the question you're asking, why? What happened? Why? Why? Why did I come up here? Why did something happen to my mom? And that's why I'm asking. Why?

She had a lot of medical conditions. Okay. This is not a medical condition. You know that. It's not a medical condition at all. Okay. Please tell me she did not commit suicide. She had bipolar. Okay. We're not going to get off on that track. We're not getting off on that track. Okay. You know what happened? No. You do know what happened? You were there, okay? Wait, no. Yes, you were. You were there. I wasn't there. Okay. I told you I got kicked out. You're leaving stuff out. You know something.

And you're afraid. You're scared. I am afraid and I am scared because I don't know what's going on. So has somebody threatened you? No. Okay. How far are you going to let this snowball get? How big are you going to let this snowball get? Before it just explodes. I just love my mom.

I know you do. I know you, sweetheart, I know you love your mom. I have no doubt that you love your mom. I love your mom. I have no doubt that you love your mom. She's my mom. My mom's everywhere. She's everywhere. Good. Yeah, there it is.

Great job by the detective. He's not letting her off the leash. He's doing what he needs to do. All I'll say is this. She's a liar. We know she's a liar. We know she's trying she's trying to get herself out of a situation She doesn't know what he knows and I I said it in the last break when we talked about the clip He's seen those dms. He's seen those messages. He knows the level of involvement

She has I would bet my life on it if he hasn't talked to nicholas go to john We read those messages and that reaction, that visceral reaction that I had to you reading them is what he's basing this off of. That's how he knows she's lying. So before we keep going, let's take our next break. We'll be right back. McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. I hope you're ready for the most dippable chicken in So we're back. I think she knows that the detectives at least know how her mother died, right? Oh, yeah. Wait, it wasn't a suicide?

Yeah, her playing this game. It wasn't a heart attack? Did she have a heart attack? She had bipolar. Please don't tell me she committed suicide. This is once again just the, oh, how could I even possibly know? I wasn't there.

And he says, you were there. And she's like, I wasn't there. It makes it more true if you whisper. Yeah, she's very much trying. She's going to die on the hill, right? And a lot of liars, compulsive liars do this because they've gotten out of things so many times in the past by lying. They've gotten out of, by almost just exhausting people with their lies so that people are eventually like, okay, whatever, dude, whatever. But once again, this is a police investigation. Somebody is dead. And these detectives are not going to stop until they get to the truth. So you cannot lie your way out of this one, which is what he's trying to. But this is another thing. It's like, how horrible can you be? You orchestrated and planned your mother's murder. You were there. You got the knife. You got the gloves. You let him in. You brought this person in knowing what he was going to do. And then you're like, please don't tell me she died of a heart attack, officer. Like, it's so gross. And I'm saying this

is like an hour in. So I do have to give her credit. She's got some some resilience. That's nothing. I've had to go six, seven hours before they break. For somebody who's got such, you know, low emotional IQ and somebody who's, you know, got, you know, like a 15 year old, you'd expect that she would have broken by now, but she is hanging in there. Okay. She's gonna.

She miscalculated though. Yeah. Knowing what was going back and forth on the DMs, she should have said, if I get caught, I'm going to go immediately to, we had to do this for my own safety. To go in there and present it as, I'm just completely removed from this. She loses all credibility going forward. So that was the wrong tactical decision. That's, that's what I'm saying. And we'll wrap this up at the end, but that's kind of what I'm saying. Cause by now you would

have assumed she'd been like, okay, fine. I did it. But this is why. Yeah. This is valid. That's the angle. Yes. She miscalculated. She never says that. Okay. So finally, as you could hear at the end of the clip, she's like, I do know what happened. She's crying. And then she's going to basically finally break.

She's going to tell the detective what happened. She's going to blame everything on Nick. Right. He was violent. There hadn't been a plan to kill her mother. He just showed up and he did it. And then he forced her to have sex with him. And he forced her to help him clean up the murder scene. Gypsy goes from the beginning of the clip we're about to watch right now,

the beginning of this clip, she says she loves him so much, to being absolutely terrified of him during this short clip. We cut you down to the bottom of the Y, okay? I honestly didn't do anything to my mama. Who did? Who did? I don't know. Do we want to go back to square one?

You don't want to do that. Just because we do bad things doesn't mean that other people don't love us. It doesn't mean that your mom doesn't love you. Look, I'm going to tell you this, but please don't think I did it or did anything to my mom because I didn't.

Look, Nick and my mom didn't get along very good. Okay. But that's all I know. Okay. So why do you think Nick did this? I didn't say he did. So we already know. I already talked to people, okay. And right now? He said he hated my mom, but because my mom didn't want us to be together. But I was getting on my mom's nerves.

Her nerve medicine was running out. Her patience was getting very thin for me, sticking up for him every time. Good job. Good job. Good job. And so I she asked me to stay away from him and I promised her I would.

And then she just said, look, you want to go, go. I guess out of love she did that. Because she wanted me to be happy. Why did this happen to your mom? What was the reason for it? I don't know. All I know is that... Why didn't it hurt her?

Sweetheart, what was his reason behind this? And go back to that why. I can't say why. He knows I love my mom. He knows that she's the most important thing to me. So why do you think he did this to her? He only said something to me that he said that it's us against the world and that he's going to protect me no matter what. And that we were going to get married and everything and nothing was going to stop us.

Good. Even your mom? So he took care of that, didn't he? I don't know what you mean. I don't think he could ever hurt her. I mean, he's very sweet. He's very kind. I mean, he doesn't like police that much. He's kind of a radicalist, I guess you would call it. Okay. But um... Sweetheart, your mom loves you very much. So we're not gonna go off on what Nick believes and what he doesn't believe. Okay? Okay. But we're going to start talking about why Nick did this to your mom.

And you know why he did this. Now it's time to be truthful, sweetheart. No more lies. The only reason I can wake up is because he wanted me to himself. Okay. Because my mom kept mentioning it the way of me to himself. Okay. Because my mom kept making it the way of us being together. Sure. Sure she did.

She didn't like the neck. No. She didn't want her little baby girl to grow up. She wanted to keep her little baby girl young, didn't she? She said that there was something dangerous about him. He had a way of reading people okay and she said that he seems like the head in a closet type of person that kind of murders and kills and your mom's right jeffrey dama kind of person you think your mom's right you know your mom's right

you get her right on the nail on the head, sweetheart. You know your mom's right when she said that. You should know what? Okay. And how should you have listened to her? Okay. And how should you have listened to her? Okay. Should you have tried to stop him? Was he too strong? Was it hard for you to try to stop him?

It was very hard for you to try to stop him, wouldn't it? He's too strong, wouldn't he? Yeah, I see that. Look at me. Can you try to stop him? Okay. Hey, I'm proud of you. Look at me.

I'm very proud of you, look at me. I'm very proud of you for that. Okay, this is what I've stepped in my direction. Okay, how did you try to stop him? Did you try to pull the knife away from him? Was that a yes? I can't guess with your nodding, that's why I'm asking you. It looks like you're shaking your head up and down.

Is that a yes? Yes. What did he do with the knife after all this was done? I'm sorry that I wiped you from the main menu. I'll tell you the truth all now. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. Okay.

So there's a lot to talk about in this clip. And actually, I was wrong. It's the next clip where she starts talking about how violent he is and how afraid of him she is. But she starts building it in this clip, right? And here's where the why comes in. She says, this is why my mom didn't want us to be together. He wanted me to himself. My mom kept getting in the way of us being together. Not my mom was horrible to me and he wanted to save me from her. Not my mom was abusing me and he wanted to save me from her. She didn't want us to be together, which isn't that what we kind of said last episode? Yep. And I think that this is the truth this is why they killed dd because she was stopping them from being together she also tells this detective that she tried to stop nick and he's like how did you try to stop him you know what did you did you grab the knife and she's like

and kind of moving her head and he's like is that a yes and she's like yeah like not so she's now making like telling this guy that not only did she not orchestrate this, but when she realized what he was going to do, she tried to stop him. She grabbed the knife, but he was too strong. He was just too strong. And this is all bullshit. Why do you have to say it like that? This is all bullshit because it's gross. It's gross to me.

