Criminal - The Big Lie

Episode Date: February 13, 2026

In the early 2000s, the hip hop group Silibil N’ Brains seemed like they were on the brink of becoming very famous. They had a record deal with Sony, had been on MTV, and were talking about making a TV show. But they weren’t who they said they were. Gavin Bain's book is California Schemin'. Say hello on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. Sign up for our occasional newsletter. Follow the show and review us on Apple Podcasts. Sign up for Criminal Plus to get behind-the-scenes bonus episodes of Criminal, ad-free listening of all of our shows, invitations to virtual events, special merch deals, and more. We also make This is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery. Artwork by Julienne Alexander. Check out our online shop. Episode transcripts are posted on our website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This week on the show, Esther Perel, is on my couch. Erotic recovery is part of trauma healing. God, that's interesting. It's not the reward at the end. Yeah. That's the difference. And I think we both come together around that construct. Yeah.

Find fashion neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode contains language that may not be suitable for everyone. Well, let's just jump right in and let's just start with you introducing yourself. Oh, God. And it's not a trick quite. It's like a very simple, just what's your name? You just started off with the hardest question. This is Gavin Bain, but for years, he went by another name. It all started in 1998 on his first day of college in Dundee, Scotland,

When he met another student named Billy Boyd. I was running late. I was skateboarding in, and I saw this guy standing outside the campus just nonchalantly. I mean, I'm Russian. This probably sums up both of our personalities. I'm rushing. I'm thinking, God, you've messed us up already, you know? And he's just standing there.

He's got like a bag of jeans on, hair cornrolled. a Hansen t-shirt I don't know why he's wearing that but he's listened he's just got his headphones on and I can I skid past him and stop and I'm like hey have I got the time wrong

why aren't you inside and he's got Narvana I can hear that that's blasting he's got it so loud and he looks at him and he's like what do you want he's so offended that I've interrupted Nirvana and then I kind of rush off in

and I'm like oh man first person I meet looks really cool and I've just like made an enemy out of the first person. But then I get lost. I go into the wrong class. After a while, he managed to find the right classroom. He was 45 minutes late, and the only seat left was next to the guy he'd met out front. And when we were in close range, he was looking at my bag, and I was looking at his bag. And I had rage against the machine, Cyprus Hill, Wutan Clan badges on my backpack. And he had the same, but he had corn, and he had some other

like metal bands mixed in with Tribe Called Quest. So it was like together we covered the entire gamut of the coolest bands in the world at the time. And he had Limp Biscuit. So yeah, we just kind of cracked it off. We started to talk in quotes from kind of rap films from the early 90s. Yeah, we were just, it was just straight in with a flow. And by lunchtime, we were freestyling quietly at first. And then by the end of lunchtime, we had performed our first gig in a way.

Everyone was kind of gathered around us, and we were rappers. And on the way home, I turned to them and said, hey, do you want to be a rap group? And he was like, I was a fucking lily. And that was it, we were a rap group. They practiced all the time, competing with each other to make up the smartest and funniest lyrics they could. on the spot. So we created a game called Porcupine and that was a way for us to battle

wrap each other but then also throw each other words and then we'd just start freestyling off the word. And why did you call it Porcupine? Because some people think that's a hard word to rhyme with but when someone throws a hard word like Porcupine it can make the game funner.

But also we would use it as like that would be the last word to try beat the other person with. You could They didn't win the game unless you ended with something to do with a porcupine. They started performing gigs in bars near their college in Dundee, and their friend Oscar joined the group. Gavin says their main influence was, quote,

the best white rapper we could think of, Eminem. Eminem released his major label debut album, the Slim Shady LP, in 1999, not long after Gavin and Billy had met. One reviewer wrote that his lyrics are so clever that he makes murder sound funny. One night, Gavin Billy and Oscar stayed out very late and ended up going back to Gavin's room.

Oscar got on the computer. I mean, the internet was kind of early days, so he just randomly found this thing that was on a website called underground hip-hop.com, and it was just this kind of flyer, this poster for, are you the next Eminem? And as soon as we saw it, we thought, yeah, of course we are. A record label is holding open auditions in London.

Gavin Billy and Oscar took a 13-hour bus ride there, playing Porcupine most of the way. But when they finally got to the audition, the line to get in went around the block twice. It was quite apparent there's just no way we're going to get in because there's far too many people here. And so what we decided to do was to go, was to go and ask if we could battle people for their spot.

