Crime Weekly - S3 Ep372: Meredith Kercher & Amanda Knox | From Witnesses to Suspects to Prisoners (Part 3)

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

In September 2007, 20-year-old American college student Amanda Knox moved to Perugia, Italy to study abroad and experience life on her own. She settled into a stone villa with three other young women and quickly began building friendships with her new roommates, forming a particularly close bond with 21-year-old British exchange student Meredith Kercher.Just weeks later, on November 2, Amanda would find herself standing outside that same home as police and paramedics rushed inside. Not fluent in Italian, she didn’t fully understand what was happening - only that Meredith had been found murdered in the villa they shared. Despite having no clue what was going on, Amanda became the focus of the murder investigation within hours. And what followed would become one of the most controversial criminal cases of the modern era, marked by intense scrutiny, global media coverage, and sharply divided opinions about guilt, innocence, and how justice is pursued when the world is watching.Try our coffee! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www.ThePetsTable.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY55 for 55% off your first box PLUS 10% off your next two!2. https://www.Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get FREE shipping and 365-Day Returns!3. https://www.FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Get 50% off your first box and FREE breakfast for one year!4. https://www.LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 20% off your first order!

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasser. So we're diving into part three of the Meredith Kircher, Amanda Knox case. And I will kind of give you a quick update of where we are so far. To summarize really quickly what we talked about in the last two parts. So on the evening of November 1st, 2007, 21-year-old British exchange student Meredith Kircher spent time with friends watching a movie before returning to the Perugia Village. she shared with three other young women. By the afternoon of November 2nd, Meredith had been found brutally murdered inside her locked bedroom. Italian police would soon come to believe that more than just one person was involved in that the people closest to Meredith were not just witnesses, but suspects. Detectives began focusing on Meredith's roommate, Amanda Knox, and her new boyfriend, Rafael Solicito.

In the days that followed Meredith's murder, the couple spoke with investigators repeatedly, retracing their steps and answering questions, believing they were helping police understand what had happened. But by November 5th, detectives had grown increasingly suspicious, and they asked Raphael to come to the police station for more questioning by himself, alone. But then Amanda went with him because she was too scared to stay at his flat alone. That's why she said she went with him, not to watch him, not to make sure he didn't say anything that you shouldn't have, because she didn't want to stay at his flat alone. And neither of them realized that by morning, they would be under arrest. So this is where we're picking up.

And this is where it kind of gets confusing. And the waters get very muddy. And I can't wait to hear your take on this because I know you're not familiar with this. But I did give a little spoiler, a little hint. You did give a little sneak peek. That they're going to kind of say things to the police that later they're going to be like, I don't know why I said that. There's definitely, I mean, my big takeaways from last part and the last two parts, I guess, are to me, the robbery.

was definitely staged. I don't think there's any truth to that. I think whoever is involved, set that up after the fact. I think there's a familiarity and a comfortability with that area at that time in that particular apartment where the perpetrator would not only know the layout of an apartment and where each person lived in that apartment, but also comfortability from the fact of knowing they could do whatever they need to do like staging the scene after the fact without worrying about someone coming home. So to me, those are the big things. And also, I'm not trying to be funny here, but the feces in the toilet is also to me significant as well. And I think we both agreed that we don't think the person who entered the villa did so by scaling the wall and breaking the window in one of the roommates' rooms.

We think that they were probably let in because that whole, yeah, I guess you could climb the wall and do it. But with a large rock and climb the wall with a large rock. and climb the wall with a large rock, you're going to break the window, and then Meredith inside the apartment is not going to be alerted that someone now just broke the window and is scaling the wall and trying to come in where she would have had ample amount of time to exit the apartment as this person's coming in. So the element of surprise would be completely gone. There's no other signs of forced entry. And there were a couple comments that didn't completely understand what we were trying to say, but it's pretty simple. If the rummaging of the

clothing in Filomena's room was done after the break-in, then the clothes would be on top of the object used to break in because the break-in, the breakage of the window would occur before rummaging through her belongings. And therefore, unless they're walking around with the rock after they get inside while they're searching that room, the rock would be on the ground and then everything that was thrown on the floor after coming into the house would be on top of said rock. And yet that's not the case. What we were describing is that it looked like Filomena's room had been gone through and that her clothes were all over the floor. And from what we know, that wasn't the condition of the room, or I'm sure Philomena would

have come out and said, yeah, that's how the room was. And yet that rock was on top of all of those belongings. And the rock had had some sort of like paper around it, meaning whoever grabbed it didn't want their fingerprints on it. Yeah, or their DNA. Are you really scaling a wall? That could be the, that could be someone from the outside or someone who belongs there, But it definitely was the person who went in there to stage it to look like they'd broken in.

But they're not going to scale a wall holding the rock that's in paper and then throw the rock through the window. And then the paper's going to stay intact. Because if you look at the pictures, the paper's sort of like half around the rock. But is the paper going to stay snugly around that rock after it's thrown through the window? Probably not. So it looks like it was just placed there after the crime was committed because someone was like, hey, I got to make it look like somebody did this who didn't have access to this flat. Right. And from what we know, nothing was really missing other than Meredith's key. They found her phones and the key's missing. So that we have to believe at that point that this random person who had no connection to this apartment prior went in there, killed Meredith, knew enough to know that locking her door from the outside was not uncommon. And they knew where the key was, knew what that key belonged to, locked the door, took the key with them and then disposed of it later. Yeah, or kept it. Why go through all that?

Yeah, or captow. We don't know. Or kept it as a souvenir, absolutely. But they got rid of the phones. My belief is that they took the phones and they took the key because they needed the key to lock the door and they disposed of the phone, the phones at one location and the key somewhere else, hoping that no one would ever find it. The phones were easy to find because you could track them. The key would literally be a needle in a haystack. And the phones should have technically been needle in a haystack because if they hadn't decided to get rid of them in someone's backyard. Yeah.

You know, and they throw them into like a river or something or down in the sewer, they probably never would have been found. But this looked like somebody who was like, hey, I don't want to be walking around with these things for too long. So I'm just going to get rid of them as soon as I can. And that's why a nearby neighbor found them in their backyard and called the police. Without that familiarity of what can be tracked, maybe the thought was, oh, even if the phone's off, they could still find a way to track it. And let's say they go back to an apartment or a residence that law enforcement is aware of, or. that ties back to someone they've already identified, that ain't good. Or they can track the person's path as they walk with the phones, pull surveillance cameras

from businesses, homes, streets, whatever, and figure out who it is. Well, that should have been done either way, right? I mean, surveillance cameras from that whole entire area should have been pulled. But to me, it's, I don't want to sit here and be like, oh, it's, I don't know how that it wouldn't be automatic. But even law enforcement has said that they believe that the robbery was staged. Nobody is disputing that. everyone is on the same page that the robbery element of this is contradicted multiple times within

that crime scene and therefore it's not what occurred. Exactly. So we can kind of agree, probably didn't scale the wall, probably set it up to look like a robbery, which means this was personal in some way. They came in through the front door. And if there's no forced entry, that means they were let in or came in voluntarily. Like they were allowed inside the apartment. Now there is a world where it could be a stranger, right? I thought about it. about this when we got done recording. I don't think this is likely, but there is a possibility that someone came to the door, knowing Meredith was alone, maybe they followed her home, presented themselves as law enforcement or a delivery person, who knows? Or someone who knew of her,

but she didn't know of them. That's what I'm saying. Someone where her looking out the door out the window wouldn't recognize this person, but they presented themselves as someone who you'd be willing to at least open the door to. And then once they opened the door, Once Meredith opened the door, that's when they were led inside and that's when whatever happened happened. But to me, this wouldn't be someone that's a complete stranger, to your point, because it would have to be someone who knew the layout and where Meredith's room was and also that no one else would be coming back.

That's where you lose me as far as complete stranger theory. Right. Kind of like Brian Coburger, right? We know he was watching the Idaho house. He was kind of aware of who lived there, their comings and goings, et cetera. and I think if somebody kind of knew that Meredith would be alone that night, it's because they had been watching that flat for quite some time, maybe even a few days.

Yeah. And they kind of saw the roommates leave, not come back, saw her come home, nobody else was there. But here's the problem with that one, too. Amanda was there. Amanda was going and coming from that house multiple days. So if you had been watching that house, you wouldn't know for certain what time Amanda's going to come home at.

She could come home any minute. And so for me, to be in that apart, and doing what you're doing, not only the murder itself, but then the aftermath of like staging the scene, somehow this person knew Amanda wasn't coming home anytime soon. Either they knew she was at Raphael's or they thought she was going to be at work. Yes, they may have known she was going to be at work, but I mean, even Amanda herself didn't really know she wasn't coming home that night. Exactly. Yeah. But that's my point. It's just, it's too, too much of a coincidence that this person would feel comfortable enough to go in there, do the crime. We see

that all the time, unfortunately, right? And it looks like it would have taken quite a while, too. This would be a quick in and out thing. Yeah, multiple rooms. The actual murder itself, which looks like, you know, that kind of didn't, didn't wrap up very quickly. Right. The staging of the scene, having to go outside and get the rock, having to, yeah, rummage through different people. There's so much here. And then I can't wait to talk more about the feces in the toilet because if it's not Amanda's, if it's not Meredith's and it's someone else's, then that would indicate that not only did this person come into the apartment and they were led in by Meredith, but there was at least initially some comfort there where this person was roaming around the

apartment, maybe even having conversations with Meredith and had the right to be there at that point and use the facility. Yeah. So there's, and we got to, there's got to be a DNA test for that for the feces. Yes. You know, you have to roll people out. You have to see if anybody matches it. It kind of makes me feel like the person came in as a friend, as somebody who wasn't,

viewed as being dangerous by Meredith. And then while having a conversation with this person, she's saying, oh, one of my roommates is spending the night of her boyfriends, one of my roommates is out of town, Amanda's at work. She's probably going to spend the night of Raphael's because that's what happens when they're together. She hasn't really come home since they met a week ago. So she's probably not kind of had given him this information. You make a great point right there that I think is worth really highlighting because when I

keep saying familiarity and comfortability, it doesn't have to be long term. It doesn't have to be someone who's been, you know, around these people for months. It could be instantaneous, right? Like you just said, Meredith meeting this person, inviting them in and sharing too much information. Not thinking that they were a threat, yeah. And now that becomes familiar with the area and also a comfortability knowing that based on what your victim just told you, nobody else is coming back that night. Or they knew who else lived there. Maybe they all kind of knew this person.

And he was like, well, where's Meredith tonight? Or where's Amanda tonight? or where's Philomena tonight? Where are they at? Just like asking and then she's like, oh, just not thinking, oh, Philomena's with her boyfriend, et cetera, et cetera, and kind of giving that information. Because how else would they know how much time they had

and that they wouldn't be, like you said, somebody walks in while they're mid-murder or mid-staging of the scene. Yeah, very weird. This poses another issue, though, right? Another issue now, and we're just, we're breaking us down. We're in the episode, by the way, guys.