This is what they all do. This is what they all do. You can't. This is what all these types of people do. Yeah, but this is what they all do. This is what all these types of people do. But that's not the way she's being painted and portrayed now well just to not that's my issue not to be redundant and what everything you said because i'd basically be saying the same

thing another thing that i noticed in this interview that i thought indicates a level of intelligence that maybe some people don't don't think of when they think of gypsy rose right there's a moment there where he does a tactic that may even get past some people don't think of when they think of Gypsy Rose, right? There's a moment there where he does a tactic that may even get past some people who are considered to be smart, where he says something along the lines of, well, why did Nick do it? Or something, and she goes, I didn't say he did it.

Yeah, exactly. She stops him right in his tracks. She stops him right in his tracks and goes, well, I didn't say he did it. So she's there. She's there and she's aware. She, she, she stopped somebody's text goes, well, I didn't say he did it. So she's there, she's there. And she's aware of the chess match that's going on right now. And once she realizes, and that's why it can take a while, she's not going to be able to weasel her way out of it. And he says things like, I've already spoken to people. She's like, shit, he knows I got to go. I got to change approaches here. And she's slowly getting there. And this is,

this is a very common thing. It's not usually lie, lie, lie, then break, then complete truth. There's an evolution. It usually starts with a softer version of it. Maybe even present themselves as a victim as well. Maybe even someone who was trying to prevent it like she's doing now. It takes a lot of versions to finally get the truth out of it. It's a very long, exhaustive process to do it. Exhaustive, is that a word? Okay. So this isn't something that happens in a matter of seconds, but overall, my grade for this detective, truthfully, A plus. I i really he's going back and forth between the you know telling her he's there for her giving her words of affirmation and then also keeping her on track this is a young person

who is manipulative and and a very good liar and likes to get by on her appearance and presenting herself in this kind of you know like very, what's the word I'm looking for? Who's afraid of little old me? I'm super vulnerable. I'm just a sweet person. Yeah. And he's not buying it. He's got his ducks in a row. He's confident in what he's putting forward. And I think he's doing a great job. He is. And I also think it's interesting because he's kind of like pushing her, but he's also giving her enough rope to hang herself. That's it. He's saying he's her best friend, but also playing detective. He's doing both because she feels a level of trust with him where now she's starting to open up to him.

Oh, I don't think she feels a level of trust with him at all because she would have started opening up long before this. Like I said, you're getting the very, very condensed version. She holds her own against him for quite a while. She could easily just say, I want a lawyer. I think she's realizing, damn, I think they know. And he's saying, we're talking to people. But he's not saying who. So in her head, who is she thinking that he's talking to? Talking to Nick. Nick.

He can't say that. He's not going to outright say that because it's not true. He hasn't talked to Nick yet. But he's going to say, oh, I'm talking to people. And without, and it's context clues, but he's going to say, oh, I'm talking to people and without context clues. And he's he's very good. But Detective Hancock once again asks Gypsy, why? Why did Nicholas go to John do this to her mother?

And she said she knows why. And she starts talking about how Nick had come to town the previous March to watch Cinderella with her. And Gypsy says it hurt her mother, Dee Dee's feelings because Gypsy paid more attention to Nick than she did to her mother. And so Gypsy claims that Dee Dee did not like Nick from then on. And later when Gypsy called Nick to talk to him, she said Dee Dee took the phone from her and started going off on Nick and telling him like, oh, you're not good enough for my daughter. You're creepy. It's creepy that you're hitting on my daughter at a family movie. It's worth saying that I don't believe this conversation ever happened because Nick does not say it. He's asked about the Cinderella movie in his interrogation and he said, oh,

Dee Dee was nice. He said, Dee Dee was nice. She didn't give me any hard time. But later, Gypsy told him, my mom doesn't like you. Okay? So that's how he came to know that. So now Gypsy says that because Nick doesn't like his name being drug through the mud, he killed Dee Dee. And that was his way of getting justice and getting back at her for calling him creepy and saying like, you're not good enough for my daughter. I love him so much. But maybe he can get help now.

Okay. For his silent ways. Maybe he can. He killed my mom like what he's... Maybe he can. He killed my mom. He killed your mom? He killed my daughter. How did he do that? He was supposed to come and visit me.

Okay. And I thought we were gonna go outside and we're just gonna sit together for a while on the porch. At your mom's house? Yeah. Okay. And he came inside and he started walking to my mom's room and I told him that we needed to go outside. What was your mom doing at that point? Was she asleep?

She was asleep and I got up to use the restroom. And at that point, he put me in the bathroom and he had locked the door. And he went to my mom's room and I heard him cry. I heard him scream for my name. You heard your mom crying? You heard your mom crying? And you heard your mom calling out your name. Uh-huh. And he was screaming.

He was screaming. And he opened the door. And he was covered with his hands and his arms. And he had cut himself in his fingers. Do you know if it was his left hand or his right hand? It was his hand. Okay. And what happened was he commanded me to clean him up.

Okay. How did you do that? I cleaned things up with wipes. What kind of wipes? Baby wipes. Baby wipes, okay. What did you do with those baby wipes? These are my wipes.

Like in the bathroom trash? In the garbage. Oh, in the garbage, okay. She's asking. You're a real happy human. Okay. You're a real happy human. I know, I know, I know.

You're a real happy human. Listen, listen. I'm not. Go ahead, we just don't, okay. You're doing good. Perfect. I was in shock, and then he took me to my bedroom, and he made me take off all my toys off the bed. So he made you take all your toys off your bed?

Okay. And he raped me. And off your bed? Okay. Then he raped me. Then he raped you? Okay. And then after he was finished, he grabbed my bag. Grabbed your bag? And my bag to pack stuff. Okay.

What was in the backpack? Stuff like soap and things. Clothes. He picked up clothes for me. After that, we called a taxi okay and um do you remember what company taxi company was springfield um yellow cap yellow cap okay all right i know that helping him clean up was wrong, but he said I had to, and he grabbed me by the throat, and he said I had to. Okay. And so that's why I did it.

And I went to the Cam Backton's Hotel. Where was the hotel at? The Days Inn on Kittwood and Kittwood Avenue. Kittwood. No, on Kentwood Avenue. Kentwood. North Kentwood. Okay. So they're by Glenstone Avenue? Okay.

It's like by the Cracker Barrel. Oh, okay. All right. And we stayed there until we can get a bus, a Greyhound bus. And so we took the Greyhound bus, and we came here where we stayed for a few days at his parents house you said that when you were in the house you guys were supposed to go outside and him and your mom i mean what was him and your mom she didn't know he was there all right so now nick shows up at the. They're just supposed to hang outside and talk. But he goes in, kills her mother, rapes her in the bedroom, forces her. Wait, remember, she said he locked her in the bathroom. And Detective Hancock is going to pull this back in a minute. But yeah, it's pretty much she's blaming him for everything now.

How we have grown. Yes. And then she tells him, you know, he even asks her. He's like, oh, can you tell me about the knife? And she acts not only like she wasn't the one who purchased it, but she doesn't even really know what it looks like. She's like, it's long and sharp. That's all I know. He even asks her, well, where did you guys get the knife from?

You know, did you just pull it out of the kitchen? She's like, I have no idea. You bought it from Walmart, gypsy. Well, real quick, that's why I know that he's seen the DMs because if you look at the way he's structuring his questions, he's asking questions that he has the answers to already from the DMs. So when he says, you know, where'd you get the knife from? And he's kind of, it sounds inquisitive. Like he already knows the answer. He's trying to gauge her around and forcing her to clean up her mother's blood. And what I don't like that Detective Hancock does, and let me know if this is wrong or right in your opinion, but he's asking her about marks on her neck and her arms, and she's like, these are hickeys, right? And he looks at one of the marks on her arms, and he's like, that's not a hickey.

That's absolutely not a hickey. What is that? What is that? And she's like, it's a hickey. And then he keeps pushing her her and she's finally like, it's a bruise from Nick abusing me. You know, so I didn't really like that because I genuinely think that those marks were just hickeys. to get her to kind of lean into this story about how Nick's just this abusive asshole. And you even heard in the previous clip when she's like, my mother knew there was something wrong about him. She knew. She said he was like one of those head in the closet people, like a Jeffrey Dahmer. She doesn't know who Jeffrey Dahmer is. She's acting and he's like, your mother was right. Your mother was right. So it's kind of like encouraging her to fabricate more things. And I'm not a super big fan of that, but let me know what you think. We should take a quick break and then we'll come back and play that clip. Absolutely. Let's do it.