So knowing hip-hop people, once you get challenged to battle, you can't say no. If you say no, you essentially step aside and let us just take your spot. So at first most people would say yes, and then we started battling. And eventually after you beat like 10, 15, 20 people, the C's part. And by the time we got to the front, there was so much. many people behind us kind of rooting for us like, oh my god, these guys actually are like eminent. So the feeling outside is that these three Scottish kids are just going to walk this. And so our confidence is so high. Well, as soon as we get in and we're going past these dance

studios and it starts to become very commercialized and we start to feel like, you know, so we're kind of shrinking as we got closer and closer and closer. When they got to the audition room, they handed the sound guy, their CD. Gavin remembers there were X's on the floor for them to stand on in front of a table with three English talent scouts from the record label, A&R's, sitting behind it. And then we said to press play and the guy presses play but he hasn't turned the volume up.

So by the time the beat comes in, it's already like halfway into the song. So we're like, no, no, no, please put it back to the start. And now we're just like shaking because it's all going wrong. So then we start to rap. And as soon as I'm the impact of a fat drum. I'm smacking max back to rockers acting handsome. I'm out of the mic. Starting with gab is like asking for a smack.

And after it lands, you need an aspen for that. And as soon as we start to rap, you know, you're hyper aware. The situation, you're so focused on everything. You're looking around the room. And when you're a rapper, you're constantly making eye contact with people because you feed off their response. And the three of these A&Rs were just like kind of looking at each other at the side of their eyes and kind of trying to stop themselves from laughing.

and in about 30 seconds in, 30, 40 seconds into my rap verse, they just kind of put their hand up to the sound guy and said, yeah, cool, cool, cool, that's enough. And then they just were kind of laughing, and one of them said, is this a joke? You know, did Dave put you up to this? And we said, no, this is a serious day. They said, this is a cool comedy act,

but not quite what we're looking for. You know, Scotland is groundskeeper Willie, it's Braveheart, it's Sean Connery, you know, it's drunk ginger people in skirts. Scotland is not rap. We can't sell that. Gavin says they all went straight to a pub after that. And while they were there, they decided to go and try to see someone else before they left London. I just thought they don't get it. So then let's go somewhere to someone who gets it. And there was a guy called Dave Loeb who ran Wordplay and the biggest hip-hop magazine in Europe hip-hop connection.

So I thought, let's go and see Dave, Loeb, and we'll ask him. You know, so we go there. It's kind of like this security, you've got to get past a security gate. So we wait for ages. Eventually a guy can bring in records, comes up the road. He goes in, we sneak in. We get to their office. Billy's trying to flirt with the lady on reset.

to buy his time to get in until he walks past. And eventually he walks past and we're like, Dave, you know. And we kind of like just don't want to leave. We're like, look, it's taken a lot to get here. We're not leaving until you give us like five minutes. So eventually we go into his office and we're like, here's our songs. Like let us know what you think. And he's like, all right, you know, so he starts playing the CD and he plays the first beat.

And he's like, oh, God, yeah. And you can see he really loves the beat. And then as soon as one of us starts rapping, he's like, nah, skips to the next one. And then the same thing, he's like, loves the beat and then skips to the next one as soon as vocals come in. And the third one, he loves the beat again, as soon as we start rapping, pulls the CD out. And he said, don't make me say it. And I said, no, say it. And he's like, you fucking sound like the rapping proclaimers.

And the proclaimers are great. They're an amazing Scottish group. they sing that classic song I will walk 500 miles and they're Scottish heritage but he's meaning it in a that they're a bit of a joke

you know like no rapper would ever listen to that you know Gavin says that he and Billy didn't say a word to each other for the whole 13 hour bus ride back home I kind of was really just trying not to cry and a part of me was like they are right though

you know I saw that if your job is in marketing at the time and hip hop was all about your credibility what you've gone through you know like what street you come from you know like the branding of rap in America was so powerful and Britain didn't quite have that yet and Scotland definitely didn't have that you know so they were right they can't sell it so I understood that but then that left me with the predicament of Well, then we can never do this. When Gavin got back home, he started spending more and more time alone, and he wasn't sleeping well. And then one night he was watching TV and a movie came on. A film that I'd seen loads from the 80s called The Secret of My Success. And there's a scene where Michael J. Fox's character, he's trying to get this job,

but he's a little small-town boy, and he's trying to make it in the New York City. And he's just getting turned down everywhere. You know, it's because he doesn't fit. They can't, he doesn't fit in their world. And he, he goes into this one office to get changed because he's not wearing the right thing and he's trying to like go to this meeting that he's got.

