Criminology - Debbie Collier

Episode Date: October 9, 2022

In September 2022, 59-year-old Debbie Collier disappeared. The police were able to track her rental van and found her remains pretty quickly. But, the scene was mysterious, and the authorities so far have been working hard to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss this bizarre and currently evolving case. Debbie was seen on surveillance footage at a store more than 70 miles away from her home. The authorities discovered a mysterious Venmo transaction from Debbie to her daughter Amanda that included an extremely cryptic message. Police have ruled out suicide and have said publicly that there is no serial killer involvement. Some members of Debbie's family have come under scrutiny online. This is a case that needs to be monitored closely to find out what police know as additional details are revealed. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app, when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill, too? All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast experts set up on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. evening of mystery, mayhem, and exploration of the dark side of humanity. I'm Dr. Shiloh, a former cop. And I'm Dr. Scott, a former Hollywood casting director. Now we're both forensic

psychologists working in Southern California. Are you fascinated by the twisted minds that commit criminal acts? Do you ever wonder, how could they do that? In each episode of our podcast, L.A. Not So Confidential, we dissect the nexus where true crime, forensic psychology, and entertainment... Steve Blanchard was exaggerating our daughter's medical condition for financial gain. We serve up fascinating cases viewed through the lens of human behavior. Why is your brother afraid of you? I've not delivered with our signature gallows humor while examining the actual diagnoses

and dishing on the media portrayal. Subscribe to L.A. Not So confidential anywhere you go for podcasts. Come and join us for L.A. Not So. Confidential. Trust us. We're doctors. Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 227 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford.

Mr. Morford. How are you? We've got to talk about the week that you went through last week. It was a rough week with Hurricane Ian. It affected a lot of people here in southwest Florida and then obviously it moved up because. into the Carolinas, it was just a real ugly situation. And, you know, my family was fortunate enough to, you know, at the last second, we decided to go to Orlando and sort of run from the storm.

But we took a direct hit here in the Port Charlotte area where I live at in Florida. And, you know, up and down the coast here, it's just, you know, you go on the Fort Myers and areas close by. It's just ravage. There's still people without power or without phone. without, you know, water up until the last couple days, gas, things like that, just not possible to get. So just a real ugly situation and, you know, I'm sad to see so many people going through it. Yeah, it was definitely a very, very bad storm.

But that's the thing with that type of weather, you know, do they really know? And I don't think so. They have an idea. How bad could it be? But until it, you know, it makes landfall. You don't really know how devastating it can truly be. But I'm glad you're safe. I'm glad your family's safe.

And our thoughts have been with everyone who's dealing with it, gone through it. You know, people lost their lives. It was horrible. Yeah. The loss of life, obviously, is a big thing. People have lost their homes. It's just a really terrible situation. Obviously, people can rebuild property.

So that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is people's safety. But just anyone out there listening, if you can help in any way, you can contact the red Cross.org or volunteer florida.org and you can make donations and that can go towards medical care, you know, water, helping people get shelter, those kinds of things. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Regina Abigail Adams, Richard Williams, Kira Grebby, Brandon Dellinger, and Daniel Flesher. So that's a lot of great new support and more if we really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much for putting in that effort to help support the show.

we can't thank you enough. For anyone out there that like to help support criminology, you can do so by going to patreon.com slash criminology. All right, buddy, let's go ahead and jump into this episode. And this week's case is perhaps one of the strangest ones we've covered recently. It's still unresolved. And hopefully it comes to a resolution soon. Injustice can be found.

It's a case the public has been really invested in, likely due to the mystery surrounding some of the factors involved We're all waiting for updates in this case, but no one wants a resolution more than the family of Debbie Collier, a mother from Georgia. The details surrounding her case are pretty strange. On Saturday, September 10, 2002, around 6 p.m., an officer from the Athens-Clark County Police Department in Georgia arrived at the home of Stephen and Deborah Collier. 59-year-old Deborah, where Debbie, as she was known, was missing. Stephen Collier told police that he had last seen his wife the night before at around 9 p.m. when he was getting ready for bed.

Stephen explained to police that he snored heavily, and because of this, he and Debbie slept in different rooms. When Stephen awoke the next morning, he didn't see Debbie, but didn't think much of it, and he got ready for work. As he left the house to head to work, he saw Debbie's rented vehicle, a black Chrysler Pacifica still parked in the driveway, and he assumed Debbie was still asleep and headed off to work at around 9. Debbie normally drove a Ford Ranger pickup, but it had been involved in an accident a month earlier and was in the shop. So she was driving the minivan until her truck was fixed. Debbie was reportedly driving behind a truck when a can of paint fell from the truck and hit Debbie's pickup doing some damage. It seemed like a rather minor incident at the time, but as we'll get into, some people think that it may have far-reaching implications in this case.

