Crime Weekly - S3 Ep338: Self-Defense or Setup | The Unanswered Death of Christian Griggs (Part 2)

Episode Date: September 12, 2025

On the morning of October 12, 2013, 23-year-old Army veteran Christian Griggs went to his in-laws’ property in Angier, North Carolina to pick up his young daughter, Jaden. At 10:54 a.m., he called his father Tony to say that his father-in-law, Reverend Pat Chisenhall, was yelling at him while his estranged wife Katie hid inside the house. Six minutes later, at 11:00 a.m., Tony arrived at the Chisenhall home to find his son lying face-down, bleeding and unresponsive. Pat had shot him six times with a .22 rifle. Once in the abdomen, once on the top of his left shoulder, and four times in the back. Christian was rushed to the hospital, where he was soon pronounced dead. As his family struggled to process the sudden loss, detectives began piecing together what had happened that fateful morning. What they uncovered were conflicting accounts, multiple 911 calls, and questions that would haunt the case for years to come. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. https://www.LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 20% off your first order! 2. https://www.EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off all IQBAR products and FREE shipping! 3. https://www.SKIMS.com/CrimeWeekly - Select our podcast after you order and let them know we sent you! 4. https://www.NakedWines.com/CrimeWeekly - Click 'Enter Voucher' and use code CRIMEWEEKLY for both the code and password for $100 off your first six bottles!

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasser. So today we're diving into part two of the Christian Gregg's case. And we have a lot to talk about today, definitely getting more detailed, looking closer at things, which is good. But before we do, we want to talk about CrimeCon really quick because technically, when you see this, we're back. We're already back, although we're recording it before we go, but we're banking episodes. We don't want anyone who can't attend CrimeCon to not have an episode. And not have an episode because, again, it's a small group of people that are going to be going. So we can't really talk much about how the event went.

I will say, I can't talk at all about it when because we haven't done there yet. Let's make this a little time capsule. So I think I'm going to flub on it. We're presenting an award. I think I'm going to flub on the teleprompter. That's one. I'm worried about that. That's one prediction.

The second prediction is we're going to lose to Kendall Ray. At the Clue Award. So we're nominated for a Clue Award. Content Creators of the Year. Yeah, we're also presenting an award. That's the only way they can get us on stage. At the Clue Award. I think this is what the third year in a row, we're definitely not going to win.

We're definitely not going to win because, Randall Ring is also, this is the first time she's been to CrimeCon and she lives in Denver, so home court advantage. Yeah. But they gave us a script for the award we have to, you know, to introduce. And I was like, Derek. It was horrible. What do you? Yeah.

At first, I was like, I'm not saying these words. We had to rewrite it and send it back. But iced tea is introducing us to give the award. And I think, I think Derek is going to have a little bit of an issue with this. You know what, out of principle, I'm going to surprise you because I hope you do. I'm on a teleprompter every week at Big Brother Unlocked. And it's live to tape. So you could redo it if you have to, but it's on a jib moving.

And I still nail it. So now, just out of principle, I'm going to memorize this freaking script. So I don't mess it up. And I, the karma would be so great if you flub a word. Dude, I really genuinely hope you don't mess up because it's not that I'm attacking Derek needlessly. I do these ads with him every week, and he does the call to action, and sometimes it's hard to get through. That's all. Well, in fairness, you can kind of ad lib your part.

My part's verbatim. So when I mess one word up, they could make us redo the whole thing. But you're not wrong. I'm not disputing it. However, I will be having Shannon cut this up and clip this. Because, by the way, you guys, it's too late now, but the Clue Awards is streaming live. So people can watch it whether you attend or not. And, man, Stephanie Harlow, you flub a word.

I'm going to be reminding you of it for the next 10 years. Okay, so I'm also going to have Shannon cut this up with the, with the clue awards for if you do. But me flubbing is like, that's predictable. Yeah. You calling me out for it. That would be, we're going to have you calling me out and then you flubbing. Because you know what? Why would you wish that on me?

Because. We don't put that evil on me, Ricky Bobby. I'm doing it. And you know what? We're going to be in front of a lot of people. You're not good with big crowds. You'll probably have a cocktail or two. I'm not good with big crowds on the ground.

On stage, impeccable. Okay. All right. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Please, for Christmas, give me something. Baby Jesus. Baby Jesus.

Baby Jesus. Derek Yvesant is just behind. Hi, everybody, we're so happy to be here. Super excited to be. I mean, nice keep you to do this. That's pretty cool. Although, I did not expect to make the marina from Braynorites before he won. Honestly, I was writing to confess to a crime that ain't.

Careful, this is a true crime crowd, I'm sure there's still no longer $48,000. True, true. Okay, so let's keep this moving before Derek imprimonates himself. Good call. So we're here tonight to present the award for Telephone. television, outstanding episodic series. So that means over the course of the entire season, each episode focuses on a different

true kind of case or topic. Yes, and that's not easy to do finding make it tell you an entire piece and one episode takes a lot of work. It's tons of research of making sure you have the right voices to tell the scoring. That's right, knowing what is absolutely essential

to include and never lose insight what really matters, getting justice to honor the neighbors. It's so true. And this year's worthy nominees cover the following. The most harrowing hostage situation from the United States

and an employee. Candid is most notorious for no cases. Stories of America's most memorable murder trials. An inside look of some of the biggest cases of our time for the voices of the officers who sell them. And the most shocking homicides and gripping for cases in Texas history.

Okay. Let's see the nominees. Real quickly, I don't know if they're going to even be for sale, so don't get pissed at me, but we're showing you the crime con shirts. We do a specific shirt. We do a different design every year based on the location. This is the second year we're doing based on where we are. And so if you couldn't make it, look how sick. If you're watching on YouTube here, why don't you want to describe it for him,

Stephanie, if they're on audio? Okay, I will describe it. You stand there. So first of all, you got Colorado, the big word Colorado. You got Crime Weekly above that. Between Colorado and Crime Weekly, Bluifer, amazing. Blusifer, you know, from Denver International Airport, amazing. Underneath, you got the mountains, Colorado, mountains, Denver, known for the mountains. And then it says CrimeCon 2025. It's sick. The colors are great. I love it.

I can't wait to get mine. Yay. You should have it by now. If we have extras, and I did it last year, I believe. If we do have extras, the sizes will be limited. We'll throw them up online. We'll throw them up online. Or if there's only a couple, we'll give them away.

We'll see what the turnout is. I only ordered 250 of them. There's like 7,000 people that come to CrimeCon. We sold more than that last year. We sold out of them last year. I ordered more than last year. We sold out the first day last year. Yeah, it was quick.

So anyways, that was it. As always, we appreciate you guys who are able to attend the fact that we are recording in advance because we want to make sure that everyone still gets their episodes and we have an audience that wants to see what we're saying. It's amazing. Extremely lucky, extremely blessed. We couldn't do without you guys. That's all I got.

I know some of you are like, get to the episode so we can get to the episode now. It's only been five minutes. That's actually good for us. Yeah, even though Derek put a hex on me to mess up. I'm only doing it because you're calling me out. I don't want you to fail. I already texted you. I was like, yo, did you see the script?

Yeah, you were like, Derek, I'm nervous about you. I was like, how are you going to do this? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I haven't been on like 17 TV shows. But I, okay. Okay. Okay.

Under the lights, I'll perform. I have my fingers crossed for both you and I. Likewise. See, that's what, see, I wish the best for both of us. If either one of us messes up at this point, the other one's going to just break out laughing. And it's all, they're never going to ask for us to come back. I may screw you up and just go off script and just like see what happens. You going off script doesn't affect me.

So like you're waiting for that keyword to jump in and say your part. And I just might be like, I'm going to say a random word like, bazinga and just be like, wait, what? Just see what happens. See how you adapt. And now the nominees, Buzinga, see what you do. I'll laugh. Laugh at you. I'll laugh at you.

All right. So let's dive in. I'm going to give you a recap from part one in case, you know, not in case you. you didn't watch it or hear it, because if you didn't watch it or hear it, you should definitely do that first. This won't make a lot of sense if you don't. Because it won't that make any sense. But for those of you who are listening to this a week apart, you might need a refresher.

So on the morning of October 12th, 2013, 23-year-old Army veteran Christian Griggs went to his in-law's property in Angier, North Carolina, to pick up his young daughter, Jaden. At 10.54 a.m., he called his father, Tony, to say that his father-in-law, Reverend Pat Chisunhall, was yelling at him while his estranged wife, Katie, hid inside the house. Six minutes later, at 11 a.m., Christian's father, Tony, arrived at the Chisinaw home to find his son laying face down on the front porch, bleeding and unresponsive. Pat had shot him six times with a 22 rifle, once in the abdomen, once on the top of his left shoulder, and four times in the back. Christian was rushed to the hospital where he was soon pronounced dead. As his family struggled to process the sudden loss, detectives began peace.

together what had happened that fateful morning, what they uncovered were conflicting accounts, multiple 911 calls, and questions that would haunt this case for years to come. So that's where we're at. Yeah. And we talked a lot about perspective, right, depending on where you are. If you're outside the house trying to break in or if you're inside the house in fear of what could happen if that person gains entry, you may agree with Pat or you may agree with Christian. And unfortunately, we're only going to get really one side of the story because Christian's not here to speak for himself. So that is a problem right from the rip. But the evidence will speak for him to some extent. Yeah. I agree. That's what you have to go with here. The ballistic evidence and any

digital evidence you have with the phone calls, text messages, or conversations that happened before or after this whole event. So after Christian was pronounced dead, Harnat County Sheriff's detectives were called to the Chisinaul home to begin an investigation. They quickly learned that leading up to the shooting, multiple 911 calls had been placed. The first one actually came on the evening of October. 11th, the day before the shooting. So if you remember from part one, Christian had gone to Katie's place to pick up Jaden for his weekend with her. And according to Katie, she was going to let him take Jaden, but they argued because Christian was mad she had taken Jaden to the zoo with her friends. Now, Katie said that after the argument, Christian left for a little while, but then came back,

and he asked if he could take Jaden again. And again, she told him no. Christian became upset and allegedly damaged a window air conditioner at her house before leaving. At 6.40 p.m., Katie called 911 to report the damage. Yeah, and I will say, because I'm going to try to be fair through this whole thing, that right there would be domestic disorderly, at minimum, domestic property damage. It says domestic dispute, yeah. Yeah, but if it happened and what she's alleging is true, and that that night before Christian got upset and damaged property of hers, that is a crime. And I've said it before, just to be fair, if someone damages your property or throws something, they could hit you as well. You don't know how far they go when they're upset. So I'm just trying to

look at it from both perspectives here, not only Christians, but also Katie's as well, because that's going to be a big factor in what Katie and Pat believed as they were inside the home. Well, Pat, Katie's father, he wasn't home during that incident the night before the shooting, but he later testified about what Katie told him. He said that Christian was upset that Katie had taken Jade into the zoo and that Christian pulled the AC unit out of the window, climbed inside, and was ranting and raving and screaming and yelling. Pat said, quote, I don't know about threats and those types of things, but it was extremely

upsetting to her, end quote. Okay. As a father, I would have a major issue with this. I'm just saying, I would have a major issue with it because you have this guy, they have a baby together, but he's not. He does not have the right to pull the AC unit out, come into the window, and Pat didn't, you know, exaggerate here. He didn't say, I don't know about threats or anything, but just him breaking into the house and getting inside the house when he's not allowed to be in there. He wasn't given permission.