We're talking about it. The other issue that we have now is if there's no communication, between Amanda and Meredith to let Meredith know that Amanda is not coming home that evening, even if Meredith volunteered that information to someone, she would be operating under the assumption that after work, Amanda would be coming home, right? Because we know Amanda was texted by her boss, right? But from what, from what you've told me so far, Amanda never relayed that to Meredith saying, hey, I don't have work tonight. I didn't need me. I'm going to stay at Raphael's place. So Meredith wouldn't be aware of that.

So again, she can't divulge information she doesn't know. So how would this person know that Amanda and her boyfriend wasn't going to walk in at any moment? Wheels are turning. The wheels are turning. This part's very difficult and it keeps getting me. If it's not Amanda, then it has to be somebody who knows nobody else is coming home and how do they know that? And that's where the sticking point is where it's like, well, who could that be? Right.

And a lot of people do think it's her and a lot of people don't. And as we're in part three right now, I can honestly tell you, not for the sake of just retention here as far as this case. I don't know. I truly don't know. I'm still in that going back and forth place. And usually at this point, I'm leaning a certain way, even though I'm not saying it out loud, it's wide open for me. No leaning. No leaning.

All right. So we know what Amanda and Raphael said during the police interviews, but we only know because of what the police said they said. The interviews were not recorded. So keep that in mind. All right, Raphael's questioning began first at 10.40 p.m. on November 5th, detectives asked him to start at the beginning and retell what had happened on November 1st and second. According to the police, Raphael said that on November 1st, at around 6 p.m., he and Amanda went into the town center, Piazza Grimana, together. Though when pressed for more details, he said he couldn't remember what they had done while they were there or how long they had stayed.

Now, according to detectives, Raphael said he went back to his flat without Amanda. She had plans to go to Le Sheik, where she worked, to meet friends at around 9 p.m. He said he sat at his computer, smoked a joint, and spent time online. Then at around 11 p.m., his father called his flat's landline. At that point, Amanda still hadn't come back, so when Raphael stayed online for two more hours, he only stopped when Amanda arrived at around 1 a.m. He told police he couldn't remember how Amanda was wrong. dressed when she returned or whether they had sex before going to bed. Now, I don't think I need to

tell you that this version of events is completely different than what Raphael and Amanda both told police in earlier statements. Before Raphael had said Amanda returned to his flat with him that evening, now he was saying that she did not. So when detectives confronted him about the discrepancy, Raphael told them, quote, I told you a lot of bullshit in my earlier statement because she'd convinced me that her version of what happened was right, and I didn't think of the inconsistencies. End quote. So now basically Raphael's throwing Amanda under the bus. Before, Raphael and Amanda are like, hey, we were together, and then she didn't have to go to work,

and then we made some food, we got high, we turned our phones off so we wouldn't be interrupted, we watched a movie, we had sex, we went to bed. Now Raphael's like, that woman was not here until after 1 a.m., I don't even remember if we had sex. I was on the computer getting high. Now, once again, I'm sure all of the... of this can be confirmed. Did Raphael's father call the flat? We should be able to figure that out. Is there evidence that Raphael was surfing the internet on that night instead of, you know, cuddled in bed with Amanda watching a cute movie? Where is the supporting evidence lie? Does it lie

with his new version of events or with his previous version of events? Well, this is obviously significant because I just got done saying and I had not read the script that our belief is that the murder more than last. We all believe it happened the night before and not the day of that she was found. And I just said, oh, maybe between 9 and 11 p.m. because whoever went in there would have at least thought that Amanda would be home by 11. But now you're telling me that there's a possibility that Amanda was at that right. We know she wasn't at LaSheek. So where was she? If she wasn't at LaSheik, and she wasn't with Raphael from nine from he didn't say what time but let's say they were at this square or whatever wherever they were until seven eight p.m. He says he doesn't remember how long

or when they left. But let's say that they left around 8.39 o'clock. She left and went somewhere. Where did she go? Because she didn't come back until 1 a.m. Well, she told him. She told him she's meeting up with friends, right? But at LaSheik. Yeah. But she wasn't nine. But she wasn't there. So if she wasn't there, where was she? And she wasn't there at 11 when his father called, according to Raphael's new statement. So that's a problem. That's a problem for Amanda. It doesn't look good at minimum.

And then you also have to ask the question, why would Raphael lie about this? This is his girlfriend. Why would he throw her under the bus? Why would he lie the first time or why would he lie the second time? I understand why he would lie the first time. I don't understand why he would throw her under the bus at this time. Maybe he's realizing, oh, this doesn't look good. She could be involved.

Is that what he's thinking? And he's trying to save himself because he knows he didn't do anything wrong? That could be. But if she was with you the whole time, why would you even think that could be possible? Well, yeah, agreed. And here's the other angle. There's so many variables here. I know I apologize if I'm throwing people up, but this is how my brain works. Now, we're looking at from the perspective of, oh, man, Amanda wasn't there from 9 to 11. Amanda wasn't there from 9 to 1. 9 to 1, but here's the other way to spin this. Raphael wasn't with Amanda from 9 to 1. And this did seem to be a crime. I mean, maybe the Italian police didn't agree, but we agree. based on the sexual aspect of the crime. It seemed to be a crime that a man would commit more than a woman.

I agree. And the police are saying they did it together was more than one person. Right. So just putting it out there that I'm not sitting here saying, oh, this is really bad for only Amanda, because we're going based on what Raphael is telling us. Is he telling us this? Because he's giving himself an out?

I don't know. That's my first thoughts. And I'll shut up now. So then we go to the next morning, November 2nd. So as for what happened that following morning, Raphael's account remained pretty unchanged and matched what Amanda had already told the police. He said Amanda left his flat that morning to shower and pack because they're going away for the weekend. Then returned around 1130 a.m. visibly upset and told him what she had seen at the villa.

So the two of them went back to the villa together. Raphael saw the broken glass in Filomena's room, blood in the bathroom. And when they couldn't get Meredith to respond, he tried to force her bedroom door open, but he was unsuccessful. He said he then called his sister, who was a police officer, and she told him to call the police, which he did before the postal police arrived to talk about Meredith's phones. So Raphael's being questioned. Amanda, she's sitting in the waiting room. At around 11 p.m., one of the detectives stepped out of the interview room to get water and noticed Amanda in the waiting room. And she's doing weird things. He said that she was doing splits, followed by a cartwheel.

The detective later told author John Follion, who wrote a death in Italy, the definitive account of the Amanda Knox case, that they were shocked by what they saw. Later, when the same detective saw Amanda again, they said Amanda was stretching and doing yoga. The detective told her that the police station was not a place for yoga. We've dealt with this in some cases, people who actually ended up being guilty, so I don't know if it's the best sort of comparison to make. Like, they were guilty, but, you know. singing in the interrogation room, doing all sorts of movements with their body, trying to, I guess, I think what it is is it's a form of stimming. You're trying to kind of get the energy out. You're anxious. You're full of energy. You're trying to move. I do this stuff. So it's hard for me to

say, oh, that's weird. This is something, maybe not splits because I can't do a split. But maybe probably not a cartwheel either. I'm going to be honest with you. I probably wouldn't not be doing a cartwheel inside a police station in the waiting room. But stretching, maybe moving my body around, I just couldn't be, I wouldn't be able to sit there still knowing everything that was going on and kind of feeling like maybe I'm a suspect, maybe my boyfriend's a suspect, like what's going on. I don't really understand here. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to sit there still and do nothing and just wait, but probably not a cartwheel. No, no, no, not at all. I think we can on one hand say that everyone deals with stress differently, but we could also all acknowledge that doing

cartwheels in the police station while being interviewed about your friend's murder is not right. It's disrespectful, actually. To be in there doing that, that's not, there's a decorum there where you, you know, you're in there, you're in a public area. You shouldn't be doing cartwheels as a grown woman. Wrong place, wrong time. Sorry.

And if Amanda admitted to that, she might have a explanation for it. did. Yeah. She's never denied it. She said, candidly, I still don't agree with it. She said she was sitting hunched over so long and she wanted to stretch. I get that. Stretching's fine. Stretching's fine. Yeah. Cartwheels. Too much. And splits. Yeah. It's a little much. It's too much. Yeah. For sure. Once again, I cannot really judge her for this because I would do it. But I also have a lot of self-awareness. And I always think that everybody's looking at me and thinking she's weird. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that specifically out of like being self-conscious that people are going to look at me. and think I'm weird out of experience. But she was really young.

So maybe she didn't realize yet that people saw her as weird. I don't know. And that's fine. But yeah, I wouldn't necessarily look at the cartwheels as like, oh, she's guilty. But I would absolutely, if I were the detective, be like, hey, listen, it's not appropriate. Yeah, like, where's yourself awareness? What are you doing here? This isn't the place to be doing that.

So not long after seeing Amanda doing yoga, another detective asked her to come into an office and speak with him. Amanda agreed. Then asked when her boyfriend Raphael would be finished and she was told it would be soon. The detective then asked Amanda to go through her phone and write down the names of men that Meredith knew. And Amanda did as she was asked. She listed all the men she could remember. At one point, she mentioned a man who had spent time with the guys in the basement. Remember the four Italian guys in the basement? She didn't know his name or number, only that he played basketball with those guys. Detectives would later determine that she was referring to the Baron, who we discussed briefly in part two. If you recall, one of the basement roommates, Stefano, had mentioned. mentioned the baron during his interview. He described the baron as a fit South African man who was attracted to Amanda.

Stefano couldn't recall the man's real name, but he did remember that he'd once come over to the flat, drank heavily, used the toilet, and didn't flush it. So obviously, I just kind of want to get a little detail in here because everybody's asking and saying, why haven't we talked about the man who this crime would eventually be attributed to? So we're going to get into it in more detail, much more in depth in the next episode. But at this point, I will let you know the baron is Rudy Gidey, who would later be convicted of killing Meredith. And there's also people saying if somebody's been convicted of this, why do they keep saying it's unsolved?

Well, because as we're going through this, Derek doesn't know what's going to come next. So we're kind of taking it as in where the investigators on the case looking through the evidence as it's coming. And there is still, or there are still questions as to whether Rudy Gidey even is the person that was responsible. He says he's not. There's no surprise there. And Meredith's family, they still do seem to have some kind of problem with Amanda Knox. They don't speak to her. They don't really speak well of her.

So there does seem to be a disparity between now who's been convicted of this crime and, who a lot of people still think may have done it. So that's kind of where we're going. I don't want to get too out of myself or say that for sure Rudy didn't do it. But there are people that believe he didn't do it, including himself, of course. He says he didn't do it. So actually, we're going to take a quick break. And then we're going to come right back.

And we're going to say what happened with Amanda in this interview room and what would continue to happen with her in this interview room because it gets bad. We'll be right back. Okay, Derek, let's talk about something serious again. I was going to say, let's talk about something serious for a second. But all we talk about is something serious because our dogs absolutely judge us. They definitely do. They definitely do, especially at meal time.

You can see the disappointment on their faces when you hand out the kibble. When you just put it in the bowl, they're like, what is this? Yeah, just kibble again. And, I mean, I always think that too. Maybe we're just projecting, but I keep putting their dinner down at night and I'm like, oh, I has to suck to be a dog because this stuff looks terrible. And you know your dog deserves better than kibble, but you have no idea where to start. So let us help you out.

