Crime Weekly - S3 Ep358: BTK | Letters, Lies, and the Church of Death (Part 3)

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

In 1974, Wichita, Kansas was shaken by a series of brutal attacks inside family homes. Men, women, and children were bound, tortured, and killed by a predator who called himself BTK. For 17 years, he terrorized the community, claiming at least 10 victims and taunting police with disturbing letters that detailed his crimes. Then in 1991, the killings abruptly stopped, leaving law enforcement and the public to wonder if the killer had vanished forever. For more than a decade, there was silence. Then in 2004, BTK resurfaced with new messages, reigniting fear in Wichita. But that renewed need for attention would ultimately be his downfall, and by the following year, detectives had identified the killer as Dennis Rader, a father of two, a Scout leader, and a trusted member of his church council. Rader was the last person anyone suspected of being a sexual sadist serial killer, but once investigators began putting all the puzzle pieces together, it became clear that Rader’s family-man persona was just a mask covering the monster beneath. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. https://www.HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 27% off sitewide now! Select our podcast after checkout and let them know we sent you! 2. https://www.SKIMS.com - Shop your favorites at SKIMS.com and select our podcast after you order! 3. https://www.SimpliSafe.com/Crimeweekly - Save 60% on a SimpliSafe home security system today! 4. https://www.HungryRoot.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 40% off your first box, plus a FREE item of your choice in every box FOR LIFE! 5. https://www.FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF for 50% off your first box and FREE breakfast for a year!

Hello, everybody, welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasar. All right. So today we are diving into part three of Dennis Raider, the series. I will give you, as usual, a little synapsis of what we've already talked about. and then we will dive into the new stuff. But first, I want to talk about something really quick.

So I do want to address and take a minute to clarify something that I said during our BTK discussion last week. We were talking about, you know, whether Dennis Rader was mentally ill in the way we typically think of that term. And I said, I don't believe so. I think if anything, and this hasn't been proven. it was just a speculation, if anything, somebody like Dennis Rader would have a personality disorder like narcissistic or antisocial personality disorder. And I do want to be clear. I think that I

misspoke in a way that I didn't intend to because when I said that personality disorders can't be treated or cured, I wasn't really speaking about your average personality disorder. Like, OCD or borderline personality disorder, things like that. I was thinking of it in the context of Dennis Rader. I was thinking of it in the context of, you know, somebody whose personality disorder focuses on, you know, control, manipulation, a lack of accountability and really not having any self-awareness. So my intention was never to stigmatize anyone dealing with personality disorder. I've talked about borderline personality disorder in many of my own videos on my channel. I was specifically speaking about people like Rader, individuals who are deeply dangerous, unwilling to take responsibility,

and they use their pathology to harm others and then to make excuses for the reason they do it. So somebody with, for instance, narcissistic personality disorder, one of the big trademarks of that disorder is nothing's ever their fault. So you can't really. manage or treat something or someone when they are unwilling to acknowledge that they're the problem and they have an issue. And with those specific personality disorders, the ones that are dangerous, the ones that, like I said, sort of center around manipulation, control, knowingly hurting other people and not having an issue with that and still constantly thinking it's everybody else's fault and not yours and finding a way to blame everything and never you.

People like that don't seek help. People like that don't go into therapy. And if they do go into therapy, it's basically so they can manipulate their therapist. People like that don't want to be better because they don't think they are the problem or that they have a problem. And so I didn't mean to speak about it in a blanket way. I meant more in this sort of person with this sort of personality disorder. I really don't want anybody to think that I was coming after anybody. I've always been very open about borderline personality disorder, and I don't think that it's something anybody should be ashamed of or made to feel bad about. I also recognize that certain personality disorders can be managed and that people who put in the work absolutely

deserve recognition for that. My goal is always to discuss these cases accurately and compassionately and I don't want to offend or hurt anybody's feelings. So I'm sorry with the way I worded it if it hurt anyone's feelings or made anyone feel called out. We're not comparing you to BTK. That's that's the moral of the story, you know. Overall, we record these episodes sometimes three, four hours. You might see two hours of it. It is possible that in the moment of speaking, I definitely do it more than you where I'm speaking so fast. I'm thinking faster than I'm speaking. and then I listen to it back and I have to cut it out of the episode

because in my head it made sense but when I hear it back it doesn't you don't get everything perfect I appreciate it all the comments everyone was for the most part very respectful a lot of you guys are going through your own things

and you're kind enough to share your experiences some of you even said you're going through treatment as it right now so we're pulling for all of you we want everyone to improve on their lives including ourselves and so again not comparing you to BTK he's a different beast and yeah well said

on with the episode we got a lot more to cover right let's dive in all right so after the brutal murders of the otero family on january 15th in 1974 dennis raider went home burned his notes and waited for the police to show up but when no one came his fear turned into confidence and within weeks he was prowling again his next target was 21 year old kathy bright who fought for her life when raider attacked her and her brother kevin inside her home in april kevin survived the assault which was crazy because BTK shot him multiple times. But despite his eyewitness account, police still didn't know who the killer was. They also did not think that the Bright and Otero cases were connected as they had completely different causes of death.

So months later in October, several men falsely confessed to the Otero murders. And when Raider found out, he just couldn't take it. He wrote a letter to the police admitting to the killings, describing the scene in disturbing detail. that he could prove it was him and he was there and he wasn't just one of these looky-lose trying to get credit for his hard work. And then he signed it with a name that would haunt Wichita and the world for decades. B.T.K. So that's where we left off. And the unsolved murders of the Otero family and Kathy Bright left Wichita residents terrified. Families began installing home security systems in record numbers, prompting companies like ADT to hire more technicians to meet demand.

And do you know who needed a job? Dennis Rader needed a job. So he applied to ADT. And in November of 1974, just over six months after Kathy's murder, he was hired to install alarms in homes and businesses. Raider was beyond excited for the job. It gave him the chance to feed off people's fear while gaining access to their most private spaces,

their bedrooms, their closets, their drawers. ADT wasn't just a job for Dennis Rader. It was the perfect cover for. a predator hiding in plain sight. This is a nightmare fuel. I know. To think that the person who you're confiding in as far as the best measures to take for the security system, pointing out all the vulnerabilities you currently have and how you can mask and cover

some of them, but you still may have others, although the quote unquote criminal won't know them from the outside looking in to think that Dennis Raider is installing your system. Wow. Okay, BTK is harassing Wichita. As a result, ADT is like, we need to hire more people because more people on home security systems and they hire BTK. Yeah, I mean, and no fault of them.

What are you going to do? No, of course not. His backgrounds perfectly clean. I know. But this is like, but you can't make it up. It's insane. A security system consultant. It's like he caused the demand for more ADT technicians.

He got the job and then used that job to gain entry to potential victim. victims homes. Yeah, I mean, don't want to give any credit because there's no credit deserved here. But if you're trying to select a job where it would give you access to information, you wouldn't get anywhere else, like how to get into the home undetected, this is literally the perfect job for that. It's unbelievable. I mean, sometimes these technicians would even program their security code in for them. That's what they used to do. Now you don't do that. You do it yourself because we have apps and we do it all on our phone. But back then, the technicians would be like, hey, what do you want to use for security code?

And they would program it in for them. Yeah. That is the extreme to it. I mean, even I'm thinking about all the things now that you have to consider where, yes, he would know the vulnerabilities for your specific system. He would also know the limitations of the system itself. blind spots, what it can do, what it can't do, what it would pick up, what it wouldn't pick up.

Yeah, just an unlimited amount of information that would undoubtedly give someone like a Dennis Raider the ability to plan, scheme, and carry out a plan that would allow them to get into your home. It's just, it's terrifying. It's really scary. It's terrifying. You really can't trust anyone.

And I don't want to go on a tangent here because we got a long episode, but people get people give me the eye roll because i'm very cautious about who i led into my home and i always get oh god derrick you're not a cop anymore you know you this you don't have to worry about those things anymore you're not undercover and i'm like dude you don't get it like the people that you are the least concerned about are the ones that are most likely to hurt you like anybody from from a Verizon tech to the door dasher it could be anybody you don't know who's delivering your food or who's putting in your cable or and again i'm not villainizing any of these jobs but the background checks if this person hasn't been caught doing anything as of yet to this

extreme they're going to get hired and they're going to have access to your house that other people otherwise wouldn't have and your guard is down as well they walk up to your door they got a bag of food that you ordered you know you may be more willing to let them come inside if it's raining and while you you know you're tipping them or whatever although most of it's done digitally we are just becoming so complacent in the society because of convenience and it's scary man and i just refuse to be that person because yeah if people really want you i always say it they're going to get you they're going to get you but there's a lot of things we can all do to protect ourselves a little better.

And the question you may be asking is, okay, Derek, what should I do? Not allow people into my home? No, that's what's so scary here is because even though I'm saying all this. Yes, don't, yes, I don't allow people into your home. I'm sorry. But there are certain things where you can't avoid it. And you just got to be careful. What I would say is when they're in there, keep the conversations limited.