Stephen Collier worked all day. And when he got home and found that Debbie and the minivan were gone, he figured that she was just at the grocery store shopping. According to Stephen, Debbie routinely did her weekly shopping on Saturdays. So nothing really seemed out of the ordinary to him. It wasn't until Debbie's 38-year-old daughter, Amanda Bearden, came to the house and told Stephen about the last contact that she had with her mom, that he really became worried. According to Amanda, the last time she had seen Debbie in person was the day before when Debbie bought Amanda and her boyfriend Andrew lunch. At 3.17 p.m. on Saturday, Amanda's Venmo account received $2,385 from Stephen and Debbie's account. The memo was ominous. It read, they are not going to let me go.

Love you. There is a key to the house in the blue flower pot. by the door. When Amanda saw this message from her mother, she began to worry. She tried to call Debbie, but there was no answer. So she decided to go tell Stephen Collier what was going on. Then Stephen became worried. He later told WALB News 10, her daughter came over with that strange message and then went upstairs to her bedroom and found out that her driver's license and credit card was still here. So that doesn't sound like her leaving the house to go shopping. So I think more right off the bat, there is a ton of mystery. Obviously, you have Debbie who's missing and then you have this strange financial transaction

through Venmo for what's a pretty good amount of money, $2,385. But on top of that, the memo, they're not going to let me go. I think if you're Steven, I mean, just like we said, but it's at that point that you really become worried. And I try and put myself in her shoes. And I think if I had gotten that same message, I would say, okay, let me look this over. Because at first, to me, it would seem like it's possibly a scheme. You know, some of these people come up with these elaborate things to get you to try and commit somehow to money.

But here she's receiving the money. So that would be, you know, a little bit different than some of these schemes and scams. But I'd want to check it out and just say, okay, is there something? going on. Here's this legit. Somebody really sent me money. Is it really from the person that says it's from? So I can understand, you know, her concern and just going right over to Stephen and saying, hey, I can't get a hold of mom. And here's what happened with this Venmo payment. And I think Stephen could clear it pretty quickly that if he doesn't know anything about that payment and it really was from their account, then all of a sudden that message really becomes more urgent. Because

if it's really from his account and her mom sent that with that message, it seems like something is seriously wrong. It's been widely reported that Debbie had left the house in a rental van with nothing but her driver's license and debit card. But on the 911 call, which was recently released, when Stephen Collier called the reporter missing, he mentions that, according to Amanda, who went upstairs to check her room, Debbie left her purse and driver's license and credit cards at the house. Stephen also refers to the ominous message as a text message, not a Venmo transaction, even though the Venmo account name read Stephen Collier. It almost seemed like he was unaware of the transaction. Amanda, Stephen, and the officer taking the report, and even dispatch called Debbie's

phone. Each time it went straight to voicemail. Debbie was officially listed as a missing person that night. The Athens-Clark County Police Department contacted Sirius XM, and luckily, on Sunday, day September 11th, the company was able to track Debbie's rental car and Sirius XM then contacted investigators with Habersham County to say that the van was off of Georgia Route 15, about 60 miles away from where Debbie lived in Athens. Habersham County Police responded to the location and near 1 p.m. found the black minivan unlocked, but Debbie was not inside. According to an oxygen.com article, The area the van was found in was a pull-off that leads to an old logging road. It wasn't that out of the ordinary to find unoccupied cars near where Debbie's van was parked.

An officer from Tallulah Falls reached out to Habersham County deputies to let them know that the minivan had been spotted, parked in the spot where it was found the evening before at around 5 p.m. Investigators notified Amanda about the location of her mom's rental and Amanda raced to the scene. and confirmed that it was indeed her mother's rental car. Authorities, with the help of a canine officer, were able to narrow their search and track Debbie's trail from her car, and her body was found in an embankment, about a quarter mile from the road. She wasn't wearing any clothing, and she was lying on her back face up.

Her right hand was still grasping a nearby tree. Debbie's body was partially burned with charring on her abdomen. Some burned remnants of items were found nearby at the base of a lawyer. tree that had fallen some time ago. The exposed roots hanging in the air were charred. It looked like there had been a fire in the area, with some leaves and branches blackened and burned. Somehow it hadn't spread. Under the base of the tree, paper towels had burned. A plastic buckle in pieces of a blue tarp had melted. A bright red piece of fabric was melted and charred, and there was a red tote bag found lying on its side. There's been no mention of whether her shoes or clothes had been found.

