Crime Weekly - S3 Ep360: BTK | The Piano, The Mask, and the Dead of Winter (Part 4)

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

In 1974, Wichita, Kansas was shaken by a series of brutal attacks inside family homes. Men, women, and children were bound, tortured, and killed by a predator who called himself BTK. For 17 years, he terrorized the community, claiming at least 10 victims and taunting police with disturbing letters that detailed his crimes. Then in 1991, the killings abruptly stopped, leaving law enforcement and the public to wonder if the killer had vanished forever. For more than a decade, there was silence. Then in 2004, BTK resurfaced with new messages, reigniting fear in Wichita. But that renewed need for attention would ultimately be his downfall, and by the following year, detectives had identified the killer as Dennis Rader, a father of two, a Scout leader, and a trusted member of his church council. Rader was the last person anyone suspected of being a sexual sadist serial killer, but once investigators began putting all the puzzle pieces together, it became clear that Rader’s family-man persona was just a mask covering the monster beneath. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. https://www.PDSDebt.com/CrimeWeekly - Get your FREE assessment and find the best option for you at PDS Debt! 2. https://www.EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping! 3. https://www.Coyuchi.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 20% off your first order with Coyuchi! 4. https://www.Smalls.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 60% off your first order plus FREE shipping with Smalls! 5. https://www.SmartCredit.com/CrimeWeekly - Start your 7-day trial with Smart Credit for just $1!

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please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levaser. So we are here for part four of the Dennis Raider BTK case. And as always, I'm going to give you a quick recap of where we're at so far. So by the end of spring, 1985, Dennis Rader was a married father of two now. He was also a scout leader, a church volunteer, and an ADT employee, a perfect citizen from an outside view. He was also a sexual sadist serial killer, known as BTK. So over the previous 11 years, he had murdered eight people, Joseph, Julie, Joey, and Josephine Otero, Kathy Bright, Shirley Vienne Relford, Nancy Fox, and Marine Hedge, his neighbor.

So his eighth victim Marine had lived just down the street from where Rader lived with his family. Until then, he had always targeted strangers, but now he was killing someone from his own neighborhood. It was a sign that he was escalating, breaking his own rules, losing control. That's right. So to steady himself, Rader threw his energy into work and family life. Before the end of 1985, he received a promotion at ADT, and he was busier than ever. But no matter how full his schedule looked on the outside, the darkness never truly left. The fantasies still called to him. And by the summer of 1986, Dennis Raider was ready to

kill again. So that's where we are so far. However, before we dive in to today's episode, we wanted to say happy Thanksgiving to everybody, because Thanksgiving's coming up. And we happen to be off next week. Right. I know. It feels weird. Yeah, it does feel weird. I feel like we haven't had a week off in probably a year since last Christmas Thanksgiving time. That's right. So you guys will see, we'll be hearing this on the 21st, watching it on the 24th. Thanksgiving is on the 27th. So this is a blackout week for us. And it is weird. It's definitely weird because usually when we take vacations or whatever, we just record double the episodes to get it done. But it is important to decompress. It is important to step away for a little bit. Spend time with your family and loved ones on holiday times. And for you guys as well. We do about. 50 episodes a year. So one week off for all of us is not bad. We'll obviously have a week off for Christmas as well. But yes, we're going to finish up this BTK series after the break. We were

trying to do it where it would be before. It just didn't work out. We're not going to shortchange it. We're also talking about potentially having Dennis Raider's daughter, Kerry, on here. We've known her for years. I've worked with her on this case for other shows. We'll see if she's interested if she's not completely okay, but I'll reach out to her over the break and gauge her interest and see if she wants to come on. And if she does, we'll have her. We'll have her after the break. Yeah. So if you guys have questions you want us to ask, Carrie, go ahead and throw them in the comments. No promises she's going to come. I haven't gotten the answer from her yet, but we're going to try. Yes, absolutely. And honestly, when it's Thanksgiving, Christmas time, and I do want to just kind of

put everything away, focus on my family, focus on making those memories, focus on being thankful and grateful for everything that we all do have. I don't feel like listening to true crime or talking about true crime. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. So having a little break every now and then to focus on what's important, it's a good thing. So we will be back as always, but just for this week, we won't. But happy Thanksgiving. We hope you all have just the best holiday and that you have family and friends that you can spend time with and that everybody's in a good place in their lives, mentally, emotionally, physically. We wish you all the best. Now our segue into BTK.

What a segue. That's a rough one. Now, let's talk about a serial killer who didn't appreciate his family and the simple things in life. No, I'm glad we're covered it, though, because even I'm learning things, and I covered this briefly on crime feed, but Marines' murder in particular has stuck with me. And I've already talked about it off record, and I talked about it with defense diaries. I did an episode with them. I've talked about it on Detective Perspective, because it's so interesting in the sense that, that we as the true crime community will sometimes make the mistake of just assuming it's exactly

the way it looks, you know, the last, the husband who was with her or the boyfriend who took her out on a date and we think, oh, the guy who was last seen with her. Yeah. The guy. And I know, and I know that's not why we're covering this case. But think about how unlikely that scenario is. And if you were looking at it from the outside, you would say, oh, this guy who dropped her off and was in her home with her before he left in, you know, the late morning. Had to have been him. It had to have been him, right? What was somebody hiding in her closet waiting for him to leave or something?

Exactly. There was someone hiding in her closet waiting for her to leave. That's exactly what happened. What the heck? What are the odds? Things, you can't judge a book by its covering it. And it's important for me, just as an investigator, when I do cases in the future to think about this. Think about the man in the closet theory is what I'm going to refer to it as because

as stupid as it sounds, that's why I normally say, I'm 99% sure because you'd never know about the man in the closet. So when you hear me say that in future episodes, if you're with us for a while, you're going to know what I'm referring to. You never know about the man in the closet. The man in the closet theory. And not the most likely scenario, but possible as we have learned. Absolutely. And that's why we have to dot our eyes, cross our T's because regardless of how it may look on the surface, there are those outliers. And, And we got to make sure we check everything. Yeah.

And this is how people sometimes get wrongly convicted of these things because, you know, unlike Dennis Rader, most men in the closet aren't going to want to take credit for that. They're going to be like, ha, somebody else got in trouble. Right. Her boyfriend was last seen with her. Awesome. I'm in the clear. And you'll never know.

And there'll be somebody sitting in prison. Yeah. Thank God he took credit for it. Yeah. Thank God. Because I'm sure there were people who thought that this gentleman could be responsible. Especially now in the 80s. Everybody would have thought that.

Yeah, no, that was something, that was the big thing for me that I'll use going forward, just like re-instilling the fact that you got to check all the facts and make sure they all line up because it could be the man in the closet. Could be the man in the closet. So by the summer of 1986, Dennis Raiders' life was filled with responsibilities and his time for prowling had become limited. So he decided to kill during his lunch break. And he already knew who his ninth victim would be. Weeks earlier, while driving through the Indian Hills neighborhood, Rader had noticed a young mother getting out of her car with a small child. He didn't know her name then, but she was 28-year-old Vicky Wegerly, a stay-at-home mother of two, married to her husband, Bill. Rader began stalking Vicky while on the clock, using his ADT vehicles as the perfect cover.

So for around three weeks, he drove past her home, walked through the neighborhood, and studied her routines, all while acting like he was just working as an ADT guy. you know, as they do, looking around, making sure, oh, is the wiring right for this? Oh, you know, let me knock on somebody's door, see if they want to talk about ADT. His presence in their neighborhood wouldn't have struck up suspicion because he's an ADP guy. Why wouldn't he be in the neighborhood trying to make it safer? So Dennis Rader liked that Vicki's front porch was covered because it meant her doorway would be hidden from view. He also liked that when he passed by, he could hear her playing the piano. He later told Dr. Catherine Ramsland, author of Confession of a Serial Killer, quote, I always liked the piano. I had hoped to learn to play it, yet it has a

mystical power on me, end quote. There's his mysticism and magic coming in again, right? So he's always got to have some metaphysical sent by the universe reason to pick a victim. And so Rader called his plan to kill Vicky, Project Piano. He decided to pose as a telephone repairman. believing his ADT uniform already made him look the part. Now, beyond that, all he needed was a few props. So he cut a Southwestern Bell telephone logo out of a phone book and taped it to a hard hat. Then he created a fake ID badge showing that he worked for the company. On September 16th, Raider was ready to carry out his plan.