Don't be disrespectful. But if they're asking a lot of questions about your personal life, about your scheduling about your habits, don't answer it. If it doesn't pertain to the actual job they're doing, like installing your modem or installing the system, give them as little information as possible. Don't give them any codes. Don't tell them what you're going to be using it for, when you're going to activate it, when you're not. Put the system in. I'll take care of the rest. Thank you. Have a good day. Doesn't mean you have to be rude, but if they are worth their weight in their job, they're going to understand why you're being protective. Yeah, it's not, it's not a safe.

and we have so much technology. So I worry about, okay, I let somebody in to use my bathroom. They put a camera on my bathroom. I would have no idea that they did that. How would I know? They're in my bathroom for five minutes. I can't see them. I assume they're using the bathroom.

They could be hiding a camera in there. I don't know. And this was not planned. Honestly, not planned. I just had to remind myself, but we actually have an ad tonight for an alarm system simply safe. One of the benefits is simply safe, you can install it yourself. You do everything yourself.

So, again, totally cool. coincidental that they're in this week. But what a great time to have them come up. I agree. I agree. So while working at ADT, Raider continued attending Wichita State University at night and maintaining the appearance of a dedicated husband and active church member. He loved the feeling of blending in, of being an absolute monster in secret while seeming like a normal guy everywhere else. And for the time being, he didn't feel an immediate urge to kill again because he's getting off on this hole like, ha ha, I'm hiding in plain sight. I'm living a double life. Nobody knows. There's the thrill of that, the dopamine spike of that. Now, the murders of

the Oteros and Kathy had satisfied Dennis Rader for a while. Instead, he focused his bad energy on stalking women and breaking into homes to steal small items while also visiting his hidey holes and indulging in fantasies about the women he watched and the ones he had already killed. Now, in late 1974, Raider found out he was going to be a father. And this was actually something he was happy about. He later told Dr. Catherine Ramsland, who wrote confession of a serial killer based on their conversations, quote, the excitement of knowing that your wife is pregnant. How can that not be a sign you are normal or have normal feelings? End quote. That's a weird take. Like, getting somebody pregnant doesn't mean you're normal.

It's a biologically normal thing to happen, I suppose, but it has nothing to do with what's going on in your brain. Of course, you know, yeah, your sperm works. That does not mean. Yeah, it doesn't mean you're normal. And we all know plenty of people who are not normal. And shouldn't be having kids. And should not be having kids.

and Dennis Raider is one of them. Although I will say Kerry is amazing. I've spoken to her numerous times. I've gotten a chance to meet with her. Glad she's here. One of the few good things Dennis Raider did. If she could have gone back, you know, and been like, maybe I don't want my dad to be BTK.

I think she would, yeah, I think she would opt for that. Yeah, she probably opt out of that life. I just, I think once again, though, this is him looking for, having his magical thinking, looking for signs of, hey, you should go to this house because the address has the special number. The universe is telling you, oh, you got your wife pregnant. That's a sign that you're doing something right, that this is absolutely normal for you. He's trying to find completely benign things that are happening throughout life to show that he's on the right path and he's doing the right thing.

And it's absolutely bananas. So Dennis Rader's wife, Paula, gave birth to a son, Brian, in the summer of 1975. Now, Paula left her job to stay home with their baby, and Rader continued working at ADT. Between his job, school, and fatherhood, he stayed busy. And that structure did help him keep the darker thoughts under control for a time. But by late 1976, Rader began to feel restless again. Paula was still home full time. And this meant there's always somebody around, you know.

She's not going out to work. She's not gone for extended periods of time. there's not a lot of privacy for Dennis Raider to engage in his secret activities, and the burglaries and stalking no longer gave him the same rush. And it's interesting that, you know, Paula's home, they have a baby. Dennis Raiders working for ADT during the day, he's going to school at night. He's still finding time to prowl around the neighborhood, stalking people and breaking into people's houses. He must never have been home at this point because I don't know where you have the time for all of that. He just must have.

been a very absent figure at the Raider household. But he's not getting a thrill anymore from it, right? Just like a drug user, that initial hit is not doing the same thing and you need to up your dose. The black hat for Dennis Raider was taking over and it was telling him to kill again. On March 17th, 1977, Dennis Raider set out with one goal to kill someone that day. And he had never done this before. In the past, he chose his victims very carefully. He studied them and their routines and their schedules for weeks, but this time, he didn't want to wait. It was an urgent sort of this has to happen now feeling. So he decided to find whoever fit the opportunity. While driving around Wichita, he noticed a young boy, who he later learned was six-year-old Steve Ralford,

walking home from a nearby Dillon's grocery store. Rader figured that Steve's mother had to be inside a nearby home waiting for him, so he got out of his car, carrying a blue briefcase that held his hit kit, cord, tape, garbage bags, and a gun. And using a ruse, he pulled out a photo of Paula and their son from his wallet. He approached little Steve and asked if he had seen his wife and son. Steve, of course, said no. Then he walked to his house. Now, as a side note, Steve had walked to the store to get some stuff for his mom. His mom was sick. And she'd actually called a head to the Dillon store and had a staff member meet Steve outside. And the staff member helped him grab the items and everything and bag them up and

take care of everything. So Steve leaves the Dillans. He's got the stuff for his mom. He's walking home. Raider interrupts his walk to sort of be like, hey, do you know where my wife and kid are? This six-year-old kid's like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. He continues walking home. Now Dennis Rader knew where Steve lived. Not good. Not good at all. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. This episode of Crime Weekly is brought to by Helix Sleep, which if you've listened to us for a while, you already know we're both huge fans of Helix Sleep. Yeah, we've been using Helix mattresses for years now.

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your own comfort of your own home. You have to do a weird mattress store thing and has a lifetime warranty. That's right. And right now is the perfect time to upgrade because Helix's Black Friday and Cyber Monday sale is going on right now. Yep. For a limited time, Helix is offering 27% off sitewide exclusively for Crime Weekly listeners. Just go to helixleep.com slash crime weekly. That's helixleep.com slash crime weekly for 27% off site wide. And don't forget to enter our show name in the post-purchase survey so that they know that we sent you. That's right. Treat yourself to better sleep this holiday season because trust me, you deserve it. So then he walked up to the door and knocked. Now, Steve and his eight-year-old brother,

Jr. opened the door. And Rader walked right in with his 357 Magnum and quickly found their four-year-old sister, Stephanie, in the living room. Their mother, 25-year-old Shirley Vianne Relford, came out to see what was happening. Rader told her that he had a problem with sexual fantasies and was going to tie her up. He put on latex gloves, pulled down the blinds, and told Shirley he was going to tie up the kids first, assuring her they would be fine if she cooperated. She was obviously terrified and upset, and Rader explained to her that he had done this before. But when he tried to tie up one of the boys, he began crying.

And the other children became hysterical. Rader got frustrated and decided to lock them in Shirley's onsuit bathroom instead. So an unsweet bathroom is like the bathroom attached to the master bedroom, usually. And so Tennis Rader gets all these kids together and puts them in the bathroom and locks them in. And he put toys and blankets inside with them in the hopes that it would keep them distracted, which, I mean, this is exactly why this guy should not have kids. First of all, they're not animals. You can't just put them in a pen with some chew toys and go to work for the day.

Second of all, you're a man that just walked into their house with a gun. You're talking about tying up their mother, and you think that they're going to be distracted by some toys and blankets while they're locked in a bathroom and their mother's in danger. Like, do not understand how people work. The kids aren't going to be distracted. They're worried about their mother, you idiot. I personally just think he doesn't really care that much of the distracted. He just needs a little bit of time.

I'm not trying to be crass here. I just think he's not really trying to entertain them. It's like, hey, give me a couple minutes. That's all I need. Yeah, but I mean, what if the kids, one of the kids gets out the window or opens the window in the bathroom, starts screaming for help, you know? Did he legitimately, he legitimately thought if he put some toys in there? He's such a sick, you know what? He's like, they're not going to leave their mom behind.

It's a risk, but that might be the psychology behind it. Well, Shirley told her kids to do whatever he said. She's obviously trying to do what a lot of people do in the situation, keep their attacker happy and calm, hoping that there's some way out of this or hoping that he's there to do exactly what he says he's going to do and that her children will be fine if everybody cooperates. So Shirley said, you know, do whatever this guy says. And Raider tied the bathroom door shut, but of course the children kept screaming. Shirley then helped him push her bed against the door to block it. Then he forced her to remove her clothes and he began tying her up. But as he did this, she threw up.

She vomited. Rader gave her a glass of water, not out of concern, but to gain control. He wanted her to trust him long enough for him to kill her. So he's trying to play nice. I'm just here. I have sexual fantasies. I have bad sexual fantasies and I just have to, you know, release them. and I've done this before, don't worry about it.

But at the same time, if you're Shirley, you're like, is this BTK, right? Because you're aware of what's happening. Everybody in Wichita is aware of what's happening at this point. And so that's going to be incredibly stressful. How much trust is he going to be able to gain when there's a guy out there doing exactly what he's doing to her now? And she knows how those cases ended. So Raider then used electrical tape to bind Shirley's hands behind her back and tied her legs to the bedpost with parachute cord.

