Criminology - Charles Horvath

Episode Date: September 15, 2018

Charles Horvath went missing in 1989 while backpacking across Canada. His mother, Denise Horvath-Allan, has been searching for him for 29 years. You can support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app, when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill, too? All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast experts set up on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised.

I'd like to welcome everyone to our second special bonus episode of criminology. Now, in addition to working on these special episodes, we've been hard at work on season four, which premieres on September 29. And we think that you're really going to like what we have planned for you for season 4 and we will reveal what the theme of season 4 is at the end of this episode. In this episode, we're going to focus on the missing persons case of Charles Horvath. Charles went missing while backpacking across Canada in 1989. But we're also going to focus on his mother's incredible Odyssey to search for her missing

son. We have a great interview with her during this episode. Yeah, and this is an interview that you definitely don't want to miss. But first, we need to give our shoutouts for our Patreon members. Cassie Roberts jumped out at our highest level. Thrash Metal Show, which is a huge supporter of the show Morp, jumped back up to our highest level. We had Jeanette Butler Fergie, Jim Butcher, Charlene Freethy, and Aidan Weeks. So a big shout out to all of our new supporters and a huge shout-out.

and a huge shout out to all of you that continue to support us month after month. It really means a lot. Goes a long way towards helping us produce this content. And many of the names that you just mentioned, Mike, are names that we've mentioned before and they're very supportive. I see them on social media all the time, and it's just really awesome to see that we have loyal fans like that and listeners. And also the new people that just join to help us out,

we can't say thanks enough. Yeah, there's no doubt more. If it would be hard for you and I to continue to do this work without the support of our Patreon members. But now, let's dive into this episode. Charles Horvath was born in Ontario, Canada on August 21st, 1968 to Max and Denise Horvath. But as an infant, he moved to Yorkshire in the United Kingdom with his mother and would be raised over. there. His mother, Denise, was 19 years old when she gave birth to Charles and divorced his father, Max, not long after. She remarried and Charles became a British citizen, which gave him

dual citizenship. Charles and his mother, Denise, were very close, and his disappearance would change her life forever. He was 20 years old when he disappeared. He was six feet tall, weighed about 175 pounds, had dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. He had a tattoo on his upper left arm of a skull with mohair. In September of 1988, Charles traveled to Canada to visit his father in Ontario. His plan was to backpack his way east to west across Canada and see more of the country in which he was born. This was going to be a major undertaking. the trip would take many months and cover many thousands of miles.

Before he disappeared, he made plans with his mother, Denise, and his stepfather for them to all fly to Hong Kong together to celebrate their birthdays, which were only four days apart in August. Charles was going to be 21, and Denise would be 40. But sadly, this is a trip that the pair would never make. Charles had been to Canada many times over the years to visit his father, Max, and his godfurt. father Gabby. Max lived in Thunder Bay while Gabby lived in Kokenauer, both near Ontario. Charles visited with them on his trip westward across Canada. And during this time, Charles was calling his mother, he was sending postcards to his mother to stay in touch. The niece had flown to Montreal to visit

with Charles in December of 1988 to watch his appearance in a fashion show. This would be the last she would see him. The last time that she heard from Charles by phone was April 17th of 1989. He called her from Banff, where he was staying and working at the time. The last time Denise received any communication from Charles was May 11th, when he faxed her from the town of Colonna about their upcoming trip. But when Charles didn't follow up the fax with the phone call as he had promised, Denise knew something was terribly wrong. Denise waited for that call to come, but it never did. She called the police informally a few weeks after the last time she heard from Charles.

She was worried about her son. She would say years later that I felt a bit stupid for calling. He was a tall, proud young man, and he certainly didn't need mom to change his diapers. But something set panic in my body, and I've been in the state of panic ever since. The RCMP assured Denise that he would turn up, but that didn't happen. She called several more times, but was told similar things. Denise would be vocal over the years about her feelings towards the RCMP and how they refused to take her concerns about her son seriously.

Denise called the Kelowna RCMP on August 10, 1989, to officially report her son missing. She made her first trip to Canada to look for her son Charles. She attempted to retrace her son's steps and began handing out pictures to local residents and asking them if any of them had seen Charles. And she also posted and handed out flyers seeking information. After the fashion show in December of 1988, Charles worked in Quebec for a while. Then he made his way west to Ontario where he visited with his dad, his godfather, and his half-brother. The authorities learned that Charles had been in Saskatchewan in March. In April of 1989, Charles was working at the Rim Rock Hotel in Banff, Alberta, which is west of Calgary.

This is the place from which he made the last phone call to his mother. From there, he continued to make his way west until he reached the town of Colona, British Columbia, in early May. Colonna is northeast of Vancouver, but actually closer to the Washington state line. In Colonna, Charles got a job at the Flintstone's Bedrock City Amusement Park. He registered at the tiny town tent and trailer park on May 17, 1989, where he wound up living in a tent. This place was situated in a rough part of town. It was while Charles was staying there that he sent the last community. to his mother via facts about their upcoming trip to Asia.