He dressed in his ADT uniform, grabbed his customized hard hat, sunglasses, and a briefcase containing his hit kit. Then he drove to Vicky's house, this time in his personal car. not a company vehicle. He parked across the street, pulled the brim of his hat low, and avoided eye contact with anyone nearby as he walked away from his car. But instead of going straight to Vicki's, Rader stopped at the neighbor's house and spoke with the couple who lived there. He said he was checking phone lines in the area and asked a few vague technical questions before walking to Vicki's door. Now, why did he do this? Because I think in his head he thought,

oh, I'm a telephone guy. I should be talking to, you know, more than one person in the neighborhood. That way, if someone sees a telephone guy at Vicky's door, the neighbors will be like, oh, yeah, that telephone guy talked to us too. But to me, at least from the perspective of modern crime solving, the police are going to be like, who was in the neighborhood that shouldn't have been here? And they might talk to the person who lives next to Vicky. And if those people are like, yeah, telephone repairman was here, they're going to call the

telephone company and be like, hey, did you have someone in this neighborhood on this day at this time? And if the company says, no, then that's going to look suspicious. It's going to look like, oh, hey, now we know somebody's posing as a telephone guy and not actually a telephone guy, right? Does that make sense what I just said? Totally makes sense. And even if it were for no other reason than to interview the telephone guy, right? Oh, maybe they saw something like this neighbor didn't see anything, but maybe the ADT guy or the telephone guy saw someone. And so, suspicious, right? We've seen it happen in other cases where someone will say I was driving by a location where a victim was eventually found and I saw a police car there, right? Or I saw a car

with lights or a man in uniform. Law enforcement, if not from that jurisdiction, we'll call the police department and ask, was there a police officer out at that location at that time? And if there wasn't, well, then they now know that someone's posing as a police officer. So yeah, you're 100% right. So once again, the question is, hey, did you really want to get in and out of their unseen, unobserved? Or do you kind of want to once again play a game with law enforcement? Do you want them to know that you're dressing up like a telephone guy and you're not a telephone guy? And so they'll be like, whoa, this BTK, he's so smart. He's like, so, you know, he's got all these different disguises and who knows who he really is. It's almost like you want to add a layer

of mystique to the public perception of what BTK is because you could have just gone to Vicky's house. Like you said, the front porch is covered, right? Could have just gone in like you've gone in before and not kind of like made inquiries around the neighborhood as the telephone guy. Because now, if the police are worth their salt, they're going to call the telephone company to see if they had a person in that neighborhood. And when they find out no, they're going to know that the killer was posing as a telephone repairman. Now, Dennis Raiders never done this before, you know, pretended to be like a telephone guy. But maybe he wants to sort of just add this like a layer like, oh, you never know who I'm going to be.

You never know where I'm going to show up kind of thing, which is weird. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a variety of things. I think it's, again, playing close to the sun, see how close you can get before you get burned. I think it's the cat and mouse game, as you kind of mentioned. I think it's also building to the mystique, the legend, the legacy, if you will, like of what he's doing. And I think he's trying to see how far he can go.

Like, how much can I hide in plain sight? like for him that's now the killing itself this is going to be number nine i'm not trying to diminish what's happened to these victims but for him it's kind of wearing off right as far as the the the gratification he gets from the actual killing a lot of time has passed a lot of time and so now he's done this before this is kind of a regular thing and he's trying to add different layers to the murders to give him the same feeling that he felt on the first time that he murdered someone. And these are the little variables that he's adding. Yeah, to me, it seems like somebody who knows a lot about fictional crime, like what you read in books or see in movies,

but not a lot about real crime because you might be like, oh, well, I don't work for the phone company. How do they know me? Well, these neighbors now can kind of give an, like, a description of what you look like physically. You know, they can say that even what the color your hair is or how tall you are. You're standing at the front door. So, yeah, I think he's like, I see this in movies where they dress up as like, you know, a telephone repair man and they go and case out the neighbor. But in real life, and you're leaving breadcrumbs that could possibly expose you. Yeah, I think that's the, that's where he gets his rocks off now, you know, is the risk

of being caught. Which is crazy. So he goes to Vicki's house after going to her neighbor's house. And when she answered the door, Dennis Rader asked if he could come inside to inspect her phone. She let him in. Now, once again, I know that it's a different time. Don't do this. If somebody comes, and this happens to me, they'll sometimes come and they'll look around the outside.

They want to check connections or they're reading the meter, like the electrical guy, they're reading the meter. And he'll come to the door and he'll be like, oh, I want to talk to you about something. And I'll ask to see his badge. And then I'll also say, like, we don't need to come in to talk. You know, we can just talk right here. Like, what do you have to say to me? You can stay on the porch. I'll stay at the door.

What do you need to say? Don't let anybody in your house. Yeah, of course. And just on that note, now there's a technology with most of the meters where they don't even need to come up to your house. They can read them from the street. So if you have someone poking around your meter or your pipes or whatever, don't go out there alone. Like Stephanie said, because most of it now is all done through Bluetooth or Wi-Fi, where they're getting those readings from the street. And sometimes, yeah, there's legitimate reasons they need to talk to you.

They'll call ahead of time. Yeah. There'll be many calls. They bother the shit out of you with emails and calls. Hey, they'll be there in 10 minutes. They'll be there in five minutes. I got it. I got it.

Hey, actually, we realize we've been not charging you enough. your next bill is going to be extraordinarily high. Congratulations. So anyways, once he's inside the house and inside the living room, Dennis Raider saw a baby and a playpen and he heard two large dogs barking from the backyard. The dogs were far from ideal. We know that Dennis Raider doesn't like showing up to these houses and seeing dogs, but it obviously wasn't enough to stop Raider at this point from following through with his plan. He's inside and it was easy to do.

So he later told Dr. Ramsland that Vicki showed him where the telephone was and he used a fake instrument. and he pretended to test it with this fake instrument. When she looked away, he drew his 25 caliber gun. As soon as she realized what was going on, Vicky became scared, started to cry, and she said her husband would be home for lunch soon. Then she asked Dennis Rader if he was going to hurt the baby. Now, I don't know if Vicki's husband was going to be home from lunch soon.

If he was great, if he wasn't, it's a good thing for her to say, because Dennis Rader doesn't know if Vicki's husband's going to come home for lunch or if he does come home for lunch or if he's planning to come home for lunch that day, he doesn't know and it may it may plant a seed of doubt in his head like uh you know maybe i should get out here but a good a good ploy to use somebody else somebody's going to be here soon i think that's a good thing to do so raider then ordered vicky into the bedroom and he told her he was going to tie her up he first used a stocking from her dresser but after he tied her hands she broke free and fought back scratching his nose and face so he gained control while they were wedged

between the bed and the wall he then bound vicky's feet with a leather shoelace. He tied her hands behind her back with the stockings before strangling her with a stocking and the same shoelace. When she stopped moving, he unzipped her jeans and pulled them down a few inches. He shoved her top and braw upwards to expose her breasts. Then he took three photographs with his polaroid. So at this point, the dogs were going wild, barking and scratching at the door. That combined with Vicki's mention that her husband would be home soon, told Rader he needed to leave. So he picked up his kill kit, he grabbed Vicky's purse, and dumped its contents into the briefcase. He then left the house, using her car as his

getaway. He later said he liked taking her car. It made him feel powerful and in control, and it also allowed him to leave without being seen walking back to his own car. So we do have some escalations here with Dennis Rader. He's taking Polaroids now, taking pictures of his victims. And instead of sort of going through their personal belongings and grabbing a few things, like their driver's license or, you know, a trophy, he's dumping her whole purse into his briefcase. So he's taking everything that she's gotten there. And it shows you, just like what Derek said, his past murders, there's been time that's passed. They're just not doing it for him anymore. Taking an ID here or taking a little trophy there, having stuff to hide in his hidey holes.

It's almost like he wants this surprise when he gets home and he's safe. Now he can look through his briefcase and go through all the items that were in Vicki's purse and gain enjoyment. from every single one of them. He doesn't just want to take an ID or one or two items. He wants it all so he can extend this excitement from the kill. Yeah, there's not much more that. I hate talking about these in detail. And I know you have to be descriptive

and when you talk about the murders because it's giving us an understanding of how his MO is changing and how it's evolving, which is going to lead to him eventually getting caught, right? Because he's getting too cocky, he's getting too confident. But it's tough and it's tough to think

about what she had been thinking right prior to that, you know, Vicki knowing her baby's there asking if he's going to hurt the baby and probably in the back of her mind. And being killed, not knowing if that was going to happen, like knowing I'm going to die and I don't know what's going to happen to my baby. Yeah, that's just it. That's just it. So going into that bedroom, not knowing if you're going to come back out, not knowing if you're ever going to see your child again. Now, what do you make of him saying that he likes to take her car because it makes him feel control and he's not going to be seen walking back to his own car because he could be seen walking to her car and then his car is still there so his car's still

there he's got to come back to it eventually this all goes back to the to the ADT thing i think there's this escalation not only in the killing itself not only how brazen he is and who he's choosing and the close proximity to his own personal life being neighbors etc he's adding these different layers because he's trying to get that same rush i said it a few episodes ago it's like a drug addict right the original drug that you took and how much you took of it, you're not going to have that same effect after you've used it a hundred times. So with these murders, he's adding these new layers to create that anxiety,

that fear of getting caught where it's, and also him feeling confident in the fact that I know what I'm doing at this point and I can go to this extreme and I'm still going to get away with it. So the car doesn't really add anything to it. Initially it was just, if you remember for the Oteros. He had parked his car. Yeah.

Yeah, it was just to kill them. That was the whole point. It was to get away with it and get out of there without being seen or heard from now. He's driving around in the victim's cars. That's balls. And he's doing that because it's for him. It's control. It's power.

It's gratification. He's trying to recreate that feeling he had during the first murders, which is causing more risk. And you have to understand this could cause things to be over for him within an instant because he doesn't know the state of Vicki's car. She could have a headlight out. He could get pulled over two minutes after he leaves. leaves her driveway because she has a headlight out or her registration is, you know, expired. And then he's going to be in the victim's car and back at her house, she's dead. It's over for you now. There's no- He'll be walking out to the car and her husband walks up.