If he was, as a father, if I'm not there, I'm going to be pretty pissed off about it. Now, you could look at this from two ways. You could look at it as Pat seeing what happened the day before and knowing what Christian's capable of. You could also see it as Pat was upset that he wasn't there when it happened the first time. And that anger that maybe he developed from not being there the first time, he was looking for another chance to confront Christian. That's the other side of the coin that you could look at here, where the incident that happened later was that the result of what Pat wasn't present for the first time. So depending on how you want to look at it, you could see it two ways. So when you say Pat now knew what Christian was capable of,

do you mean pulling the AC window out, getting into the house, ranting and raving and leaving without hurting Katie or anyone else in the house? So what I'm saying is you could make an argument if you're on Christian's side that even though Christian pushed the window in, he had no intent of actually going inside, right? You could make that argument during the day, not the night before. During the day where the shooting actually occurred. However, if you're on Pat's side, you could make the argument that, hey, listen, the night before Christian pulled out the AC unit and came right inside the apartment.

Totally. So we knew what he was capable of. That's what I'm saying. And in my opinion, Christian had every intention of going in the house. I would agree based on if what happened the night before was true, that I completely concur. We know what he's capable of, which would go on the side of this was self-defense. Well, we also know that he's capable of entering the house, having a verbal argument with Katie and then leaving, leaving everyone there unharmed. Fair point. Fair point.

So why would you expect that this day would be different to the point where you had to shoot him four times in the back to make sure. he doesn't enter the house and have another what for a altercation? And that's why I'm saying, what if Pat hears about this incident after the fact and thinks the disrespect, you're going to break into my house and get in my daughter's face and argue with her? That shouldn't have happened if I was here. I wish you would try that when I was here. So even though Christian had no intent on hurting anyone, Pat had an axe to grind from the night before. That's what I was trying to say a couple minutes ago if I didn't make that abundantly clear. So the only other account of that evening comes from Katie's childhood friend and neighbor, Amber, who had taken Jaden to the zoo with Katie.

Amber later testified that after the zoo, she dropped Katie and Jaden back at home. Later that evening, Amber went back to Katie's and found Christian there. Amber described him as angry and confrontational and said he cursed at her for taking Jaden to the zoo. Amber said, quote, after our altercation, he walked back to his car and sped off in the car, end quote. Amber testified that later that night she went back to Katie's house yet again. This time they were sitting on Katie's bed when they heard Christian outside messing with the window unit and asking to be let in. She said she didn't see him actually remove the air conditioner, but she knew that Katie was scared. So this is interesting because according to Amber, she was at the house when Christian arrived and tried to get in the window through the air conditioner.

And according to Amber, who's Katie's best friend, she said Christian was outside messing with the air conditioner asking to be let in. But she did not see him actually remove the air conditioner. So now there's three very different stories. Could he have removed the air conditioner after Amber left? Could he have come back? I guess. That's something to think about. But the fact that she's even acknowledging he was messing with the air conditioner,

there's some truth to it. But you're right. Did Katie and Pat embellish this story after the fact knowing there was a shooting? But there was a 911 call placed that night, though. According, yep, that's what I was just going to say, according to the incident investigation report on 1011, 2013, this is when Katie called it in. And it happened at 6.20 p.m. So, and according to Amber, she dropped them off after the zoo and then came back later that night. Around 6.20 p.m. would be later that night. It's not like, it's not like Katie called the police at 11 or 12. She called at 620. So that's very interesting. That is interesting. It would be not good, not favorable for Katie. and Pat, if come to find out this whole incident that they're describing where Christian broke into the house and, you know, was in her face or yelling at her. If Amber's given a conflicting statement

as her best friend, not good for them because then it shows that if they're lying about this incident to build a self-defense claim for the shooting, if it was all on the up and up, why the need to lie? Yeah, or exaggerate at least. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So now, like I said, three very different stories about what happened that night. It's unclear which, if any, are accurate. What we do know is that when Christian went home later that evening, he didn't have Jaden with him. His mother, Dolly, asked where Jaden was and Christian just kind of smiled. That was enough for Dolly to know there'd been an issue with Katie so she didn't push it. She said Christian didn't seem particularly upset, certainly not like someone who had just ripped an air

conditioner out of a window. I do also want to note that according to police reports, the Griggs did know about the 911 call. Officers claimed that after the shooting, Tony told them that Christian had tried to pick Jaden up the night before, but there had been an incident that ended with a 9-1-1 call. Tony said his son was upset and disgruntled when he came home. But later, when Tony testified in court, he said Christian had never told him that. When asked why he had initiated that part of the police statement, Tony explained that he wasn't sure. All that he knew was that it was a great time of chaos or a time of great chaos.

So I think that if Katie called the police at 620 and they responded, now did the police see, an air conditioner ripped out of the door or the wall? Did police see damage where it had tried to get ripped out? Apparently, Katie's friend, Amber, is there. She says she knows Christian is trying to get in and hears him messing with the air conditioner, but does not see him remove it. Would Christian come back after that and actually remove it knowing the police had been called? And Katie doesn't call the police again that night, so you'd think that that would have been

something that she remembered if she called at 620 and said he ripped the air conditioning out of the window. And Amber doesn't remember that happening. I don't think that it actually happened. But I mean, him just trying to get inside is scary. It is scary. But by the way, we might not have all the pieces of the puzzle, but this would be very easy to investigate. You would go to Amber and say, hey, this is what your account of what happened. Were you present when Katie called 911? And if she says, oh, yeah, he tampered with the AC. He didn't come inside, but then she called 911. Now, if she says, no, I was there for the tampering of the AC, but then I left and then later, Katie called 911. That would be easier to understand that the whole incident where the AC was removed was after she left.

And listen. After Amber left, yeah. I won't even, I won't even lie to you guys. There is a bias there for me a little bit. I've dealt with a lot of domestic violence cases. And we've seen a lot of type of abusers out there. And, you know, some of them won't show completely who they are in the presence of other people. people, they'll wait till they leave. I'm not saying that's the key with Christian here,

but I am considering those factors as we go forward because what other people see, the side to them that they see of Christian may not accurately depict how he is when he's alone with Katie. The same goes for Dolly and Tony. What they're seeing of their son when he arrives at home may be a different version than who he is when he's with Katie. Conversely, Katie could be making a lot of it up. So as I sit here right now, I'm trying to stay in the middle, but also consider that both parties could be exaggerating their perspective on what happened here. And it's a tough thing to do when we're covering the case, but I'm trying to see all sides of it. I, too, am a little biased.

So I'm trying, yes, I'm trying very hard to actually see things through Christian side. So I don't favor the side that as a woman I'm most familiar with. I've talked to you about it. I've seen times when I was a police officer where there's a guy coaching a little league team and everybody. he loves him and he's such a cool guy and he's happy go lucky buying everyone hot dogs and all this stuff and then later that night three o'clock in the morning I'm showing up to his house because he's beating up his wife and he's fighting with us so you know people can pretend to be who they want in front of certain people especially their parents or people they have respect for that

they don't want to know what's going on behind closed doors yeah it's the public persona and also I think a lot of the times we don't want to tell our parents of course going on with somebody when they already told us that person was trouble. This is a tough one. This is a tough one. But we're going to do our best. All right. According to Katie and Pat, while Christian was at home with his parents on the night of

October 11th, after either telling them about the 911 call or not, they went to the Hartnett County Courthouse where Katie swore out warrants against Christian. The charges were for breaking and entering, damage to property, and domestic criminal trespass, all misdemeanors. Pat later testified that he believed these warrants, which were never served, meant a restraining order had also been taken out. But right after saying that, he added, quote, the magistrate judge also told us we needed to go to Raleigh, which is in a different county than Angier, the next morning, and do the same thing there. End quote, because that's where Christian resides,

right? That's where his residence legally is. Now, Pat said he didn't know why the judge told them that. It's unclear what the judge actually advised, but we know the instructions that Pat testified about didn't follow protocol. Residents can file domestic violence protection order. anywhere in the state, they do not have to go to multiple counties. So after swearing out the warrants, Katie and Pat returned to the Chishishol property. At some point that night, they exchanged texts. Katie wrote, quote, I found the address, we're going back, end quote. Pat replied, quote, great, do whatever it takes, shut him down, end quote.

When Pat was later asked about this, he said he thought the texts were in reference to Christian's address in Raleigh. Katie needed that address for the restraining order, but she hadn't been able to find it until she sent that text. This explanation raises questions since the warrants Katie had already taken out, the ones she took out in Angier County, listed Christian's Raleigh address. So this is very interesting, and I want to talk about what we just read. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll come back and discuss it. This show is sponsored by Liquid Ivy. You know that feeling when summer ends and suddenly your schedule whiplashes into overdrive between work, family, and trying to

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Yeah, added energy for this has been awesome, a game changer. Absolutely. So get focused and ditch the glitch with zero sugar and zero crash from Liquid IV. Tear, pour, live more. Go to Liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first order with code Crime Weekly at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code Crime Weekly. Crime Weekly's all one word at Liquidiv.com. Okay, so we have Katie and Pat going to court in Angier and getting, you know, basically getting charges, warrants against Christian, breaking and entering damaged property, domestic criminal trespass.

