Criminal - Protection

Episode Date: December 21, 2018

John "Sonny" Franzese was once described as "largely responsible for the glamorization of the Mafia over the past century.” He'd been active in the Colombo crime family since the 1960s. And then, when he was 93, he was given an 8-year sentence. The evidence that helped convict him came from the last person he expected to wear a wire. For a transcript of this episode, send an email to [e-mail] with the episode name and number. Say hello on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Sign up for our occasional newsletter, The Accomplice. Artwork by Julienne Alexander. Check out our online shop. Criminal is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX. Please review us on Apple Podcasts! It’s an important way to help new listeners discover the show: iTunes.com/CriminalShow. We also make This is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Criminal comes from Apple Podcasts. Each month, Apple Podcasts highlights one series worth your attention, and they call these series essentials. This month, they recommend Wondery's Ghost Story, a seven-part series that follows journalist Tristan Redman as he tries to get to the bottom of a ghostly presence in his childhood home. His investigation takes him on a journey involving homicide detectives, ghost hunters, and even psychic mediums,

and leads him to a dark secret about his own family. Check out Ghost Story, a series essential pick, completely ad-free on Apple Podcasts. Botox Cosmetic, Adabotulinum Toxin A, FDA approved for over 20 years. So, talk to your specialist to see if Botox Cosmetic is right for you. For full prescribing information, including boxed warning, visit BotoxCosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit BotoxCosmetic.com. That's BotoxCosmetic.com. I remember there was one particular classroom, Mrs. Kramer allowed this girl to do current

event articles on my father. It was really bad. And my mother went crazy, and she went and confronted the teacher. I don't think she ever really liked me, Mrs. Kramer. I surmise to this day that she didn't like me because of my family. This is John Francis Jr. He was born in 1960 on the north shore of Long Island. His father, John Sonny Francis, was the longtime underboss for the Colombo crime family, one of the so-called Five Families of New York. There's never been a guy like Sonny, an FBI agent once said. There'll never be another guy like Sonny, the last of a dying breed. What type of father was your father like? What type of father was he? I'm glad you

asked because as a dad, he was a really great guy. I know he loved me playing baseball and I was, I remember this because it was really important to me. But my first year of baseball, this is the, one of the best times of my dad I remember. I was really bad my first year. And I made the last out of the last play. And I hit the ball. And I was so happy I hit it. I ran so fast to first base, but I got called out because I was out. And I was all depressed. Like I thought I'd get my one hit. And I thought my dad would be really upset because, you know, I always thought he wanted me to be this great player. And I'm sure he did. But when I was walking back with my head down, he said, hey, son, don't feel bad. He says,

you got better all year long. He says, you see the way you hustled on that? That's all that matter. You made contact. That's a start. Next year, we'll make more contact. And I was surprised. And these days, I often wonder if it was me so much that I wanted to please him. I thought he wanted different things for me than he actually did. John's father, Sonny Francis, was born in Naples in 1917 and grew up in New York City. Sonny's father, Carmine, ran a bakery in Brooklyn, where reportedly sometimes he put people he didn't like into the oven. Sonny was arrested for the first time when he was 21 for assault, and he was discharged from the Army during World War II because of, quote, homicidal tendencies. Then, according to Life magazine, he fought and murdered his way into the mafia's front rank. He hung out with Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. at the Copacabana nightclub.

In 1967, he went to prison for bank robbery and has been in and out ever since. He's never been convicted of murder, but he once said, I killed a lot of guys. You're not talking about four, five, six, ten. In that same conversation reported by prosecutors, he explained how best to dispose of a dead body. It involved a microwave, a kiddie pool, and patients. Because he lived on Long Island, people said Sonny Francese brought the mafia to the suburbs. What was life like around the house?

Well, my dad would leave after we left for school, and he'd always be home for dinner. And he'd always take us to work when he had off. So we generally would go into Manhattan. He had offices there, generally music business and entertainment field, is what I thought was his job. Sonny Francis did a lot of business with a lot of different people, sometimes in the

music business, also the film industry. He helped fund the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Deep Throat. He had a financial interest in various nightclubs, restaurants, and strip clubs. But Assistant U.S. Attorney Christina Poza once said he's never held an honest job for a day in his life and is largely responsible for the glamorization of the mafia over the past century. I remember kids would always say from, like, fourth grade on that I was the richest kid in school. We never needed for anything. If he needed one baseball glove, he'd get three.

When he was a kid, he got a dirt bike. And when he got older, he got a new car every year, sometimes more than one a year. John told us he spent about $18,000 a month on clothing, except for one month when he spent $31,000. He never left the house with less than $1,500 cash in his pocket. This was the late 70s. Did you ever watch The Sopranos of the Godfather? Yes. What do you think about the way that organized crime, the mafias portrayed in those shows? Well, I think The Godfather did an accurate job of little things people don't notice. But The Sopranos did at times, but they over...

It was phenomenal. I love The Sopranos. But there, but they over, it was phenomenal. I love the Sopranos. But there are some things that are silly. I don't remember exactly what. But it was just too over the top sometimes. Like Tony keeping his money in his house. That doesn't happen if they keep some money, but not those kind of amounts of money. Because you know you're going to get arrested someday, or they might come and raid you.

