Crime Weekly - S3 Ep252: Crime Weekly News: Verdict Reached in Delphi Murders

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

On February 13, 2017, 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German were murdered while exploring Monon High Bridge over Deer Creek in Delphi, Indiana. It wouldn't be until 2022 that an arrest would be made in the case, and on November 11, 2024, Richard Matthew Allen was finally convicted of Abby and Libby's murders. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. UncommonGoods.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 15% off your next gift!

Hey everyone, welcome back to Crime Weekly News. I'm Derek Levasseur. And I'm Stephanie Harlow. And we're going to be covering a case that we've covered here on Crime Weekly before. It's the Delphi murders. We covered it once, that we've covered here on Crime Weekly before. It's the Delphi murders. We covered it once. We did a series on it. We had family members of the victims on the show. Stephanie's going to get into all that detail. And then we did a Crime Weekly news on it when there was arrest. And we said we would do another Crime Weekly news on it when there was some type of resolution in the trial. And some of you have been hitting us

up in the comments. They want us to do like a deep dive. There's not going to be enough because if you want, you can go back and watch, I believe it's a three-part series, maybe four, on the Delphi murders. We went with the Snapchat murders because of what was the use of communication at the time. Now everyone refers to it as the Delphi murders. That's what we will refer to it as going forward as well. So Delphi murders, we've done a deep dive on the initial stages of it. There were some developments as far as the arrest. We went into the pretty good detail about that, the ballistics and all that stuff. And now we're going to be covering the conclusion and the results of the trial, which I'm sure most of you already know. Quick thing about Gypsy Rose, we've gotten all your feedback from

the series. It was a lengthy series, but I just want to say thank you for the comments and feedback. Not everyone agrees with Stephanie. Not everyone agrees with me, but it's been very cordial and people have voiced their perspectives in a respectful way. And that's what it's all about. We're not all supposed to agree on everything, but I think overall, what was interesting is that there was a lot of you who came into the series with one opinion and left with another. And that's what it's all about because we didn't present anything that was some secret piece of information that wasn't out there. What it shows us is that the narrative that was presented to most people in most platforms, most mediums was one side.

And so all we were trying to do was present that side and also the opposing side to give you the more well-rounded view of what took place and allow you to make your own opinions. Now, some of you heard the information and still feel the way you feel. But like we always say, the point of it is to be well-informed and to make an opinion after that. And at this point, I think anybody who followed that series, how could you not be? You've heard basically everything at this point. I know I feel like a Gypsy Rose expert now. So again, thank you for all the feedback. Thank you for supporting us and the show and joining in on a series where you may have heard about it before, but still took a shot on us to let us tell our side of it. And you got something out of it. Most of you did anyways. I got a lot out of it. Oh, I know you did. E-begging. That was the big takeaway from the series.

75% did not know what e-begging was. Yeah. Derek said he put a poll on it because I thought it was like, he's like, you should trademark that. Well, you're tagging me on Instagram. Yeah. So I reposted and put a poll. Well, I'm going to say with my chest, I'm not going to talk shit about you behind your back. I'll hear e-begging. Listen, listen. He's like, you should trademark that. I'm like, I didn't come up with it, man. E-bagging.

New for me. That's what they're doing. No. So that was Gypsy. That's in the past. We're starting a new series this week. You'll be hearing this later this week. It's Carrie Reid.

I'm really excited. Really excited. Yep. It's going to be a good one. Stephanie's already been calling me about it, giving me disclaimers and kind of giving me heads up, but nothing about the story. But tonight we're going to talk about the Delphi murders. We're going to talk about Libby and Abby. We covered this again, like I said, a while ago. The incident happened in 2017, but we're going to recap it a little bit

for anybody who's not up to speed on some of the highlight facts, and then we'll dive into where we are today. Yeah. So in October of 2022, 52-year-old Richard Matthew Allen of Delphi, Indiana, was arrested for the 2017 murders of 14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams. Now, Allen has lived in Delphi with his wife and daughter since at least 2006 in a home that's just about five minutes away from the scene of the murders, which is the Monon High Trail Bridge. He was a trained pharmacy technician, and before his arrest, his name had never been mentioned publicly in the case. That went unsolved for over five years. Now, Libby and Abby, if you remember, went missing on February 13th, 2017, after they had left for a hike over the Monon High Bridge, and sadly, their bodies were discovered the following day in a wooded area about half a mile off the trail.