Which, by the way, is a little odd to me because any domestic crime automatically, if there's an offender, there's automatically a no contact order issued against for the victim, instantly. And I think in some states, they have to be served first. Yeah. Like, that person has to be served first. But they have to be informed maybe, yeah. Yes, they have to be. Even if they just show up again, yeah. You might be right.

Yeah. Yeah, I can tell you in our state, usually what will happen is if there's some type of complaint, we will try to reach out to the offender to let them know, hey, you come back by. There's an active complaint against you. You'll be arrested. It's not like an official having to be served with something. It could be an informed call where the officer documents it because we want to protect the victim, right? If there's an assault earlier in the evening, we don't want that perpetrator coming back.

that night and, you know, finishing off what they started. So we'll let them know right out that if you make contact with her or him or you come by the house, we're going to lock you up. Now, restraining orders are different, obviously. Sounds like police in Rhode Island take these things far more seriously than any police that I've ever encountered. I'm not saying they're perfect, but I know when I was, it was something we took seriously because I don't want to, and I've responded to calls before where we didn't get there

in time and one of them actually resulted in a murder. So that's something that I was only, I don't know, maybe three years on the job at the time. And that was something that stuck with me for the rest of my career. Yeah. Unfortunately, it is common. And that's how these things sometimes end. And just police don't usually take it that seriously. I'm sorry, they don't.

So, all right. So they go to the judge. They get these warrants for Christian. And then they exchanged text that night when they're home. And in the texts, Katie's saying, all right, I have, I found the address. We're going back. Now, this doesn't make sense if they're talking about it in the context of, okay, I have the address so now we can file these charges in Raleigh

because she's saying we're going back. Not to Raleigh. We're going back, as in back where. And then Pat's like, all right, put a stop to him for good, you know? And Pat is saying, well, that's because Katie needed to get Christian's address before we could formally file these charges in Raleigh. But the documentation shows that the charges they filed in Angier did have Christian's Raleigh address on them.

So is it possible that they were having a different kind of conversation that they tried to attribute to them talking about the warrants and getting Christians address? What do you think? Possibly, but I just don't know what else it would be. You know, there could be something that's lost in translation here where maybe the address listed wasn't the right address that they were looking for. I don't know. I don't have the documents in front of me. But let's just say for the sake of this conversation, it wasn't that. What other address could they be referring to based on what we know about what are they going?

back to? Yeah, where would they be going back to? I just don't know what it would be that would be bad on their part. What address would they have to go back to? Maybe it was a miscommunication. The fact that they even had to file it in two different places doesn't make sense. Well, they didn't technically. And I don't know if there's any evidence that the magistrate judge actually told them to do this

or if they're just saying that they were told to do them. Yeah, so if we don't believe what they're saying here, the question would be, what are they referring to? And I can't think of anything that would be nefarious in nature where they're, Is it to have a hit put out on him? Now, if something happened to Christian that wasn't right on their property and he just was walking around somewhere and was assaulted or killed by someone we don't know, you could make an argument that this was pertaining to that. But we know what happened the next day. So we're kind of reverse engineering it from there. And I don't see how this conversation would work negatively toward Pat and Katie.

So that night, Katie and Jaden stayed in her parents' house. The next morning, Katie's mother took Jaden shopping while Katie and Pat drove to the Wake County Courthouse in Raleigh to pursue the restraining order. Pat said that when they arrived, Katie went to speak to the judge on her own, only to find out that magistrates can't grant domestic violence protection orders on weekends. The magistrate told her to come back on Monday. Unbelievable. Yeah. We got to do an episode just on this. This is why people end up getting killed because of these technicalities.

It's ridiculous. I mean, why? Yeah, why? Why? That's the best question. Why? I mean, was the magistrate judge not there? Sorry, can't protect you today. Come back on Monday. Best of luck.

Only business days. Only business days. Unbelievable. I mean, maybe the magistrates aren't there on the weekends. I mean, magistrates are 24-7. We have magistrates come in on the weekends to arraign people who are in our jail cells and we're going to arraign them before we let them go. So they're available if need be.

Yes, so was the magistrate like, sorry, this is Saturdays I play Sims? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Ridiculous. However, back to the text message, the fact that they did go the following day down of the courthouse, I would argue that this aligns. To a different courthouse.

Katie said we're going back. But the fact that they're going back to a, it could be, I could interpret that as back to the courts, whether it's a different location or not. Maybe, maybe back to a judge, yeah. They're going back and they needed an address. Katie could probably come on. here and explain what that is? Well, they had his address. I don't know. Did they have the right address? Did they know that address was on there? Were they looking for more clear? I don't

know. As far as I can tell, the correct address was on the original charges filed in Angier. This would be a question I'd want to ask her. What did you mean by that? Yeah. So Katie and Pat arrived back at the Chisand Hall property around 10.30 a.m. Pat testified that as they drove by Katie's house, they noticed the air conditioner, which had previously been lying in the yard, was now sitting on the front steps with the cord wound around it. So Pat said he had a bad feeling that Christian had been back. So when they pulled into the Chisholin'all driveway, Pat told Katie to go inside while he looked around. And we know that Christian was back because he got there early that morning to try to pick up Jaden again and he said no one was home because this is where they were. So Pat says to Katie,

go inside. I'm going to check this out. He moved the air conditioner to another area and while he was doing that Christian pulled up. Pat said Christian stated. in the car at first, but was agitated and angry, demanding to see Katie. Pat told him he needed to leave. They had a restraining order against him. Christian got really angry, jumped out of the car, then threatened and pushed Pat. Katie came outside with her phone, and Pat told her to call 911. When Christian saw her, he ran towards her. Katie turned and went back into the house and Christian tried to get inside. At 10.51 a.m., both Katie and Pat called 911 separately. We talked about that. The contents of Katie's call has been sealed.

A records show she told the operator that she needed a deputy to respond to her parents' home. She said Christian was acting crazy and threatening them and that she had taken out warrants against him the night before. The call ended at 10.53 a.m. when the dispatcher told her a deputy would be sent over. During Pat's 911 call, he told the dispatcher that his daughter's estranged husband was on the property threatening him and Katie. He claimed there was a domestic violence restraining order in place, and when the dispatcher asked if there are any weapons involved, Pat replied, quote, no, not at this time, end quote. At 10.54 a.m., the dispatcher told Pat a deputy was on the way. When asked where Christian was, Pat said he was out in the yard. He's sitting on the front porch, and he described Christian as

hostile. The dispatcher could hear Christian in the background saying, you should let me talk to them. Pat responded, no, that's fine. I'll handle it. Pat remained on the phone. Meanwhile, at 1054 a.m., Christian called his father and said Pat was yelling at him while Katie hid inside. Tony said he was on the way to help defuse the situation. One minute later, at 10.55 a.m., Christian tried calling a divorce lawyer, but no one answered. Pat was still on the line with 911 when the dispatcher asked if he was in immediate danger. Pat said, quote, I think so, possibly, yes, I think so. End quote.

He explained that he had finally gotten back into the house. When asked what threats Christian had made, Pat said, Quote, to beat me up, he's just looking through the front window shouting at my daughter demanding to see his child, end quote. The windows Pat referred to are a set of double windows on the front of the home. If you're standing inside the living room, looking towards the front door, those windows are directly to the left. What happened over the next few minutes is only known to three people, Christian, Katie, and

Pat. And we only have Katie and Pat's versions. Here's what we know from their accounts. Pat's 911 call ended at 10.56 a.m. Just two seconds later, Katie dialed 911 again. Again. In this call, she told the operator that Christian had broken into the house. She was panicked, breathing heavily, and sounding like she was crying as she pleaded for someone to come help. She was told that two deputies were already on the way. At 10.57 a.m., just one minute after Katie called 911 to report that Christian had broken in. Pat called 911 and said he had shot Christian through the window while he was trying to get inside. The timing of this statement is important. At that very moment, Katie was still on the phone with a different dispatcher. In other words, she was on 911 when Pat fired the shots. Yet the dispatcher later testified that she never heard any gunfire during Katie's call,

despite the fact that she was supposedly hiding in the closet four feet away. On top of that, Katie herself never mentioned that Christian had been shot while she was on the phone with the 911 operator. So it wasn't like she was hiding in the closet and she heard the shots and she was like, oh my God, I just heard shots. You know, if you were concerned that Christian was going to hurt you or your father and you heard shots and you were in the closet, that you might think Christian fired the gun, my father's been shot, and you might think about saying something like that to the dispatcher, but that's not what happened. So there's a lot to unpack here, and I wanted to let you get that whole little paragraph out

before I jumped in here. But to go back a little bit, when the, on that first call, when the dispatcher asked, are you in immediate danger? And before Pat ever shot him, he says, I think so, possibly, that's a feather in his cap because he's already describing a situation where he feels that his life and his daughter's life are in jeopardy. So that's before the shooting, not after the fact, which is good, for him at least. So that's before the incident, not after the fact, which would be a good thing for Pat and Katie. Now, as far as these calls to go to this, this to me, it's a tight window and it's hard to completely understand. But one thing that I was thinking about from last week's episode that I failed to mention when we talked about the gunshots. Correct me if I'm wrong,

but the weapon used was a 22 caliber handgun or a 22 caliber rifle. Yes, it was a 22 caliber rifle. That is extremely important. And I missed it last week and I apologize because I do own a 22 caliber rifle. I own 40 calibers, 305s, 223s. I own them all. And I can tell you that a 22 caliber handgun almost sounds like a BB gun and it would be very easy for Katie not to hear that gun it would be very easy for the phone not to pick up those gunshots

because when we're thinking gunshots I'm assuming 90% of our audience thought the same thing that I was thinking it's something that would be very prevalent and you would hear it and it's just like you see in the movies and TV and yeah you would hear the gunshots not necessarily the case with a 22 caliber handgun so

is it possible that Katie was in fact on on the phone when the shooting occurred? Absolutely. It would also explain the two different phone calls because if Katie's in the closet not being completely aware

of what's going on outside of it, Pat might have taken the initiative to call immediately after the shooting because he doesn't know at that time Katie's on the phone in the closet. So again, just to kind of wrap this up, not hearing the gun, that is very possible

considering the caliber of weapon. So I was just looking it up because I wanted to hear what it sounds like, because apparently it is not the loudest of guns. So they're doing, they're going to shoot it right now, and I want to hear. Pretty loud. You just played it there. Yes, it depends on the environment.