Growing up, John knew his family had money. He knew his father was somebody that people talked about. But he didn't really know what was going on until his older brother sat him down and told him the honest truth about the family business. And, I mean, he explained everything about captains, the boss, the underboss, the consigliere. And I'm just kidding, Aaron. It's like the minute he said that, I felt like I belonged. Like all these years I had been, like, confused about something. And when he said that, I liked it. And from that moment on, he was talking like, this is our life. So I assumed, okay, this is my

life too, I guess. John started hanging around with his brother and father and other Colombo crime family associates. He called them all uncles, and he felt grown up. He remembers that people would get out of their way. They could get into any club they wanted. Then he started to actually do some work for his father. Sonny had too much FBI surveillance on him, but John was still young.

He could move around more freely. He would deliver messages. He says often they were in code, and he didn't know what they meant. He remembers that sometimes the message would be about vegetables, whether something was a good vegetable or not, where it was grown. By the time he was 18, John says he was working as a bag man, collecting and dropping off bags of extortion money. I became a bit of a bully. I took advantage of things because I could. It was more like, you know, it just happened and I played the part. And I realized, well, around that time,

I remember the one thing that my dad actually asked me. He said, I'll give you anything you want on this earth. And one thing I'm going to tell you is never embarrass us. Don't ever embarrass us. And I remember those words. On June 4, 2008, Sonny Francis, along with fellow Colombo family members, was indicted on charges of racketeering conspiracy, robbery, extortion, narcotics trafficking, and loan sharking. It obviously wasn't Sunny's first time in court, not by a long shot. What made this trial different was the

presence of one FBI informant in particular, an informant who'd worn a wire for eight months and could talk to Sonny the way few others could. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. I'm a rat. I mean, I am. But there's a little difference. Doesn't make it better, but there's a difference. I didn't do it to get out of trouble. I did it because our way of life is a bad way of life. I felt I owed something. John's testimony against his father was big news.

Headlines like, Mafia boss faces prison after son breaks code of silence. John was repeatedly called a turncoat and a rat. One New York Post headline read, Rat's my boy. What is that like to be telling your story, you know, to the outside world? You know, a lot has been said about you by the media, right?

A lot of people have talked about you. But what is it like for you to be talking about your experiences on the other side? Well, this is odd for me. He's been through a lot. He first went into rehab when he was 25. He says he would disappear and then show up at his family's house, a mess. Now, my mom would let me in the house, but you don't want to go in the house with my mother while I'm stoned and high. She was a terror. You'd rather be around my father.

My mom wasn't afraid of anything. She'd blow you high and you're drunk. It was terrible. He stole money from his family. He'd blow you high and you're drunk. It was terrible. He stole money from his family. He says he once stole his sister's car. Like something would happen, I'd get arrested, I'd get sick. I'd come home to my mother's house, and then I'd start a period of, let's say, seemingly reconstruction,

only to drink or get high again. I contracted HIV and diagnosed in 1990. I know I got it in before 86 because I stopped using needles in 1986. And so for 11 years of my life, and I'm going to this 12-step program. I'm not going to mention the name. I'm not supposed to. It's anonymous, but I could say 12-step. Okay, so I'm going to this 12-step program from 1985 till 2001, and I'm drinking and getting high the whole time through it. He says things started to change when he met a guy at a meeting. His name was Daryl. He was never afraid to tell me, you are so sick. He'd tell me I was sick in the head, that I don't even understand anything,

and why are you dressing like a, you're a 41-year-old grown man, you're dressing like a rap star at 41 years old, and he'd just say all this stuff. And somehow, all of this came bearing down on me. He applied for Section 8 housing and for disability, and he stayed sober. Then in 2004, he got a call from the FBI. He says it's common for FBI agents to call members of mob families and try and get them to flip. Just part of the business. But on this day, maybe because his life was different, John listened. The FBI agent asked John if he'd been willing to gather information about his father, Sonny.

I said, okay. I'm sorry. essentials. This month, they recommend Wondery's Ghost Story, a seven-part series that follows journalist Tristan Redman as he tries to get to the bottom of a ghostly presence in his childhood home. His investigation takes him on a journey involving homicide detectives, ghost hunters, and even psychic mediums, and leads him to a dark secret about his own family. Check out Ghost Story, a series essential pick, completely ad-free on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's Scott Galloway, and on our podcast, Pivot, we are bringing you a special series about the basics of artificial intelligence.

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a special series from Pivot sponsored by AWS, wherever you get your podcasts. John Francis was approached by the FBI in 2004 to provide information about his father. And for much of 2005, he wore a wire and recorded any conversations he could. What was the evidence that you provided? Oh, there was like 400 hours of tape. In a March 10, 2005 recording, Sonny scolded John for failing to collect an overdue extortion payment. He said,

I would have grabbed Carmine and told him, Look, you rat bastard, go out there and get the money and bring it here. And if he doesn't give it to you, leave him on the floor. John also recorded conversations between Sonny and other Colombo family associates about extorting strip clubs and a pizza place. During one, someone says, You can't go in and bang their brains out.

