Criminal - They Came for the Judges

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

When the Taliban took control of Afghanistan in August of 2021, they unlocked the prisons and freed prisoners, some of whom sought revenge on the women judges who convicted them. We speak with some of the judges in today’s episode. Say hello on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Sign up for our occasional newsletter, The Accomplice. Follow the show and review us on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/CriminalShow. Listen back through our archives at youtube.com/criminalpodcast. We also make This is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery. Artwork by Julienne Alexander. Check out our online shop.  Episode transcripts are posted on our website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Criminal comes from Apple Podcasts. Each month, Apple Podcasts highlights one series worth your attention, and they call these series essentials. This month, they recommend Wondery's Ghost Story, a seven-part series that follows journalist Tristan Redman as he tries to get to the bottom of a ghostly presence in his childhood home. His investigation takes him on a journey involving homicide detectives, ghost hunters, and even psychic mediums,

and leads him to a dark secret about his own family. Check out Ghost Story, a series essential pick, completely ad-free on Apple Podcasts. Botox Cosmetic, Adabotulinum Toxin A, FDA approved for over 20 years. So, talk to your specialist to see if Botox Cosmetic is right for you. For full prescribing information, including boxed warning, visit BotoxCosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit BotoxCosmetic.com.

That's BotoxCosmetic.com. That's BotoxCosmetic.com. On August 14th, 2021, Patricia Whelan sat down for a Zoom call with her friend Anissa Rizzulli. And as soon as I turned the camera on and I saw her face. I knew something was wrong. Patricia Whelan was a judge in Vermont for almost 20 years. She also served as an international judge on the war crimes tribunal in Sarajevo. Her friend, Anissa Rizzulli, is also a judge. She's been called the Ruth Bader Ginsburg of Afghanistan, and

she was the first woman to be nominated to the Afghan Supreme Council. And she just said to me, Patty, the Taliban are here. They're here. They're here in the city. And it's over. And at that time, all the news reports, if you remember, were all saying, oh, you know, there was time yet, nothing, you know, the Taliban would be held off for six months or, you know, it just wasn't,

the immediacy wasn't there. And, you know, I said that to her. I said, I just listened to the news and they were saying that there's still months. We have months to get ready for this. And she said, no, we don't. They're here. You must listen to me.

I was in shock, in a deep shock. This is Judge Basira Kazizadeh. Last summer, she was in shock, in a deep shock. This is Judge Basira Kazizadeh. Last summer she was in her office in Kabul when a guard came and told her to get out, that the Taliban was everywhere. I didn't know what should I do because everything happened suddenly. And one of my colleagues who was working as a clerk, he said, oh, I have a car, and I could help you to go to home. So we decided to leave our office and go home. She lived with her brother and his wife,

and she remembers that she and her colleague both cried when he dropped her off. We understand that was the last day of our work and jobs. After that moment, we will not see each other, and we thought maybe Taliban will come and kill us. There was a threat coming from the Taliban, of course, and they were searching for them. They knew this right away.

One judge said that members of the Taliban showed up at her door. She was able to escape. They trashed the house. They destroyed it. You know, they knocked through walls. They couldned the house. They destroyed it. You know, they knocked through walls. They couldn't find her, but they found her dog, and they shot her dog.

You know, that was day one. But the other threat was the Taliban released prisoners from the prisons. They opened up the gates to the prisons. When the Taliban entered Kabul, they freed all the prisoners in the main Kabul prison, Pulicharkhi. This is journalist Zahuna Kargar. She was born in Kabul, but today she lives in London, where she reports for the BBC, focusing on Afghanistan. She says that as soon as the prison in Kabul was opened, women judges began receiving telephone calls

from men they had sentenced. And they were now free, and there was no control, no watch on them. They were seeking revenge. Revenge on the judges. On the judges. I mean, this was particularly true, ironically, for family the judges. On the judges. I mean, this was particularly true, ironically, for family court judges.

Judge Whalen remembers that on the second day of the takeover, she heard from a judge who had presided over a case where a member of the Taliban had killed his wife. And she was doing the custody portion of that case, and she awarded the custody of his children to the mother's family. He now wanted those children, and the mother's family had moved and had done a very good job of somewhat covering their tracks, and he couldn't find them. And he made this assumption that the judge would know where the children were. So he came after her, and he threatened to kill her children if she didn't tell him where the children were located. That kind of threat we saw that day and every day after, and that's still going on in Afghanistan. They're terrified. I mean, they've moved. When the Taliban took over the Supreme Court,

they had access to all of the women's personnel files, so they knew where they lived and they knew who was in their family. All of women just are very worried. And I thought I want to change my house and go to some of relatives' house. But when I talked with my relatives, I saw that they are very afraid. And on that day, nobody wants to be in danger because of me. So none of your relatives would take you in? Yes, yes, exactly.