It was clarified in a press briefing in late September that Debbie's phone was found at the crime scene and has been collected as evidence. A purse was also found nearby and recovered. Amanda, who was at the scene, was said to be hysterical after hearing that her mom's body was found. Amanda told the investigators that Debbie had a bad back and was not able to walk long distances. And Debbie was found even further down the path than some of her belongings and the remnants of of the fire. This long distance on an unpaved surface seemed highly unlikely for Debbie to have chosen just to take a stroll. The implication here was that she had either been forced to walk that quarter of a mile or she was carried, most likely against her will. It's not clear

from the research as to whether Debbie or any of her family members had any acquaintances in the area where she was found. Amanda told police that Debbie had no history of mental illness or suicidal ideations and Debbie's death was quickly determined to be a homicide and didn't take long before investigators stated that Debbie was not the victim of suicide and that they had ruled out the possibility of a kidnapping despite the cryptic Venmo message Debbie Collier's exact cause of death has not been released pending an autopsy and police may decide not to release the details surrounding her cause of death. And it's always tough, right? When police don't release all the details, this is what we find in cases that are still insolved, obviously they have to have

some pretty good information because they're ruling out suicide and they're calling her death a homicide. They're also ruling out the possibility of a kidnapping. And we mentioned that very cryptic, ominous Venmo message. So they've got some information. We just don't know what it is. Yeah, and without having access to the reports and the things obviously that they've chosen to keep back, it's hard to come to any conclusions here. But it definitely seems like a pretty strange scene where this took place and all those

things that were found. And as I think we'll get into, it becomes clear where some of those things may have come from. But without those full details being revealed, It's led to a lot of online theories. There are a few scenarios that may explain the clues found at the crime scene. Someone could have murdered Debbie and tried to set her body on fire. We know fire is a great way to destroy things like DNA

or maybe something like a business card linking you to the victim, but it's hard to control. Perhaps thinking they had started a successful fire, when the flames started, they may have left, thinking the fire would have engulfed Debbie's body. But the fire was only able to char the dead leaves and branches, as well as Debbie's admin. And it didn't spread and the fire went out.

Despite police ruling out suicide, it hasn't stopped some people from asking, what if Debbie started the fire? In late September, authorities released a video from a family dollar store in Clayton, Georgia, on September 10th, the day Debbie Collier vanished.

This was more than 70 miles away from her home in Athens. It's worth noting that there is a dollar general less than two miles from Debbie's house that would have had all the same items, essentially at the same prices. And there are more dollar stores in between her home and that particular family dollar. So it seems very unlikely that Debbie drove 70 miles just to get something from this one particular family dollar store in Clayton, Georgia. The video surveillance was recorded at 255 p.m.

about 20 minutes before she sent that money to Amanda through Venmo with the strange note attached. In the surveillance, you can see Debbie's rental van pull up outside. Debbie then walks into the store alone. She was dressed casually like she was going to a football game. She was wearing shorts or a skirt, a bright orange visor and a University of Georgia football jersey. The Georgia Bulldogs did have a game. at 4 p.m. that day against Sanford, she was carrying the keys to her rental car as well as a black purse. Some people have commented that in the footage of Debbie leaving the family dollar,

it looks like a woman, possibly in a family dollar uniform, heads into the store. And Debbie waits for her by parking in another spot. As soon as that woman gets back to her car, Debbie slowly drives off. and the woman drives behind her, but you can't see if they went the same way on the highway. Of course, even if this is accurate, there may be no way to tell. If Debbie even really knew this other woman, they could have just been two people in the same parking lot at the same time and nothing more. Esther Kreller, the clerk who checked Debbie out that day, told 11 alive news, I do remember checking her out, but I really don't remember what we talked about.

At the store, Debbie bought a blue tarp, two rolls of paper towels, a poncho, what's being called a red tote bag, it looks like a large reusable grocery bag, and a refillable torch lighter. Remnants of these purchased items appear to have been found at the spot where Debbie's body was found. Debbie paid for a purchase with a credit or debit card and didn't seem nervous. Some reports state that Debbie didn't take a receipt with her, but police were able to obtain a copy of the store's receipt. Debbie was at the Family Dollar until 309 p.m. based on the surveillance video and timing of the transaction. So she was in the store for less than 15 minutes. Debbie's phone was turned off at 3.17 p.m. the same minute that the Venmo transaction was made.

Using footage from other businesses that share the same parking lot as the Family Dollar, investigators found that Debbie had not left the lot until 3.19 p.m. two minutes after her phone was turned off. This means that she sent the Venmo message while in her car in that parking lot. Her time of death has been narrowed down to a window of time between 319 p.m. on September 10th when she left the family dollar and 1245 p.m. on September 11th when her car was found. The surveillance video showed Debbie leaving the parking lot at 319 and heading south on Georgia Interstate 15

towards Tolulu Falls Investigator George Kaysan mentioned to Fox News. If anyone had contact with Deborah Collier during that time frame, please we encourage you to come forward and speak with us. According to the Habersham

County Sheriff's Office, Debbie was alone in her rental van when she went to the family dollar. They scoured surveillance footage from the store and surrounding buildings, but there was no evidence of anyone with Debbie. One little detail here is that in the video Debbie at the family dollar paying for items, she gets her debit card or credit card out of her pocket, not the purse she was carrying.