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Once again, that's the Petstable.com. and use code Crime Weekly 55. Okay, so while Amanda was writing out names for the one detective, Prosecutor Giuliano McNini was asked to come to the station to monitor what was going on. In my opinion, he was not asked to monitor. He came in to strong arm and to kind of keep these detectives on both Amanda and her boyfriend, Raphael. So at approximately 1.45 a.m., three detectives began questioning Amanda. Now, what they say happened and what Amanda says happened differs.

We'll start with the police account, then go to Amanda's. According to the detectives, an interpreter was presented, and Amanda was offered snacks and drinks throughout the interview, which lasted for around two hours. Because Amanda had previously told detectives she hadn't gone to Le Sheik on the evening of November 1st, they asked her more about that. Because remember, Raphael has said that she went there to meet friends around nine. Amanda then told them she received a message from her boss, Patrick, at 818. p.m. saying the bar wouldn't open because there was no customers unless she wasn't needed that night. Amanda said she typed out a reply but never sent it, choosing instead to turn her phone off, which I do think is weird. Why wouldn't you reply and say, okay, thanks, talk to you soon instead of

just turn your phone off. I can get sending the reply. I got your message. Thank you so much. I'm going to actually go to bad early and then turning your phone off so they can't call you in if they changed their mind later. Right. But also, if Patrick was telling you the bar was closing because there was no customers, why would you be afraid that they would call you in later? It's one thing if there's a few bartenders on and they're like, we only need one tonight, stay home.

But if he's saying the bar is closing, then there really isn't a chance that you're going to be called in later. And people did give us some indication of what All Saints Day was to people in Italy and Catholics in general. And they were like, why would you think people would be drinking on All Saints Day? It's more of like a Catholic holiday. Well, there's not just Catholics in Italy, right? I mean, I know Italy's a Catholic. It's a public holiday. Somebody's drinking.

Yeah. Like, there's a Protestant or a person who's not religious. Maybe they still want to go to a bar. It's still, you know, it's still a night. And people still drink. So, but, you know, still, I understand that on this day, Catholics typically mourn the dead and think about their loved ones who have passed, kind of like a day of the dead thing and they're not out drinking. But also as an Italian who comes from a family that, you know, a father that immigrated from Italy, they drink all the time.

Funerals, morning days, birth days. People process their days off differently, you know. Well, maybe they're just not drinking at a bar. Maybe they're drinking at home. So then the detectives looked through Amanda's phone. And when they did, they did not see the message from Patrick at 8.18 p.m. This is a problem. That's the only reason Amanda didn't go into work that night, and it's the only reason why she didn't really have a concrete alibi because she wasn't at work. So they said all they could see was a drafted message from Amanda to Patrick, which was timestamped 835, and when translated into English, it read, quote, sure, see you later, have a good evening, exclamation point, end quote. So they see Amanda's response to Patrick that was in the drafts, but they don't see the message from him saying, you don't have to come into work today. Now to the detectives, obviously this stood out immediately.

See you later was not a phrase Italians typically used casually and they interpreted it literally. As Amanda saying she was planning to see Patrick later that night. To them, this suggested she was lying about not going to Leishik. And then with Raphael's statement that she did go to Leashique, they were like, okay, nobody told you not to come in and you're telling your boss you're going to see him later. they didn't get, I guess, that see you later in the United States is like, I'll see you later when I see you. I hope at some point you're going to tell me that they talk to the boss. Yes. I mean, because we're speculating a lot here, but you just ask the source.

Yeah. So according to the police, when the message was shown to her, Amanda lifted her hands to her head, covered her ears and began crying. And that's when she shouted, quote, it's him. It's him. He did it. I can hear it. End quote. Shaking her head, she added, quote, he's bad.

He's bad. End quote. All right. So Amanda told the detectives that she'd been at Raphael's flat when Patrick's message came through. After reading it, she told Raphael she needed to go to work and later met Patrick near Piazza Grimana. They went back to the villa, but due to smoking weed earlier that day, Amanda couldn't remember whether Meredith was already home when they got there or if she arrived later after they'd already been there. Amanda told detectives that Patrick, her boss, had sex with Meredith. She said, quote, he was infatuated with her, but I don't remember if Meredith. was threatened first. I remember confusedly that he's the one who killed her, end quote. As soon as Amanda finished saying, Patrick killed Meredith, detectives ended the interview. She then stretched out across several chairs and fell asleep.

Later, Amanda would describe her interview very differently when she spoke to a judge, and we have audio, which we're going to play now, and then break that down further once it's finished. I want to clarify what it is that it happened to me in the, um, in the, um, in the, um, in the the day that I made declarations that didn't make sense, that changed. After the discovery of Meredith, I had spent days in collaborating with the police to try to just give as much information as I could. The day of the fifth, I wasn't called to the questure, Raphael was called, but I decided

to go with him to keep him company, but also because I was scared to be alone. When I was there, I had just planned to wait, but the police came into the waiting room and wanted to talk to me more about what I knew, people that I knew who would come to my house. I gave them phone numbers. After that, they moved me into another room and started asking me the same questions what I'd done that night asking me for times, exact time periods, exactly what I did. And it was difficult for me because it was in the middle of the night that we had been called. I was very tired and I was also quite stressed out.

And I, so I, they kept asking me the same questions. time periods, exactly sequences of actions, and I did my best to give the same information over and over and over again. At a certain point, the police began to be more aggressive with me. They called me a liar, and they told me that I was, of all the things that I had kept saying over and over again, they said that I was lying. They said that they threatened that I was going to go in prison for 30 years because I was hiding something. But I felt I felt completely stressed out, blocked because I wasn't lying.

I didn't know what, I didn't know what to do. Then they started pushing on me the idea that I must have said. seen something and forgotten about it. They said that I was traumatized. I didn't understand. I became really confused. I tried to re-express, re-explain what I had done, the fact that I didn't have to go to work. At that point, they, I gave them my phone so they could see that I didn't have to, I received, okay, because I received an SMS. And for that reason, they kept repeating to me that I was lying about this SMS. I was confused. So what ended up happening was the fact that I had been pressured so much.

And I was hit in the back of the head by one of the police officers who said she was trying. to make me help me remember the truth. I was terrified because I didn't know. I didn't know what to do anymore. So what ended up happening was they said, take me to jail and because of all this SMS, because all this confusion, they kept saying, you sent this thing to Patrick, we know that you left the house, we know.

I just said his name. It wasn't because I was trying to say anything. I just said it because they were, After that, at a certain point I asked if I should have had a lawyer and they said that it would have been worse for me. So they asked me to make declarations about what I remembered, but I told them that I didn't remember anything like this. Because I was confused. What I remembered was different from what they were asking me to say. they asked me for details and I didn't have details to give them

so they just asked me questions and I just responded as from I was stressed so what I went in that moment that I was trying to think of something else

my memories of just random events of seeing Patrick for instance one night or I wrote these memorials that everyone's putting so much pressure on only because I wanted to express the fact that I was confused. I felt like no one was listening to me anymore. And so I wrote these to express the fact that I didn't,

I wasn't for sure about anything anymore. I want to stress the fact that I'm in. Meredith was my friend and I would never have hurt her. I'm not the person that the prosecutor says I am. And that's all I want to say. Thank you. All right. So it's always bothered me that Amanda threw Patrick under the bus, even though later she's like,

yeah, I knew that didn't happen, but they were being aggressive and putting pressure on me. And, you know, she said in the documentary that the detective, like, hit her in the back of the head. And he was like, remember, remember. And, like, hit her in the back of the head. And that obviously threw her for a loop. But in Italy, you still are allowed to ask for a lawyer. They don't sit you down and read you your Miranda rights the same way or, you know, tell you when you're sitting in an interrogation room, hey, you have the right to a lawyer. And technically, she wasn't under arrest at that time.

She was still considered a witness, not a suspect. The police said that it wasn't until she, you know, started making these statements that they considered. her a suspect. I don't believe that because they had already talked to Raphael who had told them, hey, she actually wasn't with me. No doubt. I think by the time they were talking to her, they saw her as a suspect. And then she said later, she had asked, you know, what if I'd got a lawyer? And they said that would have been worse for you. But I would have, by the point I started feeling like, hey, they're being aggressive. I would have said, I want a lawyer. And that way, there's somebody who's legally on my side who can sort of consult with me on what to do next. I don't understand

making a false statement that completely implicates someone else who's done nothing wrong for you, but they gave you a job. And I don't see why that would be something you would do if it wasn't true and why you would think that that would look good on you because if you knew it wasn't true and you didn't witness that, they're eventually going to figure that out. And then it's just going to look like you lied, right? Again. So what did you think of what her excuse or her justification for throwing Patrick under the bus was? Well, I agree. with you as far as I don't understand why she would throw Patrick under the bus. I also believe that more than likely a detective was slapping her in the head. I can absolutely see that.

And that's uncalled for and not professional. And, you know, I think we can all agree on that. Here's what I'm going to say. And it's going to sound a little heartless. But it's the truth. It's how I feel. Okay. We're not talking about six months a year later where she's having to remember what happened on these particular nights. And we're not talking about a week period. We're talking about one specific day and one specific night. That's it. I'm hearing two. much of I don't remember and I'm confused. It's too much for me. It's not that complicated. You originally told law enforcement that you were with your boyfriend all night. Now your boyfriend's coming in here and telling us that you weren't with him. And now suddenly you don't remember a lot.

You don't remember anything really. And I'm not saying that Amanda is responsible for this. But just up to this point in the story, I don't know how any of you would expect me not to hear this and hear the inconsistencies in both of their statements and not at least at minimum think something doesn't smell right. Yeah. So according to her, when they first brought her in there, she just kept saying the same thing over and over again. They were asking her the same questions.

She was responding in the same way, but it kept going. So basically she was feeling that's not good enough. Like my response to them isn't good enough. But let's go back further, Steph. She originally told detectives she never left the boyfriend's flat, right? How do you mess that up? If you didn't leave there, you would know.

And if you did leave there, regardless of how high or drunk you were, you would at least know, I wasn't in the best condition, but I left for a little bit. But she deliberately told them something different. And now the question becomes why. And now in hindsight, she's realizing that the story is falling apart. She has her boyfriend coming in here and telling them she wasn't with me for multiple hours. And they're saying they don't see the text from Patrick on her phone. They don't see the text from Pat. She's saying there was an SMS.

I have to assume there's something because she's doing this press release or whatever, this news, conference, but overall, at minimum, I'm hearing a lot of, I don't remember, I'm confused. Amanda Knox was not six years old. She was a woman, a grown woman who was living alone in a foreign country. I agree. You're old enough to recall what you were doing. It wasn't like you were obliterated out in the middle of a bar scene. You smoked a little bit.

You did whatever you did. I can tell you right now, I've never been that bad where I wouldn't remember where I was, like as far as what house I was at. So I have a problem with this. And I'm not saying I truly don't believe. I still don't believe she's the offender here, if I'm being honest. I don't know what's going on, but she's hiding something. She's not telling the truth.

Now, is that because she is involved or is it because she was doing something else that she doesn't want Raphael to know about? Like, was she seeing another man? Does she have nothing to do with Meredith's death? That is also possible. But to me, she is not telling the truth in doing this press release later, this conference, and still saying, I was concerned. I don't remember. That's not good enough for me. I agree. And I, this has always, always, always bothered me because now you've made up a whole story, right? You met with Patrick.