There's nothing you can do. What are you can do? Nothing you can do to get out of this now if that, if that were to happen. These are unnecessary risks if your whole goal is to get away with it. If your whole goal is not to be apprehended, he's doing these things because it's making him feel some sort of way, some type of rush. also have a better, almost a better analogy than drug use. Adult material. Adult material. Do you what I'm talking about? You're talking about adult videos? Adult videos. Yeah. I don't think you can say the P word. I don't know if we can, but yeah, it's the P word. Full disclosure. I said the P word the first time and Stephanie was like, we can't say that. So we cut it out. And we're saying it now. Okay.

So I've heard, because it does become an addiction and I've heard men who have, you know, indulged in this material for a long time say that at first it's exciting and then as time goes on they almost have to like up the game like oh this this regular adult material isn't enough now I have to watch things and you know maybe go into like something that's a bit more like oh the woman's being forced here or she's being tied up or now there's like multiple people with this woman or now there's a woman in an animal if you know what I mean and it's not be I swear to God look it up I think the drug example was better. No, they've said, I swear to God, this is, it is such a common thing.

And then these men say, like, I didn't even want to see that. I didn't even want to see it. It's not like I was like, oh, I'm turned on by this. It was just that my brain was no longer turned on by that. So I had to try to up the ante to get my brain to the same place and the same excitement level. It was at before. There is a lot of men that say that.

Look it up. I would not lie to you about this. I'm going to take your word. Okay. And not go forward. Hey, listen, on that note, Yeah, let's take a break. Let's take a break because Stephanie needs one because now she's gone from murder to threesomes with horses.

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One more time, PDSdebt.com slash crime weekly. Okay, so we're back. Dennis Rader in his victim's car drove around town, getting rid of evidence. He threw the briefcase into a dumpster behind an ice cream shop. He threw the hard hat into a trash can near a muffler store. Then he drove out to the country, throwing things out to the window. along the way. Now, of course, he didn't get rid of everything. He kept the Southwestern Bell emblem as a reminder of his successful disguise. He believed that this disguise could work again. He also

kept Vicki's driver's license and the Polaroids he had taken of her. At one point during the drive, Rader stopped to get rid of his clothes. Then he changed into a clean ADT uniform. Keep in mind, he's doing this all in Vicki's car. So it's not even like, I'm going to drive for 10 minutes and get rid of this car and then get back to my own car, I'm disposing of evidence. I'm driving all around town. He could have gotten pulled over at any time. He just doesn't seem to care. So he then drove Vicky's car back to the Indian Hills neighborhood and parked it near a local market a few blocks from her home. As he walked back to his own car, he heard the sound of emergency vehicles racing towards Vicki's house. He left the area in his car, barely avoiding the police.

and he went back to work as if he'd only taken a long lunch break. Later that night, he hid the Southwestern Bell emblem, Vicki's driver's license, and the Polaroids in one of his hidey holes. So Dennis Rader paid close attention to news articles about Vicki's murder. And that's how he learned that the sirens he heard that day were racing towards her home because her husband, Bill, had in fact come home for his lunch break, just like Vicky said he would. And that is when Bill found her dead. Now, this is a lesson, I think, for Dennis Rader, because he probably. thought, Vicki's just seeing this to scare me, so I'll leave. But she was actually meaning Bill was coming back for lunch. And, you know, Dennis Rader barely missed Bill coming back.

And there's a different universe where Bill really missed Vicki and his baby that day. And he came home early and stopped this. And Vicki got to live and raise her child. But sadly, not in this universe. So to me, it also shows a lack of preparation. Again, it goes back to ego. You talk about someone who's going to carry out this murder and he hasn't even done enough reconnaissance to understand that the victim's husband comes home for lunch sometimes. And that is something that if it were going back to the first murder, I think Dennis would have done more research. Yeah, he was so fastidious about the Oteros, like knew when the father left to go to school.

What was that word you just used? Fastidious. I did not know that one. What does that mean? Like meticulous. Yeah. Very attentive to and concerned about accuracy and detail. Fastidious. Fastidious. Okay. New word for me. Maybe everyone's laughing at me right now, but I have.

It made me feel like I was. No, no, no. I was complimenting you. Forty-one years old. I've never heard that word before. Yeah, huge attention to, you know, I read a lot. Okay. Huge attention to detail with the Oteros where he knew the father was what time he left

the house. He knew what time the kids got to school, what time they got back. But with Vicky, he didn't even know Bill came home. from work for lunch, that is odd. He's kind of getting a little bit cocky and lazy. Yeah, 100% getting lazy for sure. So when Bill got home, he got there just before noon and he saw that his wife, Vicky's car, wasn't in the driveway and he thought that this was odd.

He went inside and he found their two-year-old son in the living room. So after playing with his son for a few moments, Bill started looking for Vicky. And that's when he found her tied up on the bedroom floor, which I can't even imagine what to find your wife, the person you love, the person you have children with, just to find them like that and so unexpectedly, like, who could even expect to walk in on that? Bill was obviously very upset, but he thought very quickly, he used a small pocket knife. He cut the stocking and the shoelace that was around her neck. He then called 911 and told the dispatcher that he thought someone had killed his wife. Bill was distraught. He was crying out, quote, Vicky, Vicki,

Vicky, Vicky, oh, God, oh, no, no, no. End quote. So while he was still on the phone, he suddenly remembered something important. About an hour earlier, he'd seen a man pass him in a gold Monte Carlo on 13th Street. At the time, he hadn't realized it was Vicki's gold Monte Carlo because there was a man driving it. Only now, after finding Vicky tied up and murdered, did it all click for Bill. And good thing it did. Like, this is a man who, I mean, most of us drive home from work were on a

autopilot, we're not even paying attention to what's happening around us. But Bill was paying attention. Well, I think if you saw someone, I do it all the time where I see someone driving the same car as me, I pay a little bit more attention to it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I. If someone's driving his wife's car or a similar car to it, they might go, oh, look at that. Another gold money car. I go into a different world when I'm driving. Oh, that does not surprise me at all. I know. I know just sitting in the car listening to music, pretending you're in a concert. Screaming to Taylor Swift. Exactly. Yeah, unfortunate.

But Bill, he's good. So when the first responders arrived, they realized that Vicky was still alive, but just barely. And luckily, I think that a good reason for that is that Bill got there and the first thing he thought to do before even calling 911 was to cut the bindings around her neck. So Vicky was rushed to the hospital where doctors tried to revive her. Sadly, they were unsuccessful and Vicky passed away. So with a homicide on their hands, Wichita detectives processed the Wagerly home and issued a bolow. for Vicki's missing car. At around 12.30 p.m., a man named Ronald was driving near the market in Indian Hills

listening to the radio when he heard a news alert about the search for Vicki's gold Monte Carlo. And then moments later, Ronald spotted her car. So he parked, ran inside the market, and called 911. Now, this is all happening very, very soon, like in a very short amount of time. And I think that if Dennis Rader really believed in the universe, he would once again be thinking, hey, it's sending me a message that I am a jackass who's about to get caught because Bill gets home at noon. He happens to see Dennis Raider driving his wife's car. And then a man who's driving by the market in Indian Hills happens to hear the Bolo on the radio. And then moments later

sees Vicki's car. So this is all moving very, very fast. All right. There is somebody out there is looking after Vicki and being like, we're going to make sure this dude's caught. The universe is on Vicki's side, not Dennis Raiders. So when the police arrived, they confirmed that the car belonged to Vicky. They naturally believed that whoever killed her had left it there, but the person they suspected wasn't BTK. Instead, suspicion fell on her husband. Which is what you just talked about, yeah? Yeah. And while Bill was never formally charged, many within the department believed for nearly two decades that he was responsible. Okay. This is upsetting to me because this I've heard Bill's story and, you know, I've thought about the horrible implications it would have for his life to not only lose your wife and have to raise your very young child by yourself, but now everyone in the community and the police for two decades thinks you're responsible for her murder.

And that's going to really just completely ruin your life and your chances of happiness and life fulfillment just absolutely horrible. But for Dennis Rader, that was the best outcome possible. And in fact, when Bill told the police, hey, I saw someone driving my wife's car, like a man driving my wife's car, they were probably like, sure, buddy, sure you did. So they didn't even probably follow up on that lead of a man driving Vicky's car, which is just, and then they, do you think they even went and talked to the neighbors? And hey, did you see anybody in the neighborhood? And then the neighbors could have been like, yeah, there was a phone guy here. And then they could have, all the stuff we said they could have done. They didn't do that because they had tunnel vision and they thought it was Bill for whatever reason.

I will say, I think a lot of us, like with Marine, that is going to be your first person that you look into. I understand that. You're always going to look to the husband, the boyfriend, the wife, the people who aren't the last to see the victims alive and check out their background. Where were they? I mean, he comes home at lunch and he finds, quote unquote, finds his wife dead. How many times have we had similar circumstances where it turns out that. They actually just killed their wife or they killed her earlier that day and now they're trying to cover it up. So I don't have a problem with them looking at Bill.

