Criminology - Diane Downs

Episode Date: November 12, 2023

In 1983, Diane Downs shot her three children and blamed it on someone who wanted to steal her car. Diane had a superficial gunshot wound to her arm as she pulled her car into the ambulance bay of a hospital in Springfield, Oregon. She told hospital staff and later law enforcement that a shaggy-haired man had shot them while attempting to steal her car. One of Diane's daughters was pronounced dead at the hospital, while her other two children lived but suffered significant life-changing injuries. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss Diane Downs, who became one of the most hated women in America. The story she told law enforcement changed a few times, and they quickly saw through it. The blood evidence also contradicted her stories. At trial, Diane's oldest daughter had recovered to the point where she could speak, and she told the packed courtroom that it was her mom who shot them. The motive for the shootings left everyone in disbelief. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 282 of the criminology podcast. This is Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Mr. Morford, man. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing good.

How you doing? I'm doing great. Having a really good week. Went down to the college that both of my daughters attend and was able to take them out to lunch and we spent not a day together, but, you know, like two or three hours before their next class. And it was just a nice time. You know, I miss them. I don't get to see them enough. So that was kind of special. That's awesome when you get that time. And I've been doing a little bit of fishing in my spare time. Not that I have a lot of spare time, but you've got to find a little bit of

time to do stuff, break up the routine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you can do it with while spending time with family and all that, even better. I do have this quick story. My oldest called me the other night and said, you know, dad, there's a serial killer in the city where, you know, the colleges that they go to school. And I was like, okay, you've piqued my interest. And she said, they found a decapitated body. You know, the head was there. The limbs were there.

And the torso was there. It was all there, except for, I think, for the bottom. But it had been dismembered. And it was such a weird thing because the true crime person in me was fascinated. And then the dad in me was like, oh, my gosh, this is like two streets over from where my daughter lives. Now I'm scared. That's, that's very creepy. And that's, you.

You know, the mix of, yeah, you want to know more about it because of the true crime part, but you can understand you being worried about your daughter, too. Yeah. And then she said, well, there's, there was rumors, I guess, that they had found three bodies, but it's only one. And I was like, well, still, one is bad enough. Please be careful. Hopefully they find out who did it and get them under, get them apprehended.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Amy Tibble, Kyle James's rad, and Darby. So some great new support. We really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks to everyone that takes the time and support the show. It means a lot to us.

It helps us out. And for anyone else that would like to, you can go to patreon.com slash criminology to sign up. All right. Let's go ahead and dive into this week's case. You know, there are some cases that capture the attention of the entire nation all ones. And it's not just true crime buffs that are talking about these types of cases,

really everyone, even people who don't follow true crime. you know, you can make small talk with strangers at line at the bank or at a store. And you can hear people asking, did you hear about that case? Or maybe it's around the water cooler at work. If places still have water coolers, I don't really know if they do. But you can imagine coworkers shaking their heads and discuss as they launch into their opinion on the whole matter. Well, in May 1983, the case that had everyone.

talking was that of Diane Downs, a 27-year-old mother in Oregon who committed the most unspeakable of crimes, the murder of one of her children, and the attempted murder of two others. The story she gave police quickly fell apart and she was arrested and when the case eventually went to trial, people stood outside and waited for a chance at a seat in the courtroom. line started forming as early as 7 a.m. to witness the trial in the case that people just couldn't get enough up. At 10.48 p.m. on May 19, 1983, Diane Downs pulled her car into the ambulance bay of McKenzie Williamette Hospital in Springfield, Oregon. She heard her horn as hard as she could, trying to get the attention of those inside that could help her and her three young children.

According to the Seattle Times, when nurses began to come out of the hospital, hospital, Diane jumped out of the car and screamed, Somebody just shot my kids. Inside the car, Diane's children, 8-year-old Christy, 7-year-old Cheryl, and 3-year-old Danny were covered in blood. They had each been shot from a very close distance with what investigators believed was a 22-caliber pistol. Diane was also bleeding.