Okay. We're back. We're going to play the next clip now. So we'll be back to talk about it afterwards. What did he tell you? He just said that she had bad talk to him, that she deserved it. And he says, did he say she deserves it? Or did he say she deserves something else or something different? Well, he said that he would... You way worse if he didn't care about me. He said he wanted to originally rape her too. Okay. Did you go in and say your mom? No. I didn't want to.

No. I loved my mom so much. I can tell you did. I would not have ever, ever, ever gone with him. If you would have known this was going to happen, you would have go out with him. If you would have known this was going to happen, you would have never went with him. You wouldn't have stayed with him. What do you mean by that? I would have never gotten involved with him.

You never had a relationship with him? We've been in a relationship for two years and seven months. And in that time, his exes have told me that he's very controlling. And he's into that thing, BDSM, the fetish thing. That's a sexual thing? Okay. And I agree to it, I guess. I guess it's not nothing wrong with him being a little controlling. I mean, that's fine.

Was all the sex that you had here in this state, was it consensual? It was consensual. Consensual, okay. But in Missouri, he forced himself on you. And when did that happen? After I killed my mom. After you killed your mom. How did that make you feel? Hard because I've heard from he's your mom. I'm not sure he's your mom. How did that make you feel?

I don't know. I don't think it's hurtful. Okay. He said he wanted to marry me. Okay. How did that make you feel when he told you that? Happy. Sure? Because we talked about getting married before.

But you knew your mom was dead at that time. Is that correct or not? That is correct. That's correct. So I'm not sure if you could hear because Gypsy's talking very low here, but she said, you know, Nick told her after, you know, the murder that he was going to marry her. And Detective Hancock said, and how did that make you feel? And she said, good. You know, we've been talking about that for a while. And he's like, it made you feel good even though you knew your mom was dead. And she's like, yeah, like she kind of forgot that part, you know, like, like, oh, this is a person. Yeah. This is a person I'm, I'm telling you just raped me, um, forced me on my knees to clean my

mother's blood, um, was horrible to me. I was scared of him, but yeah, I was happy when he said he wanted to marry me. So this lets you know, kind of, she doesn't actually feel that way, and she forgot herself for a moment and slipped back into, you know, this is my boyfriend, I love him so much, etc., etc. And he calls her on that, and he's going to call her on the bathroom lock thing as well.

So we can continue playing the clip. I like to protect him. I didn't see him. I don't know what he put in his shoe. lock thing as well. So we can continue playing the clip. How did that happen? Um, as I was going towards my mom's room, I guess I was coming awake. I'm here and it's a hallway. And I was like, where are you going? And he put me in the bathroom. He closed the door. And first he locked the door in the way that it locked itself. Were you inside the bathroom when he locked it? I was inside the bathroom.

So he can lock it from the outside? No, he put it to lock inside and then he closed it. So the lock was on the inside when you were in it? The lock was on the inside. Okay, so how come you never unlocked it and it came out? I never thought about it. So the lock was on the inside? The lock was on the inside. Okay, so how come he never unlocked it and came out? I never thought about it. Okay. All right, so this is Detective Hancock calling Gypsy out on her weird stories

because she's claiming Nick go to John locked her in the bathroom. And he's like, well, how did he lock you in the bathroom? And she's like, you know, he opened the door, locked it from the inside, and then closed it with me in there. And he's like, well, the lock was on the inside when you just walk out of the bathroom. And she's like, you know, he opened the door, locked it from the inside, and then closed it with me in there. And he's like, well, the lock was on the inside when you just walk out of the bathroom. She's like, hmm, I didn't really think about it. He's calling her out. He realizes this story is paper thin. It doesn't hold water, right? You weren't locked in the bathroom. Bathrooms lock from the inside. The person inside the bathroom can easily get out,

and yet she didn't. So she's making it seem like, oh, he prevented me from saving my mother. But in reality, you could have left the bathroom at any time, but you didn't. And then he asks her, did you know what his intention was, why he was there? And she said, not really. So we will continue the clip. Yeah. Before we do, I think this is the point where it's transitioned in the interrogation, where he's more questioning what's happening because the DMs described what was going to happen prior, not actually what happened during the, it wasn't, there was no play by play in the DMs. The DMs did say though, he was like, go in the bathroom and, you know, stay in there. Yeah. But as far as you'll know, it actually went down on the door and that's how, you know,

it's me and not your mother. Yeah. That's, that's it. But as far as how it went down, did she come out of the bathroom? All those little details. He's probably trying to gather that information so that he can relay it to his partner and they can go at Nicholas, go to John to see if the stories line up. One other thing, because we're about halfway through this episode and I talked at the beginning about watching these videos and looking at body language, I will say she's covered with a blanket. Ideally, you wouldn't want that to be the case. It might've been cold in the room. I would have said to her, let me get this heat turned up, you know, no blankets for right now. Let's just be so I could develop a baseline. You can't see a lot of what she's physically doing. A lot of those

subconscious actions she might be doing, whether it's tapping of the feet, tapping of the fingers, kind of rummy, like wringing her hands out, rubbing her thighs whether it's tapping of the feet, tapping of the fingers, kind of wringing her hands out, rubbing her thighs, whatever, some of the things that I've seen over the years. You can't really see any of that because up to her neck is covered. Now, the question becomes, is it really important? For this particular interrogation, not really, because he has what many investigators would love to have going into it. He has black and white DMs from this person proving that she was involved. In some of those interrogations, we truly don't know if the person's telling the truth or not. So that those verbal and nonverbal cues become extremely important when we're trying to

evaluate the authenticity and the validity of what they're saying. Here, he's already got her. I would even call the DMs the smoking smoking gun, as far as her involvement in this. So he's working with a set of facts and standards with this case that allows him to not really have to worry about her deceptiveness from a, from a nonverbal perspective, because he already knows what she said in DMs. So when she lies about it initially, he's already able to evaluate her level of credibility and it's at zero because she's lied the entire time. So he doesn't really need those nonverbal cues as much. So in this particular interrogation, I'm okay with the blanket. It's putting her at

ease. It's making her comfortable and allowing her to continue speaking. And that's ultimately what you want. Yep. So we'll continue on with the clip. I was so scared that I just covered my ears. And I just crawled up in a little corner. What were you at in the bathroom? You said you were curled up. I'm by the tub, like by the toilet. I was there. What were you wearing that night? I was wearing a white nightgown with flowers.

Did you have panties or shorts or anything on? No, I didn't usually wear panties to bed. When you were in the bathroom and you heard your mom screaming, can you kind of describe that to me? No. You can, so I'll start from the beginning to the middle to the end. Okay. I heard her wake up kind of moaning. And I heard her scream. You heard her moan and then you heard her scream?

Mm-hmm. Can you describe her scream to me? No, that's an awkward question. Startled. Okay. And then she kept screaming louder and louder. And then she said, Gypsy, Gypsy. He isn't who? get to see my name she was calling for she was calling she was calling for my mom okay and um i think i knew what he was doing at that point you knew what he was doing your mom was calling that for? When I was too afraid to go because I was afraid he'd do the same to me. So what did he say to you?

Did you kind of know what he was going in there to do when he locked you in the bathroom? Okay. Did he tell you kind of what he was going to do? Did he make a comment or anything? No. Okay. But while he was doing it, um... No, you say doing it. I can't guess. Part of my job is not to guess, so...

Killing her. Okay. Um, he said a comment. He won't keep us apart. He won't keep us apart. You'll be dead before that happens. Where were you standing at? Where was he at whenever he said that? I was in the bathroom with my hands over my ears like this and he was in my mom's bedroom.

And that's when he was making that comment, you're not gonna stand between me and her? Mm-hmm. Okay, how'd you get these stuff around your neck how'd you get all that they're hickeys they're just hickeys okay how'd you get this um that is a hickey and that one's a bruise okay and then you're telling me this is a hickey you've been you've been honest with me this whole time now don't start lying to me now what is this and how did you get it You've been honest with me this whole time now. Don't start lying to me now.