What I'm telling you is it's not as deep as you would expect, and it's a high frequency. I don't consider myself a gun expert, but I'm pretty damn near close to it. I own a lot of guns. I build guns. I've been shooting guns since I was 20 years old. Yes, you would expect to hear it, but it wouldn't sound like a 40 caliber Glock or a 45 caliber sig sour. Anybody out there who owns guns is going to know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying we'd have to recreate the house.

We'd have to recreate the house. She was in a closet four feet away. Do you think that she would have not heard that at all? I would think she would have heard it. Yes, I do. I do. But I wasn't there. And I don't know the layout of the house.

I wasn't in that closet. We got to get into the specifics of insulation, drywall, all of these things. Was it exactly four feet? Was it six feet? Like all these little variables could change the outcome. And so I, as I'm sitting here, right now, hearing you tell the story, I would think she would have heard it. That's my opinion. However, I concede that it's possible based on the actual variables, she didn't hear it.

And also, she could have been six times, which could have been over a period of time or within a matter of two or three seconds. So they could have almost sounded simultaneous, right? So I would think she would have heard it. There's also just to play devil's advocate here, as soon as she ends that call within that unfortunate period of like a couple seconds, that's when the gunshots happen. And that's why Pat calls. Because just clarify for me here, Pat doesn't call 911 while Katie is still on the phone. Yes, he does. Okay. So those two calls, Katie's on the phone. Pat calls 911 while Katie is still on the phone. So to your point, no matter what, those gunshots happened while Katie was on the phone. Yes. If they happened at the time that Pat says they happened,

Yeah. So then that goes back to what we're talking about then. It's a matter of the specifics of this of this house, of the closet, of the firearm. Without, we'd have to recreate that scene. So as Pat's call continued, the dispatcher asked if someone could check on Christian to see if he was still breathing. Pat could be heard panting heavily into the phone. And after several seconds, he finally responded, he appears to be looking through the window, he appears to be. The dispatcher started to ask, which judge?

judge, Pat had spoken to the night before. But before she could even finish that question, Pat cut in and said Christian's father had just arrived and found his son. Pat told the dispatcher, quote, he's hostile too. Please hurry. The dispatcher told him that deputies would be there any second. Well, I mean, you would expect his father to be hostile. He's finding his kid on the porch. Yeah, his son's dead on the porch. Yeah, if he's not hostile, then he's going to be in a second. Completely understandable. And, man, the one thing I will say, what an unfortunate. fortunate set of circumstances where literally find your kid like seconds but no seconds are the difference here right if tony shows up 30 seconds earlier maybe he deescalates the situation

gets christian off the porch and none of this happens you think about it man just the and we just covered we're just talking about tray right earlier this week in crime weekly also in south carolina also in south carolina but this is north carolina but in the carolinas yeah but a situation where if cooler heads prevailed, maybe we're not sitting here covering this case. Yeah. Well, I mean, in that situation, you're talking about a bunch of teenagers. Yeah, that's a different circumstance for sure. And now you're talking about Pat over here, who's a grown-ass man and a reverend,

shooting somebody six times. Well, the amount of times is a question that I'm saving for later in this episode, because at this point, and we probably won't agree on it, I think the shooting is justified based on if we believe everything that's being described up to this point. I can clearly see an escalation of violence here. And we have examples, again, if all true, that Christian has shown a complete disregard for other people's property and is willing to break into a home to make a point. Now, what he's going to do once he's inside, that's up for debate. But as we've seen historically for many cases, if there is a domestic violence situation occurring, there will be that escalation where it starts off with just, you know, yelling and arguing at each other, then it's damage of property, then it's some threats.

And then it results in someone getting assaulted. And then if she forgives him then, it could result in her life. So I'm not going to just completely disregard that because Christian was shot. And I know if Tony or Dolly are listening to this, I want the truth. I don't have any skin in the game, but I got to be fair and call it how I see it. And I don't know if you necessarily agree with me, Stephanie, but that's not the point. We both have our own opinions. Yes, it's my life experience and, you know, what I've seen with myself, with friends, with family members, that, yeah, if somebody's doing this stuff, you don't really want to see if it's going to escalate.

You don't want to take that chance. However, the fact that Christian was shot twice in the front of his body and then four times in the back of his body lets me know that this wasn't a quick secession of shots, that there was some sort of movement after the first or the second shot, and that it's possible Christian was retreating from the house and that Pat continued to shoot. So if that's the case, that's overkill to me, okay? you have no threat now. Not only is the guy shot, but he's running away. So you've already called 911. They're already on the way. You know they're going to be there in a few minutes. Do you really need to kill someone just because you can, right? Because in this state, you stand your ground,

castle doctrine, you can shoot to kill. So you can do that. But just because you can, does that mean you should? Isn't it enough to injure him and wait until the police arrive? If he's moving away from the house, why do you have to keep going? Why do you have to take this person's life, the father of your grandchild? I don't know. I have a count to that. We're going to take a break. We'll be right back.

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That's weekly to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. Okay, so before the break, you were saying he's running away from the house. If he was, yes. Still shooting him. Here's my counter to that. Here's my defense to that.

If I'm the attorney for Pat, I'm going to say, Was he running away from the house? Because he was on the porch when he was being violent and he was found on the porch by his father. So it doesn't necessarily suggest that he was running away from the house. It wasn't like he was found on the front lawn. He was still on the porch. So it could have been as simple as after the first or second shot,

Christian turns his body and without Pat seeing what he's shooting at, he continues to shoot and therefore shoots him in the back. Now here's where I would agree with you. as a gun owner, if you're going to decide to use the gun to protect yourself or to defend someone else, you need to be in control of every round you fire, not only because you have to know when you need to stop, but also you want to be accountable for those shots to make sure that you don't hit someone else. For all Pat knows, if he's not seeing what he's shooting, what if Christian brought someone else with him? What if somebody else was in the car, his parent or something?

Or what if his wife and Jaden were coming back and pulling up the driveway and he didn't even see that, yeah. A million scenarios. You need to be responsible for those rounds. So if there's a blind down and Pat can only see that the window's being pushed in and he's firing rounds blind, to me that's a problem. That's a problem because in that case, I could make the argument, why do you got to fire him at the window? Just fire him in the air or fire him around the window to send a message that, hey, I have a gun. And if you come through that window, I am going to shoot you. So if he fired six rounds, whether they were in secession or over a period of like, I don't think it was more than 15, 20 seconds. I think it was boom, boom, boom, boom. And that,

why the need for the extra four shots? Why not fire one? See what happens. Fire a second one if needed, see what happens. Now, he's not a trained law enforcement officer, but in our shootings, we have to shoot until we stop the threat. So after you shoot, you assess the situation and decide if you have to engage again. He's not going to be held to the same standard, but I do think six shots is excessive regardless. If the intent is not to kill, but to deter, six shots is too much. And that's where I think Pat could be in trouble. Not the decision to shoot, but the decision to shoot as many times as he did. Now, here's my question. Let's say Christian did turn and was leaving the porch. Could Pat's lawyer technically argue? Yeah, he was turning and leaving the porch,

but we don't know if he was going back to his car to get a gun and come back. Yeah, that wouldn't be justified to shoot him at that point. I don't think so. I don't know. No, not at all. But incorrect me, you're the storyteller here. It sounds like there was a window dressing. There was a blind.

There was something in front of that window. Was Pat able to see Christian through the window the whole time? I think I remember him saying like he couldn't see very clearly when he was when he was talking to them. Maybe there was a curtain or something. Whatever it might be, if he doesn't have a clear line of sight, I still don't think he would have known that that Christian had turned his back. I don't. I'm not trying to defend him here, but that's why after each shot you need to assess

because I would assume after the first or second time Christian was hit, that's probably when he turned his body because he's like, oh, shit, I'm being shot. And I'm assuming with Christian not being here anymore that after being shot twice, Christian probably would have left the air to go get aid to try to get medical attention. Well, yeah, based on the location of his shots, I don't think he would have been that much of a threat, but how would Pat know? know the location of his shots if he was showing blind. He wouldn't.

He wouldn't. And that's, and there's the gray area here. Because as I'm sitting here right now, we're more than halfway through this episode, based on everything you've said to me, not to be redundant, but the escalation is there. The removal of the AC unit, the constant threats, the pushing of Pat. It seems like this is going to get worse before it gets better. And it's going to result in Pat's daughter being severely hurt or killed. As a father myself, and some of you may disagree.

with me, I'm not going to let that happen, not while I'm breathing. And that's the bottom line. Now, maybe I would have approached it differently where if I know Christian is not in possession of a gun, which that's a risk. We talk about Trey Wright, right? This is a military veteran who owns guns. Knows how to use him. Knows how to use him. Probably has one on him. Am I going to go out there and engage with him without a gun myself as an older man? Probably not. I'm at a disadvantage. And so I could sit here and act tough and say I would have went outside and engaged in some type of physical altercation, but now I may be at the disadvantage. And I could be the one getting shot. And now who's going to defend my daughter at that moment? This is a big risk.

Yeah. So these are the things that I'm thinking about. And you know what? I'm going to come right out and say it. There is a bias there for me. As a father of two daughters, I can't hide it. Based on what we know, it does seem like this is what happened. And in that case, the only problem I have with Pat at this point is the amount of times he shot, not the decision to shoot. Here's the problem with these cases for me. It's not, it's impossible because you would have to get into the head of the person who shot and, and have, hear their thoughts about whether or not they genuinely thought, even if Christian had gotten inside, would he have posed? a threat to their lives. I don't think based on previous interactions with him that this would

have been something Pat genuinely thought, but I don't know how he was feeling in the moment. Can I push back? Yeah, of course. Two seconds before, if he didn't know he was about to shoot Christian, the dispatcher asked him directly, do you feel you're an immediate danger? And his response was, I think so. If he didn't know he was going to shoot Christian, but on his previous 9th, 911 call, they asked, are there weapons involved? And he said, not yet. Well, I, okay, I'd have to hear that. See, to me, that's misleading because I took it differently.