And in this office, the phone rings. And he picks it up and the person says, is that, you know, so and so. And he goes, yeah. And he starts to just pretend he is. And he gets so empowered that he can be that person. And I think like, well, Why don't we just become someone else? If being Scottish was the problem, then they'd become Americans.

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Growtherapy.com slash criminal. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Gavin started recording himself, rapping his lyrics with an American accent, just to see what it sounded like. So the first few times sober that I tried to record myself in the American accent, it didn't sound good, it sounded fake. Like, the way the tongue moves isn't the same is when you switch to another accent.

So I was struggling with that, and then I was thinking too much when I was sober. So then I took certain uppers with certain downers to knock myself off centre so I could stop being hypercritical about myself and allow myself to flow. And it sounded so good. It sounded real. It sounded like this kid is from California, and he sounds like Eminem. I liked the song so much that I took it to a party.

My friend Brian was throwing this big party, and he used to draw really cool parties. So he'd have DJs, and everyone who was into hip-hop in the area would be there. And so I go into the party, and I gave our DJ at the time, Skinny. I gave him the CD, and I was like, I'll play this. It's a new American rapper I just heard, play this. And he played it right after an Eminem song. And everyone was dancing and loving the Eminem track.

And then he played that song. And nobody, like, no one batted an eye. They were like, is this the new Eminem track or something? Like, they just thought it was Eminem or they thought it was an American rapper. And so I'm watching the room and I look at Billy and he looks over to me because he knows they're my lyrics. And he's just like mind-blown. He's like, oh my God, it sounds real. And then Gavin told Billy about his idea to pretend to be Americans.

Gavin says that Billy said no, but he did want to see what it sounded like, and he experimented with recording some of their songs in an American accent. A few weeks later, their friend Brian, who had thrown the party where Gavin played the song, died in an accident. Gavin and Billy drove to the funeral. together. On the way there, they listened to the radio. And then one of their songs came on,

with them rapping in American accents. Gavin says they each thought they were playing a trick on each other. But when they got to the funeral, Brian's brother told them that before Brian died, he'd entered the song into a national radio competition as a surprise, and that it had won. We'd be it every single rock band, every single fork act, every pop act, we won it. We won it. And the song was getting airplay and Billy finally kind of turned around and said, okay, let's do this for Brian. And so we were on our way.

Someone from Sony had heard the song on the radio and had gotten in touch to see if they could meet with Gavin and Billy in person in London in two weeks. So we had two weeks to perfect the accent. And so we made this agreement that we would speak to each other, all the time in American accent. Everything we did, we did an American accent. We'd have sex in American accents.

Wait, what? Which our girlfriends thought was really fucking annoying. That does seem really bad. I'm surprised they stayed with you. I'm surprised as well. But you only, did you know anything about Americans besides the movies? I mean, what did you think Americans?

We were, yeah, no, we were like, we'd just grown up watching American movies. We loved American stand-up comedy, and we just took a whole bunch of different characters, and we mashed them together. Gavin says they wanted to study interviews with American rap stars and skaters. But all they could really get their hands-on in time was a lot of. The DVD of Friends and a few American movies, Gavin started watching Back to the Future over and over again until he could say Michael J. Fox's lines along with him. He also watched a lot of Goodwill Hunting and studied Matt Damon's character. Billy studied Matthew Perry's character

in Friends, Chandler. They watched as many episodes as they could. Gavin says they paused it whenever Chandler said something funny and then tried to repeat it. They came up with new names for their American personas. Gavin Bain became Brains MacLeod, and Billy Boyd became syllable. They called their group, syllable and brains. They decided they would be from California. They picked a city called Hemet, where Billy actually had family.

Billy bleached his hair. Gavin tried out a trucker house. They both started wearing more colourful clothes. And at the end of the two weeks, they got back on the 13-hour bus ride to London. The first place they went with Sony Records to meet with Dougie Bruce, the scout who had heard their song on the radio. And as soon as he sits down, he's like, all right, boys, you know, and he's got this broad,

Glasgow accent, the first person, the first A&R that interviews us is Scottish. We're screwed at that point because when someone's Scottish is speaking to someone's Scottish, you start to kind of like you join, you know. And so we were talking and we were both finding it very difficult not to say Scottish words. And then eventually he said something. He said I and Bill went straight back with I can, which is I know in Scotland. And two Americans would never know to say I can. in the way that Bill said it.