Charles was last seen on May 26th. He worked that morning at the Flintstone's Bedrock City and then was seen in Tiny Town later that day. It's also been reported that he was seen cashing a check that day at the Orchard Park Royal Bank. But either way, he vanished after that date, and there's been no confirmed sighting of him since. He left behind all of his personal items in his tent. These were things that he would have never willingly left behind, not just his clothes and sleeping bag, but ID and family photographs. Denise called the Colonial Police for a year from the UK. In June 1990, she made the decision to make another trip to Canada to look for her son.

When she visited Tiny Town, the manager gave her three items that belonged to Charles, a rosary, a Bible, and a leather strap from his boot. The manager said that everything else had been earlier thrown away. It would be determined that some of Charles' things had been taken by other residents of the campsite. Police would find clothing that belonged to Charles and a shaving bag in the possession of a resident. A few years later, Denise went back to Canada. In March of 1992, she received an unsigned letter at her hotel room in Colonna. The letter said, I seen you add in the paper looking for your son.

I seen him in tiny tent town May 26th. We were partying and two people knocked him out, but he died. His body is in the lake by the bridge. Now initially, the RCMP didn't think the note was enough evidence to spend the money and manpower on exploring the lake. So a team of volunteer divers and an underwater sub jumped into action with the help of the Canadian search center for missing children. But they didn't turn up anything. Then just a few weeks later, a second anonymous note was delivered by taxi to the hotel where Denise was staying.

This note said that the divers were looking in the wrong place and they needed to search the other side of the bridge. RCMP divers were called into action this time and they did find human remains. This happened on a Friday and the identification of the body would not be made until Monday. Denise Horvath-Allen spent that entire weekend in the hospital due to the tremendous amount of stress of waiting to find out if they had found her son. The remains turned out to be a 64-year-old Kelowna man that had been missed. for seven years and who the police believe committed suicide. During this trip to Canada in 1992, Denise was provided with approximately 40 photographs that had been taken at the campsite. She handed them over to police in the hopes that they

may be able to use them to help in their investigation. But as with many things in this case, nothing materialized. A man named Gino Borden stated that he had seen Charles before he disappeared. Borden said he was a nice guy. He was a good friend. He used to always come over to our camp, little camp, and have coffee in the morning and play frisbee and catch with my son, and just sit and chat with us. He was a friend, a real friendly guy, probably too friendly. He seemed, I don't know, naive. He'd talk to anybody, make friends with anybody. Denise's ongoing search for her son left her and her husband in financial ruin. At the time that Charles went missing, Denise owned a successful beauty salon, which she closed down to search for her son. She spent money on flights and hotels for herself

and her husband, Stuart Allen. She spent money placing advertisements and newspapers across Canada and printing posters to put up anywhere she could. The couple even mortgaged their home to finance the search for Charles. After returning home from their second trip to Canada, Denise and Stewart had spent $20,000 on the search. In all, Denise has made 15 trips to Canada to date, searching for her son Charles. Charles was very close with his grandmother, who he called Nana.

His grandmother, Edith Thorpe, had prepared a personal plea to the public about Charles, but sadly she died in early January 2006 before she could give it. The Hortbath-Allen family, released her emotional plea to the public after her death. And it read, In September 1988,

my grandson Charles came to visit me in Cambridge, England, before setting off on his long journey to Canada. As we waved goodbye to one another at the bus stop, I feared that I would never see my grandson again. The tears poured from my eyes. Another Christmas has come and gone without our family, knowing the fate of my only grandson Charles. Soon I shall be 80 years old.

If you know who took Charles from our lives, or if you know where his body is located, please find the courage to come forward. For 16 years, I have helplessly watched the health of my daughter, Denise Allen, deteriorate as she drags herself across Canada and the world in hopes of finding the fate of her only child. Whomever took Charles from our lives, I beg you to come forward and tell us where we can find him. Peace desperately needs to be brought to our lives.

They prepared a place for Charles to be laid to rest with his nana as soon as his remains are recovered. And they even put a memorial headstone on his grave during the service for his grandmother, Edith Thorpe. There have been a lot of rumors and speculation about what happened. into Charles Horvath. There are people that believe he was murdered at the tiny town trailer park and that his body was dumped in Okanagan Lake. But there are also people that believe he disappeared on his own and set about living off the grid. Much of the idea that Charles left on his own came from some reporting that Charles had allegedly told people that this was something that he was thinking about doing. But not his mother, Denise. She has said no way Charles would never have

done something like that to me. There are reports that a woman who met Charles during his travels in Canada claims she saw him in July of 1989 and then again in August at a nightclub three months after he disappeared. This is a woman who contacted Denise after seeing one of her posters and said she had met Charles in Colonna and even allowed him to stay in her house for a time. She has been quoted as saying when I first met Charles, it was this charming, good-looking guy who was obviously new to Canada. And I really liked him. I thought, well, here's a unique person. He loved his family.

