Crime Weekly - S3 Ep316: Darlie Routier: Our Interview With Her Sister, Danelle (Part 6)

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

In the early morning hours of June 6, 1996, a frantic 911 call came in from a quiet neighborhood in Rowlett, Texas. On the line was 26-year-old Darlie Routier, who said she and her sons had been stabbed by an intruder while they slept in the downstairs family room. When first responders arrived, they found a horrific scene—six-year-old Devon and five-year-old Damon lying on the floor with multiple stab wounds, while Darlie was walking around, bleeding from several knife injuries of her own. As officers cleared the house and paramedics worked to save the victims, Darlie repeated the same story: a man in dark clothing had come into the family room, stabbed her and her children, then fled through the garage—leaving the knife behind. But as investigators began to process the scene and piece together what had unfolded in the Routier home, a new set of questions emerged—about Darlie’s version of events, the physical evidence, and what she did—and didn’t do—after the attack. We're coming to CrimeCon Denver! Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY for 10% off your tickets! https://www.crimecon.com/CC25 Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. https://www.Rula.com/CrimeWeekly - Take the first steps towards better mental health today! 2. https://www.HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 27% off site-wide!

You want the best for your child. K-12 can help them gain the skills they need to reach their full potential while giving you the support you need to get them there. K-12-powered schools are tuition-free, accredited online public schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade. Their state-certified teachers make online learning interactive and engaging, allowing your child to learn at their pace from the safety of home. Join the more than 3 million families who have chosen K-12. Go to k12.com slash podcast today to learn more. That's k12.com slash podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasser. So today we are actually sitting down and talking to Darlie Routier's half-sister, Danelle.

And during this conversation with Danelle, which we intended to be much shorter, but she was actually super cooperative. She had a lot of good information. She answered a lot of our questions, so we had so many questions that the conversation did just end up going... She had a lot to say too. Yeah, so we kind of just let it develop organically. We were initially going to do a full episode about, you know, Darlie Routier and from her side, why she might be innocent. We're still gonna do that next week. We're gonna sort of cut in clips from this interview into that episode.

But because it was such a good conversation, because we had so many questions, because she had a lot to say, we decided to just give this interview to you in full. So this will be part six. Next week will be our seventh and final part of the Darlie Routy series where we'll give our final thoughts. Unless we get some more interviews. Yeah. And you guys can tell us your final thoughts too, after it all has been said and done.

And we had several episodes where we talked about why we think that Darlie is guilty. Now we have a few episodes where we can hear from Danelle and see why her camp thinks that Darlie is innocent. And next week, we'll focus purely on why Darlie might be innocent and kind of from that side, what their view is on it and why she might be innocent and not guilty of this so we're trying to give it a fair shake all the way around yes we definitely and you know she was a little apprehensive

about doing it I told Stephanie I got on the phone with her I was trying to avoid getting on the phone with her because I wanted to keep it organic and I didn't want to discuss anything on the phone and miss it in the episode I want you guys to hear everything but we did talk on the phone and miss it in the episode. I wanted you guys to hear everything. But we did talk on the phone and I told her, listen, listen or watch part five. We're going to give our findings. I went into it not knowing what I felt. I now feel that your sister did it. If that makes you think that you don't want to come on the show, completely understandable. You don't have to, but that's kind of where we're at right now. But we're going to give you an opportunity to come on if you want and tell your side of it.

We're more than open to it. We have no skin in the game where there's no incentive for us to say one way or the other what we think about her. We're just calling it how we see it. And she was like, let me think about it. And so she listened to it and I was I was telling Stephanie I didn't think she was gonna come on but sure enough she showed up and I won't say anything more than that. We'll let you guys watch the whole interview again. Like Stephanie was saying, we didn't think it was going to be that long.

I don't know how long it's going to be with the edit, like just to kind of clean it up. We're not cutting any answers or questions out. We're just going to clean up the ums and ahs. And we had a couple of technical issues with like audio. And we had to go to bathroom breaks or whatever. It was a very long conversation. So you might see some cuts there,

but nothing was removed from this episode. It's gonna be played in its entirety because it deserves to be. She was a great interview. And I think regardless of whether you believe her or not, you're gonna get a lot out of the conversation. So here's that interview. We're talking to Danelle.

Danelle and Danelle is Darlie's half sister. They share the same mother. And before we start getting into this, cause this is not a, this is not an interrogation. We don't normally have guests on. I'd actually asked you if we could speak to Darlie. You had told me that she's working with the legal team right now and they requested that she not do that completely understandable. But you and someone you're familiar with reached out to me on Instagram.

And ultimately we have no skin in the game when it comes to these cases. We're not, we're not the prosecution. We're not law enforcement. The case is what it is. We just like to talk about it and develop our own opinions. And that's all they really are is opinions. So I just wanted to set the table here and say, we're going to have this conversation. We're having you on, because So I just wanted to set the table here and say, we're gonna have this conversation. We're having you on because as I said to you on the phone,

Danelle and I did have a chance to speak before this. She wanted to make sure we weren't gonna attack her or anything like that. And we didn't talk too much about the case, but I basically said, listen, we've developed our opinions. We've gone over the information based on what we have. This is what we feel. I don't wanna give you any misconceptions about where we are right now. That's, and I was transparent with you.

But I said, I'm always open to hearing a different side of things. And I reserve the right to change my opinion if I, if I'm presented with new information, but it's not just about me and it's not just about Stephanie. It's about the hundreds of thousands of people who are going to listen and watch this. And based on our comments, a lot of them believe that your sister is guilty as well. And so I think this is an opportunity for you to kind of give your side of it or Darlie's side of it. Maybe things they haven't heard before, not because we feel that you're right, but because we want to make sure all sides are presented accurately and people can

develop their own opinion based on that. That's all you can really ask for. Yeah. It is easy to believe what was created in this case because of the amount of media coverage that really saturated every form of media. You know, social media wasn't really a thing back then. It was the five o'clock news and the breaking news and every newspaper, all of that really was saturated pretty heavy with negativity about our family and about Darlie. And the picture that was painted of Darlie was not my sister. Like it was as far from Darlie as I can even put into words. It would be the equivalent of somebody that you love and trust and believe with your heart 100% is being tore down and made to look like this evil villain, which is exactly what they

needed to do in order to get the conviction that they wanted. And they did a really good job at that. I mean, Greg Davis was a mastermind. He definitely laid it out really thick about all of the negativity that he could associate with Darlie. And I think that there was some stuff leaked purposely from the police department. We did see a fax that was sent over to the Dallas Morning News that came directly from the police phone number, fax phone number that they had. So there was stuff that was being leaked in a very purposeful way to make Darlie look

and sound like she was this evil person. What they created to tell about Darlie was created based on complete fabrications and people that didn't know Darlie was created based on complete fabrications and people that didn't know Darlie. Greg Davis never spoke with anybody that knew Darlie on a personal level outside of maybe Vasha Joval, which was one of her very good friends, one of Darren's co-workers. I want to say something because you bring up a good point and even the direction you're going here and I think I said this to you on the phone a little bit but we have to all remember and I'm

talking to the audience here. You're not in, and I think I said this to you on the phone a little bit, but we have to all remember I'm talking to the audience here. You're you're not in prison for killing your children. You are a sister defending her sister someone that you grew up with someone that you love dearly and I can respect that and I think most people can relate to that and would probably do the same thing but you do seem like a rational person or I wouldn't have you want I kind of wanted to speak to you too and But you do seem like a rational person or I wouldn't have you on I kind of wanted to speak to you, too And before we're gonna get into all the things just so all you guys know Danelle sent me a 28 page She said this is some light reading and this is basically their entire defense or a lot of their arguments for but I don't Who who wrote this this wasn't you? This is somebody else, correct?

Which one are you referring to there was was, I sent you two documents. The Points of Innocence, which kind of broke it down. That was created by myself and several of my friends that we just kind of bounced things off of each other. Anna Sullivan and a few of my other friends, Diana and Kathy Ramsey. They helped contribute all of this really important information, kind of organized it really well and laid it out. And I added in what I felt, you know, from my perspective really needed to be added in there, like the personal things. But that is not a comprehensive overview of everything. There's a lot more that we could probably elaborate on.

It's a good start though, because I read it. And I think it allowed me so I only bring this up because I wrote notes to a lot of what you said. I researched it, I had my researchers research it, and I wanted to make sure I had some information to talk about with you, because you were talking about some things that we didn't maybe address on the show. And the reason I was saying, as far as you defending your sisters,

I think we can at least start from this point. If we can start from this point, we can go any direction with this conversation. But I just want to make sure that we're all being honest with each other. And the reality is, Stephanie and I do not know what happened inside that house because we weren't, we're not there.

Do you agree that you also were not there? And so there is a chance. You could be wrong. As much as you love Darlie, you could be wrong. So that, that really could, would fall in probability versus plausibility. Anything is possible under the sun. Like if I have two hands, then this could have been done by me. It doesn't make sense the way the state laid it out for Darlie to have completed

these tasks in the way that she completed these tasks. It doesn't match their theory at all. None of the evidence does. And- Well, let's talk about it then. Let's get into it. Wherever you wanna start, there's a lot here. I could ask you specific questions,

but I don't want this to come off as an interview or an interrogation. If there's certain things that you wanna talk about, you talked about some of it on the phone, I'm gonna give you the floor, and I'm not really gonna interrupt. Stephanie is kinda letting me drive this conversation because she was basically telling me the information,

so we felt it would be good for now you to tell me the information the same way she would. And I think that's the fairest shake we can give you. I think that's fair. Let me just start out by saying I have nothing written to read from. I don't have a script devised Neither do I these are my notes. These are my notes that I typed up

Okay So if I come through some information that you feel is questionable or if you had questions about it or Stephanie if you have questions About it, please interrupt me so that I can clarify as best I can Absolutely. Okay, of course. So they start out this whole So they start out this whole debacle with creating a persona of a person that is this greedy, evil person that disliked being a mother and was inconvenienced by the existence of her children and didn't want anything to do with her children. But it was quite the opposite. Darlie lived, breathed, ate, functioned in every capacity for her children and was absolutely the best mother that I had ever met and probably still to this point remains one of the top mother

figures in my life. She included her children in everything she did. She kind of worked her whole day around her children. If she was somebody that didn't want to spend time with her children, she would have sent them off to daycare the minute summer was called. You know, that they would have been enrolled in a daycare and Darlie would have been doing whatever it is that they thought Darlie would have been doing. But instead, Darlie stayed home with the boys

and with Drake and provided them with as much entertainment as she could. The day before all this happened, June 5th, 1996, Darren's car was broke down and had been parked at a dealership in their parking lot. The dealership owner had called Darley and was kind of pissy with her about, you know, this car doesn't need to be here. We, I need it off my lot. He was really kind of hateful about it.

And Darley was kind of caught off guard. Well, you know, I can't really do anything about it. I don't know what to tell you. We'll see what we can do. And so the car stayed there at least through another night. That meaning Darren's car was not at the house. Darlie's car was the car that they were using at the time. And he was taking it back and forth to work, which meant Darlie was stuck at home with three kids and couldn't really do the fun things that she wanted to do. It wasn't a big deal. Darlie just wanted Darren to kind of get on it and get his car fixed so that she could take the boys

and do fun things. Any mother would understand that. So that conversation happened. Darren and Dana come home from work. Dana had not been staying there at her house. A couple months prior, she was staying with Darlie, but Dana, my other sister, and her boyfriend, fiance, had gotten an apartment,

and Dana was staying at her apartment every night. There's- Okay, so she wasn't staying, because that was a question we had. She was not there the night before so she wasn't staying? No. Because that was a question we had. She was not there the night before. She was not staying there overnight. She would come home with Darren because she didn't have a vehicle at the time.

So Darren would bring her home and they would eat dinner or whatever and then Darren or Darlie would drive her back to her house or her fiance would swing by and pick her up. Was Dana also a half-sister? Yes. her house or her fiance would swing by and pick her up. Was Dana also a half sister? Yes, Dana and I share both mother and father. So she's Starley's half sister. But we were trying to do the family tree. Yeah. On the episode.

You heard we were struggling with that one. It is a little spider web. But you know, family dynamics are never simple. Right. Exactly. And so many of you have D names. Yes. Yes.

That's that also has not been great for the storytelling. I know. We catch a many of you have D names. Yes. Yes. That also has not been great for the storytelling. No, I know. We catch a lot of flack for that, but you got to remember that was so long ago when people were being named D names. I don't think it potentially started as everybody's going to have Ds, but when my mom married and started having children, she realized there's a pattern here. So it just kind of kept going. Yeah. What's wrong with it? I actually was named after my dad's uncle who died from hemophilia. So it was a meaningful name. It wasn't just a D name. It was a meaningful name. Dana's name just kind of came out of nowhere. It

was just a name they liked. So it just kind of lined up that way. Darren and his siblings had D names too. And then Darren's brother married a woman. Also, ironically, not related. He wasn't seeking out a Dana, but Dion did marry a Dana. And Serelda and Lenny, who are Darren's parents, had a Darren and a Dion and then an Arenda. So it wasn't all D names. It just, I mean, it sounds crazy, but it is what it is. It just, that's just how the cards fell. I listen, I don't mind D names.

I mean, add me to the list. It made putting it all together though difficult cause everyone was a D. Very tricky. Yeah, especially with two Dana's being involved. That does make it a little, a little sticky. Yes, but I'm glad you brought that up though. Cause we were, we didn't know about that., a little sticky. Yes. But I'm glad you brought that up though, because we didn't know about that. Dana, your sister, she and her fiance just got an apartment.