As soon as we said that, he looked at Billy, and he looked at me, and it was like, he knows. So we felt like everything that we were saying, he was like, where are you boys actually from? And the way he said actually was like, he knows, this is, this is, you know, we're done here, basically. And when we left that outside of the Sony building, I grabbed Bill and I said,

this isn't gonna work if we're half-assed. Like, we need to be in, all in. like 24-7 we need to become the characters if this is going to work let's just be the the craziest version of

who we want to be turn it all up to 11 and let's just go you know and so as soon as we went to do a show that night we kick in the door you know we start stomping around like we own the place we did this crazy stage show

chasing each other around we're vomiting on the front road and then when we came off stage this guy came up to us he was like, where are you guys from? Now, earlier in the morning, when Dougie Bruce asked us, where are you guys from, we both answered at the same time because we hadn't even got our story in line. We were just so excited that we didn't even run through what our story is.

So in the morning, I said Huntington and Billy said Hemet. At night, with Chris Rock at Island Records, Billy says Huntington and I say Hemet at the same time and this guy is just looking at us like cool and he didn't he didn't care and he's like right here's my here's my card he slid his card to us and he's like come and see me on monday morning when you say you were like banging and stomping is that something you thought like americans did like they just kind of take the room yeah like if you watch if you grown up watching rap music videos we just basically became like our favorite rappers in those videos, you know.

But then in person with people, we would switch to characters from like friends, you know. And so we'd play it, Bill would play a version of Joey and I would play a version of Ross or Chandler. Because those are likable characters, you know? So we knew that when we're around people, don't be banging around. And also that's, those characters are actually closer to our personalities.

I mean, it really feels like two opposite ends of the spectrum to be Eminem on stage and Chandler off the stage. I don't really know how those two meld. You know, every artist I've ever met has been one person on stage and off stage, a completely different person. I had seen loads of interviews with members of Slipknot

and members of corn and all these kind of dangerous kind of rock bands, but actually they were like real sweethearts when the masks were off, you know? Gavin says that on Monday morning, after going over their story again, he and Billy went to Island Records to meet with Chris, the scout who'd given them his card at their show.

Now that we're American, he was selling himself to us. So it was a big change, you know? And so he was like, tell me everything about you guys. And that's a different question from where are you from or what do you do or, you know, because you kind of feel like you're being examined. So Bill and I just started telling the story, like, look, we're from this kind of cookie cutter neighborhood in Hemet.

And, you know, we met each other at the San Diego Vans Tour because we had known a lot about that tour specifically because the bands that played. We were really interested that. We had the DVD about it. So we actually knew some things that happened, and we knew that there was a battle rap competition that happened in the parking lot in that. So then we kind of incorporated that. And I said that, yeah, we met at that at the San Diego work tour, and then we moved to Huntington Beach, slept on the beach under the pier. You know, like, this is just like versions of chili pepper songs now coming out, you know. And then we got this job in this skate store, and then, you know, we became a rap group, came over here, ran it at money, and now you're going to give us a job.

record deal and let the fun continue. And the way it just flowed off the tongue, I was cutting each other off. It was like we were rapping. Gavin says Chris seemed to believe the story completely. Gavin remembers that he even told them it was beautiful. And he was like, you've got to do that thing that you did the other night, you know, because basically we had this thing that if anyone heckled us from our audience, we would just like pick that person out and then we would, you know, just tear into that person with freestyles. So he called all of that. the A&Rs into the main open area.

And he was like, all right, do that thing now. Go, and he's basically telling us to go around the room just ripping into everyone. And it was like, oh my God, you know. So like, this is it. And so we just started doing it, you know. Look at this guy in the fake Adidas.

Look at his beard. Who does he think he is? Jesus? You know, and just move on to the next person. And eventually we get to Chris. Everyone's like falling around laughing. We get to Chris and we start making fat jubes. and Chris was quite fat. And Chris was not laughing at this one. He started to look furious.

That the joke had now been turned on him, but as all of his staff were in tears laughing, and then they realized he wasn't laughing, and they all stopped. And then he just burst out laughing. And we knew that we've got it. Then we just felt like, God, this is easy. But Gavin says they couldn't just sign with the record company.