It's one of those things that if you're doing your job, you're going to look into him as a potential suspect, but you don't want to get tunnel vision. And I will acknowledge that even myself, that'd be something where you're looking at the most obvious and the man in the closet. That's something that you have to think about in every case now. I agree that they'd initially suspect him because that's what the staff say. But to not like even question neighbors and see if there was anybody in the neighborhood that would, they shouldn't have been there or somebody knew there that day because then the neighbors would have said, there's a phone guy here. And then maybe they would have looked into that. And not to believe Bill about the guy driving his wife's car because they think it's him and not pursuing that. Also, you know, not the best way to handle the investigation, I would say. Well, listen, if there weren't mistakes by investigators and or criminals, we wouldn't have a lot of solves. So yes, absolutely. There's more that can be done. So at this point, Dennis Rader thinks he's in the clear. He starts planning his next attack, using his time at work to scout potential victims. And when his job required travel, he prowled during those trips as well. He was always watching, always planning. Rader later told Dr. Ramsland that at this point, his fantasies had evolved and escalated yet again. Not only did he want to abduct a victim and take them somewhere private. He also wanted to bind and photograph them in what he called his element, not theirs. In his mind, every murder. since the Otero's had been rushed. He never felt he had time to do everything he wanted, and that frustrated him.

So while working in Wichita and other areas, Raider identified multiple victims to kidnap and kill. But thankfully, as far as we know, he never got the opportunity to carry out his plans. So he continued his bondage in secret. He also kept up with the local news hoping to see something about BTK. On or around January 1st, 1988, a story caught his attention, not because it was about him, but because of how brutal the story was. It was about the triple murder of the Fager family, who lived on East 14th Street in Wichita.

On December 31st, Mary Fager returned from an out-of-town trip to find the family car missing. She assumed her husband Phil and their two daughters, 16-year-old Kelly and 9-year-old Cherry, had gone out. But when she walked inside, she found Phil on the living room floor shot to death. She immediately called 911, not realizing where her daughters were. And when the officers arrived,

they found Kelly and Sherry in the basement under a cloth cover of a hot tub that had been left running. Both girls had been drowned and Sherry had also been strangled. Very shocking case obviously and the police quickly identified a suspect in the Fager family triple homicide. Bill Butterworth, a contractor who had recently built the family's son room. He had stolen the faker's car, emptied his bank account and bought new clothes before fleeing to Florida. Now Bill Butterworth was quickly arrested and extradited to Kansas, where he pleaded not guilty to all three murders, claiming that he had entered the home, seen the bodies, and panicked before fleeing. The authorities didn't believe Butterworth, though, and he later went to trial.

However, he was actually acquitted, leaving the Fager murders unsolved to this day. He was acquitted. And I've looked into this one, too. I definitely think it was Bill Butterworth. Okay? You don't just walk in and see three people dead in your first thought. is, oh, let me steal their car, take the family credit card, buy new clothes, and run away to Florida.

Yeah, and he would have definitely had the access and the knowledge to get in, get out, know the weak points of entry, the scheduling when they came and went. And we know it wasn't Dennis Rader because he certainly, if it was him, would have taken credit for these murders. So how many people in the Wichita area, like Bill Butterworth and Dennis Rader, are out there just breaking into people's homes and brutally killing the families and then stealing their cars. Really, I think it's pretty obvious. It was Bill Butterworth, but that's just my opinion. Allegedly, don't come for me. This caught Dennis Raider's eye for obvious reasons.

And we're going to talk more about that, but first we're going to take a quick break. This episode is brought to by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor, IQ Bar is the Better for You plant protein-based snack made with brain-boasting nutrients to refuel, nourish, and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash. And I've already eaten two of them today. It is about 2 o'clock. I had one for breakfast and then one around noon. Amazing.

Yeah, I know you've been keeping those bars close by because every time we have a recording, I feel like when we take a break, I always see you munching on one. So I'm like, okay. From somebody who munches all the episode. All day long. That's the privilege of not being the main narrator.

I can just sit here and eat my lunch. Well, you see me munching on them during our break because they're actually good, right? They're really good. Like, they're good for you. They do great things for your brain. But if they weren't, if they didn't taste good, I would not be munched. No, no doubt.

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He liked that other people were capable of crimes like this. It made him feel, once again, I'm not, I'm not, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm not, you know, demented or crazy or broken. This is probably how more people wish. they could be, but just me and this other dude, Bill Butterworth, have the balls to do it, you know, but there's nothing wrong with me because he really always wanted to feel that what he was doing was ordained and, you know, meant for him. So he decided to take this and he wanted to stir up the pot with Wichita Police and the media by sending in a new letter. So this time, he drew an image

of a young girl bound and lying beside a hot tub entitled it, quote, oh God, he put Kelly, Sherry in the tub, end quote. So along with the drawing, he included a short message that read, quote, another one prowls the deep abyss of lewd thoughts and deeds, end quote. He didn't sign the note with the same BTK, but he did add one of his signature symbols so detectives would have an idea of who it came from. So Rader mailed the drawing and letter directly to the Fager home, which is absolutely horrendous. And it arrived on January 5th, while police still actually had control of the house because it was

a crime scene. So once the letter was discovered, it was sent to the homicide department for review. The moment detectives opened it, they suspected it was from BTK. So this letter ended up being important to two detectives, not because it helped with the Fager investigation, but because it told them two key things. BTK was for sure a local and he was still active. Now, why were they sure that he was a local? Because this was a local case and it had really only been talked about, on local news at that point. So this realization was significant because police hadn't heard from BTK for more than eight years.

The last time he'd reached out was in June of 1979 when he mailed the, oh, Anna, why didn't you appear poem and the drawing and the stolen items to KAKETV? Because of that, the Wichita Police weren't sure what had happened to BTK. They wondered, did he stop killing? Did he die? Did he move? Did he go to jail for something else? Now they knew the answers to at least some of those.

questions. Now, it's also interesting to me that the police are looking at BTK for the Fager murders, but not looking at him for the murder he actually committed, which was Vickies. They're looking at her husband. But sending the Fager letter seemed to satisfy Raiders need for attention, at least for the time being. He focused on staying under the radar, carrying out his bondage rituals in secret, and building elaborate contraptions to fulfill his fantasies. But in the summer of 1988, Raider lost his job with ADT. And then that's when his wife Paula became the primary breadwinner again, which bruised his ego. With no job and way too much time on his hands, Raider was constantly fantasizing about his past victims and, of course,

thinking about killing again. Sometimes he took things a step further, and he went to an abandoned barn or a rented motel room to have a good time alone with his Heidi hole items. But that wasn't enough. There's so much to take from that. I mean, it's not intentional, but, man, the jokes just make, they just write themselves. I know. I mean, this man is just absolutely pathetic and disgusting. Like, he's over here thinking that he's this God among men, you know, this, like, amazing, strong, feral, animalistic creature that's dangerous on, you know, walking amongst mere humans. And he's just really a pathetic sicko.

Because to think about Dennis Rader dressed up in, you know, panty hose in a motel room or a barn by himself. Pouting because his wife makes more money than him. Pouting because his wife makes more money than him. Playing with his hidey hole items. What a loser. What an absolute loser. But obviously, this wasn't enough for him. So he began going wild, stalking and breaking into homes just to, quote, blow off steam, end quote.

Around this time, he also became increasingly angry that BTK wasn't being talked about anymore. Other serial killers like Ted Bundy and the Green River killer were dominating national head. lines and Dennis Raider felt that BTK deserved the same recognition, but it wasn't happening. And once again, his egos bruised and he's jealous. So throughout this time period, Rader kept searching for work until he landed a temporary position with the U.S. Census Bureau, which is also not a job you want a serial killer who breaks into people's houses to have. No, God, no.

But I think that's why he's choosing these jobs, frankly. I think he's choosing these jobs where people would expect him to show up at. their door and ask questions or look around. Yeah. I think that's why he's specifically selecting these types of occupations. Why doesn't he just get a job as a truck driver, like the majority of these here? See a truck driver, right? A truck driver, if a truck driver pulls over and they walk up to your door and they're knocking on your door, that's suspicious. But if a census worker or an ADT worker or a phone operator or a gas person, you're expecting that type of person to show up at your door. It's too risky to dress as a law enforcement officer.

This is kind of in between that. But it still gives you a reason as to why you're knocking on this person's door and maybe they're going to answer. Yeah. And also, this job was really perfect for him because it required travel, sometimes out of state, which gave him new opportunities for secret bondage, stalking, breaking, and entering. But the work only lasted a year.

And by the summer of 1990, Raider was back to being unemployed. He was restless and no longer satisfied with the things he did in private. The urge to kill returned, and he decided it was time to murder again. In the fall of that year, Rader spotted a house not far from his on hillside that caught his attention. So once again, it's close to where he lives. And Rader didn't know it then, but this home belonged to 62-year-old Dolores Davis, a retired mother of two and a grandmother of two. Because there were dog kennels near her property, Rader referred to Dolores as Project Dogside. and he began stalking her, casing the area, and watching her routines until he decided she would be his 10th victim.

He chose the night of January 18th, 1991 to kill her. The timing was deliberate. It was the Boy Scouts' annual Dead of Winter campout, which besides the fact that it gives him an alibi, just the fact that they called it the dead of winter camp out is just like you can't write this stuff. It's absolutely ridiculous. So that evening, Rader arrived at the campsite early. He helped set up, and then he told the others he needed to go back to town for a bit. From there, he drove to his parents' house, which was empty. He changed into his hit clothes.

Then he parked at a Baptist church on East 61st Street in Park City. He walked the rest of the way to Dolores' home and arrived just before 11 p.m. He stood outside watching the house, and he saw Dolores sitting inside reading. When she went to bed, he tried to find a quiet way in, but he couldn't. So he picked up a cinder block and just smashed the sliding glass door in her living room. When Dolores came out to see what was going on, he told her he was a wanted man. Once again, he's kind of going back to this old story. I'm a wanted man.