So now she's kind of hanging out with Darlie during the day, maybe to help her with the kids. She worked for Darren. So that was her source of income. So she was at the shop. So then she would come home with him for dinner. And then he would bring her home at night. Either Darren would drive her home, Darlie would drive her home, or Dana's fiance would

swing by and pick her up. It just kind of, you know, however they could line it up. I'm pretty sure, I can't remember 100%, but I think that Dana's fiance worked like an evening shift. So if he got off in time, he'd swing by and pick her up, or Darren or Darlie would drive her home. It wasn't. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. And also I want to mention that the $5,000 loan that was denied that was mentioned during

the trial, they even pulled a banker to come speak about it. That was not for a vacation. Their vacations were paid for. Their plane tickets were paid for. We actually used their plane tickets that were already bought for the boys to fly in my mom's sister and her family. So those tickets were already paid for. It wasn't a loan to pay for a vacation, like it said. And it did say that on the loan paperwork, but that's because they don't typically give you a loan to buy your sister a car. And the goal was to get Dana her own vehicle so that she didn't have to rely on Darlie and Darren to drive back and forth to work. So it benefited Darlie and Darren and it would have benefited Dana. It was $5,000. She could have paid that or he could have taken it directly out of her paycheck. It

was kind of an easy option. The next week, my mom went and got a loan and Dana ended up having a vehicle after that fact. So the $5,000 was to buy Dana a car. Correct. Correct. But they didn't, Darren already had line of credit established and opened. And he wrote down on the loan option that it was for vacation. And I don't know really exactly why he used that for the loan option, but that's what he used, thinking that they would probably approve that faster than they would approve buying somebody else a vehicle.

Since then, you don't have possession of the vehicle. It probably would have been denied anyways. No, no, it makes sense. So, yeah. I mean, listen, what we're talking a lot about right now is possible motive or the defense of the motive, right? And for me, always as an investigator, yeah, I'm always concerned with the why. You want to know the why, especially when you're

trying to tell a story at trial. I think it's more important for the prosecutors than it is for the investigators. Yeah, we want to try to understand it, but really we should be focusing on the evidence itself. And if Darlene did this, right, to me there is no rational motive. There is no explanation. There, right, there wouldn't be.

What could you, how could you rationalize the irrational? So I would like to focus, if you're cool with it, on there's a lot of points in here that you guys made. Like you said, we can't go over all of it. I'm not going to hold you to everything. Like you said, you don't have any notes in front of you, but there were a couple of things we discussed on the phone that were interesting, and I wanted to make sure

we talked about them here. And they're more about the evidence, because at the end of the day, it comes down to the evidence. And you said already, the evidence doesn't align. So I can kind of cue you up to some of the things you said, and then you can elaborate on it. I don't want you to, and if you need a second to look up notes or whatever, we have no issue with that.

But I'll throw it at you. Three points that I have that I really want to make sure we cover. And if there's something else that jargs your memory and you're like, oh, I want to talk about this piece of evidence as well, I'm open to it. I probably have notes on it. So you cool with that?

Yes, sounds good. Okay, so the first thing I want to talk about, which is a big complaint of contention from me is Darley's wounds compared to Damon and Devin because you have here and I'm just gonna read I basically wrote down exactly what you guys said and You can elaborate on it. But what I have here is Many people like to claim the wounds were different from the boys. However, dr Dilwan definitely calls them stab wounds, the same verbiage he uses

when referring to Damon's wounds. Is that correct? They were stab wounds. It's really hard to express to people exactly how dangerous her wounds were because she survived. And if she had not survived, this would be a deer and root-tear trial. And we would probably be mourning that he was executed by the state of Texas because that's where this would have ended up. Her wounds were the definition of a deep wound in her neck. They consider it, and just for reference, back, back story so everybody understands, I'm a registered nurse and I have really dug into all of the medical side of it. I've dug into the entire case because I'm not going to

put my name behind something that I can't verify and I have probably been more skeptical than anybody on this entire earth in regards to this case. It's my life. So with Darlie's, they very specifically say that the incision on her neck or the stab wound is what it's called in all of the medical records. That was actually through the platysmus muscle, which is a very thin muscle that goes across your neck, kind of helps with the control of your neck. It covers a lot of very important vital organs that or vital structures that without we would die or have no function. It did actually dissect through that platysmus muscle. That is the definition of a deep wound. If the platysmus muscle is breached, it makes it a deep wound to the neck. It was breached, they sewed it back together. It wasn't just nicked. They had to sew

it back together. That's significant in itself. Also significant is the fact that there was a defect noted to the carotid sheath. So that carotid sheath is about two millimeters thick, and that's what covers your jugular vein, your carotid artery, some bundles of nerves. And that was actually it had a defect in it per those surgeons. And really those are the only people that saw her wounds prior to them being patched back up. That in itself is also very significant.

Had Darlie had not been wearing that necklace, it's very likely that it would have gone that additional two millimeters and she would have bled to death before the 911 call was over. That was of the neck and it was also done in a way that she would have had to have used her less dominant hand to cut her neck. Let's see, she's right-handed, so right-handed, she would have had to stab her neck and pulled down and then stabbed or continued that same incision slash slash, whatever we want to call it, down and then stabbed herself

right in the, right here in the neck, right, the chest wall. So that didn't, this did not puncture a lung, just by luck, I suppose. And then the one on her arm was on her right arm, so she's right-handed. So then she switches the knife and stabs herself in the top of the arm. It just doesn't really make a lot of sense. This one here goes to the bone and they were able to feel the bone at the end. I mean, that's not super deep, but it was stopped by a bone. So it couldn't have gone deeper because it did hit that bone. So the wounds that Darlie received

were definitely stab wounds. They were inflicted by a knife. They definitely line up with the same murder weapon that was used on the boys. The only difference is the fact that you have a 30 or 40 pound boy versus 130 pound woman. And it is my belief that Devin was probably asleep when he was attacked. I think that he was stepped on. His hand had some bruising on it and his ear had some bruising on it. So potentially could have been kicked or stepped on and that's what created this storm that unfolded.

The fact that Devin was awoken with these wounds or he was sleeping when he was attacked, and I do feel like Damon was the same way. His wounds were on his back and he was most likely sleeping when he woke up. Neither of them really had defensive wounds other than Devin did have some nicks to the back of his arm. He also had kind of a blunt, I don't remember exactly what they call it, there's like a puncture wound to the back of his thigh. And that is never really explained by anybody. We don't know where it came from or how it got there. Doesn't look like it's from a double-edged instrument. It looks more like maybe a screwdriver or something

of that nature, which could be important. Yeah, so I have a lot to say about this. And Stephanie, I hope you'll allow me to kind of go into it all. And we could spend an hour just talking about this. Because to me, this is a big, this is a critical part of this case. Let me first say how I'm coming to this this is a big this is a critical part of this case. Let me first

say what how I'm coming to this conclusion for a couple reasons not only the story but your friend or researcher someone who works in the investigative field I think the API maybe has been DMing me as well like with you as well I'm not going to say her name I don't know she wants her name out there but fortunately unfortunately however you want to call it she sent me a Google Doc Photos of the boys that are not publicly available. They are all publicly available The ones that I saw I've never seen them online every picture. That's unbelievable Unfortunately, they are all out there and I hope I hope they well the fact that I didn't see him online is a good Thing because that means they're not that's not at the top of the page

But the photos that I saw were them after the fact, cleaned up a little bit, you can clearly see the wounds. Once I got the doc, she apologized even after, because I wasn't expecting to open it and find that, it was about two o'clock in the morning, and it was an unsuspected surprise. But that being said, once I see it, I gotta see it, and I gotta look through it,

and you gotta put emotions aside and just kinda go through it, and I did. So there's a couple things things I want to mention first. And this was from the trial transcripts and affidavits and things that I was able to find. And I just want to mention for our listeners of viewers, I'm not debating you on this. Dr. Dilwan did say at testified at trial,

he referred to the cut as a slash. He did in trial. He referred to it as a slash. He went on to testify that the wounds were superficial, meaning the stab quote did not penetrate any of the deeper structures. Now you're a nurse. I'm not disputing what you can get back at me on that. Just let me go through this and then just hit me with it. So that was that, but that's not even really what I'm focused on. The things that I'm focused on is not the significance of the wounds themselves.

Okay. We, I think a lot of this is significance of the wounds themselves. Okay. We, I think a lot of this is interpretation of the wounds and we can get lost in the weeds on that. To me, what's really important is when I looked at those photos and I looked at the intent behind those stab wounds, behind those puncture marks on those two little boys and compare them to Darley's, they are different. They are very different. One is direct multiple times, direct in the back chest. There's no doubt as a nurse, you

know what that person was intending to do. And yet with Darley's wounds, let's even say for the sake of this conversation that I concede they are stab wounds, right? Let's just call them stab wounds. They are still different and they are not going into the heart. They are not going into the back. They are not going into the chest. They could have plunged that knife directly into her. She was sleeping.

She wasn't moving and yet they're different. And then the final thing that I wanna say, because you put it on here as well, you talked about the different hands being used, the different, you know, the dominant arms being used, different with the boys, different with Darlie. Here's my issue with that. First and foremost, I think it's not unreasonable

to assume that if Darlie did this and she cut herself, she may have used her non-dominant hand and then switched to create the impression that it was someone else. I think that's not even a detective's perspective, that's just common sense. Someone trying to throw off investigators could do something different. But here's the bigger issue. If the wounds are not consistent, meaning the wounds for Damon and Devin versus Darley, the bigger issue

for me is that would indicate that there were two killers. One person was stabbing Darley, one person was stabbing Damon and Devon, but per your sister's own words There was only one attacker Which creates a major issue because if we're to believe what you're saying that the wounds are different from different dominant arms Then that would have to mean two different people two different attackers carrying out these offenses And yet Darley said right out that it was only one man that she saw. So I will say that Darlie has never said that it is absolute fact and that she knows for certain that there was only one intruder. She says she sees one leaving.

She also doesn't say that she was, she's not claiming that she was in a dead sleep and was awoken by this. She comes to. And we think that it's more of a gaining consciousness versus waking up from a sleep. I definitely don't think that she slept through a full force struggle with an intruder. And based on her injuries,

there's definitely a struggle going on. Can we pause there for a second? Yeah. Cause I watched the last offense. I watched the whole thing because you guys were recommending or somebody was, and I watched Darlie's own words and I wrote it down and she said that she woke up to her son Damon saying, mama, mama,

that's what woke her up. Let me ask you a question as a nurse, any injuries that she sustained, the arm, the bruising, the slash, how do you not wake up from one of those injuries, but you wake up from your little boy tapping you saying mama mama? Again, I think it was a coming to more of a regaining consciousness. I don't think that it was waking up, but he was already walking away according to her.

Yes, absolutely. So the attack already happened. Exactly. We know that. So she was attacked, didn't wake up, but then woke up from her son. She has no memory of a struggle with the intruder. She has no memory of that. Can you at least acknowledge how that's a struggle for me?

Well, sure, I get it. But you guys both say yourself in some of your earlier podcasts that your brain protects you from certain things. And I have, unfortunately, because of this case, I have been a true crime researcher since it really all kind of unfolded. And I can tell you that it is not uncommon for somebody that is attacked to, one, not feel those attacks, not know that they were just cut,

and two, be able to lose certain bits of that memory. You can be attacked and have no idea that you were ever stabbed, and follow through with the rest of what you were trying to do or what you think is most important at that exact moment, and you don't even know that you've been stabbed or hurt. That does happen, and that is very plausible. I hear you and we don't have to keep going back and forth on it. I think it's one of those things where

people are gonna have to decide. The problem for me is she woke up. She didn't wake up from any of the injuries that were she sustained but she woke up from a light padding from her son which to me is contradictory of that of that methodology that you're presenting. If she didn't wake up for the cuts, why did she wake up for the kid? Again, we don't know that she, we don't know the order of the events. We don't know that she wasn't actually physically awake. She just hasn't, she doesn't have memory of it. So it's very much that, you know,

that blank area, we can't fill in the details because we don't know. And if Darlie was really trying to lay out this fabricated story, don't you think she would know every single detail to create a very plausible explanation for all this stuff instead of all these unknowns? If you're asking my honest opinion, and Stephanie, I want you to weigh in here because I feel like it, you know, whatever, but I feel like in my professional experience when offenders learn about the evidence that detectives have after the fact, they change their stories to fit that. They try to give as little as possible at first

and then they will add on to that as time progresses when they start to realize the direction law enforcement is going. That's my own anecdotal experience. So I feel like in the beginning, offenders always start with as minimal amount of information as possible because the less you say, the less that can be cross referenced with evidence. And that's just more a vague understanding of it, not specifically in any case. So Stephanie, anything you want to add in there? Because I know, listen, you were telling me this story, you know more about this case than I do. This is just what I had looked into. I know that there's some speculation,

I don't know out there, you know, of supporters. And I don't know if you feel this way or how your camp feels, but is there any speculation or belief that Darlie was drugged under the influence of something that evening? And that's why she was maybe slow to wake up. Like the effects of this thing were wearing off

by the time her son kind of nudged her and that's why she was able to wake up from that and maybe not during the attack. Is there speculation of that from your side? Again, it's possible for sure. Like there's that probable versus possible. I do know that one of our team members that defended Darlie, Lloyd Harold, felt like it was very possible that she was drugged in some form or fashion. Apparently you can make chloroform with stuff you find under your kitchen sink. I wasn't aware of that. But chloroform is

also not found in your bloodstream. You have to have a very specific test for that. And I don't think that that was even thought of. I don't know how long it stays in your system either. Was their blood taken at the hospital? Yes. They did run a full panel and the only thing that came back was she was on the diet pills which showed up as like an amphetamine I believe.

She had a brand? But she had a prescription, Adupex. And then she was prescribed that from the doctor. Yes. She wasn't on any antidepressants, anti-anxiety medicine, nothing. No. Okay. Also, remember that back in 1990, postpartum depression wasn't really talked about. Nobody really knew about it. Like we didn't warn our patients that you may feel down the next six weeks. Like that wasn't something that was publicly talked about at all. And do I think that Darlie had some moments

where she had some maybe mild postpartum depression? Sure, she said she felt down, but there's nothing ever anywhere that supports a postpartum psychosis. And that's not just a flip the switch one day, I have psychosis, turn it back off, I'm fine. That's a very, very specific disease process. And it is a disease that takes over

and you cannot control it. So to think that it could have been mental health related or driven is really not plausible for me at all. There's no history of mental health issues in Darlie's past. She was never diagnosed with anything. If you look at the, I think it's the Edinburgh scale is what we use to determine if you have postpartum depression and she doesn't really fit it except maybe some very mild postpartum depression that was short-lived. And it really did seem to be resolved after she had her cycle and kind of leveled out.