She had been shot in her left forearm, but her injury was nothing compared to the life-threatening gunshot wounds the three children had suffered. Their injuries were so bad that Dyeye had. Dr. John Mackie, who was at the hospital that night, told the Washington Post, it was an emergency physician's nightmare. This was an all-hands-on-deck situation. The hospital needed every trauma doctor that they could get. Dr. Stephen Wilhite, who was working at McKinsey Williamette Hospital in 1983,

had just gotten home from his shift. When he got the page that three children had been shot, he immediately went back to the hospital. He later told ABC News, I hit over 100 miles an hour coming down the freeway. Doctors and nurses rushed to save the children, but sadly, it was too late for Cheryl. By the time Diane made it to the hospital, she had been shot once in the lungs and once in the heart. It was clear that she was already dead. The hospital was small, and there were only a few people working in the ER that night

with two more grievously wounded children in front of them, they had to make the difficult decision not to focus all of their energy on Cheryl and she was pronounced dead. Staff at the hospital worked diligently to save Danny and Christy, who both did manage to survive. Christy's injuries, two shots to her chest, caused her to suffer a stroke, leaving her unable to walk and talk. Danny, who was shot once in the back, was paralyzed from the chest down. So, you know, one of the first thoughts that I had morph was you have these doctors who work very long hours. You know, we know that they do.

Now, most of them are compensated pretty well, but they work hard. They work long hours. Here you have an individual who probably got off of a long shift and had just gotten home when he gets a page that there's an emergency. And right away has to go back to the hospital. And I mean, there are other people who have jobs like that where they're kind of on call for long stretches or maybe all the time. But that's a tough situation.

You know what it's like at the end of a long shift. You can't wait to get home. You're tired. You need to relax. And, you know, here in this situation, there's no choice. We mentioned it, right? It was an all hands-on-deck situation. Yeah, and this is probably a emergency room doctor's worst nightmare having not one, not two,

but three kids showing up shot. And, you know, all hell's breaking lists. It's probably very chaotic and probably one of the most stressful situations. I imagine that doctors in an emergency room would be working under. Yeah, and then when you look at the outcome of this entire scenario, yes, they were able to save two of the three children, but even the two that survived. You know, Christy was unable to walk and talk and Danny was paralyzed from the chest down. So, I mean, just an absolutely brutal scenario when you weave in the fact that Cheryl was pronounced. downed dead at the hospital.

And this wasn't a case of a car accident or something along those lines. This is probably not something that those doctors are used to seeing multiple victims shot. So this is something that probably challenged them and their training and their skills. As frantically as the hospital staff worked to save the children, some of them still managed to observe that something was off about Diane's demeanor. Dr. Wilhite described ABC News that there was not one tier. He said, you know, she just asked, how is she doing? Not one emotional reaction.

Even worse, he remembered Diane mentioning her spoiled vacation and saying that the incident really ruined my new car. I got blood all over the back of it. Maybe most shocking was that before Christy was pronounced dead, Diane insisted that Christy was brain dead and told Dr. Wilhite, I want you to pull the plug. He refused her demand. What was also troubling to staff and later to police was that Diane, had received such a minimal injury while her children had all received such catastrophic wounds.

And you and I have talked about this before. How do you analyze what someone does in what is obviously a very harrowing situation? You know, here you have a mother who brings in three children who have been shot. you don't know how everyone is going to react in that situation. What I will say is what you don't expect is for a mother to be worried about a ruined vacation or her own children's blood to have messed up the back of her car. You don't expect that at all. And I can see why that would have stood out as being very odd to medical personnel. Yeah, it definitely raised some red flags, though. When you have three or four people