Then he looped the same cord around her neck, put a nightgown over her head, and placed a plastic bag over it. He then strangled her to death as her children banged on the bathroom door, screaming for him to stop. Then the phone rang unexpectedly, and he panicked. Raider gathered up his hit kit items and stuffed them into his briefcase along with a pair of Shirley's underwear, which he would then, you know, later put into one of his Heidi holes, and then he left the house. It's just so upsetting to think about this, you know, because I know that there was a big part of Shirley that was like, I'm not making it out of this. But I hope that my kids find a way out of this, maybe while they're in the bathroom, or I hope that at least after he does what he's going to do to me, he lets them live and leaves them alone. Yeah, it's an interesting scenario,

and I was actually thinking about it as you were describing this situation because, you know, it's not going to end well. And I understand that I'm not that gender always plays a role, but I'm a male. I'm 200 plus pounds. I have some training when it comes to fighting. Different scenario.

I've also got a lot of experience and know how these things usually end. but I also know that 80 to 90% of our audience are women, including you, Stephanie. And I would love to hear your thoughts, not only you, Stephanie, but all of you, because this is a lose-lose. I think we can all agree on that. My first thought, again, coming from my position is, I'm going to fight this person to the death.

Gun or no gun. I'm going to try to get the gun. I'm going to probably take a couple shots. I'm probably going to die. but my only goal is to get the gun and get one or two shots off and kill him knowing that my kids will live also refusing to lay there

and just succumb to whatever he wants. That's my first thought because my experience tells me that first best case scenario he's going to kill me worst case scenario he's going to kill me and then nobody's going to be there to defend my children and they're going to get it

even worse than I got it. That's my first thought. But I'm interested to hear what you guys think because I talk about carjacking and what we should do there don't go to the secondary location. My first thought is to tell you guys and to advise you is in that situation,

fight. Fight. And I can't promise you it's going to work out well but fight. Give yourself a chance and maybe you fight long enough where you do survive and because of your defense

they have no choice but to leave because now they've been injured or now there's a rutcus and people can hear it in a surrounding neighborhood or apartment. And that's my first thought, but what do you think, Stephanie? And as well, pause the video, pause the audio, while Stephanie speaking about it, tell me what you would do.

I'm actually interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this. So I think it makes perfect sense that as a man from your lived experience, that's what you would do. I agree. I'm not speaking from a way that maybe you would see it. How could you? But I will, and I will say, like, I've often thought about what I would do in these scenarios because my brain's an apocalypse machine. I often think about it, and I'd like to think I would fight back. But I also like to think if I was someone like Aaron Brockovich, I would go up against this huge corporation and have them threatening me in my kids' lives and I'd still fight and go for it when in reality, I probably wouldn't.

I would probably back down. At least you're honest. In real life, right? We all want to think that we're capable. I think as a woman, knowing that any man, even one who, not 200 pounds and trained with firearms and trained in fighting. Any man is still going to be stronger than me. That's just biological, physical. It is what it is, unfortunately. Yeah. So what are my odds of it being successful if I fight back? Do I do I have better odds

doing the thing that a lot of women in captivity situations do, which is try to, I guess, appeal to them? Yeah. Yeah, appease their captor, hoping for some sort of connection like oh I have I have kids you have kids you know like that's what women have to do we have to use our emotional and our in our brain we can't use our brawn because we don't really have that right and on top of that surely sick so she's probably not feeling great you'd have to do you have kids I have kids or what's your what's your favorite TV show I like that TV show too try to humanize yourself and with a lot of men who are who are doing this in the situation, that sometimes almost like turns them off because they don't want to see women as

these women that they're attacking as humans. They want the control. They don't want, they don't want to relate to relate to you as a human. Then maybe that's a good, a good option. But with someone like Dennis Raider and Shirley would have no way of knowing this, there was no reasoning with him. There was no relating to him. This man's an absolute psychopath. There's not a slice of empathy in him to to try to appeal to. Yeah, well, I would say this for everybody, especially if you're someone who's active, nothing wrong with instead of, if you go to the gym three times a week, if you're fortunate enough to be able to do that, maybe take away one of those days, take a self-defense course once a week. It's going to be good for your health and it'll give

you a little bit of an understanding of, hey, because they're usually specific to these types of scenarios where someone has a gun or a knife, you take enough classes. You not only may learn a thing or two, but you start to develop a confidence that even if the, the attacker is bigger than you, stronger than you, you are more technical. So you, because of this inexperience, because a lot of these clowns and these cowards are not trained like a Dennis Raider, and most of you would be able to beat them up if you had a little bit of training. So there's nothing wrong with doing to take a jihitsu class, take some MMA, do something, switch up the body a little bit, do some different activities. And you might learn a few things that could

help you in a situation similar to this or even whether you're just walking to your car or whatever, hey, a quick jab to the throat or a specific pressure point, it could save your life. So lessons always to be learned. The balls is always a good place. Hey, you know what? No training for that. Let's just be honest here. If you do have a guy and you're going to go for it, I know you're being serious as well.

I'm absolutely being serious, yeah. Kick him or knee him as hard as you can in the nuts because there's not a guy in this world who isn't going to be susceptible to that type of pain. And that instant reaction, if they don't expect it, can give you enough time to flee. Now, in this particular scenario, you can't flee. That's why I asked this question because... You could not, but maybe she kicks him in the balls. She gets a window open, starts screaming for help.

Or goes for the gun at that point. Yeah, but the point is, how do we know if Shirley even knows how to use a gun? How do we know she even knows how to take the safety off? You know, now this gun, if you don't know how to use it, is pretty ineffectual. That's another thing that I would advise, and I've talked to you about this and you have, but even with my own mother. purchased a gun for my mother a few years ago. She was against him. Now she has one.

I've taught her how to shoot it. Why? I hope she never has to take it out of the safe. But if she is in a scenario where she does, now she has the confidence that she not only would be able to pull the trigger, but also do it in a way where she would be effective. So you hope you never need this type of training, whether it's self-defense classes or firearms training,

but it doesn't hurt to have it. I completely agree with you. And I think if I'm alone, I'm going to be a little bit more, you know, play on words here, a little bit more ballsy. Yeah, that's fair. And I'm going to try some things. But the fact that my kids are in the bathroom, I'm their only protector. My goal is to stay alive for as long as possible, hoping that maybe he's going to do what he says and then leave.

If I try to fight back, maybe now he's pissed off. He does kill me. Now there's nobody left to protect my kids. And now he goes and kills them because he's angry with me because I kicked him in the balls. There's a lot that's going to go through your head. Yeah. It's a lose-lose. but interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Okay, so either way, Shirley did what she thought was best and what she was capable of in that moment. And sadly, she was murdered while her children were in the bathroom. Like I said, Dennis takes, you know, his briefcase, his hit kit. He takes some of Shirley's underwear for a trophy. He leaves. As soon as he was gone, Shirley's kids broke the bathroom window and ran to a neighbor's house for help. That neighbor, Sharon, rushed over, went to Shirley's bedroom, and found her body tied to the bed. Sharon ran back home and called 911.

When officers arrived, they sadly pronounced Shirley dead, and then they spoke to her children. Right away, the scene reminded detectives of the Otero murders. Finally, these Wichita detectives are putting two and two together. So it was the bindings, the level of control, and the brutality that were all too familiar. So the Wichita Police began to wonder if BTK had struck again. As police searched for Shirley's killer, Raider was at home berating himself. He had lost control of the situation, and he knew it. Instead of carefully selecting and studying his victim, he had acted impulsively.

He later told Dr. Ramsland that he realized he was not yet the polished killer he imagined himself to be. He then burned his clothes, he hid Shirley's underwear in one of his hidey holes, and he wrote about the murder in his journal. He worried about being caught, but still believed he needed to kill again. This time in a way that he could feel proud of, right? He didn't want to leave these murders, these scenes, feeling like, oh, you messed up, or, oh, that could have gone differently. Why didn't you plan for this better?

Even though we know in the other murders, he planned, he stalked, he watched, And there was still things that were popping up that he didn't expect and that were out of his control in both of those other murders that happened. So he's once again trying to convince himself, oh, it was bad this time because I didn't plan. But the other two times that you did plan, things still went wrong. So once again, maybe this is just not something you should be doing. But Dennis Rader wanted to plan another murder that he could walk away from and feel proud of. So Rader continued stalking women while perfecting his breaking and entering methods. Eventually, he found a new victim, one he called Project Perfect.

Dennis Rader found this victim attractive, and her duplex address contained his number, the number three, which as we know, he ridiculously saw as a sign. So as he stalked her, he learned she lived alone, had no children, no boyfriend, and no dog. He also discovered her name by going through her mail. She was 25-year-old Nancy Joe Fox. She'd grown up in Wichita with four siblings and worked at Helsberg Jewelers. After learning this information, Rader visited the store pretending to shop so he could observe her in person. Once he was satisfied that she fit his fantasy, he decided to kill her on December 8, 1977.

That night, before her shift at Helsberg ended, Rader drove to Nancy's neighborhood and parked several blocks away. He walked to her duplex carrying his hit kit under his coat. He knocked on her front door to make sure no one was home. And when no one answered, he went around to the back, cut the phone lines, and entered through a window that he cut open. Then he waited. When Nancy returned home, she was startled to find Raiders standing in her kitchen. She asked what he was doing there, and he said he meant no real harm. Once again, he told Nancy he had a sexual problem and he only wanted to tie her up and take pictures.