That's right. I smoked some weed. Then you went and he was infatuated with Meredith. And, and then, you know, you can't remember was Meredith asking. Yeah. So it's pretty specific. Like you had to create this whole other story and why? Because if you kept answering the questions and you were answering them consistently and they kept saying, no, that's not good enough. And asking the. same questions and then getting aggressive with you. At that point, I don't care who you are. You say, I don't know what else to tell you guys. I've told you everything I can. I want a lawyer because there's a miscommunication here. Maybe you guys don't understand, but I've told you everything I can. She's saying that they're telling her she's lying. So they told her that so much that eventually she started to feel like maybe I am. And I'm okay with that. False confessions happen. Here's the problem. I'm going to be repetitive here. It doesn't excuse you initially under no pressure telling law enforcement a flat out lie, telling them that you were somewhere where you

weren't. And that's a problem. That doesn't go. You're saying Raphael's apartment? Rafe, saying initially when she's a witness. Listen, Raphael's going to come out later and say, oh, she was with me. And I don't know why I said that during the police interview. And we're going to get there. But I'm saying right now in the story, if I'm the investigating officer, you originally told me under no duress that you were with your boyfriend all night, that you got a call from work or an SMS from work. You didn't have to go in. So you guys decided to say in, watch movies, have sex and go to sleep. Now I bring your boyfriend in. He's saying you left. You're coming in after him and confirming yeah, I did leave for a little bit. And I was with this boss of mine. He liked my roommate, Meredith.

He had sex with her and he did it. I could go along with the whole duress, false confession at the end there. But why did you lie to us initially? Why is your boyfriend telling us you're not there now? So you're saying from the detective's point of view? Yes. Now it's looking like I do need to treat you like a suspect. Of course. You're not making sense. And your whereabouts for when this murder happened are on account for at this point. You are a 20 year old woman, very intelligent.

And from what you've told us, you were not out partying all night. I don't know. I don't remember. I don't think anybody's buying that. Anybody listening or watching this right now is buying that. I don't remember what happened a week ago or a couple days ago. or a couple days ago. Come on, Stephanie.

I don't recall where I was? We're not even asking you to remember the specific time that you got there. We're just saying, where were you? I was with my boyfriend all night at his place. Oh, now I don't remember if I left. What? So that's where I'm at right now.

It's extremely frustrating. But what do you think about Raphael saying that she wasn't there, even though later he'd come out and say she was and I just made those statements because I was under stress? Here's what we know for certain. Raphael and Amanda are lying at some point, whether it's whether they were together or not.

We know they've given, they're going to eventually, as you're alluding to, going to give three stories. So one of those stories can't be true, right? You can't be there and not be there at the same time. So regardless of what you think of them, at some point during this investigation, they lied to law enforcement. And the question is why? Is it just because they were scared and they felt like the walls were closing in on them? And they felt like they had to confess or turn on each other in order to save themselves? it's possible, right? It's happened before. Again, we've had false confessions, but something doesn't smell right here. That's all I'm saying. And I don't know what it is. Maybe it'll make more sense in a little bit. But as of right now, I get extremely frustrated and triggered, if you will, by I don't know, I don't remember because I've been in interrogation rooms where I asked someone, where were you last night. And their response, because they can't think of a better one is, I don't remember. You don't remember? You don't remember? No, I had been drinking. I don't remember. Bullshit.

What if I told you that CBS has reported that the detectives who were interviewing Amanda and Raphael were trained to break down mafia members. So basically their interrogation techniques were probably a little intense, a little aggressive, like very aggressive, actually. And I believe that. I could understand being a young person in the presence of authority figures who are responsible for investigating. And the authority figures are telling them you're lying. And as Amanda and Raphael, maybe you're thinking, well, they must have something that. proves I'm lying. So did I lie? Now, personally, for me, I don't think that I would ever, I would ever be like, well, what do the police have that tells them I'm lying? Why are they so

sure that I'm lying? But once again, I do true crime. So I know that police lie. And I know that they put these pressure tactics on. And I know these things. As a 20-year-old, a 19-year-old, who doesn't really have a lot of familiarity with the justice system, especially in this country, would you think, I mean, could I have possibly, would you let them gaslight you, basically, to believing that you were lying. I don't know if I would, yeah. All I'm saying is this, very binary for me. I'm not disputing anything you're saying

as far as the tactics and her feeling like she has to give them a name or she's never going to leave. I'll give her a pass on that that she could have just thrown out Patrick's name because she was scared. She just wanted it to end, yeah. I don't necessarily disagree with that being the case.

My problem is this. When she was originally interviewed as a witness, she said she was at Raphael's apartment the whole time. At minimum, she's telling them now that, oh, she did leave. And I'm assuming that's based on the fact that at some point they said, Raphael just told us you left. So she's like, shit, yeah, I did leave. But that's, you know, I don't remember where I went.

And that's eventually after the aggressive and unprofessional tactics took place that she threw out a name. But I don't, there's a big difference between Patrick did it and not remembering what location you were at. Or she said she couldn't remember if Meredith was there when they got there or if Meredith came home after they got there. That's fine. Not knowing the exact time, I can't remember. Even that's a stretch for me if I'm being honest. Like you don't remember if when you walked in, Meredith was already there or not. But okay, let's give her a pass on that.

And she said it was because of marijuana she'd smoked earlier in the day. Now, listen, I have a little experience with marijuana. And what I can tell you is maybe if you took a few edibles earlier in the day, you'd still later in the day be kind of out of it. And like, where am I? But if he just smoked marijuana, the effects of that, they fair, they wear off pretty much within like 15 minutes, 45 minutes, depending on your metabolism and in your, I guess, your usage of the substance, how often you use it. You're not smoking marijuana earlier in the day and then hours later still being like, whoa. Where am I? Am I?

No, I don't find that to be. And I just want to be clear before we move on, in no way, shape, or form is my passion about this particular topic. and me inferring that she's guilty of anything. My frustration is with the lack of direct responses and remembering where you were and just being direct about what happened, regardless of how it may look. Hypothetically, let's say she left

and she went and saw another guy for a drink or whatever. At this point, you're being questioned about murder. Just say the truth. Deal with those consequences later. At minimum, someone is not telling the truth here. And I'm wondering why. It doesn't mean they're guilty of murder, but they're lying to police,

which is almost causing more problems for them. Of course. So that's my frustration. I hope I'm explaining that correctly. I very well could come out of this and say, Amanda had nothing to do with this. I'm still there. But I just,

I'm frustrated by the directness of her responses. And I should say the lack thereof. And the I don't know, I don't remember because what that does is it makes you even look more suspicious. So just be direct. Even if it makes you look bad because you made some, you know, morally questionable decisions as far as your boyfriend or whatever.

Who knows? I don't know, but just be honest. That's the best option here. So for me, it's the, the moral, the lack of a moral compass of throwing somebody else under the boss and trying to pin a murder on them. Yeah, that's terrible. Yeah, I agree. And she's even admitting that, like, that she was lying.

Yeah, I find that to be, I find that to be very, very distasteful. I've never understood it. I can understand at getting to a point where you're so overwhelmed and you're so stressed out and there's language bringing, you don't know what's happening, where you're just kind of like fold up and you're like, I don't remember anything now. I don't remember. I don't even know which way is up, but to come up with a whole third person and just throw their name out there that they killed someone. Pinned on them, come up with a whole story. Yeah, that is pretty reprehensible for me. What does that say about her character in that moment at 20 years old? I mean, listen, we've all been 20. We've made some bad decisions, but that's pretty bad.

But she's smart. So when I think about, you know, confessions that came out and were under extreme police dress, I think of Jesse, Ms. Kelly, June. from West Memphis three, right? That's one of the, you know, the ones that really stands out of my head. Yeah. But we know Jesse and Ms. Kelly Jr. Had a very low IQ, like that of a child's. Yes, very different circumstance. Very different circumstance.

Amanda does not. Amanda's over speaking a second language. She's very smart. Very smart. Knows what's going on. It doesn't mean she's not susceptible to being in fear. No. Like, I think there's a lot of validity to what she's saying.

I just think that there were at minimum some mistakes made here where she was trying to skate the truth, even if she's not involved, and it almost caused her more problems. So we're going to be impartial the whole time. But I'm also wondering how we got to the point where she was arrested for a murder. And I will tell you this, I can kind of see where it's coming from. Yeah, of course. You know, like this wasn't just pulled it out of their ass. There was things here that were very suspicious optically, just looking at it.

And so I'm starting to understand at least that question of how do we get to the point where Amanda Knox was not only arrested for this murder, but eventually put on trial. Put on trial for it. So I'm trying not to spoil anything here because I know the overview. But overall, now I'm starting to understand that at least. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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Remember, you're going to get free shipping in 365-day returns. Go to quince.com slash crime weekly. Okay, we're back. So Amanda's been in the interrogation room now with detectives for quite a while. The prosecutor, Juliano McNini, he's there too. He's been watching this. right? So at 540 a.m. Magnini, he decided to interview Amanda himself, also with an interpreter present. So he came in. He read Amanda Her rights, and he asked her whether she wanted an attorney. She said no.

This is once again always bothered me. If you realize you just made a statement implicating someone else for a murder and you can't, and you can't remember, and you're getting slapped, and they were aggressive and you're tired and you're stressed. Just say, yeah, I want a lawyer. I want to talk to a lawyer and run it by them and, you know, kind of clear this out. But she said no. And then she agreed to make a written statement.

Okay. So Amanda then told McNini that after she and Patrick went to the villa, Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith's bedroom. She said she stayed behind in the kitchen. At some point, she heard Meredith screaming, which frightened Amanda so badly that she covered her ears. And after that, her memory fell apart. She said she couldn't clearly recall exactly what she heard, how long everything lasted, or what happened next, saying everything in her head felt confused and jumbled.

Amanda said she wasn't sure whether Raphael was there with her that night. What she did remember was waking up in his bed the following morning. So after Amanda finished making that statement, the interpreter read it back to her. So she knows what she said, and then she signed it. And with that, Juliano McNini made the decision to arrest three people, Amanda, Raphael, and Patrick. Wow. Wow. This wasn't just a spontaneous utterance. She signed a confession for it and to the point where she knows that Patrick's about to get arrested for this murder and doesn't step in at any point to say, I'm sorry, don't do that. He wasn't even there. She signed a written confession after being asked if she wanted a lawyer and saying no and then restating her same story and then signing it.

And watched Patrick get arrested for this murder. Okay? Yeah. At that point, Giuliano Magnini wasn't entirely sure how Raphael fit into the situation. But based on Amanda's statement, he believed that all three were involved somehow. In his view, Amanda was telling the truth because her statement matched his initial theory that a woman who lived in the house had allowed the killer to enter and kill Meredith. It would make sense. Based on what we've even come to kind of theorize.