I'm not exactly a purse guy, but I've seen many women comment that they would love to know what's inside that purse due to its bulky size. Authorities have confirmed that the purse seen in the family dollar surveillance video is the purse. They recovered from the crime scene. As we mentioned, although authorities ruled out the possibility of a suicide, some people still have doubts and think it's possible that Debbie did take her own life, but suicide by fire is unimaginable to many. Very recently, we covered the Istale woman, an unidentified woman who was found burned in the woods in Norway in 1970. In that case, there was a lot of debate whether she was a murder victim or took her own life. Others theorized that maybe the fire was to keep Debbie warm as she laid on the tarp waiting to drift off to sleep, almost as if she was camping out there. But then you have to ask the big question.

Why would Debbie decide to go to that out of the way spot to camp or lay down or hang out or really anything? Or as some people have theorized to take her own life. Some people have wondered if Debbie could have overdosed or used poison. The fire burning her could have been accidental. Investigators have clarified that until they get the completed toxicology report, they can't rule this possibility out. But it's not where their investigation is leading. Perhaps Debbie wasn't attacked by someone and she simply may have stripped her clothes off herself

because her clothes had caught on fire. So a lot of speculation, right, in a case like this, you see a lot of it online. A lot of that stems from the fact that we just don't know all of the details that police know. But we said they feel confident that Debbie's death is not a suicide and it's not an accident. It's a murder. They were also clear to state that they do not believe Debbie's murder was random or that there is some budding serial killer. on the loose. They stated that this crime was deliberate and personal. And I do think more if this is an interesting conversation.

So we have the determination of homicide over suicide. But then you have this very specific statement from a police brief that says this crime was deliberate and personal. It wasn't random. There's not some serial killer out there. This wasn't someone who, you know, just saw Debbie and decided that they wanted to kill her. This was someone who specifically went after her. For what reason we don't know.

But I do think that determination is very interesting. Yeah, and that tells me that they have to have something that they're not sharing that makes them feel that way. that's leading to have that strong an opinion that this wasn't an accident, it wasn't a suicide, that Debbie didn't run into some random killer out there in the woods. This was someone that was targeting her and may have been close to her. Well, and that's the key, right? May have been close to her. Now, how close we don't know.

But you would think that this person would have to have knowledge of Debbie, be at the very least on the periphery of her friend group, her acquaintances, something like that. Because if it's not random, then there's a reason why this person wanted to harm her. But there's got to be a connection there. And I'm sure police are working hard to try to make it. During the course of their investigation, authorities found something else puzzling. At 2.17 p.m. on Saturday, Debbie's rental van was captured by a Toulula Falls school camera, traveling northbound, north of the crime scene.

This is around 15 miles south of the family dollar, but she didn't get there until almost 3 p.m. It's still unknown what exactly Debbie did that day. Something else thought about the spot that Debbie was found in is that she would have had to make a U-turn on the highway to get to it, because there's a center divider blocking any turns in that spot if you're driving there from the spot. the family dollar. She could have seen the spot as she drove from Athens to Clayton and deliberately made that U-turn to get back to it after shopping. The Tall school camera apparently didn't capture Debbie's van and she drove back south somehow, but investigators are double-checking the footage. One thing that is really intrigued the online sleuth community is that Venmo message.

We talked about it. It was eerie, conjuring up the image of a quick-thinking Debbie. being held captive. Maybe she had been in a situation where she couldn't talk, but she felt as though the money transfer and the message would be enough of a clue that something was really wrong. The amount sent through Venmo is odd. It's not an even $2,000 or $500. It's very specific. $2,385. Even $2,300 would have been, like, $1,000. $1,300 would have been, like, strange. So it's either very specific or completely random. And then you have the message. Saying they almost makes it seem as though the person receiving the message will know who the sender is referring to. Authorities as of September 30th stated that they don't know where the money from that

Venmo transaction actually is. And to me, Morp, that is maybe not the key, but it's definitely a big piece of the puzzle. You know, they've got to figure this out. I get it, you know, this case is unfolding. It's very recent. We just mentioned as of September 30th. It seems to me as though it wouldn't be hard for some law enforcement agency to figure out where that money is.