He showed me pictures. He was so proud of all these photographs of his mother. They were very close. It was obviously they were close. In 2003, Crime Stoppers in Canada televised the following. Time Stoppers is a public service of the Okanagan's very own CHBC. Do you know this man? He may be connected with an unsolved disappearance in Colonna, dating back to 1989.

You may remember the Charles Horvath case. Charles was a British national hitchhiking across Canada in the spring of 1989. In May of that year, he got a job at an amusement park in Colonna, Flintstone's Bedrock City. And on the last day he was seen alive, May 26, 1989, he worked the morning at Flintstones and was seen later that day at the tiny town campground. Charles Horvath has not been seen since. His mother, Denise Allen, reported her son missing in November of 1989. She made numerous visits to Colonna from her home in England searching for her son.

Denise Allen and the RCMP now believe that Charles Horvath died in the late spring of 1989, but his remains have never been found. An anonymous tipster says this man, known, only as Bill knew Charles Horvath and was seen in his company. Bill is described as five feet ten to six feet tall, slim, with a dark tan, graying hair, charming, well-spoken, and with, quote, riveting blue eyes. He'd be in his 60s now. If you know the identity of Bill or the whereabouts of a man matching his description, called crime stoppers. Most likely Charles Horvath died in the late hours of May 26th or the early morning hours of May 27th, 19.

was it a result of foul play, suicide, or mishap? Crime Stoppers pays cash rewards for the information leading to the conviction of the person or persons responsible for unsolved crime. If you can help us, bring this case to a successful conclusion. Call Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-2-2-2-2-7. That's 1-800-27. And remember, you don't have to give your name. In this segment, you hear them talking about a person of interest named Bill. Now, I know you can't see the picture of Bill, but you can find it out on YouTube.

The problem morph is, you know, in the research, there's really not much out there about Bill. To go into detail about, you know, how he hit their radar, how he became a person of interest. I just couldn't find it. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman family family. to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed

investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020, blood and water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. In 2010, the serious crime unit of the RCMP, listed Charles Horvath as deceased. But now it's time to hear from Denise Horvath Allen herself. We've kept our part short for this episode because who better to talk about some of the details and the pain that she's gone through than Denise herself.

Denise talks about the fact that there has been a person she has suspected from the beginning. She also discusses details of the search and the possibility that Charles chose to disappear on his own. So with us today is Denise Horvath Allen, and she is here to talk about the case of her missing son, Charles. Denise, thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Your son's case was featured on season six of Unsolved Mysteries way back in 1993. What was it? 12th of January 1994

1994 okay and like many people I first heard about you know your son's case by watching that show and I remember thinking how sad it was that you had to make these trips from the UK to Canada

to search for your son in a country that wasn't your own then only this year I spotted you on Facebook and I was shocked and sad to see that all these years later you were still searching for him and, you know, it sort of caught my attention that after all these years, he hasn't been found. How have you been able to do that all these years physically, mentally, financially,

to journey back and forth and look for him the way you have? It's been extremely difficult. Financially draining, physically, unbearable, along long journeys. It's been grueling. And how, I was going to say, how often do you make? these trips to go back there and search? There hasn't been a specific time frame I say every other year I've been around 15 times overall but one year I may have gone only once another year I was there three times and then I wasn't able to go

for five years because of you know finances it's two years since I've been three actually and I'm going again shortly which was likely to be my last time. When you go there, do you have a team of people that are helping you, or are you doing this all on your own? I have friends that I've made over there over the years, but because of being such a long time, you know, people have their own lives to attend to in 29 years. You know, a lot happens.

I'm still in touch with some of Charles's friends that he made there, who I became friends with. And I try and see some of them when I'm there. But St. Paul's United Church have always been there to support me. But basically, I'm on my own there. What are some of the challenges you face being that it's a totally different country than where you reside? What things have you run into? Communication costs, travel difficulties for the last several trips. I couldn't afford to rent a car.

So I've walked most everywhere downtown and relied on people to give me lifts, which is very hard. And the time I have available in Colonna, you know, the hours are precious. So not having my own transport has been incredibly difficult. As a parent, I can't doubt or second-guess your desire to find your son, no matter how long it takes, so I totally understand that. That's sort of turned you into a detective, you know, yourself, an amateur detective going out and talking to people and asking questions and trying to figure out what's fact and what's fiction.