Yes. I don't believe Amanda did it. I don't believe Amanda did it. But she would have a familiarity. and know that nobody else is coming home. She would also have a familiarity with the locking situation. So, yes, I can understand where he's coming from. Just outside of even thinking whether or not Amanda did it,

when we look at the situation and we're like, yeah, it's probably not possible that somebody scaled the wall with that rock and broke in and based on the way the glass fell, it doesn't appear that the rock came from outside. So whoever entered, entered through the front door and was let in by someone. Yes. And now Amanda's saying, I'm that someone. It would line up with the feces too, right?

initially everything was good, everything was friendly. Someone used the restroom, forgot the flush, and then everything goes to hell. Nobody was scared or trying to get out of their fast because they knew where everybody was. Does check a lot of boxes, doesn't it? Yes, it does. So Magnini then filled out arrest warrants accusing all three of aggravated murder and aggravated sexual violence. As justification, he cited contradictions in Amanda's statements, her accusation against her boss Patrick, Patrick's non-existent text message to Amanda. her reply in the drafts. He also listed Raphael's sudden withdrawal of the alibi that he'd

previously given Amanda and the fact that Amanda and Raphael's phones had been turned off at nearly the same time that evening. Even though they weren't together, allegedly. Even though they weren't together, according to Raphael. So I think Giuliano McNini is thinking, okay, well, Amanda says that Raphael could have been there. She doesn't remember. Raphael said he wasn't there and he was at his apartment all night. Got a call from his dad. But their phones turned off at exactly the same time and how did that happen or around the same time? And how did that happen if this wasn't coordinated or they weren't together? Right. I mean, when you say it like that, pretty strong case. So McNini wrote that although no forensic testing had yet been completed, two pieces of physical

evidence from the scene could potentially implicate Raphael. One was a jackknife found when he was searched at the station, which McNini believed could have been used to kill Meredith. The other was a shoe print found in Meredith's room, possibly from a night. Nike Air Force One. Now, McNini knew that Raphael owned a similar pair. However, at that point, no comparison between Raphael's shoes and the print had been done. It was still just an assumption. Nothing about the feces, huh? No, not yet. I mean, I'm really fixated on the poop. I am too, because... I mean, it's, that's pretty good DNA evidence. It feels like whoever left that there. It has some explaining to do. Yeah, it was probably present. Right. That day.

You have to assume it wasn't in the, yeah, it wasn't in the toilet for three weeks. Exactly. So, once the warrants were completed, Amanda and Raphael were arrested at the police station. Before being transported to prison, Amanda wrote a letter to McNini with an updated statement. In it, she said that on the evening of November 1st, she went to Raphael's. They smoked marijuana, so she wasn't quite sure what else happened that day. Once again, I really have a big problem with this. Like, how much weed are you smoking that your memory is a complete blank space? how much?

Like, unless you fell asleep, but then you knew you fell asleep. Listen, I've smoked weed before. I know it's probably no surprise to anyone. I know you have dabbled in smoking weed. To say the least. And I know there's people out there watching right now, listening, who's smoking weed as they listen to this. So I want your opinions on this one.

Honestly, we just completely off base here. Is there a strain of marijuana that's out there where you just completely forget what happened before after smoking it? It's called the minder. sir, yeah. Really? No, I just made that up. Okay, because I was in narcotics for five years and dealt with a lot of marijuana and I never heard anybody come back to me and say, yeah, when I take this stuff, I can't remember what happened the day before or the day after. Yeah, there's times where I'm like, somebody's greened out. I've had people greened out on me, but not like this. But you know you got

greened out. It's a very specific experience that you will never forget again and you will do everything in your power to make sure it never happens again because it's very unpleasant. I have no doubt. We will have someone in the comment section say it's happened to me, but then when we think about everybody who smoked weed, how often this happens, to have it basically occur with two people on the same night at the same time. Because Raphael apparently is not going to remember what happened that night either if he's going to be giving contradicting statements. But as you have said, it's very hard for me to swallow this, that she doesn't remember anything. So there's going to there's going to be a point where like, you know, maybe I'm a bit a little high and I go into the kitchen for. something and then I'm like, what am I here for?

Right? That's the extent of my forgetting. But the next day, I just eat, did I eat that chicken? Did I come in here to get food? Did I come in here to get a drink? Did I come in here to check the doors or turn the lights off? I don't know. But then the next day, I'm going to remember amusedly, remember when you went to the kitchen,

you forgot what you were there for, you know, but like, I'm not going to forget what I did. But let me ask you something. If you happened to leave that night and come over to my house to hang out to play video games. Would you remember that? Yes. Okay. Just wondering. Yes, of course. I don't know what else you would be taking with this marijuana. You'd have to be taking something else with it. Some sort of prescription drug or something that would even, and even then, I have a hard time believing that somebody just has a complete

blank space in their memory. Yeah. Okay. So Amanda is now saying, hey, I did go to Raphael November 1st. We smoked weed. Wasn't sure what else happened that day. So she doesn't know what the hell happened that day. But she does remember something. She remembers eating food together at Raphael's flat and noticing blood on his hand, which she thought may have come from the fish they had eaten. I can't take this. I can't. Was your fish bloody, Amanda?

What? Like, even if maybe a steak, but a fish just bleeding red blood all over, would you not have noticed that? there was something going on with your fish. Right. And then there was blood on the plate. And you don't remember anything, but you remember eating and there's blood on his hand. So you can remember this specific detail.

And you can remember thinking, maybe it was from the fish we had. So now you also remember what you ate, but nothing else. You remember nothing else. So once again, Amanda, like Raphael, apparently now she could not remember if they had sex, which I think is a problem for this relationship because now neither one of them can remember if they had sex on November 1st. and before both of their stories were that they'd had food, gotten high, watched a movie, had sex, or I'm sorry, made love, and then went to bed.

And that was initially, like within hours. Yeah, but now neither of them can remember if they did have sex that night where it's like, was the sex not memorable? What's happening? What's going on here? Yeah. Amanda said she knew they had showered together, though, and she said they went to bed late and woke up around 10 a.m. the next morning.

So Amanda wrote that the confession she had made earlier was not true. She said, quote, I'm very doubtful of the entity of my statements because they were made under the pressure of stress, shock, and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly after many hours of confusion. End quote. Amanda wrote, quote, I am unsure if the statements I made are real things that happened or are just dreams my mind has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked. but the truth is I am unsure about the truth. End quote. The one thing that Amanda said she was certain about was she did not kill Meredith. I'm going to be very interested to hear the people who have followed this case,

maybe surface level, and have come to the conclusion that Amanda's innocent, and I may come to that same conclusion, by the way, but if they are going to be familiar with any of this, or they just know that she was arrested and whatever happened and now she's a free woman, I'm wondering if they're going to be like, wow, I didn't know all of this. Or I'm wondering if this is like common knowledge or it's just a crime weekly deep done. Most people who are familiar with the case are familiar with. These inconsistencies?

Yeah. Hmm. Okay. All right. But I think also a lot of people have this negative view of the police where, yes, we've seen, especially if you're into your crime, you've seen case after case where the police will sort of form confirmation bias. Right. And they will interrogate suspects incessantly and, you know, that sometimes this does elicit false confessions. Yeah, they're not wrong.

I mean, I try to police the police as much as I can. There are definitely officers who, in their mind, determine what happened the minute they show up and then find the evidence to support that instead of doing it the opposite way. The problem here is one of their main witnesses, even if they had some suspicion about her, told them one thing. And then the boyfriend told them the same thing. And within a very short period of time, they're both now contradicting their statements. One saying they weren't even together. The other saying a third party killed her and she was present for it. So that's a big, it's a big jump.

And we were talking about it a little bit when we went to our last break. And we said, you know, to be fair, like a lot of people give the Italian police in this case some shit. And they're like, you arrest the wrong people and the right person came forward. But if you even initially suspected that Amanda and Raphael were involved at the beginning of this investigation, and then they gave their alibis, they gave their stories of what happened the night of November 1st, and then you get them into an interrogation room and everything falls apart. And suddenly, Raphael's like, she wasn't with me. And suddenly Amanda's like, I was at the flat where Meredith was killed with Patrick. And he did it. And this is how he got in.

And this already supports the evidence that you're seeing. You would definitely be like these people did it. Right? Of course. So we can't really be too mad at them, at least at this stage, for arresting these people and going after them thinking they did it because Amanda and Raphael went into the interrogation rooms and just completely threw both of their alibis out the door and made up new stories. I think we can on one hand acknowledge that just the facts of what allegedly they both said, you would would absolutely go down the road of they're guilty. However, we can also disavow that. the tactics used, right, to get that information. The problem is some of that information was obtained before these alleged tactics took place, right? So she never said that when they were initially interviewed, they were being slapped around

and pressured to say something. If it turns out that that's not true, the question is, why were you acting that way and lying then when you weren't in a room being interrogated, being slapped around? You mean their first story when they said they were at the flat all night. The first initial story, which is always going to be, if you're telling the truth, the most accurate because it's the most fresh, right? You're going to, what did you do 12 hours ago? Where were you last night? Is it going to be easier to remember that then or three days later, four days later? And she had a very clear memory of that when she was first question. Yeah. So I am, I'm not even torn.

I'm very clear on that there's two different questions here. Do I agree with the tactics being used by law enforcement? Do I believe that they were using those tactics? I absolutely believe that they were. I absolutely disagree with those tactics being used. But I still also come back to, Amanda, Why are we giving conflicting stories? As you said, she had multiple opportunities, even in a very stressful situation, to have an attorney present and stop that questioning. And she chose to write a written statement. So I have concerns. I have concerns.

But there's got to be more here. I know you. You're saving something, which I love you and I hate you for it. But there's more to this story that I don't have yet. I think my frustration at this point is warranted, but it may change based on further information. That's what I'm thinking. I also have a problem with the police arresting Patrick before bringing him in for questioning. No doubt.

So I find it weird that just based on Amanda's statement, like he was there, that you're just going to go and arrest him. Nothing to support him being there other than her statement. Correct. I agree. Because that's exactly what they did. So while Amanda and Raphael were being transferred to prison, officers went to Patrick's home and they arrested him in front of his 18-month-old son. And obviously, Patrick's completely confused about what's happening.

And he kept asking, like, why am I under arrest? Why am I being arrested? And officers would only tell him that they knew or he knew what he had done. So I have a problem with this. They should have gone to Patrick's house, been like, hey, you know, we got some questions. Come into the station. This is what this girl's saying about you. But to go there and be like, how you know what you've done and arrest him in front of his family with only Amanda's word that he'd been there.

That's a problem. So once all three arrests had been made, the Prugia police chief held a press conference. And he announced the arrests and said that in his view, the investigation was, quote, substantially closed. End quote. Despite Amanda already recanting, despite no DNA or forensic results being back, despite not even speaking with Patrick to determine whether he had an alibi, and despite not even knowing how Raphael fit into the case, they were like, we can wrap this up.

It's pretty much done. That one's going to come back to bite him in the ass, huh? Yeah, it definitely is. All right, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay, Derek, new year, big goals, and absolutely no time or energy. to cook. That's where real life kicks in. Yeah, because motivation is high, but so is exhaustion. And that's why today's episode is sponsored by Factor. Factor makes it really easy with fully

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Offer only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with factor. We're back. As news spread through Perugia, people were stunned by Patrick's arrest. Obviously, because like, where does Patrick fit in? Patrick also stunned. Probably Amanda, too. Patrick was, you know, he had a good reputation. He was a well-liked bar owner.

