Criminal - Deep Breath

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

World-class biathlete Kari Swenson was on an afternoon trail run in the mountains near Big Sky, Montana in July 1984 when two men blocked her path. They were Don and Dan Nichols, a father and son pair who later became known as the “mountain men.” This story was produced by 30 for 30 Podcasts from ESPN, and reported by Bonnie Ford. Find more at 30for30podcasts.com. Say hello on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Sign up for our occasional newsletter, The Accomplice. Follow the show and review us on Apple Podcasts: iTunes.com/CriminalShow. We also make This is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery. Artwork by Julienne Alexander. Check out our online shop.  Episode transcripts are posted on our website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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worth your attention, and they call these series essentials. This month, they recommend Wondery's Ghost Story, a seven-part series that follows journalist Tristan Redman as he tries to get to the bottom of a ghostly presence in his childhood home. His investigation takes him on a journey

involving homicide detectives, ghost hunters, and even psychic mediums, and leads him to a dark secret about his own family. Check out Ghost Story, a series essential pick, completely ad-free on Apple Podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of violence.

Please use discretion. Breathing is very important in biathlon. Some people take more breaths between shots. When I was skiing and competing, I would do one big breath, deep breath, and then you settle in on your shot and then pull the trigger. This is Carrie Swenson. In the 1980s, she was one of the best biathletes in the country. She competed in three world championships. A biathlon is a mix between cross-country skiing and rifle shooting. Competitors race carrying a rifle on their back,

and along the way have to stop at targets. They get one try to hit all of the targets before they can start skiing again. They do it both standing and lying down. But to hit those targets, they have to find a way to be still after skiing as fast as they can. To this day, I can sit down and I can mentally slow my heart down. Carrie started cross-country skiing when she was a teenager, but she'd always spent a lot of her time outside. She grew up in Montana, fly-fishing and hiking. The mountains, trails, rivers were never a dangerous place.

It was a place to enjoy, to be free, to have fun, and share it with family and friends. I never felt ever that I was threatened out in the mountains when I was growing up. I still don't feel threatened in the mountains, but I've had to work on that. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. In 1984, Carrie helped win a team bronze medal

in the Women's Biathlon World Championships in France. And that summer, she headed home to Montana to take a summer job at the Lone Mountain Ranch in Big Sky. She was just about to turn 23. This story comes to us from our friends at 30 for 30 Podcasts. Here's ESPN's Bonnie Ford. She lived on the grounds, waited tables in the dining room, and trained six days a week. In her spare time, she liked to visit the barns, where another ranch worker, Alan Goldstein, tended to the horses.

It was always amazing to watch him work with these huge animals. And so it was fun to watch him put shoes on those huge feet, I mean, the size of dinner plates. And you could just tell he loved his work, and he loved the horses, and he was gentle, and that's just the kind of person he was. Allen had recently remarried and moved to Montana from Michigan. Our family owned a men's retail clothing store for many years. That wasn't the life that my dad decided he wanted to follow. His teenage daughter, Jamie, had come to visit him the previous winter. We rode on horse-drawn sleighs.

We cross-country skied up the mountain to a buffet at the top of the mountain and then skied back down. We played ping-pong and pool and hung out. Big Sky was an idyllic place surrounded by unspoiled mountains and lakes. It was a perfect setting for Carrie's intense training routine. Whenever I had time off, I would go train, running, hiking, roller skiing. I was very familiar with all of the trails in that area, so I would just take off and go running by myself or with my brother.

On the afternoon of July 15, 1984, Carrie set out on a run. It was a normal day at Low Mountain Ranch. I helped with breakfast, and I got lunch ready. I had a quick lunch of my own, and I had heard about a trail that I wanted to try to find up by Ulrich's Lakes. So I drove by myself up and parked my car and took off running. It was a hot July day, so I had shorts and a t-shirt on, running shoes. The sun was shining, but I was running in the trees, so it was beautiful dappled sunlight. It was one of my slower, just kind of get out there and just put in the hours kind of run. I was probably about halfway through my run

and I came up over a little rise on the trail, and in front of me were two men standing there. I knew there was something different about them. And they had on dark clothes, they were camel clothes,

and they were dirty. It was like the instant I saw them, I knew they were not good people. I don't remember having the time to make a decision to turn around. My decision was to go by them. And when I tried to go by them, one of them stepped in front of me and stopped me. So I decided to just ask them, is this the trail that I'm on?