Was that a learning experience for you having to do all that? What's that been like for you? Tough. In the early years, I found a lot of information, which was passed on to the RCMP. they were quite surprised at the amount of information I'd attained. It's been hard. I've been to places that one would never imagine a mother would go to. And I've had to just be very brave and just no matter how frightened I was, just do it.

For example, I was at the home of the prime suspect on my last trip. I'll beg upon the trip before. I was at the home of a person of interest. I had to knock on their door all on my own. Obviously, I couldn't have anyone there to support me because it's a small town and it couldn't risk my friends being identified. So I had to be dropped off in a car

without a functioning cell phone and left there to whatever happened. It was daunting. But I shall do the same again when I go back. I have to find the adrenaline. And for Charles, I'm tired and jet lagged and the heat, which are all obstacles. I'm determined they're not going to win. And you mentioned a suspect that you have.

Have you come to the conclusion that there may have been foul play in the case? Oh yes. For 29 years, 28 years, it's... been, for 28 years, we've suspected one person. And do you think this was a crime of passion, of robbery, of jealousy? What do you think may have, you know, if your son was harmed of this person, what do you think caused the issue? It may have been down some part to jealousy because Charles was very different.

You know, he didn't fit in in the campus. site where he was staying. He was clean shaven, short hair cut, you know, pretty smartly dressed. And he was a bit of a braggard. He used to boast about a family in England and, you know, he was a dreamer. So, and it was quite a chatterbox. So they may have resented, you know, the security that he had at home, which they sadly perhaps didn't. and this was a rough camp area that he went to the people that were there were typically rough people it was a very seedy and still is a very seedy campsite and the when on my first trip with my mother

I established he'd been camping there we were only in the town one and a half days when I found this out and ironically we were staying in the motel across the street from the camp the site, despite the fact we never knew when we left England that he'd been camping there. And when I went across to the site, the first person I met was very nervous and uncomfortable. He kept saying, I'd have to wait for the manager to come back. And he kept reiterating this. So we had to sit in the baking heat to wait for the manager to come back. When he came back, he said that he remembered Charles.

and he went to the orange storage shed and brought out three tiny items a leather strap off his boot a tiny red paper Bible and a rosary that his godfather had given him I was mortified and I said is this all that's left on my son

and it was they said that they disposed of his tent sleeping bag backpack another item in the spring. At that point, the first person I'd met didn't admit he had any of Charles' belongings. With this information, I passed it on to the RCMP

who went into town and into tiny town the next day. The sirens blaring. We could hear them from the motel room. And then I received a phone call from Constable Norman Blaney to say that, please come downtown. it doesn't look good. Absolutely horrified. I thought they'd found his body.

We didn't know where downtown headquarters were. We had to find a way in the heat. When we arrived there, I left my mother in the foyer because I didn't want her to hear what he had to say to me. And I was asked to sign a statement, identify Charles' clothes. It was quite traumatic. This officer, in all sincerity, said to me,

it is the belief of this detachment that your son is dead. We may never find his body or what happened to him. I was absolutely dismayed at this comment. And I said, how can you say this? I've been begging for a year for you to look for my son that something is wrong. And he just said that you do not know how evil they are at the campsite. And did this officer have any kind of information or evidence or was that just his own theory? Was there something that was making him tell you that?

He was a cloner resident, a street police officer, very conscientious one, and he knew the caliber of people he was dealing with. And that's how you became to be suspicious of the people at the campsite? Well, I was suspicious already when I met them. Why would they have kept his belongings? The manager's girlfriend stole two of Charles's expensive sweaters. The first man I met, he didn't admit to having Charles' belongings. The police retrieved two shirts from him and his shaving bag. He kept all his private papers and photographs and bits in there.

The three of them were aware of what was in the shaving bag. and one of them believed there was a passport and they were quite happy to dispose of all these items instead of calling the police if they called the police to say that they'd been left after three months they would have been entitled to them instead of, you know, stealing them. What young woman would want, you know,

a young man's smelly clothing? You know, you've got to be a bit desperate to steal you know a camp member's clothing and to dispose of all the things you know it would have been just so simple to call the police and say you know this backpacker from Europe you know it has not come back and all his belongings are here including his ID and his papers etc

just not an ounce of concern they were just happy to take whatever was worth taking and just throw the rest in the garbage. If you can, Denise, take us back to the beginning. You know, this isn't a case where Charles vanished without anybody seeing him. There were people that saw Charles and talked with him around the time that he disappeared. In fact, I think I remember that he even had made a couple friends. And they provided some clues, but did any of these tips from the beginning?

Did they lead to anything promising? Not to finding out the truth of what happened. They helped give me a timeline of his time in Colonna. We built up a schedule of where he'd stayed and where he'd worked and who had befriended. There were employers who contacted me, friends he'd made, families he'd help move house, Taxi driver had given him a ride whom he helped move house, and the people who were moving in, he helped them, and they let him stay in the summer house for a couple of nights, and just generally build up what he was, his movements there and what he was up to. He was in and out of the student job employment agencies, the agricultural employment agency and the government in agencies, you know, seeking work daily. he'd gone to work with some guys from the campsite doing sandbagging at the golf club.