He was friendly. He was devoted to his family. No one could picture him being involved. But the reaction to Amanda and Raphael was very different. People did seem to believe that those two could be involved, though most of the anger was directed at Amanda. So in the days and months that followed, Amanda would become the most recognizable and most hated woman in Italy.

With Patrick, Amanda, and Raphael now in custody, the investigation in Demerite's murder continued. Patrick was interviewed by detectives. And he was like, what the hell are you talking about? I have an alibi for the night of November 1st. I have an alibi for the early hours of November 2nd. I don't know why she said that, but I had nothing to do with this. He said that on November 1st, he arrived at his bar sometime between 5.30 and 6.

Because it was a slow night, he said he texted Amanda at around 8.30 p.m. telling her she didn't need to come in. So even Patrick now is confirming there was a text sent, even though the detective said they couldn't find this text on Amanda's phone. Now, the account differed from what Amanda had told detectives when she was being interrogated at the station. She said Patrick told her he wasn't going to open the bar at all because it was so slow. And Patrick said that wasn't accurate. He said the bar was open that night and he served drinks to roughly 16 customers.

He closed shortly after midnight and he went straight home to his girlfriend and their infant son. Patrick told detectives he hadn't seen Amanda, Raphael or Meredith at any point that evening. So now we've got a bar that was open. be not busy. But enough people there seeing Patrick, tending bar, serving the drinks, talking to him at a point where he couldn't possibly have been involved. He's not the guy. Yeah. So detectives did review Patrick's account. They examined the bar receipts. And those records confirmed. Yes, Lechique, the bar had been open. However, the earliest recorded sale was not until 10, 29 p.m. Two investigators that suggested two things. First, that Patrick may not have opened the bar at 530 or 6,

as he claimed. And second, that he still could have had enough time to kill Meredith before arriving at the bar to establish an alibi. Fair. You know, when we talk about a potential timeline of between 9 and 11 p.m. for the murder, that's smack dab in the middle. Yes. So basically, they're like, okay, we believe that you open the bar, but you said you were there at 530 or 6. And we don't see any sales being made until 10, almost 10.30, right? You would hope there'd be other witnesses there that would be able to put them at the bar, even if there were no sales, other employees. So detectives then took a closer look at Raphael's statements, and they found records that contradicted several of them. Raphael said his father had called him around 11 p.m. on November 1st, but phone records showed that Raphael's father had actually called him at 8.42 p.m.

Then sent him a text message at 11.14 p.m. that read, good night. So that message was not received until 6.02 a.m. when Raphael turned his phone back on. Raphael also told detectives that he'd called his sister before contacting authorities on the afternoon of November 2nd. Remember Raphael said his sister was a police officer. She's the one who told him to call the police. Phone records showed something different. They indicated that he contacted police only after the postal police had already arrived at the villa. So police also searched Raphael's flat and his car. According to detectives, when they entered the apartment, they immediately noticed a strong smell of bleach.

Luminal testing was conducted inside the flat, and investigators concluded the floors had likely been cleaned recently with bleach. When police examined Raphael's car, they also found it to be unusually clean, as if it had been recently detailed, cleaned up. Detective searched Raphael's kitchen for a possible murder weapon. Inside a cutlery drawer, they found a knife measuring about 12 inches long with a blade approximately 6.5 inches in length. Of all the knives in the kitchen, this was the only one that caught investigators' attention. engine and the only one collected as evidence. Initially, it was placed in an evidence bag, but officers became concerned that it could cut someone, so it was removed and placed into an empty cardboard box that had previously held a diary. The knife was then sent off for testing.

During the search, police also found Japanese manga comics. Detectives later said the material contained what they described as a, quote, mix of pornography and horror. End quote. One story depicted a woman whose role was to hunt vampires hiding among students at a nearby school. This particular story stood out because on Halloween night, the day before her murder, Meredith had worn a vampire costume. I hate this stuff because now they're reaching. You know, it's like, okay, maybe his apartment was cleaned with bleach. Okay, the phone records don't add up to his story. But now you're like, he liked manga and it's all about sex and violence, which is exactly what Meredith's murder's about, and it's about one of them is about a vampire. Yeah, it's a little too speculative for me.

Meredith wore a vampire costume? Like how would Raphael and Amanda even know Meredith wore a vampire costume? They weren't with her on Halloween night, according to the texts because we know Meredith had other plans. So yeah, it's a stretch. Police also came across an image in the comments depicting a murdered young woman whose body position they believed was very similar to Meredith's. So all of this only contributed to investigators' belief that Raphael was also involved in the crime. Based on everything uncovered so far, McNini and the detectives developed a theory. One that is complex and at times difficult to follow, which isn't great if you want a reliable theory.

So according to this theory that McNini and law enforcement came up with, Amanda and Raphael spent the afternoon of November 1st smoking marijuana together. At around 8.30 p.m. while Amanda was at Raphael's flat, she received Patrick's text message telling her she didn't need to come to work. Amanda then typed the C-U-Later reply, though that message was never actually sent. despite the fact that the text did not go through, detectives believed it confirmed plans the two had already made, meaning Patrick and Amanda. Investigators theorized that Amanda and Patrick had arranged to meet later that night so she could introduce him to Meredith, who they believed Patrick was infatuated with. Now, how was Patrick infatuated with Meredith if he had not met her yet? That'd be tough. Yeah, maybe you saw her, but in infatuation, I don't know.

Maybe you saw her with Amanda once or maybe she came in to see Amanda but you'd never been introduced in person. But I don't really see how he could develop this huge infatuation with Meredith when he had never even spoken to her. But this is the first night where Patrick is going to meet Meredith. Now investigators theorized that Amanda and Raphael then left the flat together to meet Patrick. They figured Raphael came along because he was bored and looking for excitement, the kind found in his manga comics. Sometime between 9 and 9.30 p.m., the couple met Patrick in Piazza Grimani, and they walked with him to the villa. Now, around the same time, both Amanda's and Raphael's phones were turned off. Meredith either returned to the villa shortly afterward or she was already there when they arrived.

According to the theory, Meredith went into her bedroom with Patrick. Now, once again, this is the first time Meredith's ever met Patrick. He's interested in her. Is Meredith the kind of girl who's going to be like, hey, you? I know you have a fiancé or a girlfriend at home, and I know you got a baby at home, and I've never met you before today. But let's go in my bedroom and get to know each other better. I don't really see that happening personally.

I mean, it's not likely, but we also got to be honest, it's not like something that's never happened before either. I suppose. But, I mean, according to everything in Meredith's phone and everything that her friends and family knew about her, she wasn't this boy crazy person. She wasn't dating anybody. she wasn't seeing anybody. There wasn't anybody she was currently having a sexual romantic relationship with her.

They found nothing like that in her phone. So all of a sudden. Yeah, so based on history, it's not likely. Yeah, based on who she was. Yeah. So the police felt that Meredith and Patrick either had like quick hurried sex or Meredith was sexually assaulted. Investigators believed Raphael then likely entered the room and attempted to participate in the sexual encounter. Meredith was then threatened with a knife, one that Raphael was believed to carry regularly,

and then stabbed in the neck. After Meredith was killed, the three staged a fake break-in. Then they cleaned themselves up, leaving traces of blood behind in the bathroom. After that, they fled the scene, taking Meredith's phones with them before discarding them elsewhere. Yeah, so I guess this is also a theory that they're formulating before you have any of the forensics processed. And so I'm not sure why you would go this far and come up with this election. elaborate scheme of like, oh, Amanda's there with her boyfriend.

Meredith's there with Amanda's boss, who she's having sex with. And then Raphael, Amanda's boyfriend wants to have sex with Meredith and Patrick. And Amanda's just like, all right, you go have fun in there. I'm going to hang out in here and keep watch. Like, that's weird. You've got no forensics back. You don't have the footprint to even know if it's Raphael's shoe. You haven't tested the fecal matter in the toilet to even know who that came from.

Yeah, there's nothing back to. support this. So it kind of just felt like it was coming from, well, Raphael likes these comic books about sex and violence. So he must have been down for, you know, a forced threesome kind of thing. Like they're making assumptions about their character now, which you're getting out of these investigatory properties that I would say, yeah, of course, the timeline doesn't add up. They retracted their stories. That makes sense. Why you suspect them. But now you're like, well, Raphael liked those sexy, sexy, violent comics. Yeah, no, it's too much.

It's too much of a stretch at this point. Like you said, you got to wait for the evidence to come back. Although, if we are just speculating, because, you know, that's what we do. That's what the Italian police did. We're not investigating the case, so we can do that. But I do think a likely scenario when you think about how all these pieces would fit together, maybe not necessarily with Patrick, but a scenario where Raphael and Amanda are back at the apartment with a third party, someone else that we're not aware of where.

You mean Meredith and Amanda's flat, not Raphael's apartment? Yes, correct. So another man is there. Raphael and Amanda are there. So it's kind of a double date thing situation. It's a hangout. It's a chill hang out. And then something goes wrong.

Something goes wrong. I don't know what, but something goes wrong. That might explain the inconsistencies in Amanda and Raphael's story because although they didn't do anything directly, somehow they were, they feel culpable. And they're trying to cover their tracks. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm only putting out there that that scenario would make sense to me if we had a way of going back in the past and seeing what actually happened. Yeah.

And I mean, they're telling fake stories could be a result of guilt that they feel for somehow being responsible, even if they weren't directly responsible. And maybe they don't want to give up the real person. You might say, well, why wouldn't they just say who it was? Well, if they somehow contributed to the cleanup after the fact, they don't want to implicate that person who can implicate them. That would be the reason to not bring up that third person who could bring everyone down if that's what happened. Yeah. And I'm sure that's like part of their thing where they're like, hey, we're trying to come up with a theory and formulate a theory. We're all three of these people.

Patrick, Raphael and Amanda, they're all lying. Who would have been involved and could have been there. Right. But maybe, you know, since I think we know, Patrick had nothing to do with this. By the way, spoiler alert. Patrick had nothing to do with this. So maybe the police are even at this point thinking, well, if Patrick had nothing to do with this. nothing to do with this. We still have Amanda and Raphael's phones off going at the same time.

Phones off at the same time. Their stories aren't matching up. Their stories are now throwing each other under the bus. Raphael can't remember if Amanda was there. He says she wasn't. Amanda says she doesn't know if he was with her at the flat when this whole thing was going down. So let's still try to pin them both and put them both there. And that's what they're trying to do. Yep. So by November 8th, a week had passed since Meredith was murdered. Both Meredith's family and Amanda's family had already traveled to Italy. They were searching for answers in a country that they weren't from, they didn't speak the language of, and both families were forced to hire attorneys just to understand how the Italian court system worked and what was happening behind the scenes.

That same day, November 8th, a court hearing was held to determine whether the defendants would be granted bail. And during the hearing, the prosecution laid out its theory of the case for the judge. All three defendants were also given the opportunity to speak. Amanda, who had attorneys working with her through the U.S. Embassy, she told the judge that she was innocent. She then refused to answer further questions. Now, that's something I want to ask you about. If you're in this position and you had been interrogated by the police and you didn't have a lawyer and you didn't really know what was happening and you made these utterances that you're now trying to detract or retract and you have an opportunity to speak to the judge after you are working with your attorneys through the U.S. Embassy.