But outside of that, there's nothing to support a mental health break. You don't just break and then unbreak. It's like you stay broken. Once you have that mental break, you stay mentally broken. You ever have one of those days where everything just feels like too much? Maybe you're juggling a million things, your brain won't stop racing, or you're lying awake at night replaying awkward conversations from five years ago. Maybe that's just me. But the truth is life does get heavy,

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K-12 can help them gain the skills they need to reach their full potential while giving you the support you need to get them there. K-12 powered schools are tuition-free, accredited online public schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade. Their state certified teachers make online learning interactive and engaging, allowing your child to learn at their pace from the safety of home. Join the more than three million families who have chosen K-12. Go to k12.com slash podcast today to learn more That's k-12.com slash podcast. I mean, I also do want to point out that having postpartum depression Hundreds of thousands of women have postpartum depression every year. They are not doing this to their kids Even if you did have postpartum depression, it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's nothing right you

Immediately assume that it would make her violent towards her children. I've had postpartum depression. It's very, very common and difficult. When she was depressed in the months before her sons died, what was her main issues? What was the thing or what were the things that were sort of driving that depression? Was it hormonal and she kind of just felt off and she really didn't know why? Or was it a specific trigger like where, you know, relationship issues, money issues, just stress from being a young mother to three young children, the normal pressures that you kind of just feel overwhelmed. I mean, I feel that every day. So I get it. What was the trigger? Adulting is hard. Adulting is hard. It really is.

Please, yeah. And, you know, when you're self-employed and your entire family's income is dependent on that, it is kind of tricky. It's a lot of pressure. Yeah, it is a lot of pressure. And you have children that want to do fun things and you want to do fun things with your children and for your children. And so, of course, there's going to be some stress related just to being

self-employed. But in reality, they were not in dire straits. They were 26 and 27 years old. So they were doing damn good for that age. And Darren did have over $2,500 in his business account that day. And then two days later, he had a deposit that put him at seven grand in his account two days later. So there was money coming in. And in Darlie's note or in her first written statement, which does not happen until two days later, she does mention that they were talking about they were excited because business was picking back up

and they had these trips coming up and they had all of these things they had planned. And you don't make plans for a child you plan to kill. And she had already made these plans. So that really doesn't support it either. I mean, like you said, there is stress associated with just being an adult and paying bills and doing all those things, but none of it ever got to the level where

anybody could have been concerned or knowingly seen any type of depression. She still woke up every day. She still fixed her hair every day. She still wore makeup. She still took care of her kids. She cooked dinner. She all of those things. She still did all hair every day. She still wore makeup. She still took care of her kids. She cooked dinner She all of those things she still did all of the normal things So I want to address two things really quickly and before I do I want to say This is I'm this is not personal towards you. I have a sister. She is seven years younger than me. She's my best friend I could never even if there was every point of evidence saying that she had done something in my head in my heart Knowing her having grown up with her. I would still say Absolutely not and I would defend her until my last breath. I completely understand and I I think you're you're so intelligent

You're so well spoken You clearly know so much about this case and you know something that is I think even more important the dynamics of Darley Darren her family what things were like behind the scenes, which none of us could ever understand as clearly and accurately as you do. To talk about the financial situation, yes, I do believe that Darren had that $2,500. There was more money coming in. But you do have to admit, based on the life that they were living, right, based on the mortgage and the car payments and everything that they had

going out, what they had coming in was not adequate for what they had going out. You know, I can't really agree with you on that only because there wasn't... Darlie's car was paid off so that she didn't have a car payment. She had invested in the cats. She had a mom and a dad cat and they planned on having kittens. They did have a litter. That was a business venture. So that was an investment.

The boat was also an investment. They were planning on doing a business called Champagne Dreams, where they take couples out on like a sunset dinner. You have champagne and some kind of nice dinner, something to eat, maybe a dessert. All of those things were investments. And so there wasn't a huge... and every... let me also just say, Darlie was a bargain shopper. Nothing was ever full price. Everything was always either used or

from the pawn shop or on clearance. And even to this day, she still is a clearance shopper. Her and I will have moments where we do some online shopping for my kids or something, and she always wants to look at the clearance stuff. That's just who she was, because she was raised kind of frugal. We were very like lower middle class. Darren was not new money.

He did have a fairly well-established family. So he was not new money. Darlie was more on the newer money side, but also did so much for everybody. That's kind of what took precedent was making sure everybody else had what they needed before she had what she needed. Kind of, you know, typical mom. So on that note, I think it's interesting. I've never heard about this business playing with the boat and it sounds great, honestly. I think it's a great name, a great idea.

On that note, when we're trying to look around for motive for the people who believe wholeheartedly that Darlie did this and we're trying to figure out what would the motive be, if you've got all of these business ventures coming up, plus Darren runs his own business, Darlie's working for that business, like you said, so many family members did too.

So this business being successful is very important because you're taking care of a lot of people who are close to you, who you care about, and then you wanna start this other business and then the cat breeding business as well, which probably Darlie kind of spearheaded that. When you have all of these business ventures coming up and you want them to be successful, Darlie would not have maybe necessarily been able to be as present of a mother at home

if all of these things are coming up. So once again, that kind of goes back to the motive of three kids, three young kids is a lot. If you want to kind of push yourself, any working parent, much less a working mother, knows when people tell you, oh, you can have it all, you can run your own business and be a great mother. You can't, you just, you can't.

You have to sacrifice somewhere. And maybe there was something in her head at that point, which it was like, I don't want to sacrifice building these businesses and creating more wealth and more opportunity for my family. I have to sort of find a way to lessen the load somewhere. I don't think that they were ever in a situation where you needed to lessen the load by killing two children. I think that they were very much in the same predicament, in the same situation as 90% of their neighborhood.

I think that it was the American dream, and they were just doing what everybody else was doing. I do not think that there is any documentation or anything that supports the fact that she had to kill her kids or not sustain her lifestyle there? There's nothing that supports that it was all very sustainable her lifestyle was very sustainable This is where as investigators you can get caught up because we can sit around a table For three hours and talk about the why yeah, and here's something that the all three of us can agree on Whether it was Darley whether it was someone else outside the house for three hours and talk about the why. And here's something that the all three of us can agree on.

Whether it was Darlie, whether it was someone else outside the house, there's gonna be no rational explanation that any of us can come up with that would justify the killing of two little boys. So although it's important to talk about with this particular case, especially if you're trying to prove innocence,

we really gotta talk about the evidence because the why, we're never gonna be able to justify it. You're gonna give your opinion of your sister, you know her better than us. It's your perception, it's your experiences. We can't dispute that, which is why, just like in any case out there, it's about the evidence, the evidence that's already happened,

the evidence that can't be altered. And yes, it's still open to interpretation, but it's a little bit more binary than the motive, the why. Personally, without going too much into it, I don't think it was financial in nature if she did do it. I think it was more a case of postpartum psychosis. I know you said you don't snap out of it right after. I could debate you on that.

There are cases where that is the case, Lindsay Clancy being one of them, but but i'm not here to Here's the thing though. She She didn't snap back out of it. She had a history of postpartum Depression and even after the fact she had a history of Mental illness it but there were things that she did there were things that she did in the moment when she killed them That shows a rational person checking where he was, text messages, things of that nature. Again, I don't even want to go down that road because there's so much evidence in this case

that we can talk about where we don't have to know the why. Regardless of the why, I just want to know who did it. As of right now, your sister, she's in prison for it. That's what's important. So getting back to the evidence, and I am the evidence guy, that's what I'm focused on. You mentioned the glass. That's been a big point of contention.

And in your Proof of Innocence document, there was some mention of the glass being there potentially being broken by a first responder, a crime scene investigator, someone other than the offender or Darlie, correct? There is some thought that that could be the case. I personally don't think that it was an after the fact thing. I think that it lines up with both Darren and Darlie's account of what happened, that there was glass broken. And then Darlie comes to, she hears it kind of subconsciously.

Darren hears it upstairs kind of subconsciously while they're sleeping. You don't really know what's going on, so you can't really anticipate what's fixing to happen. And then this glass breaks, the intruder flees and leaves past the glass. And then Darlie comes to, Damon's pressing on her shoulder. She says that kind of makes her more anxious. She realizes something's going

on. She sees this man fleeing through the house. She gets up to follow him, sees that there's a knife on the floor, turns the light on, picks up the knife, realizes that she's bleeding herself, turns around, sees that there is blood, there's a blood trail from her and there's blood by Devon and she sees that Damon has some blood on him and then it just kind of all unfolds from there. The glass is super important because it was used

to explain how she staged a scene. And in order for us to believe that she staged the scene, then she threw that glass where there is absolutely no cast off from her arm. Like throwing that glass would have most likely left some high velocity cast off or much better cast off than what is seen. That low drops of blood in the kitchen would have definitely. The low velocity blood spatter. There wouldn't necessarily be a cast off. It would depend on how she threw it.

If she used like two hands and it was low to the ground, you wouldn't have that striking motion like you'd have with a knife. But you know, we, yes, potentially. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. There is, there is a way to create that, recreate that where there wouldn't be a cast off, but I'm rolling with you. I will say this before you continue. I'm glad we're on the same page that the glass happened before first responders got there because I saw that.

I watched Darley. I watched Darren's statements in the last offense. They both can, they both say right out that the glass broke when the offender was there, not first responders. So you can continue, but we're on the same page. Yes. So that I think the first responder thing is more leaning towards the pictures of that wine rack. There looks like there's a glass missing on the wine rack. And so some people speculate that maybe there was an additional glass that was broken on accident and maybe that glass that was collected and found on the ground,

maybe it came from that second piece of glass that was broken. I think that that is kind of neither here nor there. I think that what really is important about the glass is that James Cron himself says that there is no blood on this glass, yet the glass is on top of her bloody footprints. I don't know about you guys, but I researched that pretty heavily. And it takes about 60 minutes for a good solid blood drop to completely dry. And this piece of glass was potentially thrown and landed right on top of this wet blood. There would be blood on this glass

if she had staged the scene and thrown the glass. Now, Darlie's whole thing is that she hears that glass break, she gets up, she follows it. And if you look on her wine rack, there is like a little section where there's a couple little sherry glasses and there's a little decanter that has ice in it like an ice bucket. There was also a wine glass there and that wine glass is what was broken.

So it didn't come from the top rack where it has the little hooks that holds it on. It came from that set up tray that had the two sherry glasses, wine glass, the ice bucket, the prawns to pick up your ice with. And there was also blood that was on top of that ice bucket. So it could have fallen over, hitting that ice bucket, that piece of glass breaks, and then it rolls off onto the ground. So there was not this exaggerated huge amount of glass

all over the floor at that point. James Cron comes in, he does a walkthrough. He grabs that wine rack and shakes it to see how sturdy it was. It was cast iron or, you know, it wasn't like super lightweight, but it was not a heavy piece of furniture. He was able to shake it himself,

which when you're shaking that, it's very plausible that glass could have fallen off at that point. If you look at the glass and you expect for there to be blood there and there's not blood on that glass, then that absolutely leads you to believe that that glass was kicked there by somebody that was walking through the scene after the blood was dry already, which would have been at least an hour after the crime took place, or after Darlie stopped actively bleeding in the house?

We have different perspectives on this, but we're kind of talking about the same evidence and this comes down to just perspectives and opinions, right? For me, just from where I'm sitting, I hear from Darlie that as she's coming to, the man is walking away and then she hears the glass break and she's following after him. And so I would assume that she's walking through the glass and she's bleeding at that point. She's already been injured. So I would expect to find blood on top of the glass. And yet no glass in the house do you find blood on top of the glass, which is I think

why a lot of people, including myself, believe that she cut herself. And then to wake Darren up, she smashed the glass to get his attention, which would align with him coming downstairs and her being right there. I know you're not gonna agree with me, I'm just telling you where I'm coming from. Yeah, and I've heard that before, but in all reality, there is no blood on the glass,

even the glass that's on the footprint. And so you can argue it either way. How do you explain the no blood on the glass, even the glass that's on the footprint. And so you can argue it either way. I don't think... How do you explain the no blood on top of the glass though? Like no blood on glass anywhere? It's my opinion that that when that cup fell and hit that wine bucket shattered, most of that glass stayed on top of that top of that wine rack, you know, just right on top there.

And then kind of pieces roll off and move off as the scene develops and as Darley's in and out of the kitchen. But the wine rack itself was kind of in the walkway. If he bumps it, it falls and it breaks. When you say he, you talk about the offender or cron? No, an intruder. The intruder. Okay.

Yeah. So if an intruder bumps into this, which me also add there was a green rug between the kitchen and the Roman room Which is the room where the assault took place? There was a rug there and it is a Known thing at Darley's house that that rug kind of got in the way and people would trip over it routinely It was there because there was a stain kind of under the carpet and it kind of helped to buffer people from you know Dirty feet onto white carpet. There was also a clear runner there that kind of under the carpet and it kind of helped to buffer people from you know dirty feet onto white carpet there was also a clear runner there that kind of protected the carpet from all the in-and-out traffic and all that white carpet was just really a hard hard thing to keep clean. Not the best thing you want to do.

Stephanie I have more pieces of evidence I want to talk about anything you want to add to the glass conversation? No I kind of want to add to the glass conversation? No, I kind of want to talk about the fingerprint. Perfect. That was literally my next thing. Do you want to bring it up or do you want me to bring up what they said first? Yeah, you do that. Okay. So fingerprint, again, I wrote this down.

It's kind of a synopsis of what you wrote. There's 28 pages. I wrote the general idea and you can elaborate, but this is, and then I won't go into my point, Stephanie. I'll let you go first. And then Danelle, if you want to follow up, you can go but this is and then I won't go into my point Stephanie I'll let you go first and then Donnell if you want to follow up you can go and then I'll go but um, the unidentified bloody Fingerprint found on the coffee table which to be completely transparent with our audience We did talk a little bit about this on the phone Donnell because it just happens

But I'm glad we did because it really had me look into it and so I'll get to my stuff But it you wrote here or someone wrote here, forensic analysis conclusively proved it does not match Darlie or either of her sons. Three separate forensic experts, including one from the FBI, all agreed that it was not from anyone from the crime scene, which is what you also said to me on the phone.