shot really bad and the ones basically has a superficial wound, you know, I think that would set off red flags, you know, with the hospital staff. Detectives questioned Diane about the events of that night. And she said that she and the kids had been up in the Marcola area visiting a friend of hers who owned a horse. When it got dark, they left and headed home. As she was driving, the children fell asleep. Cheryl in the front seat and Christy and Danny in the back. And she decided to stop off for what she called some sightseeing along the way. She turned off of Marcolla Road and onto old Mohawk Road, where a man stepped out of the darkness from the bushes on the side of the road. She stopped startled and he seemed to be flagging her down. According to ABC News, she stopped and asked

him what was going on. But all he said was, I want your car. You've got to be kidding. She responded, but the man pushed her and started shooting at the kids from just outside the driver's door. Diane thinking quickly, got his attention and pretended to throw the keys away from the car, hoping that the man would run after them since his main focus had been on carjacking her until he suddenly started shooting at the children. It didn't quite work. And according to Diane, the two began to struggle outside of the car as she tried to get back inside and he tried to stop her.

The man's gun went off during the scuffle and a bullet grazed Diane's left forearm. She jumped in the car and rushed to the hospital. Diane gave detectives the description of the shaggy-haired suspect. Authorities did release a sketch of the supposed suspect to the media, even though Lane County Sheriff's Office, Detective Doug Welch, knew things weren't adding up. Some people have commented that when they look at the sketch, which you can find online,

it resembles an angry male version of Diane. Detective Welch recounted to ABC News, we found that Diane Downs was emotionally flat, explaining there were all kinds of red flags that went off as we took her statement. There were plenty of inconsistencies and things that didn't make sense with her version of events because she kept giving them to anyone who would ask. Detective Welch said,

I have used the term verbal vomit when talking about Diane because she talked a lot, adding too much for her own good. Diane talked and talked and the more she said, the more suspicious things looked. Anne Bradley Yeager, who was a reporter for K-E-ZI in Oregon, told ABC News, the more she talked, and she talked a lot and frequently, the more she talked, the more things didn't make any sense. It was as if she thought that if she kept talking enough,

that you would believe her. Looking back, Dr. Wilhite, who treated the family at the hospital, saw things that didn't make sense or were very troubling. In the recovery room, Dr. Wilhite noticed something interesting about Christy's behavior. He told ABC News, when Diane showed up, Christy's pulse rate went up high, and you could see terror on her face. Instantly, he realized she was afraid of her mother. This is the person who's supposed to be on my side, and she's not. And Christy knew that.

Unfortunately, the stroke she had suffered left her unable to clearly communicate what exactly had happened and why she was afraid of her mom. And I want to go back to that term verbal vomit because I thought that was an interesting turn of phrase, but this notion or this scenario where a person just talks and talks and talks. It's almost as if they're throwing anything and everything out there hoping that something is going to land. right, hoping that someone is going to believe this story or that story or something that they come up with. We see it quite a lot. You know, often suspects are trying to work out of a jam.

They know they're in trouble. Okay, what can I say that is going to get me out of this? And most often than not, number one, it doesn't work. And I think number two, it just clearly shows to understand. investigators that there's some type of guilt there because they're changing stories. They're all over the place. And I think sometimes there's, you know, we see suspects or people in these cases that don't say anything and aren't talkative, but then you have the other people that just ramble on and throw out all kinds of details. And, you know, you have to wonder,

is it because they're very observant and they just take in all these details or are they just spinning lies and making stuff up, and I think that's a challenge for police to figure out which is which. Investigators worked to build their case against Diane without Christie being able to aid them. They concluded that Diane didn't rush to the hospital. Instead, she crept along, virtually at a snail's pace, just five miles an hour while her children were bleeding to death in the car. A witness named Joe Inman ended up stuck behind her for two minutes. In that time, they only drove about two-tenths of a mile. Finally, he passed the slow-moving Nissan pulsar Diane was driving. They were four and a half miles from the hospital at 10.15 p.m. But Diane wouldn't get there for

another half an hour. Police also felt that she may have used some of that time to dispose of the murder weapon. Blood evidence in the car literally painted a different picture of Cheryl's shooting than Diane described. There was no denying that whoever shot and killed Cheryl had not done so from outside of the car on the driver's side, as Diane stated. Blood spatter was found on the edge of the outside of the passenger side of the car. The front passenger door had to have been open when Cheryl was shot. Reconstructing the crime, investigators found that Cheryl had likely managed to open the door and had even made it out of the car, falling on to the road.