And then when I read the WhatsApp group, the all-women judges said, please hide your documents. And I had lots of documents that showed that I was a judge. I started to burn some of them, but I saw there was a lot of books and documents, so I was not able to hide all of them. They were getting calls, threats, phone calls, houses being searched,

so they were moving from one place to another place in Kabul. And they were running for their life because they felt very scared of the people who were freed from prison. Many judges reported that their bank accounts were frozen. One said she made it into the bank only to see a man she recognized from her courtroom eight months earlier, when he'd been on trial for murdering his wife. They just were running for their lives, and I remember speaking to them through WhatsApp.

Journalist Zahuna Kargar. Each one was so worried. We were so careful that I couldn't even mention their name in my telephone calls to them. Yeah, the fear that I have heard in those voices was just unforgettable, I can say. One judge said that her father called her and told her not to come home. He was worried that the sight of a woman driving a car might make the Taliban angry, and that if they pulled her over, they might search her car and discover that she was a judge. A senior judge in Afghanistan's Supreme Court described cutting open the lining of one of her dresses to hide her law degree inside. Within 24 hours, they lost everything. And we're not

just talking about their homes or possessions or cars or physical possessions that they had. They lost their own personal identity and their history and everything they worked about. They lost their ability to speak. Judge Whelan is part of a network of nearly 7,000 women judges in more than 100 countries and territories around the world. It's called the International Association of Women Judges. So we just went to work. They created a 24-7 hotline run by seven of the judges, including Judge Whelan. They created a 24-7 hotline run by seven of the judges, including Judge Whalen. They created a database where the Afghan judges could upload their visas and identification papers and any other personal documents or photographs they wanted to keep safe. And they began to call and email

everyone they could think of. Government officials, members of Congress, members of Parliament, contacts in the State Department, the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, people all over the world. And we were so naive. I think our biggest assumption at the time was that, okay, governments would help here. But, you know, our governments were nowhere to be found. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. When the Taliban took control in August of 2021, there were reports that the country's borders were not passable because there were so many checkpoints.

So the best way to evacuate was by air. But the airport was surrounded by a huge wall. Thousands and thousands of people were outside trying to get in. There are videos of the tarmac packed with people hoping to get on planes. In one video, you can see people trying to climb up the sides and hold on to a U.S. military airplane

as it moves down the runway. There were reports of violence and chaos. The Taliban were beating people. Essentially, the message was, get into the airport any way you can, but there was no helping hand. Judge Whalen says that one country that began to help the judges was Poland. Poland helped Judge Basira Kazizada evacuate. She remembers she got a call from a woman she didn't know who identified herself as Anna.

And she said, do you want to leave your country? I said, yes, I want to leave because I'm in danger. She said, if you want to leave your country, just you have two hours, please be ready. And I said, I don't need two hours, just I'm ready to leave Afghanistan right now. The woman told her to go to the airport, and that the Polish special forces would help her. Josh Kazizata says she tried, but there were so many people, she couldn't get anywhere near the entry gates.

She and her brother and sister-in-law tried to help a little boy who was so hurt he couldn't stand up. She says people were just walking on top of him. We just tried to find a little safe place for the boy, and there was a container, and we put the boys under the container and said, a little safe place for the boy, and there was a container, and we put the boys under the container and said, oh, please keep in here. It was very hard. All the time when I remind that situation,

my heart is broken. She remembers it was so loud, no one could hear anything, and people were shooting guns. It was overwhelming. She says she got sick. Then I sent a message for Mrs. Anna, that dear Mrs. Anna, thank you very much for helping, but there was a lot of huge people, and I couldn't take the gate. So I canceled my decision. I don't want to leave Afghanistan.

She sent me a message, Oh, please be brave and strong. You can. This is your last chance. Judge Kazizadeh did eventually make it through the gates and onto a plane to Poland. Judge Whalen says that the younger judges had an easier time making it through than the older ones. If you were an older woman, it was impossible to get through that sort of human gauntlet of,

you know, primarily young men stronger, pushing. It was just a free-for-all. Many people were trying to get into the airport through the Abbey Gate entrance. To get there, people walked through a sewage canal. And while the water was only up to most adults' knees, if you were a child, you had to be carried. So if a woman had more than two children, for example, they couldn't make it through the sewer.