So these are people, hey, I know I can trust them. They're not going to lead me the wrong way. Did the attorneys tell her, don't answer any further questions, or do you think that she should have maybe used that time when she's in front of the judge to be like, hey, the police were really aggressive. The police did this. They did that. Like, yes, I said something I shouldn't have. I'm retracting that. I have retracted that. But the way I was interviewed was not good. And it shouldn't be happening. And I'm sorry for what I said. Like, would you use that as a way to sort of like set the foundation for I didn't do this? And not only did I not do this. I'm aware I made mistakes. And I did stupid things. This is why I did that. And I think it's part of it. I think it's

part of your why. I made a lot of mistakes. I said some things that weren't true. Yeah, but would you take the opportunity to tell the judge that or would you just say, I'm innocent and I have nothing else to say, which probably is what her lawyers told her to do, but I don't know if it looked great. Yeah, I don't know if I would have taken the opportunity to tell the judge, it would probably go through my attorneys, but if you have that chance and you feel like it could have an impact, maybe, maybe I don't know. I think there's been so many mistakes made up to this point. It's like I've been digging this hole trying to get out of it and all I've done is dug myself deeper. And there's a lot of things that were said and done so far that

don't look good. And the reality is they still may have nothing to do with the crime. That's the scary part. Yeah. I mean, her lawyers might have told her like, you talk a lot, man. Yeah, just, just, just, just be quiet. We don't even know why you said this stuff. Yes. So let's just kind of make it a rule going forward. Don't, don't speak unless we tell you to. Don't say more than you need to. Yeah, that's probably true, especially if they sat her down and they said, why did you? you say this initially? Why did you say this after the fact? She's like, I don't know. I don't remember. Yeah. They were probably in your position. Like, I mean, we get it. It sucked. It was intense. It was hard. It was long. You were tired. You were stressed. But damn. Like, you just threw your boss under the

boss and now you're saying that's not true at all. Well, she's not really saying that's not true. She was saying, I don't know what the truth is. And I just don't know how you proceed in a legal case or an investigation when your stance is. I don't know what the truth is. I just want to reiterate. I know I've done it multiple times in this episode. You're talking about November 8th, right? That's where we are in the story and it being the part where we're deciding whether or not they're going to be granted bail. Yeah, it's a week.

Which means that everything you've talked about up to this point, every statement they have made, everything they don't remember, all happened within six or seven days. That's what I'm talking about here, guys, where I'm not saying that on November 30th, they were interviewed and they gave inconsistencies. everything in the story and so much has happened already was all within a matter of less than seven days. So to think that you have at least two people at this point who really have no recollection of what happened on that night, that's concerning and that minimum suspicious. Anybody who doesn't see that whether you know more about the story going forward,

don't look at it from that perspective. Look at it from the perspective that I'm looking at at the story, which is right now, not knowing the rest. And if we're all being honest with each other and taking an audit of where we are in the story right now, I think we can mostly agree that there's some things here that should be concerning to everyone when we're trying to figure out who's responsible for what happened to Meredith. Yeah, that is weird. That's a week. It's a week between. We talked about so much tonight. Between the murder and them like, yeah, being in front of a judge, are they going to get bail?

So a handful of days where you went from knowing exactly where you were in what you did on November 1st to not even knowing what the truth is. That's right. And they were probably interviewed on, I would say, the third or fourth when that interview happened where she implicated Patrick. So we're probably talking less than four days in which she went from, this is where I was, this is who I was with to even in her press conference saying, I just don't remember. I just don't recall. Yeah, to the point where on November 1st she can remember, well, movie they watched. Right. That good point. Amelia? How do you say? What was it? I'm not, Amel. Amel. We didn't know the name. Everyone was like, it's super famous. I was like, I have no clue. So Amelay, I think. But yeah, you remembered what movie you watched. It was one of your favorites.

Very specific. And I think that my issue is if you were in this very stressful situation with law enforcement and then you said stuff, maybe after a good night's sleep and then you wake up the next day you're like, oh, why did I say that? Of course I know what happened. Of course I know what happened. It's exactly what I said. We were there. I got the text. We turned our phones off to not be disturbed. We had dinner. We got high. We watched a movie. We had sex. We went to sleep. And then the next day, I went back to the apartment to pack a bag because we're going away for the week. Of course I remember what happened. Maybe I was stressed and they were putting a lot of pressure on me. And in that moment, I said what I had to say to get the hell out of there.

But now I'm telling you, I said what I had to say to get the hell out of there. And that's absolutely not true. Not, I don't even know what the truth is anymore. Like you got that messed up in those hours. Was it a dream? Yeah. To where when you're out of the stressful situation and now, you still don't know what's true. You still don't know what's true. Yeah. I can tell you with almost 20 years in investigations now and I've interviewed hundreds of people, interrogated hundreds of people, not all with this amount on the line, you know, being a murder. One common trend that I have when I have a group of individuals that I'm talking to who are at a specific location together. If they're telling the truth, regardless of how many times I ask them, in most cases, the story

continues to be the same and it continues to line up, regardless of how many angles or approaches I take to it, when I ask those individuals separately what occurred, somehow or another they're able to keep their story straight. And the reason they're able to keep their story straight is they're just going from memory. They're just regurgitating what they've said multiple times because they're remembering what happened and relaying that to me. It's a very simple concept when you're telling the truth. That has been a common occurrence. Now, there have been outliers, but most of the time, regardless of how many people, regardless of how long ago it occurred, if it's in a reasonable amount of time, they usually give the same story.

Yeah, it's very, I don't like it. I don't like it. And I know people are going to come at us and they're going to be like, do you know what she went through? You weren't in her situation. You weren't in her shoes. You don't know what it was like being in that police station. not understanding the language, having to trust an interpreter. Everything's happening so fast.

You're getting hit. You're getting screamed at. They're telling you you're lying. But when the interpreter reads your written statement to you. Yeah. After you're asked if you want a lawyer. And before Amanda was ever interrogated to this extreme, Raphael was throwing her under the bus.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot there. There's a lot that you have to acknowledge. And I think we can acknowledge that what they went through was traumatic and probably very, very stressful. Yes. But at that point, and I would say this to everybody, if you're ever in a similar situation, is just continue to say the truth.

Yeah, I agree. Don't change. Don't deviate or don't speak at all. That's even a better option. But if you're going to speak, continue to say the truth. Because even though they're asking you multiple times with different inflections, they're just trying to see if you're going to change your story. I also feel like there's a world that exists where if they're like screaming at you and hitting you, you stand up and you leave. And if they block the door, why?

You're not under arrest yet. You're being detained at that point. How are you being detained? Because at that point, now you have a person in there. And this is more of a legal question, but you have now your biggest alibi saying you're lying. So now they have reasonable suspicion to believe a crime has been committed. Well, then I'd be like, am I under arrest? If I'm not under arrest, I'm leaving.

I've told you everything I can. Yeah. Like, what do we do here? I'm not just going to make up a story. But they can't hold you. They can't hold you. You don't have to speak. And you also don't have to make up a story that pins.

a murder on someone else. Correct. That is fair. I always have a problem with that. All right. We're going to take our last break. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Liquid Ivy. Okay, so you know those moments where you almost say no because your social battery is done? And then you force yourself to go and it ends up being one of those nights that you're really glad you didn't miss. Yeah, those are the best ones, right?

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So once again, this 20% off your first order with code crime weekly and liquid ivy.com. Okay, so Amanda chose to just tell the judge, I'm innocent and say nothing else. Raphael also told the judge he was innocent, but he agreed to answer questions. So when he was asked about his relationship with Amanda, he said he no longer wanted to date her. Remember, they've been together like two weeks at this point. And one of those weeks, they're basically being suspected of being murderers. Raphael then described what happened on November 1st and November 2nd. Raphael said that on the night of the first, he and Amanda walked around together

before returning to his flat. He made it clear that Amanda did come back with him and spend the night. He told the judge that he lied when he told detectives she did not return with him because he was under extreme pressure at the time. He was shocked, scared, and emotionally overwhelmed. And I want to address that. In my opinion, there's only two things that can be happening. to have both Amanda and Raphael say things to the police that were lies and they knew wasn't true and they knew didn't happen.

There was only two options here. One, they're both lying and they were involved. Or two, their time with the police was very, very, very severe to the point where it made them both feel they had no other choice but to say what it was that the police wanted them to say. or to say something to just make it, you know, stop or go away. So those are the only two options here. Because if Amanda cracked and made up a story and then Raphael didn't, okay. If Raphael cracked a made up story and Amanda didn't, okay. But at this point, these are the only two options.

They definitely had something to do with the murder and they were involved in some way. Or this is just the most intense like Guantanamo Bay torture interview that has ever happened to make both of these people. say like, I don't, I don't even know what the hell is real anymore. I'm so mentally gaslit and manipulated and confused that I'm just going to say something so that this stops. There's really no middle ground here. Yeah, something is not adding up. We're coming to the end of this episode. And I am still, and maybe that's going to get me canceled in the comments, but I still don't believe she did it. I really, really don't. The actual autopsy, which is consistent and will not change over time is highly suggestive of a male offender.

And so I know there's another person in this equation that either we are not familiar with. So you're saying she didn't hold the weapon and kill Meredith herself? No, no, she definitely, at this point, as far as I'm concerned, did not kill Meredith. I don't know if she knows more than she's saying. I know that at minimum she's made some mistakes in her approach to dealing with law enforcement. and absolutely am acknowledging that's that's contributed to their treatment of her. That would affect anybody, including someone like myself who's been in law enforcement. If you're getting slapped around, you may say things that you don't necessarily mean to

try to appease the people slapping you, right? Would I go out and implicate someone who wasn't involved at all? No, I wouldn't. I don't understand why Raphael, who's from so far, hasn't claimed that he was under duress when he was interviewed, but he still went out and said Amanda wasn't with me. So, well, he said he was emotionally overwhelmed, shocked, scared. Yeah, that's fine. Why are you, why are you implicating indirectly your girlfriend then?

I mean, that's an extreme. He said it pretty early on in the interview, too, according to the records. I wish, you know, this would all be very simple if we had it on video, which I know interviews or interrogations should be done without video and audio, or at least audio at least audio at this point. But I know we're, again, I'll let you finish this one up, but I still am not connecting the dot of how Amanda is involved with this directly, at least. I don't know if there's something that you're not familiar with or we don't know in the story,

but I just, I'm just not there. I'm just not there. Yeah. So according to this, Raphael was questioned for roughly two hours before he withdrew Amanda's alibi. Two hours. That's a significant amount of time.

Yeah, but I mean, we've got a lot of these false confessions happening after like, six, seven hours. He broke in two hours. What's troubling about that is, let's say that they told the truth the first time. They were at Raphael's place all night, okay? If Raphael went in there and said Amanda had left for whatever period of time, and that wasn't true, like flat out not true, she never left, she was there all night, right?