So a criminal affidavit in this case was made public in November, and it showed that Allen was finally tied to the murders through a bullet found at the crime scene very close to Abby and Libby's body. It was an unspent.40 caliber round, which documents allege came from Allen's Sig Sauer Model P226. Now, this weapon was found during a search of Allen's home. Both he and his wife had admitted that he was the only person who had access to it. In an interview with police on October 13th, 2022, though, Allen claimed he had no idea how the bullet had gotten there, although he admitted in a 2017 police interview that he was on the Monon High Bridge Trail that February 13th day when Abby and Libby were murdered. So Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McClelland claimed in a hearing that Allen had confessed to the murders while behind bars more than once. We did talk about this a little bit. And Allen's own attorneys admitted that he had made, quote, incriminating statements implicating himself in the crime, end quote. But they insisted that the statements were vague

and couldn't be trusted due to their client's mental state. Apparently, he had been in solitary confinement for a while. In court documents filed in September, Allen's attorneys claimed, this is a crazy thing, by the way, that I don't know if you're aware of this, Derek, but it kind of seemed to come out of nowhere. These defense attorneys claimed that Richard Allen had nothing to do with it, that Abby and Libby had been killed as part of a ritualistic sacrifice carried out by members of a pagan Norse religion and a white nationalist group called Odinists. Have you heard this whole conspiracy theory thing yet? I have. And unfortunately, and I don't recommend this to anyone, and I'm hoping you're not even

familiar about this, but Abby and Libby's photos, crime scene photos were leaked online. And unfortunately, literally on Twitter, I saw one of them. And like accidentally, I would assume. Accidentally. I didn't search it. Yeah. It was removed. It was removed. And like accidentally, I would assume. Accidentally, I didn't search it. Yeah, it was removed. It was removed. And there were other people speaking out about it. It's still out there though.

It's disgusting. It's definitely out there, but I have heard about it. And I will say that once I saw the photo, there was something in the photo. I'll describe it for you. So you don't have to go look without saying anything too specific. It's a crime scene. And I will say that there were some sticks and branches in positions on top of them. That was interesting. And I'll tell you, as I sit here right now,

I can't completely explain it. I don't know if it was done intentionally. It seems like it's manmade. It seems like it was done intentionally. It seems like it's man-made. It seems like it was done intentionally, and it does appear to be some type of shape. But I can't tell you if it's correlated to anything more than just maybe an attempt to camouflage the crime scene. And I'm being very vague here, but that was my interpretation of it. But I see where that theory has been put out there. By his defense attorneys. Yep. And it leaked somehow. And that's what the, that's what they're saying, right? That that's how.

I wonder who leaked them. Well, yeah. Maybe, maybe the same people that were making the claims to begin with, who have had access to those photos. It's crazy. Well, it only affirmed or in the minds of the people who believe that in this theory, it affirmed their theory saying, look at these branches, look how they're placed. And then they actually had photos from this theory that would line up with that. So listen, we're going off the trial. But yes, I did hear the theory before. I have seen the photos. What I've said to you, if you haven't

seen them, that's all you need to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely one million percent agree. Now, I do want to give you a little breakdown just for the you know, I I'm not I'm not one to dismiss a conspiracy theory out of turn. You know that. So I looked into it a little bit. And according to the Indy Star, more than, you know, 2000 to 3000 years ago, Odin was believed to be one of the hundreds or even thousands of gods worshipped by Nordic people before the advent of Christianity. Now, Allen's attorneys say that evidence from the crime scene supports their theory. They say there were symbols fashioned with tree branches and painted using the blood of Libby. There were, you know, sticks placed over the girls' bodies to form Germanic letters associated with Odinism, kind of like Derek just

said. Allegedly, there was a letter painted on a tree in Libby's blood, fake antlers created with sticks and branches placed over Abby's head, as well as some of these branches reportedly being pre-cut with a power saw, which Allen's attorneys say suggest preparation and premeditation from this group of Odinists that are just running around Delphi. Now, in October, the judge in the case did not permit this evidence into trial. The judge basically was like, I don't really see where you're going with this, and I think it's just going to confuse and collude things further. So we are not going to go there.