So Nancy removed her parka. She sat down, obviously visibly upset. They talked for a while and Rader rummaged through her purse. Eventually, Nancy said, quote, well, let's get this over with so I can go call the police. End quote. She asked to use the bathroom and Rader agreed, placing something against the door to keep her from locking it. And when she came out, he told her to undress. Then he handcuffed her with her hands behind her back.

So going through these scenarios, and once again, it's all hindsight. Yeah, that's the number one thing to keep in mind here because these individuals had no idea this was about to happen. So that element of surprise is a big factor here that has to be considered. But also, BTK is now well-known around Wichita. Still. This is who you could be dealing with.

You're not thinking it's going to be you. You're not, of course. No shot. This is all in hindsight. But if anybody's in this situation and somebody is in your house when you get home and They're like, I just want to tie you up and take pictures. First of all, don't believe them. Second of all, when you go in the bathroom, you get something sharp.

I don't care if it's a razor. I don't care if it's a toothbrush. You got to maybe fashion into a shiv really quick. I don't know. There's stuff in the bathroom. Tweasers, eyebrow tweezers can be really sharp. But you get something. You hide it in your hand.

And when this dude tries to tie you up, you start stabbing him in the neck, carotid artery, right? Something. I don't know. You got to. Yeah, I mean, I, I. I know I sound like a broken record, but to me, when we cover these big cases that are serial killers, I personally don't get anything out of hearing the graphic details or anything. And that's why we're kind of avoiding some of it for this series, just with children ourselves. And it doesn't do anything for our mental health.

Speaking of mental health, it's a lot. It's taxing, especially when you've got to go home to your kids. But the real reason that I'm going to use the word enjoy covering these cases because I feel like I get smarter. I'm more educated, I'm more prepared, and I learned something from both perspectives as an investigator and working cases like this, but also as a civilian, just like everyone who's watching or listening this, because I'm as susceptible as to becoming a victim as you are. Even though I may not be a prime target based on how I look, trust me, it can happen to anybody. It could, but you're not as susceptible. But see, I don't treat it that way. That would be a mistake to be like, oh, you know what, I'm 200 pounds, I'm a bigger guy, they're not going to choose me.

That may be true, but that right there is what will get you killed. I treat it like I am a hundred pound woman walking in my car by myself. And by doing that, I'm preparing for the worst, hoping for the best. That's the way, regardless of who you are, regardless of your background, regardless of how you look, size, age, gender, doesn't matter. You never know why they're going to choose you. I don't know. It would be stupid to choose me, but does it mean there's a sign on my? back that says you can't choose me and it could be because they see me and now i'm talking specifically

to me i know that kid he used to be a cop or he was on big brother i didn't like him i don't know it could be the dumbest reason possible like we've learned here with with rater or look at that fancy look at that fancy watch i'm gonna take it whatever it is and they could choose me and it's important with these episodes to talk about how these things happen the different scenarios because even after all these years you're still bringing up scenarios I never even fathomed. And so I think about them from this perspective of what would I do if this were me? That's why I enjoy these conversations. Yeah, I mean, it's like anything else, right? It's, you have to put yourself, when you're talking about these, you do. I don't know if you have to, but I do. Put myself in these situations. What would I do? And like I said, me talking about

this, what would I do? Yeah, I'm a lot braver now than if I was in that situation. To be honest, I don't know what the hell I would do. But if I was in the bathroom, I'd at least try to grab something sharp just in case. I don't know. Would I use it even? I don't know. It's just really, you don't want to think about it, but you can't help it. So Dennis Rader, he made Nancy lie on her back as he tied her feet and gagged her. Then he took a belt, either hers or his, he couldn't recall, and he strangled her until she lost consciousness. At one point, he let up, he released the pressure of the belt so that Nancy would wake up. And then he leaned close and whispered in her ear that he was BTK. To Dennis Raider, this was the torture part of his

moniker. He believed it was torture for his victims to realize they were going to die and there was nothing that they could do to stop it. And of course, he believed that because it was. It was absolutely torture because at first year the nice guy like, I'm just a weirdo. I'm just a weirdo creep. I just want to tie you up and take pictures. You're being nice. You're giving people water, trying to make them comfortable. Once they cannot move and once you have them completely incapacitated, that's when the torture starts. And that's when it's like, hey, I need you to know what's going to happen to you here. And yeah, I'm sure that was just absolutely terrifying. But at that point, when he let her know, I'm BTK, that's when Nancy started fighting back. But of course,

Raider overpowered her. He removed the belt. He tied panty hose tightly around her neck and used more pantyhose to bind her hands and feet. Then he masturbated on her nightgown as she died. Afterward, Rader went through her drawers and purse, taking jewelry, clothing, and her driver's license, placing the stolen items in a pillowcase. He then turned up the thermostat. He wiped on the scene and he left. He hid the pillowcase in a bush near the front door before walking to his car. So once inside his vehicle, he drove past the house and retrieved the pillowcase, before leaving the area. Now, why did he do all this? First of all, you're getting real bold here. You took her driver's license, her jewelry, her clothing, one thing. Her driver's license,

like a very identifiable piece of documentation that if found in your, you know, in your possession or in one of your hidey holes, even if it was like your wife or your kid that discovered it, it's going to definitely tie you to this murder. Because how are you going to explain how you got Nancy's driver's license. And why would he take it, put in the pillowcase, hide it in the bushes, walk away, get in his car, which once again is identifiable. So let's say somebody just happened to be walking past Nancy's house or one of her neighbors happened to be looking outside. And Dennis Rader in his car pulls up, walks to the bushes really quick, grab something, goes back to the car. And then later you find out Nancy's dead. And you're like,

well, I did see this guy in his car that I've never seen before. He pulled up. He walked to the as he grabbed something, here's what his car looked like, here's what he looked like. I don't know why you would do this, but that's what he did. Hey, criminals were smart. They wouldn't get caught. BTK is no exception. He ain't smart. I think it was this like ego thing happening now.

Like I think he now left feeling like, oh, I'm proud of this. I did this correctly. Everything went as I wanted it to. And it almost like gave him a swagger that that made him feel like he could be, I don't know, a little bit more bold. But either way, that's what he did. And then the next morning, feeling euphoric and craving recognition, Raider called police from a payphone along his work route to report Nancy's death. Because he couldn't even wait for her to be found naturally, right?

He had to make sure they found her and that he had to be the one to report it. And when he called, he actually held a handkerchief over the receiver thinking that this would disguise his voice. Later, he regretted that decision when he heard his call played on the news. and he realized like, ugh, actually, that handkerchief didn't really disguise my voice as well as I hoped it would. And then he was afraid that someone would recognize his voice and turn him in. So we got a lot. Dennis Raiders doing a lot of things here, but we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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They have dogs. They have dog ones, too, that match. I didn't get those just because my dogs are not a metable. to having anything on them, but you can do that if you have a more cooperative pets. And the holiday shop is open right now, so there are tons of new prints and cozy styles. So most important question, where should the people go to find them? Well, you can shop our favorite pajamas at skims.com slash crime weekly. After you place your order, make sure to let them know we sent you, select podcast in the survey,

and then choose Crime Weekly from the drop down. And if you're looking for the perfect gift this holiday season, Skims has you covered. Yes, the Skims holiday shop is open now at skims.com slash crime weekly. Trust me, these are pajamas people actually want to get and it's pajama season. So go for it. Okay, we're back. So Dennis Rader goes to Nancy's house. He kills her. He lets her know he's BTK. He's enjoying it. He's walking out of there with his trophies. He feels good. So good that he calls the police the next day with some weird handkerchief. over the phone thinking that it's going to, you know, disguise his voice, his calls then played on the news. Now he's all stressed out again, you know, that somebody's going to recognize his voice and turn him in. But he still had to make sure that police found Nancy. I just don't understand that because she would have been found eventually. And the reason he turned the thermostat up

was for what? To throw off the time of death. To throw off the time of death. Yeah, that's a common practice. So calling the following day and saying, hey, she's dead, go over there, you're kind of narrowing the time of death down because she went to work that night. And then she came home after work and you killed her and then you called the next day. So instead of the time of death potentially being, you know, over the course of days, maybe nobody figured out until she missed her next shift a few days later and then the police went over there eventually. It could have been three, four, five days. Now you're upping the thermostat to throw off the time of death, but you've also narrowed it down between her getting home from work

and you calling. We talked about this in part one, even maybe part two. There is an element of this where this cat and mouse game, I'm smarter than the cops, is part of the gratification. Yeah, the crime itself is where they get a lot of it. But then it expands to not only am I enjoying what I'm doing, but I'm better than the cops. I'm smarter than you.

And now this cat and mouse game is also part of the experience. And so they... I think his favorite part, actually. I feel like at some point, the killing... doesn't give them that same sensation that they once had, just like a lot of things, if you do it often. And this is now a new element. It's almost like a drug, right?

You start with something simple, and then you have to do stronger things to get that same high. Being so close to the sun and almost getting burned, that gives them pleasure. I'm giving you opportunities to catch me. I'm right here. I'm right outside your grasp, knowing that they're giving them enough

that if they just put it together, they could catch me, that fear of getting, that anxiety that they probably get from it and knowing it's so close to being all over, that's the new element. That's the new wrinkle for them. Yeah, it's almost like people who participate in like extreme sports, you know, like skydiving or, you know, riding their motorcycles around the roads like haphazardly. And even when these people get into accidents and then they survive, they're like, well, I survived. And the whole thrill of coming that close to death and then is still surviving. and they keep doing what they're doing because they can't get that feeling anywhere else.