First, they needed a lawyer and a manager. Chris got them a meeting with one of the biggest music managers in London, a man named Jonathan Shalad. This guy is the Simon Coe, like the nicer version of Simon Coe. So he just gets straight to the point and he's like, what do you want? And at this point we had no money. We had no money left. So as soon as he said, what do you need, I don't know why I said it.

Maybe it was like a lane in another movie. But I said, we don't get out of bed, in an American accent, we don't get out of bed for anything less than 70K. And Billy looked at me like, what the holy crap, you know? But Jonathan Shalett said okay. And all of a sudden we had 70,000. For a couple of days after that, we kept going to the bank machine to see if the money was in. And every day that it wasn't in, we felt, like, okay, this isn't really real.

And then the day that the money was in, we'd both never seen that amount of money in our bank accounts. And I think that changed something a little bit because my head started to be like, hmm, what if, is this a crime? And then Billy was like, what if, is this our money? You know, that didn't stop us from immediately going out

and getting blutter drunk and having the best week of our lives getting hammered every single night. Jonathan Shallott's office helped get them set up in a big apartment and arranged for them to play at showcases around London, trying to see what kinds of offers came in. And it worked.

After about three months, they made a deal with Sony. They went into the office to sign the contract. Gavin remembers It was in a big boardroom, with staff there to help them celebrate. There was champagne. And people kept coming up to them to ask them about the stories they'd heard about them. A big part of the story was that we became very close friends with D12 and Eminem, which is quite a stretch.

But when you're like kind of improvising and acting, the whole point is the same as freestyle, is to make little links. and then let them grow and let them grow. So on that day, we're in Sony, and this girl comes up, and she's like, no way, you guys are from Huntington Beach? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. She's like, that's where I'm from. And I'm like, oh, no.

And she's like, I heard you worked in a skate store. Which one? I'm like, oh, no. And I say Slams City Skates. And she's like, no way, I work at Slams. I work there as well. And I'm like, oh my God, no. And I'm just dying inside.

So I'm smiling. I'm like, no way. That's cool. But like, I'm dying now. And I'm starting to sweat. I'm looking around for Bill. Like, I need help here. By this time, Gavin and Billy had developed a system for whenever anybody started asking questions about their lives in America.

They called it lead and recover. So the lead to recover system is that one listens and one answers. And so if I'm answering and Bill's listening and I start to stutter or make a mistake, Bill jumps in and either takes the person who's asking questions and takes them on a different direction or if it's getting real bad can just, you know, throw a hand grenade in or do something to kind of distract so that they forget what they were asking. So but then on this day, people are pulling Bill this way and we're not together. So we're not an earshot of each other. So I'm now done. I can feel the breathing, my breathing starting to, you're about to tell that I'm worried here, you know. And I'm holding on for dear life.

And then Bell turns and looks and sees my face and he knows. And so Bill knocks a Mariah Carey poster, a frame, like with a record in it off the wall and it cracks. And then everyone turns. and I sneak out of the room and go to the toilet, went to it down at the toilet, vomited, kind of washed my face. But by the time I went back in, Bill had kind of just got everyone going again, and, you know, she kind of forgot that line of questioning.

Gavin says they signed the contract, as syllable and brains, for 50,000 pounds up front, and 300,000 more when they released more material in their album. Did you have a plan? Did you say, okay, we'll go for this long or we'll make this much money and then we'll tell people who we really are? I remember in Dundee in Scotland

saying, look, this is what we do. We go down, we get a record deal, you know, we blow up overnight, get a number one record, obviously. As soon as I hear someone singing my words back to me, I'm good, I can walk from it. and then we go on Jonathan Ross's TV show

because Jonathan Ross is like the king of late-night TV here. And so we'll go on Jonathan Ross's show and then we'll just go, you know what, Jonathan? We're not American. We've never been to America. We're Scottish. And then we'd make a point to be like, we always had talent.

Why did we need to do this? Not long after they signed the contract, Gavin and Billy got an appearance on the UK version of one of MTV's most popular shows. Total Request Live. Please be hands together. For syllable and brains. What's up? What's up? What's up? Shut up.

Nice coming on, guys. You guys are great. Shut up. Boys, you are spanking new music. Spanking. How would you describe your sound? Spanking. Spanking. Spankingly new. Spankingly new. Comedy, humor.

Excellent. Well, you did a performance for us to try and drag this back from the edge of despair. Yes, you did. Mums is what it was called. Well, it wasn't called my Moms. Just your Mums. In general. In general.