What is this and how did you get it? I'm a guy. I would never give a girl a hickey on her arm. Okay? How'd you get that purse? Look at me. He grabbed my arm. At what point did he grab your arm? He kept on grabbing me to bring me around the house. And he made me clean up the drops of blood. Okay. Just grab that to me. He grabbed my arm like this and said, clean it up. Now where were you at when he did that? What part of the house were you at? The drops of blood went from my mom's bedroom all the way to the hall,

into the dining room, to the kitchen. So to weigh in on what you had mentioned earlier about the hickey slash bruises, I get where you're coming from, but this is the point where he doesn't know the truth anymore. The DMs didn't describe this. So there might be something here where he's assuming incorrectly that maybe this is a situation where there's a power dynamic and Nicholas was leading the charge. And so seeing the bruise on the arm, I see where he's coming from. Why would you give a hickey on the arm but to me and he doesn't know victor and he doesn't know any of that but he also doesn't know that as described prior they had a pretty aggressive uh sexual

lifestyle she says he's into bdsm he's into bdsm so i think the bruising this is just my opinion is from that. And maybe the sex they had after the murder. I don't think he was dragging her around the house based on the DMs telling her to clean up. Get down, clean up. No, I think that's probably the rough sex that happened not only at the house, but then at the hotel. Yeah. That's my opinion.

Yeah. But he might be going down that road thinking maybe we do have a person here who is in their own right Somewhat of a victim even though he has the dms and he's trying to find out or and he might just be looking at it For what it is saying i've seen hickeys before That's a bruise mark that i've seen during multiple domestic violence cases. He might know immediately what it is. And so He just wants to get the truth out of her. He knows she's lying left and right. And so he's driving down on different things, gathering all the information is going to come to the conclusions later. What did you think about the other parts of the clip? Which, which parts in particular, there was a lot of clips there. There was a lot going on. So

what, what part else, as far as the descriptions of the screaming? Yeah. So she's talking about, cause remember we had talked about that last episode where you were like, is she, is Dee Dee screaming out as in she might think it's Gypsy killing her or is she screaming out for Gypsy and Gypsy specifically says, and you'll hear Nick say it as well. Dee Dee was calling for Gypsy to help her. Yeah. She was being attacked by someone who we don't know if she knew it was Nicholas or not, but she's, she's yelling out for Gypsy. I think she even said in that clip that Nicholas was saying, you're not going to keep us apart. He could hear that. Was that correct when I heard that part as well? Yes. So who knows if that part's true or not? That just kind of adds

to her narrative for his motive. I would say that a lot of the times there's truth mixed with fallacies and that's probably what's going on here where her yelling out for Gypsy's true and maybe this other part isn't. The truth is'll never know unless nicholas confirmed that he said that as well wait which which other part oh no so nicholas does say and you'll hear him he says something similar but um but he claims it wasn't him talking to dd it was victor talking to dd and saying like you're not going to come between me and ruby You're not going to keep me away from Ruby. But once again, this is the narrative. He was, she was killed. Dee Dee was killed because she prevented us from being together. Okay. And I think that Gypsy really thought if she went with this narrative, that would be enough.

That it would be enough. He's the one that did it. She didn't do anything. He did it because he wanted to, what did she say earlier? He wanted me all to himself. That's the way she's sort of posing it. Only when she actually gets arrested, only when she's sitting there with a murder charge is the story completely different. It was, I was being abused and he was saving me. I needed somebody to save me. It never gets brought up here. The motive is always, Nicholas is in there killing her mom and he's saying to her, you're not going to keep me from her. Not Nicholas is in there killing her mom saying you will never hurt the love of my life again. You will never do this to the love. You're not going to keep me from her. This is the story

they both have to tell. This was the motive. This was the why, you're not going to keep me from her. This is the story they both have to tell. This was the motive. This was the why, in my opinion. Yeah, I agree with that. I have no rebuttal. At no point have they said that this was done because Dee Dee was a threat to Gypsy's life. Never. It's been very consistent. It was because Dee Dee was going to keep them apart. That's very consistent. So towards the end of the interview, Detective Hancock, he gets up to leave and he gives Gypsy a chance to come clean. He says, is there anything else you want to tell me? Anything about you?

You didn't know this was going to happen. You didn't agree to it. She says, no, sir. I didn't. I didn't do anything wrong. You never killed your mom? No, no. Never touched her with a knife? No, never kissed her. You never killed your mom? No, no. Never touched her with a knife? No, never kissed her.

You never agreed? Told him that you knew he was going to kill her? No. I never... What do you think he's going to tell me? He's going to tell you that... That I came here just to see him and that he didn't do it. But, I...

So he's not gonna tell me that you had any part of this? I don't know. I honestly don't know what he's gonna say. Okay, I'm asking you direction straight. You don't think he's gonna tell me that you had anything to do with your mom's killing? I don't know. Then this is the time to be honest,

cause it's like I told you, to walk out that door. He has a romantic notion of us doing everything together as a team, but I didn't. I didn't want this. I wanted

my mom and him to... So did you kill your mom? No, no, sir. Did you help... No, sir....Nicholas kill your mom? No, no, sir. Did you help? No, sir. Nicholas kill your mom? No, sir. No, sir. Did you have knowledge that Nicholas was going to kill your mom before he did it?

No, sir. Yeah. So right there, self-explanatory. He's, he's going back to this to say, you know what? Let me give her another shot at telling the truth. Because I have these DMs that are in my office on my desk right now where she's planning this whole thing out from pre-cut tape to knife to gloves to how you're going to come in to watch the squeaky door. And she looks him square in the face after saying all these things about Nicholas Godejohn. And he asked her and he frames it in a way where he knows it's a lie. Did you have any knowledge that this was going to happen beforehand? Even if you didn't help with it when he was there? No, sir. No, I didn't. And that my friend proves you're a liar. And

that's what he's going for. He's like, I can't trust this girl. Exactly. And so then he leaves, right? And a lot of time goes by, they speed it up and you see Gypsy in the room and she's crying and laying down and sitting up. And so a lot of time goes by. Detective Hancock kind of goes in and out. He's asking some clarifying questions. And then after speaking to the other detective who was interviewing Nick and getting some more information, Hancock returns and confronts Gypsy with the truth. Talk to your boyfriend. There's a whole lot of stuff you're leaving out, girl. Like what? Well, I'm not going to get into it with you, okay?

You're leaving a lot of stuff out that you need to probably tell me. Do you want to talk to me about it and tell me about it? Sure, I'll tell you. You planned this with him, okay? You didn't get locked in the bathroom, okay? I'm not stupid. First of all, the lock's on this side, so you can't get locked in there. Okay, you went in there because you brought that knife into the picture.

You brought the idea into the picture. I didn't bring the idea. You did bring it in. You brought the whole thing in the idea. No, no. He did it for you. No, no. He did, okay okay so did the lies

they're done I'm not sitting here all night long I did not think of this I know that um he has he has a evil side and he did want to do it. Okay, I understand that. He wanted to get rid of my mom. Yeah, for you. Yes, for me. Yeah, because you asked him to. He wanted to.

Because you asked him to. Plain and simple. Gypsy, we're not playing this game, okay? You asked him to. That's why he did it, okay? Plain and simple. We're not playing this game, okay? You asked him to. That's why he did it, okay? Plain and simple. We're not playing this game. I'm not going to spend all my night long listening to your lies anymore.

You told me the truth on some things, but you left a lot of stuff out. Left a lot of stuff out. So we're not playing this game, okay? He's already told me everything. Everything. The knife was mailed. You guys mailed it? Here? Okay.

We know where the knife's at. So the gig's up. You're done. It's up. You're done. You're done. You hated your mom? I did not hate my mom. I did not hate my mom.

I loved my mom. You would have never done this to your mom. I did not hate my mom. I loved my mom. And he... You would have never done this to your mom. He needs to tell you that I honestly have been having horrible... and I didn't want to do it. And he said that he would commit suicide if we didn't. Did he tell you that? Yep. Yep. I said that it was a bad thought that I was thinking and I don't think that we should be doing this. A lot of people think about stuff, but when you act, that's when you cross the line.