And that's what we're dealing with with Dennis Rader, for sure. So when officers arrived at Nancy's home, they found her dead on her bed. And once again, they immediately thought her murder was connected to the Otero family and the Shirley Relford cases. They still didn't think Kathy Bright's case was related since she'd been stabbed. So Rader followed the news coverage on Nancy's murder closely. He read every article he could find taking satisfaction and how much attention her case was getting. By late January, 1978, Raider wanted more recognition for everything he'd done.

So he, you know, put on his poet's hat and took out his pen and paper, and he wrote a poem about Shirley, and he sent it to the Wichita Eagle, signed BTK. So keep in mind, before when he's, you know, I guess conversing, or having conversations with the Wichita Eagle, he put this letter into a library book and then told the Wichita Eagle where they could find it. Now he's sending things through the mail. So this poem read, quote,

Shirley Locks, Shirley Locks, wilt thou be mine, thou shalt not scream, not yet fee the line, but lay on a cushion and think of me and death and how it's going to be, end quote. That's probably the worst poem I've ever read. Yeah, that's not a strong point. That's for sure.

I mean, listen, they don't, poems don't always have to rhyme. But if the content of the poem is pretty weak, it should at least rhyme, you know, and this doesn't. I don't get it at all. Pretty, pretty bad. But he could have worked on that a little bit longer, I think, but it's a bad poem. Seems like he prepares for his poems as much as he prepares for his murders. Yeah.

It makes mistakes in those as well. And what's funny is, obviously, readers. like, oh my God, this poem is going to break the internet. I'm kidding. It was before the internet. This poem is going to break the headlines. That's all anyone's going to be talking about for weeks. This poem is going to really knock everybody's socks off.

But it didn't. Maybe because it was so bad. To his surprise, the poem did not generate the attention he expected. The coverage on BTK stayed limited. And that lack of response made him angry. Maybe he was mad because he did actually put a lot of time enough into the poem and he thought, you know, he was going to get his day in the sun and be lauded for his literary genius. That did not happen. I don't exactly know why. I couldn't

really figure that out. Why the media didn't really latch on to that poem as much as I guess they would have. Maybe they didn't know if it was coming from him. Maybe they couldn't verify. Don't know if it's him. If it's copycat. Could be a copycat. You don't want to put too much onto it because you could be going down a bad rabbit hole, you know. It's tough. It's a tough balance. I don't know. This was the 70s. The 70s are different. I also think now, when we're talking about current times, if it is him, do you want to give him any opportunity, whether it could be just a poem or a manifesto?

You're almost incentivizing people to do this in the future if they feel like they're going to get this type of coverage where whatever cause they're trying to promote, you're now giving them what they want. So I think about the same thing when it comes to school shooters and things. We shouldn't be saying their names. We shouldn't be promoting them. We shouldn't be showing their pictures. because when you do, there could be somebody out there who feels unseen or unheard and they feel like this would be the opportunity to get their voice out there. So current times, even if it's a poem, if it doesn't contribute to the investigation,

I'm not sharing it. Even if I'm the media, I'm not sharing it. Yeah, I mean, in current times, I understand that this has been something that's been dealt with a lot more sensitively and, you know, the media handles these things differently now. But back in the 70s, it was kind of like a free-for-all, I feel like. It was kind of like if something hit the news cycle, it was going to be all over. They didn't really hold back on saying murderers' names or, you know, putting the graphic details in. I'm not sure why.

Maybe it's because it was Wichita. Maybe that community itself, like this is a place where graphic crime details didn't really make headlines and they didn't want to sensationalize violent crimes. also probably understanding this is, hey, this is like the fourth sort of crime, violent crime that's happening in Wichita. And we could have a serial killer on our hands and we don't want to scare people. That could have been it, like not wanting to cause a mass panic in Wichita. I think that's probably more likely.

Yeah, that's fair. Or maybe because the poem sucked. I don't know. They were just like, it's so stupid. It was really bad. It was really bad. So his poem doesn't get the attention that he wants. And Dennis Raiders like, this cannot stand.

So he composed a two-page letter full of grammatical errors, demanding recognition. And part of the letter read, quote, how many do I have to kill before I get a name of the paper or some national attention? Do the cop think that all those deaths are not related? Golly G. Yes, the ammo is different in each. But look, a pattern is developing, end quote. See, it's almost so over the top you think this can't be the person. Yeah.

And I think that when he wrote a letter after what he did to Kathy Bright, he had put in details that nobody would know had they not been there. But now he's just writing some generic, terrible poem about a murder victim. And yeah, it could be a copycat. It could just be some weirdo. Could be just some weirdo. You haven't put in any proof that you were actually there. And in this letter, he really doesn't either. He's just like, look at me, look at me, give me attention.

How do you not think all of these? are related. He wanted national attention, which is odd. So in the letter, he claimed responsibility for seven murders, right? So the four members of the Otero family, Shirley Relford, Nancy Fox, and one mystery victim that police had not yet linked to him, which we know was Kathy Bright. So he closed the letter by warning that victimate was coming soon, writing in part, quote, number eight, next victim maybe, you will find her hanging with a wire noose, hands behind back, with black taper cord, Feet with tape or cord, gagged, then cord around the body to the neck. Hooded maybe, possible seminal stain in anus or on body will be chosen at random,

some pre-planning motive factor X, end quote. Okay. So before we go on, when he says feet with tape or cord, gagged, I didn't misspeak. It's spelled G-A-G-G-E-D. So he could mean gagged, then cord around the body to the neck. Chord gagged. I would assume like gag, yeah. I assume he means gagged, but he only used one G, which, how is he going to school at

night? And he is so bad at spelling and just grammar in general. Like, could be doing it intentionally. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. You think you think he was doing it intentionally? There could be a profiler looking at this letter saying this is someone who's not educated, maybe high school level education. It could be intentional or it could just be a complete moron.

but I feel like he's I get a vomit in my mouth and say it's, but I feel like he's more intelligent than that to be able to spell the word gagged. Okay, so Raiders writing style, the way he awkwardly phrased things, the bad grammar, the random capitalization,

the constant misspellings. According to him, this was a deliberate part of his BTK persona. There you go. It is also reflective, I think, of his limited education

and formal writing skill. He would later say that he wanted his communication to sound mysterious, taunting, and coded. But the result often came off as clumsy and almost childlike. So I think he was trying to sound like maybe like Yoda, you know, like wise. Yeah. But just came off like, who is this guy? You know, he's not smart.

And also we have to qualify by saying consider the source, right? He's saying in hindsight, oh yeah, you misspelling certain words. He's like, I'm not dumb. That was intentional. It's like, yeah, okay, buddy, you misspelled gagged on purpose. Because that's like some mysterious code. No, dude, you missed the G. You missed the G.

You're a dumbass. In that word, you'd probably want to attempt to spell it correctly because now, just like you and me, we're trying to figure out what he was, what he meant? We're trying to figure the police are going to be like, what do you're gagged? Gagged or gagged? Like, what is he trying to say? Because he is. Well, you do also have to realize Dennis Rader, he idolized the Zodiac killers.

Yeah, well, Zodiac didn't get caught. Zodiac, he has not been caught. thought. The letters were cryptic, dramatic, carefully constructed. And yeah, so when you read a Zodiac letter, you're like, hey, I think this guy might be brilliant. There's a level of intelligence there undoubtedly. I don't give a who you are, obviously a monster, scumbag, every other word you can think of, but no doubt, intelligent. To create that code system like that, there's some level of intelligence there. I don't care. Should we cover Zodiac? Yeah, we definitely should.

Yeah, let us know in the comments if you want to. We wouldn't do a back-to-back of BTK, but that's a whole new, that's a big one too. That's always been one that has really just, like, stuck with me because it's weird. This person does seem to be very intelligent. And as far as we know, they've never been caught. And they could still, they could still technically be out there. Opposite of that. You have this guy.

Yeah. And then you got Raider who's like, I love this Odiak killer. I'm going to emulate him, but he doesn't have the writing capabilities. to back that up. I feel like a lot of what we have here throughout this series is revisionist history for Raider where he's going to say certain things and do certain things to try and manipulate and mold the narrative, the legacy, if you will, for him after he's gone. So where there were mistakes or whatever you have, he's going to try to give reasons behind it so that his persona is bigger than what it actually is. This is a scared little man who was a weasel

who couldn't do things the right way, who wanted to take control over these women in certain situations because he felt like he was God and he could do that. And he's a scumbag. And he's a dumbass because he felt like writing these letters

was going to build up that legacy when in fact it just showed us who he really was. Now, in hindsight, when he's caught, he's trying to kind of erase certain things and explain other things away because he knows it makes them look like a moron. And that's how I take it. And that's, I think, how most people are going to

take it. Nobody's sitting here going, oh, yeah, I see it. Yeah, spelling gagged wrong is really genius. Yeah, it's not because it took me a few minutes. I was like, is he trying to say gaugged or gagged? No, nobody's impressed. And I, thinking about it, I do kind of agree with you, because I remember that Raider, he said that, he said some of his spelling errors and his awkward constructions were like intentional. And he hoped that it would make law enforcement thing that English wasn't his first language. I get that part, yeah, for sure. They were looking for like a foreigner, but I don't believe him because you are mad that

other people are confessing and getting credit for what you did. And you are not yourself a foreigner. So why would you want the police to think that they were looking for somebody who wasn't you? Yeah. You know, it just doesn't make any sense. It's somewhere in the middle, right? Maybe there were certain things he did to try to throw off law enforcement right a certain

way so they couldn't use handwriting analysis. but I think the spelling of words, grammar, yeah, maybe there's a small part where he's like, let me misspell a word here or there. So a profiler says, well, they could be uneducated. They could be lower intelligence or they could be doing this deliberately. It doesn't, it's going to be something that's considered by a profiler, but the same discussion that you and I are having right now, that profile is going to happen. They're going to have the same discussion.