But Richard Allen's attorneys do claim that the police did investigate a possible link to Odinism in the investigation, but then they spoke to an expert in Odinism, and then they abandoned that theory. Once again, I don't know how you can really be an expert in something that happened 3,000 years ago. You know, before, like, I just think it's so, like, they don't even know how many gods the Norse people actually worshipped in general. Like there's so much that's not known. I'm not sure how you can be an expert in something that far back that doesn't have that much concrete evidence. But like I said, I'm all about conspiracy theory as much as the next person.

However, this case, because Derek and I do know some of the people involved who lost these. We had Kelsey on the show. Great people, great families. Yeah, we had Kelsey on the show, Libby's sister, and she public trial, all of these crazy theories and the crime scene photos being leaked. Like this is. They've come after. They've come after Kelsey a couple of times. They've come after them.

Tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. The Internet for for somebody like the families of victims can be a blessing or a curse and sometimes both at once. I just can't imagine. And I don't think that this like, listen, I 100 million percent believe that Richard Allen is the person responsible for this. Now, the police did say and even the prosecutor said they can't say for sure he did this alone, although he has, you know, when he confessed a million times in prison in jail, he said he did it alone. But they cannot say for sure that he did. But for his attorneys to say he wasn't there at all and there was just some random group of Odinists running around fashioning antlers with, with, you know, with like table saws. It's, it's hard for me to swallow. And it's like, this family has been through, this family's been through enough. So yeah. Oh, it's just awful. Yeah. And I want to go more into not only the verdict, but why I also agree with it as well, but we'll get there. We'll probably cover that after the break. All right. So last week after 17 days of testimony and 19 hours of deliberation,

a jury found Richard Allen guilty of two counts of murder and two counts of felony murder. So during the trial, we found out how the girls died. We did not know before. It was very, very much, you know, kept private, which honestly it should have been. We didn't know how they died. We didn't know if they had been sexually assaulted or not. But now we found out, whew, it's awful. Now we found out with the trial that both of their throats had been cut. Abby had a one inch deep, three inch long incision on her neck. And Libby had several incision wounds on the right side of her neck, the longest being 3.5 inches long.

Initially, they were maybe throwing around a theory that a serrated blade had been used, but now they believe that a box cutter was used. Now, although Libby was naked, rape kits concluded there was no DNA evidence showing that either girl had been sexually assaulted. We also found out that in the spring of 2023, after Alan had been in jail for a little bit, his behavior became very strange. He started hitting his head on the wall. He would wash his face in the toilet. He refused to eat, and sometimes he would eat paper. He smeared his own feces on the wall. He smeared his own feces on his face. He began confessing to the murders, not only to his wife, which we have reported on previously, but also to a psychologist and several different corrections officers. So psychologist Monica Walla testified that during one of Alan's confessions,

he told her he saw the girls on the trail. He followed them to the bridge. He ordered them to go down the hill. He intended to rape them, but then he saw something that spooked him. It was either a person or a van. And so he was startled. Allen claimed he then ordered Abby and Libby to cross the creek, which is when he slit their throats and covered them in branches to hide them, right? Allen's defense attorneys and a neuropsychologist who testified for the defense claimed that Allen had not meant these confessions. He just lost touch with reality after spending 13 months in solitary confinement, and this can change the brain chemistry of a human. But Michael Clemens, a corrections officer, testified that

Allen had told him, quote, I, Richard Matthew Allen, killed Abby and Libby by myself. No one helped me, end quote. He was also known to shout at other inmates, telling them he wasn't crazy. He was only acting crazy. Another CO testified that Allen told him in April of 2023, quote, I killed Abby and Libby. My wife wasn't involved. I want to confess, end quote. This CO, Michael Roberts, also said that a few days later, Allen told him, quote, Can I talk? Can you listen? I killed Abby and Libby. How do I prove I'm insane? End quote.

OK, so either Richard Allen. I mean, I believe he killed these two girls. A hundred million percent. I believe it. So to say that somebody went crazy after being in solitary confinement, after what he did to these two, he was already not well. OK, this person already didn't have a firm grip on reality. He wasn't, you know, all there or right in his head to begin with. So are we really seeing somebody that went crazy after being in solitary

confinement? Or are we seeing somebody that was already not right, who committed a crime that he knew he got caught for, confessed to, to his wife and a psychologist and corrections officers more than once, and then was like, hey, maybe I should start acting crazy so I can pretend I'm crazy when I go to trial for this crime that I don't want to take any accountability for, because he did plead not guilty. I want to talk more about this, but let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, Derek, we're back. Yes, we are. What do you think about this?