I get it. It went from one Venmo account to another, from Stevens to Amanda's. but Amanda is a part of the family. And so if the money left her account and went somewhere, my thought is, number one, she should be able to tell the authorities or two, there should be a trail, a financial trail that police should be able to get to. It's not like you can just withdraw money from Venmo cash and there be no record of it. I mean, you have to transfer it, my understanding is into your account, a bank account or something

like that. There has to be a paper trail. And I believe that you can get a credit card or debit card attached to Venmo as well and spend the money that way. But you're right, there's got to be some way to track who withdrew the money, where it was taken from, that kind of thing. And I think that's one of the challenges of covering cases as they're breaking. details are coming out almost daily sometimes.

So there could be some of that going on. But there's been cases before when you have a digital trail, electronics, social media, that kind of thing, that you think would help the case. And it actually confuses that Delphi comes to mind. There's, you know, there's discussion of social media having something to do with that crime. And you think they could use that to track down potential suspects in that case.

But it's really, almost a rabbit hole trying to use that digital footprint sometimes. So it'll be interesting to see what happens and what ultimately comes out of this. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do but had once been impossible.

A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and Water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. While some people are spending a lot of time on this Venmo clue, a lot of other people think the Venmo transaction was a misdirection. The money simply had come from Stephen's Venmo account and gone to Amanda. That's led some of them to ask if one of them or both of them are hiding something. In a murder, the spouse or a recent ex is usually looking.

looked at closely. Now, a lot of people who snore or have partners who snore and only in one bedroom to sleep in together have questioned Stephen's story, while others in a similar situation have backed up Stephen Collier and defended him. For what it's worth, on the 911 call, Stephen sounds like he's a bit embarrassed to admit he hadn't seen his wife since the night before. Regardless of opinions on their sleeping arrangements, Stephen has an alibi for a large chunk of that day. He was working. Stephen was on camera doing his job that day, and he has a solid alibi from 9 a.m. to 4.06 p.m. He would have had to drive 120 miles round trip to get to the spot that Debbie was found and back, starting at 406, and get back before 6 p.m. To report Debbie missing without anyone noticing he was gone.

In other words, it doesn't seem possible. So we know people are always suspicious of the spouse. In this case, it would be the husband, Stephen. then sounds like he's got a pretty solid alibi. What I would say morph is we've seen what we have thought were pretty solid alibis fall apart. I'm not saying that this man had anything to do with his wife's death. I'm simply stating that alibis that appear to be rock solid aren't always in the end,

but it's always natural, rightly or wrongly, for a spouse to be looked at when someone disappears, which I always think is an unbelievably tough thing for that person. If they had nothing to do whatsoever with their spouses disappearance or murder, number one, you're trying to deal with the fact that your wife has been found murdered. And then secondly, you're dealing with suspicion on you, right? This cloud hanging over your head, following you or. around. That has to be a very tough position to be in. Yeah, it'd have people, you know, wondering, making accusations, that kind of thing. I think, as you mentioned, a lot of times,

you know, alibis do seem steady and rock solid. And sometimes it turns out to be that the alibi isn't as good. But in this case, it seems as if it would at least move him further down the list of potential suspects. Yeah, I would say, absolutely. And I think with Stephen Collier appearing to have this solid alibi, online sluice started looking into other people close to Debbie. And a lot of that attention has been focused on Debbie's daughter, Amanda. People have asked a lot of questions. And why would Debbie tell Amanda in that Venmo message that there was a key if Stephen would be there to let her in? Was there some type of emergency where she would need to get in before Steve was home.

Was there some sort of strained relationship there? There's just a number of questions that people have asked. According to a neighbor in a New York Post article, there was a commotion at the house on September 9th, the night that Debbie was supposedly last seen by Stephen. The neighbor added, somebody comes up to visit on the weekends and in the evenings, and there's loud screaming and fighting. People assumed that it was Stephen and Debbie arguing, but the neighbor revealed that it was a woman who visited before the commotion.

Armed with the possibility that Debbie argued with a woman the night before she vanished, people went digging into her daughter Amanda's background and her court records. They found that Amanda's boyfriend, Andrew, has a criminal history. Most recently, he violated probation and spent six days in jail, returning home just two days before Debbie was reported missing. Unconfirmed claims. making the rounds on social media state that Andrew has $2,385 in outstanding legal fees, the same amount that was sent via Venmo.

But this claim, again, is unverified. Amanda and Andrew apparently have a tumultuous history. According to the New York Post article, documents note that Andrew and Amanda have a family violence relationship. In May 2021, Amanda called police claiming that Andrew broke into her home and attacked her, leaving bruises on her arms. After an investigation, Amanda was arrested for making a false report.