No, not at the time. Not at this time. Like, there's about to be. Yeah, I got guns, mofo, and there's about to be. That's how I took it. When he said, not at this time, it was like, yeah, not in this second, but I'm actually, I'm actually loading my gun up as we speak, like kind of thing. Do we, is the 911 call public?

No, the transcript is, but Katie's 911 call. Ah, we need that 911 call because the way he says it, like text messages do this all the time, right? The tone used when he says this could make all the difference. So just in general, if a cop asked me or the dispatcher was like, are there weapons involved? I'd be like, is there a weapon in my hand? Is there a weapon in his hand? No, not. No, there's not. He doesn't know.

He can't see. Not yet, man. No, see, oh, my God. He said, no, not at this time. No, he said, no, not at this time. meaning he knew Christian didn't have a gun and he himself at that time in that moment didn't have a gun but it was like an anticipation like but there's about to be if there needs to be there will be I could also see it as is there any firearms involved no I'm not at this time like

yeah not at this time yeah yeah but also when you're on the other end of that phone there's a sense of urgency you want law enforcement to get there as fast as possible I know And this is a police officer saying this. If they say, hey, there's guns involved, they're going to get there faster. And so he might be hesitant about saying, no, there's not guns because now maybe it's not a code three call. Code three being lights and sirens, right? So now, yeah, he doesn't want them to be like, oh, there's no weapons. We're good.

We can take our time. But there could be. Get your asses here. I see I took it a different way. Not at this time. Oh, I could see that. Jesus. But I'm pulling my gun safe code right now and there's about to be.

That's how I took it. I can see that. Yeah, damn. But no, listen, you know, we're going to finish this episode. I'm going to try to get back to the middle here. But from what I've heard so far, especially I'm working off the assumption that when law enforcement is investigating the scene, there wouldn't have been time to kind of to make a crime scene, right? Because they wouldn't have known this was going to happen. So if they go over to Katie's house and the AC unit is on the porch and it's kind of folded up exactly the way they'd like they'd lean towards believing them because there's no way they would have set that AC up prior to this knowing that Christian was. going to show up, knowing that he was going to confront them, and knowing that they were going to shoot him through the window. Not true. If the night before, Amber's there, and she's like, yeah, Christian tried to, was like messing with the air conditioning. It was like, let me in, asking to be let in, but I didn't see him take the air conditioning out. And then Katie calls the police, and she's like, yeah, he tore the air conditioning unit out. They're going to send a deputy there to file a report. She's about to bust that air conditioning unit out of the window, so it's on the ground when the

police get there. I can't dispute it. To verify her story. It seems like an extreme. I mean, they're going and following these restraining orders. They just don't want him to be around. I don't think they, yeah, they don't want him to be around, but why? Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, we weren't there. Do they not want him to be around because he's violent and he's aggressive and he's showing alarming behavior? Or do they not want him to be around because they never really liked him to begin with?

And now that he's kind of not her, you know, they're getting divorced. They're having custody. It's almost like, let's see how little we can allow him to be present in our lives at this point. Equally possible. Yeah, I can't, I can't dispute it. I can't dispute it. It's a slippery slope for us because you want to believe victims, especially of domestic violence, because it's tough for them to get justice and it's tough for them to get protection. So when you have a father defending his daughter from someone who could have been the primary aggressor here. Domestic violence, Katie, at this point, has never alleged that Christians laid a hand on her. So. But domestic violence is damaging property. That is a form of domestic violence. Correct. But has he ever been violent with her? Has he ever done anything that would make her afraid he would hurt her or her child or is he just angry because he wants to see his daughter what's going on here you know because i also know that people

claim self-defense when the the other person's dead because that other person can't counter their self-defense claim so it's rough i'll tell you this if some if it's true that he broke into the house and was in her face inside the apartment or inside the house when he wasn't given permission to be there. I'm not giving him a second chance to do that because even though it didn't result anything bad the first time, that doesn't mean it's not going to happen the second time. But again, I'm qualifying by saying this is all from the perspective of Katie and Pat. That's why I think Amber's so important to the story. I would love to sit down and interview her to get her perspective on Christian and Katie and their relationship. And more specifically the time she was there. Yes. Was she

there when the 911 call was made. To your point, if Katie during that 911 call said, he pushed out the AC, and Amber is saying, I was here, I was here for that, and I was here for the call, and the AC was not pushed out, then my perspective on everything I've just said changes. Changes. 100%. Amber's the key to this case so far. That's a tough one.

Okay, so Christian's father, Tony arrives. And Pat's like, he's hostile too. you better get here quick. Tony later testified that when he arrived, Christian was lying face down on the front porch. His head was near the far corner away from the front door and the window he had allegedly tried to break into. So his head near the far corner,

away from the front door and away from the window, he had allegedly tried to break into. Tony noticed that the window was barely pushed open. The blinds and glass panes appeared undisturbed. He said there was no broken glass anywhere, which is an issue, I think. I agree with that. If you supposedly shot him through the window, like was the window open?

Okay, hold on. Let's keep going. There's more to this story for sure. Yeah, sheriff's deputies showed up not long after Tony. Two of them later testified about what they saw when they arrived. One said he noticed the front window caved in and that Tony was on the porch with Christian. He testified that Tony said something like, oh, Christian, what have you done now? A second deputy backed up that testimony, but neither of them ever wrote about Tony's alleged statement in their reports. They didn't bring it up until trial.

And when Tony was asked about it, he testified that he never said those words. This gets me every time. What do I always say? If it's not the report, it didn't happen. Yeah. And you have these two officers who probably know Pat because he's well known in the community. This is what I hate because it could be that, but it could also be because these bonehead cops didn't write something that was critical to the case at the time in the reports. Now Tony, understandably, defending his son is going to say, I never said that.

I never said it. Or these two local cops in this small town are aware of the chisand halls. And maybe, as we talked about before, the town in the community, it wasn't a huge fan of this interracial relationship, yeah. Yeah. And this is what happens. And you know what? Who am I to sit here and dispute it?

But you don't write it in the report. It didn't happen. And now you have these two officers both confirming that Tony said this. And yet their reasoning behind not including it in the report is going to come into question. And now, instead of it being about the evidence, now it's going to be about the connections of these officers to the chisand halls. And what do you think they meant when the window was caved in? Pushed in. Is it broken or caved in?

Like, was it pushed in? And when we talk about the window, it could be a window screen. It could be a lot of things. This is the problem without having crime scene photos. But I'm sure if we had access to them, it would be a lot more clear to us. But again, I guess if we're going down the road of what were the officers? there's motives and intentions here, are they lying about this too? Because now everything's in question.

Was the window pushed in at all? Because Tony said it wasn't, right? Caved in. Caved in. They didn't say pushed in. They said caved in, which I find a weird way to describe glass. Well, it could be a metal screen. That's what I'm saying.

Like, you know how it gets that like concave look to it? Oh, so like a mesh net screen. Yeah. Okay. All right. So as we know, Christian was rushed to the hospital where he was later pronounced dead and detectives were called to the Chisinawall property to begin their investigation. They learned about the 911 calls and spoke to both Pat and Katie separately, hoping to understand what it happened.

Detective David Hildbreath later testified about his conversation with Katie. She said the night before he had come to her house and tried to get inside, which led her to take out warrants. So now she's telling the cop he tried to get inside. When she filed the police report, she said he broke the AC unit out and got inside. Big difference. Mm-hmm. Big difference. Yep.

The next morning, she and Pat went to try and get a restraining order, but they were told they would have to come back. When they returned home, Christian showed up. According to Katie, threats were made. She went into the house. Pat came in shortly after. They locked the door, and then the window broke. Katie said she was scared, so she hid in the closet and called 911, and she claimed that while she was hiding, the shots were fired.

Now, remember, this is not what Pat said. Pat said when they got there, Christian wasn't there, but the air conditioning was on the front step, and he said, oh, I think Christian was here. Katie go inside, let me look around. And while he was looking around, that's when Christian came back. He pulled up and he pushed, allegedly pushed him. Yeah. And according to Pat, there were no threats happening because when he and Katie got home, he sent her inside before Christian ever came back. But then she did say she came back outside later. And then that's when Christian tried to talk to her, but then she went back inside. I don't remember Pat saying that there was any threats made at that point either. Other than, I mean, the physical pushing of it, what was said during that, was that, is that to be? be taken as a threat, potentially. Next, Hilled Breath interviewed Pat. Pat claimed that when he and Katie came home from the courthouse, Christian arrived soon

after that. Pat told Katie to go inside. While he approached Christian and told him he wasn't supposed to be there, Christian yelled at him and eventually Pat went back into the house. He said he locked the door and not long after, the window shattered. Pat said he ran to a closet where he kept three guns, a 22 rifle and two shotguns. He explained that the guns had originally been for hunting and home protection, though he had stopped hunting years earlier. He grabbed the 22 rifle, which he said wasn't fully loaded.

He wasn't even sure how many bullets were in it. When he returned to the living room, Pat said Christian was coming inside, and that's when he fired. Okay, so after giving these statements, both Katie and Pat were taken to the sheriff's office for formal interviews. It isn't clear what they told investigators there. What we do know is that afterward, both Pat and Katie were allowed to leave. Pat then hired criminal defense attorney Gerald Hayes, who had previously been law partners

with Harnett County District Attorney Vernon Stewart. So we kind of know where this is going, right? Pat's got a lawyer who used to be in practice with the current district attorney in Harnett County, their friends, their buddies. It's an old boys club. You know, people are going to kind of be on Pat's side, people in law enforcement, people in prosecution. We can see where this is going.

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay. I'm going to talk about something a little private because we're talking about skims right now. I just had all my carpets in the downstairs part of my house pulled up and flooring put in. So I had to take all my clothes and put them in bins and bags. My mom helped me. So I can't find any of my underwear. None of my underwear can I find.

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well before skim's underwear was honestly an afterthought for me i'd spend all my energy on the outfit that people could see a new dress a blazer a pair of jeans thinking that's what made me feel confident but i've learned the truth if what's underneath isn't right nothing feels right that's why i love skim's intimates the first time i tried their fits everybody lace boy shorts i realized underwear didn't have to feel bulky or sag halfway through the day these are unbelievably soft and lightweight like buttery soft they're so good and they actually stay in place plus the lace detail is subtle, but it makes me feel confident, even if no one else ever sees it. Skims has made me realize that the first thing I put on the morning sets the tone for the whole day.