You gotta make yourself known. You gotta be nice and easy. John also got his father on tape admitting he was the underboss of the Colombo family. During Sonny's 2010 trial, John explained why he became an FBI informant. He said, I wanted to change my life.

They would provide a means for me to change my life. Sonny's defense attorney suggested that the reason John informed on his elderly father was because the government was paying for his HIV treatments. He did it for the money, the lawyer said. There's no other reason. John's brother called it a betrayal and told reporters, the family is taking it very hard.

Sonny Francis was sentenced to eight years in prison. He was 93. John's testimony also led to the conviction of three other Colombo family associates. Did you think to yourself, what will my father think of me? I know my father loves me. That's just the kind of guy he is. He may hate what I did, but he just takes everything in stride.

He's him. My sister Lorraine once said to me when I was a kid that our father has no cognitive dissonance. He was a gangster, and he thought like a gangster. He never left that mentality. You want to know why, I know this may sound crazy. Me and my dad had an understanding that no matter what, we don't let anyone kill anyone in our family. I do know that there probably are people who would kill me.

What happened when you entered Witness Protection? Tell me the first steps and where you went and who you became. Hey, this is kind of important to me because the government, all through this, they weren't perfect, but I always knew where I stood clearly. I know that that was never the case with my mom or my dad. The United States government was very fair. It's a very weird thing they throw your phone in a sink what you standing there and you watch it explode or whatever it jumps around all your pictures and everything that's difficult but they do prepare you. There's a psychological evaluation you go through. And then you go to a, I went,

they took me to a place and I stood there about four months. You stay by yourself. You travel with a travel ID, different name. It's not your stationary or permanent. It's transitory. And they give it to you on the plane. And then they take it back from you when you get in the darn hotel. So now it's pretty scary because I'm staying in a hotel with no ID. And they did make consolations for me too. They said, I asked them for, I think I asked them for two things, that I didn't lose my disability or Medicare, and that I could go to 12-step meetings anytime I needed to. He was relocated to Oklahoma City, and initially he was given $1,200 a month to live on.

Then he says he was sent to Dallas, and then sent to South Carolina. He was there for two years. But he got scared. He told a friend too much. And so they moved him again, to Austin. And then in 2008, he was sent to Indianapolis.

The government asks you to keep your same story. Just don't say the locations or be specific. So it was very easy for it to fill right in with, yeah, I'm from New York. Sometimes people ask you, is your dad home? Is your mother home? Why don't you speak to them? And so I just said, my family's not happy with me.

In June of 2017, Sonny Francis was released from prison at 100 years old. There are some newspaper stories about his release, and on one of them, someone posted a comment saying they knew John and that he was living in Indianapolis. John says he was told he needed to relocate immediately, but he said no. He was sick of moving around. He left the Witness Protection Program. He's been out for a year now. Have you, um, have you spoken to your father?

No, I haven't. Do you think you will to your father? No, I haven't. Do you think you will before he dies? Well, it's a funny thing. I tried, when I was in the program, I tried to write a letter. And I think the program said, at first they allowed me to send letters to my mom and dad, and I did. And he never spoke to me. Well, my mom said he got the letter and he said he loves you. Maybe she was just saying that.

I don't know. I haven't gotten any response from him. Do you have a relationship with your brother, with your other siblings? I think within our family and the neighborhood, people we know would kind of shun them if they knew they were talking to me or close with me. It's hard for people to forgive or, well, who the hell am I thinking? I would have never forgiven me either. So I understand how they think. And that's just the way it is. And, you know, my brothers and sisters have kids. And their kids come from those neighborhoods and have a family, you know, our cousins and the people they know, it might bring some unwanted difficulties to them.

But I think personally, my brothers and sisters love me. I'm sure we would get along well if we were together, whether they said it or not. We talked with him in his home in Indianapolis. His life now is different from how he grew up. No fancy cars, no expensive clothes. He lives in a small apartment with his cat. It's funny to think about the life that you've had.

And then to think about you here in this little house in Indianapolis, tucked away. Are you scared sometimes? Honestly, yeah. Yeah. Every now and then that gets to me. When we were finishing up this episode, I sent John a text message. I asked what, if anything, the Witness Protection Program told him when he decided to leave. Here's what he replied.

Three days after I signed out, the Assistant U.S. District Attorney called me and asked if I wanted to go back in the program. She also said if I had any problems, to please call her. That they would always be as helpful to me as they could, but to let them know if anything didn't seem right. They also implied that it would not be a good idea to go to New York, and that there's a very good chance that people are still looking to hurt me. John doesn't seem to want to go back to New York and to his old life anyway. He likes Indianapolis. He named his cat Indy.

But he still talks and worries about what people might think of him and what he did. I think it's hard to talk about. I think if people see my life, if people see my life, they might understand better. Look, I think it's really good to set a goal, go out and become successful. I like that. I don't know if that's... This is better for me.

I'm built like this better. I fit better here. Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Our senior producer is Nadia Wilson. Audio mix by Michael Rayfield and Rob Byers. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. We're on Facebook and Twitter, at Criminal Show. Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX,

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