Is this the trail I'm looking for? And they didn't really answer me. I said, okay, thank you, and that's when I tried to go by him, and that's when he grabbed my wrist and wouldn't let me go. The old man told me that they wanted to take me into the mountains and keep me for a while to see if I liked living in the mountains with them. I started to scream. I tried to get away, and that's when the old man hit me in the face and knocked me to the ground and then was lying on top of me.

And at that point, he instructed the other man that was with him to get a rope. That's when I started figuring out it was a father and son. They tied my wrists together and stood me up, and they told me that they were going to take me into the mountains for a little while and that I will probably love being with them and that they're hoping that I would stay with them in the mountains. I thought they were going to rape and kill me. I can't, I mean, I can't imagine why anyone would want to take a woman into the mountains except to hurt them. My mind was going so many different places,

but it was all about how to get away from them. The younger man had a hold of the rope with my wrists, and he was marching ahead, and I was behind, and then the older man was behind me with his gun trained on me. And all along, I kept telling him, you know, people are going to be looking for me. I'm supposed to be back at the ranch to serve dinner. And they said, if anybody finds you, we will kill them. The father and son decided to stop for the night in a small clearing.

They wrapped a chain around Carrie's waist, looped it around a tree, and padlocked it, pinning her back against the rough bark. The old man took off by himself, I think, to try to hunt a squirrel. So I was left alone with the young man. He looked about my age or a little younger. He showed me drawings of naked women. I was in a very vulnerable place

where I was there captive. I was unsure of where we were, what was going to happen to me. So it made me more frightened of being sexually assaulted. The older man came back at that point, and it was getting dark, and I was just like, where am I going to sleep for the night? And I said, please don't rape me. Please don't hurt me. And they're like, no, no, we're not going to. We're just going to keep you for a couple days until you decide you want to be with us. When Carrie didn't show up for her dinner shift at Lone Mountain Ranch,

her brother and co-workers were worried. Her car was still where she had parked it, at the Ulries Lakes trailhead. Grizzly bears had been sighted in the area. Her family and friends moved quickly. Well, we got the phone call that Carrie was missing, so we called a number of friends, and the people up at the ranch got together to start the search. A local pilot took Carrie's father, Bob,

on an aerial search of the dense forest as light faded. Carrie's mother, Janet, packed first aid supplies. She and other volunteers tried to retrace Carrie's steps on the trail, continuing long after darkness fell. They didn't know it at the time, but they came within less than a mile of where she lay captive. I could hear everybody searching for me. I could hear people yelling my name.

I could hear motorcycles, vehicles. I heard a plane flying over, and I kept telling them that these are people looking for me. And they kept saying, well, if anybody walks in here, we're going to shoot them. As the men slept, Carrie lay awake, cold, still chained to the tree, unable to move, looking at the sky through pine branches almost close enough to brush against her face. It was a full moon that night, and so I watched it all night long.

Around midnight, the searchers decided to stop and regroup at dawn. Janet spent a few sleepless hours at the ranch, staring at the sky. And I just sat with this full moon and looked at the moon and just wished and wished and wished that she could hear me, that we would find her. The next morning when we finally got everybody organized and everybody had radios and maps, we went out two by two. From the ranch, I think we probably had 15 people, maybe more than that, and from town we had probably eight. Alan Goldstein, Carrie's friend from the horse barns at Lone Mountain Ranch, and another ranch worker, Jim Schwalbe,

paired up and headed out together just before daylight. It just got lighter and lighter, and the birds started to chirp, and squirrels started to squawk, and the bugs came alive again. And then Carrie heard rustling and voices. Alan and Jim had found the campsite. She tried to warn them off. I started yelling at him and telling him what was going on and to stay away

because these guys were going to shoot them. And I said, please, go away, go away, they have guns, they're going to shoot. I kept screaming and yelling and screaming and yelling, and the old man told the young man to shut me up. So the young man had his pistol drawn, and he walked over and stood right over me, and point blank shot me in the chest. He stood right over me, looked at me, and shot me. It was not an accident. His father had told him, shut her up. Jim rushed to Carrie's side. As Alan yelled at Carrie's captors to surrender, the older man lifted his rifle and fired a single shot. Alan fell backwards out of Carrie's sight, and Jim ran to get help. So here's one person shot and down, and me shot, and these guys are

just like, well, we got to get out of here. We have to leave because the other searcher got away. Carrie's captors unchained her, dumped her out of the sleeping bag, and fled, leaving her all alone. Her wound gurgled with every breath. All of a sudden, the gravity of my situation really kind of kicked in. I'm like, oh my gosh, I've been shot in the chest. And then that's when it started to hurt. It hurt to breathe. It hurt to move.