That's what I have here for her, Stephanie, but take it away. Was that a full print or was it a partial print? No, it is a partial print. On the coffee table, there's also a print on the door leaving the garage, or leaving the laundry room into the garage. So there was two fingerprints in blood

that were unidentified. They are enough to compare. Kron said he needed like seven or eight points to compare them and these prints had at least 10 to 12 points each print. He was able to say that they were not Darlies at the trial and he said that they must have been the boys How or he said Devon it specifically is what he said James Cron was a fingerprint expert I will give him that that's pretty much all he was an expert at but he was a fingerprint expert Well in fairness because I saw that I just wanted I wasn't gonna bring this up But he did work 21,000 crime scenes for a thousand of them being death investigations We got to give him a little bit more than just a fingerprint expert.

I don't know that we do, though. I don't know that we do because, let me just say this, he's counting it as two and a half cases every single day his entire career is what it kind of boils down to. Because he consulted on a lot of them. He wasn't physically there working on them. But he was a civilian employee from the Dallas Sheriff's Department. Do you want me to go over his, um, for the audience real quick? I can, I have it here because I pulled it up because listen, I call out bad cop work all the time. It's kind of my thing.

So I don't mind doing it because they give the good guys bad names. So let me just run down what I have for him. Cause I was like, Hey, if she's saying something that's valid here, I'll call it out. I don't give a s***. So this is what I have. He was a consultant in the field of crime scene search, fingerprints and physical evidence. He was a certified latent print examiner, as you said, and a certified senior crime scene analyst. He started as a civilian in law enforcement in 1958.

He later became a sheriff's deputy who worked in the identification bureau. He then became a lieutenant devoting the time, uh, his time to crime scene analysis. He worked over 21,000 crime scenes, more than 4,000 being death investigations. He has over 150 awards throughout his career and eventually became a professor as well. What do you go? You go first, uh, Danelle as far as just because that sounds pretty good to me. It does. It does. It sounds like he is this this great away. Yeah, but when you write your own resume

You typically do toot your own horn. Anyway, you can't I feel attacked right now. I pump my we all pump Our resume a little bit. Come on. He does you want but this could be confirmed This can be confirmed now you could you can confirm a lot of this. What you can confirm and what is being said are, don't always mean the same thing. Yes, he did have a certificate as a crime scene analyst, but that was based on a seminar he paid to go to. That was based on something that he purchased. He purchased this course. He attended this, whatever it was, seminar,

and then he got a certificate at the end of it. Wouldn't you say that shows initiative? Now they pay for all your certifications. Well, and they may have paid for his, but that does not mean that he was well-versed in crime scene analysis. What would you consider well-versed? I would say that somebody that is actively involved in murder investigations,

somebody that has seen it top to bottom, front to back, and I don't think that's where he was. He was the fingerprinter. He was the guy that took your fingerprints when you came in and out of jail. So any person or any case that he took a fingerprint on, he counted as part of his resume. So everybody that was booked in the sheriff's department, he counted as part of his repertoire and it was really misleading. And if you get a chance, yeah, him and Doug Mulder were kind of buddies.

And if you get a chance to read or listen to his cross-examination of Cron, I think it's pretty well worded. He was the keeper of the Prince. He was a consultant because he retired and him and neighbors had kind of this working relationship where he came and did some fingerprint classes for the Rollett Police Department. I think that they just really thought he was more than what he really truly was. I think that he misrepresented himself as this well-versed, really good crime scene investigator. And basically he had some on-the-job training for taking photographs at a crime scene. and he was well certified in fingerprint

identification. And I'm sure he was a wonderful man. I'm sure he was a wonderful dad. I'm sure he was a wonderful everything. But in my story and my version of James Cron, he walked into a crime scene and can determine within 20 minutes that this was a murder based on evidence that he hadn't even completely collected yet. There was still evidence that was not even found when he made that assumption. And then he plants that seed for the rest of the Rollett police department to hear, and they start festering over this. And without anybody even knowing it, they develop tunnel vision and they're thinking it's only, you know, James Cron, he's done all these cases, he knows

what he's talking about, he's seen this stuff before, Susan Smith had just been kind of unloaded on the public a year prior. So of course there's that seed is planted and then it just kind of all rolls downhill from there. And I do truly believe 100% without a doubt that him saying that there's no intruder here was the very beginning of Darley's demise, the absolute first inclination that it was not truly an attack. So is it your opinion that he came in and he just was not well versed in these crime scenes and he made a mistake? Or was he being malicious by basically pointing the finger?

Yeah, I don't think anybody did anything malicious to Darley. I don't think that anybody in their right mind could potentially come to that conclusion that, you know, 20 people, you know, got together and decided, let's frame. Oh, trust me. Trust me. They, they do. It's not realistic. And I will tell you this. People do what there? She's saying that I think it's unreasonable to assume that 20 different people got together to corroborate on this one frame job against this person.

And I'm like, oh. And you're saying they do that? People out in the world definitely do. They'll say the prosecutors, the detectives. Oh, you mean people will say that they do like that, yes. But that's very unlikely. There was a group of 30 people. Yes, yes.

But it's very unlikely. So we're on the same page, Danelle. I want to say here, because you wrote that in your proof of innocence, so I wanted to look into it a little bit. You're probably more versed in it on a me. This is just a side note for everybody listening. I put a little thing in here. The arrest warrant says that quote, although there were quantities of blood throughout the room and around the boys,

there was no appreciable blood on the couch where Darley's head, neck and shoulders were located at the time that she says she was stabbed by her assailant. This warrant was actually written by Detective Patterson, although he does admit he first spoke to Detective Cron before doing it. So I can cede that point to you, but what I took away from this and why I put this down here is this is another point of contention where you have blood everywhere and the victim Darley is telling you that although she may not remember it right? Let's say she doesn't remember it

There's no Darley has said it everybody has said it. She was attacked on the couch We all agree on that and yet she's got these really deep stab wounds as you're as you're conveying them to us There's no blood on the couch or very little blood considering it almost cut her slit her throat And so I'm not saying I agree or D. Okay. Well, it's slit her throat and yet very little blood on the couch So there was part of this. It wasn't just cron It was also other detectives putting their detectives hat on saying one plus one is an equal equaling to here We have the boys there's a pool of blood around where they were attacked. This woman is saying that she was attacked on this couch right here.

She was stabbed in the throat, in the chest, arms, all these different injuries and yet very little blood where she said the attack occurred. So you can weigh in on that, but I just wanted to put it out there that it wasn't just Cron going around doing all of this himself. Like you've already admitted, which I appreciate you being honest about it, there was multiple people there that maybe developed this opinion very quickly, not just Kron. I think Kron was the first person that planted the seed though.

I think he openly and, and very proudly says that it only took him 20 minutes to determine that there was no intruder. I don't know that any good detective would brag about that in our current day and age. I'll give you that. If that's what happened, I haven't seen anything that says he was at the scene saying that, but if there's video or audio out there where he's bragging about solving this case in 20 minutes, I give you that. I give you that.

Whether it's true or not, it doesn't need to be said. He says it himself. He says it in several interviews. He says himself that 20, 30 minutes. He says it on the stand whenever he's talking to both sides. No, Derek's saying it doesn't need to be said by him, not you. Yeah, it doesn't need to be said by him. Exactly. It's not a point to brag about. Whether it's true or not, it doesn't need to be said. Just do your job. I think maybe, and I hate trying to put myself in people's heads. They have their own opinions and their own agendas, but I think he was trying to maybe convey it as this was such an obvious case of what I ended up coming to that there was no doubt within 20 minutes I knew what happened here. It wasn't even something that

I had to think about. It was just the evidence didn't align. Stephanie, I knew what happened here. It wasn't even something that I had to think about. The evidence didn't align. Stephanie, I feel like we're just like, we're just cutting you out here, but anything you wanna add on that? No, I just wanna go back to the fingerprint. Yes, I apologize. We have so much about the fingerprints, go ahead.

According to Darlie's camp, the forensic analysis conclusively proved that that fingerprint, the bloody fingerprint on the coffee table, did not match Darlie or either of her sons. And then three separate forensic experts, including one from the FBI, all agreed that it was not from anyone from the crime scene, which then of course would mean it's from somebody outside of the house, which then of course you'd be like, well this is not one of those DNA things where somebody's hair or skin cells just ended up in the house. This is a bloody

fingerprint. This person had to be involved with what happened to these two children. Now that's, you know, according to some testimony and things, we've got Richard Jantz, who's a professor of anthropology, not a fingerprint expert. He was hired by the defense, and he concluded the print had a higher probability of being from an adult. And then you've got Robert Lone's, who was hired by ABC to look at the fingerprints.

His opinion was that Darley was not the owner of the coffee table fingerprint. He didn't mention either of the children. We've got Pat Wortham, who is a latent print examiner hired by the prosecution to refute the defense. He had analyzed photographs of the fingerprints and he said that Richard Jantz's report, he was for the defense,

presents a misleading and unreliable conclusion and that the defense had misrepresented Jantz's report in the writ. For example, the defense said Jantz concluded the latent fingerprint belonged to an adult, not a child. Jantz's report in the writ. For example, the defense said Jantz concluded the latent fingerprint belonged to an adult, not a child. Jantz never said that. He also found that Jantz didn't use points of identification to make his determination, which makes sense because Richard Jantz is a professor of anthropology, not a fingerprint expert. And then Warthram compared

Darley's fingerprints and many other people's prints, for example, Darren, first responders, crime scene people, et cetera. And he was able to exclude everyone except Darley. He said she could be neither excluded nor identified. And Ortham is a latent print examiner. Danielle, is it Wertheim or Wertheim? I want to make sure I was looking it up. I was looking into him. I really don't know. That was post trial. So all of that was in her relief efforts. It's all a muted point now because the Dallas County District Attorney, the Conviction Integrity Unit and the Innocence Project of New York has exclusively 100% determined that this is not Darley's fingerprint. Just the verbiage alone, it cannot be matched or excluded

should be enough for people to question that. If I can exclude you from this fingerprint, then it clearly, there's not enough points there to make it match. If I can match you to this print, then it's a match. There's not an in-between. There is no gray. There is either, it is either, it could be a match

or it is not a match So can I can I weigh in on that because I am a lay in print not an expert, but I am certified in it so that's why I I thought this was a partial because the way you would come to that determination is Essentially if you have certain points certain markers But not enough and based on the markers you do have you can't rule someone out because there are certain matches there But you don't have enough data to say conclusively whether it's them or rule them out. That's where you would make that determination So that's where I'm coming from on that. So let's say they took ten people like they took Darren and the nine CSI people Police whatever who are in there and they have this partial fingerprint and there's X amount of points.

And based on the points that are there, they can rule all these other people out because though their fingerprints don't have those specific points, but they wouldn't be able to root Darlie out because maybe some of those points matched, whereas some didn't or the part of the fingerprint that was missing wouldn't match because it's missing but some of her points in her fingerprint did match whereas the other 10 people had no points that matched. Did they ever give detailed reasons for why Werther Merced said that he could exclude everybody except Darlie? I think that it was left vague because that's just kind of how they do things. Just enough

to leave presumable guilt. You can't like completely rule it out. You can't completely identify it. Nothing is ever like hard fact in the prosecutor's case because it is all theory. And I think that same thing goes with this fingerprint. James Cron looked at it while they were doing this investigation. The original investigation, if it had been even remotely close to Darley's print, he would have 100% said, this is Darley's fingerprint. But the only fingerprints they did not have were Devon and Damon's, because unfortunately they were not fingerprinted at their autopsy and at that point I don't think they actually had the fingerprints from kindergarten for Devin.

So James Cron kind of left it based on the size of the ridges. He concluded it was a child's fingerprint. Dr. Jans comes in and says based on the measurements from the ridges to the ridge, from ridge to ridge that it couldn't be a child's fingerprint, that it was too big to be a child's fingerprint. So the two other things with the fingerprints that I wanted to point out was they did swab that bloody print and they did an STR and a YSTR test. For anybody who doesn't know what that is, it's a short tandem repeat genetic test where they can go through it and see if it belongs to a male or female.

Both results came back inconclusive, but the belief is because they came back inconclusive, the blood, at least the blood, did not belong to a man. The blood did not. The blood did not. That is Darley's blood. The blood did not. Yeah, that was Darley's blood. So if it is the offender's fingerprint, it's his fingerprint in either her blood or it

would have to be her blood because it's been ruled a either her blood or it would have to be her blood because it's been ruled a not male DNA. So that would mean it was Darlie's blood. The only thing I wanted to point and put a feather in your cap is on the phone I said to you, well did they load it up into APHIS and you said yeah they did. I did find an article, I don't know how true it is, you know the media, but I did find an article from the Altoona Mirror. They are saying that images of the prints were run in APHIS, but there was no match obtained.

And I will give you this, usually if there's not enough points to make a match, they don't put it into APHIS because what's the point? And so that is something that is, I have to concede that point. I don't know why they would do that. They didn't have enough points to make a match. And if they did have enough points to make a match, then they should be able to say conclusively, yes or no, this is Darley's print or Darren's print

or first responders print. So we don't know. That's the answer. We don't know. And I'm not here trying to mislead people. So I think in reality, we're all kind of on the same page. There's certain evidence that would suggest it maybe be from an outside party and there's also

evidence that suggests it could still be from Darley not a male in the house but Darley because they couldn't rule out they couldn't roll out female DNA I mean it was Darley's print it wouldn't mean yeah it's not really much of anything well it's not a print they've ran It's not a print. They've ran it through APHIS. Darley is a convicted offender, according to APHIS. If there was any match at all, it would have been confirmed at that point that that was Darley's fingerprint. But it is not. And the district attorney's office agrees this is not Darley's fingerprint. When was it put in APHIS? What year? I don't have an exact time that it was put in, but it's been since the Innocence Project was involved.