So it's not going to be the thing that keeps them from apprehending you. So if he had said, hey, listen, I wrote with my left hand. hand instead of my right hand. That's why the the handwriting is so off from how I normally write. That would make a little bit more sense. But misspelling a word, that ain't going to keep you from being identified. No, and to be honest, he would kind of fit the profile of somebody who didn't have like a huge educational background and didn't have like this great writing skill. You know, he worked at ADT and had a military background. And that this would require structure and organization, and we know he was meticulous and controlling, but he wasn't particularly

like intelligent in a creative or, like, linguistic sense. You know, he wasn't like a great writer, and that showed. That really showed. So Raider mailed the letter to local television station, K-A-K-E-T-V, and on February 10th, it was handed over to police. And from that point forward, the Wichita Police Department went full force trying to figure out who BTK was, and who the seventh victim might be. Something that you need to understand about this letter, Raiders taking responsibility for seven murders. He's naming the ones that the police already kind of suspect are linked together.

And he says, I have this seventh murder victim that you guys don't know about. We know it's Kathy Bright. BTK did not name her in that letter. So he was kind of giving them the mystery, hey, figure out who I am, but also another mystery, figure out who this seventh victim is that I haven't given you the name of yet. But he does say in his letters, like, hey, maybe the MO is different, but look, a pattern is developing.

So he is kind of giving them some sort of clue. Like, you don't think these are all connected. There's a mystery seventh victim. And yeah, maybe the MO is different, but a pattern is developing, which I think the pattern would be, I'm breaking into people's houses. I'm going to where they're safe. I'm going to where they're vulnerable. I'm going to a place where no one else can help them kind of thing. But he did not tell them. It was Kathy. So Raider mailed the letter to local television station K-A-K-E-TV. And on February 10th, it was handed over to police. And from that point forward, the Wichita Police Department went

full force trying to figure out who BTK was and who the mystery seventh victim might be. The department established a 30-man detective task force and set up a dedicated tip line while the media began talking more openly about BTK, which is exactly what he wanted. And Dennis Rader later told Dr. Ramsland that the attention became addictive. So he sent another poem to the media, this one titled, Oh, Death to Nancy, along with the drawing of a woman face down bound and gagged exactly as Nancy had been found. Okay, so I'm going to read the poem. And the poem that Rader wrote is based on the, oh, death folk song from the early 1900s. So not only is he a bad poem writer, but he is not original. So the poem says, oh, death to

Nancy, what is this that I can see? Cold icy hands taking hold of me. For death has come, you all can see. hell has opened its gate to trick me oh death oh death can't you spare me over for another year i'll stuff your jaws till you can't talk i'll blind your legs till you can't walk i'll tie your hands till you can't make a stand and finally i'll close your eyes so you can't see i'll bring sexual death onto you for me okay so the rhyming structure is better here i but once again he based it off of an already existing folk song. So he probably just... And this is something where it could be just surface level, where like you said, he's just basing it off of something else. But as a detective, now, I'd be sitting there for days and weeks, in months and years, trying to extrapolate what

this poem actually means. Why did he choose this poem? Where did it originate? What's the dates and times associated with that? Where was the author of that poem from? To see if there's a connection, to see if there's something in between. these lines of, hey, you're reading the poem and dissecting the words in the poem when in actuality, it's the poem itself, in totality, its origin, that actually tells you who I am. That's what I'd be thinking. In reality, there could be no connection to that. It could be, it wouldn't be that maybe it's not that deep at all. Maybe he's just trying to steal something from someone else and sound smart. But unfortunately, as the detective, that's what we

would have to do. We would just have to rattle our brains trying to figure out what this really means and how it's connected to this person. And there may or may not be a connection. Now, I did find the original poem and there's different, you know, versions of it. But, yeah, he was so on original. Oh, death, oh, death. Won't you spare me over till another year? Well, what is this I can't see with ice cold hands taken hold of me?

While I am death, none can exhala, open the door to having her house. Yeah, he basically just ripped it off completely. So it wouldn't have been hard to figure out where it came from and what he had used as inspiration. Yeah, so that's something. We are going to take a quick break. and we'll be right back. So SimplySafe is a sponsor I take very seriously because as much true crime as we cover,

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By February 17th, the task force had determined that Kathy Bright was likely the seventh victim BTK was claiming responsibility for. After they went public with their theory, Rader went quiet for a time, at least publicly. He continued prowling, stalking women, and breaking into homes. Sometimes he planned to kill specific victims, but his attempts failed. In private, his fantasies grew darker. He kept experimenting with self-bondage, dressing in women's clothing, and using his homemade contraptions. One day, his wife Paula came home unexpectedly and caught him in the middle of one of his bondage sessions while he was staring out the window at a female

neighbor. Once again, he did not plan for this. So his wife comes home and he's bondaged up while he's looking at one of their neighbors. And how is he going to explain this way? Poor Paula, she's pregnant with their second child at this point. She's obviously horrified by what she saw. She had no inkling. Her husband was, you know, who he was. She thought he was a good church-going family man. She didn't know he was into this type of stuff. Remember, he tried to, like, pose it to her once early on in their marriage, and she was like, nah, I'm all set.

I'm not into that. And then he never brought it up again. So she probably thought it was like a passing fantasy, you know, whatever, not something that was consistently on his mind. Now, Rader apologized profusely, and after some time, Paula seemed to let it go. They never spoke about it again. That summer, their daughter, Carrie, was born. Raider was proud to be a father again, but briefly wondered if he should get help for his dark thoughts.

I don't believe you. I don't think you ever wondered if you should get help. Again, source. Yeah. But according to Dr. Ramsland, his obsession with bondage was stronger than his desire to stop. By April of 1979, Raider was hunting for a murder victim again. While driving between classes one day, he noticed a young woman in her 20s outside a home. He decided she would be his next victim and named the project,

Hine cone. On April 28th, he went to the house, cut the phone line, and used a glass cutter to break in. The home was empty, so he decided to wait for her, stealing jewelry and clothing in the meantime. But as the hours passed and no one came home, Rader grew impatient and frustrated. He ended up leaving before the woman returned, angry that another plan had failed. Now, what Rader didn't realize was that the woman he'd been stalking didn't actually own that home. The home belonged to her grandmother, 63-year-old Anna Williams. So Anna arrived home around 11 p.m. and immediately knew that someone had been in her house and she'd been robbed. She tried to call 911, but remember, Dennis Rader caught her phone lines.

Her phone line was dead, so she ran to a neighbor's house for help. Responding officers found that a basement window screen had been removed and the glass was cut out. Now, luckily, these police officers figured, hey, there could be a connection to BTK because he'd done that in previous crimes. So investigators on the task force were quickly notified of the break-in, but there were no leads for weeks. Now in May, Rader graduated from Wichita State University with a bachelor's degree in administration of justice. And this accomplishment gave him pride, but it also created a new problem. Without night classes as his cover, it would be harder to explain to his wife, why he was out late or driving through certain neighborhoods. It would also be harder to explain

to really anybody. Let's say he got pulled over driving through a neighborhood he didn't live in. He couldn't say, oh, I'm coming home for my night classes. He'd just have to. have to be like, oh, I'm just stalking women in this neighborhood, and he couldn't do that. He was also still angry about not finishing Project Pine Cone, and failure was something he simply could not tolerate. Determined to regain control, Rader did some digging and learned that the woman who owned the home he had broken into was named Anna. Now, he still believed that Anna was the young woman he had seen walking outside.

He didn't realize that it was this woman's 63-year-old grandmother. In mid-June, Rader sent Anna an envelope addressed in block letters, and inside was a drawing of a nude-bound woman, along with a scarf and a piece of jewelry, both stolen during the April break-in. There was also a poem titled, Oh, Anna, why didn't you appear? Now, the poem talked about how sad Rader was that Anna had not come home that April night and described the violence he had fantasized about inflicting on her. Rader also mailed a similar package to K-A-K-E-T-V containing a scarf and two.

plastic clips. Once again, these are more items taken from Anna's home. He also included a copy of the poem and drawing he had sent to Anna. So now imagine being the 63-year-old grandmother and obviously not one of BTK's typical sort of victims that he would go after. And not only is your house been broken into, your stuff's been stolen, but now you're getting these harassing letters with like bound victims being drawn for you and like Anna, why weren't you there? and having your stuff sent back to you so he can prove he was in your house and him describing all of the things he was going to do to you. This woman's probably absolutely just shocked by this, absolutely shocked and terrified. She has no idea why she's been targeted and why she's being harassed by BTK.