I'm still in touch with one of those people. He was a single parent at the campsite. Charles had befriended his little boy who was four and played Frisbee with him. And they went collecting bottles together the night of the party to get some small change. and it was this little boys photographs that gave us the pictures that we have of the party and the bikers at tiny town campsite. The bikers had come in from America, 75 of them, and they'd stayed over at the campsite on route to the Falklands Stampede

and they came into party. In England, we didn't, we don't understand that terminology. to party. In England it's quite an innocent terminology, but out there when they party, they really mean it. Was Charles there for a long term? Was he just passing through? Did he intend to stay there for a while? He travelled from Quebec across Canada, heading towards Vancouver. but this is our year-long plan. We'd been discussing where we would rendezvous for his 21st birthday. At one point in England he said,

Mum, will he come to Canada? Sure I will, but not really looking forward to that because of the expense. But it was a long way away, so, you know, anything to, you know, appease him. when I met with him in Montreal and I went to see him in a fashion show at Christmas 88 we discussed again about his birthday and by that point he'd

he'd been there a couple of months he decided he was going to come home and we'd go out in London for him to celebrate his 21st birthday as the months passed and he travels took him across Canada in our last conversation April when he was working at the Banff Springs, I'm sorry,

when he was working at the Rimrock Hotel in Banff, he called Collect as usual. And we discussed then about the possibility of meeting up in Hong Kong where I'd gone to school for some years and was looking forward to sharing some of the memories with him. I told him to find out how much a ticket was, etc., and get back to me. By the time he left his job in Banff.

It was the 3rd of May. He travelled to Colonna by some Greyhound. I spent the first night in City Park. After that, he got three nights accommodation at the Gospel Mission. And then I found a friend who took him home as she'd travelled through Europe and knew what it was like to need a place to stay and her family, they let him stay a couple of nights

at their home and the mother dropped him off at a venue where he was working fitting carpets and he kept in touch with that family for the whole time he was in Colonna. We know most of his movements when he in May during May in Colonna and was it a sudden that he just dropped out of contact with you was it a sudden thing was that typical of him or that was very untypical no it was sudden

um I received the last letter from him on the 11th of May which he sent by fax from roast stationers telling me how much the flight would be from vancouver to hong about his job prospects asking about the cats his nana, you know, a full-page letter. Mom, he sent me the home fax number. So everything was, you know, fine in his letter. And then that was it. And I was waiting for a phone call, you know, to enable me to book the tickets. The phone call never came.

So up until when he disappeared, everything seemed normal. He was communicating. and then he just suddenly stopped. Yes. He'd send a card. Thank you, cards, little notes in the mail. He'd phone up whenever if he was at a landline and I'd call him back. And of course the last call he phone collect, which I had a thrombosis

because it was so expensive in those days. And I said, give me the number. I call you back. I don't know. He's twittering. He always chatted for 20 minutes. And I was in the middle of doing a facial and a client, which wasn't ideal when the phone call came in. But he said he'd applied for welfare until he got his paycheck and he'd got accommodation.

He was always concerned that we knew he was safe and secure. And he needed approval or disapproval. And if he needed help, he would ask for it. One of the things that keeps coming up in this case, you know, they showed it on the Unsolved Mysteries episode, and I know there were other reports, was that there was a river close to where he disappeared, and there were rumors that he may have been in that river or somebody had thrown him in there. What were able to find out about some of those claims? On my second check across the world to Canada, I focused my time in Colona. the first trip we'd covered the whole of the country where Charles had been. And shortly after arriving in Colona, I received an anonymous letter to say they'd seen my ads in the paper

and that they'd seen Charles partying at Tiny Town. Two people knocked him out, but he died. His body's in the lake by the bridge. The lake, Okanagan Lake is one of the coldest and deepest in the world. It's 98 miles wide. So that's a big lake or a big area of water that he could, you know, anybody could disappear in. Yeah, and the campsite's right on the lake shore, you know, the short walk from the campsite to the beach. volunteer divers got involved

the police weren't interested and for three days they went into the lake underneath the floating bridge a second anonymous letter was delivered by taxi to say that they're searching on the wrong side of the bridge they moved the team

Vancouver volunteer team of International Sea Search, who rented a submersible camera from the US at a cost of $1,000 a day, moved to the other side. And on the sixth day of the search, they located a body. The lake was searched for six days, the first three by the Colonna Volunteer Divers, and the following three, International Sea Search. On the fifth day of the search, the Colonna RCP

elected to get involved and their divers joined my team and went in to the lake. On the sixth day, 1014, when the body was found, they weren't present. My team had been on the lake since 6th and sunrise.