Don't bring my mum into it, not on my own show. Let's take a look at it. It's very entertaining. Check it out. That's your moms. I was in luck. I wish she didn't know and she's my fantasy. That's your mom.

I got to have us. She's all I want. And then, on live TV, the host asked them another question. So were you guys from planet Zordan? Really, I can tell them. We're abducted by aliens when we're kids. and we travel around the sources to remember since then.

Gavin says that when he got home that night, he googled syllable and brains to see what people were saying about them. And there was this website and these forums that were like, what's Gavin Bill doing? All these people who knew us in our life were online going, wait, I know, like, what's going on?

One comment read, I had a fight with Gavin Bain in a chip shop once. Wasn't in America, though. This was Dundee. Your man's a Scott. Gavin says he and Billy got called into Sony's offices the next day. But when they got there, nobody said anything about them being from Scotland. Instead, Gavin says, they got the news that MTV wanted them to come back soon

and that there was even some interest in them hosting their own show. They started working on show ideas and going to meetings with TV producers. Gavin says Sony decided to wait to release Cillable and Brains first single until something happened with the TV show. And in the meantime, Syllable and Brains was touring as much as they could. There was a lot of drinking every single night, waking up the next morning, having two hours of not drinking and then back on it. And Bill and I at this point were starting to do backflips off drum risers.

We kept trying to up our stage show and it was kind of getting dangerous. By the end of the tour, they were exhausted. Gavin says he went to bed as soon as they got home at 6 a.m. And we've got like, you know, I think I sleep for one hour and then my phone goes at 7 a.m. And it's one of the managers at Jonathan Schaultz's office. And he goes, I've got good news and bad news for you. The bad news is you're not coming off tour.

The good news is you're going on tour with your best friends. and I'm thinking who's our best friends? And I'm like, who? He's like, M&M and D12. And so I'm like, I'm just like, oh my God, no. Like, how are we going to pull this off? We'll be right back.

Megan Rapino here. This week on a touch more, the one and only Flage Johnson joins us to talk about leveling up for the WMBA, managing NIL, money and how she's nurturing her music career. We're also taking a closer look at why participation in girls' sports is declining. Surprising, we know. And we're giving some love to Valentine's Day and what it's like dating a pro athlete and who's the best athlete couple of all time.

Check out the latest episode of A Touch More, wherever you get your podcast, and on YouTube. A couple of hours after Gavin Bain and Billy Boyd heard they'd be going on tour with Eminem and his Group D12, a tour bus picked them up to take them to the first venue. They were excited, but Gavin says they also spent the whole ride trying to figure out what to do. You know, anyone sees us for five minutes around them, they're going to see unfamiliarity. Like, this will be over as soon as we walk out in front of them, this will be over. So it was just like, let's just see how it goes. Maybe we can hide. Maybe we can stay away from them.

And so that we hold on to that, we think, all right, we'll just hide from them. We will not be in the same place they're in. We come out of our tour bus. We walk right in. There's D12 on stage, sound checking. And we're like, shit. And then we turn to go, but all of the load-ins happening so we can't get past the loading. The other side, all of our management team is there.

Next to them is a camera crew who are there for MTV filming D12 and M&M over, on this promotional tour. So there's nowhere to go. So the clock was just ticking in my head, like tick, tick in their sound checking purple pills. And we know when the song ends. And it's just a countdown to them walking past us. And so me and Bill are like looking each other,

not saying a word, but we're having a crazy conversation with our eyes. And as soon as the song finishes, I look at Bill and we kind of like, yeah, fuck it, let's go. And then we just stomp on the stage, like we own the place. We're like, what up? You know, it looks at high-fiving them. I high-five bizarre, and I'm like holding him.

I'm like kind of wrap my hands into his kind of belly and back so that he can't pull away from me. So it looks like he's hugging me tightly. And I'm like, ah, you know. And I think from a distance, it probably just looked like this was a warm embrace from friends. But up close, we could see their faces were like. they were going through, who are these guys again? But Gavin says they just went with it. They high-fived again and agreed to meet up after the show.

Gavin and Billy had never performed on such a large stage in front of such a huge audience, almost 5,000 people. Gavin says he'd never sweated so much as he did when they went on stage that night, and that once they got going, he never wanted it to end. They ended the set with a song They hoped to become their hit single Called Losers The Crowds

The crowd went wild for them It was everything they'd dreamed of And then after the show Gavin and Billy's lawyer pulled them aside. And he was like, you're Gavin and you're Billy, and I know it all. Gavin and Billy's lawyer had been asking them for their American passports for months and months. They always told him they couldn't find them and that they get them to him later.