And this is the first time he's ever done this. He's never gone to a victim before, failed, and then began harassing that victim to let this person know that he failed. And so this is kind of a new thing for him. Obviously, the police were immediately notified about both packages, but after that, Dennis Rader pulled back. He stopped sending mailings and distance himself from anything related to BTK, including murder. Instead, he seemed to focus on being a husband and a father. Now, he told Dr. Ramsland, quote, it was easy to slip back into the Christian world. The kids were growing like weeds, and ahead of the household was needed.

Paula needed to be home, so all responsibility, landed on me. I had no time to be away from home. Being busy with the family, kept the dark side at bay. End quote. Now, do you believe that? Or do you believe he just didn't have the opportunity? We'll never truly know. The opportunity is always there. If you really want it to be, it doesn't take long. It could just be a spontaneous crime. One night, quick, no planning. So there might be some truth to it. Doesn't make him a better person or anything. There might be some truth where unfortunately, and I do unfortunately in air quotes where because of family obligations and because of this change with him graduating from school and not having that

excuse, it did put a monkey wrench in his plans for a little while. I could see that. It doesn't make him any less of a scumbag. But yeah, sure. We'll go with that. Yeah, I just think it's like, okay, I can't do the night class thing anymore. Paul was always home. I don't have as much opportunity.

and he liked to put planning in and stalk these people. And if you can't do that, you're not going to feel comfortable just going out and picking a victim because it didn't go well for you last time. Let's just take a lesser extreme as an example, right? If you're in a household, you have a family and you're doing things you shouldn't be doing, if circumstances change where you were using a certain excuse and now that's no longer available, that could also hinder that ability to do whatever you're doing. So is it completely out of the realm of possibilities that this put a little bit of a burden on him for a while? No, it's possible for sure.

I don't think if he had the ability to continue doing this, he would have stopped. So it would make sense. Like if he didn't have a wife, if he didn't have kids. Yeah, there'd be more victims. There'd be more victims, yeah. That's what I believe, yeah. So Raider spent his weekends gardening and enjoying life with Paula and the kids. His daughter, Carrie later said that her father could be fun to be around.

He'd let his children do whatever they wanted, build projects with them, and take them on family vacations. They often hiked, fished, and camped together, visiting places like Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks. But behind closed doors, there was another side to him. Carrie said, quote, as a kid, you just knew. I better not have my shoes out because I'm going to get yelled at about my shoes. So you just knew not to sit in dad's chair at the kitchen table. You knew to let me get lunch first. You let him choose what activities you were going to do, what movies, where you were going, like a lot of control, right?

And now you realize, like, who my father is, what he was hiding, end quote. So he's still exerting control over the people in his life as he was exerting control over his victims. It's just a different level of control. But he can't be that guy who's just laid back and like chill and like, yeah, do whatever you want, kids. You pick what movie we want to see. He still has to exert this level of influence and control. And although Raider wasn't committing any murders during this time, his obsession with bondage hadn't gone away. One day, Paula caught him during another session in their home.

She was furious and told him if she ever saw it again, she would leave him. Raider promised to stop, but of course he knew he wouldn't. He told Dr. Ramsland that he felt humiliated, like he'd lost power to a woman. And he hated that feeling. So instead of quitting, he found new hidey holes and remote spots to practice bondage. He even rigged up a camera to photograph himself in various positions. He became obsessed with these photos and dreamed of creating similar ones with his murder victims. Now, do you want to look at these photos really quick?

There's one that I've hyperlinked for you. Yeah. Can't unsee that. Yeah. And I don't mind showing this one because it's him. Yeah. So no problem. It's should we describe it for our audio listeners? I don't even. It's Dennis Rader and he has some sort of white cloth over his face, maybe a nightgown. He's wearing what looks like a black bra and he's got like a belt around his legs. He's got panty hose on. Yeah. And his arms are tied behind his back. Now, what I think is. think is funny, is Dennis Rader felt humiliated that his wife saw him doing these ridiculous things.

And she was like, you got to stop or I'm going to divorce you. And he's like, how dare, how dare this woman try to exert power over me? That humiliated him. But setting up a camera and photographing himself like this, that was not humiliating. Yeah, no, I think for him covering his face, he's able to use his imagination to see him in his mind being bound by someone else or maybe he's envisioning being a different person. But the idea of the constriction, I think the inability to escape and to have free will to move in whatever way you want to him is sexually gratifying. And to be in a compromising and humiliating position is something that he gets off to. There's something else that I'm going to say here. I'm trying to think of the way to say it because I'm looking at

this and I'm relating it back to what we were talking about earlier tonight, which is the decision to fight or flee and how you make those choices and talking about size discrepancies when it comes to the attacker and the victim. It's something that I see here that is obvious to me taking away all the nonsense and how embarrassing this photo is. Dennis was a big guy. You know, when I first think about it, he's such a coward to have to go in there and use a gun to gain control of his victims. But in reality, this is around the time when he was carrying out these murders.

And he's a big guy. He's very broad, yeah. His arms, they're behind his back, so they're going to look bigger in that position. But he's a big dude. And that's something that I think about when I consider his victims in the position they're in. But other than that, this is a tough photo to take serious. It really, really is. But I'm glad we have it.

And when we talk about BTK, this is the photo everyone should refer to. Yeah. That's my vote. Because this is who he is, this ludicrous figure. Yep. Yeah. It's really weird. Yeah.

I don't like it. Like, that's what I'm saying, you're humiliated that your wife's like, hey, can you, like, chill, please and stop hiding things from me? But you're not humiliated that you've actually set up a camera and did this to yourself. like that that's absolutely fine for you weird this episode of crime weekly is brought to you by hungry route which has honestly been a lifesaver lately between work holidays coming up and just i don't know life i don't always have the time or energy to meal plan or grocery shop and when i say i don't always have the time i don't ever want to do it now i'm right there with you every week i say to myself okay you know this is the week i'm gonna i'm gonna cook healthy

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Delicious ready to eat meals delivered straight to your door with Factor. By 1983, it had been six years since Rader had murdered anyone. So we've got a six year stint of no murders, which that's a pretty extensive time. That year, his son Brian joined the Cub Scouts and Rader became a scout leader. And he viewed this as a white hat activity, just like his ongoing participation in church events with Paula. Doing these things helped Rader feel like a good person. And for a while, that illusion was enough. He told himself he didn't need to keep killing. That lie only kept Rader at bay until early 1985. Then he started paying close attention to his 53-year-old neighbor, Marine Hedge, who always gave him a friendly wave. He knew Marine lived alone.

Her husband of more than 30 years had died the year before. Raider decided she would be a good target, and he began planning what he called Project Cookie. Targeting someone so close to home broke the rules he had set for himself, but the risk excited him. Plus, changing his MO could throw off investigators. So after Raider convinced himself, Marine was his next victim, he came up with his plan. He really wanted to get some photos of Marine bound up. And he decided the best way to carry out that part of the plan would be to kill Marine at her house, then transport her dead body to his church and do a photo shoot there. How is this the best plan? Kill your neighbor and then set up a photo shoot with her dead body at the church you've attended for years. Well, I don't think the plan

here is for these photos to be seen by anybody else other than Raider, just like the photo we just had of him on the screen. What if someone's there? What if somebody walks in? Someone walks in or that photo gets out. Somebody sees it now. They can start to follow the breadcrumbs and they can see this church that there's certain members who belong to this church. If they ever got to put a drawing, which they do. Now they can compare the drawing to members of this church and start to narrow down that pool of suspects. So yeah, it's a big risk. But I think again, that risk is what gets him off. Yes, yes, absolutely. Keep going back to being so close to

the sun without getting burned. That's where he gets off. That's his enjoyment. It's just as you could have gone anywhere else where if somebody happened to walk in, at least you'd have a chance of them not recognizing you. But now if someone walks into the church, you're like, hey, that's, that's Dennis. But now let's look at it from his perspective. And I think about Rex Sherman when we're talking about this, being at his church on Sunday, if he's able to pull this off, sitting in that, that pew, thinking about what he did inside that facility while he's sitting there. That's going to excite him. Being so close to where it all happened and no one around him knowing that. I think about Rex Hurerman where he would hide bodies along that road, the parkway there, where he would

drive home every day and he would have his trophy room almost where he was dumping the bodies. This would have a similar impact for him where he'd be able to being a building where it's a place of worship, everyone else being there for a certain reason, but him having this added quote unquote benefit where he's reliving what he did inside these walls while everyone else is praying to a higher being. Pretty crazy. So big risk, big payoff for him. Yeah, big Heidi hole, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. So now he goes to church on Sunday and it's like, oh, I want to be here now because I know this and nobody else knows this. And this is somebody for my neighbor, my community. Yeah, big risk, big payoff for him.

And it's almost like, we're all adults here, so I'm just going to say it's almost like voyeurism, right? Like having sex in these random public places that you can get caught. For some people, that's what gets them off, right? That's what gets them there. And I think that's the same type of thing here where it's so wrong and it's so risky. For him, that's what makes it worth it. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't think about it that way, but it's totally a great point.