No, I'm pretty much on board with you. To recap, there's not video evidence of the murder, but I think overall the prosecution put together a pretty good case. You had the ballistics. We talked about it in the older Crime Weekly News. Yes, which is, I think, the main evidence that sort of. It was a big thing. It was the first thing that was kind of put out there, which was this cycle, I should say, 40 caliber round. And we talked about the ballistics of it, where if a bullet is inside a gun, even if it's not shot, when that bullet goes through the gun and is manually extracted, you've seen it in the movies, it'll kind of like, you'll see the

round fly out into the air. There's an extractor claw that's on the side of the barrel and it kind of, it grabs the back of the bullet, it pulls it out and then throws it behind you. And what happens is every gun is different, but there'll be what's called striations on the side of the gun. And I've seen it done a million times. It's fascinating. They can take that shell casing, usually brass, and they can put it under a microscope and all those striations can be recreated if you have the gun that created them to show a distinct pattern that's only created by that specific firearm. So what they did, as you said, they were able to find the gun because I can tell you right now without the gun, you can't do this. So that is the smoking gun.

And so when they got that, they brought it into a lab and they put an unspent round in there. They, they racked it through and they created the same situation. And then they took the shell casing that they had extracted through the gun and compared it to the unspent round found at the crime scene. And what they found was a similar pattern. That's how they're able to connect that gun to that unspent round. It was right near the area where the girls were found. That's a problem.

That's a problem, especially when it's not a hunting area. What did you, because when we first talked about this unspent round, you had a theory for why that bullet was ejected. Oh, 1000%. And it was the same reason that they went down the hill in such a level of compliance without running. We set it right out. More than likely, he had a gun. Yes, he did.

Yeah, they believe he did. And when he said, get down the hill, we can't see it, but we can hear it. And more than likely at that point, he's pointing the gun at them. And to create a higher level of fear, maybe they start not complying. Maybe they start pushing back a little bit or asking questions or speaking loud. So to show them that he's not kidding around, he racks around. Hey, this is a real gun. There goes a bullet. And in the moment of everything going on, he forgets that that round's on the ground

somewhere, or maybe he just couldn't find it. And so that would explain that. And that's not the only thing you have here, though. So that's the round. Or he thought because he didn't shoot it, they wouldn't be able to compare striations. I mean, that'd be moronic. but yeah, I guess it's possible. So a defense witness, Dr. Aaron Warren, actually had called this an apples to oranges comparison, right? So the bullet was eventually or initially compared by Melissa Oberg, who was the former Indiana State Police crime lab technician.

She examined the unspent round found at the scene. She compared it to Allen's gun. So this expert, Warren, called it an apples-to-oranges comparison, saying Oberg compared the initial round, which had been cycled, not fired, to a bullet fired from Allen's gun. And Oberg said on the stand earlier that an ejector mark was an ejector mark, regardless of whether a round was cycled or fired. But Warren disputed that testimony, saying the lab needed to identify tool marks under the same conditions in which the bullet was found.

Let me just stop you right there. Let me just stop you right there. Bullshit. That's why I wanted you to hear that. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. That's actually absurd for that defense to even be made. She is 100% right. An extractor mark is without a doubt an extractor mark. Now, should they have done it in the same

way? I don't know why they wouldn't have. I don't know why they would fire around. That doesn't make sense to me because it just gives them an opportunity to say, oh, it's not the same, but I'm here to tell you. And I always qualify by saying I'm not an expert in ballistics, but I have specialized training in ballistics. And I can tell you with 100% certainty, the extractor striations would not change whether the round was fired or not. And the fact that it was the same, not even under the same conditions, in my opinion, makes it even more of a fact that it belongs to his gun. So they could have just redone the examination

under the same circumstances to dispute what she was saying. But this is someone grasping at straws. There's always this subjectivity with these experts. You talk about it all the time. I talk about it all the time. That's absurd. And I don't come out, and I'm not that strong about opinions often, but.