Diane, uninjured, easily made it over to the passenger. passenger side of the car where she shot Cheryl at point blank range before throwing her back onto the floor of the passenger seat. Diane also changed her story multiple times. At one point, she claimed that there were two gunmen and that they knew not only her name, but that she had a tattoo of a rose on her back. And another version was that she was dating an FBI agent. And she was supposed to meet someone on his behalf. It was some sort of cover up conspiracy,

she claimed. So we talked about, you know, how Diane had all of these different versions of events. And that never looks good. When you say that someone changed their story multiple times, there's one gunman,

there's two gunmen, there's this conspiracy involving an FBI agent that I'm dating. I mean, first of all, what FBI agent is going to have their girlfriend, a civilian, meet someone, you know, on their behalf as part of some whatever case? That's not going to happen. That's not how the FBI works.

And then you have all of the blood evidence. And I think that's what a lot of people just are unable to figure out ahead of time. They think they're covering their tracks, but that blood evidence, it really tells the story. And I think this is similar in some ways to the last case we covered when the details of the crime scene didn't align with the suspect's story. And I think we're seeing the same thing here. And I think that's when police have to trust the evidence, trust the clues and the details of the crime scene and see if it jives with what the person's saying. And in this case, in Diane's case, it clearly didn't seem to do that. So I think they knew they were on the right track that she had something to do with us.

In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do but had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Authorities slowly and methodically built their case against Diane. And on February 28, 1984, several months after the shooting, Diane Downs was arrested. During those months, Christie had been working hard to relearn how to speak, and investigators had just been waiting for the day when she would talk. They hoped she could finally show. share with them what happened. Her version of the night she was shot starts out the same as Diane's. She said they went to a family friend's house to pet the horse, and when it was dark, they left. When the car stopped, it wasn't because someone was in the road. It was because Diane pulled over

unexpectedly. She pulled the lever that opens the trunk, then got out of the car and calmly walked to the back of the car. When she walked back up to the driver's door, she knelt down and shot Cheryl. She then leaned into the back seat and shot Danny. Finally, she shot. She shot. She shot. She shot. Christy twice. And you can talk all you want about, you know, a person's story not adding up to investigators. You can talk about the blood evidence, not matching that person's story. But when you have someone's own daughter finally tell police that, no, it was my mom who shot not only me, but my other two siblings as well. I mean, how powerful is that?

It's got to be pretty damning for the victim to be there to tell her story. And she's not pointing to some strange man on the side of the road. She's pointing directly to her own mom. That's crazy. The murder weapon, a 22 caliber pistol was never found. Unfortunately, the nearby river was moving quickly at the time. And despite dives, nothing turned up. multiple 22 caliber cartridges were found in a rifle in Diane's home and those were discovered to have tool marks that matched the murder weapon.

As if they had been cycled through the pistol before being loaded into the rifle, Diane claims she never owned a 22 caliber handgun. But her ex-husband, Steve Downs, told detectives that he remembered her having one. On May 8, 1984, the trial began. In the time since the shooting, news of the shocking crime and pending trial spread like wildfire, and people both near and far were trying to see how to get a spot to witness the trial. This was 36-year-old Lane County Circuit Court Judge Greg Foote's first murder trial. For 31 days, a jury of nine women and three men heard the evidence the state of Oregon presented against Diane Downs, who was pregnant during the proceedings.