And we're also talking about an incredible amount of time. It took more than 24 hours to make it through the sewer to a gate. That's 24 awake hours struggling, you know, with this massive amount of frantic humanity. We'll be right back. To be continued... A seven-part series that follows journalist Tristan Redman as he tries to get to the bottom of a ghostly presence in his childhood home. His investigation takes him on a journey involving homicide detectives, ghost hunters, and even psychic mediums, and leads him to a dark secret about his own family. Check out Ghost Story, a series essential pick, completely ad-free on Apple Podcasts. What software do you use at work? The answer to that question is probably more complicated than you want it to be.

The average U.S. company deploys more than 100 apps, and ideas about the work we do can be radically changed by the tools we use to do it. So what is enterprise software anyway? What is productivity software? How will AI affect both? And how are these tools changing the way we use our computers to make stuff, communicate, and plan for the future? In this three-part special series, Decoder is surveying the IT landscape presented by AWS. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts.

What happened to women judges in Afghanistan in August of 2021 had happened before, in the 90s. Journalist Zahuna Kargar was born in Kabul in 1983. My family, I come from an educated family. My father used to be a minister. This was a time during basically the communist regime, the Cold War time. The country had been invaded by the Soviet Union in 1979, and there were widespread protests. The communist regime collapsed, so the Mujahideen took over with the help of the U.S. and other countries, and civil war erupted. And during

that civil war, life became very, very difficult. So I couldn't continue my education as a girl. Insecurities were just widespread. As a child, I didn't really understand what was going on, but I knew that life is dangerous. And it was difficult. There was no electricity anymore. So my life changed completely from being a minister's daughter, going to the best school in Kabul, to not having electricity, not being able to warm our house, heat our house in the winter, because everything just went from us. The Taliban was formed in the midst of the civil war, claiming they would restore peace

and security after so much fighting, and implement their own interpretation of Islamic law, which banned women and girls from working and going to school. In 1996, they took control of Kabul, and by 1998 were in control of 90% of Afghanistan. And we were seeing the Taliban coming, and my mother and my father decided that we just cannot continue in this situation because we are five sisters. We couldn't see any future anymore. And it was dangerous for him to live in Kabul. And we escaped to Pakistan, became refugees there. During this first Taliban takeover, women in Afghanistan were forced to stop working and were not permitted outside of their houses with their faces uncovered. Unmarried men and women couldn't be seen together. And women judges, like Judge Marzia Barber-Cahayel, were in danger.

Tell me what happened in 1997. In 1997, when the Taliban came in my city, Polokhomri, they came looking for me, and they came to my house, my family house. When the Taliban took control of Afghanistan in the 90s, Judge Marzia Barbara Cahill was working as a family court judge. She'd set up a shelter for divorced women, helped women leaving abusive marriages, and taught women how to read. She says nine or ten Taliban fighters broke into her house,

with guns, looking for her. She says they destroyed the entire house. Her mother and brothers and sisters were inside and Marzia was hiding. She hid for hours. Eventually, they left and she went to check on her mother. She was very, very upset

and her face very white and depressed and she just said you know, you have to leave just leave and go and we all decided the same time to leave Pulau Khumbri

to flee to Pakistan this was a shock for all of my family. Because your mother thought they'd come back, they wouldn't stop looking for you. Oh, of course, because the Taliban told to my mother they will back and, you know... When we left Afghanistan, the people leaving Pulau Khumri,

and they know the Taliban took all our properties. The beautiful house my mother made, they took everything from our house. She continued to receive threats, even years later. After the Taliban lost power, she returned to Afghanistan. And then, one night, when she was on her way to visit her mother in the hospital, she was hit by a car. When I opened my eyes, I just saw the doctors around me. That's all I remember.

She says her legs and back were broken. And then, she says, she got a phone call. They said, how was our gift? How was our gift? Yes. And so you knew it was an assassination attempt because of that? Yes, of course. I said to my mother, please forgive me.