So they took on shortly after we did the last defense. I would say it was 2018-2019-ish. But again, there's a lot of information to keep kind of filed, you know, in certain order. So I don't know exactly what point it was ran. I'll tell you this. I would like to know more about this fingerprint because something's not adding up with me. I would like something's not adding up with me. I'd really like to know more about it because it's not really connecting because again, you usually don't put something into APHIS unless you have a print, but it seems they put an image into print and I can tell you from, from pulling a lot of prints, a photograph of a print is not as good as the actual print.

So it's not something that you want to upload anyways, normally you usually want an actual print. You want to roll the person, you know, ink or on a digital screen. They have a little piece of glass, the computer will scan it. So I'd really just like to be inside the four walls because I'd love to know how good this fingerprint is.

That's really what it boils down to. Everything we're talking about is how good is this print? If they came to me, I'll say this right now publicly, if they came to me and said, Derek, we got 23 points of matching here. We can make a, this is a definitive print that we can clearly see. There's no question about this print and its integrity and we can see

all the ridges. We can see all the markings. This is a great print and yet it still doesn't match Darlie. Well Darlie can't alter her prints. So I would concede the point that that print being in there is a problem. Now did everybody who was in that crime scene get ruled out? They're saying they have. I'm hoping that's the case. There's still some questions. All I would say, and this isn't trying to paint it one way or the other, there is an explanation for this print outside of it not being Darley's where it's still not an intruder. And I know you're not going to agree with that, but that's, that is a reality where we talk about contamination of a crime scene,

multiple people going in there, not logging who's coming and going properly, all of that can lead to contamination. Every crime scene, by the way, Dr. Henry Lee taught me this, every crime scene's contaminated the minute you walk into it. Every crime scene. How you document it, how you report everything will decide what is actually taken into evidence and what isn't, and the integrity of the investigation

can be jeopardized based on that reporting. So that's the only thing I'll say. But I think we all kind of agree that the fingerprint is something that leaves more questions than answers. We have a lot of other things that we've talked about, but the fingerprint is not something we have a definitive answer to at this point. Even though you're saying it's definitely not dollies, I would like to know the integrity of that print before I said something like that.

So the print I sent you a picture of on that 20 points of innocence. I saw it. Yep. That's a picture. It's a picture. It's tough. So our side of the fight for that fingerprint was a little bit upset because we weren't allowed to be present

when they ran it through APHIS. And our side wanted to be there so we could say, yes, we agree with every process you've done. We agree that that's the best angle to use. We agree that that's the best photo. We didn't get that option. So we were a little bit upset that they ran it. You mean in the family.

Right, correct. On Darley's side You wouldn't you wouldn't if it's an ongoing investigation. It was this after the fact This is after the fact because during the trial they said it was Devon's fingerprint That's where we left it at trial We know now and we've argued from the very beginning that Devon and Damon were not fingerprinted They couldn't have known it was Devon's fingerprint. And now we know without a doubt, 100% no question about it. It's not Devon or Damon's fingerprint and 100% not Darlie's fingerprint. Just to reiterate, how do we know 100% it's not Devon or Damon's?

Because the blood doesn't belong to them for sure. Correct. The size alone was too big to have been from the boys. That partial fingerprint was bigger than the boys' whole fingerprint. bigger than the bull the boys whole fingerprint Yeah, man I would love to be I would love to be in that conversation because yeah They do they submit partial prints to APHIS sometimes especially in you know murder cases Sexual assaults that you know if they have a partial print you never know you might get some potential matches But man that print that print definitely leaves a lot of questions. It's fine I mean, I'm okay with it the one thing you know in an investigation is you're not gonna get the answer to every question

That's the that's the reality of the world. We live in I do have some other things I wanted to talk about anything else on this before we move on. I know this is a great conversation So I'd like to keep talking if you guys are on board with that. I got something a few other things Yeah, I want to talk about the sock. Stephanie, you're still in my thunder. Yeah. So the sock, we talked a little bit on the phone about the sock. And you mentioned that the sock, we talked about the sock a lot

in the episode, so we don't got to regurgitate all that. The sock was outside the house. There have been arguments made. I'll read what you wrote first, obviously. Darlie couldn't have planted the sock because she was not wearing her Reebok shoes by the door. She was barefoot. Darlie's feet had no debris consistent with running barefoot outside. Unknown DNA was found on the sock related to the case. So here's my first thoughts on that. We know that the distance to where the sock was, it wasn't that far.

You could physically get back in time. If this was a premeditated event where you knew what you were about to do, you could run out there quickly, throw the sock out there, come back. Now, here's my issue. There's a couple of things. First off, if the sock was taken out by the offender while they're fleeing the area, it was a bloody scene. I think we can all agree on that. There's unknown DNA on there and yet there's no blood from Damon and Devin.

Yes, there is. There is blood from Damon and Devin. Yeah. The only blood on the sock is Devin and Damon's blood. There's two small stains. One was kind of a more diffuse stain, so it may have been wedded or dampened or there was some kind of saliva mixed in with some of that blood. So correct me. I'm wrong here. It's Darley. There's no blood from Darley on the sock.

No blood of Darley's on the sock. Okay, that's, I apologize. There was DNA. Thank you for correcting me. Yeah. There was DNA found on the sock that belonged to Darlie and it was explained to us as epithelial cells as if you would see them in her mouth or the inside of your nose. Yes, it's just skin cells. So if Darlie did this, right, Darlie would have had to have killed the boys first, then

taken the sock out to that location and then come back. She clearly didn't stab herself and then come back if you're in that camp. So she would have had to run out there and do that. And that it's possible, right? It's definitely possible. What is your interpretation of the sock? How did the socket out there? Um, this unknown DNA, you talked about it on the phone with me. We've seen cases with like John Benet where somebody who packaged the, the underwear,

their DNA was on it. Things like that can happen. But what's your interpretation of the sock? Through the Innocence Project, they're doing very specific testing and I don't know answers to what their testing is going to show. And I can't talk a whole lot about DNA on the sock. But what we have known for a very long time, since like, I wanna say it was 2003, 2004, was the first time I had ever heard that there may be unknown male DNA on the sock.

It was sent to us after one of the many trials that, not physical trial, but like an attempt to get further testing. We paid for it out of pocket through the defense team. Um, they came back with some unknown alleles, which are, you know, segments of your DNA and they didn't match what would have been expected to have been seen on that sock. The sock does have Darley's DNA on it.

Um, what we were told would have been saliva or most likely would have been saliva. And then it had Devin and Damon's blood together smeared on that sock. In order for us to believe that this is accurate, the blood evidence that the state presents completely ruins any chance that this could have been planted by Darley. The blood expert, Tom Devil, whom is well respected in the legal world and in the criminal world. He was a retired chief of police for Oklahoma, well-established man, but he got it wrong on our case and there's so much I could go into on his whole testimony and on his whole ethical background. Okay. There's a lot there. So Tom Bevel says in his testimony that he thinks that the blood with Darlie and the boys on the front of her shirt, there was several spots that were of mixed blood.

So they had Darley and Devon's or Darley and Damon's. And that blood was mixed and on her shirt. Originally his statement to our defense team was that those blood spatter, that blood, whatever he called it then, it was mixed before it landed on her shirt and At the trial he comes up with this completely different story Which he is known to do this Tom Bevel is notorious for telling you one thing and then At the trial he says something different and I'm not making making that up. That's not slander. That is definitely searchable. You can look it up and find it.

He is notorious for changing his opinion based on what he wants or what the state wants for the evidence to show. He then says during the trial that those drops were overlapped. So he wants you to believe that these drops, minute, very small drops, overlapped each other in exactly the spot that Devon's blood was or the exact spot that Damon's blood was and that they overlapped on

those pre-existing spots of blood. The relativity of that happening is so minute. I don't even know that you could really put a number on the percentage of that actually being logical or possible in any realm of any universe. It's just not. The spot on the back of her shirt that is just Devon's, it's a tiny little drop. I would have to look at the exact measurement, but it doesn't fit the criteria for cast off at all. You cannot see a tail on it, that you cannot determine if there's directionality

to it at all. It's actually the size of the end of a pen. I think it's less than a millimeter, which would also kind of ruin it from being a low velocity or cast off in any way, shape, or form. It is more consistent with high velocity spatter, which would be from like gunshot wound, or we know now that it is also... High velocity would have a tail. Low velocity wouldn't. Okay, so the drop itself would have had to... it's the size of it. Yeah, it's more streaky. It's like... I hate... the one... the way I would describe it is like a tadpole almost. Yeah, when you have a tail.

There's another way to describe it, but it's... we're a kids show over here. I gotcha. Yeah. You got me. No, there is no tail on this blood drop. That would be low velocity. It is perfectly would be low velocity Okay, so it's so it's too small to really be categorized as cast off though cast off in his definition Of blood drops. He has his own book Tom Bevel I think that he categorizes it as has to be more than two millimeters in size or something along those lines

you have to have directionality and Also, let me point out that there is no pattern with one single drop. You have to have more than one drop in order to create a pattern. And there is no additional drops there. There's one single, one singular drop on the back of her shirt, the size of the end of a pen or the end of a toothpick. And it would be consistent with Darlie's story that she was helping Darren with CPR on Devon. She was not medically trained.

She didn't know what to do. She did take him a towel. That's in both of their statements. She tells at least two medical professionals while she's in route to the ambulance and once she gets to the hospital, she tells two of them that she did try. They tried CPR and she tried to help. And that spot on the back of her shirt would definitely be consistent with Darren blowing into Devon's mouth and that

blood kind of splattering outward and landing on her shirt. It would have to be a 90 degree angle to make that drop perfectly round. And you can't get a 90 degree angle to make that drop perfectly round. And you can't get a 90 degree angle while you're casting off and stabbing a child. She would be parallel to the floor. I would suggest though that you could get that exact position when you're holding wounds together and you're leaning over a child and you're attempting to do CPR and that gush of breath comes right out of his lungs and as that happens.

Aspirates, like blood goes in the air and falls on her back. But wouldn't you expect more than one drop then? I don't, I don't. It's an aspiration. I don't think you necessarily have to have more than one drop because by that time Devin's not actively bleeding anymore. So it's going to be more of like, you know, residual blood that was left kind of on the wounds itself.

Can we go back to the sock for a minute? Yes. Because with the sock, well first off, there was STR and YSTR testing done on that sock as well and Darren couldn't be conclusively ruled out as possibly the contributor of that male DNA. Do you agree with that? No, there is separate DNA that is Darren's. Darren's DNA is found on the sock. It was limb hair, I believe.

But couldn't the DNA that they haven't ruled definitively be just not enough? Sometimes the sample size isn't good. Okay. No, it was completely unknown alleles. So alleles that are not in Darren's DNA makeup and Darren's DNA makeup are the boys' DNA makeup. So they're, you know, together.

For the sake of this, we'll say two DNA profiles, male DNA profiles, not knowing who that DNA belongs to. It could be the intruder. It could be the person who packaged that sock when they first shipped it there. You say you're shaking your head no, but that's happened. It's possible. I would agree that that has happened,

but I would also agree. Yeah, it is definitely possible. Yeah, but in Darley's case, this has been litigated for so long and it's been investigated for so long. These individuals have already been ruled out. Anybody that touched this... You can't rule out the guy who packaged the thing at the factory though. Oh, you're talking about... I don't know what type of sock it was. Okay.

This was, I don't think that that is logical or reasonable in the sense that this was a very well-worn sock and had been washed many, many times and was in the trash pile. So it had pretty much met its lifespan. And I don't think that we would still be seeing remnants from a factory worker that created the sock potentially years ago or six months ago. I won't even argue that point because I don't, I hate when people start going outside of their scope and I'm not a DNA expert. And so I know in the John Benet-Ramsey case, we had something similar with that on her underwear and that's the belief there. But I wanted, because I inaccurately said

I was under the impression it was Darren and Devin who were not on the sock and it was Darlie, but now hearing that, and I'm reacting to this just as you're correcting me, what do you say to the people who say the fact that Darren's blood's not on there, because obviously he wasn't bleeding, but you have Damon and Devin's blood on there,

and yet you don't have Darlie's that could suggest that she killed them Goes out there before cutting herself Plants the sock and comes back because there's gonna be many people who say if this offender had the sock on their hand or in Their possession and they got blood on it from Damon and Devon when they when they were killing them They should have some drops of blood from from Darley as well considering how many times she was cut and yet there's not a single drop of blood from her on there. What do you say to that argument that that does actually make her look more guilty? I don't think that you can follow that argument when you are leaning against what the state presented and their blood

expert because their blood expert says that she had to have killed Devon cut her own throat and then killed Damon that's his testimony and in order for that to fit this theory she would have had to have ran the sock down the alley while she was actively bleeding Yeah, I don't see what happening. It's not possible. That didn't happen. No, it's not possible I didn't watch the trial but I if that's the argument they're making that she cut herself and then ran out the sock I disagree with that. I disagree with that a hundred percent I think if she did it and I've already told you what I feel I'm not skitting, you know beating around the bush She cut herself after they were already dead.

I think she were to cut herself, throwing the glass on the ground, and then she's right there for Darren when he comes down the stairs. Let me tell you something about me. I used to wake up feeling like I just survived a cage match. My back hurt, I was tossing and turning at night. Don't even get me started on the night sweats.

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That's what I think happened. That is you. Okay. And a lot of people are on board with it. They're like, yeah, we see how that could have happened. Logically, that makes sense to me. Maybe he used it on his hand initially or she absolutely did have the sores on the inside of her mouth.