Excruciating pain. Taking a breath. I really couldn't breathe very deeply. That was the first time that I was really unsure that I would survive. I tried to move, and just any little movement was excruciating. And so I didn't move much. I just slowed my breathing down so I took shallow breaths but I was able to move air more slowly

and I think I would kind of like meditation I would take air in my nose and then out my mouth and try to calm my breathing down as much as possible if I fell asleep I might have died. So I stayed conscious as much as I could.

And I don't know how long it was before I finally heard a helicopter flying around above me. It was long. Using helicopters, the party finds Swenson, four hours after being shot. Apparently kept alive by the years of training. A lesser physical specimen could not have survived. Yeah, 10-4, that'd be great. The bullet had entered Carrie's chest just under the collarbone

and exited below her shoulder blade, leaving her with a collapsed lung. The breathing techniques she'd learned in biathlon had kept her stable until rescuers arrived. She was airlifted out of the woods and transported to the nearest hospital where her parents rushed to meet her. The ambulance pulled up with Carrie. Her hair was full of pine needles and sticks, and her clothes were all full of sticks and stuff, and I couldn't figure out what was going on exactly. At that point, I don't think I was really thinking very well until they put the x-ray up on the reader,

and you could see that her lung was filling with blood. Carrie's teammate, Pam Weiss, was on her way from Wyoming to Big Sky to train with Carrie. The Swensons left word at Lone Mountain Ranch for Pam to meet them in Bozeman. I just got in my car and started to drive up, which is in a river canyon a lot of the way. And I knew that these guys hadn't been caught yet, were still at large. And I have to say that my imagination worked extremely overtime as I was driving up and it was dark out. And I kept thinking that they were going to just jump out onto the road and somehow stop my car and abduct me too. I guess it was just such a, something that you never ever imagined would

ever could have happened. And my next recollection is going to the hospital, seeing her in intensive care, and lying there in this bed all hooked up to things and looking extremely wan, but still smiling. And I noticed little things like her hands were still quite grubby and dirty. And I remember thinking, wow, they didn't even wash her hands up. It just made me think about the fact that she had been abducted and tied up and that she had been groveling around. And her fingers just showed all in the creases, the dirt around her fingernails. We didn't visit very long and I walked out

and immediately ran for the nearest bathroom and just threw up. A 23-year-old American athlete is in stable condition tonight after a bizarre ordeal, and there's a big manhunt on. She was kidnapped by two mountain men on Sunday, chained to a tree and shot, and a man trying to rescue her was killed. Alan Goldstein was found dead at the scene

with a gunshot wound to the face. He was 36. He left his wife, Diane, his daughter, Jamie, and two younger brothers. I mean, it would have been horrible, anybody dying but a friend. That was really horrible. In the summer of 1984,

Jamie was living in Columbus, Ohio, with her mother, Alan's first wife. It was my 15th birthday. We had gone to Top of the Nation, which was a restaurant at the top of nationwide plaza buildings here in Columbus. I'd had a virgin strawberry daiquiri and I was on the phone with a girlfriend and I was bitching because I was like, it's my birthday. And again, my dad didn't send me a birthday card. And I remember it as like, almost literally like call waiting, right? Looks through, can I speak to Mary Lou Siegel? Fine.

So I go down and get my mom and I get off the phone. And like 20 minutes passes. And I'm doing my thing as a teenager, writing in my journal or something. And my mom comes upstairs and she says, Jamie, you have to come downstairs and talk to us. And I'm thinking, what did I do now? And so I went downstairs and I was like, I want you to sit down. And that's when she told me, she said, your father was killed today in Montana. I felt this enormous immediate sense of guilt that I was just ragging on my dad for not sending me a birthday card and he's dead.