And then he saw the posts on the hip-hop forum after their appearance on MTV, saying that they were actually Gavin and Billy from Scotland, not syllable and brains from California. And so he was really angry and he was like, you need to come with me. We need to speak to the label. I'm going to pull you off the tour. We'll go to the label. We'll talk it through. And we're just like, get lost.

You're like, what are you smoking? You know, we're like, we're just making out that he's completely crazy. But then he says this thing to us where he's like, I think he got Bill on this one. He was like, look, you didn't need to do this. You're so good. Why are you doing this? and I just laughed and Bill walked into the changing room

and Eminem was about to come down the hallway with the whole camera crew from MTV and Tim our lawyer was like okay so you're best friends with this guy okay let me ask him quick and he was going to stop Eminem and ask him and I was trying to call his bluff and I was like yeah ask him

and then he got closer and closer and closer and I just like freaked out and I just like ran in the dressing room which to Tim said you're right and yeah so that was very close but Tim didn't go to the label and we didn't get caught it just went on and on and on

Billy and Gavin kept touring and playing pack shows and their MySpace page started filling up with messages from fans they got an endorsement deal with a soda company Gavin had developed a stomach ulcer and it just it was getting so big you know, to the point where within two years, this is two years now, we haven't released the record,

we've got all this stuff going for us, and we haven't released the record. The amount of money that's been spent on us at this point is over a million. Gavin was barely talking to his family. He says it took him out of character. His girlfriend in Dundee had broken up with him after a visit during which he'd mostly spoken in an American accent. And he and Billy were drifting apart. Billy was going back to Scotland more often to visit his girlfriend and then he found out she was pregnant

Gavin says everything changed after that Billy had had enough So basically we have this big fight and it's one of those fights you can't come back from I'm afraid so essentially the group was over we didn't get caught and the fact that the group was over was kind of a

bit of a blessing because there was a clause in the contract that if the band breaks up before the record comes out then you don't have to pay the money back and so we essentially got away with not having to pay that money back I mean how did you announce it to the fans we kind of just didn't

we just kind of went away we went quiet Billy went back to Scotland and eventually got a job on an oil rig. Gavin stayed in London and tried to make it work without Billy. But Sony stopped taking Gavin's calls. He says it was hard to give up his American persona. He worked odd jobs.

For a while, he worked for an American skate shoe company. He spoke in an American accent when he applied, and they thought he was American. And then, a couple of years after syllable and brains split up, Gavin heard that one of his closest friends from childhood had cancer, and he decided to put on a show. And then do it as a comeback show and make that money and then give Ivan the money for his treatment.

But right before Gavin was about to go on stage, he heard that his friend had died. And so when I walked out on stage, I kind of just looked out and my band were playing the intro of the song and I was missing keys to go into the first lyrics and I tried to go into lyrics. I just couldn't get anything out. I was just like crying.

And so I stopped the music and I turned to the crowd and I said, I'm not brains. I'm Gavin. And I've never been to America. And so we got through that show and I came off, but I just went to the journey. dressing room and kind of couldn't really deal with everyone wanting to ask more questions. So I hid in there until everyone was gone and I snuck out the back.

And when I snuck out the back, there was about 200 kids. And I thought they wanted more answers. Like, what happened? And I just kind of started to apologize. And then they started to wrap my lyrics back to me. They cared only about the lyrics. Billy and Gavin didn't speak for years. But in 2012, they briefly got back together to record and finally release a syllable and brains album.

They called it Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Gavin went on to have his own music career. He's working on an album right now. So, yeah, I'm just having a lot of fun. And you're doing it all now in a Scottish accent. Yeah. Whatever accent hits me. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me.

Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Zichiko, Lily Clark, Lena Silison, and Megan Cunane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at this iscriminal.com. And you can sign up for our newsletter at this iscriminal.com slash newsletter.

Gavin Bain has written a book about syllable and brains. It's called California Scheminemann. A movie about their story with the same title is coming out this year. We hope you'll join our membership program, Criminal Plus. Now on Patreon. It's the very best way to support our work. You can listen to Criminal, This is Love, and Phoebe Reads a Mystery, without any ads.

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