The nurses didn't document them because they didn't document a lot of things that Darlie had physically on her being. It was a very strange case that they didn't know how to handle and nobody was really assessing her the way a crime victim should have been assessed, to be honest. And that would have been how the skin cells got on the sock

because it was shoved in her mouth. But we have Darlie who had previously testified at trial that she thought the man's hand was maybe what caused her injuries. And then it was only until she requested new DNA testing in 2008 that she then brought up the possibility of the sock being shoved in her mouth. And then she said she wanted saliva testing to be done

as it had not been done before. So if the theory of the sock being shoved in her mouth, because as we've discussed before, Darlie's story did consistently change throughout the multiple times that she was asked. I will argue that when you're done. Okay, thanks for letting me finish so I don't lose it. So if it was shoved into her mouth during the attack, you

would expect that her blood would be on the sock. If she had already been cut, perhaps it was done prior to her being cut. Again, we don't know the series of events that unfolded. Nobody does because Darlie has very little memory of what actually happened. Her memory is very spotty. And so we don't know the steps that were taken prior to her coming to and realizing that, you know, they've got a storm going on. So the defense doesn't know the series of events, the prosecution doesn't know the series of events, Darlie herself, us, obviously, none of us know the series of events, which means

that technically she could have run that sack down to the other house. We know that didn't happen. We, Darlie knows that didn't happen. The defense knows that that didn't happen. The blood expert says that that couldn't have happened. And if you believe in the state's theory, then you have to believe that Darlie did this alone, without anybody else's theory, then you have to believe that Darley did this alone, without anybody else's help, completely alone. There's no room for anybody else to be involved if Darley

did this. Yet, their blood expert completely null and voids the theory that the bleeding happened the way it did or the sock got there the way it did. One of the two are not jiving. Okay, but technically, because no one does know, besides Darlie in this specific part with the sock. And maybe even not talking about Darlie. She could have, I'm not saying she did, but technically the boys could have been stabbed first, then the sock could have been run down,

then she could have come back, and then her injuries happened. Basically we're saying the blood expert would be wrong. Yeah, what you're saying is that if it happened that way, then what really convicted her is out the window because a lot of people believe and a lot of people quote what Tom Bevel says about all the blood spatter and about the blood drops and all of those things. That's what really convicted her. And if we're looking at it as if his testimony is accurate, then that sock has no way of getting there.

And if we're looking- I don't think there's any shot that she walked down the road or ran down the road with a sliced throat or a stabbed throat, whatever. I know you guys are very careful with the verbiage. Yes, I would like to also say that, I don't know if, I'm not gonna get into super personal details But if you know Darley's size and her frame and her upper chest was very large

She's not running anywhere fast. There's no way she's going anywhere fast without a bra. We're all adults here We can see the videos and photos of her. think she had an augmentation to write she did Delce was very obsessed with he mentioned it on multiple occasions, which was so weird. Yeah I would say it's a sign of the times honestly yeah goes back to and that goes back to motive to they're always trying to tell the jury Why this person did it? Yes, it's weird the way they fixated on things back then before before someone told them Hey now every single person half the people you know have some type of enhancement. Yeah, and that was normal for the Dallas area.

It was not normal for the Kerrville area. Darlie was a product of Dallas, Texas. Darlie was a Dallas girl. Yeah, very much so. She definitely fit the, watching that last offense, you definitely got a whole picture of it. So is it possible the skin cells found on the sock were just Darlie's skin cells and not necessarily saliva mixed or skin cells from inside her mouth? Or was saliva definitely 100% found on that sock? You know what, I thought I saw something on that. Let me look for my notes, but maybe not.

I can't speak on that exactly because I've not seen that report in a really long time. I don't want to misrepresent something. I know that we were told that it was from saliva, but I don't want to misrepresent that it's putting into a report somewhere that it is specifically saliva. No, I was tested Yeah, it was tested so long ago that I don't know exactly how much detail they had on those epithelial cells now We would know specifically, you know, if it was epithelial cells from your mouth We would be able to tell it looks like it was not because it looks like here that

Your sister was actually requesting Saliva testing be done, which would make us all believe that it hasn't been done yet. So that's the only thing I had on that is that she was requesting saliva testing be done, which would corroborate her story that it potentially was in her mouth. But even she doesn't know if it was. Exactly. She's guessing.

Danelle said she does not agree that Darlie changed her story a few times or multiple times. So I'm going to bring it back to that because I'm interested in your take. OK, so in regards to Darlie's story evolving or changing, I would be remiss if I did not mention that you cannot have a scripted answer to every question when you're in a traumatic situation. And your brain definitely tries to make things make sense based on

what you do know. Darlie's story does not ever change. She is consistent with what she says. Every time it comes directly from her mouth, she's consistent with it. Officer Waddell speaks very passionately about him instructing her to provide aid to her children. Never once in the 911 call do you hear him instruct her to help her babies. That is not heard anywhere on the 911 call. He says to Darren to get a towel. Darlie had already given him a towel.

And if you read it the way he talks about it and the way the 911 call goes, he says everything he talks about with Darlie is during the 911 call. He does not speak to her again at all. After the 911 call, there is no further communication between Waddell and Darlie. He says that himself. Yet, the 911 call, you can't hear him say any of that. He doesn't ever tell her anything other than lay down, sit down right here. That's it. And if you're telling me to lay down and sit down

right here, then how can I help my children? And to all of the speculation that Darlie never offered aid to her children, the blood map completely ruins that. Darlie's blood is seen walking to Devon. Darlie's blood is seen walking to Damon. There is blood there of hers contributing to offering aid to her boys. The blood map supports her theory. I think that basically everything we have as evidence is supported by Darley's statement. They developed this theory that she did it. James Cron starts working on it

at like 5 36 o'clock that morning. There has not been a detailed statement from Darley. All they know at this point is that Darlie was on the couch. She awoke to an intruder. The intruder stabbed her boys and attacked her. That's all they really know. And they know that Darlie doesn't have a visual understanding of who this individual is. She only can tell you that he had on a dark shirt, blue jeans, and a

baseball cap, and longer hair. That's all she knows. That's all she's ever said. She's not said anything past that. We did have some investigators working on investigating it privately for us as a family while the trial was going on. There were several suspects that we felt were very promising. DNA wasn't like a thing back then where you could,

like you didn't understand it like you do now. So there was this thought that it is this guy. It could be that guy. It really could be this guy. And that was kind of where Darlie's head was during the trial. Well, we've got to find who did this because if we can prove that person did it, then they know it wasn't me. And this crazy nightmare that she woke up in can be over. Unfortunately, we couldn't get to that point. And they took her letters and used them against her, saying she was planting the names of individuals that she thought could have done it. And really, it was just like a hopeful statement. I think it could be this guy. This really, he fits every thing that we've seen. And I've done that myself. Like I've gotten leads over the years.

And I was like, Oh my God, I can't rule him out. Like this one's legit. This could be the real guy. And then, you know, for whatever reason, it's kind of like, wah, wah, wah, not him. For whatever reason, we could find a way to rule him out. Or we know it's kind of like, wah, wah, wah, not him. For whatever reason, we could find a way to rule him out or we know it's not him because that person has a record and would be in the system or whatnot. So you don't necessarily disagree that the story that she told based on, you know, from police interviews, written statements to the trial did change,

but you're saying it wasn't a malicious changing. It was just, hey, this is how things are remembered. This is how things evolved. Maybe when she was, you know, speaking to the police, she was taken out of context. Yes. Everything you're hearing repeated back during the trial that you're basing your assessment that her story changed is all from, it's like a game of telephone. The nurse heard her say this, the detective heard her say this. Waddell says she said all this, but what she said to Waddell was during the 911 call and it's not on the 911 call.

So you can eliminate Waddell's statement altogether because nothing he said he talked to her about is on the 911 call. So it's pretty much not there because it didn't exist. He didn't tell Darlie to help the boys ever. I hate doing this because I would make a horrible police officer because I feel like I'm grilling you now and it's like, I don't want her to think I don't believe her. No, you're okay. But how do you account Darlie's sort of story, the changes?

We do know for a fact that between her first written statement, which was taken, I believe a few days after the boys' funeral, or she went right from the funeral to the police station, it was the day that her and Darren went there together. And that was their first written statements to her statements at the trial. Those did change slightly.

There were things that were never brought up during her written statement, you know, things added like her talking about wetting the cloths and things like that. How would you explain that? Do you think it's just because when she was being interviewed, she didn't remember everything or based on what, you know, people who think she's guilty believe is that she had obviously already gotten information through her defense team of what the prosecution's case was. So her testimony at trial was trying to sort of match the evidence that the prosecution

had. The best way to answer that is if Darlie was changing her story, I don't know how to explain this the best way. So if you are staging a scene, that part of the staging is going to be part of your story. Like you're going to include that and that was not an issue with Darlie's case. There wasn't like things that she included that she shouldn't have known about. The issue with Darlie's statements. So the first one was created. She wrote her first official statement on June 8th. She left the hospital to get ready for the funeral. The police picked her up. They drive her straight to the police department. She writes out her whole

her straight to the police department. She writes out her whole account of what happened. We are completely oblivious to the fact that they think Darlie and Darren are responsible in some form or fashion. So when you're recounting a traumatic event, it's possible that you see things that are important and other things that are not important. you see things that are important and other things that are not important. And if I'm telling this story from Darley's perspective, and some man just broke into my house and tried to kill my kids and myself, I'm not going to necessarily provide details as to what happened after he left or what I did to render aid, because it's not important to the crime itself. It wasn't part of the actual attack.

And I do think that that's why she didn't say, I went to the sink and I wetted a towel and then I went to Devon and I gave Darren the towel and then I came back to the sink and I got another towel and then I went. Plus, if you think about it, you don't know what you did. Like you're just functioning on adrenaline and it is very possible that these things just happened and she realizes after the fact, once they say, you know, we think you're responsible, you must have done it because this, this and and this." Maybe that lines up with how she remembers things, but it was there before she was questioned. The towels were in the crime scene photos. We know that she was rendering aid because she tells them

in the ambulance that she tried to help Darren with CPR. We know that she renders AIDS because she talks to one of the nurses about providing CPR. There's other things that support what she was saying in her statement. The little details that she leaves out could very well be contributed to, I'm focusing on the attack. What could be helpful in finding the intruder, not what could be helpful in defending myself? Because again, we had no idea they were suspicious. Yeah, no idea at all. Greg Davis wasn't talking to us. We didn't know he was involved. We had Jimmy Patterson, who was very active at communicating with us and on multiple occasions told us that he had found DNA underneath Darlie's fingernails and that that was going to be how we solved

it and, you know, all these little things. He was giving us that information in an attempt to, I guess, make Darlie comfortable. And we just completely believed with our whole hearts that they were on the same side as us. And we trusted what they were doing and saying. And it was quite the opposite. They were definitely building a case to support Darlie being the guilty person. The thing about the sync is what you're saying

makes perfect sense. I think any parent watching this would say, hey, listen, if I woke up to this, I'm not going to remember half of what happened, maybe 90% of it. I'm blacked out. It's a traumatic event. You're asking me specific details. All I saw were my two little boys stabbed on the floor.

That's the only thing that I could see. The other side to that coin is that people are gonna say, and we've already told you what we think, as far as where we'd go with it, but the other side, the people who think she's guilty are gonna say, she realized that they had, she cut herself at the sink, she realized her blood was gonna be in that sink,

now she has to have a justification as to why that blood's gonna be found there. Oh, I brought the towels over to the sink My blood was on it because I was patting myself I'm not saying I'm not trying to convince you but the point I'm making here is depending on what you want to believe You can contort the evidence to fit your narrative and that's why this case is so intriguing I wanted to talk about one more thing that I didn't have on my list but now I'm remembering it and I really want your opinion on it and maybe the opinion of Darlie if you've spoken to her about it because I think it's a critical piece of evidence that we almost overlooked and

it's the knife and it's not necessarily the knife itself, but it's the fact that the fibers from the screen were found on that knife. How do you explain the fact that the offender, I believe that they came in through that knife. How do you explain the fact that the offender, I believe, if they came in and came in through that screen. It's like you're in my head. And that's not even on our notes or anything. That's just, but like, how do you explain, how do you explain fibers from the screen being on a knife that would have had been, would have been used to gain entry to the house in the first place? That is a really good question. And that is something that a lot of people kind of lean on as the determining factor I think I do. Okay. Let me blow your mind then okay? Okay blow my mind so you dip a paintbrush in some white paint and

Then you go and you paint something and then you come back and you dip your paintbrush in some pink paint and you paint something There's still some white paint in your other color some pink paint and you paint something, there's still some white paint in your other color. So it is my belief and I think the belief of a lot of people that support Darlie that that is contamination and contamination alone. Screen fibers on a knife for food. 100%. That knife block was dusted. The knife beside the opening on each side, those were

dusted. However you look at it, it's in the trial transcript that those were dusted. Five years. When you say dusted, you're talking dusted for prints. Dusted for fingerprints by Hamilton. He dusted the window screen first and then worked his way in, dusted the door, dusted the countertops, dusted the refrigerator, dusted the window screen first and then worked his way in, dusted the door, dusted the countertops, dusted the refrigerator, dusted that knife block and the two handles beside the knife that was used, that empty spot. In that process, those fibers could have been transmitted everywhere.

We can't quantify how many fibers were spread all over the house, but it is very very plausible that that was there just by even the intruder himself when he reaches in and grabs that other knife. He could have deposited some fibers in that butcher block at the time. Mr. Lynch, who was our trace evidence analyst himself, says there should have been more fibers on the knife had Darley cut the screen with that knife. He, in all his experiments that he did, and he was much more of a scientist than Bevel was, in his experiments there was well more than one tiny fiber that was so

minute it could not be tested in any other way. Lynch suggested they do the chemical analysis to determine if it was the same exact chemical composition as what was in the screen and Greg Davis said no we don't need that. That's okay we don't need that. And let me tell you why You just have to leave enough room for somebody to presume that she's guilty that's all he needed was that little bit of wiggle room and if anything can confirm or Eliminate her as the suspect. He didn't want it documented and all of his experts that he goes out and gets, majority of them tell you during their transcript, during the trial in the transcripts that

Greg Davis said he did not need a report. And that is a very, very tricky thing because you're paying somebody to analyze something, but you don't want to report. but you don't want to report why would you not want to report because it's discoverable and then we know what's out there so that was a lot of it so I'm gonna go back to the actual processing of the prints there's a couple things that could dispute your theory I don't have the information but here's what I'll say there's different types of mechanisms brushes that can be used in wands that can be used to process a fingerprint. One would be like a feather, one would be like a fiber, one would be like a horse hair.