And my mom said, you did nothing wrong. Just go and be safe. That's all I remember. Today, she lives in the UK. When I came in this country, I came with my suitcase and my diary and some of my, you know, my paperwork, that's all. How we lost everything, all our achievements, sacrifice, and everything we did, work hard,

it is really difficult for me, for all of us, not just me. Was it different? Was there a big difference being a girl growing up in Afghanistan as opposed to a boy growing up? My family were educated people who, you know, allowed not just me, all my sisters and brothers to have their rights and be happy. When I started running the bicycle, and I asked my dad, you know, the things his wife is doing, I should do. I think that all the opportunity was given by my mother, by my dad, to me. One day Marzia was out with her father, and saw him speaking to a woman, and being very respectful to her. And I asked, who was the lady that? And he told me she's a judge. And I was no idea what is judge,

what's meaning by judge. And that was really is my thing in my life changed that day. Tell me a little bit about that. What about this judge? I think my dad was very interested in her character. She had a very strong character. And during the way we was back to home, and my dad told me about she was the first female judge in Polokhumry. Marcia decided that she wanted to be like this judge. In 1991, she began her career in Afghanistan's courts. You know, when the Taliban took over in the 90s,

when they entered Kabul, they were in these trucks that had loudspeakers on them, and they went through the streets, and they told women they had to leave their jobs and they should go home. Judge Patricia Whalen. They could no longer be out in public. But they came after the judges. Those... They specifically came for them. They came into the courthouse. They were the ones that the Taliban at that time perceived as a danger.

And I've never forgotten that. You know, these women in Afghanistan themselves are part of really a more privileged class of people just simply because they were educated. And this was in the 90s. They were highly educated. Many of them had master's degrees. They were scholars in Islamic law. And after the Taliban took over the first time, they were all removed from the bench.

The Taliban appointed their own judges. Many had no legal education or experience. Judge Whalen says some were illiterate. And after 2001, when women judges slowly began to return to the bench, they could find themselves working alongside a Taliban-appointed judge. It was common for three judges to preside as a panel over a court case. As opposed to one judge hearing the case. And the woman would be sitting there, the woman judge would be sitting there,

who had been through law faculty, had master's degrees in law in specific subjects, and they would be rendered silent by the two men sitting next to them. We'll be right back. Hey, it's Scott Galloway. And on our podcast, Pivot, we are bringing you a special series about the basics of artificial intelligence. We're answering all your questions. What should you use it for? What tools are right for you? And what privacy issues should you ultimately watch out for? And to help us out, we are joined by Kylie Robeson, the senior AI reporter for The Verge, to give you a primer on how to integrate AI into your life. So tune into AI Basics, How and When to Use AI, a special series from Pivot sponsored by AWS, wherever you get your podcasts. Are you looking to eat healthier,

but you still find yourself occasionally rebounding with junk food and empty calories? You don't need to wait for the new year to start fresh. New year, new me? How about same year, new me? You just need a different approach. According to Noom, losing weight has less to do with discipline and more to do with psychology. Noom is the weight loss management program that focuses on the science behind food cravings and building sustainable eating habits. Noom wants to help you stay

focused on what's important to you with their psychology and biology-based approach. Noom takes into account your unique biological factors, which also affect weight loss success. The program can also help you understand the science behind your eating choices and why you have those specific cravings, and it can help you build new habits for a healthier lifestyle. And since everyone's journey is different, so are your daily lessons. They're personalized to help you reach your goal. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology-based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com. After September 11, 2001,

President George W. Bush announced that the United States military had launched attacks on Taliban targets in Afghanistan, pushing the Taliban out of power. During the United States' 20-year occupation of the country, the U.S. government and NATO tried to install a Western-style democracy. An enormous amount of money was put into the court systems by Western countries. And of course, they also urged and advocated courts that were probably not organic to the Afghan legal system, such as courts to eliminate violence against women, courts that oversaw terrorism cases, courts that were specifically focused on drugs and narcotics. These were all new and people would argue imposed on the legal system. I mean, they were staffed by women who were willing to make this presence accepted in the society. In a male-dominated society, they made their presence accepted. Journalist Zahuna Kargar.

Even one of the women judges was telling me, like, at the beginning, when she started working as a judge, she said like if the people came to her in courtrooms, she wouldn't get enough respect because they felt, people felt, normal, ordinary people of the society felt that, oh, a woman cannot make judgment or not a good judgment or not the same judgment as a man can make. But she said by working every day, by making judgments that we felt that we were giving justice to people, to the victims, she said like day by day, the attitude was changing. Day by day, the presence of women were felt that this is exactly, it doesn't matter if you're a female judge or a male judge. What matters is that you're able to serve justice. And she said people were finally seeing it. But it was still dangerous. Judge Basira Kazizadeh says she received threats all the time, sometimes by mail and sometimes in person. She says one day after she made a decision, a man appeared outside of her office and said he was going to kill her. I said, I will catch your head. And I am a member of Taliban. I said,

that was my decision. If you are not agree with that, you could appealing for that. But you don't have right to treat me. This is my office and i am a judge and that was our decision and you this is your right to appeal but you don't have right to treat me so i went to the room courts and i shared this matter with the chief of the courts and said i do not care about this man, but I know because I am a judge one day, they will kill me like they kill other women judges. But at least I want to save this record in the courts. If some days happen with me, at least my family knows what was the matter. I mean, they would go to court and never know if they would come home that night.