Comfortable, flattering intimates make me feel more put together even before the clothes go on. So you should head over and check some of these out, order some, because I already have. I'm just waiting for them to come, and until then I have to wear some weird, less amazing underwear while I'm waiting. and honestly, I just don't feel the same. And we can't have that. We cannot have that. All right. Tell them how they can check Skims out for themselves.

Very simple. You can shop our favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you. You select podcasts in the survey. And be sure to select our show in the drop-down menu that follows. We would greatly appreciate it. Again, head on over to skims.com. All right.

We're back. In addition to questioning the chis and halls, detectives processed the scene. Starting with the front porch, they noted damage to the door frame around the lock, but none to the storm door. There was dirt and a broken flower pot on the porch, and the top pane of the front window nearest the door was shattered, while the bottom pain was still intact, though pushed open at the top. The chisand halls had casement windows, which are single panel that are hinged on one side and swing outward like a door. The Chisunhall windows were hinged in a way where the bottom window pane could be pulled open from the top. So right now if you're on YouTube, and I strongly recommend you mark this timestamp down and you go over to our YouTube channel and look at this photo right here at the around the one hour mark, maybe a little different after editing. But I'm not only going to describe the window that's open, which is the window in question, but I'm also going to describe the window next to it because I think the window next to it is equally as important. So if you're looking at this photo, you have these two windows right next to each other,

and the best way I could describe it is the hinge for this window is located at the bottom. Now, in many instances, you would see the window do this if you were trying to clean it, right? So if you wanted to clean the window, you could fold it down so you can clean the outside of the window from the inside. Now, from this image, I will say it looks like there's some type of shutter blind behind the window, maybe wood, maybe plastic. I can't tell the material, but we can't see that in this image. It looks like that's missing.

And potentially there's some type of screen in front of the window, which I also do not see. And I'm describing that because I'm comparing it to the window next to it. So if you look at the window to the right, which is completely intact, it looks like there's some type of mesh screen,

then the window, and then some type of window blind behind it. inside the house. A screen and, yes. So actually, these are the kinds of windows. I have some of them in my house. And I know that I like it because unlike the regular like windows that you slide up or down, there's no like bar in the middle.

So you kind of have a full pane of glass. It's an unobstructed view. And because of that, I mean, I feel like anybody would do this. You're going to have some sort of covering, right? Like a curtain or blinds, which I have. on the window inside the house so that people can't just walk by and see your entire house from the outside. So if we're looking at these windows and you're looking at the window in question and it hasn't been moved by law enforcement or by anybody else that was there, the window is

pretty pushed in. It's pretty pushed in and clearly a body could jump up on that window sill and gain access to the house. And now if we're to assume that that window blind was still attached from the inside, it may have covered that window as even the window was being folded in. I tend to believe that the window was not altered by Pat or Katie because, according to Pat, right after shooting, Christian, Tony showed up. So there would have been a matter of seconds for Pat to alter the crime scene in order to make it more believable. And there's no way that Pat would have known Tony was on his way. If, well, I mean, first of all, he might. because Christian was on the porch when he called.

So you think he would be listening to that even though he could have been listening? Okay. All right. Number two, if. This is a lot of what ifs. You agree with that, right? Yeah, but if the shots happened when Pat said they happened and somehow his daughter, Katie, four feet away in a closet, didn't hear the shots, then yes, you're right.

There wouldn't have been a ton of time to stage anything. But yeah, this is a lot of what ifs. It's kind of difficult, but, you know, somebody's dead here. And just a recap from me and the audience, was Christian still breathing when Tony arrived? Yes. So we know it was an extended period of time. We know just for the sake of this conversation that there's no world where Pat shoots Christian. They're on the porch for an hour.

Yeah, it was only six minutes between when Christian called his father and when his father got there. So we know a very small window to do these things. And without Tony in that phone call, we wouldn't have that. and the potential that this was something that was staged is much more likely. Or the potential window when it could have happened is larger. Yeah, when it could have happened, it could have happened hours before. But not only was Christian talking to Tony and completely fine at that point other than being upset. Yes.

But also by the time Tony arrived, Christian was still breathing. So all things that indicate whatever happened, whatever you want to believe happened in a very small window of time. And back to these windows. If that's the window, I think this is probably from an arrest. a news agency or something like that. Yeah, it looks like somebody telephoto lens. Yeah, a journalist probably took a picture. Yeah. You have to assume that the window is being left like that

because they're going to be taking crime scene photos, et cetera. And that's why I strongly recommend. Go over to YouTube, look at the photo, see it for yourself. Clearly, with the window being pushed in like that, I would believe the assumption is that he's going to come through that window after pushing it in. He's not just pushing it in to talk to you. We can talk to you through the door. I agree. So if you're inside the, the house, you have to assume the next move is, he's coming in. Now, we kind of skated over it, and I want to go back to it because it's important. And I said it would be a big part of this

story. Katie's now kind of changing it up a little bit and saying that Christian didn't come into the apartment, into the house. The night before, yes. The night before. Then my question is, how'd the AC get on the front porch? How'd that happen? Something's not aligning here. Either the report isn't being taken correctly. Either Katie's not telling the story correctly. Either she's being misinterpreted, or they staged the scene to look more significant when it was to paint Christian in a negative light. Whether they knew the shooting was going to happen or not, that's a different story. Yeah, I'm not saying they knew the shooting was going to happen, but I think the night before, according to Katie's friends' own statements, I think probably Katie, when she called the

police, she was like, well, I got to make it seem worse than him just like being outside my window being like, can I come in? Correct. They're trying to get a restraining order. Yeah, I got to make it seem like he tried to come in so I can get a restraining order. So let me remove this AC unit from the window. I agree with that, which is a problem because if they're capable of doing it there, they're capable of doing it here. Anywhere, yeah. So that is an issue as far as integrity and credibility. That's not a reliable witness. I also do want to say in Christian's defense, like, no, do I think you should go breaking into people's houses just because you want to see your kid? No, there's other ways to do this. But I don't think he was intending to hurt Katie or her father.

Because if he was, why would he tell his dad to come? If his dad's like, I'm on my way, I'll be right there. Why would Christian be like, yeah, please, you know, I need an ally here. Like, I need someone on my side. Did he say to come or did Tony say I'm coming? Well, I mean, Tony said he was coming. And then Christian was like, all right. And then they got off the phone.

He wasn't like, no, don't come. I got this because he's like, I'm about to kill these people. But at that point, Christian wasn't pushing the window in. He was talking to Tony. So you have to assume that when he got off the phone with Tony, that's when he decided to push the window in. So he's not, he could have went back to his car. and waited for his dad to arrive.

But, I mean, who knows what were Pat and Katie saying inside? Like, you're never going to see your kid again after this. We already went to the police yesterday. We got an restraining order. Good luck ever seeing your daughter again. Not good. I mean, holding someone's child from them maliciously and, like, kind of taunting them with it. If that's what was happening, I'm not saying it was, would definitely be triggering to someone.

Yep. Okay, so the police continued to look around. They said the curtains behind the glass were separated and pushed inward. Detectives found no bullet holes in the curtains, glass shutters, or window frame. They did, however, note broken glass inside the residence all the way to the back door. A table and the window screen were discovered in the bushes off to the side of the porch. The window, frame, and screen were tested for fingerprints, but none belonging to Christian were found. They were also tested for blood, and again, none was present, not on the window, not in the

window frame, or anywhere inside the house. In the living room, investigators recovered three shell casings clustered together behind a chair. Despite a thorough search of the house and yard, the other three spent casings were not found. All right, so let's talk about this quick. To me, that window screen I was describing on the window next to it, that makes sense. He removed the screen, threw it off to the side. With gloves on? Okay, the fingerprint thing. I've said it a million times on detective perspective and here. People think the absence of fingerprints mean the person didn't touch it. That's not the case. It's so hard. to get a fingerprint off of a window or off of any substrate that's not where they're not just

directly smudging their hands onto that substrate. He could have grabbed the window by the mesh itself and never even touched the framing and that would avoid any type of fingerprints being left. He could have grabbed it with his palms and not his fingertips. That would avoid any type of fingerprints being left. If you take anything from this fingerprint conversation here, take it from the guy who processed fingerprints for most 15 years and still does it from time to time because I enjoy doing it. I've taught my daughter how to do it. So you're saying the frame, but what about the window itself, which is glass? The window itself, that's a different issue. You're saying that there's no fingerprints on the window itself either? Mm-hmm. Then not the window, not the frame, not the

screen. Glass is awesome for fingerprints. So I would say that would be if he's if he's pushing on the glass itself, yes, but did he just punch the glass? Did he push the window frame? I will say, I'm not going to sit here and say that it wouldn't be possible on the window. It would. 100%. I've also seen cases where we've had a breaking and entering or burglary and we have the window where they gained entry. I go out there with my fingerprint dusting kit and I'm all excited and I'm like, we're about to get this guy. I'm about to solve this case based on a fingerprint. I know you love fingerprints, man. I love them. And honestly, I've been disheartened so many times because of either just rained and there's dust on the window or just something

messes with my print. And you think about how hard it is to get that print. You need the oils from the fingertips on the ridges of your fingertips to hit on that glass perfectly, not smudge it. I mean, even a partial print, though, something, you'd think, you know? You'd expect a partial smudge or something, but if you're sliding up the window or pushing on it, you could just make a streak. And that right there ruins your print. So just don't think because there's no fingerprints, it rules out the possibility that Christian pushed in the window. Again, we have to think in common sensical terms here. Christian's talking to his dad, Tony, six minutes prior, the window had not been pushed in. Tony arrived six minutes later, and the window

is now pushed in. So unless we believe that Pat shot him from inside the window before Christian never touched the window, then goes outside, runs out there, pushes the window in himself, runs back inside, calls 911, and then Tony shows up. That is a lot more difficult for me to believe. What about if he shot him while he was outside and then staged the scene? The ballistics would support that. He'd be shooting him from the door of the property. What about the three shell casings that were never found? That is a question I can't answer. Yeah, the shell casings are interesting. Yeah. I don't know where they would have gone. I know. I don't know where they would have gone either, Derek. But I have to keep reminding myself, this is a six minute window and you're like, oh, that's a lot of, no, it's not.