She told the judge, I'm afraid of going into labor before the trial is over. It was clear to investigators that this pregnancy was a ploy for attention and sympathy from the jury, and they were afraid it might work. Prosecutors had to explain why someone who looked happy to be pregnant again would have tried to get rid of her three children in such a violent way. What could possibly be the motive for such a terrible crime? Mom simply didn't kill their children in cold blood, did they?

Of course, this was well before cases like Susan Smith and Andrea Yates, So we know that this does happen. Diane had written a bunch of letters in her journal to Robert Knickerbocker, a former coworker of hers at the post office in Chandler, Arizona. She never wound up sending these letters to him. The two had a romantic relationship that he called on again off again, despite the fact that Nickerbocker was married to another woman named Charlene. After Diane moved to Springfield, Oregon, where her father was,

was the postmaster. She was still enamored with Knickerbocker and hoped he would leave Charlene in Arizona and move up to Oregon to be with her. It was clear that he considered them to be in their off again phase, which hurt Diane. One of the letters dated April 21st, 1983, read, I still think of you as my best friend and lover. And you keep telling me to go away and find someone else. On April 29th, she wrote, It doesn't matter what Charlene says. I'm a little sad that she has convinced you that the kids would be a burden because I know it wouldn't be true. It seemed that Diane thought that the only reason she and Knickerbocker weren't together is because his wife had convinced him that he would have to take care of Diane's children,

which he didn't want to do. Many of the letters tried to convince him that he wouldn't have to. She wrote, you know, I don't want a daddy for my kids. You would never be left alone with them. On May 11, Diane wrote, I have three beautiful children that I love more than anyone else. I think I love them even more than you now, which brought in a question just how much she cared about her children. Diane, who testified in her own defense, tried to downplay the significance of what she wrote in those letters, asking the jury. If I loved him as much as I said in those letters, wouldn't I have sent them?

The last letter of journal entry she wrote was on May 17th. Two days before the shooting, Nickerbocker testified at trial, making it clear that he didn't have anything to do with Diane's decision, telling the jury, I have nothing against children. I just don't want any of my own. Like Diane's ex-husband, Steve Downs, Knickerbocker also knew that Diane had a gun. He saw it in her trunk the night before she moved from Arizona to Oregon.

So I just want to dive into this kind of love triangle. a little bit, and you'd have to call it that. You know, obviously these two people were having an affair. Robert was married. I think what's clear to me from these letters is that Diane viewed this relationship much more seriously than Robert did. I don't think there were any signs that he was about ready to, you know, leave his wife to be with Diane, but the one part that really struck me was when she wrote that she thought she loved

her children even more than she loved Robert Knickerbocker. That just really jumped out at me as being so bizarre. You think you do. How could you not? This is a fling that you're having with this married man. and you're still trying to figure out if you love him or your three children more. And then, you know, the other thing to me is really this kind of notion that she wants to be with him. She wants him to leave his wife and move to Oregon.

And she's trying to convince him that the children won't be an issue. Well, that really stands out. when you factor in what ultimately happens to her three children. And I also think the timing of these letters leading right up to the shooting, you know, it's hard to dismiss it. It's hard to not notice that. And I think it shows that the motive could be she couldn't be with this guy that she wanted to be with.

And he's basically telling her to hit the highway. And she seems to be looking at her. kids as what stood in the way of this relationship happening. So I think I think that had to be pretty powerful for the jury to see that. District attorney Fred Hugie asked Christy to tell the jury who shot her that night if she could remember. Christy, who was just eight years old, firmly answered my mom. He also asked her, Christy, do you still love your mom? Like so many children who have been harmed by one of her parents, her answer was yes.

And I think this is just one part of what makes cases like these so heartbreaking and baffling. Children in many instances where they're harmed or mistreated by a parent still feel that love for them. As for how Diane felt about Christy, she testified that Christy was her first good friend, saying Christy was the first person. that really, really just plain loved me. In a later interview with ABC News, Diane said, you can't replace children, but you can replace the effect they give you.