And I saw that even in 2007 at a relatively safe time to be in Afghanistan, that that was true then. Two of our judges were assassinated. One of those judges was a friend of mine, Judge Zakiya Harari, and she had come and stayed in Vermont and was part of a judicial education program that I was running at the time. And she was just a wonderful, you know, sweet person. And on, you know, her and another judge, another woman judge, were both assassinated, you know, on their way to work right outside their courthouse. I knew then that things had really changed. The Taliban was regaining its power. In February of 2020,

the Trump administration signed an agreement with the Taliban. All U.S. forces would be out by May 1, 2021. President Biden extended the deadline, All U.S. forces would be out by May 1, 2021. President Biden extended the deadline, agreeing to remove troops by the end of August. And on August 15, the Taliban entered the capital, opened the prisons, and the women judges in the country knew they had to leave. So seven of you are running a 24-7 hour hotline. That's right.

And you've accomplished, you've gotten hundreds of women out at this point. Of the 270 judges that were in Afghanistan, 250 of them asked to be evacuated. Of that 250, we have gotten out 185 women judges. But we also made a commitment to get their families out. I mean, I think as women, it just made no sense to us to have what they call the principal come out, we assumed they would come out with their families. And so we did that. And that's over 1,000 people altogether so far. We have 65 judges left in Afghanistan and their families. And we will get them out.

Judge Whelan says that since the Taliban takeover, judges have been evacuated to the United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, Greece, the UK, Poland, Korea, Romania, Germany, Ireland, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Iceland, and the U.S. But she says it's a much smaller list of countries that are open to allowing the judges to stay long-term. What are you hearing now? The situation is much worse. And some of that is just what's, you know, winter is coming. The economic crisis in Afghanistan is, you know, beyond critical.

People are struggling for food and basic necessities. The women who probably at one time had access to resources don't anymore. And I would say everybody in Afghanistan is struggling. The judges, they fought for justice. They fought for justice. They fought for justice. Judge Marzia Barbara Cahill. They fought for justice. They fought for humanity. They fought to bring a balance of law in the court. But suddenly they became the more vulnerable people. What is this?

In this world, I don't know where is the justice. You know, one of the things I'd want to say is that Germany has recently opened its doors and the U.S. has also finally agreed for our judges, you know, that they have a path forward and hopefully can come into the U.S. But by and large, doors were shut completely to Afghans. And, you know, we're able to focus on these women because they're our colleagues, but standing behind them are the vast majority of women and children of Afghanistan that have absolutely no future. I just don't know how we can not see that. And I'm afraid that it's fading from, you know,

the minds of not just in the U.S., but in the world. And I just hope we could do better. Two weeks ago, on December 24th, the Taliban government banned women from working for local or international humanitarian aid organizations in the country. According to one U.N. survey, many aid organizations in the country. According to one UN survey, many aid organizations, including Save the Children, have had to shut down their operations. A few days before that,

the government banned women from attending college. They were already prohibited from attending middle and high school. Currently, the highest level of education available to Afghan girls is sixth grade. Judge Qasizadeh's sisters and nieces are still in Afghanistan. My sister said she was very disappointed and said, I don't know this situation will continue for how long, but what should I do with my children? They need to be educated.

And I said, for now, it's very important to be just alive. What do you think would happen if you went back to Afghanistan now? It is clear if I want to go back to Afghanistan, it is clear that I cannot live in there. They didn't allow me to live. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Our technical director is Rob Byers. Engineering by Russ Henry. Special thanks to Carol Jackson and Jeffrey Stern. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal.

You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. If you like the show, tell a friend or leave us a review. It means a lot. We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show and Instagram at criminal underscore podcast. Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. The number one selling product of its kind with over 20 years of research and innovation. Botox Cosmetic, Adabotulinum Toxin A, is a prescription medicine used to temporarily make moderate to severe frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better in adults. Effects of Botox Cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.

Don't receive Botox Cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow and eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Tell your doctor about medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis, or Lambert-Eaton syndrome in medications, including botulinum

toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. For full safety information, visit BotoxCosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. See for yourself at BotoxCosmetic.com. Support for this podcast comes from Stripe. Stripe is a payments and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups

and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast-track growth, like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription-based charges, invoicing, and all recurring revenue management needs. You can learn how Stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at Stripe.com.

That's Stripe.com to learn more. Stripe. Make progress.