It's not. Six minutes and some of those minutes, he's on the phone. Yes. So we're talking maybe two to three minutes that he would have a chance to stage the scene. Very unlikely. Is it possible? Not saying this happened. You sound like me to this episode. I know. Is it possible? Not saying this happened. That the night before when they went and tried to get a restraining order and this this is and that, they were like, hey, this dude might come back. We might shoot him. And if so, we need to make it look like he tried to break into this house. Let's do this all the night before. I'm going to take a line from Brad Bradley. Aliens could have shot Christian too. Shout out Brad Bradley. Right?

Aliens could have shot them to. Aliens could have come down. Yeah, they could have done it, planted the shell casings. Yes, absolutely. Listen, I don't think that's, I'm just saying, it's possible, okay? That's all. I love the fact that you're exploring all scenarios. I'm trying to definitely, like, put any preconceived notions to the side.

We have a person who's dead here cannot tell his side of the story. Correct. Correct. So I'm trying to be very open-minded with that. And there are things. There are a lot of things that were not done correct. in the investigation at the scene. There was a lot of things that weren't done correctly,

and we're going to elaborate more on those next week, but yes. Can I just say that I love that you're doing this? I love that you see the direction that I'm going, and you're pushing back on the opposite, and it's not just an echo. I love it. And it's usually me on the other side. So this is...

I feel like we almost do that in a... Intentionally? Yeah. To piss each other off? Not even intentionally, just because, like, what kind of case investigation would this be? If we were both just like, yeah, that guy definitely shouldn't have been.

And then there, he should have definitely gotten shot. Like he, you know. I love it. I love the pushback. And I love the fact that you're taking the other side to it. It's hard for me. It's hard for me based on what we do know. It's hard based on your experience as well.

Right. And it's also, again, my bias is showing as a father wanting to protect my daughters. If she had a child with someone, I wouldn't care if he was black, white, purple, green, or blue. But if there was any sign that he could hurt my daughter or my grandchild, I would give up my life for that. I think a lot of you would agree with me. So if I'm present and this guy shows up and he's being confrontational or hostile towards my daughter or me

and I bring her inside my house and I lock my door behind me letting him know we don't want to talk to him and now he's pushing on my window trying to gain entry to my building there's going to be a problem now would I have shot him right there? Probably not but his perspective like you said

what Pat believed at the time if he believed that he and his daughter were in danger then that would justify I might not have felt that way. If he did, yes. But knowing you as I do, though, I also have to believe that you would be fair in this situation and talk to your daughter and be like, listen, like, at the end of the day, you do have a child together.

Beforehand. And if you did agree to let Christian see Jaden this weekend, it's really not right. You're not starting off your co-parenting journey by pulling that back and not letting him because it's going to cause an escalation. But two things can be true. believe that and maybe he didn't have that conversation maybe he did but in that moment there was a grown man who owns guns who clearly has suffered some traumatic situations overseas and now he's punching in my window what are you going to do i don't know what are you going to do i don't know

that's the million dollar question i would it would be incredibly difficult for me to shoot somebody six times that's all i can say i'll say this and we've talked about it before many of of you already know that I've been in a shooting as a police officer and I shot the individual four times and the only the only criticism of my shooting from the state police who investigated my shooting was that I waited too long he was only four feet away from me when I finally shot him and what I will tell you is this this person was not some his name was Selvin Gardado he was not this bad guy who was beating up people he had stabbed two people before I got there but up until that point he didn't have a criminal record. I would even sit here and tell you to this day,

I don't think he was a bad person. He just made a bad decision. But in that moment, it took me until he was only four feet away to finally shoot him. He had a knife in his hand. And some would argue I should have shot him much sooner. That's what state police said. Legally, I had a right to shoot him within 21 feet. So every person is different. There was a Marine behind me, police officer. He was looking at the situation and actually thought that because I was so young, I was going to freeze and I wouldn't pull the trigger. And he shot the guy from behind me and basically blew out my eardrum because he was in fear that I was going to get stabbed. So everybody is different. Everybody reacts to trauma differently. And so in that moment, depending on what Pat

was feeling, six shots might have been very quick. And I say that because I shot Selvin four times and I honestly, it felt like a millisecond when it happened. But I shot him until he stopped moving forward. And even when I shot him, he still was able to move toward me, but he was no longer a threat and I was able to assess that. But he had a knife in his hand. And I can tell you guys this, after shooting him four times, he still had that knife and hit the wall directly behind me. I had to move. So being in that situation personally, I've experienced that situation. at 23 years old, it changed me. I'll never be the same because of it. So as a father and as someone who's had to defend myself by using lethal force, it's something that I'm sensitive to,

for sure. Yeah, I really, I hope I just never have to be in that position because I don't know. It's the worst thing you could be in. Yeah. I was juggling with it that whole time. This is a much longer conversation, but there were moments where we were trying to talk Selvin down. And I was praying that he would just drop the knife because I was petrified. Yeah, but Christian didn't have a knife. He didn't have a gun as far as... There's no way of him knowing that. There's no way of Pat knowing that.

All right. We're going to take a quick break. I need one. I need one. Yeah, we'll be right back. I have to confess, I used to hate picking out wine. I'd stand in the grocery store aisle, staring at a wall of bottles with fancy labels, not really knowing what was good and what wasn't.

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It was a crisp white. And it was really one of those moments where you stop mid-sip and think, okay, this is something special. It's exciting because every box introduces me to wines I never would have found on my own. And I love knowing my money is going straight to supporting small winemakers. Naked wines has been around for over 15 years and they are backing more than 90 independent winemakers worldwide. I like trying wines from these independent winemakers that I would never try unless I was actually there in their state doing like a local wine tour. would never get to try some of these wines. And I feel like I'd be missing out on so many gems. So that's really a bonus for me. We love it, Naked Wines. Derek's going to tell you how you can check

them out for yourself and start your wine journey now. That's right. Now is the time to join the Naked Wines community. Head to Nakedwines.com slash Crime Weekly. Click enter voucher and put in our code, crime weekly for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just $39.99 with shipping included. That's $100 off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com slash crime weekly and use the code and password crime weekly for six bottles of wine for just $39.99. All right. We're back. So on the night of October 12th, investigators were done searching, so they turned the scene back over to the Chisina Hall family. Members of their church came by and worked on cleaning the porch and repairing the window.

Two days later, on October 14th, detectives obtained a warrant to search the outside of the Chisinaw home, even though the scene had already been cleaned and cleared out. So they used a metal detector to look for the three missing shell casings. Detectives also searched by hand, but all efforts came up empty. The casings were never located. That same day, W.R.A.L. erred a report about Christian's death. They spoke to one of Pat's friends who described Christian as a great,

guy and a member of the church family who had snapped and tried to break in the house. The friend said Christian threatened Pat, and he had no other recourse to do but what he did. It was in self-defense. The friend also mentioned that Katie had a restraining order against Christian. We know that that's not true. They did not have a restraining order yet. And the problem was, WRL did not confirm whether those statements were accurate, nor did they include any response from the Griggs family.

If they had, the Griggs would have pointed out that Katie did. did not have a restraining order, and Christian had been shot four times in the back, which didn't exactly scream self-defense. Agreed. Agreed. The Griggs would have also noted that the autopsy had not even been completed yet. In fact, the results of Christian's autopsy weren't released until months later in January of 2014. And those results showed that Christian had been unarmed when he was shot six times by Pat with a 22 rifle. He had no cuts or injuries from broken glass, further calling into question the claim that he had broken through the window. Christian had been shot once in the top of his left shoulder.

That bullet traveled downward and was not fatal. He had also been shot once in the abdomen, just above the belly button. That bullet traveled left to right, slightly downward. It too was not fatal. The other four shots were all to his back, and these obviously were fatal. The bullets entered in pairs, striking his lower to mid-back and traveling upward. fragments from two bullets were found in his spinal column, leaving him paralyzed. The wound pattern suggested that Christian was either lying face down or doubled over from his earlier wounds when he was shot in the back.

So I'm writing this down as you're doing it. So to me, what that tells me is that the bullets went in, the first two went in downward, which means they went in through the shoulder and down through his back, right? Or down through the front of his body, which means to me he was facing Pat and leaning forward. which would indicate that more than likely he was leaning inside the window. Now, as he shot twice, and it looks like, to make it more simple, it sounds like Pat was doing a double tap, firing two rounds, firing two rounds, firing two rounds. So he fires the first two rounds, he hits Christian. Christian's leaning in the window when that happens.

That's why the bullets are going in through his shoulder and down into his body. Now as Christian turns and faces away, he's still bent over, hunched over. And now he's facing away or turning away from Pat. And that's why those bullets are going in through his back and upward through his body. So his body's still bent over at the waist, but now he's turned around. On one hand, you could say that Pat shot him twice and was angry and wanted to make sure that he killed what he shot and continued to shoot Christian because he wanted to finish the job. He wanted to make sure that Christian never left that porch. And that's why he continued to shoot him.

The other scenario you're looking at here is those rounds, although they were double-taps, although they were two, two, and two, it could have been sequential in a matter of five to ten seconds, and Pat, as not a trained shooter, had tunnel vision, was looking at what he had here, and before he even stopped shooting that sixth round, it was as Christian was turning away, that Pat finally stopped. Depending on what you want to believe, that's up to you. We'll never truly know, but it looks like it, regardless of what you believe, this was in a matter of seconds that all these shots were fired, and it is possible that while Christian

was turning, Pat was continuing to fire because in his mind, Christian was still a threat. And he didn't even know if he hit him or not. He didn't know if he hit him. Yeah, like you don't know whether or not you hit someone when you first shoot him. Going back to my shooting, you may see where it potentially goes in, but it's not like the movies where there's these splashes of blood. It's not how it happens. Okay. And especially with a 22 caliber round. A 22 caliber round for anybody who doesn't know is like maybe the size of two or three grains of rice together.

Very small. Okay. Well, let's go back to October 2013 while the initial investigation was still underway. On October 15th, Pat voluntarily went to the sheriff's office to speak with investigators. He did not bring his attorney with him and later claimed he did this because he wanted to help. Pat said, quote, it's a terrible, terrible human travesty. I'm devastated. End quote.