This is a defense witness. I like to specify this bullshit. It's bullshit. I promise you it's bullshit. I own a lot of guns. You know this. I consider myself someone who is pretty well versed in firearms. That is not true. That is emphatically a lie. They said, uh, McClelland, the prosecutor said the state proved that the unspent round found between the girls' bodies, found between the girls' bodies, not just near them, between them, cycled through Allen's gun. Testing was confirmed three times by the technician's boss. And keep in mind, remember, they pulled all Ford Focus spotted near the trail that day, was the only one registered in the county, and it belonged to who? Richard Allen. Yeah, so what's my favorite phrase? Totality of circumstances. If it was just a bullet and

nothing else, there could be an argument to say, yeah, I was out there. I was playing with my gun. I was racking it in the woods and I left the round there. That round could have been there for years, right? Okay. Let's just put that aside for a second. You just mentioned the registration. Okay. Let's talk about some other things. He confessed nearly a dozen times, but let's put that aside for a second too, because his mental condition, right? He may have just been saying that. And by the way, I don't believe that. Quote unquote mental condition. Let's talk about one of the specific confessions, which you already mentioned, Monica Walla. In that confession, you said it was a white van or a person. So I have it right here.

During the whole confession, he says, yeah, listen, I was going to rape them. And then I got spooked by this white van that was driving into a private driveway. So I went across Deer Creek and then I killed them there. Well, investigators went back. They found the white van. It was owned by a Bob Weber. And Bob Weber testified that right around the time, right after the girls would have been kidnapped, he pulled into that driveway. He was driving his van home from work around the time of the murders. So the question is this, how would Richard Allen know that information? How the hell did he know that? Right. That, my friends, is called guilt knowledge. Only would be known to the killer.

And then on top of that, if that's not enough for you, okay, and this is a little, this is a little bit more of a gray area, but there's been multiple people, law enforcement officials, one of them being a state trooper who said he's listened to over 700 calls from Richard Allen from the prison over to family and friends or whatever. And comparing what he has learned about the, the voice of Richard Allen and compared it to the voice of the guy saying, go down the hill, it's him. It is him. They can identify it. They hear the similarities. They hear the intonation. They hear the accent. It's him. That's a little bit more of a gray area for me. If we only had that, I think you could find a defense expert that would say it's not him. But to me, the strongest piece in this case is the guilt knowledge.

And then a close second is the unspent round, which would only create those markings to one specific gun, which happened to be owned and in the possession of Richard Allen. Richard Allen. It's like, come on. We're going to say that this guy was just in the wrong place, wrong time. Come on. I will. Just for the people out there, you know where we stand on it. Okay. And I'm very happy for Abby and Libby's family that

they've gotten justice because as we know, especially here on Crime Weekly, this doesn't always happen. We don't always get our guy. And this is one of those cases where it took longer than it should, but they got them in our opinions. Now I know when I posted an Instagram post about the verdict, everyone was very respectful, but I did get a lot of DMS. And a lot of you were saying that you've watched other YouTube channels or other documentaries, whatever it was. I didn't look too deep into it where you're not convinced he's the guy. And some of you were even more forward than that. But here's what I'll say.

You're entitled to your opinion. We're entitled to ours. I think they got the right guy. Stephanie thinks they got the right guy. He's a freaking guy. He's going to have the opportunity to appeal. Now, once again, maybe there's somebody else involved. That even the police, even the prosecution said there

could be right. There could be, but he definitely, but he definitely was there. I don't care if there's somebody else involved, that's going to be up for him to talk about or them to figure out he was there. Think about this. Unless this other person came in from the other side, we have video and photos. There's nobody around him. It's him on the bridge. There's one way in, one way out. And there is a back way.

We talked about it where it's like a graveyard. The Odinists move through the woods, man. I don't know what to tell you. They move through the leaves. They fly on the wind. Like, come on, man. I think it's the guy. We've had stronger cases against people.