My sense of guilt only deepened when two days later, I did get a birthday card from my dad. As Allen's loved ones wrestled with grief, the father and son responsible for the kidnapping and murder had vanished into the wilderness. Lawmen combing the area found a message carved into a tree. Don and Dan Nichols live in these mountains. Authorities say they won't even hazard a guess how long this search might take. What changed the Nichols from people who chose to live off the land to men who were forced to live on the run? Don Nichols, the father, is known to be a man who can walk long distances. He is bragged of walking from Wyoming to Canada. The Nichols, known in the area as loners who spent long periods of time in the woods were instantly dubbed the mountain men. As they eluded the intense manhunt, speculation about their lifestyle ballooned.

But the longer it takes to find the Nichols, the greater the controversy about the case. Some people now view them as mythical mountain men, men trapped in the wrong century. Carrie came home after eight days in the hospital. She slept in a recliner in the Swenson's living room, with Janet hovering watchfully nearby. I think that the trauma, the mental trauma, I think was very much forefront in that part of my recovery where I don't think I slept much.

And if I did, I had lots of nightmares. Carrie was driven by the idea of rejoining the biathlon team. I mean, I did have a plan. I had a goal. As an athlete, my goal was to get back to competing. That seemed very far away at first, as she struggled to do basic things. Getting out of bed and going to the bathroom by myself was the first step. The first walks we did were just up and down the driveway or around the house. Carrie needed quiet and space to heal.

Later that summer, Janet decided to take her to their family cabin in the Gallatin Canyon, where they could hike familiar trails. She would say, well, I think I better walk a little bit further today. So we would pick a place to go and she would walk as far as she could and then she'd push it just enough until she'd start to sweat and start to hurt. So we'd go back and then she finally decided one day she was going to try and run. And she ran very slowly. It was a jog for about a mile. And she was so excited.

We were jumping up and down, yelling and screaming. And I said, well, how did that feel? And she said, oh, it really, really hurts. And I said, well, should you be doing this? She said, Mom, if I don't push, if I just sit back and don't do anything, I'll never get better. Support for Criminal comes from Apple Podcasts. Each month, Apple Podcasts highlights one series worth your attention, and they call these Series Essentials.

This month, they recommend Wondery's Ghost Story, a seven-part series that follows journalist Tristan Redman as he tries to get to the bottom of a ghostly presence in his childhood home. His investigation takes him on a journey involving homicide detectives, ghost hunters, and even psychic mediums, and leads him to a dark secret about his own family.

Check out Ghost Story, a series essential pick, completely ad-free on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's Scott Galloway, and on our podcast, Pivot, we are bringing you a special series about the basics of artificial intelligence. We're answering all your questions. What should you use it for? What tools are right for you? And what privacy issues should you ultimately watch out for? And to help us out, we are joined by Kylie Robison, the senior AI reporter for The Verge, to give you a primer on how to integrate AI into your life. So tune into AI Basics, How and When to Use AI, a special series from Pivot sponsored by AWS, wherever you get your

podcasts. By the fall of 1984, Carrie had built up enough strength to go to biathlon training camps. It still hurt to run. It still hurt to ski. She was afraid to be alone, but she kept pushing her limits. One year ago, Carrie Swenson was the best female biathlete in the history of the United States. Then she was kidnapped. The good news is she has returned to competition. We were all impressed with how fast Carrie had gotten back to being in really good physical shape. That, I believe, had been her best way of recovering both mentally and physically. Is there always pain when you're doing something athletic?

I have pain constantly, no matter what I'm doing. It's always there. I may have pain the rest of my life, yes. Carrie was determined to compete, but she didn't hold out much hope for winning anything. However, when the results were in from this year's National Biathlon Championships, Carrie Swenson had finished third overall and first in the five-kilometer competition. I missed the camaraderie, and I wasn't gonna just sit around and not do anything. I just, part of me was, I wasn't going to let this define who I was.

As Carrie started to reclaim her identity as an athlete, the two men who had so violently altered her life were flushed from the woods in December after five months on the run. The Nichols were found at a campsite less than two miles from the highway that stretches between Norris and Bozeman. My name is Bob Inez. I was a reporter for the Associated Press in Helena. Bob Inez had been covering this story from the moment Carrie was kidnapped.