There's all different types of brushes you can use for different applications. There's also a metal wand, which is used for magnetic powder. Magnetic powder wouldn't leave any type of contamination because what you do with the wand is you stick it into the magnetic powder, you drop the wand down, it grabs the magnetic powder into a ball, you process the area and then you hit the wand again and that magnetic powder dissipates, it goes away, but the wand itself never touches any of the substrates.

The other argument I would make is if they're processing the window for fingerprints, again, I wasn't there, so I'm not saying this conclusively. I'm processing the outer frame of the window. I'm not processing the screen itself. And the reason why I'm not processing the screen, it's a physical impossibility to get a fingerprint off a screen. You're not going to do it. It's hard enough to get it off a piece of glass.

You're definitely not going to dust anywhere near the screen because the screen is not going to give you anything usable. So it's an interesting angle. I think it's something where if you're looking at it from the outside and you're not personally connected to it, there's a lot of serious, there's a lot of information here that says a combination of things. The police were out to get Darlie. They had assumed it was her right away, which I think we agree with, or not that we agree with, but you agree with my, what I'm saying. Uh, and then the second thing was there was some really unfortunate

luck for, for Darlie as well, where things just look like she did it, but there's explanations for it that are not highly, not, we can't sit here and say that it's very likely of contamination. I've processed very likely of contamination. I've processed a lot of prints. I've never had the substrates transfer over from one brush to another. Not in that context. It doesn't mean it's impossible. I'm not some, you know, crack detective who's investigated every case. It's definitely possible. I was giving an argument the other day when we talk about recreating experiments and recreating scenes and I brought up the India flight that just happened where there was 292 people on a flight. They crashed,

the thing blew up, one man walked away from that plane crash pretty much unscathed. He was sitting in row 11A and he was walking away on film and on his phone. Now if you and I, if the three of us got together and recreated that exact situation and tried to replicate that exact person in that exact seat, surviving this crash, we could do it a million times. We may never be able to recreate it. But as I sit here right now and people give me shit for this, I have to say it's possible, right? It's possible because I can't say 100% certainty, maybe 99 in my opinion, but I can't say with 100% certainty

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So Stephanie, any words on that as well? Yeah, I wanna go back to learn more. That's k12.com slash podcast. So Stephanie, any any words on that as well? Yeah, I want to go back to the knife. We have talked at length, especially the first few episodes about Darlie consistently bringing up the fact that she had touched the knife to the 911 operator to the police on the scene when she got to the hospital. And obviously your her sister, you talked to her a lot. I'm sure you guys have talked about what the internet is saying what people in general are saying Does she have an explanation for that? Like what was her thought process or where was her head at? I guess is what my question would be I think that the Background that would help with this

Maybe and I don't know this is just my memories as a child our house was broken into when we lived in Lubbock, and the police came out and dusted everything. And in that, we were all there. We were coming home from something. Darlie, me, Dana, my dad, and my mom, we were all there. We find that our house is broken into, the police come in and they dust these areas

looking for any kind of usable print. Nobody ever found anything. It never turned into, like we didn't get anything out of it. It was just minor, nothing of great value. I think they stole a TV, something stupid. But that process definitely showed us that fingerprints are important to a criminal case. And I think that one, you have to know

that Darlie's fingerprints were never found on that knife. And two, the way that it is presented is that she offers that information at first, but in the 911 call, she's asked about that. Like she says the knife was over there and she tells the 911 operator, he dropped the knife, he left, and the operator says, don't touch

anything. Well, then that plant, oh my God, I picked it up. I can't believe I picked it up. I should have not picked it up. But she's following this intruder that has injured herself and her child, and you can't just leave their weapon there for them to come back and get you some more. So she picks it up more of an instinct of protecting herself and her family and disarming this intruder.

And in that process, she didn't realize that she was maybe contaminating evidence. But that is important if you don't know who did this and you genuinely are concerned about finding who did this and who's responsible for this, that would be important to you. I would think about that now. I mean, I'm a crime fan, so I would think about that now.

But back then there wasn't really true crime shows. There wasn't this obsession so much with true crime. And I really do think that it comes back to when our house was robbed. We sat there and watched these police officers fingerprint things. But to answer your question more specifically, she was asked, she was told not to touch anything. And in response to that, she says, I picked up the knife, I already picked it up. And then she realizes, oh, God, I shouldn't have picked it up because there could have been prints.

That particular handle was not conducive to fingerprinting. And so, no, a lot of people think footprints are so easy to grab I'm so glad you said that because we know she picked up the knife and yet there's no fingerprints there So if we didn't know it people would make the argument Oh, she never picked up that knife because people think that no matter what you touch You're gonna get a fingerprint like the movies and TV and that's just not the reality definitely not the reality and another thing I wanted to mention, you make comment about her stepping on the glass

and hearing the glass crunch under her feet. That's not part of this case. That was never said, she never said that. She never had any glass in her feet. She never said she felt glass. She never stepped on any glass. So that's the problem with Darlie's case. A lot of people like to take it on and things come out of their presentation where maybe they change one word

and it becomes a whole different storyline. You know, like it's a whole nother statement when you take that one word out. Just like the Darlie or Dana was staying at her house for two weeks. I don't know where that came from. I've never once heard that and it's not true. So, but unfortunately people take on these cases and they dissect them and they add in their own little trajectors, their own little prerogatives or, you know, what if she did this because of the biases, yeah, their own little biases. That's, that's a fair statement. Yeah. It happens every day. We're all viewing it through our own lens and everybody's lens has a different

backstory. So for me and for Darlie and for Dana, we'd never lost anybody. We'd never been to a funeral. We'd never had that kind of loss in our life. We didn't know anything about the crime shows. We didn't know that they were implicating her. We didn't know any of those things. And they say that an innocent person is the hardest person to defend because you don't know. You really don't know. And if you don't know, you can't fabricate an explanation or a story to make it make sense. And I think that that's a lot of the problem with Darley's story is people try to fit pieces together.

It's like a round peg and a square hole. And you just can't do that. If you take away all of the opinions, all of the opinions, and you strictly look at facts, there is nothing, absolutely not one single thing that can be exclusively connected to Darlie being guilty. Every bit of their evidence is contamination or hearsay. Somebody said she changed her story because she said this,

Waddell said she said this. But none of that can be proven. That is all just opinion. Same with the blood spatter. That is an opinion. And nowadays you cannot convict somebody on blood alone. And the definition of an expert witness is so much different now than what it was back then. Back then, I could have been an expert on crime scene. We're still seeing it. yeah, we're still seeing it. Trust me. It's a problem. Here's what I'll say Well, we talked on the phone I said right out to you that you weren't coming on this the show to convince me or convince Stephanie of something you were you were giving another side of this story, which we are always about

We don't we just want the truth. This is about Damon and Devon at minimum, right? Bringing the person responsible to justice if they haven't already. And I could sit here and we could keep going back and forth. I respectfully disagree with you that there's not evidence here that says it's your sister. I think there's a lot that doesn't align with what she did say. That's just my personal opinion, but I want to say something in a positive note. And this isn't bullsh**. I absolutely love this conversation because here's a group of people who have never met before having a strong difference of opinion and having a

respectful conversation about with discourse, but hearing each other out and understanding that we're all, we all want the same thing. And I don't know you that well, Danelle, but I, I, I pride myself on being able to read people and I've been talking to you for now for over two hours. And here's my takeaway on you. I believe you, I believe that you believe Darlie is innocent. And I respect the hell out of that because there's people I talk to

who damn well know what happened and still will scream from the rooftops that they're innocent. And I'll go on a limb here and say that if you had proof, if some world, proof came out that said Darlie did it, you would be the first one condemning her actions. Cause I feel as a mother, you're in it for the same thing. Yes, you're trying to prove that your sister's innocent,

but they were your nephews as well. And you want justice for them. And so regardless of whether we agree or not, I think this was a super constructive, credible conversation from different sides, talking about a case and at the core of it, all wanting the same thing and We were thinking this interview was gonna be 30 minutes in a bigger episode

And we were already talking as you were talking saying this has got to be a full episode We don't want to cut any of this out. We want everyone to be able to consume Everything that we've talked about and come to their own opinions That's what this is really about not Not coming in with preconceived notions, hearing people out, and deciding whether you believe it or not, that's what it should be. Yeah, obviously we'll cut around mistakes and things, but I want it to be.

Our pee breaks for everybody out there, we'll cut around that. I think to have the solid, just us talking back and forth so it doesn't even seem like we're like, oh, we're cutting out this part. I think that's the most important thing. We want you to be able to speak in full. And honestly, I respect the hell out of you.

This is your sister. This is what, like I said, what I would do for my sister. I feel the same way as Derek. Like I get, I'm not like a detective, but I get impressions of people. I gotta do it like that. I gotta do it like that. I'm not a detective.

I'm not a fancy detective. But I'm a human and I get like distinct impressions of people. I got a fancy detective. But I'm a human and I get like distinct impressions of people. I didn't feel like you were trying to be, you know, hiding anything or that you're outright lying about anything. You have spent a lot of time and energy on this. This is important to you. And regardless, at the end of the day, what I think, what Derek thinks, what anybody listening thinks, if Darlie did not do this, I am putting all my thoughts and energy into hoping that she finds justice and gets out and can rejoin her family. We do not, we're not the arbiters of what's true or fake or who's guilty or who's innocent. And I know that you're fighting for her. You have a lot of people

out there fighting for her. She's obviously fighting for herself. And there's no ill will here if she is innocent. And if she, you know, hopefully can prove that, I will have, I will be one of the first ones in line to congratulate you and her and say, this is what happened because both Derek and I, there's never a time where we wanna see anybody who is innocent sit in jail, not even for a day. So yeah, we're glad we got to talk to you and I think it was an important conversation

and we wish you luck. I appreciate it. Good, Danelle, before you give your final words, if somebody wants to contact you, if you're open to this, is there anywhere where people can contact you? Maybe they have stuff about the case, who knows? Is there a certain line of communication that you would like people to use?

Now, listen, the only thing I'll say by putting it out there, there are obviously, we talked off record that there are some people who don't necessarily agree with what you're doing off record that there are some people who don't necessarily agree with what you're doing and you speaking out So maybe you don't want to share that information if you don't I'll just cut this part out But if there's something you would like for a line of communication for people to reach you You can you can say it here totally up to you I would say that that all needs to go through the innocence project. I can't be the keeper of

to go through the Innocence Project. I can't be the keeper of the leads. I mean, I do randomly get these crazy leads or random things get brought to my attention and that I always send it right to the Innocence Project. So I would love for that to be part of that final statement. I will say, Stephanie, I wanted to just say, you said that you would defend your sister no matter what and irregardless of guilt or innocence and if you saw things that may lead to her guilt,

you might choose to look over them. I don't think you would. No, no, no. I didn't say that. I said I could never imagine, like you could never Tell me like I know my sister In my heart. I I was raised with her like we've been best friends since she was born We've been inseparable. So like in my heart if somebody were to say she did this I'd be like absolutely not you'll never ever Make me believe that but I mean if there was like video You know, I'd be like, damn, I was wrong. Right.

Well, so I may have misunderstood how you worded it, but the thought is still the same. I 100% have drilled into every possible angle that could support Darlie being guilty. Because first of all, I don't want to be out making this whole. Yeah, you don't want to be that person. Yeah, of course. And I've seen those people. So I understand that they exist, but I have scrutinized every angle.

I have bought textbooks. I have read articles. I have educated myself in every possible way to ensure that what I'm saying is absolute fact and or supported by fact and I would regardless of what the outcome was or how we got there I would love Darlie no matter what because she is my sister but I would never ever excuse her actions if that's what had happened. It has never ever once been even the tiniest inkling that Darlie could be responsible for this in my mind. It's never been possible.

But as you grow up and as you age and as you see things, you realize, I can't trust what I see all the time for what it really is. You have to really investigate it yourself. And like I was saying, I have spent an unknown amount of hours educating myself, researching things, looking at articles like facts and sources that are reliable sources, the National Institute of Justice, the District Attorney's Office, the legal system, like all of it. I have really tried hard and it's still,

every single time, it always goes back to it matches her story. It matches what she remembers and it matches what she said the first time she wrote a statement. It still matches what she said when she was on the stand. all of it still lines up and matches based on what we knew the next morning. When we went in and saw her, nothing has changed about what we heard then and what we know now. We still know how it unfolded based on Darlie's story, and that story has been consistent for us. The hearsay back and forth, she told me this, she said that, but in reality none of that was even documented. You can pull stuff from your memory and say it on stand, but how do you expect for anybody

to really truly trust what you're saying on the stand when what you're saying on the stand doesn't match what you documented in your notes or in your reports, so It's very touchy and it is oh, it's this is personal it is very personal It is my life and that's the thing regardless of what happened It's affected you and your family exponentially and it it's something that will be a part of your life forever forever and listen We really appreciate you coming on it takes a lot of guts to come on and do this you I advised you to listen to part Five before coming on you said yep I'll do it and yet you still showed up here, and I'll be honest with you

I didn't think you were gonna show up. We were going back and forth with the text messages I was like she she was a little cold feet already, and I told you you don't have to come on I'm like she's not gonna come and And you showed up and I respect that I respect it a lot And yeah, I think you're gonna have a lot of people who may disagree with you in the comments But the fact that you're willing to put your your face out there and put your words behind how you feel Nobody can can say anything bad about that because not everyone would be willing to do it I'm wishing the best for you. I'm wishing the best for you

We are wishing the best for you and your family and if something changes in this story Because it is a polarizing case. We will absolutely cover it and if if it does something happen, maybe we'll have you back Yeah, keep us updated Yes And and you know what how the innocence project is moving along and and what they're discovering and if there's new testing and stuff Keep us updated because we do crime weekly news too and we can throw that into an episode and just, you know, keep everyone in the loop. We definitely are hoping. It's hopeful and I have faith. The Innocence Project and the

Dallas Conviction Integrity Unit are working hard at really drilling down into it. And it's easy for me to put myself out there whenever I know so wholeheartedly with every fiber of my being that I'm not fabricating anything. And it is what it is. And I try very, very strongly to not present anything for anything that it's not. It is, I try to keep it just as it is, exactly verbatim for what it's written as, because it is very, it gets into semantics and people twist things around and take one word out and it changes the whole story. So, but I do appreciate you guys covering this. Even though you may have a different opinion than me, I realize that we are all adults.