Andrew lived in the home she claimed he broke into. Records also show that Andrew was arrested and charged with battery at some point. In September 2021, Andrew violated a restraining order and went to Amanda's house. CrimeOnline.com reported that he told officers on scene that he needed Amanda to cash his paychecks and said, that's the only reason we've had any contact because every week she takes $500 or $600 from my check and I just don't see how that's right. He called it the dumbest mistake he had ever made, but admitted the first person to touch my money

is her. He also claimed that she used the money for drugs. Another thing that jumps out to people is that Amanda moved from Maryland where she lived with her brother, Jeffrey, back to Georgia, just two days before Debbie disappeared. The timing of Andrew and Amanda's homecoming has many wondering if they were both involved. But Andrew said to Fox News, we're a little scared ourselves. With an unknown perpetrator out there, a dangerous one, he and Amanda sleep with both the front and back doors barricaded, as he says, because we didn't have anything to do with us.

One thing that's really muddied the waters is a tip that investigators received, that Amanda was at the family dollar with Debbie that day. if Debbie had been with Amanda, sending that message and money to her was even more strange. But this isn't what happened. At the press briefing, it was clarified that an investigator asked Amanda if she had been to the family dollar, and she described shopping there for cleaning supplies for her apartment. The cashier was confused about whether she had seen Debbie or Amanda until investigators were able to show her photos to choose from, and then she was certain that Amanda wasn't with Debbie.

Well, and that makes sense more if they've got surveillance. Valence footage. I mean, that would have showed Amanda, I think clearly. Yeah. To anyone it watches the video, it seems clear that Debbie walks into that store by herself and is alone the whole time. Adding to the uncertainty surrounding this case, according to Fox 5 Atlanta, the incident report has a section asking, did investigation indicate that this incident was drug related? The box next to, yes, is checked.

Another box indicating that the substance used by the offender is unknown is also checked with an X. It's completely unknown how this determination was made given that there is no publicly known suspect at this time. Some people thought that when it's unknown, whether there are drugs involved. Yes and unknown are checked by default because they don't know that the answer is no. There is no box for unsure or maybe. At the late September press briefing, it was clarified that when patrol deputies respond and don't know, they mark whatever may be applicable. Scrutiny to Amanda's background hasn't eased up. And a lot of people are trying to connect this back to Amanda because in 2013, as per the New York Post, she violated probation by apparently trying to provide a fraudulent sample during a drug test.

nine years, the length of time since Amanda's drug-related probation violation is a long time. It's also the length of time that Debbie and Stephen were married. Some people are trying to tie this to Amanda's alleged drug history and that this might be some kind of retribution over that. But it seems that it would have happened much sooner than it did if it truly was retribution. Perhaps most damning in the eyes of people who suspect Amanda's involvement was that, that just days after Debbie's body was found, authority served a search warrant at Amanda's house. This was just one of multiple warrants

that authorities served in order to search for evidence and Debbie's murder, Amanda's boyfriend Andrew told the New York Post, they've interrogated all of us. The people who are closest to her are kind of looked at as suspects right now. He also mentioned that investigators had taken both of their phones for analysis.

one of Debbie's friends told the New York Post there's a reason we're keeping quiet. Neighbors seem scared with one telling the post, I don't understand what's taking so long. They're slow out here. So neighbors are scared. And I can understand that. I think if somebody was murdered in your neighborhood, even though it didn't happen in your neighborhood, but the person lived there, that would be a scary thing, especially when it seems as though police are really focused on.

the people who are closest to Debbie. Now, they've said that there's no serial killer on the loose. So I guess they don't have to be scared of that. But they're still left to wonder, okay, somebody did this. And that person has not yet been identified. Do they live in our neighborhood? Do they visit our neighborhood? What's taking so long to figure it out?

And I think more of that's a pretty normal sentiment. I think a lot of people don't understand why police don't solve some of these cases sooner. Maybe a little misguided, but I think a lot of people have that kind of thought. Yeah, I think especially in these smaller communities where this stuff doesn't happen frequently, even though the police are trying to say, hey, this is an isolated incident. Debbie was targeted. There's nothing to worry about here. I can see those residents still saying, hey, we're not used to this.

There's a killer out there someplace and wondering if they're in danger. People have even turned to Debbie's social media looking for clues. Photos of Debbie from one of her Facebook posts show her with a pretty nasty eye injury in 2020. According to Fox News, Debbie wrote, Look what I did to myself when I face-planted on the concrete sidewalk. It does look more like a concrete scrape than a bruise from being hit by a person, but people still wonder if there was more to Debbie's story than it seems. could some unnamed person who heard her in 2020 have come back and murdered her?

The problem with this case may be the lack of serious evidence pointing to a real suspect. But as for suspects with motives, those who knew Debbie are coming up short. Debbie was a front office manager at Carriage House Realty in Athens. She and Stephen Collier had been married for nine years. They shared a Facebook account. Their life seemed drama-free. Debbie's son Jeffrey told Fox News, my mother was a very vibrant and strong soul.