I need food, a car, and money, and that he was only going to tie her up and then leave. So Dolores responded that she was expecting someone. And this made Rader upset because remember, the last time his victim told him that she was expecting someone, it ended up being true. Yeah, she told the truth. So he later told Dr. Ramsland, quote, I could not believe my look in these places. I've always got someone coming. I really wanted to spend some time with her, but I didn't know if I had much time, end quote.

So now he's kind of like, maybe I should believe her, right? Like I wanted to take my time with my victims. I'm thinking this is an older woman. Her children and her grandchildren are at the house, but now she's got a friend coming over. What the heck? So Rader didn't leave. He didn't say, ah, well, I'm not going to get what I want from this anyways.

I'm not going to be satisfied, so I'll go and find a new victim. No, he didn't do that. Instead, Dennis Rader handcuffed Dolores in her bedroom. He cut the phone line in the house and tried to calm her by pretending he would leave once he found her car keys. But then he retied her with pantyhose from her drawer, and that's when she realized he intended to kill her. Dolores begged him not to, but he slipped the pantyhose over her neck and strangled her to death. He wanted to take pictures of her, so he wrapped Dolores in her bedding. He dragged her to her car.

He put her in the trunk. He then drove to a lake area he knew well and left her body in the brush before driving around to get rid of evidence. Once again, in Dolores' car. That's when he realized his gun was missing. He didn't have his gun. So he returned to Dolores' home and he found it near the broken sliding glass door. He had dropped it when he threw the cinder block in. And this is once again just a sign that this guy's kind of not really consistently remaining in control of the situation.

because in all the other cases, he would break in and then use the gun to threaten the victims. But maybe with Dolores, he's thinking she's older, there's less chance of her fighting back. And so he's not cognizant of where his gun is after he breaks into the house. He's waiting for Dolores to come out of a bedroom, be like, what the hell, what's going on? Why are you in my house? And he doesn't even have his gun in his hand. He's just like thinks he can kind of keep her under control with just his words and his physical power. and he leaves the gun at her house, which obviously would be a bad move if he hadn't realized it.

Now, before he left her house, he stole a jewelry box, a camera, and once again, Dolores' driver's license. Okay, I got a question. We're obviously getting this story from Dr. Ramsland because he's relaying the story to her. What would be the motive behind telling Dr. Ramsland about this particular detail, right? Overall, it didn't matter in the end, but it just makes him look like an idiot. It makes him look unprepared, not quite to use this word, but professional. Not professional, like he wanted to be viewed, yeah. So what do you make of it?

Is that the motive right there? You're saying he wanted people to see him as just this bumbling moron who was just tripping through these murders? Well, I mean, he told me. This wasn't the first time he told her about a mistake he had made, right? He's told her about a lot. I'm just asking, I'm just bringing up this one because, again, it's another thing where it just makes them look like a moron, like you forgot the murder weapon or the what you were using to gain control at the crime scene. You had to go back to the crime scene for it. Like, you don't hear Zodiac talking about the mistakes they made.

Well, so Dr. Ramblund herself has spoken out about this. And she said that it was definitely noted by her that Rader wanted to test her. And he was always capable of shifting his identity for a specific reason. So she kind of felt like discussing his errors was a way to play a game with her, a continuation of the psychological manipulation that characterized his crime. So yes, maybe in a way he wanted to kind of show like, you know, I wasn't this prolific killer. I'm human. I'm just like a normal human.

I just have this thing in me that makes me want to kill. Like I'm mentally ill. I wasn't in control of myself. It was the black hat that took over and maybe subconsciously Dennis Rader, the good guy, the guy who went to church and was his kids scout leader, maybe I was making this mistake intentionally so that I would get caught because Dennis Rader didn't want to do these things. Because Dennis Rader was genuinely shocked that he wasn't caught sooner. He was. And we are too. Yeah.

Yeah, we all are, we all are too. But he would talk about that and be like, I'm sorry. surprised. Even after the Otero family murders, I'm surprised that I wasn't caught. And every time he killed, he kind of was surprised that it didn't lead to something. And yeah, in a way, it continued growing his ego, like, oh, I can do this. And the police are idiots. And I must be smarter than the police because I keep getting away with it. But I think subconsciously, he knew he wasn't smarter than them. So once again, maybe it made him feel, oh, there's something in the universe out there that's like protecting me and is the reason for why I'm doing this. So I'm not culpable because

it's the black hat. Maybe I was making mistakes to get caught and also like, hey, Dr. Ramblin, I'm as surprised as you that I didn't get caught because look at all these mistakes I was making. I don't know. Do you think he's trying to humanize himself too? For sure. For sure. Like, hey, I'm just one of you people, you know?

I mean, technically he is just a normal person. You guys like your toy train set? I like murdering people. Yeah. Like we all make mistakes, right? I got fired all the time. So, yeah, definitely not exactly sure. but I also think it just comes, I think it comes from just keeping people on their toes and keeping them like off balance.

You know, like it kind of made you ask that question. Like, why would this guy who wanted to be seen as so capable and so in control even tell anybody that he made these mistakes? We never would have known if he didn't tell her. Very odd. But let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. I'm so excited to tell you about our sponsor, Koyuchi. Koyuchi is in a league of its own when it comes to.

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One more time, C-O-Y-U-C-H-I-com slash crime weekly. Okay, so after Dennis Rader drives around in Dolores' car getting rid of evidence, after he hides her body at some other place, and then goes back to her house to get his gun and to steal her jewelry box and her camera and her driver's license, He then walked back to his car, he changed his clothes, and drove back to where he had stored and hidden Dolores' body. He carried her to his car, he laid her on a plastic sheet inside, and then he drove carefully to avoid being stopped. Then he headed towards an abandoned barn that he'd fantasized about bringing victims to. But the weather wasn't cooperating. It wasn't good.

He couldn't find the barn. So instead he went to a bridge at 117th Street, and then he moved Dolores' body down the bank and placed it beneath the bridge, hoping to come back for photos the next night. He drove back towards the scout camp, leaving Dolores' belongings and ditches and covering items with tumbleweeds along the way. And back at the camp, he built a fire, laid down, and fell asleep as if nothing had happened. And this just to me reeks of, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm not in control of the situation. He wants to bring her to the barn. He can't find the barn, but you know he's been to this barn plenty of times because he's fantasized about it.

He can't find the barn. He chooses a bridge, a bridge, leaves her body under the bridge. And then he's like, I don't have time to do what I need to do tonight because I'm supposed to be back at Scout Camp. I'll come back tomorrow night. What? You just leave her there and you're like, I'll come back another night. Like you got all this time in the world. Absolutely weird.

So he just doesn't really know what he's doing. he's playing it by ear. He's making it up as he goes along. So as Dennis Raider and the campers woke up and started their day the next morning, a man named Thomas was trying to find Dolores because Thomas was scheduled to work on Dolores' car that day, but she never showed up. So he kept calling her and calling her. She wasn't answering. By noon, Thomas decided to drive to her home to check on her. And when he arrived, he immediately realized something was wrong because Dolores' car was in the driveway where she never parked it and the curtains were still drawn even though she was notoriously an early riser. So Thomas knocked at the door, but there was

no answer. He lifted the garage door and saw that the interior door to the home stood open. So he decided to go in. As he walked through the house, he noticed that the phone cord in the kitchen had been cut, and then there was broken glass and a cinder block on the living room floor where Dennis Rader had broken in. So in the bedroom, the bed linens had been stripped and Dolores's jewelry box was missing, but she was nowhere inside or outside the home. So this guy, Thomas, he leaves, to find a phone and call 911. Detectives arrived shortly after and started searching for Dolores. So the same day, the Dennis Rader plans to go back to the bridge and do whatever he wants

with Dolores' body and take pictures. There's people that already realize she's missing and that something's going on here. The police are already aware. Yeah. And also, we didn't really talk about it much, but another escalation. And I mean, if you remember, in Vicki's case, she had fought back and she scratched his face. So once again, we have technical DNA evidence of Vicki's killer under her fingernails. And because the police think it's her husband, Bill, did they even take fingernail samples?

Did they even pursue that level of investigation? I don't know. But yeah, he's making mistake after mistake. So meanwhile, back at the scout camp, Dennis Rader was acting like he hadn't killed his 10th victim just hours prior. He still wanted to take photos of Dolores. So that night, he told the other scout leader that he had a headache and he needed to go home to get some medication. But instead of going home, he collected Dolores' items that he'd hidden in ditches under tumbleweeds. Then he drove to a rest stop to change his clothes.

While there, a highway patrol officer came inside and said a crime had been committed and he needed to speak with him. Dennis Rader later told Dr. Ramsland that at this point, he was panicking as his car at that moment contained stolen property from Dolores' house. So if the officer wanted to search his car, he'd for sure be found out. So Raider tried to play it as cool as possible. He told the officer that he was a scout leader traveling to camp. The officer bought the story and left. But Raider was shaken. He assumed the officer had written down his license plate and description of the car and maybe a description of him, which meant he had to be more careful than ever.