We can all agree to disagree. Hey, we're not the only ones, right? I mean, a I mean a jury a jury convicted her you know so it's not like we're coming out of left field with this it's easy to find someone guilty when you already know what the trial was come out with however I will say it is much harder to speak out against a verdict when you don't have any like legal course to support that determination. It is much easier to believe she's guilty than it is to put yourself in a world where some random person or maybe somebody that was connected to the family

broke into their house, stabbed the boys and Darlie, and then gets away scot-free and then Darlie gets put in jail for it. That is such a scary concept for anybody to really put their brain around. Like, how do you even? Why are you saying that? Why are you saying that? Because I corrected myself. I know we're gonna keep going on.

It's gonna be a three hour episode. But I corrected myself based on our messages where I had taken from, I had interpreted as you suggesting Darren might be involved, but then we talked again. You emailed me, you're a little mad at me. I know there's other sources. She's got boundaries. But what, what do you think happened? We'll leave that. We'll end this episode with what you, you've said you've covered it.

You said you looked into it. You've researched it it You've lived it. What do you think happened? It's my best Guess I lean on that there was two people involved in this whole process There's a lot of stuff that could support that There none of Devon's blood is on the murder weapon The impression of a murder weapon on the carpet doesn't fit the murder weapon that was found. I think that that supports it. Devon's wounds are a little bit different in depth and in width than what that murder weapon should have left. There's a lot of different things that makes me think there was two intruders, and it is very possible that one of two things happened. This was either Darren had a guy that worked close to him

that had some insurance fraud in his past. Darren had a car stolen as part of his past. Maybe there was some communications. Darren admits that there was conversations about insurance fraud. Is it possible that someone just overheard this conversation, knew that Darley and Darren were planning on taking a trip to Pennsylvania and would be gone for two weeks, and maybe decided to go rogue and hit the house themselves? Darren's car's not there, so they must

be at the airport, right? So then they break in and they see Darley's laying on the couch, and from there it goes into, okay, well, Darlie's the only one here. I'll just take advantage of the situation. She was very known for her appearance. She was beautiful and very, very much a sex appeal in every form for most people. Like maybe a woman that men would cover. Yes, definitely definitely and she was Followed from the grocery store a few times by different people she would be approached by men like it

It definitely when you see a pretty woman most the time you look at them and Darley definitely got that I think she was somewhat oblivious to a lot of that. She didn't take any of that as serious as she should have. And whoever- Yeah, like boys will be boys kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. And she also trusted everybody. So there was people in her life that were not good people and Baja, JoVel being one

of them, and she loved Baja and she included her in everything because she wasn't judgemental and she was inclusive and she loved everybody because everybody deserves love But if this individual breaks in and you know, say they've got a pocket knife They cut the screen they come in because that window stayed open and they would have known that window was open there's so much more I could go into on this but to keep it short and sweet the My opinion is that they came in with an intent to either Rob the house for whatever was available, saw Darlie laying on the couch and then their motive switched and it becomes maybe we can sexually assault her or maybe we can essay her.

And then it becomes Devon and Damon as collateral damage. One of them, one of these intruders steps on Devin or kicks Devin, whatever. You can't see Damon because he's between the couch and the love seat, just in a wad of blankets. They wouldn't have even known he was there. Devin was on a blanket and a pillow, but you could have probably overlooked him if you weren't expecting a child to be down there. They step on Devin, he wakes up as they're killing him, and there is some vertical drip of

blood on him. So he very well could have been upright at one point or another. Damon, all of his wounds are on his back. So he most likely was still asleep. A knife attack, the average time it takes is like 23 seconds. So it was very fast. Darlie then was attacked. And that's my opinion, that that was the order it went in. But you can't, I can't really say for sure why it would have gone that way. But I do think that the motive changed from potentially robbing the house to assaulting Darlie. And her panties being missing are a big factor for me,

because... Did they do a rape kit on that? No, they didn't. At that point in time... It says it in here. Hold on. I'll go ahead. There's been several things that I've heard you quote that are not from the transcript

or from the trial itself. A lot of people do that. They pull things out of articles or they pull things from other sites or whatever, or they trust the source and what they're given is not necessarily a hundred percent fact. She had a vaginal exam, a speculum exam. They swabbed her. There was no evidence of any trauma to her.

Lady Bits did not have a rape exam because rape exams at that point in time were only conducted at Parkland Hospital. And Darlie wasn't able to get up and walk out and go to Parkland Hospital to have an exam. No, but they did conduct a vaginal swab. They did a vaginal swab. There was not any STDs found. And I don't think that they actually looked at those

for semen, but there is no documentation that there was semen found in her vaginal canal. Okay. I have one question. Dana, what do you make of Darren going to the old house and asking the homeowner if the screens had been cut? And I couldn't find this anywhere. How long had it been since Darlie and Darren moved

from the old house to the new house? Like, what was that passage of time between how long they'd been at the new house? I'm not 100% sure. I want to say it was less than three years, probably closer to two years. And I think that I can't speak for Darren. I don't know exactly what the rationale was.

I'm thinking that it probably was suggested by the defense attorney to go check those screens to see if they were missing any screens or if there was any damage to the screens or I don't know why or what the thought process behind that was. I will say this, when we were going through all this, people were like vultures and they wanted to talk to us and they wanted to hear things that we had to say. And sometimes things were misrepresented because they felt like Darlie was guilty. So then all they hear is what they wanted to hear.

And then they repeat it with that lens, that lens that I was talking about. They repeat what they remember through their lens. And it doesn't always reflect an accurate picture of what was said or the questions that were asked. And so I don't know about that because I wasn't there. The person that repeated all of that, I don't know how she felt about the case or what she thought or what her motives were. And I don't know why Darren would have gone to look at those other than by direction from maybe the lawyers. That's the only thing I can think of.

Do you still talk to Darren? Does Darren still associate with Darlie in prison? Like, is he still? He doesn't really have any direct contact with her, but Darren is like my brother. He was around me from the time I was in diapers and will always be part of my family and I love him very much.

And I 100% don't believe that he had any intentions or any known connection to this crime taking place. I think that if he did, or if there was any known connection, he would have been like, peace out y'all, I'm done with this. And never looked again, but he didn't. And so that really does support the thought that he is 100% oblivious to any answers and that he, along with Darlie, are innocent of anything that could have connected

them to purposely killing their children. I will say that I said it in the series multiple times. There's evidence in there that doesn't align with them both being involved. It's either one party or an outside party because there's evidence in there that where, at points, there is a little bit of a conflict, this conflicting statement's minor ones between Darren and Darlie. And if they were working together,

that wouldn't happen. They would have known every detail to explain every piece of evidence. Absolutely agree with that. Listen, we appreciate you coming on. Everyone, laying down in the comments, if you're watching on YouTube, let us know what you think. If you're on audio, you can leave a review,

tell us what you think. Danelle, we really do appreciate you coming on. I hope that we allowed you the opportunity to give you, you said it, you said it multiple times. You have so much you could talk about. This is your whole life. But I think we covered a lot of ground, and if people wanna reach out to the Innocence Project,

they now have that information. Guys, we will be back next week. We're gonna do an additional part on this series, because we added a whole episode planned out. We thought this interview was gonna be short. We're not gonna cut any of it out. But we're gonna do a whole episode, which, Danelle, y'all appreciate this.

An episode on not only maybe some of the things that you believe in, but some of the other theories that have been put out there, some of the things that you believe in, but some of the other theories that have been put out there, some of the other evidence has been, that's been dissected to suggest that Darlie is innocent. So we're going to do a whole episode on it and let you guys come to your final conclusions on this one. But again, Danelle, thank you for joining us. Stay safe out there. That's what I say to everybody. So we'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much. I will for sure. And I do really honestly appreciate you guys covering it

because talking about it puts it out there again. And that's what we need. Absolutely. So thank you guys. Thank you, Denal. Appreciate you so much. Thank you. Bye.

Okay, so that was our conversation with Denal. Really illuminating. Really, you know, we continue to have differences of opinion throughout the conversation. But I thought, like as Derek had told Denelle in the episode, it was just great to know that even though we stood on opposite sides of the issue, we could still be respectful and open and listen to each other and communicate without any resentment or anger. She really held herself in such a great and respectable way. We're so glad she came on the show to talk to us. We give her a lot of respect for that.

Yeah, takes a lot of courage to do that. Yeah, 100%. And you know there was a part of me that was like, okay, she's gonna come on and she's gonna be some crazy person and she's gonna be throwing out these random theories. No, a lot of what this comes down to is there's evidence and there's the interpretation of that evidence and we were talking about the same things in that interview, but her opinion on what it meant was completely different. And then, you know, you do see it in some cases where when the evidence is very incriminating, it goes back to law enforcement corruption or mishandling of the evidence. It can never just be that the evidence is incriminating. You know, it's all, oh, the fibers on the knife had to be cross-contamination.

It can't just be what it looks like, which is that she used the knife to cut the screen. But there was some fascinating stuff in there. I can see the fact that there are some pieces of evidence that we don't know entirely what it means. The bloody fingerprint, the sock, we can't explain it perfectly, but my, me leaving the episode and I went into it with an open mind,

I had a lot of questions, some of them, she didn't give me an answer that swayed me. I think there's things about Darlie sleeping through the attack, through the stabbing, through the bruising, through all this assault that occurred, and yet waking up right when Damon taps her as the offender is walking away. So she doesn't wake up for anything. And then she wakes up just by the subtle tap from her son, just in time to see the back of her, of the intruder. To me, I don't know about you guys, but if I'm sleeping and someone pinches my arm or punches me in the face or stabs me in the neck,

I'm gonna wake up. At least during one, because this wasn't just one stab wound. This was multiple wounds So how does that happen and she just sleeps right through it that to me right there is a big problem and then like I said to her in the episode the differences in the That wounds to both Damon and Devin and then her not even about left or right, you know dominant arm non-dominant arm The intent behind the injuries were totally different. Now she presented a theory of this was a robbery that

went turned into a murder that then turned into a possible sexual assault, but then an attempted murder. I'm not going to sit here and discredit everything she said cause she's no longer here, but I think that's a stretch. I think it's much more likely that it's exactly what it looks like to me, which is she was going through some stuff and for some reason in her mind, she felt that she, the world was better off or they were better off without Damon and Devin in it. We're not gonna be able to rationalize that, but that's what I think happened.

I think there wasn't, I don't know if there was a financial motive behind it. I don't know any of that. I think ultimately she just felt like this was know if there was a financial motive behind it. I don't know any of that. I think ultimately she just felt like this was the right thing for everybody in her life. That doesn't make sense. That's what I come to. And there's a lot of evidence to suggest that with the glass and the screen and the blood and the lack of blood on the couch where she was assaulted. And then also, you know, the fact that she said it was a, they might've came in as a robbery. So you would think they come in for the robbery,

but then they realize that there are people there when they didn't expect them to be there. At that point, they could easily turn around and leave. And yet, no, they come in and they say, hey, there's three people down here, possibly Darren upstairs, but we're gonna assault his wife on the couch while the kids are right next there right next or even just one Kid because they couldn't see the other one and potentially Darren's upstairs now

But we're gonna do all this and it's gonna be fine but then before doing it they possibly kick one of the children and decide oh now we have to kill them and In the process we're gonna stab her too But we're not gonna stab her in a way that would definitively, without a doubt, kill her like we did the two little boys. And then we're not even going to S A her because now we don't have time because we've stabbed everyone. And we're not going to steal all the jewelry that was sitting. We're not going to take anything. And we're doing all this,

not knowing if someone's upstairs. So it's a, it's a lot to believe. I'm not saying this to discredit her. I'm just saying when she says that theory, that is something that you have to consider. And I think a lot of you will, but overall it was a good conversation. She's, she knows a lot about the case and I think that I hope we did it justice. She said, sent everything over. We researched what she said and we did the best we could with it. And ultimately it's up to you guys to decide what you believe,

but rarely it's up to the courts. You know, they've already decided on what it is. So you would have to present compelling enough evidence to open this case back up and to bring it back into court or to at least have the police department relook at everything. And I don't think that's going to happen. But any final words from you on this one as far as, I mean, it was a long episode, but any takeaway that you remember that you wanted to bring up before we close this one out? No, I'm excited to jump into the episode next week and kind of go through everything. And at that point, we'll have all the information, right?

For her and against her, and we can give, you know, our final thoughts and as much with as much information as we possibly can have. I think we've all agreed. No one knows what happened here. The mind boggles. We can't figure out a motive because there just doesn't seem to be one that that that makes sense to anyone. So I am looking forward to kind of getting all the information and then giving final thoughts once and for all. Agreed, agreed. Everyone who's watched this video or listened on audio, if you if you I don't want to I always hate to say the word liked but if you

Appreciate what we do and you want to keep supporting us like comment down below It might not seem like a lot it only takes a couple seconds But it means a lot to us because it it it allows us to move up in the algorithm for YouTube and it even helps us on audio the reviews are so huge because basically the way these platforms work is they look to see who's engaging with the content and then decide which which episodes to promote. So we would greatly appreciate that if you did that for us. But yes, we will be back next week with Darley Routier, part seven. Mm-hmm. Yep, absolutely. We will see you then thank you so much and once again thank

you to Janelle for being here with us. Yes absolutely. Everybody try to you know in the same way we had a conversation with her if you don't agree with her if you do just be respectful and 100% that's the way you your child. K-12 can help them gain the skills they need to reach their full potential while giving you the support you need to get them there. K-12-powered schools are tuition-free, accredited online public schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade. Their state-certified teachers make online learning interactive and engaging, allowing your child to learn at their pace from the safety of home.

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