And that's what you've done. You acted upon it and he acted upon it. So, okay, we're done. You're obviously going to keep telling me lies. I'm not. I'm not, sir. I'm not, sir. Now you're going to be booked in for, later on down the line, you're gonna be booked in for primary murder, okay? As long as, and with him as well, okay? I didn't murder my mom, sir. Listen to me, listen to me. You did, because you're behind it. You pulled all the

strings on it, and you're behind it. I did. Listen, Gypsy, I'm not gonna sit and argue with you about it, okay? All I wanted was about it, okay? No, that's not all you wanted. There's a lot more to this whole story that you're leaving out. I'm not going to play the sympathetic game. I'm not like that, okay? I can see right through it. I'm not able

to be in jail. I have a lot of medical needs. I understand that. And they'll get taken care of. Okay. So sit tight. So what I take from this, and again, it's an incredible, incredible job by this detective, but more than likely he felt this way the entire time. He kept it in check for the first part of the interview. He took his information. Because he didn't have everything. interview because he didn't have everything yeah he didn't have everything he takes it he brings it over the nick list they compare notes again

he probably felt this way from this from the start but he kept it in check he played ball with her he became her friend he he was empathetic to her situation and as soon as he got what he needed he dropped the hammer on her and this is the other side of it saying, you know what? I gotcha. This is the same guy. This is the different side. I'm done with your lies, lady. This is him pulling off the mask and saying, no more, Mr. Nice guy. I don't need to hear anything else. You were pulling the strings. He, you and him are going down for murder one and that's it. And that, and you see that in desperation, sir, I have medical problems. I can't be in jail. You have medical problems when

it suits you. Well, we'll, we'll make sure those get taken care of. Yeah. I liked that part. He's like, don't worry, you will get the best care, but it's like, you don't have medical problems and your mom was abusing you and pretending you did, or you do have medical problems and you're using that to try to get some special treatment. I'm going to, I want to also say something else that's not specific to this interview that's surprising to me. And I really want everyone else to weigh in down in the comments below about this, because maybe I'm off, maybe I'm wrong, but everything that I've seen from Gypsy and heard about her, I expected to be a much more uneven match as far as the back and forth of this interrogation. My personal opinion, she seems pretty sharp to me. I know. She's quick thinking, she's rebutting

things. Again, I'm not saying they're the same she keeps it pretty solid like she's yeah she's she's a lot more on the ball than i expected because i thought i could maybe push back and say you can tell she's not even comprehending half the things he's saying that doesn't that's not how it looks to me but tell us in the comments what do you think pause it right here maybe i'm getting this wrong this wrong. What's your impression of Gypsy during this entire interview? Not what she's saying, but just the way she's responding. She appears to be completely aware of what he's saying, what he's saying. She picks up on the different intonations of his voice. She could tell where she's losing him. Yeah. Well, so now we're

going to move on to Nicholas, go to John's police interview. And right from the start, like you said, oh, you can tell that Gypsy's kind of picking up on everything. I don't believe that Nick is. Right from the start, when the detective's going through his Miranda rights, you can tell he doesn't really know what's going on. He certainly doesn't understand the gravity of the situation, and he's approaching it in a very, very childlike way. So Detective Maholy, who interviewed him, she's even talking to him as if he's someone much younger than his actual age, which is 26. You must understand your rights. If you understand that, then put your initials right there. We'll go through each one of them together. Okay. Well, I have a question. Yeah. If you let me ask. Is it okay to put it right there after you read them all to me we have to do them one at a time okay that's just so i can make sure you understand each of them okay just your initials yeah just like that okay the next one is you have the right to remain silent anything you say can be used against you in court.

That's a little different than on TV, huh? Yeah, I told you. So it's in reference to something she had first said when she came in the room, when she said, I'm going to go through your Miranda rights with you, and do you know what that is? And he's like, no. And she's like, well, you've probably seen it on TV. And so now he's referring to that. He's like, that's a little different than what I've seen on TV, you know,

being actually on this end of the table. And for about five minutes, for about five minutes, Nick gives the same narrative that he and Gypsy had agreed on. Gypsy got kicked out of the house. He knew she was alone wandering the streets. So he took a bus to Springfield to get her and bring her back to his house. Now, Detective Maholy, she stops him in his tracks. She says, listen, I know you're lying. Gypsy's told us everything.

At this time, when she said that it was a lie, because as we know, Gypsy took forever to come clean. She had not yet told the truth. But Nick didn't know that. And unlike Gypsy, he immediately, immediately owned up to what he had done. But before we get into that, let's have our last break. Okay, we're back. So we're going to play that clip for you now. I guess she's your girlfriend. Yes, she is. And you love her? Oh, do I love her? You love her a lot? I was bummed my eyes out waiting for this moment to where I can talk to you because I was so worried about her. Yeah. I think she loves you too. You know, we spoke to her for a long time, and I'm kind of thinking maybe she loves

you a little more than you love her, because you're sitting here telling me things that I know aren't true, and then she's sitting here telling me things that are true. And if you really love her, I don't think you would want her in that situation, okay, the situation that she's in right now. And so we're going to go down two paths here, okay, and that is you're going to have to be honest with me. Because if you love her, if you love Gypsy, then you're not going to let Gypsy get in trouble without you being there to help her.

Okay? I understand. And so what you need to know is that Gypsy told us everything. Okay. We didn't talk to Gypsy all this time and not get everything. Okay. That's what we do. Yeah.

And so, Nick, I want you to do the honorable thing, okay, for Gypsy and for your family, okay, because we know what happened. And I want to give you the opportunity to start over and to tell the truth, okay? And the truth is, is not what you've told me. How much have I told you is the truth? I believe the part that you got on a bus and went to Springfield, I believe that's true. That you ordered food to eat, I believe that's true. I believe that it's true that at some point Gypsy came back with you to the motel, I believe that's true.

I believe Gypsy got on a bus and came here with you. I believe that's true. That's all I believe. Okay. Okay? Because you missed a lot in there. And I understand that you missed a lot because you're probably, you don't know what to say because you don't know what Gypsy said. I understand that. But I'll tell you right now, Gypsy did tell me everything. She told us everything. She told us about you coming there that she told us what happened to mom she told us about your guys relationship she told us about the cleanup she told us about all of that okay so do you want to do the right thing by gypsy if you love her well the truth is I worship her so I know you know the way there's no way I wouldn't do it on her. I know.

I would think for her. I know you do. I believe you do. But this is the point where you're going to prove whether you do or not, okay? You mean you talk. Okay. Okay? Because it's not fair.

It's not fair to Gypsy for her to be honest and you to lie. Okay? So what I want to know is um can you tell me this first did Gypsy know that you were gonna kill her mother honestly she asked me to okay so so Gypsy knew you were gonna do it because Gypsy asked you to why did she ask you to do that? Because she felt it was her only way to be with me. Okay.

She felt like if you killed the mom, then that's the only way she could be with you. Yeah. Do you know the mom's name? I don't know her real name. All I know is it goes by Dee Dee. Dee Dee. Okay. So has Gypsy asked you to kill anyone else?

No. Okay, she just wants you to kill her mom? Yes. Okay. And how did Gypsy ask you to do that? Did she ask you to do that in a text message, on a Facebook. We would talk about it on there. We would talk about it even on Texas. Okay. And what kind of things would Gypsy tell you that she wanted you to do? She wanted, the thing is, is that I know she loves her mom a lot. I know she does. Yeah. I had to, well, I was up here with her, and she felt guilty about the whole situation, I had to

make sure she was safe. Meaning like I had to make sure she felt like she could be comforted by it. By you, okay. Yes. Okay. Because, I mean the truth is, okay I will admit it, I did actually stab her. I will admit it. I know. Okay. The only reason I did it is because I did it for me and her. That's the real reason I did it.

I would have never did it if it was not for me and her. Okay. So you wouldn't have done it if somebody else would have asked? No. There's no way I wouldn't do it for anyone else. Okay. So you just did it. I truly do worship her to the point that it's not something I want to do for her. Okay. Okay. Well, I think you've proved that, right? Yes. I think that you've proved that, that you do what she asked you to do, if that's the case, if she did ask you.