Yeah, especially now future crimes. You see that name or that description or that plate pop up again. That's it. That's curtains. Yeah, but the guys like a crime is. but the police officer, a crime's been committed, sorry, I need to talk to you. Dennis Raider's like, I'm a Boy Scout camp leader, so are we all good here? And the officer's like, oh, yeah, absolutely.

Go on your way, sir. I'm so sorry to have bothered you. Like, why is that enough to not question somebody about a crime being committed when seconds before you wanted to? Yeah. And I know you mentioned it and his concern if he had, if the patrol officer had written down his plate or taken the description, that could be a problem. down the road, but I'm going to assume that didn't happen. Yeah, I guess. It probably didn't. Probably didn't happen.

I mean, if you don't want to question him, obviously, you're not too concerned with this person. You're not concerned. You're moving on to the next person. But Raiders is paranoid, right? He's paranoid. He's paranoid. But as far as law enforcement's concerned, if this had been documented, thrown into a dispatch log, just the interaction, maybe, I don't know, maybe they catch him sooner, but we'll never know. Yeah, but, I mean, Raiders are all like, I'm so nervous. What if he wrote down my car?

He's thinking the police officer did his job. That's crazy. He thought the police officer would have taken his name down, written the description down, maybe typed up a small interaction report, something. Did his job, right? Yeah, no. But, I mean, even though Raiders like, oh, I'm for sure, you know, I'm cooked, that's it. He's scared of getting caught, but he doesn't go back to the scout camp.

He's not like, huh, abort the mission. No, he still goes to the place where he left Dolores' body. So he's not too scared to get caught that he can't keep fulfilling out his creepy fantasies. And once he was there with her body, he opened up her night clothes to expose her breasts. He placed a porcelain mask that he purchased months prior over her face in order to make her look more, quote, female. And then he took some pictures. Then he left Dolores there. he drove to the old barn he'd been trying to find the night prior and he left her jewelry box

and other items there. I don't know why he can find the barn now, but he couldn't at the night before. And I don't know why he's keeping stuff there. He doesn't know. Yeah, this barn's abandoned, but it could belong to somebody. It could be somebody's property. There could be kids that go there and smoke weed. He doesn't know. Why is he leaving her stuff there? I just don't know where his heads at at this point. He also hid more evidence in a plastic bag inside a culvert. He threw away his shoes, grabbed some dinner, and returned to the scout camp where everyone was still awake around the fire. The next day, January 20th, Raider saw a helicopter flying overhead, and he assumed someone had found Dolores' body, but he was wrong. Delores wouldn't be located until

February 1st, when a teenager walking his dog noticed something under a bridge. Now, after looking closer and seeing a body, the teenager ran home and called 911. And when officers arrived, they located Dolores' frozen body with a painted porcelain mask lying nearby. She was wearing night clothes, but her chest was exposed. A piece of cloth was tied around her neck, and her wrists, knees, and ankles were bound together with pantyhose. An autopsy determined that Dolores had been strangled and the pantyhose bindings around her limbs had been tied after death.

So this time, detectives did see clear similarities between Dolores' murder and that of another unsolved homicide, Marine Hedge. And obviously, we already know what these similarities are. Both women lived alone. Both had been bound and strangled. Both were taken from their homes and left outdoors, and in both cases, their cars had been used by the killer. Also, both women kind of live in the same area.

They both kind of live close to Dennis Rader. So the media reported on the parallels and questioned whether BTK could be responsible. Now, you'd think that this would make Dennis Rader happy because the media is talking about BTK again. But no, it made Dennis Rader. Raider very nervous. So he decided not to send any letters, and he also decided, I'm going to take a break from killing again. Yeah. Still, he kept some of Dolores' clothing, which he later used in his bondage sessions, sometimes even wearing a porcelain mask like the one he had left with her body. So when he wasn't practicing his secret bondage, Dennis Raider was searching for a job. And in May,

just four months after killing Dolores, he got a full-time job as a compliance officer in Park city. So as a compliance officer, he's going to be responsible for enforcing city ordinances like pet control, litter, yard maintenance, other minor violations. And once again, this role gave him authority and that sense of control he craved and access in some ways. So these were dangerous feelings for Rader to have. And normally they could have led him to kill again. But according to Rader for a few years, he didn't have those urges at all. It wasn't even a matter of him controlling them or ignoring them, he did not have them at all. Spoiler alert, I don't believe him. I don't believe that he didn't have those urges at all. If he was capable of going long periods of times without

having those urges at all, then everything we know about Dennis Raider is wrong. And honestly, we don't know what to believe. I don't personally believe that. But you let me know what you think in the comments, guys. So he later explained to Dr. Ramsland that at this point, his children were teenagers and he and Paula were even more involved in their church. And the structure of family and faith once again kept him busy. And because of this, the urges to kill seem to fade. He didn't even want to break into people's houses just to steal stuff anymore. But he never stopped his bondage activities. He continued to look at photos of his victims, fantasize about them, and create new hidey holes to store his collections. Another reason I don't believe that he didn't have the urge

to kill because he was still like caving into it, right? Caving into his fantasy. sees looking at the photos of his victims that he had killed. It's not like you're just like, oh, I'm cold turkey, completely clean. I'm not even thinking about this stuff anymore. I'm really into my kids and church and being good man. No, you're still doing all of this stuff. He actually had one Heidi Holst in a locked cabinet at work. He had another one at the church that he and his family went to. There was one in the crawl space, one beneath a false bottom in the linen closet of his home, and several located in culverts across town. He even kept a high house. He even kept a hidey hole in a safe deposit box at a local bank. For years, these hidey holes helped keep

Raider's dark urges contained, allegedly according to him. But as history has already shown, those urges never stayed buried for long. By the mid-1990s, they were back and Raider started prowling again, breaking into homes, stalking women, and planning new projects. He even tried to kill multiple victims, but thankfully his plans never worked out. Then, in 1996, Raider experienced a major loss when his father died of cancer. This death devastated him. He'd always admired his dad, and now as the oldest son, he was kind of responsible for caring for his mother as she now lived alone. So he would now have less time than ever to look for victims because he's got his wife, he's got his kids, he's got his mother, he's got his job, church. There's too much

responsibility for one man who also wants to be a killer. Now around this time, there were other things changing for Rader. He told Dr. Ramsland that he knew technology was evolved. He was aware of this, of course. He paid attention to these things all the time. And as a result, more and more serial killers were being caught. Law enforcement agencies across the country were solving cold cases using new forensic tools, and that made Dennis Rader very nervous. He knew he'd left semen behind at both the Otero home and Nancy Fox's house. He also knew there was DNA under Vicki Wakerly's fingernails from when she scratched his face and nose. On top of that, Rader's fingerprints were now on file, because of his job in compliance, he had to give his fingerprints for that. So he realized that if the police ever connected the evidence from those old crime scenes to him, he'd be caught just like the others. And it was obviously an alarming thought, but there was nothing he could do to change the past. So he continued to prow for victims.

But according to him, he never killed again. Now, this is interesting because I've often thought about this as a serial killer who's, you know, performing their, their crimes throughout the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, and then the 90s hit. And then it seemed very quick that that law enforcement technology started to develop and evolve. These guys, these serial killers had to have been absolutely like in a constant state of fear and anxiety and fight or flight 24-7 all the time. And I feel like I've even gone over cases where these serial killers get caught because of DNA. And then they're like, yeah, man, I just was waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like, I knew it was coming. I knew I was going to be caught because of the

DNA and the technology. And it was just a matter of time. And every day I woke up thinking, like, hey, this could be my last day on the outside. I could be in prison tomorrow. So there kind of does give me some satisfaction that for however many years, these men had to live in fear just waiting for the day when that knock at the door would come. And they were in cuffs, you know? And everybody knew who they were and what they'd done. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said. We can never really get justice for everything they did. They're never going to feel even a slice of the pain and fear that their victims and the victims' loved ones felt. But to know that they had to live for some amount of time and just absolute fear and panic and anxiety does make me happy.

It definitely softens the blow, but it's so hard because without being these victims, I think about Bill. You talked about Bill and how he was even believed to potentially be responsible for Vicky's murder. I mean, that's something that he had to carry all those years, even though he knew the truth, but I'm sure walking around that community, he probably got some weird looks. Oh, for sure, yeah. That's tough to understand what he's going through. I don't think any of us can understand that. No, he did it. Yeah, he did it.

It was a suspicion in, because it's Wichita, that's the town that they're the living in. Not only law enforcement, but you know people were like, yeah, he did it. He did it for sure. I also find it interesting that Dennis Raiders like, all right, I'm kind of. continue like stalking and and kind of like using my old hidey holes and stuff but I'm not going to kill again according to him he never killed again I don't know if I believe that and if it's true what what does that say to you honestly I'm sitting here thinking to myself as you said that he never killed again I'm thinking there's 10 victims at this point the last one being Dolores and yeah

if nothing can be changed from the past because you said it's concerned for the fact that his DNA was there. He had given it voluntarily. And he knew that he had left DNA at the crime scenes, at least at a couple of them. And if police made the connections, he was done for, but yet you also said he knew that there was nothing he could do about those. So stopping is not going to make it any better. It doesn't make sense. It would just make you be more cautious and take different measures to not leave that type of evidence behind in the future. I also don't know why he would lie about it. Yeah, you might be more cautious, but you want to be like, oh, that's it. I am reformed now.