She was a person who valued kindness, empathy, and understanding throughout her entire life. Amanda told the New York Post, she was a beautiful, kind, giving woman, and she didn't deserve any of this. Debbie's sister Diane Shirley thought of someone else that may have had a motive to harm Debbie. According to WALB News, Shirley called 911 when she learned that Debbie was missing, asking for information. She mentioned that when Debbie had gotten into the car accident, when the paint can hit her. The driver was trying to convince Debbie not to tell the cops that he was driving because he was out on parole. Apparently, a condition of that parole was that he not get behind the wheel of a car. Debbie did report an accident on April 30th, but authorities have not released any information on a possible parolee suspect.

and it's unclear if Debbie was in another accident between April and September. One of the most recent things to be cleared up was that this driver who was involved in the paint can accident with Debbie was on probation and not parole. So, I mean, there's no doubt more. If people are looking at anybody and everybody, right, as a possible suspect in this case because they don't have the answers. So you have this accident that involved the paint can. You have Debbie's sister Shirley saying that the guy driving was on parole and shouldn't be driving.

Okay. Would that be a motive for possibly wanting to harm Debbie? Maybe. But then you have this clarification that the person was on probation, not parole. And to me, there's a couple of things there. One is that it kind of probably denotes the seriousness of whatever the person had done probation versus parole. But could you have a limitation on you, even if you were on probation that says you shouldn't be driving, possibly? Yeah, and I think we hear of all kinds of

crazy reasons why someone finds a motive to murder someone. I think a lot of people have hinted that perhaps this guy was so angry with Debbie over this accident and her reporting of it that he took revenge. And again, we don't know all the details about what this person has in their background, what they were charged with. Are they serious crimes or, you know, violent crimes? We don't know that. But at this point, there's just nothing there beyond speculation that ties this guy to her murder.

A few days after the surveillance video was released, it was announced that detectives had discovered what Fox News called an unfired round, near where they had found Debbie's body. It was just 20 to 30 yards uphill from where she had been found in the Chattahoochia-Coney National Forest. Though it's a large forest and people do hunt in the area, former Miami-Dade homicide detective Pat Diaz calls the find unusual, stating that a hunter is not using a 223 round, plus it's bow season. Many hunters, some online and some I've asked, say they would use a 223 round to hunt.

The photo that's been released of the round shows that the tip is purple. The jacket seems a bit dull. It may not at all be related to Debbie's murder because it looks like it could have been lying there in the woods exposed to the elements for quite a while. Yeah, it seems strange to me that this detective would say that a hunter wouldn't use a 223 round. Is it the most ideal round? I would say, no, I'm not a hunter, so I don't really know. But I do believe that some people use a 223 round to hunt. I think that's, I think that's pretty true.

And he may have arrived at that theory because perhaps that round isn't one that's permitted in hunting in their area. We didn't look into the game laws there for hunting, but maybe that's one reason he came to that. But of course, you know, people don't always follow the rules when they're out hunting. You have poachers and stuff doing things they shouldn't be doing. So, you know, I don't think you can come to any solid conclusion based on the 223 round. So more of you and I have been doing this for a while. We definitely know that very strange and sometimes unexplained, mysterious deaths or murders like this do happen.

The still unsolved murder of Judy Smith comes to mind for me. On April 9, 1997, Judy and Jeffrey Smith were at Logan International Airport in Boston, ready to fly to Philadelphia for Jeffrey's work conference when she realized she had left her passport at home. Jeffrey went ahead while she went home to get her passport and arrange a later flight. She met Jeffrey in the hotel lobby in Philadelphia with flowers that evening. When Jeffrey woke up the next morning, Judy was still asleep, so he went to get breakfast. When he got back to the room, Judy was showering. They talked and they joked a little bit before he left for the conference session.

Judy planned to visit Independence Hall, the Liberty Bell, and other tourist areas before meeting Jeffrey at the hotel. at 6 p.m. They were going to go to a cocktail party together. Jeffrey went to the room after the conference and Judy wasn't there, so he thought she may have gone to the party without him. But he soon discovered that she wasn't at the cocktail party, that she had vanished. There were a few sightings of Judy, but only a few that her family felt really could be her. On September 7, 1997, almost six months after Judy vanished, skeletal remains were found scattered near Asheville, North Carolina. dental records would prove that these were the remains of Judy Smith. $167 was found with her body, only $33 missing from what she had with her that day she disappeared from Philadelphia.

It's believed that Judy was killed in an unknown location and then dumped in the woods because based on her skeleton, she had advanced arthritis in her knee, making it unlikely she walked to that spot by herself because it would have been a far and difficult walk for someone with a struggling victim. her murder is still unsolved and it's similar in many ways to Debbie Clawyer's case. And this was a really interesting and more memorable Unsolved Mysteries episode. Did you see this one, Mike? No. Yeah, go back if you can find it.