They contacted the RCP it took them three minutes to get to the lakeside. They arrived at 10-17. Their divers went into the lake. The body was quite deep. And they bagged and recovered it and brought it to the surface around noon. While all this was going on,

I had no knowledge. I was asked by my team if I would stay away from the lakeside because I've been there all the time watching. They said it was hard. for them looking for Charles. And if I wouldn't mind, would I stay home? So I was at my motel just waiting.

And when they found that body, and you found out that there was a body found, were you immediately fearful that that was Charles? Well, I didn't find out until around 2.30 in the afternoon when the police screeched up to my motel room in panic, saying a body had been found. By this time, I was quite disenchanted with all that was going on.

I'm very frightened. I was packing up to go to Vancouver to the British consulate. And I basically just, I can't define how I felt towards them. And they ran into my room and the young officer's eyes, total panic. You know, he thought it was Charles. And they came and they told me what the body, the clothing the body had on. And I said, this is three years after I've lost him, three years of begging, pleading for help to find my child. I told them that the clothing that the body had on is likely my grandfather would wear, not my son.

I could describe what my son would likely have on. But the coincidence was, you know, horrific. I went into the bathroom to cry and, you know, I have a bit of privacy. And there was no female officer with them. And, you know, I just couldn't believe it was Charles. And when I came out, within minutes, an ambulance was outside. And I was carted away to the hospital. I agreed to go because by this time I was quite frightened

and my bedroom door was to the street, being a motel and I'd only had three hours sleep a night for seven weeks I was desperate for sleep I'd live in the time I was there I was too afraid to sleep in my own room and they wouldn't allow me to get my toiletries

or dressing down anything that I would need in the hospital I was whisking to the ambulance strapped in being shouted at and I said to the ambulance people, I'm not deaf. And I was asking where the manageress was, who'd be her and husband and very kind to me. And, you know, I was just taken there,

left on a trolley in the, you know, the emergency area, informally dressed, had gone to sleep. And then the manageress and a friend arrived with my nightwear. in toiletries and I was walking up and the nurse said would I like to go upstairs should the hospital run strike downstairs and if I wanted to go upstairs it would be much quieter up there not wishing to be a nuisance I agreed totally unaware that I just admitted a voluntary agreed to go in the psychiatric unit which was a shock

You were treated almost as if you were sick. Yes. At risk. I did nothing untoward in the motel room. I didn't go to get a carving knife or anything that would indicate I would do something to endanger my life. I just cried, which I thought was quite normal of any parent. Yeah, absolutely. And I was mortified that I was in the psychiatric unit.

Three psychiatric nurses tried to persuade me to speak to psychiatrist. And I said, I don't need to. I have a broken heart, not a broken mind. I need to go to sleep. I've been searching for Charles for three years. If it was him that had been found, what was the big deal? He hadn't been killed that afternoon in a car accident. And there was nothing we could do until it was identified.

And, you know, I was so sleep deprived. I could barely function. Plus, I was all alone. My husband was in England, and, you know, arrangements were made for him to fly out instantly and preparations, et cetera. I even asked him to bring us a, not a psychologist, one who identifies bodies. Like an anthropologist? Yes. With him, because I wanted to make sure the body was bringing back to.

England belonged to me. You know, the events were so unreal. And as it happened, I was admitted on Friday. I was there for three nights. I was allowed to go out with one of Charles's friends to their house to have supper and do my laundry. And at that point, I realized that I was voluntary in a psychiatric unit. And if I wasn't back by six o'clock, they could section me, which was very frightening. When they loaded me in the ambulance, they took my cell phone off me and returned it to the rental company.

I was in the unit without any means of contacting my husband. You need $7 in coins in those days to use the pay phone. And, you know, the times that it's to call England, it was like three in the morning. It was very, very difficult. So it was daunting being,

in there. On the, I was there Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night. 20 past 11 on Sunday night, the Colonna coroner came to see me to attain information to complete a death certificate for a body they didn't do to whom it belonged. When I asked him if Charles had been identified, they said no, but they were sure it was Charles. I asked him where the body was. I debated how I would deal with viewing the body if he was ever found and I was aware of friends in England who'd viewed their daughter with a sheet over the body because they were only permitted to see her once before burial and I didn't want to see

a decomposed body. But, you know, I said to him, I know my son's physique. I watched him grow for 20 years. And it transpires. The body's in the morgue in a sealed container. Downstairs from where I'm upstairs. That was horrible.