The impulse would still be there. And if you get caught, the police aren't going to be like, oh, you know, you only kill 10 people, so we're going to go easier on you. You'd think that someone like Dennis Raider would be like, well, I'm just going to go ham now because it wouldn't matter if I killed 10 people or 20 or 30. If I get caught, I'm caught.

Yeah, if you're caught, you're caught. The impulse isn't going to leave you. And it goes back to the question I posed earlier with him revealing that he had left his gun behind and putting these little details, in there that would whatever he's trying to accomplish, accomplish potentially, making him more human, making it seem like there's two different people carrying out these crimes. But then to say, I didn't kill anyone after that, what would be the point of lying about

that? What's 12 verse 10? If he killed more, why wouldn't you just admit it? That's my question. Like, what would be the difference? So either he's lying and he did kill more. Right. Which some people suspect there's more BTK victims out there than he has.

there could be as well. But the question is why. Or, or he stopped completely, which tells me that he can control himself and he always could have. Yeah, that seems more likely. Because I would think that if there were more, especially after, he'd probably tell us, but I think he doesn't realize what it's actually showing us, which is what you just laid out. So if he's telling us all these other details, and I can't think of a rational reason why he wouldn't just say, yeah, there was 13. Yeah, exactly. What would be the point? So either he lied and there are more victims or he did stop and that shows that he always could have stopped, which completely disregards all of his, oh, poor me, Dr. Ramsland, you know, I just couldn't control the black hat and there was a force

inside of me and I couldn't control it. Bullshit. You could because you're dead. You eventually stopped. And that is something I would like to ask his daughter, Carrie, if we get to talk to her because I know that she's still in communication with him and has at least been in the past. in communication with him. Spoiler alert, I know that she believes he killed more people. In fact, there are other drawings, and she had been working with law enforcement. She still may be working with them where there's other victims out there, there's other drawings out there, and they're trying to identify those women so they could tie them to

BTK, or at least identify them and tie them to these missing persons reports. So maybe there are other victims out there who haven't been found. And that that's the reason why he hasn't, he hasn't claimed them, maybe. Maybe their bodies were never discovered. Or maybe unsolved, unsolved crimes. And he kind of wants to hold on to that control, like have something to himself, like a hidey hole, a hidey hole in his brain. Also, hey, how about this, right?

If he gives you everything, if he tells you every victim that he's been involved with, right, that attention that he's getting where people are constantly coming and interviewing him, re-evaluating him. he loses that there's no more need for him he loses his power so he has to hold a little bit back knowing as long as they haven't connected all the dots they have to still come and talk to me they still have to pick my brain they still have to allow me to spell my bullshit because they need something from me but when they no longer do i'm irrelevant could that be the reason yeah because there have been cases where victims have been found and they're the i'm all sort of similar and then

police will go to prison yes and talk to dennis raider and be like you know is this one of yours as well, blah, so maybe he just, yeah, maybe he keeps it. And it's like, no,

I didn't kill again, guys, wink, wink, nod, not what you found other, you found other notes? You found other drawings? What? No. Because if he keeps it

where it's a little mysterious, they have to come back to him. And if he's been transparent and honest the whole time, law enforcement's more inclined to say, no, this can't be connected to him because he's told us everything.

He's told us everything. Yeah. So I agree. And it could be an aspect of control. And yeah, like I need the entertainment of people still having my name in their mouth.

Yeah. He's not going to be able to go out and kill any more from behind bars, so he has to hold on to what he's already accomplished. Yeah, I will say if you had to ask me, like, say it now. Do you believe he killed again or do you believe he killed more than he claims to have killed? My answer is yes. All right. Yeah. I agree. I don't know about after Dolores. Maybe there's some truth to that. I'd love to pick Kerry's brain on that. I think there's probably some in between, maybe even before the Oteros. I don't know. Maybe when he was traveling for his job and he was out of Wichita. Something. Something. And he. whatever reason we can't justify it he doesn't want to claim those there could have even been something in his younger days where he had done something one time and i don't know maybe someone close to him yeah he doesn't want to be accountable for that one as well who knows but maybe there's some truth after 2001 that because things were building up i don't think he stopped because he wanted to i think he just got petrified but if he has the ability to choose then he's always had

the ability to choose. And it, and it counteracts his whole, completely agree. His whole like, oh, you know, it's not me. It's just this dark, powerful, dark, powerful, demonic force inside of me, controlling me. No, that's not the case. So did X factor just go away? Yeah, X factor was like, yeah, I'm scared too, man. Yeah, we're done.

Yeah, no, I agree with you. It does, he can't have it both ways, right? Like, if he's going to say I chose to stop, then you're, you're discrediting your own, your own theory or I guess your own excuse. for why you were doing this. That you were being driven by it in some internal force. You had no control over it. Yeah.

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country new hope for solving serial killer cases. And obviously, departments like Wichita's, who had a serial killer of their own, BTK. So Rader read in the paper that Wichita Police had been inspired by the Ridgeway breakthrough and established a new task force to re-examine the BTK case. And he's probably like, I know I wanted my name in the papers before, but not like this. I did not want to read this. This has to be terrifying. It makes me so happy. So detectives told the media they were positive that BTK was responsible for at least seven murders, though they suspected his involvement in six others. That list of six included four victims they'd later learned Raider didn't kill and two that he did. And surprisingly, the ones that they thought were attributed

to BTK were not the Oteros or any of those early murders. They were, Marine Hedge and Dolores Davis. So interestingly, Vicki Wagerly's name was not included because police still believed in 2001 that her husband Bill was responsible. Yeah, man, that's terrible. So behind the scenes, the new task force was hard at work testing the DNA evidence in hopes of finally identifying who BTK was. Because the samples were limited, though, they had to be strategic. They couldn't afford to use them all on a single test. To start, they sent semen evidence from the Otero and Nancy Fox murders for geographical profiling. The results suggested that BTK likely lived or worked near the crime scenes, which was helpful,

but also something detectives already is suspected. The next logical step was to send the samples for full DNA analysis, but they weren't ready to risk it yet. Doing so could consume the whole sample, everything that they had, leaving them with nothing to retest later. And as we know, DNA technology was evolving very rapidly, and they knew that it would get better as time went on. So for now, the task force just kept digging. Now, Raider realized the investigation was closing in. So he began wrapping up everything BTK. He decided which trophies to

destroy and which to preserve. He transferred his photos, drawings, and writings onto computer disks. He's like, I better get rid of this evidence. Got to digitize it. Or put it someplace where anybody could find it and it never goes away really fully. No, I think we can all agree at this point. We're not even done. Dennis Rader was not an intelligent man. He was not smart. No, no, no, no.

He was not smart. I don't care what anybody says. He got lucky multiple times, but he was not an intelligent man. The amount of mistakes he's made, including the fact that he ended up in prison the way he did, which we're going to get to. He's a moron, honestly, not a very bright guy. He might also be thinking, hey, I know they're going to get me eventually. Like whether it's this year, next year, 10 years from now, they're going to get me. And that's an inevitable.

So I have to keep some of these things, right? Because he told Dr. Ramsland that he couldn't bring himself to destroy everything because he wanted to leave a legacy. So after he was gone, he wanted the world to know that Dennis Rader had been BTK. And that's weird to me. That's really weird. Like you think you'd want to keep your family and your children and your community from knowing who you were and what you had done. but maybe he wanted them to know the whole time. He just don't want to get in trouble for it.

So when he was dead, he was like, yeah, I want my children. I want my wife. I want the people I looked at in church every Sunday to know what I was doing and what kind of double life I was living, which is weird. To me, it actually gives us some answers to maybe some of the decisions that he made as far as taking the victim's car, walking up to witnesses and the ADT costume, all these things. We had talked about it a little bit then, but he was essentially the main character in his own movie, right? He wanted to be the villain, and he didn't want to get caught then because it wouldn't allow him to continue doing what he's doing. But all of this, the stories that he was creating and the way he was conducting himself in these individual situations was to kind of follow the movie script where he could later use this storyline to relay it to the people in the, the world like we're talking about right now and have it be something that people would be

interested in. It's unfortunate because we're giving him exactly what he wanted when you really think about it. I think he wanted normal people to be horrified by it. But I think he wanted people like him to admire him for it. Just like he admired the people he viewed as him. He's a copycat for sure. Yeah. So not like, oh, I want people to be interested in it. I want the people who are like me to find what I did and know how long I got away with it and how much I did. I want them to look up to me the way I look up to Zodiac, right? He wanted to be the Zodiac. It's funny because we talk about Zodiac a little bit throughout the series and no doubt BTK wanted to be like this person, but they just- He just wasn't smart enough to do it the same way. So like he's out here tripping

over his own gun and Zodiac is creating these decipher code situations where we're still trying to figured out to this day. Nobody can crack it. And I think the main difference is BTK's dumbass and his dumb ego wanted people to know who he is where Zodiac clearly doesn't. No, Zodiac more than likely is dead and we may never find out who he is. Yeah. There are people who believe they've identified them, but still it's not 100%. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, people did say they wanted us to cover Zodiac, so that's potential. I know. I know. We should. We should. At least it'd be someone half intelligent, although they're just as big of a monster, but at least We wouldn't be talking about them leaving their guns at the crime scene, as far as we know.

Tripping over his own gun. Yeah, it's crazy. The fact that this guy didn't get caught sooner is probably the most aggravating and frustrating thing about this entire series so far. That's what the big takeaway. That's what he said too. Yeah. So over the next few years, Raider tried to settle into a life free from BTK. And for a while, he managed to keep it under control.