So he did prepare for this. So he, you know, went into the church before. before he did anything to Marine, and he stored black plastic sheets inside the church, which he would then use to cover the windows to make sure no one saw him in there, because nobody's going to notice walking by, like, why are there black sheets hanging in the church windows? But anyways, so Raider planned to carry out what would be his eighth murder on April 26th. Then remember, this is a murder he wrote about to the police and the papers, specifically saying how this victim would be found.

He picked that day because it was the start of a scout camping trip, which is something he could sneak away from. And on that day, Raider packed his hit kit in a bowling bag and then headed out to the campsite for the scout camping trip. He parked on a ridge near the site so he could slip away and return unnoticed. Then he helped set up the scout camp like a good scout leader. And when they were done, he told the boys and the other leaders he had a headache and he needed to retire for the night early. He went back to his car, left the area, changed out of his scout uniform into regular clothes, Then drove to a bowling alley.

Once there, he pretended to be a bowler while ordering a beer. He put some of the beer on his face so that he'd wreak of alcohol and make people think he was intoxicated. Then he called a taxi to take him to an area in his and Marine's Park City neighborhood. Once he was let out, he walked to Marines home. It was empty when he arrived, so he cut the phone line and waited inside for her to return. Marine did come home soon after, but she wasn't alone. She was with a male friend named Gerald. Raider hid quietly in a spare room closet and waited for Gerald to leave, and once Gerald was gone,

Raider stayed hidden until Maureen went to bed. He continued waiting until the early morning hours before creeping into her bedroom. Now, she didn't wake up at first, but when he switched on the light, she screamed. Rader jumped into the bed and strangled her with his hands. She fought, but he was able to overpower and kill Marine, who was very small at around 100 pounds. He then stripped her body and tied her up before going through her purse. He took her car keys and a few personal items, including her driver's license and underwear. And then he wrapped Marine's body in blankets from the bed and carried her to the car.

And he carried Marine to her car, not his. Because remember, he took a taxi from the bowling alley to this area. So Raider then drove to Christ Lutheran Church. He brought Marine's body inside, and he put up the black plastic sheets to cover the windows. He then bound Marine's body in different positions while photographing her. afterward, Rader put Marines' body back into her car and drove to an area where people were known to dump trash. He placed her in a ditch and covered her with brush and tree limbs. He then drove around discarding evidence before wiping her car clean and parking it at a shopping center near the bowling alley.

He walked back to his own vehicle, returned to the church to clean up, then drove back to the scout camp as if nothing had happened. Later, he realized he had left the cord on Marine's neck, so he went back to remove it. it since he didn't want Marines murder to be tied to the other BTK murders. So Dennis Rader wrote, and remember, this has been several years since he wrote that letter. He hasn't killed anybody for several years, but he told the police, hey, this eighth victim is going to be killed like this. He does not want Marine and her death to be affiliated or connected to BTK because it's not the way that he had described that eighth victim.

So he wants to remove any sign that there's like bindings of any kind. Now, when Marine didn't show up to work on the 27th, she was reported missing. Police went to her house and found her phone line cut and her car gone. Inside the home, there was no sign of a struggle and nothing appeared missing. Officers spoke with her friend Gerald, the last person to see Marine, and he said he had nothing to do with her disappearance. She had been completely fine when he left her home at around 1 a.m. that morning. For days, the search for Marine and her car continued. Then on May 2nd, her car was found at the shopping center.

It was muddy, but had been wiped clean around the trunk and sides. The car was locked and had to be opened by a locksmith. Once they got inside the trunk, detectives found weeds, evergreen needles, two bed covers, a purple bedspread, a tan curtain, and a pink electric blanket. But Marine was still nowhere to be found. Then on May 5th, Marine's nude body was discovered by a Park City police officer and an animal control officer in the ditch raider had left her in. There were maggots on her body, which told them she'd been there since around the time. she disappeared. A knotted piece of panty hose was nearby, and later an autopsy showed she'd been strangled to death. Despite the details of Marines' murder being similar to previous

BTK murders, the police didn't have any immediate suspects in Marines' murder. They assumed that if BTK was responsible, he'd write a letter telling them all about it, which is ridiculous that the police are like, well, let the killer tell us what murders he's responsible for, not realizing that this guy's playing games with you, and he may or he may not. do that or he may be trying to mislead you. They're like, oh, if he, if he killed Marine, he'll let us know. But obviously nothing from BTK arrived because Dennis Raider didn't want these, these things connected. And that's because Dennis Raider knew that Marine's house was too close to his own to risk contacting the police, even though he really, really wanted to. So Raider decided to lay low.

He wanted to focus on his personal and work life. He was still at ADT. Before the end of 1985, he received a promotion there, and he became a maintenance officer. And despite being busier than ever with work and family, Raiders' urges just wouldn't go away. He kept prowling. And by the summer of 1986, he was ready to kill again. But that will have to wait until part four. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of the same stuff here, but I feel like it's building the MO. It's also showing the evolution of BTK and how it changed over the years and how at some points,

like you talked about in Marines murder, where he's looking for the notoriety, he's looking for the legacy to build and to scare and cause fear in more people. And yet now he's pulling back a little bit because now he's starting to feel, okay, maybe I am having too much come back to me. And this is too much,

I'm where I eat, if you will, with the church. And so... With the church and with it being his neighbor. Right, that's right. And so I do struggle because on one hand, I'm like we're giving this guy attention, but on the other hand, much knowledge that can be pulled from this because unfortunately Dennis Raider is not the only

person who operates like this. Or who thinks like this, yeah. So you have to learn from it because, yeah, we got him, but there's more out there like him. And so we have to put ourselves through it to learn from it. And just like many of the people who are probably tuning in for the series, I didn't know all the specifics of it. I knew about the drawings. We covered it briefly on crime feed.

But this gives a whole new level to it in the sadistic nature. of Dennis Raider and the more and more I hear, the more and more I dislike him, even though I didn't think that was possible. But you got to go through it. It's a necessary evil. And I think for a lot of people who want to understand how these people, how their brain works, I don't think we'll completely ever get there, but it does give a little bit more of an understanding that we can use going forward. I also think it's interesting that in his previous murders, after the Otero family and after Kathy Bright, he suddenly, you know, that wasn't enough for him anymore. He wanted the notoriety. He wanted to be writing to the papers. But then he takes a pretty long stint away from

killing. And just like a person who's using drugs, if they are using drugs steadily, and then they constantly need to do more drugs or different drugs to get that same high, that was Dennis Raider having to contact the media, having to get attention. But after taking several years away for murdering, suddenly he didn't even need that notoriety anymore with Marines' death. He was back to almost being like, hey, I've been clean and sober for eight years. Just the murder itself is enough to satiate me now. I don't need the attention. But that's going to change.

It always doesn't. And that analogy is a perfect one for it because it's the same thing with a lot of drug users. If they do end up relapsing, it does start off with maybe just one quick usage. And then all of a sudden they're back to where they were before they ended it, before they were able to stop. And so, yep, terrible situation. Wish we could go back and stop it before it all happened. And so the only thing we can do from this now is learn and try to prevent it going forward. And I do think, like I always say, with science and technology, it's becoming less and less likely that this would go on for this period of time.

Especially if they're writing letters and sending pictures. It's a fascinating story. And it's interesting to get into the mind of someone this evil because we don't normally get to understand why they did the things they did, even though we have to take everything he says with a grain of salt. because there's always an agenda there, a motive, if you will. I don't think we'll ever understand totally, right, exactly why he did what he did. He's only going to tell us what he wants us to know. He's going to show us what he wants us to see. And only that, that's it.

Yeah. Interesting conversation, though, and I think the takeaway from me is just wanting to hear from you guys. Hearing these different events and how he was able to get away with them, what do you take away from it? Did you know about BTK beforehand, now hearing more of these stories? What do you think? Do you put yourself into the shoes of the victims? How would you handle it differently? Specifically, Marine is a perfect one. I don't know even as I sit here right now what she could have done differently. No. You're going to check your closets before going to bed? Yeah, no. It's not practical. The only thing now with technology is having an alarm system. Because if you have it and it's activated, well, if he's inside your home before you get there, motion sensors are going to go off. That would save you. So that is one thing. But during this time period, we have to think about alarm systems and they weren't that prevalent. They were also connected to the phone lines. That is also true.

So he cut the phone lines and it wouldn't have mattered. So, yeah, there's, I don't think there's anything she could have done. But I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts. I think there's some really interesting conversations that we can have from this. So can't wait for this one to come out and hear what you guys have to say. Any final words from you, Stephanie? No, I think we've said enough here. It is a lot.

And I mean, I know we're kind of going back and forth with the Crime Weekly news is I wouldn't say they're lighter, but this is a lot to sit here, even as just a listener myself, and to consume all of this and kind of hear different stories, different names, but kind of a similar M.O. And it's just more of a lot of what I don't want to hear because I'm helpless at this point. There's nothing we can do, but I understand why. So we'll be back next week, part four, BTK. And until then, I think this is a perfect. example to say right like stay safe out there keep out on swivel we'll see you next week bye