I said to the coroner, it's immoral. You cannot do a death certificate for a body. You don't know to whom it belongs. but was sure it's Charles. In the end, he coerced me to give him the information after which I was quite upset

because I'd given my child up for dead before we knew he was dead. They suspected this was Charles and they essentially just closed it out as being Charles. Yes. Was there anything that overruled that, were they able to find out that it actually wasn't Charles? Well, I made sure

on the Monday morning that I was allowed to go home back to the motel and the body had gone to Vancouver very early Monday morning for identification. No priority was set on the Friday to ID it. They could have sent it to Vancouver on Friday. However, it went on Monday and the coroner came to my motel with a press release at 5.25 p.m. stating it's not the body of Carol John Horvart. it was in fact the remains of an older gentleman who had apparently committed suicide. The identification of the body was made about a week later. On one hand, you're relieved that it's not Charles, but on the other hand, now you still don't know what happened and you've got to keep searching.

It was a nightmare, yes. hoping and praying it was all over and then in disbelief we're back to square one one of the horrific parts of all this was that the world's press printed that my search was over

and we pulled his body from the lake my grandmother was still alive then and my mother and they all read this in the national newspapers I couldn't say to them You know, yes, Charles is dead, but this isn't him. And of course, by the time it was established that the body wasn't Charles, the papers don't print, you know, in such volume that it's the wrong body.

So many people thought he had been found. Posters in Colonna were taken down because they'd all thought he'd been found. So at that point, I'd paid $15 per poster. You know, all those years ago, I wasn't Ophay with how to print posters. It's not like nowadays it's so easy. You know, my first were handmade and printed at the photocopi shop, laminated by myself. So we had to start again with the expense, you know, and the difficulty in the heat of asking the stores and people to display the poster.

So it's not easy. You talked a little bit earlier about thinking that there may be failed play in this case and that he may have been harmed by somebody. Let me ask you a different possibility. What if, you know, is there any way that he may have voluntarily gone missing himself? Very unlikely. Charles, as I said earlier, needed approval or disapproval. and if he needed help he wasn't shy

you know asking he was always concerned tell me Nana not to worry I've got a job somewhere to live he was very conscientious about that we didn't worry about him if he if he'd

chosen to go to to disappear on his own then it would have been quite easy for him to do that but he didn't have to let the family know the town he was living in and check out the price of his ticket, etc. He could have done that at any point across Canada when we didn't know where he was. It wasn't his character, but one never knows what another person truly thinks. You only think you know your family.

Is it true that he told somebody that he was thinking about leaving his life? Well, the only person that the police chose to speak to about Charles and a family relationship was my ex-sister-in-law and her children, whom I'd only met three times in our lifetime. At first, I thought she was a kind person, but over the years, it seems that she was quite bitter and resentful. and I wasn't her favourite person because I'd left her brother. She'd done a lot to try and poison Charles' mind against us. I established this when I was there, Christmas 88 in Montreal, when I went to see him in the fashion show, and he was very afraid of her.

I was helping him tidy his room and buy things that he needed, coat hangers, you know, mattress covers, laundry bags, essentials. And he said, Mummy, don't tidy up anymore. She'll know you've been doing it. Don't tidy up. Why on earth would he be frightened of that? And it transpires that after the body was found, I understood that the government had told Colonna, RCP, to get the matter sorted. No, I wasn't their favourite person.

and they chose to ring my ex-sister-in-law and she gave the spiel whatever she did, damning me. They also spoke to her daughter, who she'd poisoned against me for 20 years. And as I later found out, she'd done the same to her son. I'd only met these children twice in 25 years so I'd always sent Christmas cards

and you know been civil towards the family I'd allowed Charles to go visit his father for vacation I'd paid for the tickets he'd visit his grandmother and relatives in Montreal so they never once sent a Christmas card

they never once sent him a birthday card in all the years but she was capable of reiterating what Charles purportedly said we all say things in the heat of the moment and bravado and an example of

you know Charles is not going to say he needs his mum you know 20 year olds don't do that do they you know as a young man and because she was so forceful things may have been said and blown out of proportion. I find it quite unforgivable of her actions because 45 million viewers, I believe, watched and sold mysteries and the homicide officer who repeated what they purported to have said is no longer a serving officer. He was under an investigation for a very serious matter.

And he was retired from the force. I didn't have a good rapport with him. And what he said on Unsold Mysteries, he wouldn't have been allowed to say that in court because it's hearsay. And it was so damaging to the search for Charles. If you found out that Charles was out there, he was alive someplace and he had gone willingly and changed it, you know, started a new life.

Would that be more difficult for you to accept than, you know, that he had met with foul play or had an accident? Would it be worse that he had voluntarily left? Oh, God, no, he'd be alive. It would be tough to deal with. Obviously, after all this time, tall men and not knowing what happened to him, to him, but he'd be alive. And that's the most precious thing.