Yes, she did ask me. Okay. And she asked you more than once? Did she ask you why you were here? She asked me more than once. Okay. So a lot of what he's saying in that clip is things that we know, right? But here's what I take away from it

from a comparison point of view What I just said about gypsy surprisingly a lot sharper and a lot quicker and A lot more protected and measured in her responses Calculated you might say calculated measured you use whatever word you want calculated We don't see that here. This is not a fair fight, okay?

We know that clinically, Nicholas has a low IQ. That's, I think, again, it was like 82. He's diarrhea of the mouth. He's volunteering information that she's not even asking about. She didn't even ask for it. That's what I'm trying to get at as far as if you're going to compare it to someone when you're thinking about are they equal is one more responsible than the other as far as this actual crime the murder right what's your take on it and I'm not talking to you Stephanie I'm

talking to you guys out there of course you're not talking to me just yeah of course I'm not asking you I'm not asking you out I'm not asking you. Out there, am I wrong? Forget the detective perspective, right? From just a regular person or your part-time detective, whatever you are, watching these two interviews, do you view them equal? Do you see them as the same people? I'll leave it at that.

You tell us. But that's my general observation from that first clip. This is someone, it's not a fair fight. This detective doesn't have to do any type of work. This is going to be a very easy interrogation. She even seems surprised sometimes. Oh, you did that. You proved that. Yeah.

I mean, I'm not going to lie to you. I stabbed her. Yeah. He's like, I did do it. I did do it. Yeah. But, and she's like, I know. I will say, and we'll never know for certain unless we got to ask them.

It does appear to me that it might not have been the same exact time. It's almost like maybe that interview with Gypsy happened right before this. And you can hear him say, she said, why did you do it? Well, it was, it was the only way we could be together. Never mentions, never mentions that I had to get Gypsy out of there. She was not safe. She was in danger. Not one time.

Not one time. Not one time. And this is a guy, ask yourself this, considering everything I just said, do you think he's telling the truth? And I mean, on top of that, he's caught for murder now, okay? So if he was going to do anything, that would have been the excuse to use. That would have been it. Well, like, yes, I understand I did that.

But like, you have to also understand the person I loved was in danger and I didn't know what else to do. Yeah. Never. I'm with you. And I kind of get the impression that it's like Gypsy's almost this cult leader and Nick does whatever, even when the police officer's like, hey, you have to tell the truth. That's what's best for Gypsy.

And he's like, oh wait, telling the truth is what's best for Gypsy? Here's all the truth you can handle. I've got it all for you. If that's what's best for her, I've got it. And so then Nick starts talking about how Gypsy herself had been wanting to do this for a while, kill her mother.

She was going to do it herself and she'd even looked up ways that it could be done, painlessly, of course, because at the end of the day, she loved her mother, and she didn't want her death to be painful or long and drawn out. She wanted to be quick and painless. At first, she wanted, because the thing was, is that she wanted to do it herself but she was too uh what's the word uh not cautious it's uh i guess scared is just the word i'm looking for i didn't want to actually do it okay because she couldn't okay and um as for um me i honestly to this day i still feel guilty about it okay I do I do because I I didn't I learned so much about her mom after she told me and more and more

about it after actually being able to live with her for a while right I actually realize how good of a mom she was okay so it kind of makes you feel a little guilty no no no I feel a lot more guilt than that. Okay, because Gypsy's telling you about her mom. Yeah. And then, okay. Yeah, how she is and her accomplishments and all, yeah. Okay, okay.

So when you came here to Springfield, that was your purpose to come here so that way you could do that for Gypsy? Yes, because I wanted to be with her and I wanted. So did Gypsy know you was coming here then to go ahead and kill Dee? Yes, because I wanted to be with her and I wanted... So did Gypsy know you was coming here then to go ahead and kill Dee? Yes. Okay. Why did you guys decide that you would stab her instead of shooting her with a gun or poisoning her or doing beating her with a bat? Like why did you guys decide stabbing would be what you did to kill her? Honestly, the thing is we really wouldn't have known how to poison her. Honestly, we wouldn't have known how to. Okay. I mean, she looked up multiple times of how to do it,

how to do it because she wanted to find the quickest way to do it. Okay, so like she looked up on the internet like how to kill her mom? Yes. Okay, and so she was looking for the easiest way to do it? Yes, the easiest way she would be in less pain. She wanted her mom's death to be quick. Okay, okay, so he wouldn't have known how to do the poisoning. And so, again, why did we choose the knife? Like, why did you choose the knife? The reason why we chose the knife is because I guess she thought that it'd be quicker if she bled out quickly. Okay. Now, did she tell you that, or is that something you think she thought? Most likely that's what I would think she thought. Okay, but she didn't tell you to stab her because she'd bleed out quickly?

No. Okay. That's what I figured she would think because it makes sense. More holes, the faster they go away and the faster they are at peace. Okay. So the more holes you put into the body? Yeah. Is that what I'm understanding?

Yeah. Okay, so that's why you chose to stab her? Yes. Okay, and so how did you get the knife? Like where did the knife come from? Did you bring it with you from here? No. Okay, did you buy it somewhere?

She bought it for me. Who bought it for you? Uh, Tipsy. So when you got, so you didn't bring a knife from here? No. Okay. Did you buy it somewhere? She bought it for me. Who bought it for you? Uh, Gypsy. So when you got, so you didn't bring a knife from here? No. So when you got here, she had a knife? Yeah.

So did she know you was going to stab her? Yes. Okay. Okay. Have you ever stabbed anybody before this? No. That's the reason why this was the very, only one person I would ever do this for. Okay.

Only person you do it for is Gypsy. This is the first time you ever stabbed anybody. Yes. Okay. My one takeaway from that clip began being a little redundant here. Not only did Gypsy not talk negatively about Dee Dee saying that she was going to kill her, hurt her, abuse her, whatever. She was actually talking highly about Dee Dee to the point where it made Nicholas go to John, feel bad about what happened because of all her quote unquote accomplishments. That's what Gypsy was relaying to Nicholas. Completely the opposite of what you

would expect if this woman was such a horrible person. Now, I want to say this. I'm not saying Dee Dee was a hero. I think I've established that's not what I think, but clearly this quote unquote victim of Dede's abuse thought pretty highly of her and relayed that to Nicholas Godejohn. Yeah. I mean, even when she's talking to the police and even the first officer, she's like, oh, my mom and I did this. My mom and I did that. Like she's talking about all these good memories. And yet Nick said, like, I felt bad. I realized what a good mother she was afterwards. So Gypsy's over here like, I'm really sad we had to do this. My mom was such a good mom. She was so good to me. We were best friends. That's weird considering

the narrative that that's being fed to us now. Yeah. Now Nicholas also talks about he and Gypsy had sex in her bed afterwards, which he says was very consensual, right? So Gypsy's like, he raped me. Um, but then even after he raped her in the bed, she went home with him and he was like, I'm going to get married. We're going to get married. And she's like, that made me happy. Right. So clearly in my opinion, and I I'm not, I'm not able to say for sure whether it was a rape or not, but in my opinion, gypsies literally telling Nick in the text messages like, oh, my private parts are all shaved. I shaved yourself before I get it. I'm going to be wearing a nightgown, a sexy nightgown. I'm ready for you. They talked about, yeah, they talked about, but now you're saying he raped you.

You will lie and throw anybody under the bus as long as you get out scot-free. She hasn't told the truth about anything. She hasn't told the truth about anything. Why should we believe her on this? No. Anything. I don't believe, I always tend to believe a victim in these allegations, but with everything we have, it's just hard for me to take her at her word. And that's why it's like people are like, oh, you're victim blaming. And it's like, I don't want to. But also, I don't want to paint somebody a victim who's not.

But also, Gypsy is a victim of child abuse, in my opinion. I know we don't necessarily agree on that. That is a different issue. We've already talked about that for four episodes. Now we're talking about a murder and we're trying to decide whether or not gypsy was someone who was, I guess a victim in this murder where she was forced to partake or was she an accomplice?