In this interview. Pat said he remembered the fear that he felt when he saw Christian coming through the window, but after that, his memory became unclear. He couldn't recall anything beyond firing the first shot. He didn't remember which side of the windows Christian's body appeared in, though he thought it was the side closer to the door. He couldn't remember how Christian reacted when he was shot, or whether he kept coming towards Pat after the first round.

The detective pushed back and told Pat, quote, that statement you've been giving me is real vague. I need you to be honest with yourself. And if nothing else, pray for clearness, a clear head. You know it took place. It's just, it's buried. You can actually recollect what took place. It's just that because of the ordeal, you've buried it.

I need you to unbury it, end quote. The cop's like, I need you to pray for clarity now. Okay. Ask God to help you remember this because. Yeah, I don't know. It's not going to work. Yeah. Do you think the police officer just doesn't believe that he doesn't remember?

I don't know. I will say this is a feather in the cap of law enforcement. It's not just saying, oh, yeah, we believe Pat. You know, we're going with his story. That's the final verdict here. We're done. This is good. They're pushing back.

They're asking the tough questions. Yeah, I agree. Okay, Pat Ben said he remembered Christian's face and upper body hanging through the window with his feet still outside. But he couldn't explain how Christian ended up face down on the porch with his head turned away from the window. He also said he didn't remember calling 911 to report the shooting. This is hard to kind of swallow because it's like, if he was halfway through the window, how did he end up face down on the porch? And you don't remember calling 911 to say you should just shot somebody? So when asked directly why he shot Christian, Pat said, quote, I was convinced,

no doubt he was going to kill my daughter and me too maybe. It was an incredible rage that I've never seen. End quote. He also told detectives that as Christian came through the window, he heard him say, I'm going to kill you. Pat went on to say that Katie either grabbed for the rifle or wanted to, but didn't know how to use it. The detective asked him, quote, did Katie show shoot Christian?" And quote. Pat replied, no, no, she would have if she could have. So I was kind of wondering that.

Like, did they almost orchestrate these two 911 calls at the same time? Because maybe Katie did shoot Christian. But Pat was like, let's be on the phone at the same time. So when I call and say I shot him, you're on the phone with 911. So you have this built-in alibi with the police that at the time he was shot, it wasn't you. How could it have been? You were on the phone. can get behind that theory a lot more than the theory that none of this happened. I could see a

scenario where the reason we don't hear the shots on the phone is because they happened prior to Katie calling. Yes. And then Pat was like, get on the phone, call them, and then I'll call, well, you're still on the phone with them and say I shot him. But here's the problem. Katie's on the phone while Pat calls. And while all this is transpiring, Christian is also on the phone with Tony and he's still alive and not shot. So at what point would Katie have shot him earlier before the call if Christian called after Katie got on the phone with 911 to call Tony? So that's why these minutes matter.

Did Christian call Tony before Katie called 911? That's the question because in that scenario, this would work. If Christian called Tony and says what's going on and then there's like a two or three minute window as Tony's driving over, then Katie calls, that would be the gap when the shooting happened. And if that gap is present, then you are potentially looking at a scenario where Christian's coming in through the window, Katie grabs the gun, shoots Christian, Pat looks at her and says, this can't be you, it's got to be me, let me do it. I'm going to protect my daughter, go in the closet, call, I'm going to call a minute later,

I'm taking the blame for this, I'll go to my grave saying it. I believe that. That's possible. You believe that's possible, yeah. I believe that's definitely possible. It still doesn't mean the shooting's unjustified. It could just be a father protecting his daughter from being the primary suspect here. I mean, that's still not good, yeah.

But that's all contingent on the timeline of the phone calls. And maybe you already have that. But if Christian called Tony, before Katie got on the phone, it's possible. If Christian called Tony, while Katie's already on with 911, then it's not possible. Yes. Because then it's not a premeditated setup where Katie shoots him and then gets on the phone to give herself an alibi. You follow what I'm saying? Yeah. So that that has to be the case. Yeah. All right. Well, Pat described Katie as having lived in terror for years, calling her a prisoner of fear. He claimed he knew she had been abused, but didn't realize how bad it was. When detectives pressed him for details asking if there were ever broken bones or bruises, Pat admitted he hadn't seen any signs of physical abuse. The detective, asked just verbal abuse, and Pat answered, I don't know. She said it was cruelty and horror. Detectives noted this, but before they could look into it any further, they wanted to see the events of that morning played out in a reenactment. So that's what you were asking for

earlier. You said, we got to do a reenactment. Got to do it. Well, Pat agreed. And everyone went back to the Chisinaw home. He walked detectives through his most detailed version of events so far. But when it was over, detectives were left with even more questions. And that's where we're going to pick up in part three. And it's getting pretty heated now. Yeah. So as we wrap up this episode, a couple of things I want to point out. I went back to my notes from what you said earlier.

You can correct me if I'm wrong. It looks like Katie called 911 at 1051. Both Pat and Katie called 911. Both Pat and Katie. Christian didn't call Tony until 1054. Right. So that means there's no way Katie shot him. She's on the phone almost the entire time until Tony shows up.

Well, no. She hung up and called 911 again later. But hear me out, Katie's on the phone with 911. You told me earlier that Pat called 911 while Katie was still on the phone and said, I just shot him. And then while he's still on the phone, he says, oh, Tony just showed up and he's hostile as well. So there's no window for Katie to have shot him. So Katie calls at 1051. The call ended at 1053.

Right. Her second call came in. According to this W-A-R-L dot com story, her second calls at 10501. 58. And she says he broke in. That call ended at 11 a.m. And then, yes, her father calls. But you said he called while she was still on the phone. While she was still on the phone. Yeah. Because she would have heard the gunshots. You know what I mean? So, I mean, I guess if I want to be open to it,

there could have been like a 30 second window where she shoots him and then they say to each other, get in the closet, say you see what I'm saying? It's really difficult to have this happen. She would have to shoot him. Pat would have to immediately said, go in the closet, call back. You didn't do it. So I'm not going to sit here and say that it's not a scenario that could have happened.

I just don't see it. I just don't see. I think it's more than likely that Pat shot him. So speaking of Pat and working off that end, angle. I think a couple things can be true here. I think that the shooting itself could have been justified, but the motive behind it may not have been. Some of it might have been an underlying disgust for Christian, as you have alluded to, where from the jump, Pat didn't like Christian, didn't like them together, didn't like that they had a baby, maybe had been waiting

for this opportunity. And so when Christian allegedly broke into that window, that opened up an opportunity that Pat had been looking for. And there's also a possibility that Pat was trying to defuse a situation. Christian was trying to gain entry. And at that point, Pat, understanding that if Christian got inside the house, there may not be a way to defend him and his daughter. So before allowing that to happen, he made a decision to shoot. Here's what I will say.

And this is why I'm having a conundrum for this episode. Because if Pat had not shot Christian and Christian gained entry. I can't sit here and tell you that it wouldn't have gotten bad and that Pat wouldn't have been severely injured or Katie wouldn't have been injured or killed. And then I would have been sitting here going, guys, you have a right to defend yourself inside your home. Somebody starts breaking in through your window and you have a gun, use it. And so I'm torn. I'm extremely torn because I'm going off the stories of two people who are basically the only show in town. I don't have the opportunity to talk to Christian. And if he was here, whether it was true or not, I'm sure he would

have a different account of what happened. So when you said something earlier about intention, meaning Pat, that's what this all comes down to. What was his intention? Was he trying to kill a guy that he didn't like from the jump? Or was his intent to shoot Christian and prevent him from coming inside and hurting him or his daughter? We will never know the answer to that question.

Only Pat knows. But we still do have more to talk about as far as the investigation goes, as far as Katie and Pat's statements, how they change, how they differ, and we got to talk about the reenactment. So that's what we'll do next week. I'm looking forward to that because going into part three, my big question is, one, was the shooting justified? If it was, was the shooting excessive? All right. So thank you, everybody, for being here at this point. We want to know, hear from you. If you're watching on YouTube, put in the comments, what do you think so far? Are you going back and forth, like we both kind of are? I can't wait to hear the comments because I know we have,

especially after going to crime con and hearing from people over the past five years, we have a lot of victims of domestic violence who show up at our booth and talk about the struggles they went through and how we helped them through them. So I sit here and I am. I'm struggling with it because I'm trying to follow the evidence by also not talking down about someone who potentially was a victim of domestic violence and not necessarily in a physical form, but a verbal form over many years. We don't know. So I am trying to be as impartial as I can be without victim-blaming Christian and without discrediting what Katie and Pat might have been fearing at the moment when they decided to do what they did. It's a tough one. This is a really

difficult case. Thanks for choosing it. And we also have to keep in mind that the Christian before going overseas as a soldier could have been a very different person than the Christian who returned. Couldn't agree more. So this is complicated. Absolutely. And when you consider things like Tony potentially saying, Christian, what did you get yourself into? Even though he's denying that now. What have you done this time? I mean, even if he said that, I mean, it could just been like, man, it's always something with you kind of thing. Not like, oh, you know, I don't know. That's not a super damning statement to me. For me, the guns are not involved at this time is a more of a suspicious statement. And you really, you went in on that one. That's how I said. As soon as I heard it, I was like, oh, really? Oh, really, Pat. I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys think about this one. I hope as I'm like kind of reflecting over the episode, which we normally do, I feel like

I might have went a little hard on Christian. And again, that comes from a place as a father of two girls and also someone who has responded to many domestic violence calls. And you want to believe the victim. You want to believe the victim when they're calling for police because we know that it's a fact that law enforcement doesn't usually help victims of domestic violence. It takes someone getting seriously hurt or killed before they ever do anything, which pisses me off. And so you have a potential victim here, having her father defend her, and he could be in a lot of trouble here.

And I don't know this case, but I'm assuming there's an outcome to it. I can tell you as I sit here right now, I have not looked it up. So I'm very interested to see how this one plays out and whether Pat was charged or not, because I am 50-50 on this one. I really am. Yeah, I'm kind of in the same place. And, no, you're not. You know the ending. See, it doesn't matter if you know the ending because we still don't have Christian side of things.

That is true. That is fair. So even if we have an outcome, it doesn't mean it's the right one. Yeah. That's true. It's great point. Well, let us know what you guys think in the comments below. I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about this one.

Where do you fall as of part two? We'll be back for part three. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye, guys. Thank you.