He was struck by the growing media fixation on molding the story into some kind of Western saga rather than treating it as a brutal crime. The way the nickels were captured only added to the hype. Madison County Sheriff John France, tipped off by an area rancher, ventured into the Bear Trap Canyon on snowmobile yesterday afternoon alone. Climbed on his snowmobile, went up there without any backup or anything initially. The snowmobile was probably a metaphor for a horse, where you have the sheriff riding into the gang's camp and taking them without a shot. I raised my rifle right about here, and I yelled at him not to do anything foolish. I said,

please don't make me kill you. In the middle of the night, I'd get calls because of the time difference from news outlets in Europe. And they would want to do over-the-telephone interviews with me. And what I gleaned from it was they had this fascination with the Wild West still. And the concept of mountain men abducting somebody to make her the bride of one of them and to live with them in the mountains was so exotic, so outlandish that it played into that concept of the Wild West. And when I would do these interviews in the middle of the night, that's when it dawned on me that this had repercussions that went far beyond Montana and far beyond the United States.

And that's where it really morphed into something more than I was expecting. Though authorities have often portrayed Nichols and his son as dangerous and violent, those who know the pair say they're not monsters, not cold-blooded killers. His mind is not a criminal mind, that's for sure. The media is always interested in what kind of people would do this. What is their background? So I think there were a lot of stories about them because there were a lot of people eager to tell their story. My name is Carol Van Valkenburg. I'm a

professor emerita at the University of Montana School of Journalism. Carol grew up in Montana and followed Carrie's story. She remembers the coverage slanting heavily toward the Nichols, but understands why the Swensons were cautious about trying to respond. I'm sure that they probably were not that interested in talking to the media. I think, you know, in that circumstance, what do you have to defend? You know, I think you want to probably distance yourself from having to discuss what a traumatic thing that was, both for Carrie and for her family. The trials for the Nichols were set for May and July of 1985 in Virginia City, a preserved frontier town that looked like something out of a Western movie.

As Carrie prepared to confront the Nichols, the fable of the Mountain Men continued to dominate. Carrie had become a bit player in her own very real drama. One of this year's strangest news stories came from Montana. It involves kidnapping and murder, and one of this country's most enduring legends, that of the Mountain Men. It began like a fairy tale,

a beautiful girl on a sunset run in the Spanish peaks, but waiting in the woods for Carrie Swenson were two men, a father and a young, lonely son. Speaker 1 Speaker 2 Speaker 3 Mark Roscoe, the lead prosecutor on Carrie's case, tried to defuse the media mythologizing

during the trial. He argued that it painted a falsely rosy picture of the Nichols and their motives. Yet Roscoe, who later served as governor of Montana, said the label persists to this day. There's a romantic notion, I think, that they were rugged, that they were survivors. These two guys were anything other than mountain men. They were thieves and brigands, and they were feral men who stole what they wanted. They took what they wanted. Yes, they lived in the mountains, but you could probably think of other things to call them that were certainly not flattering. On one day, we had a busload of people unload out front,

and they came into the courthouse, and they thought that this was a dramatic presentation that was taking place. But the stage was deadly serious for Carrie, who told her story publicly for the first time from the witness box, mere feet away from the Nichols. They were clean-shaven and neatly dressed, and looked nothing like they had when they forced her off the trail. This wasn't some fairy tale. It wasn't going to all turn out all right. It didn't all turn out all right. So, you know, Matt Dillon wasn't going to come in on his steady, reliable steed and, you know, ask Miss Kitty what he needed to do and 6 months in prison for kidnapping and assault. Don Nichols received an 85-year sentence for the murder of Alan Goldstein and Carrie's kidnapping and assault. But media fascination with the father and son didn't end with the verdicts. This bizarre tale begins with two Montana mountain men, a father and a son, who had become loners. Bob Brown relives the story with the mountain men, Don and Dan Nichols, and their reason at first

sounds almost romantic. I agreed with the basic idea behind the time, you know, get a girl and keep her long enough to get used to it. I met girls like that that are up there looking, trying to even live in the mountains by themselves. I said, and I thought that's what Kerry was. People have trouble seeing what you did as anything other than a little crazy. The approach... You mean you think this is crazy to restrain a girl?