It's a really interesting case and segment from that show. I think you could say that about a lot of Unsolved Mysteries episodes. People love that show. But getting back to Debbie's case, there may be movement in her case soon. We mentioned that this is pretty recent. It's an ongoing case. On September 30th, Colonel Murray Kogat stated, we are now just beginning to get responses to search warrants and subpoenas in the case. It will be interesting to find out what time Debbie left her home that morning and why she didn't do her weekly shopping like she normally did, but instead went

in order. The upcoming holiday season, family meals, festivities will not be the same without Debbie, her son Jeffrey told Fox News, my mother consumed herself with the holidays as her focus remained on family and the value of being together over a home-cooked meal. He says that Debbie would shower her family with thoughtful gifts and gestures every holiday. Authorities continue to investigate Debbie Collier's case. No one has been ruled out and the full autopsy and toxicology report has not yet been completed. Debbie's son, Jeffrey, told Fox News, there's no place for the court of public opinion in the pursuit of justice for my mother. If you have any information about the murder of Deborah Collier, you can call Habersham County Sheriff's Investigator Cal Garrison at 706-839-0559 or George Kaysen at 706-839-560.

To morph as we wrap up this case, Jeffrey said there's no place for the court of public opinion in their pursuit of justice for my mother. I understand that statement, but there's always going to be public opinion. There's going to be speculation. It's just what happens. When you have, you know, these mysterious cases, people are diving in. People are weighing in. They're trying to figure it out along with the authorities. Now, Jeffrey's saying, don't do that. I get it. Let the police handle it. But that's just not the way it works. Yeah, it's hard. I think human nature, we just want to know answers to things that are unanswered. In this case, when the clues are so strange, it's hard not to be even more perplexed and want to know those answers. And I think you,

you hit on it, right? The more strange facts in a case, I feel as though the more the public is perplexed and they, they want to know the answers, I guess even more in those types of cases. But, you know, looking back, kind of recapping this thing, there's a couple of things that stand out to me. You know, first I want to talk about Debbie. And we touched on it. It seems as though she had this really great life with Stephen, meaning that there didn't seem to be kind of a in-your-face motive for someone to want to hurt her. As far as we know, she hadn't wronged anybody. So is it natural when you have a situation like that for police to focus closer to home?

And I would I would think that it probably is. Yeah. And from everything we see clue-wise in this case, it seems at least to me, you know, we have her driving as far as we can tell alone to this on this trip out to this store, far from her home. She buys these specific things. she's alone, she doesn't show any signs of distress, then some of those things she purchases are found where she's found with her body. It almost seems to me from all those clues that

she went there willingly alone and that might point to suicide. But we mentioned the police strongly believe this is not suicide. This is homicide. So obviously there's a missing puzzle piece here that they're holding back that is leading them to believe that. Well, and with this case, being so fresh, so recent. You said, you mentioned it. Things are coming out all the time. There could be huge breaks in this case that come very quickly. And some of the things that we said or some of the things that other people have speculated on may not make any sense whatsoever when the truth is revealed. That's kind of normal when you're covering a very recent unsolved. case. But for me, you know, this Venmo, I feel as though that is at the heart of it somehow,

the amount, the message, the cryptic ominous message. And then police are saying they don't know where the money is. And it may just be that they haven't figured it out yet. They haven't gotten the records that would tell them exactly where it is. But I don't know, something is so strange with this case. And one thing you mentioned was, that when the case has some kind of resolution, some of the things that were said and some of the clues, you know, may not be that important or might not make sense.

But I hope it gets to that point where there is resolution in this case because that's something the family definitely needs. And the community needs it from the sounds of it, because they're still worried that there's someone dangerous there. Well, I think there is someone dangerous. obviously if this was a murder then there is a very dangerous individual who has not been apprehended so I mean I could understand why people in the community would be a little leery or be more guarded until this thing gets resolved but this is one that I'm really going to

keep an eye on because I'm perplexed I would like to know the answers I would like to see this thing solved, if no one in the family had anything to do with Debbie's murder, then you feel for them because they lost a loved one and then also they're being looked at, which I think those two things together, very tough. But if someone in the family did, then it's going to be interesting if they figure it out to find out what was behind it. What was the reason? What was the motive? But we'll just have to wait and see. If you love the show and you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, give us a rating, you can leave a review.

Keep telling your friends. Word of mouth about the podcast is huge. If you want to find us on social media, we're on Twitter with the handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by searching for Criminology Podcast or by joining our Facebook discussion group, criminology podcast discussion and fans. So that's it for our episode on Debbie Collier. I do believe, Morf, that there will be information that comes out in this case sooner rather than later because some of the things we talked about were just from last week or, you know,

a week ago. So there's going to be things that come out. But we'll be back with everyone next Saturday night with a brand new episode of criminology. So for Mike, we'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.