We've also had much weaker cases where the person was also convicted. So I feel like this is probably on a scale of 1 to 10, maybe a 7, maybe a weak 8 as far as the evidence against him. I think it's pretty overwhelming and I think some of the evidence against him is pretty specific. It's not just, you know, witnesses or whatever. It's it's you have actual forensic evidence that can tie him to the scene. And I don't want to say for certain, but I thought I saw somewhere in one of the articles where he even went as far as during one of his confessions saying, I covered them with branches. He did. Yes. He said it to Monica Walla, the psychologist. Something that would only be known to the killer. That, he said it to Monica Walla, the psychologist. Something that would only be known to the killer. That would only be known to the killer. Are we going to say that he maybe

made some designs with like you're not you murdered two people. You can't be like, why would he make just well, why would he kill them when his plan was to rape them? And then he got spooked, but he killed them anyways. Yeah. OK, like this person doesn't use logic. We don't know what's going on with him. OK, but but he's not a normal minded person because this is what you decided to do to begin with. So, like, I can't tell you what the hell he did with branches or why he made designs, if that's the case. But I don't I don't need to. OK, I don't think that a that a secret society of white nationalist Odinists were traipsing through the woods with antlers that they pre-cut on their table saw to ritually sacrifice two little girls. And if Stephanie doesn't think that, you're in trouble. I know, right? Exactly, man. She's the head of the conspiracy theorists. I am the president of the conspiracy theory gang. Yeah. So if she's not buying it, it's not good. But no, I think overall, and this also shows us that not every case is going to have DNA.

You didn't really have it here. There was a strand of hair that was in question. It didn't come back. I believe it came back to Libby or Abby. It didn't turn out to be anyone. I believe it was Kelsey's, actually. That's right. It was Kelsey's.

I apologize. Which makes sense. It makes perfect sense. They lived in the same house. Yeah. And we had known some facts about the case that Kelsey had disclosed to us off record that they weren't important to the story. And it lined up with what we were thinking. And overall, my takeaway is that I'm and I say the word happy. I'm relieved for Kelsey and her family.

We've had the chance to meet the rest of Libby's family at CrimeCon, a few different occasions. And, you know, I think I even interviewed them at one point. Yeah. These are great people. They're great people. They didn't deserve this. Nobody involved with this deserved this. I hope he rots in prison for the rest of his life. I hope he never sees the light of day. Well, he hasn't been sentenced yet, but. Nope. Well.

I think he's facing over a hundred years. Yeah. He's going to appeal. He's going to appeal. But, you know, I'm thinking about them. They have something better than's facing over a hundred years. Yeah. He's going to, he's going to appeal. He's going to appeal, but I, you know, I'm thinking about them. I hope they have something better than the Odinists when he appeals. Yeah. Okay. No, they're going to have to go after the evidence. That's all you can do. They better, they better like, um, produce these Odinists for their appeal. They're going to have to start naming names. Okay. Thinking of them, thinking of the family and the silver lining that we as a community can take from this is that although it can take time, there is justice out there. You just have to be determined, disciplined, and focused on the task at hand. It seems like Richard Allen was initially identified

as a witness he was spoken to. And I've heard a lot of criticisms about this case, probably justifiably so. But I'm glad to see that despite those mistakes in the beginning, they were able to find the guy and they got justice because this was one of those cases with the photo and the video. It was just so difficult to believe that in today's society, nobody knew who this guy was. And every time I think about this case and how it's concluded, I think back to the photo of Richard Allen, his smug look with the description of the image behind him. Oh, the actual picture hanging on the wall at the restaurant they were at. He was like having dinner with his wife. And there's a picture of him. They took like a selfie.

And there's the picture of Bridge Guy behind him. And it looks just like him. But, you know, it was the odinists the the the odinists used the old norse magic to to change their their appearance and and dress like you know they were about to go to a construction site i thought they wore robes and there's nothing to support it the only thing i saw was the tree branches everything else points to Richard Allen. You're going to have some doubt in every case. The question is, is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt? And I think here it was. I think here it was. So if there's any updates, if there's any major impact in the case or

something changes, we'll obviously let you know here. But overall, I think at this point, now that the families have gotten some answers and have gotten some justice, it's important to just let them start the healing process, if that's even possible, and move on with their lives. Because now they're not only living for themselves, they're also living for Abby and Libby. And I hope that they find some solace in the fact that the person responsible for all this pain, he's going to die in prison. And that's the best you can hope for in this situation. Any final words from you? No, that's it. Okay. We're out of here. As always, we appreciate you guys being here. Like, comment, subscribe. Let us know what you think about this case. I know there's going to be some dissenters in the comments. Give your reasons why we want

to hear them. So we will be back later this week with the Karen Reed series, part one. Everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.