You can't make somebody not dead, but you can get over obstacles in life. You can get over whatever happened, you know, for a person to want to go off and be independent and break away from a family. I don't believe he could ever do that because whatever he thought of me, he adored his Nana and there was no way on earth he would break his Nana's heart and even if you know that was the case after all these years when some people you know do do this you know they they surface and they come home or they make contact with family and say they don't want to come home it's somehow he was out there and he did hear you what would you want to say to him i love you charles i'm sorry

if i got anything wrong i did my best. We all love you. Your Nana loved you to the end of her days. And we just want and pray that you come home safe to us. Well, we certainly hope that you find out what happened to Charles one day. And again, we'll definitely be sure to share his story and your fight to find him with our listeners and on social media. Thank you. Thank you for having me on the program. And I'm so grateful that you've taken. and Charles's story and that you saw the story all those years ago. Well, thank you, Denise. And again, we hope that you do find answers one day.

Bless you. Bye-bye. That was an amazing interview, Morve, and it's impossible not to feel just unbelievable sympathy for Denise. There's no doubt that she would do anything to find her son and has. And the fact that she still doesn't have the answers she's so desperate for, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, it really is. And you can hear in her voice after all these years the pain that she's gone through and continues to go through. And you and I are parents, and I just don't even know how somebody could go all these years just not knowing and go through that anguish that never seems to end. But incredible strength. It would take an incredible strength to do. do what Denise Horvath Allen has done for this past 29 years.

Now, just last year, Denise appeared on the Britain's Got Talent Show. She performed in a group called The Missing People Choir. And as the choir sang, images of their missing loved ones, including Charles Horvath, were shown on a big screen behind them. The performance was extremely moving. They received a standing ovation, and it brought many in the audience to tears. Before we wrap this episode up, I just wanted to read a poem written by Denise Horvath-Allen that she wrote to her son's killer.

17 years without seeing his beautiful smile. 17 years without feeling his warmth, his touch, his love. 17 years without hearing his voice, his laughter, his sense of humor. Will you ever tell where you put him? Will we ever find the answer? Will you ever allow us to have closure? Never again to receive a mom's day card. Never again to hold him in my arms.

Never again being able to say, I am sorry. Do you ever sleep at night? Do you have children of your own? Do you have a mom? On Wednesday at 7.15 a.m. On the 21st day of August, the summer of 1968, a baby boy, my son was born. One day in the summer of 1989, you took away my only son, my mom's only grandson, a 20-year-old young man from our lives.

On the 17th day of August, the summer of 1949, I was born. My mom, Charles Nana, gave me life. On Sunday, 9th of January, 2006, my mom died. My mom died after living in hope for nearly 17 years that her beloved grandson Charles would be found. Is this too my fate? to die never knowing where Charles remains lie? Please, won't you tell? Please allow us closure. Please give us peace. And Morph, I think we need to give out some information to the folks listening to this episode.

You know, we can't forget. This is an unsolved case. So if you know anything about the disappearance of Charles Horvath, we ask that you reach out to the authorities or to his mother, Denise. You can email Denise at Denise Allen with two A's at hotmail.com. Or you can find her through her Facebook page, search for Charles. You can reach out to the Colonna RCMP switchboard at 250762-3300, or crime stoppers at 1-800-222-2-2-2-2-2.

8477. But if you know something, please do the right thing. We need to help Denise find her son. So this episode was a little bit different than some of the other ones we've done before. For one, it was our first Canadian case, and it was also our first missing person's case. And I hope somehow, Mike, that Denise, after all these years, gets the answer that she's been longing for. Yeah, Morvite. There's somebody out there. that knows the truth. Could they be listening to this podcast? Maybe.

Is it time for them to finally reveal what they know? There's no time like right now. But that's the case of the disappearance of Charles Horvath. If you like the show, please go out, give us a five-star rating. Give us a review if you want to. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. You know, that ensures that you don't miss any future upcoming

episodes. And we are very active on social media. You can find us on Twitter with the handle Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by searching Criminology Podcast. And we have a very awesome and friendly 3,000 member strong discussion forum on Facebook, which is called Criminology Podcast Discussion and Fans. So we tease it at the very beginning of this episode that we're going to let you know what we have in store for you for season four, which starts in two weeks on the 29th. Morph, do you want to tell them what season four is about? I'd love to.

This is something we've been excited about, and it's almost here, so let's reveal it. We sort of tie into where we were in season two when we covered the Golden State Killer case when it was solved using DNA. and then we started hearing the terms Jedmatch and Parabon and Forensic Genealogy and all these new terms that were just in the news as all these other cases started to fall like dominoes and they were all solved and they continue to be solved. And we are happy to tell you that this season is going to be all of the cases that have been solved so far using things like Jedmatch, Parabon, Forensic Genealogy.

And I think we're very excited about what we've got coming up for you. And these are all cases that were solved in 2018. So we're excited. We're excited about season four. We hope you are too. Again, if you're not subscribed, make sure you subscribe so that you automatically get the first episode of season four, which comes out September 29. So we'll talk to you in two weeks.

And we'll see you for season four.