And they give me love, they give me satisfaction, they give me stability, they give me a reason to live and a reason to be happy, and that's gone. They took it from me, but children are so easy to concede. And I don't think it's, hard to see why so many people hated Diane Downs.

And we haven't even talked about the outcome of the trial yet, but just listen to the words that are coming out of her mouth. I've never met this woman. I don't know this woman. I don't like this woman. I think her saying children are so easy to conceive, it almost sounds like she's saying they can be replaced. So, you know, that's very telling of her, I think. The defense team faced an uphill battle, given the facts and evidence of the case,

and due to Christie's testimony. They countered that Christy was mistaken due to her injuries and the trauma she suffered. But the defense argument seemed pretty weak. Perhaps what sealed the deal for the jury was when the Duran Duran song, Hungry Like the Wolf, was played in court. The song was playing when Diane was driving that night and was supposedly the soundtrack to their tempted carjacking. Diane tapped her foot and bobbed her head along with the music, a scene that was recreated in the 1989 Farah Fawcett movie based on this case, small sacrifices. It was played in court because it proved that Diane never stopped the car and turned it off to pretend to throw the keys. If the keys weren't in the ignition,

the radio wouldn't have worked. In June 1984, after 36 total hours of deliberation, the jury found Diane guilty of the murder of her daughter Cheryl and the attempted murder of Christy and Danny. Juror Robert Cochram stressed how important getting the verdict right was to the jury in a UPI.com news article. He said, we were going to stay there until we were sure in our minds. If it took us until July or even Christmas, we still would have been there. Another juror, David Brewer, said, we felt a train. tremendous weight lifted from our shoulders. It was a long, tough decision that we agonized over. Ten days after her trial was over, but before her sentence was finalized, Diane gave birth to a baby

girl. Amy Elizabeth, as Diane called her, the baby was taken into state custody and adopted out. Her name was changed to Rebecca. Diane Downs was sentenced to life in prison plus an additional 50 years. The verdict in sentencing was all anyone was talking about for weeks, was some people surprised by the outcome, and others feeling that Diane got off too lightly. And I think in this case, that sentence is pretty steep, but in a lot of people's minds, anyone that harms children, multiple children, let alone their own children, there's probably no penalty, no sentence that's strong enough for a lot of people in that. situation. So I can understand why so many people were disgusted and didn't think that this sentence was even fair. Yeah, I get that. I mean, this crime was so horrifying. And then on top of that, you have the fact that it was committed by, you know, the mother. But in any case, people are going to differ on what they believe, especially when it comes to sentencing, right? Is it too light?

Is it not harsh enough? Okay. That part can be debated. But what I will say is life in prison plus 50. That's no joke. But to your point, Morf, is there really a sentence stiff enough, harsh enough to correlate with a mom killing one child and trying to kill her other two? And for a lot of people, there just really is it.

Yeah, I think, you know, the people that harm kids and especially their own kids are just held in the lowest regards and people don't have much sympathy for them. Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset. This season let therapy be part of your spring cleaning. Clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness, and building something better. Grow therapy helps you get there. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 15th,

grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session.

Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid, in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0.00 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash book now to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash book now. Growtherapy.com slash book now.

Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. District attorney Fred Hugie and his wife adopted both Christy and Danny, who have led very private lives since being thrust into the spotlight during the trial. Diane was shipped at the Salem, Oregon Women's Correctional Center to serve out her sentence. But in 1987, Diane escaped. escaped from prison by climbing the 18-foot fence surrounding the yard and used clothes to cover the razor wire so it didn't cut her. She then spent nearly two weeks on the run. These 10 days must have been harrowing for the Babcock's who had adopted baby Rebecca. They were just 100 miles away in Bend, Oregon.