That's what we're deciding here. The child abuse thing. We've, we've, we've established how we feel about it. You may feel differently. That's a separate issue. Are you talking now? Are you talking about everybody?

Everybody. Well, you know where you stand. And I think a lot of people know where they stand. I don't necessarily think that there wasn't some form of abuse. But do I think she was tied to the bed, handcuffed to the table? Yeah, you don't know. I don't because nobody, she never says any of this stuff until after she's charged with murder. And to me, like anything you say after you're charged with murder that you never said to anybody before ever. I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that. But so anyone who says we're victim blaming, that's because you are combining the two different crimes. Factitious disorder imposed by on another and murder two different crimes, factitious disorder imposed on another and murder.

Two different crimes. The fact of the matter is, if she's going to use a self-defense claim, she would have had to have felt like her life was in danger at that moment. That's my- Dee Dee was sleeping. She could have walked out of the house as she had done before. This was not the only option. It wasn't even in the top 10 of options. Yeah, I'm with you.

We can keep going. Let's keep it rolling. All right. So now Nicholas is going to talk about the murder from his perspective, which is honestly the only perspective that matters at this point, because he is the one that did it. He's an open book and he doesn't, he's going to tell you exactly how it went down. Exactly. So when you're stabbing Dee, where is she at? She's on her stomach. On her stomach where? On the floor, in the bathtub, or somewhere different? She was on the bed, her bed. Her bed, in her bedroom?

Yes. Okay. So was she sleeping on her stomach or just laying there watching TV? Sleeping on her stomach. Okay, so she's laying in her bed, sleeping on her stomach. Is she covered up with covers or uncovered? Um, actually when I did it, it seemed like she had her, it was almost like a nightgown on it, it seemed like. Okay. And she barely even was covered at all.

Okay. So it was easy access to her party. Okay, so she didn't have a bunch of covers on her, it made it a lot easier to do that. Okay. So it was easy access to her party. Okay. So she didn't have a bunch of covers on her, it made it a lot easier to do that? Yeah. Okay. And so when she's laying there, where's the first place you decided to stab her? I just was in the random spot in the back. In the back, just random? Yes. Do you know how many times you stabbed her? Four. You stabbed her four? Yeah four times. Okay. The fourth one I felt it go into I think it might have been her lungs. Okay. It was harder to get out. Okay. Did it take one hand to get it out? Two hands? I had to yank it out. Okay. With one hand. i did so the others came out easy but this one that one kind of came

out harder yeah okay and so um you only stabbed her four times are you sure about that well as in stabbing i stepped before okay but i did actually cut her one other time besides that okay where'd you cut her out on the back of. Okay. Did she scream or holler or? Yeah, she did. What was she saying? Uh, first she said help and then she didn't know, she didn't recognize who I was. Okay. She said, who are you?

And then. She said, who are you? Yeah. Okay. And she didn't recognize who you are and she says help and then what does she say? And then she called up for Gypsy but Gypsy didn't do anything. Okay. She hollered for Gypsy? Yes.

Did she holler for Gypsy once, twice, five times? Three times. Three times? And what was she saying? Can you tell me how she said it? Um, she pretty much yelped it. Yelped it? She was like, Gypsy! Okay. She was loud. And what did you do when she did that? Uh, it didn't stop me from keep on going. Okay, you just kept stabbing her? Yeah. Okay. Did you try to get Gypsy to come in and stab her? No, I would have never done that. Okay.

Um, so when you say four actual stabs, so those are the ones that went in deeper? Yeah. Was there some little ones? Um, there might have been, because I, truth is, I counted the ones that went in deep. I didn't count any other ones. Okay. So if there's any other ones you just didn't count those because they didn't go in as deep. Yeah. Okay. But you know that four of them went in deep. Yeah. Okay. Do you know where those four deep ones were? Are you counting the one in the back of the neck or not in that four? No. Okay. So this, the back of the neck would be something different. Yeah. It's completely separate. Wow. Really tough to hear. And I believe every word he's saying. And again, to think that she was yelling out for the person who was responsible for her murder. Just wow. I don't care how many times you hear that. And I've heard it a lot over the years, things like that never gets easy. help cook and clean. She's chatting with the police officer about Harry Potter.

I don't know if I, like hearing my mother scream for me as she was being murdered, hearing that in my head, I feel like that's all I would hear for a long time. Like I wouldn't be able to sleep. I wouldn't be able to eat. I don't know if I could function properly enough to put a mask on for the world that everything was fine. It would take a little while before I'd be able to do that. So it's just, it seems kind of like she doesn't care that her mother's dead. She's kind of happy about it. Like this is the ultimate outcome that she wanted and she got what she wanted. I'm with you. I think she's probably more upset that she got caught than the fact that it happened. I agree. So Nick also talks about how they went back to the hotel. They mailed the knife to his house. He said Gypsy filled out the shipping information on the box

because he didn't have good handwriting. And this will also give you an indication of how not a criminal mastermind Nicholas Godejohn is he's asked, like, where are the clothes that you were wearing when you committed the murder? And Nick kind of chuckles a little bit, and he's like, they're still in my duffel bag. I haven't even washed them yet. You know, it's been days. He murders somebody, and the clothes that he used to commit the murder, he hasn't even washed yet. He didn't try to get rid of them, throw them away, burn them. They're just in his duffel bag, you know, which I get. All right. When I come back from a trip, my suitcase sits there for a good two weeks before I unpack it. But these are your murder clothes.

Had Gypsy not mailed the knife back to his house, which they found in his closet at his home, that probably would have been in his duffel bag too. So he's just not a criminal mastermind. This is not his forte. So Nick also talks to Detective Moholy about his evil side, Victor. And it's interesting because she kind of pushes back and she's like, but isn't Victor like a part of you? And he's like, yeah, I would agree with you. He's a part of me. She's like, so who made the decision to even come to Springfield and do this? You know, that was you, not Victor. And he's like, yeah, but you know, Victor like influences me. And Gypsy also has like her evil side, Ruby. And Detective Moholy is like, have you been diagnosed with this? And he's like, I probably should be because it's been happening for a while.

You know, so he's once again trying to distance himself from the murder. He's trying to distance himself from Victor, the person who committed the murder. Now, they go on and on about that a little bit. Nick also talks about how he really didn't do a lot of cleaning afterwards. The gypsy took those sanitary wipes, like Clorox wipes, and was cleaning. She was trying to clean anywhere that she thought his fingerprints could be. And he said, well, I didn't want to do any cleaning because I didn't want to make more work for her by putting fingerprints other places. So I kind of just let her do that. So let's hear some final words from Nicholas Godejohn before we give our final thoughts. Have you ever done anything like this before?

No. Okay. Have you ever killed anyone else? No. Are you sure? No, I haven't. Are you positive? Yes. Have you thought about killing someone? Well, I might have had the thoughts going in my head, but I've never actually done it until it happened to Dee Dee. Okay. Do you think you'll ever kill anyone else? Um, I can't see it happening.

Okay. The reason why at first, I just want to clear this up. Okay. The reason why at first I was lying want to fill this up. Okay. The reason why at first I was lying is because I thought me and her agreed on a lie story. Yeah, most people do agree on a lie story. And that's the reason why I went with it. Yeah, I know. And then I learned that she told me everything, so I just let it all out. Okay. And that's part of the reason why I wasn't sure if she was going to talk to me right away or not. Because I was ready to tell her to do it that way, but I just didn't know what she did. Yeah.

Because I'm trying to follow along with the full thing, whether it's the truth or not the truth. I want to make sure that I get the full story straight with what she says, too. Okay. Do you think you've done that so far? I only hope I did because I've told her only nothing but, so. Okay. Do you think you've done that so far? I only hope I did because I've told only nothing but the truth. Okay. If you could go back and change something, what would you do? I would have, the thing is,

this is something that me and Gypsy have talked about at least 100 times since me and her have been able to live together these days that she's been able to be with me. I kept on going back and I kept on asking her, because this is the question I kept on asking her before. I asked her if she was, I was the one who actually asked her before we even did this killing that happened. I was the one who actually asked her, are you sure you want me to do this? Okay. And then she said yes.