But in January of 2004, the Wichita Eagle published a 30-year retrospective. on the unsolved murders linked to BTK. And as Raider read the article, he was stunned to see that the reporter suggested most people had long forgotten about BTK and the terror he once caused. And that infuriated Dennis Raider, who still believed BTK deserved to be mentioned

alongside names like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and the Green River Killer. So he made a decision. He made a decision, one though I'm sure would haunt him. But he said, I'm going to come out of retirement. I'm going to remind the world that BTK is still up. I'm not dead. I haven't stopped. All right. I haven't reformed my, my behavior. I'm still here, and you should still be afraid. But that's going to have to wait for part five, which is the final

part of this series. And trust me, you want to tune in for this? Because I think a lot of our questions and some things will be revealed to us and we'll have a bigger and better, broader a picture of who Dennis Raider was and is and why he did the things he did and why he did things the way he did. And hopefully we can talk to Carrie and get her on here and have her answer some of our questions. Yeah, that would be, that'd be the goal. We kind of let these series just organically unfold the way they're going to unfold. We never know if it's going to be three, four, five parts. It may be a separate part where we just do the interview as part of like a crime weekly news or something. We'll see. We'll see. And Derek told me we can't do two

and a half hour videos anymore. No, that's tough. It's tough on the, I'm standing. Some of you guys who are watching on YouTube can see that now I'm standing. I've been standing for the last 45 minutes. Yeah, I was doing this and I'm like, oh my God, my neck hurts. And Derek's like, oh my God, my back hurts. I just stood up and I'm like, we are a mess. We just sit here for like four hours and it's not, yeah, it's not good for the body. No, so I'll talk to Carrie. I'll see if she's available and willing to come on for a little bit. And whatever time she's willing to give us is going to be more than enough. And if for some reason, it's a two-hour interview, it'll be its own thing. And if it's a 20-minute interview, then we can maybe splice it into the part five. But I'll

work on that over the next few days. And you guys will have to tune into part five to see if if she comes on. Part five. Part five. You see, like I'm not giving it all away right now. Aren't you proud of me? I'm mysterious like BTK. Oh, my God. I just dropped my gun. Hold on. Let me pick it up. He left it behind. Oh, another thing about Dolores. he leaves the gun behind. Dolores told him I have a friend coming over. Dennis Rader's like, let me go back to the house.

Let me go back. Even though Dolores might have a friend coming over. Oh my God. He must have been in his abandoned farmhouse pouting in his bondage and his outfits for three days after that move. Just staring at his Heidi hole, punching into the air. Stupid Dennis. What a moron. That's my big takeaway.

How'd this guy not get caught? That's what BTK will be remembered for. What a pathetic excuse for. a person in general like yeah yeah he should be he should yeah he should be remembered for the fact that he was absolutely haphazard absolutely wasn't the accomplished controlled person he tried to make himself out to be and the only reason he didn't get caught is because i mean luck dumb luck and and well just the science and technology at the time too is not what if he had done what he did now he would have been caught after the oteros day one if that's the first one he did he would have been

he would have been in jail. He probably would have been caught before the Oteros because this dumb ass is just creeping around people's houses all the time. That's true too. People don't deal with that stuff anymore. They got neighborhood Facebook pages and they're like, hey, there's this weird creepy dude creeping around the neighborhood. The police would have had him in custody immediately.

Simply Safe would have been on that one. Simply safe, yeah. It would have been over for him. All right. Any final words, maybe positive words before we go into this holiday break? I think that viewing BTK as an absolute clown is the most positive thing I can come to. It's a great way. Yeah.

It's a great way. If he ever got the chance to watch this series, he's not going to hear about how, you know, it's scary to think that someone could pull this. We're laughing at him. We're not impressed with you, man. Nobody's impressed with your legacy, buddy, at all. We're using it as to make, as a means of making fun of you in a lot of ways into remembering the victims, not you. Your legacy is those pictures of you dressed in lingerie and bondaged yourself up. That's your legacy.

You're a clown. But on that, no. On that note, I'm excited about Thanksgiving. I have a question for you. Is it about food? Don't start with me. Don't start with me on food. I'm starving.

Turkey or ham? It's turkey. What? Turkey or ham on Thanksgiving? Ham is Easter. Turkey's Thanksgiving. I knew this is going to trigger you. And turkey all day of the week.

Forget ham. I don't even like ham. It's weird and the texture is weird. Turkey all day. Turkey and mashed potatoes. I don't even stuffing. Cranberry salt. None of that.

My plate is half turkey. half-mashed potatoes, and gravy poured all over everything. That's a fresh ground pepper. I don't want nothing else. And then pie, obviously. Turkey, mashed potatoes, gravy. That's it. I'm happy.

I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm cooking the turkey this year. I like turkey. I love it. But I only like the dark meat. Pause. And I actually like the turkey better after it's been in the fridge for a couple

days and I make turkey sandwiches. I do like a slice of ham on Thanksgiving. turkey sandwiches are a bomb, dude. Turkey sandwiches are bomb. Turkey, mayonnaise, salt, pepper, maybe a little stuffing on there. Here's why I think you only like the dark meat and you only like the turkey after a few days. Be careful what you say here. It's because you think the white meat is dry.

And that's because it's not being cooked properly. Wow, shots fired. I did do a fried turkey a couple years ago. A fried turkey dude, all unbeatable. Unbeatable because everything is moist and juicy. Yes. It is a lot better. And the skin's crispy and flavorful.

It is a lot better for sure. I will agree with that. For sides for me, stuffing, but I, again, you might want to stab me for this one. I'm a stovetop stuffing guy, like a box stuffing. I don't like any stuffing. I find it to be the weirdest invention ever. What are we eating here? What are we eating breadcrumbs here?

What's happening? Stovetop stuffing might be the highlight of Thanksgiving. It's bread. It's bread. It's got like celery. in it, I think. Weird, dude. With gravy on top of it.

It's like moist, soggy croutons. I like it. And who likes celery ever anyways? Celery with peanut butter? Celery with cream cheese? No, it's too stringy. I can't take that stringiness. Oh, man.

I'll take baby carrots all day over celery. All right, I'm going to get my rundown. You give you a rundown. Everyone in the comments, and on a positive note, give us your rundown. So on my plate, on Thanksgiving Day, my first plate would be couple slices of dark meat turkey with gravy, mashed potatoes with as much butter as I can possibly fit on the plate, salt pepper, no gravy on my mashed potatoes, green bean casserole, stuffing with gravy on the stuffing, and then it has to be some ridiculous biscuit or croissant.

I don't discriminate anything that's bready that I can throw butter on. That's my first plate. It's hot and bready, so the butter melts into it immediately, yeah. A couple of those. Maybe it's croissant rolls If I had to choose Maybe wild grain wants to send me Some more croissants

That might be nice for the holiday season Three days ago I ate a whole pan of croissants by myself Well they're huge too So the fact that you eat that whole plate is Because they're like airy and then they sent me That French churned butter The salted... Well that's a different level of butter too by the way

I love the butter and then for me for my drink water I know I'm weird Okay so give me your plate Let's hear it Your first plate Not your second plate It's turkey and mashed potatoes gravy all over everything.

And yeah, whatever carb thing I can butter, biscuit, bread, whatever. I don't care. I'll do that. What am I drinking? I'm drinking wine

and chocolate milk maybe. So turkey, mashed potatoes, a bread, a carb, and wine. It's a gravy. Gravy.

Okay. Now you're weird. Okay. Everyone in the comments, let us know. What's on your first plate Thanksgiving day? If you celebrate,

let us know. And my second plate, Derek, is going to be pie because. No doubt. Desert, for sure. Yeah. I'm already going to fill up the first.

So I like apple pie. My favorite pie is peach pie, but in November, you can't get ripe peaches. So it's apple pie. I don't like pumpkin pie. I don't. I'm not a big pumpkin pie either. I like pecan pie. I love pecan pie with the chocolate chips on top.

Have you ever had that? I have not had chocolate chips on it. Why are you doing this to me? Now I'm going to have to add chocolate chips. So it's the pecan pie filling. And then they put on top of the filling before the pecans, they put a layer of chocolate chips. Then they put the pecans on top and then they bake it.

That sounds phenomenal. It's so good. Oh, sweet potatoes. I didn't mention sweet potatoes. Someone's going to come from me and I'm going to be mad about it. I do sweet potato casserole with marshmallows on top. What? I hate sweet potatoes.

What? Why are we putting marshmallows on sweet potatoes? Why are we doing this? What is that? I don't ever get it. I don't get it. Oh, my God. I hate sweet potato fries.

Why are they the sweet? I don't like it. Wow, the slander. I know. I know. I mean regular mashed potatoes. Guys, go easy on her. She doesn't know.

Because I make my mashed potatoes right. Tons of cream, tons of butter. I put sour cream in my mashed potatoes. Is it any other way? They're so bomb. Listen, sometimes people make mashed potatoes, and I'm like, what is this? They're dry and they're lumpy. I can't do it.

All right. So we want to hear from you guys. What is your go-to Thanksgiving plate? We'll be thinking about you next week. We'll be back with a new episode, the week. After that, it'll be the following Monday after Thanksgiving. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. And we will see you soon.

Bye. Thank you.