I think there is a real curiosity about who would be these kind of people who would do this kind of thing. What brought them to that point? And I do think that is something that journalists really had a responsibility to try to cover. But how they covered that, I think, is another matter. The families felt the tone of the coverage overshadowed their suffering and loss and diminished Carrie and Alan. I think for a long time I had had an innate sense of dissatisfaction with how my dad's story had been told. He was relegated to two or three lines in pretty much everything. I mean, outside of how I felt about how my father's death was covered,

the fact that pretty much all of the media attention focused on Don and Dan Nichols, and very little on Carrie. That's super important to me, that people know that he was a good man, and he had a daughter who loved him, and he had a wife who loved him and he had a wife who loved him too. That's okay. My dad was a hero. My dad was that kind of guy, right? He would stand up and do pretty much anything for anyone. He did the best thing and the right thing.

He just didn't come out on the winning side of it. But I'm glad she did. Carrie channeled her energy into training and competing for the next couple of seasons. In February 1986, she raced at the Hohmann-Cohen Ski Festival in Oslo. It is an amazing spectacle, a biathlon race there, because the king, queen of Norway show up, and thousands and thousands of people fill this stadium.

And the crowd is amazing, and they support any athlete. I was having an amazing race that day, and all of a sudden I heard this name, and crowds chanting Swenson, and I'm like, that's me? They're cheering me on? Oh my gosh, it was kind of overwhelming.

Carrie finished fourth. To an outsider, it might seem as if she had made a full comeback. But she felt differently. Her injuries had robbed her of the edge she needed to be exceptional. She knew this would probably be her last race, and she savored the moment. During the medal ceremony in Norway, the athlete who finished right above me pulled me up onto her podium with her so that we could share it together. To be able to have come from where I was to, I mean, that was probably the best race of my life.

I retired from biathlon in the spring of 1986. At that time in my life, I really needed space. I needed time away. Carrie moved to Colorado to attend vet school. One passion would replace another. She might have tried to stick it out if women's biathlon had been in the Olympics, but that wouldn't happen for another six years. By that time, she and most of her contemporaries had moved on. The sun is coming up. The birds are tweeting. It's a beautiful day. I went for a lovely run yesterday with my dog,

Rudy. And as I was running along, enjoying the beautiful air, the smells of spring, and listening to the birds, I was just amazed at how strong my body is. I was able to run without any pain and just enjoy the moment. She's grateful for those days, but there are others where her past is more present. She often has trouble sleeping. Shrapnel left by the gunshot wound shows up every year when she has her mammogram. And scar tissue still inflames the nerves on her right side. It's especially bad when I'm exerting myself,

which is a problem because I'm always exerting myself. I feel it at least once a week. There are more subtle reminders, too. When Carrie goes hiking, she counts the cars at the trailhead. I know how many people I've met on the trail. I look for shoe prints in the mud, so I know, is there anybody ahead of me still after all these people I've seen come back?

Is there still tracks going in the same direction that I am? The sound of a helicopter still elicits fear and takes her back to the day when she was rescued. She feels a powerful urge to flee when someone even playfully grabs her wrist. And it's only recently that she's embraced the sight of the full moon, which illuminated the worst night of her life. Full moons are beautiful.

They're gorgeous. And so just about three weeks ago, I was sitting out in my hot tub and it was a beautiful clear night. And a full moon, last full moon we had. And my dad passed away about three years ago. So I was sitting in the hot tub looking at this moon. I'm like, you know what? Dad, moons are okay. This piece originally aired and was produced for ESPN's 30 for 30 podcast. You can find a longer version of the Carrie Swenson story in their feed. 30 for 30 podcast features long-form narrative documentaries that are, yes, about sports,

but you don't need to be a sports fan to enjoy. I think the show is just great. Their episode about a Russian spy who bought a basketball team is one of my favorites. Check it out. Their sixth season is out now. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts or at 30for30podcast.com. This piece was reported and produced by Bonnie Ford,

produced and sound designed by Mitra Kaboli. Original music by Sarah K. Pedonati, also known as Lip Talk. Editing on the story by Deirdre Fenton, Jodi Avergan, and Aaron Lydon. Special thanks to the Swenson and Goldstein families. Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Susanna Robertson is our assistant producer. Audio mix by Rob Byers.

Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show. Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collection of the best podcasts around. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. Radiotopia.

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