And we knew that for certain. When they brought Amanda in, she would have said, I don't know why he's saying that. but I was with him all night. Like I never left for her to pull a 180 and say, you know what? I actually did leave. Not only did I leave, but I went back to the villa. That's a, that's a lot to go from, wait, when we walked in here together to this police station, we were working off the assumption that I stayed all night at Raphael's place.

You're telling me now that he said I didn't. How does she know that they're not lying to her, that they're not pulling some form of trickery and saying that Raphael said they weren't together all night when they actually were. Derek, I'm going to be honest, I don't even know if they told her that he had withdrawn her alibi before she said this. Oh, interesting. That's a good point. I think they were just, they were just coming at her with, oh, you said your boss, your boss texted you, but we can't find that text in your phone. So they must have, though, they must have. And I'm going to tell you why. But once again, we only have their version. Yeah, we only have their version. But they, they asked him to come alone.

they had no intention on interviewing her that day. But I think when he finally said she wasn't with me and they realized she was out in the hallway, it was just too much to wait. They wanted to get her right there. So they're like, oh, we got him to flip. He's now implicating her. She's in the hallway. Well, guess what?

We're glad she showed up now. Bring her in two. That's my belief. But even with all that, I can say on. On one side of this, I disagree with their flipping of their recollection of what happened. But still, and maybe I'm just, maybe the people who think she's guilty are going to come from me at this one. But I still just don't see her being the person directly involved with Meredith's murder. I do not think at this point she killed Meredith.

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, maybe they didn't tell her right away when they first got her in the room. But they would definitely have told her Raphael withdrew the alibi. Oh, yeah, for sure. she, before she, you know, started. No doubt. That's their key. That's their key, yeah. But why would she have not pointed the finger at him, knowing he had pointed the finger at her? Why wouldn't she have said, well, if I wasn't with him. Who do you think I was with? Then according to him, I wasn't with him. Well, did he do this then? I think he must have done it then. Why would you just completely randomly,

like, it was Patrick. Patrick hasn't done anything to you. Raphael's throwing your ass under the bus. why wouldn't you have turned on him the way he had turned on you? Why wouldn't that be the person that you tried to implicate? Unless there's another party that we haven't talked about yet. Yeah. So they're both trying to protect. Interesting. All right.

So Raphael also addressed the two pieces of physical evidence police claimed could be tied to him, could potentially be tied to him. He said the shoe print in Meredith's bedroom, which was possibly from Nike Air Force One, could not have been his for two reasons. First, he never entered Meredith's room. And second, he was not wearing those shoes. on November 1st or November 2nd. When asked about the pocket knife found on him, Raphael said, I always carry a knife.

And he explained that he collected knives and chose which one to carry based on what he was wearing. I don't think that telling them that you collect knives as a hobby at this point when this woman's been stabbed to death is probably the best thing to say. But that is what he said. That's the least concerning thing that they've said to law enforcement so far. Yeah, but the media will use it against him. Oh, yeah, for sure.

They got pictures of him, you know, talking about knives on social media and posting pictures of knives. And they're going to use that at least to, you know, put him on trial for the public. So after Raphael was finished, Patrick was brought before the judge. And he's like, I don't even know what the hell I'm doing here. He provided his alibi again. He said he'd been working at the bar, Lay Sheik, throughout the evening of November 1st. He said he did not see Amanda at all that night. Patrick also denied ever being attracted to Meredith.

saying he had never flirted with her or expressed interest in her to anyone in any way. He said, quote, I didn't go to Amanda's house. I didn't kill Meredith. I'm innocent and God knows it. End quote. When Patrick was asked why the first receipt from his cash register was time stamped 10.29 p.m. five hours after he opened the bar. He explained that when the bar was slow, he sometimes allowed customers to pay only when they

were ready to leave. Which makes total sense, by the way. Yeah. So people were in there much earlier, but not until they close out their tab. Yeah, it's like they have a tab running. Yeah, they may have been there at 5.30, had four or five drinks, and then paid when they left at 10.30. So after hearing from all three defendants and reviewing the evidence presented, the judge sided with the prosecution believing their version of events. And so Amanda, Raphael, and Patrick were all ordered to remain in jail for up to a year while the investigation continued.

All three of them were sent back to prison, still in shock, but holding on to the hope that investigators would eventually recognize their innocence. Only one of them would get that wish for the other two. Things were only going to get much, much worse. But all of that's going to have to wait for the next part. Yeah, I can't even imagine being Patrick at this point where you're like, I had nothing to do with this whatsoever. I don't even know these people really. I know I was home. I know I was at the bar.

People saw me there. I have alibis and I'm going to prison for up to a year while the investigation continues. Like, how are you feeling at this point? No, I mean, my takeaway after three parts is just my perspective from what you're relaying to me. It appears that Italian police had it out for Amanda, especially being a foreigner. They really felt like she was the person responsible from the beginning and they were just looking for confirmation. And they did some, they provided, they used some techniques that are unethical and more. on professional, whatever word you want to use.

And at some point, she may have worked off of her original statement out of fear. Maybe she said some things that she shouldn't have. And also maybe she didn't say the things that law enforcement said she did because we have no proof of it, although we do have a written statement. Yeah. She also said I did say that stuff, but I don't know why I did. But I was under duress. Yeah.

So at minimum, we're looking at a young woman who I do think was in the right mind state and intelligent enough to understand what was happening here and should have gave consistent statements. At minimum, we're looking at her making some really poor judgment calls when dealing with law enforcement, whether that was to change her story or to speak to them at all. Worst case scenario as far as Amanda's concerned, at this point, in my opinion, is she knows who's responsible and she's just not saying it for whatever reason. but I am not hearing anything so far that would indicate to me that she is solely involved with this murder, where she went back to the villa at some point.

Her and Meredith had a falling out. She killed her and then she left. The autopsy does not support that. The evidence at the crime scene does not indicate it's Amanda Knox. And I think she would let someone else find her, meaning Meredith, if that were the case, to try to give her some more separation. So there are some things to me that are still not connecting. And I don't know what it is. But the fact that you mentioned tonight that someone else was arrested for this crime and

you talked about him a little bit, that might fill those gaps from me where it might make more sense as to why Amanda said what she said. I don't know. I don't know the relationship. I'm interested in learning about it though because I'm not completely understanding why Amanda made some of the decisions she did. you can attribute some of those to duress and trauma and stress. But as far as like we've both established coming out during a press conference afterward

and saying, I still don't know what I did or what happened. I have a hard time, I have a hard time believing that. Yeah, I think that the police did definitely always want to pin it on Amanda. But because of the nature of the crime, they were like, well, she had to have worked with a man. So now we have two men here, Raphael and Patrick. It's got to be one of them. We don't really care which one it is at the time.

We don't really care which one it is at this point. We're just putting them all where we know where they are, and we can keep an eye on them, and then we'll figure that out as we go. But they definitely always wanted her to be responsible. I think that she rubbed them the wrong way. I think they didn't like her. I think they thought, you know, she's acting weird. We don't like this.

You're not from here. And yeah, they kind of went hard. And kind of Raphael and Patrick maybe got sort of swept up in the crosshairs based on the, once again, the nature of the crime. and Meredith having sex or being sexually assaulted shortly before her murder, well, there's got to be a guy involved. We've got two here. We'll figure out which one it is and how they were involved and who was involved as we go along. But it's definitely Amanda. Yeah, and not only did they go hard, but they went fast.

Yeah, they did. They did go fast. I had talked about November 8th being a day and all of this transpiring within those six or seven days. That is true. What is also true is that by arresting them as fast as, they did, there's no physical possibility that they could have vetted all other theories by that point. They didn't even have the forensics back. They didn't have forensics back. There's no way they're able to devote enough time to looking into other scenarios, looking at other potential suspects, looking at any camera footage, talking to witnesses, cross-referencing sources. You already have these people

in jail. So that clearly wasn't done. And part of the job of those detectives is not only to build a case, but to also explore any other potential theories, regardless of how unlikely they may be, to ensure that that outlier isn't actually what happened. And that's part of your job, especially if it's going to go to trial, because if you don't do it, the defense attorneys will.

And there's no way they could have done it in that period of time. So I say November 8th, and I'm saying it both ways, not only because Amanda and Raphael changed their stories within such a short period of time, but law enforcement came to a conclusion within that same time period as well. And that's, and that's very concerning. We know they jumped the gun.

They arrested a guy with very little information and had to let them out almost just fast. So it's, it's not good. This case is not good. It's, it's a mess, actually. And Amanda and Raphael didn't help themselves. I think most of us can admit that. I can admit, I'm still not quite sure why they did that. But if you guys have, like, thoughts or you can very clearly see.

why they would have done this and you have your own like theory, please put it in the comments. We look forward to reading it, but until next time, yeah. Yeah. Can I say one more thing? Leave a review. Yeah, can I say one more thing? Yeah. If you're going to push back on anything we've said tonight, I ask one thing.

When you're doing it, don't take it from the perspective of you doing your research and knowing the end, like going, like being further in this story where you are privy to information that I'm not privy to yet or information that Stephanie may need. know, but hasn't disclosed to us yet because she's going in chronological order. So if you're going to correct or dispute something that I said or Stephanie said, look at it from the perspective of where we are in the timeline. That's all I ask. And if there's something there, by all means, way in, let us know. But yes, Stephanie said it. We appreciate you being here. If you haven't already, like the video, comment, subscribe if you haven't. We're not going anywhere. We do this every week.

We'd appreciate your support to get more eyes and ears on this channel. And we have some good things coming in 2026 that when we talk about community and discussing these cases, not only from a historical perspective, but also from a perspective of information where we can learn from it, right? Like, this isn't something where Meredith did anything wrong, but the takeaway in this series is going to be how you interact with law enforcement, what you say and what you don't say. So you see what I'm saying here? It's almost like an encyclopedia for true crime where you can take these stories, these cases, and put yourself in certain people's shoes. so that you can do things differently if you're unfortunately ever faced with a similar situation.

That's what I take from it, honestly, is learning, being educated, being informed, and being more prepared for whatever you face, especially if you're involved with something similar to this, which I hope none of you ever are. Yeah, I mean, we can all say like, oh, what we would do and what we wouldn't do in these situations, you can't say that. And very true, I can say without a doubt, I would not make up some story about a person. I knew wasn't guilty of murder and then say they were. And I don't know in what circumstance I would have ever gotten to a point where somebody

made my brain so crazy that I thought that it actually happened to the point where I said it, said it again, denied a lawyer, said it again, and then signed a written statement. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. So I don't, I can't imagine that I would ever, ever do that. I might have, you know, been like maybe I did do it. You know, you could convince me into thinking maybe I did it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did. But to just bring Patrick in randomly, I don't know. I don't know. I don't think I would ever do that to someone. It does make you wonder at this point in the story, was there someone else that she's aware of that she just doesn't want to say? And why she wouldn't want to say that, we don't know. We'll have to wait for part four or what do you think in five part, six part? What are you thinking on this one? Don't ask me that. Don't ask. Too much pressure. Too much pressure. She's going to lie. I'm going to arrest. I'm overwhelmed. I don't remember. It was Patrick.

We guys, we appreciate you being. Patrick's writing the scripts. Patrick is writing the script. He did it. As always, guys, we appreciate you being here. Everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you next week. Bye.