And after she said yes, that's the rest of the story you already know. Okay. But the question I kept on asking her besides that, I asked her, are you willing to risk everything to have everything you ever wanted? Okay. And that's part of the reason why she risked her old life to have one with me. Okay, I see what you're saying. You didn't really answer my question.

If you could go back and change any one thing about what has happened, what would you change? How this happened? Yeah. Oh, gosh. would you change? Oh, how this happened? Yeah. Oh, gosh. Would you change anything? Well, the thing is, is I would rather not kill the deity of the truth. Because that's the part, that's like the main thing I regret the most, the entire thing. Okay. Okay. Sometimes what I like to do is when people are cooperative and they tell the truth and they tell their story,

I like to offer them the opportunity to write an apology letter. Tell me now, if you had to apologize to someone for what has happened, who would you apologize to? The thing is, I do feel bad for Gypsy's family. I really do feel bad for them. I do feel bad for Gypsy. Heck, I feel bad for all of Gypsy's friends. There's so many people. So you would apologize to all of them people?

Yeah, I would try to apologize as much as I could. Okay. All right. So I thought it was interesting that he said he had talked to Gypsy and he was basically telling her, listen, are you willing to sacrifice your old life for the life you want? And it kind of made it seem like, I know your old life isn't that bad,

but, you know, a life with me would be better. Are you willing to end this life? Are you willing to throw it all to the wind if it means that we can be better? Are you willing to end this life? Are you willing to throw it all to the wind if it means that we can be together? And Gypsy was like, yeah. Once again, no talk about how her life was so horrible. She was being abused. She was in danger. Her mother was going to kill her. It's kind of like, yeah, this is your life and it's fine, but I can give you a better one. Are you willing to sacrifice everything you've had before for your future? Yeah. Yeah. All right. We had before for your future? Yeah.

Yeah. All right. We ready for the final thoughts? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to make mine straight to the point. I was writing notes this entire time. Here's my takeaway based on not only the DMs and the messages from last episode, but also the interrogation footage that we watched tonight and my opinion on the mental capacities of both

participants, Nicholas and Gypsy. I'm not a professional in this, but I feel like I can call balls and strikes, and most of us can just by watching these interviews. So here's my takeaway. First off, this does not appear to be a self-defense case where Gypsy was in fear of her life, and whether it was immediate or relatively immediate where she kind of like a Menendez situation where they had to do this in order to protect Gypsy. This does not appear to be the case at all. It wasn't mentioned even once during this interview. And according to Nicholas, Gypsy spoke very highly of Dee Dee before, during, and after. Maybe she threw in some comments here and there, but overall it was nothing but high praise for Gypsy. So my opinion on Gypsy, not only was she a willing participant in this murder,

she was the mastermind. Okay. And as far as Nicholas is concerned, he, in my opinion, was not an equal partner in the planning. Rather, he was an instrument in the murder plot constructed by Gypsy. And as far as his involvement, if not for the manipulation and coercion on a highly impressionable person, Nicholas never kills Dee Dee. Doesn't happen. That being said, Nicholas is a danger to society. The fact that he can be manipulated into doing something like this for another person, for anybody for that matter, for even for himself, he's a threat. He's a threat because if she can do it, anybody can. I mean, not according to him, but yes, I completely agree with you. Anybody who handled him in the same way that she handled him would have gotten the same result.

Yes, exactly. And so knowing all that he is, he is a danger. That goes to the question. Who's, who's worse? What's worse? What's more dangerous, the gun or the person holding the gun? I think, I think they're both very dangerous, but here's the problem. We know that Nicholas is still in prison and has no chance of getting out currently and gypsies out. And that's a problem. So I know we still got more to go. I don't want

to go too far into the woods because we're going to talk about more and cover it in our final episode. But that's my takeaway. That's my takeaway. It's not based on anything other than what I've seen and heard with my own eyes and ears. So here's what I think. I think that Nicholas and Gypsy killed her mother so they could be together unfettered and so that they could have her money, which when you look at it, what, $4,000 or $5,000, not a lot, but they're thinking they're going to start a whole life with this money, right? They did that. And not until it hit the media, because when it hit the media, what was the most scandalous part of this whole story? It wasn't that this man and his girlfriend had killed her mother. It was, oh my God, we can't believe it. We thought this girl was 16. We thought she was in a wheelchair.

What the hell's going on? How do we fall for this? And then somebody mentions monstrosity by proxy. Was this monstrosity by proxy? I think that gave Gypsy the idea to now use this as her defense. That's what I think. I don't think that even occurred to her to say or to use or to claim until she was arrested for murder. And then she sees how the media is portraying it because that happened very early on. And next episode, I'm going to tell you exactly when that first happened and when it was first brought up. And then all of a sudden, Gypsy is spinning this tale about all these horrible things that happened to her. And once again, not saying that some horrible things didn't happen to her. This would not be, if I could choose the childhood to have, I would not choose Gypsy's childhood. I don't think anybody would. However, I really do think that that's what happened.

Because why wouldn't you have said anything about it? I mean, at the end, when he's walking out, he's like, you'll get your medical care in prison, man. She's bag borrowing and pleading. She's throwing everything at him. Nicholas said he was going to commit suicide. I need medical care. I can't go to jail.

I didn't do anything. Sir, sir, sir. She's begging him. Why at that point wouldn't you have been like, I was being abused since I could walk, since I can remember. I was being abused since I could walk, since I can remember. I was being abused. She's got stories and stories for days now.

But none of that happened. I think that it was a convenient scapegoat for her to use. And I'm not saying that she wasn't abused, but I don't think she was abused to the point where she's like, killing my mother is the only way out of this. And at the end of the day, that's the crux of the issue. Two wrongs do not make a right. Dee Dee being wrong doesn't make what Gypsy did to her right. And Gypsy basically pretending as if it was self-defense, because that's what's happening. This is not self-defense in any way, shape, or form. She is lucky she got that deal. Because once again, they didn't need it to get Nick. We have his full confession, right? He's like, I stabbed her. Okay, you don't need Gypsy's testimony against Nick in order to put him behind bars for life. I'm not sure why they gave her such a sweet deal. I'm really not. not a self-defense case and nobody can convince me it was which leads us to the next question of if it wasn't self-defense then she murdered her mother for personal gain a motive of personal

gain which was to live the life she wanted without her mother impeding her from being with Nick yeah well and that and that takes us to where we're going to finish out this series which now we are in a position where they're both arrested. They're both charged with murder, at least, and this is going to be going to trial. So we're all caught up. You guys have your opinions on it. Weigh in down in the comments below. Let us know what you think. We're going to wrap this whole thing up with the trial. Some of you already know what happened. We've talked about it multiple times. Do you agree with our assessment? Do you disagree with our assessment? And if you do, why? So we're going to finish it out. Very compelling case that Gypsy knew a lot more than I initially thought. And I'm really struggling to understand why she

was given such a sweet deal. It seems like they had Nicholas dead to rights. They didn't need her testimony. So why give her the deal? I don't get it. I also just want to say, I feel like anybody who saw her in her police interview would not have a hard time understanding why I don't believe a word that comes out of her mouth now. Because I see how seamlessly and easily she lies, how she does it as easily as breathing, right? And you could say her mother made her into this. Fine. That doesn't mean she's not a liar. It means she's a well-trained liar. It means that that's probably now a part of her personality, right? An inextricable part that you can't remove. But it means she's a liar. And so it's very difficult for me to believe anything she says

now, especially because her story, even to this day, every time she's on a different podcast or being interviewed by a different publication, it changes. It's modified. It's slightly different. So this is why I have a hard time believing anything that Gypsy Rose says. And I don't think that anybody who watches what just went down in that police interrogation could disagree with me. I really don't. We will see in the comments. Guys, we appreciate you being here.

Thank you for riding along with us through that entire episode. It was a lot. Again, just to reiterate, if you're listening on audio, I think it's possible to do it. You can still hear the interaction, but it adds a different dimension with the video.

So listen to the audio, come over, check out the video, let us know what you think. And if you haven't already, I guess this is the time to plug it, like, comment, subscribe, leave a comment on the Apple podcast or Spotify as well. We get to see those, read them, follow up with them

and hear your opinions on this case. So until the next episode, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye.