Crime Weekly - S3 Ep300: Peggy Klinke: Stalked, Ignored, and Silenced (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

**If you or someone you know is experiencing stalking or domestic violence, there is help. Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org.** Peggy Klinke was a vibrant young woman whose life would be derailed by a relationship with a man named Patrick Kennedy. What began as just a short romance became a years-long campaign of stalking, threats, vandalism, arson, and psychological terror—all of which Peggy documented in painstaking detail. Despite her repeated cries for help, the justice system would fail her again and again: law enforcement would ignore her, and Patrick's obsession would eventually escalate into violence. We're coming to CrimeCon Denver! Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY for 10% off your tickets! https://www.crimecon.com/CC25 Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. https://www.HelloFresh.com/CrimeWeekly10FM - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY10FM to get 10 FREE meals and a FREE item for life! 2. https://www.SkyLightCal.com/CrimeWeekly - Get $30 off a 15-inch calendar! 3. https://www.EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping! 4. https://www.Ollie.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get 60% off your Welcome Kit! 5. https://www.TryFUM.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get a FREE gift with your journey pack!

You know where your business would be without you. Imagine where it could go with more of you. Well, with Wix, you can create a website with more of your vision, your voice, your expertise. Wix gives you the freedom to truly own your brand and do it on your own. With full customization and advanced AI tools that help turn your ideas into reality. Grow your business into your online brand. Because without you, your business is just business as usual. Go to Wix.com.

In the late 1990s, Peggy Klinke moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico, ready for a fresh start. She was building a new life and dreaming of medical school, but everything changed when she met a man named Patrick Kennedy. What began as a brief romance quickly spiraled into something much darker. Patrick isolated Peggy from her family, took control of her life, and then refused to let her go. As the abuse escalated into stalking, vandalism, and arson, Peggy did everything she could to get help,

filing police reports, documenting the harassment, and preparing for trial. But no matter how many pleas she made or how much evidence she brought forward, her concerns were minimized and dismissed. And while Peggy was doing everything she could to protect herself, Patrick was planning back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur.

Yes, you are. And right now, if you're listening to this, I'm getting ready to go to Canada. And if you're watching this, I'm in a hospital bed right now. Not as he speaks. Maybe having some delicious frozen juice or something. Something frozen juice. Yeah, I don't know. You know how they give you the cups with the straw?

Okay, yes, but it's not frozen. But what I'm going to say right now is, have you ever noticed hospital ice is just unparalleled? I mean, I'll let you know. I'll let you know. I'm having, as we speak, I'm getting ready for hernia surgery. We're recording this a little early because I'm going away to I'll let you know. I'll let you know. I'm having a, as we speak, I'm getting ready for hernia surgery. We're, we're recording this a little early cause I'm going away to have this surgery done.

I've mentioned it a couple of times on my lives, but yeah, so I'm, I'm in a bed right now and you're probably sitting by the pool having a liquid IV pina colada or something. I don't know. I'm doing that. Yeah, maybe. Y'all know you don't do no work. These days I have time for nothing. I see your Instagram posts.

You're sitting there posing, looking out into the distance. That was years ago. I'm calling you out. You're blushing right now. That was years ago, man. I gotcha. I've had a young adult fiction book I've been trying to read for the better part of a year. So I'm waiting for one of those pool days.

But yeah, Derek's going to go and get some medical work done. Hopefully he survives. Fingers crossed. I'll be back. Hopefully. If not, don't forget me. If not, we will memorialize you in our hearts and minds. Thank you. And Crime Weekly is going to have to find a new host. I think Keith Morrison's available. I mean, listen, I wouldn't be mad at that. I know. I think that, I think Keith Morrison's available. I mean, listen, I wouldn't be mad at that. I know. I think that would be perfect. But anyways, we are diving into a new case today, as you could hear from the teaser. So where can I kind of just get into it? It's a very important case. We did once again, work with family members to get this information. So, you know, as always, as with any case, try to be respectful in the comments. Yeah. These aren't fictional characters.

These are not fictional characters. They're real people. Their family members are still fighting for awareness and justice. And so they will probably be in the comment section. Oh yeah. They'll be, they'll be monitoring it as they always do. Try not to be an asshole. I think that's, I think that's a life, a goal for life. Try not to be an asshole. I think that's a life, a goal for life. Try not to be an asshole. It's a good motto. It's a bumper sticker. All right. So Margaret Mary Klinke, who went by Peggy, actually my grandmother's name was Margaret and she also went by Peggy. So I kind of, it's super cute, but Margaret Klinke, she went by Peggy. She was born on December 2nd, 1970 in Youngstown, Ohio, to her parents, John, a banker, and Kathleen, a stay-at-home mom. She was the third of four children with two older sisters and a younger brother.

Peggy's oldest sister, Debbie, who we worked with for this episode, told us their family was incredibly close. She described their upbringing as storybook, filled with love and lots of quality time together. And honestly, that's great to hear about that. Very few kids get storybook upbringings. I think every parent hopefully wants to give their child that, but life happens and things outside of your control happen. But for Peggy and her siblings, they had a really good childhood. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like I get a guilty conscience when I'm like, yeah, pay it. Just go read the iPad.

I know. Me too. I know. I know. I know. Also, I just feel like iPads are terrible for kids. It's this overstimulation thing. They are convenient for the parents,

I will say, but it is hard to not get caught in that trap. There's many times where I'm like, hey, put it down, grab a book. And then they look at you like, what's a book? Yeah, where are those? What is a book? A read? Outside of school? No, but nothing like starting off the episode making me feel guilty as a parent. I said it because I feel guilty as a parent. I think every parent feels guilty. I'm going to go ahead and say that. Weigh in in the comments, guys. As a parent, even if you're doing your very best, do you still always feel guilty?

I think that's just a part of the job description. Even if you don't, just say you do so we feel better about ourselves. Can you make us feel better about ourselves? Yes, thank you. So Debbie said that her sister Peggy stood out among their siblings with her blonde hair and blue eyes, a striking contrast to the others who all had brown hair and brown eyes. Peggy was also the most outgoing of the group. She had the type of personality where people were naturally drawn to her. She was brilliant and determined, someone who always followed through on her goals. Peggy had a passion for fitness, especially dance. She danced all through grade school and high school, and when she attended Kent State University, she minored in dance and joined the university's dance troupe, performing with them for all four years. She graduated with a degree in marketing and later moved to Italy

with a man she was dating who served in the military. When they returned to the United States in the late 90s, they settled in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where he had been stationed, but the relationship didn't last, and after it ended, Peggy decided to stay. Albuquerque felt like a fresh start. It was the perfect place for Peggy because she loved being outdoors, and the area offered plenty of opportunities to hike and stay active. Peggy had big plans for herself, and Albuquerque gave her the space to focus on them. She decided to take additional college classes and began studying for the MCAT, hoping to go to medical school. While working on these goals, she met a man named Patrick

Kennedy during a study group. And we're going to talk about Patrick in a second, but first I want to ask you, Derek, have you ever been to Albuquerque, New Mexico? I have not been to Albuquerque, but I will tell you, you hear about it all the time and I hear mixed reviews. Some people say it's a place you have to visit. Some people say don't waste your time. What are your thoughts? Have you ever been there?

I've never been to New Mexico at all, right? The closest I've ever been to New Mexico is like Nevada. And that's close, right? Like Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, they're all in the same general area. One of my best friends was stationed there when he was in the military. And he said there wasn't much out there. But again, he's on a military base and a little different environment. In Albuquerque, he was stationed there.

Yeah. So there's a big military presence in Albuquerque. I believe so. I don't, are you asking me or telling me? I think that because he was, so Peggy's boyfriend, the one she was in Italy with, he would end up being stationed in Albuquerque. That's how they ended up there. So it does seem like there's a big military presence there. It's just one of those places where unless you have to go there for a specific reason, it's not really on your way anywhere, if that makes sense. That's, I guess, where I would summarize it. It's like desert mountains. It's pretty, but I'm not sure. They said that it gave Peggy the space to focus on these things. I'm like, yeah, there's a space

there, right? It's very wide open, very flat. They's a space there, right? You know, it's, it's very wide open, very flat. They have a downtown area, but outside of that, I mean, it's actually, it's actually the 32nd most populous city in the United States and the fourth largest in the Southwest. I'm looking on some, I'm looking on the albuquerque.org, visit albuquerque.org website. And it says they have like hot air balloons, golf courses, mountain biking, hikes, kayaking. Like, you know, it looks beautiful. It looks beautiful. Arts, culture, aerial adventures, casinos, nightlife, sports outdoors.

Hey, listen, this is an ad for Albuquerque, New Mexico. Maybe we got to go. I mean, I just look, when people are like, oh, I moved to, I went to a city and then I decided to stay there because I liked it so much. I expect it, like, I don't like a desert environment. I don't like an arid environment.

The dry? Yeah, I need moisture, humidity, water. Me and you have been starting to talk about the idea. We've been throwing it around that maybe we're going to do a tour. Probably next year, not this year. Yeah. Maybe we add one of the stops to be in Albuquerque, New Mexico. That's a reason to go there.

How about that? Oh, I also have been planting seeds in Florida. Florida is an easy one. That's a gimme. But Albuquerque, New Mexico? Albuquerque will be our Southwest location. There we go. So it actually looks cool.

They got some really cool history and stuff there too, and like petroglyphs and stuff like that. So ancient Native American carvings. Okay, I will go. Let us know in the comments if you live in Albuquerque or you've spent a lot of time there, would it be a place where you'd go and you'd be like, I can have a fresh start here. So Peggy met Patrick in Albuquerque.

And at that time, Patrick was divorced and had a young daughter. And almost right away, he started taking Peggy out on dates. But Peggy, honestly, initially felt uncomfortable with the situation. She felt like everything seemed to be moving too fast. She was still new to Albuquerque, and she'd been focused on building a new life. And at that time, her main priority was that. It was school, making sure her life was on track. And we all know that men can be distracting, very distracting, right?

I mean. So can women. It's distracting you all the time, right? Yeah, it's true. It's tough. It's tough to record, I'm sure. It ain't easy. I have to put the video portion of you behind all my other windows.

I get it. Otherwise, I'm just like Derek. I wish I could do something about it, but this is my curse. So, but seriously, relationships can be distracting, like especially when they're very intense and passionate at the beginning. And it's like you're going to spend all your time with that person and all the other stuff kind of falls to the wayside. And so Peggy's kind of thinking responsibly. She's like, hey, I want to be a doctor. Medical school is no easy feat, you know.

I mean, think about the fact that you're moving to a state you've never been to before. That in and of itself is difficult. Navigating the new terrain, learning the ins and outs, where do you go for your groceries, all these different things. It's a lot of stimulation. And then to add into that a new relationship, that's a lot. Yeah, but I almost feel because it's a new city, you don't know anybody, you might feel lonely.

And so you kind of want that. But at the same time, you don't want it to be as intense and constantly present as a new relationship is. Yeah. Looking for companionship. But she was like, oh, wait, I'm looking for people to have like familiar faces in the area. Yeah. Like somebody to get a drink with, someone to tell me about, you know, the local stuff, but not necessarily like somebody who's going to envelop my life. Right, exactly. So a few weeks after Patrick and Peggy started dating, Peggy flew home to Ohio to spend Christmas with her family. Then on December 29th, something unexpected happened.

Patrick actually showed up at Peggy's mother's house with a suitcase in hand. He said he had come to surprise Peggy for New Year's Eve, but Peggy did not like the surprise at all. In fact, she was completely shocked. Not only had she not discussed this with him, like, oh, maybe you can come visit, but she had no idea how Patrick had even figured out what her mom's address was.

Like, they'd only been dating for a few weeks. And this was late 1990s. So the internet wasn't like it is now. It's not like he could just hop online and look it up. It's very odd that not only did he show up without telling her, not only had they only been dating a few weeks, but he happened to know where her mother lived in Ohio. Yeah, this is absurd. This is absurd. This is absurd. This is absurd. Like as you're reading it a couple of weeks and you're doing this and with, you know, having the privilege of hearing the teaser like everyone else did and knowing at least somewhat where the story is going, I would argue that this wasn't even for like good reasons. It could have been something where

Patrick was concerned that maybe she had an ex-boyfriend back home or someone that she was close with who was of the opposite sex and he was wanting to keep tabs on her. He didn't want to lose her when she goes home and maybe rekindle something with someone else. I wouldn't be surprised

if that was in the back of his mind as well. Yeah, but after only a few weeks? That's what I'm saying. When we're talking about the teaser and what you've already conveyed to us. Yeah, you got ownership like that over somebody after a few weeks where you're like oh she might talk to her ex-boyfriend like oh if you're dealing with someone who's not in the right place to have a relationship yeah absolutely they think different than most people they're looking

at it like you're dealing with a crazy person you can say you're dealing with a crazy person he's looking at it like this she's mine yeah even after a couple weeks he wants to keep tabs on her how do you do that you show up at her door and he's already at it like this. She's mine. Yeah. Even after a couple of weeks, he wants to keep tabs on her. How do you do that? You show up at her door. And he's already starting to move fast and she's kind of like, Hey, slow it down. So he's already probably feeling a little insecure. Like why isn't she as into me as, as I am into her? Yeah, you're right. Something odd is here. I think it is more also, or not more, but also about like him making his presence known to her family. Like, hey, I exist. I'm the guy. Yep.

I'm her boyfriend. Or else why would I be here? We're official. Yes. So it's like forcing her to be in like a relationship with him before she was ready. Like I would have loved to have been there. Oh, you don't shove yourself on somebody's family. You wait till they're ready to introduce you to their family.

It's real crazy. Yeah. That right there for me, I would have been like, oh, hey, Patrick, I'm calling the police. Yeah. This is, this is, what did you call it? Absurd. Absurd. This is absurd.

So, but this was the moment that everything seemed to shift. And looking back, this wasn't just a surprise visit. It was the beginning of Patrick stalking Peggy. So we're going to take a very quick break, okay? And we'll be right back. You know what spring should feel like? Fresh air, warm sunshine, and food that doesn't stress you out. That's where HelloFresh comes in. Whether you've been craving creamy pasta primavera or something a little bolder like pecan crusted trout, HelloFresh has you covered with chef-curated meals that make home cooking actually doable.

And this year, HelloFresh is stepping it up with their brand new ready-made meals, flavor-packed dishes that are ready in just three minutes. They're perfect if you're short on time but still want something that tastes like you actually put an effort, and I find them to be perfect even when I'm not short on time because they just taste that good. They use only high-quality ingredients, seasonal produce, fresh proteins, and meals that feel as good as they taste. And with flexible deliveries, you can skip a week whenever life gets chaotic. I honestly love HelloFresh because it's so easy and it tastes so good.

I've been cooking with HelloFresh since 2020. It's crazy to think what a long relationship HelloFresh and I have had. And I know for a fact that my entire family loves it. The kids especially love getting in on cooking because it's so easy. Like I said, pre-portioned ingredients. So they really take the guesswork out of it and you can enjoy cooking and spending time with your family. You don't have to stress and look up recipes online and try to figure out what you're doing. And if you're doing something

wrong, it's just so easy. So great. And Derek's going to tell you how you can check HelloFresh out for yourself. Yeah, my kids love it as well. They get to see the final product on the card before they make it, and then they get to see how close they come to actually making it look like that. Spoiler alert, it never does, but that'll vary by user. So feel great. It tastes good, though. That's right. That's right. Feel great with meals that fit your spring schedule and make the season even more delicious.

Go to HelloFresh.com slash Crime Weekly 10 FM now to get 10 free meals and a free item for life. That's one item per box with an active subscription. Free meals applied as a discount on the first box. New subscribers only, and it varies by plan. Again, that's HelloFresh.com slash Crime Weekly 10 FM. So obviously Patrick shows up to Peggy's mom's house. And so Peggy's sister, Debbie, is also there, right? And Debbie told us that when Patrick showed up, she had a gut feeling that something didn't sit right. On the surface, he seemed fine. He was clean, well-dressed, and polite.

But the surprise visit rubbed her the wrong way. And then the red flags started piling up. Debbie noticed that Patrick seemed to be watching Peggy constantly, like his eyes always on her. He was also kind of controlling. He always had to be near her. He insisted on joining her wherever she went. He sat next to her at every. He insisted on joining her wherever she went. He sat next to her at every meal and tagged along for shopping trips and joined her when she met up with her sisters for lunch. He refused to leave Peggy alone. And yeah, this is red flag after red flag after red flag. Yeah, it definitely sounds like he's keeping tabs on her. And Peggy's like, I'm going to go get my nails done. And he's like, yeah, let me sit next to you for two and a half hours during the most boring

time of your life. So I can just make it like having to constantly be near her so he could hear what conversations she's having so he can control the narrative. So she can't get away from him with her sisters when she's having lunch and be like, yo, isn't it crazy? This Patrick guy showed up. He's making sure that he knows what's going on. He's not only controlling her, but he's kind of controlling everyone around her via Peggy. Yeah. And I mean, for Debbie, knowing your sister as well as you do, right,

you can pick up on the little things. She's been around her entire life. So I guarantee you, if Debbie was sitting right here with us right now talking, she probably saw it right in Peggy's face as soon as he showed up like, oh, this isn't a face of like happiness and surprise. Like this is a face of like, oh my God, what's going on right now? Even though maybe Peggy covered it up to a certain degree. Probably tried to, yeah. I'm sure Debbie and others picked up on it. Well, I have a sister that I'm very close to and we non-verbally communicate all the time. So family parties are always fun because somebody will say something and we'll both look at each other at the same time, and we know exactly what we're thinking. And that's the bond that sisters have, especially

when they grow up close. And you're exactly right. I'm sure that Debbie sensed in Peggy's body language, facial expressions, just in the way she probably greeted Patrick, that this was not expected. And yeah, Peggy is going to sort of try to keep that on the down low under wraps because she doesn't want her family to be like, wait, is there something wrong here? Is there something going on? Because she herself hadn't determined yet what was happening. Like, is this just an overzealous guy who is really into me? Or is this a dangerous person that I need to be concerned about?

Peggy didn't know at that point. Yeah. I mean, yeah, she's got to have, she doesn't really have time to talk to her sister either. He's everywhere. He's everywhere. So she can't really pull them aside and be like, Hey, is this for real? She can't get an opinion. She can't get a, you know, she's got a gauge, but she doesn't have any definitive conclusions. It'd be like, Hey buddy, get the out of here. You know, she can't do it. She doesn't have the voices of the people that she trusts and loves to tell her like, no, your, your instincts, right. This is weird. Well, there's boundaries too, right? We've all had a sibling who's dated someone we didn't like and you got to know your place. You want to be happy for them. You want to be cautious, but you also don't want to overstep

and cause issues between you and your sibling or your loved one. So I get it. It's a tough dynamic to navigate. You also don't want to be the person that's like, yeah, he's a scumbag. Break up with him only for them to make up. And then your sister's mad at you and she always knows that you hate him. Yeah, exactly. I definitely had at least one fistfight with one of my sister's ex-boyfriends. Yeah. It's like, you got to be careful about that though, because there's really no going back. And from then on. Well, I knew he was a bad one. I mean, he went to jail. So, but from then on, from that moment, when you make your opinion known, he knows you hate him. Your sister knows you hate him. I hated them. But more, but what I was more concerned about is I don't want

to say names, but my sister was a little upset with me at first. Now, of course, that's now she thanks me. Now she's like, Oh my God, you were so right. But at the time she needed me to beat him up first, you know? Yeah. But if this is a person who is trying to abuse your sister by isolating her from her family members, her being mad at you is going to make that that much easier for him to do, right? So that's the fear in it. So, and you'll appreciate this story, and I'll make it quick. It's not about me, but this particular person was being aggressive with my sister in front of my mom.

Oh. And then my mom stepped in a little bit and said something. And he basically like clapped his fist together in my mom's face. Oh, no. And I showed up in the driveway. And we'll just say there was no conversations between him and I. We'll just say that. Do you have this on video?

I don't. And that's probably a good thing. It was many years ago, but let's just say, uh, the only word was, what are you going to do? And that was the last thing he heard. Can we reenact this at some point? I just want to see what it looked like. You can ask my mom about it next time you see her. She'll tell you. Cause I pulled up in the car and she, did she call you? And was she like, this dude just clapped his fist in front of my face. And you were like, say less. I was around the corner.

Yeah. And at the time, my sister was a little upset with me. But, you know, overall, big brother was right. Big brother and head of household. You guys get that joke. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. So after that visit, Peggy and Patrick did continue to date. But as time went on, Debbie's concern deepened. And she obviously began to fear for Peggy's safety and for her own, as well as her daughter's.

She and her sister Marilyn started having conversations with Peggy about the relationship and what healthy love really looked like. You know, basically little interventions, just trying to plant some seeds. And Debbie thinks that Peggy probably wanted to believe things were normal and that she could make the relationship work. But over time, Debbie said she watched Peggy come to terms with the truth that the relationship would never be normal. Eventually, Peggy moved in with Patrick, and over the next three years, the emotional abuse escalated. Patrick would call Peggy names and tear her down emotionally, and then once she was low, he'd flip the script. He'd apologize, buy her something, he'd act incredibly kind, playing the hero after he'd been the villain. It is a textbook example of the cycle of abuse. In fact, I just saw this great interview

a few weeks ago, and it was with a guy who's in prison because he repeatedly found himself in domestic abuse issues, repeatedly. And he was married to a woman for like 15 years, and he was being interviewed by a psychologist. the psychologist said, we talked to your wife and she said, hey, things weren't always bad with him. They were really good sometimes. And he looked at the interviewer like the interviewer was dumb and he was like, of course, of course,

if it was bad all the time, she would have left me the first week. He said, of course. And then he said, I'm trying to think of his exact words, but he said, of course, you've got to push it as far as you can. And then you've got to know when to pull back and to be sweet and to be kind.

Because if you were just abusing them 24-7, which you want to, he said you want to abuse them 24-7. But if you were doing that, then you would lose them. So this makes it so that you can just keep this like, okay, I'm going to break you down only to build you back up. I'm going to throw you against the wall, shatter you, and then I'm going to put your pieces back together. And then I'm going to be the person that helped you when you were sad and down and distraught, even though I was the one that made you sad and down and distraught. And it's very, it's a mind, I wanted to say a word, but it's a mind F, can I swear? Mind fuck, it's a mind, I wanted to say a word, but it's a mind F. Can I swear? Mind fuck. It's a mind fuck. There you go. And so you completely don't know which way is up anymore. And you start to wonder like,

is it me? Am I wrong? Because he's super nice. Everybody sees he's nice. He does such nice things for me, but then he's not nice a lot of the time. So is it me? Is he just a nice guy and I'm bringing out this not nice guy in him? And it really is incredibly detrimental to not only your emotional health, but just your mental state. And I think it's an important point to make because we're talking about the bad stuff that was, in hindsight, you go, that was a huge red flag. But as you're kind of alluding to here, I'm sure there were a lot of moments where Patrick was wooing Peggy and kind of won her over because based on the story we just told you, and then the next paragraph, it's she moved in with him for three years. There's a lot of stuff in between there that was probably really good. And so it was, she was like, you just said it was mixing

the good with the bad. And I guess at that point, Peggy felt like the good outweighed the bad and she took a chance, but it maybe thought it would get better and clearly it didn't. Or you say like, hey, if I'm really good and I always do the right thing and there's just some bad times, I can get through and grit my teeth through the random bad times because the rest of the times are so good and you get hooked on this cycle of highs and lows. It's very dopamine-esque, like gambling almost. You kind of wake up and you're like, what's going to happen? Pull the slot machine. What's going to happen today? Am I going to get Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? And you're just hoping you get the good version because the good version is the best thing you've ever seen.

And it makes you feel so good and you feel so loved and so happy. But then you get the bad version and you just say, okay, I got to get through this bad time so I can get back to that good time so I can feel whole and good and happy and healthy again. And it's really, it's just an addiction cycle in your brain. Yep. Not a good place to be in, but it's unfortunately not the first time we've heard a similar story like this. So common. So common. So at the time, Debbie and her family obviously didn't realize what was happening. To them, domestic violence meant physical abuse, right? Someone hitting their partner, someone with visible bruises. And because they never saw any

injuries, at least physically, on Peggy, they didn't think to call it abuse. But today, they understand that what Peggy was experiencing was domestic violence, and now they know that there were resources out there that could have helped her. And hopefully, hearing Peggy's story helps somebody else. So at one point, after about a year and a half of dating, Peggy tried to leave the relationship. She called her sister Marilyn and said she couldn't stay with Patrick any longer. She said she was going to get on a plane and join Marilyn on her vacation in Las Vegas. But later that day, Peggy called again, and this time she said she felt sick to her stomach

and couldn't get on the plane. She was too scared to leave Patrick. Oh, I know exactly what this is. And it's far too common. We see this so much, but this is like codependency that is brought on by this addictive cycle that the other person puts you in. And it's really hard to hear it and see it and to know the torture, the internal torture that she was going through. Yeah. These characters, they have an ability to manipulate you and coerce you into certain things to the point where after a while, even when they're not around, they still have control. And it is. It's coercive control. And I'm so glad that now U.S. lawmakers are recognizing coercive control as an arm of domestic abuse.

And they're enacting laws. Yeah, they're enacting laws to protect people from it. So it's finally coming to a place where, you know, we know something's being done at least and people recognize it and people know what it is. And it's not just hidden anymore. Not long after that, Peggy brought Patrick and his daughter on an upcoming family vacation to North Carolina, hoping it would make things better. Debbie said that when everyone arrived, Patrick tried to put on a show to make himself and the relationship look as perfect as possible. That's what they always do, but it didn't work. Patrick just sulked through the entire vacation and kept a constant eye on Peggy. For seven straight days, he refused to let her out of his sight, making sure she was

never alone. And by the time the trip ended, Debbie's bad feeling about Patrick had only gotten worse. Peggy and Patrick continued to date, and the red flags kept piling up. At one point, Peggy came across a wedding invitation between Patrick and a woman named Margaret Mary, which is Peggy's full name. So naturally, she was immediately confused. Like, who is this? Who is this wedding for? Is this our wedding? Was I not invited? Is what the hell is going on? It reminds me of that, that scene and how to lose a guy in 10 days when Kate Hudson's character makes like a memory book and she she like meshes her face and Matthew McConaughey's face together to see what

their children would look like. And then she like Photoshop's pictures of her and Matthew McConaughey and with their fake children. And then he finds it and she's intentionally trying to scare him off. And he's intentionally trying to show his friends that he can like stay in a committed relationship and they're both miserable. Shout out princess Sophia. If you know, you know, If you know, you know.

I do know. You killed our love cactus. Great movie. But yeah, but this is, it reminds me of that. Like you, you encounter, you come across something like this and it just seems absolutely bananas. And so Peggy started to wonder if Patrick was planning to marry her without telling her. It's like he hadn't proposed. Usually the proposal comes first, right? And then maybe you'd pick out the wedding invitations together. I know we live in a different world now, but even back then, usually we let the woman kind of have the freedom with that. Yeah. Either help her do it and give her your opinion, but maybe that's her.

Yeah, figure out together what month. At minimum, let her know a date. Yeah, that's it, that's it. So she's like, is Patrick trying to marry me without telling me? And obviously that thought and this weird wedding invitation completely creeped her out,

which is a feeling you should never have to experience during a relationship. She was very unsettled by this. And later, Peggy learned that the invitation wasn't meant for her at all. Get this, Patrick had actually been married twice. Before the wife he had a daughter with, he was married to a woman named Margaret Mary, Peggy's exact same name. And Peggy knew nothing about it. And this kind of reminds me of when we were talking about Lana Turner and how every time Lana Turner got married, and then she found out that her husbands were lying to her about everything, and most of them had been married several times before, and they just didn't tell her. It's a very huge sense of

betrayal when you're with someone who's not being honest about their past. That should be something that you know and make the decision on whether or not you're okay with it before moving forward in a relationship with them. Yeah. I think we draw the line at if you were previously married to someone, that should be disclosed when you're living with someone. And he told her he was married before to one person. Just omitted the first marriage. Yeah. No, that's a problem. That's a major issue. Why? And the question becomes why you're omitting that one and not the other one? What happened? What happened? What don't you want me to know? Where's Margaret now?

So the marriage between Margaret Mary one and Patrick, it didn't last long. And Peggy never found out the full story of why it ended. But her family later learned that it ended after Margaret's mother showed up at the couple's house in the middle of the night and removed her daughter. She told Patrick that he would never see Margaret again and that she would take care of the divorce herself. So obviously we now know why Patrick didn't tell Peggy the full story about it. And why would Margaret go with her mom and not come back on her own later? There's a story there. Something was going on. If mom had to step in like that, it got to a boiling point. Well, I'm sure Patrick didn't leave Margaret alone and he followed her

everywhere so she could never say, hey, I need help from someone. And honestly, what it would do if Patrick had told Peggy about Margaret Mary, it would illustrate a pattern, right? If he had told her the truth about what happened, then Peggy might be thinking, hey, well, is what happened to his first wife happening to me? If he's capable of doing it to her, is he capable of doing it to me? It shows a pattern. He didn't want her to know about that side of him until it was too late.

Yep. He was definitely not disclosing that intentionally. So Peggy's family still doesn't know exactly what happened to that marriage to make the mother show up like that. But I think we can all agree it must have been pretty serious and probably something where Margaret was unable to leave on of her own free will. I know I say the phrase all the time and I didn't even come up with it. I heard it from Dr. Chris Mohandy. Shout out to him. What am I going to say when it comes to these cases? Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. Pretty close. Pretty close. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. So when

you're thinking about a tiger doesn't change its stripes, right? Zebra doesn't change its stripes, go with whatever option you want to go with. If They've done it before. They'll do it again. I say it all the time. And so he's not disclosing this information to Margaret number two, because he knows as smart as she is, he starts saying some things and she looks into it and realizes that he's done stuff like this in the past, which he's now currently doing to her to a lesser degree, at least at this point, she's got to get out of there because he's not going to change. So he doesn't want her to know. Yeah. He doesn't want her to know. Understandable from his perspective. Yeah. But it seemed like Peggy kind of found herself in this like serious, committed relationship where she's living with somebody

and she didn't even really want that. She doesn't really know who this guy is. Yeah. It kind of feels like this thing where it's like, oh, I'm not really looking for anything serious. And suddenly she's living with him. He's following her everywhere. And there was probably a point where she was like, how did we get here? Love bombs or wedges himself into her life, integrates himself with our family members and friends. And now he's just there. And I think it was just this organic thing where she's like, well, he's always around anyways. I do like him. And sure, this is like a natural progression, but there was nothing natural about it at all. He forced his way in.

Yes. Yes. It's kind of, yeah, it's kind of like Johnny Stompanato showing up and saying, I'm going to Acapulco with you and we're going to stay there for three months. Definitely some similarities there for sure. I was already thinking about that. I'm like two weeks, two episode cases back to back where you have this, this weird dynamic. Yeah. Well, it's unfortunately not that weird. It's pretty common. Um, and I think with, uh, Lana Turner and Johnny Stompanato that like happened

so long ago, people didn't talk about it then because they were embarrassed. But now we hear from women and we see in these true crime cases, this is an ammo. And it's like these, these guys read out of the same freaking playbook. All right, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Let's be real. Keeping track of everything these days feels like solving a true crime timeline. Between school events, appointments, deadlines, and dinner plans, something always slips through the cracks. And then you are always left feeling like you're dropping the ball in one way or the other. Until

now. Enter the Skylight Calendar, a sleek Wi-Fi connected digital display that brings your whole family schedule into one easy to read place. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook, basically whatever you're using, and you can view everything by day, week, or month. So I've been using the 15-inch HD touchscreen version, and honestly, it has been a game changer. I think it's great because I also color-coded everyone in the house. So the kids and everybody has their own color, and now there's zero excuses for forgetting chores, pickups, or what's for dinner.

Plus, with the free Skylight app, I can update anything on the fly. I don't have to be home to do it. So if I have a contractor coming and my mom's at my house for the day with the kids and I need to let her know, I can just send it right to the Skylight frame. She'll see it. It's awesome. No more texting reminders a dozen times or leaving sticky notes that get ignored. And hey, if you're not totally obsessed in 120 days, which is more than enough time to see how easy, how much easier this makes your life, you can send it back. No questions asked. So we love the

Skylight Calendar. Mother's Day is right around the corner. Father's Day is right around the corner. And I promise you that either one or both of your parents will find use and value in this Skylight calendar. It's awesome. Yeah, it really is great. I have one in my bathroom. I look at it when I'm brushing my teeth. In your bathroom? Yeah. So it's right next to my mirror. So the first thing I do in the morning, brush my teeth and I can see the calendar for the day. It's great. And they also have some upgraded features with the Skylight Plus that you can add on to it. You can do different things as far as iCloud backup. But right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to skylightcal.com

slash crimeweekly. So go to skylightcal.com slash crimeweekly for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. One more time, that's S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T-C-A-L.com slash crimeweekly. Okay, so in November of 2001, one of Peggy's close friends was getting married in Cleveland, Ohio, and Peggy was part of the wedding party and her whole family was attending. But Patrick wasn't invited. So Peggy booked a solo flight and made plans to stay at a hotel with the rest of the family. But Patrick was probably pissed off,

just like Johnny Stompanato was when he couldn't go to the Academy Awards. He's pissed off that he's not invited. And he obviously could not let Peggy have a moment alone. So at this point, he also had access to all of Peggy's credit card information. So what this point, he also had access to all of Peggy's credit card information. So what did he do? He canceled her flight. Then he booked a new one that included a ticket for himself. He also canceled her hotel reservation and made a new one at a different

hotel just for the two of them. What did you call it again? This is- Absurd. Absurd. He is operating on a whole new level. That's crazy. And Debbie obviously believes that this was Patrick's way of cutting Peggy off from the people who loved her. And it 100% was.

She thinks that Patrick knew exactly how Debbie felt about him. I'm sure he sensed it. And he didn't want Peggy to be alone with her family where they could potentially share their feelings about how they don't really like her boyfriend and how he's kind of a creepy creep. Debbie shared that once they were all at the wedding, Peggy was so isolated she didn't even sit at the family's table. It was like Peggy had her hands tied. She couldn't do anything. Then in early 2002, Peggy finally decided she'd had

enough. She was done. She walked out of the home she and Patrick shared with nothing but the clothes on her back and a few essentials. She left behind nearly everything, family, gifts, photos, furniture, and personal keepsakes from her time in Italy. And yeah, you will eventually feel that way. You know, eventually you're like, okay, we're going to separate and we're going to talk about it and I'll tell him I don't want to be with him and he'll understand and then we'll separate our stuff and we'll figure out what we brought in. And then you realize that the other person's just using that process to further the time you're together and he's making it last. And it never is the right time to

do it. And it's never the right time to have the conversation. So eventually you're like, I don't care. I will leave everything, everything, dogs, pets, clothes, important things. I will leave everything behind as long as I escape with my life at this point. Yeah, it definitely gives us some insight into Peggy's thought process at that time, clearly due to the sense of urgency and the willingness to leave everything behind, as you just said. It lets us all know, you don't have to read between the lines, that she was in fear of something and she didn't feel that she had the ability to stay behind, have a reasonable conversation, and amicably separate. She knew that the only way to get out was to go as fast as possible.

So that tells you what she was thinking at the time and how she perceived, at this point at least, Patrick. There was definitely a power imbalance there. She was in fear of him. And even though she probably valued these possessions, as you just said, her life was more important. I think she also knew, I can't have a conversation with him about this.

She had a self-awareness enough to know, like, if I try to have a conversation about this with him, he's going to manipulate me. And even if I don't, even if I go in knowing that it's still going to happen and I'm going to find myself here again, stuck in this cycle. She knew that intuitively. She was like, I know he's bad. I know I want to get away with him. But if I talk to him about it, I will end up staying. And I don't even know why I will. Yeah, great point. And I would say to even add on to that, this just tells us that this wasn't the first time because what you just said is exactly right.

She probably did try the other route at first. Talk to him, figure out how to separate and go our separate ways. And he would always manipulate the situation, maybe threaten her. So this was a last resort, right? This wasn't the first- Or tell her like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. You feel that way about me. I'm going to get better. I'll go to therapy. Let's go to therapy. Whatever it is, whatever it is. This isn't the first time where she just up out of nowhere decided I got to go. She probably tried other routes. And this was an evolution of this relationship where the other ways didn't work. And this was a last resort. Yep. She tried talking it out and her,

her conversations fell on deaf ears because he was not listening to understand. He was listening to respond. And his response was going to be anything that confused her enough to keep her there for another day, another week. So he could continue the cycle because every time that confusion, it might've been straight cycle. It might have been confusion. It might have been straight up threats. We don't know. We weren't behind those walls, but it could have been bad. So an hour after she left, Patrick called and claimed someone had broken into the house

and barricaded the door. He said he was terrified to be there alone and begged her to come back. And when Peggy reluctantly returned, she found a police officer at the house. The police officer is trying to figure out what had happened and who might have barricaded the door. And toward the end of their conversation, the officer asked if Peggy wanted to tell him anything else. She told him no after Patrick gave her a threatening look. As soon as the officer left, Peggy got into her car and drove away, never looking back. And so this is something else that these manipulators will do.

When you are able to get out of their sight for whatever reason, they will text you with some emergency situation, right? Something that they need you for, like it's life or death, okay? They're going to take their own lives or there's a fire started or, you know, one of the kids is sick, anything to get you back in their presence because they know that when you're there directly in front of them, they feel better, they're more regulated, and then they can focus once again on pulling you back into that cycle. But without you there, they're dysregulated. So they need to do anything they can to get you back in. It's usually going

to be something crazy. He's like, somebody broke in and barricaded the door. It's so stupid. I'm buying it. somebody broke it and barricaded the door. It's so stupid. So Peggy did leave again, thank God, but Patrick wasn't about to give up. He called Peggy's cell phone constantly, leaving message after message, even though she never answered. He told her he loved her and he wanted her back. And he even used his daughter as a manipulation tactic. And Peggy didn't just hear from Patrick. One day she received a voicemail from his mother. Patrick had told his mother that Peggy didn't just hear from Patrick. One day she received a voicemail from his mother. Patrick had told his mother that Peggy was the one who had ended things and his mother left a message saying

Peggy needed to leave town because she would come over and quote, take care of her, unquote, herself. So the mom's threatening Peggy now like, oh, you better get out of town because you broke my little boy's heart and I'm going to come over and take care of you myself. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Right, right. And Patrick also began physically following Peggy. He knew everything about her,

her routines, her schedules, where she liked to go. And because he ran a landscaping business and worked for himself, he had the freedom to follow her whenever he wanted. He'd show up at her work, at her appointments, anywhere he knew she'd be, he was there. And Patrick's behavior escalated over time. Peggy's family wanted to get her help, but at that time, stalking wasn't widely recognized as its own issue, and there weren't support services specifically for stalking. Shelters and women's centers focused on domestic violence, sexual assault, or crisis support, but Peggy didn't seem to fit neatly into any of those boxes.

So they didn't know who to turn to. As the stalking continued, Peggy started to change. And Debbie described it like watching a candle slowly burn out. Peggy didn't smile as much. She didn't laugh the way she used to. She had a darker outlook on life, one that felt so different from who she was before Patrick. Her sparkle was dimmed. She was constantly looking over her shoulder, worried about what would happen next. And

tragically, that feeling would only grow stronger as time went on. And once again, this is another tactic. And that's why he kept calling. And that's why he kept showing up. Because he knew if she could get out from under his thumb and regain her old life and get close to her old friends and her family, that she would mentally know, I'll be fine. But if he could keep her stressed, keep her anxious, keep her always wondering. Of course, mentally, nobody can take that. The constant fear that every time you turn around the corner, this guy's going to be there. You're so focused on that. You're so scared and stressed out about that, that you do fall into a depression. You start to feel like, what is this?

Like, I don't feel like my old self. There's just a darkness always over you. There's somebody always looming over you and you're constantly going over your shoulder and you don't know what's going to happen next. You're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And that was intentionally done. Oh yeah. It takes time. But when, like you said, separated from the family enough, they become conditioned. It's unfortunate, but it's, it's these abusers, whether it's verbal, physical, or both, they, they may not intentionally even have their means of doing it, but it's just who they are. And over time they start to chip away at the person they're with and they kind of mold them into what they

want them to be, unfortunately. As the stalking continued, Peggy met a man named Mark through her job in pharmaceutical sales. And from the very beginning, she was honest with him. She told him that she had a stalker and Mark initially brushed it off, telling her not to worry. He reassured her that he could handle it. But it didn't take long for Patrick to turn his attention towards Mark. I'm not surprised. As soon as Patrick knew who Mark was, I'm sure Mark was in the crosshairs. And somehow Patrick had a hold of Mark's phone number and began calling him and leaving threatening messages. He told Mark to stay away from his girlfriend, saying that Peggy was mine, and he even threatened to kill him. It was terrifying, and it would only get worse. In the following months, Patrick found out that Peggy's brother

had gotten engaged, and so he left a voicemail on the brother's phone saying he wished he could be a part of the family and attend the wedding, but things didn't work out with Peggy, you know? So he's like, oh man, I wish I could be there. Like if your sister wasn't being so difficult and I'd be part of your family, is this guy like not self-aware enough to know that none of these people actually like him? I don't think he is. I really don't. And that's something we've all seen, right? Like it has, again, these abusers, they don't even realize what they're doing. In their mind, they're the victim or they're the one in the right and everyone else is crazy. And I hope that nobody feels bad for these people when Derek says that because it's absolutely true. They don't think they're doing anything wrong necessarily.

And if they do know that they're kind of pushing the limits or like crossing lines, it's justified to them because they've been betrayed and they've been treated badly. And so whatever they do in retaliation, you deserved it. You asked for it. They are not sitting here like I'm a monster and being gleeful about it. It's worse than that. They genuinely think they're good people. They genuinely think that what they're doing is justified and right. Some of them may realize it behind closed doors when they look in the mirror, like, okay, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not doing the right thing here. But yeah, I think a lot of them, the best liars, right.

Are the ones that believe their own bullshit. And, and it might not be something they verbally said, but just the way they conduct themselves and the way they perceive the people around them, they're looking at it. Like they're the person who's in the right. And they're the one that's got their shit together and everybody else is crazy. That's why they were able to do it for so long because they actually believe the world they're living in. Well, they have to, right? Or their entire identity would shatter. And I've used this example with Chris Watts before, what Chris Watts did to his wife and his daughters. And then he's in prison. Like, oh, it was actually Nicole.

She's the harlot that dragged me away from my family. And actually my wife was controlling and horrible. It's like everybody else's fault except for him. But he has to believe that. And he's not lying. He genuinely believes that. He has to in order to wake up every day and look at himself in the mirror. He has to. Or he would have a mental break. And his brain is instinctively protecting him from that by basically fracturing in two. There's the truth that he keeps hidden in a little box. And then there's the fantasy and the delusion that he's created.

And that's the only place he's comfortable living. And that's what's happening here with this dude. Then in June, Peggy and Mark traveled to Orlando for the wedding because Mark's Peggy's boyfriend now. And they were there along with Peggy's family. And while they were in Florida, Patrick flew to Ohio and spray painted the words, PK is a whore across the garage doors of Peggy's mother's house. Oh, damn. I'm not surprised. Not surprised.

Not like this is expected. So the amount of pressure is going to be escalated. And the temper tantrums are going to escalate. Yeah. Yeah. The subtle, you know, just love bombing, whatever, passively, you know, forcing her, coercing her to do certain things to, okay, that's not working anymore. Now I'm going to use the threat of physical violence or I'm actually going to commit a crime.

Public humiliation. Yeah. Showing his true colors now. He's like, hey, you know what? F it. Let's just go all in. Yeah, I've said this before, but these kinds of people, they just want attention from their target.

They don't care if it's positive attention or negative attention. They are so emotionally infantile that like a baby, they will squeeze their fists and scream at the top of their lungs to get attention. And they don't care whether you're paying attention to them because they're doing a good thing or a bad thing. So just two days later, Mark heard from his mother, the police, and the fire department, who all said his house in Albuquerque had caught fire after someone had opened a gas line, causing $35,000 in damage. The fire was eventually ruled arson since there was no way the gas line could have come loose on its own. And to Mark, Peggy, and her entire family, there was no doubt about who was responsible.

It had to be Patrick. So now we have Mark. He's away with his new girlfriend in Florida and his house catches on fire. And obviously, yes, this is Patrick doing this. It's not just a random set of coincidences or a series of unfortunate events. It's Patrick. And once again, like we said, things are escalating. He's going from defacing homes to setting homes on fire. It's not good, but it's going to get worse. So we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. IQ Mix is a zero sugar drink mix from IQ Bar that hydrates, boosts your mood, and promotes mental clarity.

And listen, between researching cases, writing, you know, scripts, recording episodes, trying to remember where I left my keys, I need something that helps me stay sharp and hydrated. And IQ Mix has three times the electrolytes of your average sports drink, and it's loaded with nutrients that support your brain and body all day long. Plus, it comes in seven refreshing and delicious flavors, like passion fruit, peach mango, and my personal favorite is piña colada. It's so ridiculously good. These are very true to the real flavors. When you drink the peach mango, you can taste

the peach. You can taste mango. Piña colada, when I drink it, I feel like I'm on vacation, even though I'm not. Very, very good. And here's the best part. No sugar, no gluten, no soy, no GMOs, just clean, functional hydration, certified vegan, and kosher too. With over 20,000 five-star reviews, it's safe to say that IQ Bar is onto something. We love IQ Bar. I love the IQ Mixed Sticks. I know Derek and I love the protein bars. Yeah. Love all their products. They're great. Great company. So good. So I will let Derek tell you guys how you can check IQ Bar out for yourself. That's right. Right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners and viewers,

that's you guys, 20% off all IQ Bar products, plus get free shipping. To get 20% off, just text weekly to 64000. That's again, weekly to 64000. One more time, just in case you didn't hear me the first two times, that's weekly to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. All right, we're back from break. And I just wanted to elaborate on something you were saying before the break, because,

you know, it does. It seems like a pattern here where it started off where he was displaying the emotion, the behavior of, I want you. And now it's transitioned to, if I can't have you, nobody can. And I feel like we've seen this before. This is a common pattern where they try everything they can to make it at least appear that this is about their love and care for you. And when that's not working, it transitions to something else, something much more sinister. And again, I feel like I've said this story multiple times in different cases that I've covered, that we've covered, and it's kind of like this

similar story that they all follow. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm really, that we've covered, and it's kind of like this similar story that they all follow. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm really glad that we're talking about this because I think little things like this and then they start getting more intense and then they start rising in frequency. It's important if somebody's in a relationship like that, that they can see it so they can see commonalities

in what they're going through. And that's really what this is about, right? Crime Weekly, not to kind of get off the story here. We covered these cases because it's important for you guys to hear about them because I guarantee you there are people out there who are listening or watching this who may be unfortunately going through something similar, hopefully in the early stages. And there's no doubt in my mind that by listening to these episodes, whether it's here or on another podcast, you can learn from it, right? There's information to be obtained that can help you in your own personal life. It's not just to hear these stories while you're driving

to work, it's to educate and inform so that you can hear what the signs were and what ultimately happened based on the decisions that were made. And you may choose a different path going forward. So there's no doubt in my mind, if we had a small, you need to choose a different path, right? You need to, absolutely. But there's no doubt if we had this anonymous group and people were, could just be confidential or some people would want to be public, but I guarantee you some of these stories that everyone's listened to over the

years has helped them in their own life. It's influenced them to make a different decision. So I know for a fact they have, we've had people tell us that like, Oh, because of this episode, like I see now what I'm living with and I couldn't put a name to it or my finger on it before, but now I, and it's so valuable. And I mean, obviously that's what Peggy's family wants to. That's what they want. A hundred percent. They want this tragedy to be something that can prevent it from happening from someone else. And that's so admirable and respectable.

And we're glad to be working with people like that. Yes. Yes, we are. So we got Peggy's new boyfriend's house on fire. Right. And Peggy tried to explain to the authorities that this wasn't just an isolated fire. She told investigators that this was part of a larger pattern of stalking and harassment, and she pointed to specific evidence, like footprints left in the mud, which she believed matched Patrick's gait.

She even told them the prints could be compared to a pair of work boots she had once given Patrick as a gift. But even with all of that, Peggy's input was dismissed. Detectives treated the arson like a one-time event instead of seeing it as part of a dangerous ongoing pattern. No charges were ever filed against Patrick, not for the fire and not for the vandalism at Peggy's mom's house. This is a problem too, by the way, because even though you can make the argument that because it was in the 90s, stalking wasn't really a thing yet and law enforcement wasn't taking police reports for that.

This was an arson. And that was a thing in the 1990s. So part of our job, in case anybody didn't know this, as being a detective would be to work with the fire department and to investigate the crime and figure out who started the fire. So regardless of whether you believe this woman was being harassed or stalked and you took anything serious about that, if she's giving you information that may lead to the culprit, the person who did it, you should be following up on that. So this is a big mess up right here. Another issue too, I think, is that this is happening over multiple states. So the vandalism of Peggy's mom's house happens in Ohio.

Mark's house fire happens in New Mexico. So obviously this isn't like an FBI thing. Not an FBI thing. It's local law enforcement. Local law enforcement, but local law enforcement in Ohio and New Mexico aren't gonna be like, let's work together to get this weird guy. But Stephanie, they don't even have to.

That's what I'm trying to say. It's an arson in New Mexico. You have a police department there. You have a crime that occurred. Who gives a shit what happened in another state? You have to figure out what happened here. Somebody could have died. So the fact that they didn't follow up and interview Patrick for this crime, not saying anything else just for this crime regarding the boots and anything else that they could obtain through a search warrant, that is a problem. I mean, honestly, they probably just didn't care that much. Well, that's even a bigger issue.

It's property damage, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Somebody could have died. I don't know how big the fire was, but it could have been a lot worse. Yeah. And you don't know, did Mark have animals, like dogs or something? It could have been a lot worse. Yeah. Terrible. We've had multiple incidents where we had a homeless person who was lighting mattresses on fire and outside of houses. And most of the time it was caught right away. But one of the houses, the whole entire thing went up in flames.

Yeah. Well, obviously, fire is nothing to mess with. It's very serious. But I mean, what I'm saying is clearly these cops in Albuquerque were like, whatever. Yeah, they phoned it in. They phoned it in. They phoned it in. So as Patrick's behavior escalated, Mark and Peggy and her family in Ohio became even more vigilant.

They knew Patrick had access to personal information, and they knew that he knew exactly where they all lived, so they had to start locking every door and window, they installed caller ID on their landlines, and they kept deleted logs of phone calls and voicemails. They were very cautious about what they said over the phone or in emails, and they tried to avoid any personal conversations unless they were speaking to Peggy in person because they didn't know what Patrick was monitoring. And Patrick was probably in his glory, knowing that he's pulling all these strings and treating all these people like puppets, just keeping them in such a constant state of fear and

hypervigilance. And it gave him such a thrill of power and control, which is exactly what men like Patrick enjoy the most. So to know that he's causing disruption and dysfunction to Peggy's life. It's like, yeah, you can get away from me, but you won't be happy. You'd be happy if I left you the hell alone, but I'm not going to leave you alone long enough to realize that you're happier without me than you were with me. And that is another thing in these situations. Sometimes it feels like it would be easier to go back to that person because then the harassment

and the stalking and the constant meddling with like your bank accounts and your email accounts, all of that would stop and you could just breathe for a second. And that's why a lot of people return. Debbie told us about the additional steps she had to take to protect her own daughters. She felt it was necessary to warn them directly about Patrick. She told them, quote, if you see him, you need to come to me immediately. Don't get in a car with him. Absolutely nothing. You need to get in the house or find me wherever I am, end quote.

She worried that he might try to lure them away with something innocent, like saying he was taking them to get ice cream with Peggy. She couldn't shake the fear that such a moment would turn into something tragic and that her children could end up in the same kind of danger that had already stolen Peggy's sense of safety. It was a terrifying time for everyone. Patrick's stalking didn't just impact Peggy, it impacted everyone around her. The stalking continued, and one day, Patrick hid in the bushes outside Peggy's work, and when she arrived, he jumped out holding flowers and a wedding ring. He told her that he loved her and wanted to marry her, but Peggy ignored him and walked right past him. This rejection sent Patrick into a rage, and he decided to take things even further.

He made a flyer that featured Peggy's photo, and at the top it said, Have you seen me? Am I cute? Would you like to date me? The flyer included a series of lies and insults about how Peggy was a slut and a whore. It said she had cheated on her partners and would cheat on anyone who dated her. It claimed she had two abortions, that she had herpes, and that she, quote, wanted to share them. And it was all written in the first person as if Peggy had said it herself. And this, once again, is pretty common. We're not in the 90s anymore, so a lot of these men will set their ex-partners up on dating apps, for instance, and put their picture and put their name and their phone number and everything and their email address so that all of a sudden the woman's being inundated

with all of these messages from guys on a dating app she didn't even know she was on. And the dating app profile will say things about her like, oh, she's down for anything. You know, she likes freaky stuff, all this stuff so that she's just being inundated with a bunch of perverts. So it's just the newer, modern way of doing things. But apparently Patrick figured out how to do this in the 90s. And Patrick even put Peggy's phone number on the flyers. And then he plastered them all over Albuquerque, including in places he knew Peggy would see them, like her salon and job.

So after the flyer incident, Peggy and Mark brought one of the flyers to the police department and told the officers about everything Patrick had been doing, the flyers, the phone calls, the following, all of it. And they were hoping that someone would take it seriously. But when they explained the situation, the police told them that the flyer was just a piece of paper and said there was nothing they could do to help. But here's the thing. That wasn't true. Stalking was a crime at the time. New Mexico had enacted a stalking law back in 1997, years before Patrick started harassing Peggy,

which meant law enforcement absolutely could have stepped in and charged him. But they didn't. And I can't tell you why. I mean, maybe because it was new, maybe because they weren't taking it seriously, maybe because the police officers were men and they were like, oh, this guy just, you know, his heart's broken. He wants you back. I think that at that time, and this isn't a justification, you guys know where I stand on this. I think at that time, it's exactly what you're saying, where it's like, oh, these are two people. It's a civil dispute. They're arguing.

This is just a guy being upset because the girl doesn't want to be with him. He'll get over it, right? They're not looking at it through the lens that we look through it now where we, through education and obviously other cases and information, we understand as law enforcement officials now that this can escalate and it doesn't always subside and the guy doesn't always move on. And sometimes this pattern can ultimately lead to death. So we have to intervene when we are made aware of it. So again, back then, it wasn't that long ago when you really think about it,

but it was a different time and it wasn't taken as seriously. I'm not saying it's okay, but I agree with you completely. I think they looked at it. They looked at a guy who was scorned, who was upset that this girl didn't want to be with them. And it was going to blow over. She had a new boyfriend, right? So they're like, ah, you, you know, you, maybe you did cheat on

him. Now you got a new boyfriend already. So maybe the, you know, he's just, he's just hurt. And, and almost like blaming her, like, you know, he, he loves you, man. So. Yeah. I don't know the officers. I don't know if they were looking at her like, yeah, you kind of did this to yourself. I don't know, but I'm just talking on the surface at the time in the nineties, they weren't taking stalking and harassment complaints as seriously as they are now where they're documenting it because like we've seen in the, in the, in the more recent future that these cases where officers have an opportunity to intervene a la Gabby Petito, things like that, and they don't, and someone gets killed because of it, there

are ramifications for your action. There are consequences. Yeah, because now we have social media to call people out. Call people out. So even if the police, even now, don't necessarily believe in what they're hearing or feel a particular way about it based on their own personal experiences with women or men, they take the rapport as a cover your own ass. Yeah, which they should anyways.

They should, but that's what I'm saying. They're not letting those things go, especially with body cameras. But just to reiterate, not to justify, not to excuse. In the 90s, it was more so, you guys will get over it. Go your separate ways. Be big boys and girls. Yeah. Let him just cry it out and get his little temper tantrums out, and he'll find another girlfriend soon. Yeah, he'll get over it.

He'll get over it. Well, what's even more frustrating, though, is that Patrick already had a history of scaring women. After his divorce from his second wife, the mother of his daughter, several charges were filed against him for vandalizing her home. He had broken her windows and used a chemical paint peeler on her house. And in one of the police reports, his ex-wife made a chilling statement. She said that if the police didn't do something, Patrick would either kill her or kill their daughter. And she was terrified. And you might be wondering, why would he kill the daughter? He would kill the daughter to hurt the mother. That's right. That's what Josh Powell did, right?

So many of these cases where, well, a lot of these cases at least, where a parent kills a child is to hurt the other parent. That's why it happens. So that was a very valid fear. Patrick's ex-wife was obviously terrified at the time and for good reason. So we have now a history that he's doing this, documented police reports, and the police still aren't doing anything. That's crazy. That's wild to me. And unfortunately, Peggy wasn't aware of this stuff, right? So she can't let the police know like, hey, you need to go talk to this person.

There's a pattern here. But I do want to talk about this more because this isn't only about Peggy's case. It's about the bigger picture. And we're kind of diving into it now. But let's take our last break and we'll be right back. If your dog could talk, they'd probably file a formal complaint about what's been showing up in their food bowl. Mass-produced kibble, mystery byproducts, unpronounceable ingredients, sounds more like evidence from a crime scene than dinner. But Ollie is here to solve the case with fresh human-grade meals made in U.S. kitchens

from real, minimally processed ingredients, no junk, no fillers, just clean food for your canine companion. My dogs, I've got Rosie, I've got Belle, I've got Doc, now I have Alfie, the pup. They all go wild for this food and they especially love the turkey with blueberries recipe. And I love that Ollie tailors the meal plan based on their weight, activity level, and health needs. Even their welcome kit is thoughtful. It comes with a food storage container, serving scoop, and an easy transition plan because

you can't just start your dog on new food. You have to sort of like ease them into their new diet. And Ollie's tells you exactly how to do that. And yeah, I've noticed a difference. I've noticed a shinier coat, more excitement in mealtime, a lot of excitement at mealtime. And let's just say cleanup duty has been way easier. So I'm definitely going to try the turkeys and blueberries. I think it would be good. Turkeys and cranberries are good together and they're both tar. It makes sense. Yeah. No, I mean, listen, I read some of these,

these descriptions of this food and I got to tell you, I'm like, hmm, makes me hungry. Do I want to try this? I know it's lunchtime, but yeah,'m going to try it. Yeah, I think we all agree, dogs deserve the best, which means fresh, healthy food. So head over to ollie.com slash crimeweekly, tell them about your dog, and use our code crimeweekly to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you aren't completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. Again, that's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash Crime Weekly and enter our code Crime Weekly to get 60% off your first box. In true crime, it's always the little habits that lead to the big discoveries. And in real life, sometimes those little habits need a plot twist too. Meet Fume, a flavored air device designed to help you trade out some of those habits for something

smarter. It's not a vape, not a pipe, and definitely not another battery-powered gadget. Fume uses no nicotine, no vapor, just plant-based cores in fresh, clean flavors like crisp mint, peach blush, and cinnamon hearts. And peach blush is so good. I talk about this all the time. The orange cream scone used to be my favorite, but this peach blush flavor is so true to what actual peaches taste like. It's delicious. And it gives you that hand-to-mouth ritual without the baggage. Personally, I love the way it feels in my hand. It's sturdy, stylish, and super simple to use. And yes, like I said, Peach Blush is my current go-to flavor. It's got that just sweet enough kick that makes it easy to reach for. I think the device itself looks beautiful. It does

not run on batteries, so you're not going to have to be worrying about recharging. I got mine right here. I got mine right here. Can you see it? Show them how you got like little fidgets on there. Little fidgets. If you're watching on YouTube, you get the little... Little dials. I actually like the magnet. So I go like this. Click it apart. I got mine right here. You can see it. Show them how you got like little fidgets on there. If you're watching on YouTube, you get the little. Little dials. I actually like the magnet. So I go like this. Click it apart.

I like that. Yeah, I'm a dial girl myself. You're a dial girl. I like the clicking, the magnets. But yeah, and I like the vanilla, the vanilla orange. It's like an orange creamsicle. Yeah, an orange creamsicle. Yeah, that used to be my favorite.

You got to try the peach blush, man. I got to try the peach blush. I got to get on it. You do. Yeah. All right. So, and yeah, I love it. I'm a, I'm a dial girl.

Sometimes I get that dial going so fast. I surprised myself, but anyways, we love fume. Derek's going to tell you how you can check them out for yourself. That's right. Fume has already helped over 400,000 people take steps toward better habits. And now it's your turn. So get started by using our code crime weekly to get a free gift with your journey pack. So head over to tryfum.com. That's tryfum.com and use the code crimeweekly to claim the limited time offer today.

Go check it out. Things now today, 2025, this would be all, this should be all done. Police would be looking into his past, looking at criminal records, looking at previous police reports from his, uh, you know, prior spouses, all that stuff. The unfortunate thing here, not only was the time when, which it took place, but as you've kind of said throughout this whole episode, from the first wife to this incident that you just described before the break with the chemical, the paint peeling. With his second wife, yeah. With the second wife, Peggy doesn't know about any of this. Not yet, yeah. With the second wife. Peggy doesn't know about any of this. Not yet, yes. So she can't even relay this to the law enforcement officers at the time because he's done a great job of insulating her from who he really is. And that just tells you

how premeditated all of this was. Yes, but the police could have known about it, right? If they had looked into Patrick, even just a little, they would have, if they had even typed his name into their computer, those police reports would have pulled up. Not necessarily. And here's what I'll say. There is this, it should be this way and it is getting better,

but every internal database system that police officers have, ours is called IMC. They're not connected to other police departments. Now, as we go forward, there's systems that do have interconnection where you can access reports or at least the report numbers from other police departments and then follow up with them by a phone call to say, hey, I see in here that there's a police report for the subject that I'm looking into. Can you fax me over the report? But there are a lot of situations, especially at this

time where everything's segmented and you don't have access to other internal databases. So unless he was arrested for this paint peeling incident, there wouldn't be a record of it on his criminal history. It would just be an incident report that was taken by whatever jurisdiction took the report. And unless they knew to call that police department and ask them for it, they wouldn't have access to it. Especially again, we're talking 1990s, not 2025.

There is a conscious effort every year to get better where all of the systems throughout the country, even if the reports don't reach a criminal level, law enforcement officers, as you're alluding to right now, can put in someone's name. And if they've been involved with something in another state, even if it didn't arise to the level of them being arrested,

you could at least have access to the basic details. Other than it getting to the level of NCIC, which is what we use to run a background check on someone, that wouldn't pop up. That's an internal database among the different jurisdictions. So it is getting better now, but back then they still should have done it and maybe they did, but if they did, it probably wouldn't pop up. That's all I'm saying. I think that they probably could have. I think that if they had looked into him at all,

because we don't know if this happened in another state at all, because we don't know if this happened in another state. Who am I? I'm just a cop. I mean, we don't know if this happened in another state. What if it happened in Albuquerque? What if they typed Patrick Kennedy into their computer and they can see the reports from his ex-wife that he's defacing her house and that she's scared for her life? It more than likely wouldn't pop up. It more than likely wouldn't pop up. I'm just telling you, even at that time, there weren't even laptops in your vehicle, but you go you go back into the station You pull up your computer more than likely the database Again, just to reiterate where that report was taken was a different police department

Now if you told me it was the same police department, I completely agree But what i'm saying is two police departments police department a and police department, I completely agree. But what I'm saying is two police departments, police department A and police department B, they didn't have a way of communicating with each other internally on the computer systems. And I would even say in 1990, the computers weren't as prevalent. They were still using typewriters in some cases. So a lot of the reports that were taken were on paper. So it was a physical filing cabinet where it was. So unless the police officer knew about this Patrick's previous history and where they lived and previous marital relationships, and they would have to call that police department and say, hey, I am looking into this guy, Patrick. He may have lived in your community. Do you have anything on file for him? They would have to go

to that extent. And what I said earlier still applies here. They weren't looking into stalking and harassment at that time the way they are now. And so none of it's justified. It's why we make improvements in law enforcement every single day, every single year. But I'm just trying to be fair to the time that we're talking about because I'm very critical of law enforcement. But I have to also be fair about it based on the tools and the resources they had at the time. And they would not have been able to just punch his name in somewhere. And it would have popped up from another

jurisdiction showing an incident where his name was a person of interest or even just an involved participant that wouldn't just pop up like that. I don't know, man, if, if someone was telling me like, Hey, this guy popped out of the bushes with a ring. He set my boyfriend's house on fire. He defaced my mother's house. He's called me a million times. I'd be like, hey, I might want to look into this guy. He sounds kind of crazy,

but I get what you're saying. It's just unfortunate all around. The question is, how do you look into it? That's what at length are you going to? And I'm not making excuses. I'm just trying to clear the deck as people are going to be commenting on this. Let's be fair.

Let's be fair about everything. And I always want to see law enforcement do more, but I also got to, my job here is to relay the resources at that time too. And I can tell you they weren't what they are today. But it's still important to talk about. And I'm glad these incidents occur because we are able to grow and learn from our mistakes,

which is why if something like this happened today, to your point, we would be able to look into it. We would be able to put that name in a system and we would be able to see if they've had interactions with police officers in other jurisdictions just by punching in their name and date of birth. So, and I'm sure 10 years from now, it'll be even better. Hopefully. punching in their name and date of birth. So, and I'm sure 10 years from now, it'll be even better. Hopefully, hopefully these guys will have tattoos on their heads

to show that they should be stayed away from. That'd be great. That'd be great. So law enforcement wasn't taking action and Peggy ended up having to hire an attorney and she filed a criminal complaint against Patrick for everything he had done. And this would later be decided upon

at a trial. To prepare for the trial, Peggy and Mark began keeping a detailed stalking log. They documented all the phone calls, saved their cell phone bills, and kept a copy of the flyer in a secure place. Peggy also filed for an order of protection, and she was granted one, but then Patrick retaliated and filed one against her. In the document, he accused Peggy of being an alcoholic, claimed she had a substance abuse issue, said she was crazy, and that she had been harassing him and his seven-year-old daughter and was a danger to them both. And somehow it worked. Patrick was granted a protection order of his own. This isn't really a somehow thing,

to be honest. This is very common. They will give both parties a protection order, an order of protection, and then basically just let that stand. It's just more paperwork. It's more like kind of keeping a detailed log and having things on file. It's pretty common, actually, that people will file protective orders in retaliation and then they'll get it and then it just muddies the waters. But regardless, Peggy and Patrick were required to attend a hearing together. And according to Debbie, the judge looked at both of them and said that he had enough of them and told them to leave each other alone. But the moment they stepped out of that courtroom, Patrick called Peggy and said,

don't fuck with me, and told her that he knew how to play this game better than she did. So Patrick kept contacting Peggy, even though he was under a court order to stay away from her. He didn't care one bit. He violated the order repeatedly and continued stalking Peggy. She reported it, telling both her attorney and the police that the protection order wasn't working, but no one in law enforcement seemed concerned. And this is where it's a problem, by the way. I can make a justification for a law enforcement officer missing something from a previous marriage that wasn't disclosed in another jurisdiction, but now you have a documented history from the same victim coming to you asking for help, and you're not intervening.

Completely different case. Unacceptable. So, I mean, I've talked to police about this and they basically say like, well, what can we do? It is tough. It is tough, but you've got to continue to document it. You've got to continue to bring them back to court. And at least regardless, you're doing your part. But law enforcement is kind of tied here because it's not a crime at this point. You could try to charge them with it, but it's going to be difficult to get it over. He's violating a court order so they can technically arrest him. Right. But then he's going to be let out. He's going to get out.

He's going to get out and get out or two. And then he does it again and they arrest him and he gets out. And then usually what will happen is eventually someone gets hurt. Yes. And then it's the blame game, which I've talked about. I hate it. I don't know why it happens this way. The judicial system's all messed up. But yes, at this point, when you have this victim coming forward asking for help, at minimum, you could take the police report,

which would violate the restraining order, go pick them up on the court order. And at least for that night, that woman would have some peace. But they didn't do that. And that's a problem. So I don't care about the times at that point. I can give you reasonings why they may have not have done things before because of, you know, the, the tools they had at their disposal. There's no excuse here. Yeah. I mean, I understand there's really not all that much they can do besides like you said, put them in behind bars for a few hours. Yeah. Yep. Do their job. And then they, and then the guy gets out and he's even more pissed.

Yeah. I mean, it can escalate things. There were definitely calls that I went on where I knew that by doing this, I was doing my job and I was gonna do what they needed me to do, but it could backfire because I couldn't park at their house and sit there and protect her all night. As the woman in that situation, you have to do that because you need it on record that he's violating.

So when you go back to court, you can stand in front of the judge and say, hey, you said you're sick of us and you want us to leave each other alone. I have left him alone, but he's not leaving me alone. And then, and like you just said in the statement, the judge looks at both parties and he's in there, he or she is pissed off at both of them looking at them both like they're kids. And, and unfortunately for the judge, they're not in the home. So they don't know who the really the aggressor is. They can only go off what's being displayed in court. And always the real abuser will present themselves as like this angel at court. That's what they do.

Peggy went to the police to report the violations, and they told her to wait for the trial. But the trial kept being delayed. So Debbie told us that Peggy was constantly dismissed because she didn't have visible injuries. Without bruises or physical harm, the police minimized what she was going through, even And that is still, once again, very, very similar to this day. These men know how to walk the line. They know exactly what they can sort of get away from, what won't raise a ton of red flags for law enforcement. And they do that, and they do it repeatedly and repeatedly, and it's torturous and harassing and stalking.

So Debbie told us she was deeply frustrated by law enforcement's repeated inaction. She remembered telling officers, he's breaking the law. I need you to do your job. But despite all their efforts, Peggy's cries for help were ignored, and she was left to navigate the constant threat on her own with no real support or protection. At that point, all Peggy and her family could do was keep documenting the harassment and telling police what was happening. They were doing everything they could to build the case for trial. Debbie said they placed a lot of trust

in the criminal justice system. They thought, you know, there's gonna be a trial and he's gonna go to jail for this. But deep down, Debbie had a bad feeling. Her gut was telling her this could get really ugly and she was right. While Peggy was waiting for the trial, she decided the safest thing that she could do

was leave Albuquerque. She packed up and moved 1,000 miles away to Turlock, California, where she settled into a duplex. The woman who lived next door, Rachel, quickly became a friend, and for a little while, things felt more hopeful. At first, Patrick didn't know where Peggy had gone, and that gave her a bit of peace, but Peggy was also proactive. As soon as she moved in, she got to work warning people. She brought a photo of Patrick to her neighbors and told them that he was stalking her, and she warned them that he might find her and show up. She gave them her mother's phone number just in case something happened.

She also warned her co-workers about Patrick and told them that if anyone ever called asking for her, they should deny knowing her. She was doing everything she could to stay safe. Peggy was doing everything right. This is everything that you should do. You should let people know. You should call people, especially people that he maybe doesn't know you're close with,

he doesn't know you're friendly with, and tell them, you know, if something happens to me, you gotta look into this guy. Or if you see him, this is what he's doing. You have to let people know what's happening to some extent because these people will sort of just fly under the radar and act like nice guys. And maybe they encounter one of your friends or your new co-workers and all of a sudden they have all this access to your life again. Peggy even went to the Turlock Police Department to find out if her order of protection would transfer over from New Mexico.

But that's when she learned that it had never been properly filed. Somewhere in the system, it had been lost. If she wanted to refile, she would have to list her new address on the paperwork, and she knew she couldn't risk that. She didn't want Patrick to know where she lived, so she chose not to refile, which is the same decision I would make at that point. You got to weigh the pros and cons. You have to ask yourself, how well did this protective order actually protect me? And doesn't him not knowing where I am protect me a little bit more than some piece of paper that he never followed to begin with? Yeah. I mean, that's the problem with all of this, right? Like it is a piece of paper. You would think when you hear

about it, you think it's really going to protect you, but it doesn't. And you do have to weigh the pros and cons of it and the process to go through it. Is it really worth it? Especially, I don't know if she was planning on staying in Turlock or not, or was just a temporary thing. It sounds like it was a temporary thing. I think it was temporary. Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, listen, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I've never really liked these, you know, the restraining orders. I've always liked no contact orders better. There's a little bit of a difference with a no contact order. It is an arrestable offense on the spot that's usually issued to a victim of a crime, whether it's domestic violence. Even when they get arrested on a no contact order, they're let out within a few hours. Not necessarily. There are some variables that go into that. I can't promise you they're going to stay behind bars. But what I can tell you is this, with a restraining order, which you go

through the court process, it's a lot harder to get because you got to go there, you got to speak, you got to sign an affidavit. With a restraining order, what happens is the person will violate it. Then the officers take the report. Then it goes to the judge. Then they get an arrest warrant form. Then they go lock them up. But with a no contact order, at least it's immediate. If they find the person or they can prove that they were there, they can go throw the cuffs on them and they're in jail for that night until their arraignment. So yes, it's not perfect. It's not the best, but back to what I was saying with the restraining orders, it is a lot of work and it doesn't offer a ton of protection. And you said something a couple statements ago where it's like, oh, call us when he does something to you again.

That's what it usually takes. Call us when he does something to you. Yeah. When he does something to you. Something that we can see. That's a problem, right? Like, I don't think I'm saying anything that's super, like, new and innovative. We shouldn't have to wait until there's physical injuries before we intervene. And I know I sound a little bit like a broken record this episode, but we are getting better at it. It's still not good, but it is getting better. There are now times where just the words of the victim coming forward with something to prove that this harassment is taking

place, whether it's digitally or through voice phone, voicemail, whatever it might be, they are documenting what's occurring to build a story to eventually have someone arrested for stalking or harassment. So still got a long way to go, but yeah, it can be demoralizing with these restraining orders because they don't work the way you would like them to. And that's just the truth of it. Well, I mean, I think even a no contact is considered a restraining order. There's just different types. Like there's the stay away, which is like, oh, you can't be within a certain amount of feet from each other. And then the no contact is like, yes, if you reach out in any way,

whether it's email, phone, but they're both restraining orders. Technically, they're just different levels. They're different. One's a violation of a court order. One's a no contact order issued based on the crime. So you're at a domestic violence situation, or even it could be an assault where someone just, you hit someone or something like that. If you come in contact with that victim again, you can be arrested. No questions asked. Just you being there and the officers having proof of a previous incident where you were arrested, the no contact order is usually issued at the time of arraignment. Oh, this is, it's just, I see the way it's going and it's just not good. It's very aggravating. And obviously this is an incredibly stressful time. And like we said, Peggy moved to

California. But during this time, Peggy and Mark continued their relationship while he lived in Albuquerque. So they continued at long distance. And things became serious. And Mark actually purchased an engagement ring. His plan was to propose after Patrick's trial, which had been postponed again, this time to the end of January 2003. But those plans never happened because instead of giving Peggy the ring, Mark would end up burying it with her. Yep. Not good. And there's obviously a lot more to unpack and talk about. And like I just said, for me, where we are is this is a learning lesson. And Debbie has kind of said that as she helped put this episode together. There's nothing that's going to bring Peggy back, but maybe there's something in here that we're discussing that can prevent

this from happening to someone else. And that's really the goal with covering the series. There's no mystery here, right? There's very little lack of understanding of what happened here. Everyone knows where this was going and it's just this car crash that you're seeing and there's nothing you can do to stop it. But the reason we're covering it is to make sure that everyone knows who Peggy was in life

and not just as a victim, but also to take what happened to her so that you can learn from it, but also me sitting here as a former law enforcement guy, and maybe there's other law enforcement people or legislators who are listening or watching this, who hear this story and decide to make sure that they have stuff in place in their own jurisdictions, their municipalities to ensure this doesn't happen to someone else. That's why it's important to cover this case. I completely agree. And I know for a fact that there is a good amount of people listening right now who have

either been in a relationship like this and luckily gotten out or are in a relationship like this now and are looking for a way out. And let us know in the comments what you feel about it. If you need help, there are resources out there and you can and should seek those resources out. And if you need support, Derek and I are here for you always. Yeah, absolutely. And just to just to give you guys this and most of you know, I'll be on the screen right

here. The domestic violence hotline is 1-800-799-7233. And I think a lot of times when you hear domestic violence, you think of physical abuse, right? But it also can fall under, especially with the domestic violence statutes, the way they are now, harassment and stalking would fall under that. So if you're not getting the help that you need from law enforcement, contact your local DV advocate, but there are DV advocates in almost every jurisdiction, every state. We had one right

in our own police department. So if you're not getting what you think, the services that you need, the resources that you need, the resources that you need, call them because sometimes having that advocate speak on your behalf, they may have relationships with people inside that police department. Talk to them.

They can be your conduit to the people you need to get to and make sure that you have access to all the information and all the services that you have available to you to prevent this from happening to you and maybe to get you in a better spot. I promise you they have great local resources everywhere. And these people will help you every step of the way. They'll help you fill out paperwork. They will sit with you when you go in front of the judge. They will let you cry. They are there for you. And it's such a

complicated procedure to go through and you want to navigate and you want to make sure you're doing everything right. They really help you every step of the way, I promise. So please. And it's not always just stalking and harassment too, because I know that there's some people that are probably married and they're thinking, oh, I'm not being stalked or harassed. Coercive control is also domestic violence. These emotional, mental, verbal abuse, also domestic violence.

So just reach out to somebody, get help. There's people out there to help you. And like I said, Derek and I are here anytime you need us. That's right. Absolutely. We are here for you. We want everyone to stay safe out there. So we'll be back next week with part two of the series.

It's going to be the second and final part. It'll come to a conclusion, but final words. Thank you to Debbie again for being part of the series. Everyone seriously, stay safe out there. We'll see you next week. Bye.