Jackie Babcock, Rebecca's adoptive mother, told ABC News, we didn't know what Diane Downs would do. The precautions that we took were to let people know that were coming in contact with Becky, her date, care person, her babysitter, for Becky's own safety. Though it was supposed to be a closely guarded secret that Rebecca was actually the daughter of convicted child killer Diane Downs, there was no way to alert people to the potential danger without explaining who Diane was and how she was related to Becky. Diane was eventually found hiding in the home of a fellow inmate's husband and was taken into custody without incident and sent back to prison. This is like something out of a movie. You know, this woman was able to have to have.

a plan and actually make it work. And to be out for 10 days, it's not all that long, but it's not a short time either. And, you know, she didn't hurt anybody that we know of, but what she did was scare the Babcocks for sure, but also kind of outed this secret. I think they most likely planned to shield Rebecca from the fact. that her mother was this convicted child killer, well, that kind of goes out the window after she escapes because then it's all about just, you know, the protection of Rebecca and the secret has to be revealed in order to make sure that happens. I think they wanted to keep the privacy, but at the same time, it's hard to do that and keep that under reps when people need to know

who's potentially a risk to Becky. Yeah, absolutely. Prison authorities looked into how Diane was able to escape. Wayne Sefer and his wife, who was also serving time at Oregon Women's Correctional Center with Diane, were separated. But that didn't stop her from making a map for Diane with directions, from the prison to Sefer's home just blocks away.

Wayne recalled the ABC News, being hung over when a roommate came to tell him that someone wanted to talk to him. It was Diane, asking if she could stay at his house. Why not? He said before going back to sleep, Wayne said the next time he saw Diane, she was naked. And that was enough for him. He added, I should have turned her in, but I didn't. At the time, he was struggling with an addiction to heroin.

Yeah. So I think what he was basically trying to say was that he, once he saw her naked, he were all caution to the wind and any sensibilities he had went out the window. Yeah, I think he's saying that, but then he's also adding that, you know, he was struggling with an addiction to heroin. So was he making all the best decisions at that point in his life? Probably not. Former Oregon state police detective Lauren, Larry Glover, was the one to find the map in Diane's cell.

There was a blank pad of stationary, but Glover noticed some indentations on it. She had taken the map with her, but left a very slight copy behind. He recognized it as a map, and the FBI was able to enhance it by making a photostatic copy. Soon, authorities surrounded the Sefer's home. According to Wayne Seifer, Diane was going to use one of his BB guns to force the police to shoot her and take her life, but he talked her out of it. Diane received another five years for the escape. Sefer pleaded guilty to hindering prosecution and received just five years of probation and six months in a restitution center. In 1989, when Diane was 33 years old, she tried to escape from a prison in New Jersey where she had been transferred.

Her boyfriend at the time, 26-year-old Robert Seaver, confessed the planning to help her and passed a polygraph regarding his admission. He testified against her, giving information about the escape plans in 1990. In 1991, she tried to escape again. Though she denied planning to escape, she admitted that she and Robert Seaver had talked about her trying to become pregnant during visits through a primitive artificial insemination method, according to the Oregonian. Apparently, Diane wanted to become pregnant yet again and had tried to convince Severe, to bring her a plastic bag full of semen that he kept warm under his armpit.

He didn't do it. Yeah, I'll tell you more of, I mean, Diane Downs had schemes on top of schemes and plans. I mean, a lot of them centered around trying to escape. I get that. Nobody wants to spend the rest of their life in prison. You know, one of the things that always fascinates me is how. some of these people are able to get, you know, boyfriends, girlfriends on the outside. Why so many people would want to date someone who's going to be in prison for the rest of their life?

That's kind of hard for me to understand. What's even harder for me to understand is how a man could want to date a woman like Diane Downs who was convicted of doing the horrible things she did. Why would you even want to be associated with that person in any way, let alone try to help her escape or try to help her get pregnant by bringing a bag of semen into the prison under your armpit? And would that even work? I always thought that semen didn't live long, but I'm not a physician. I'm not an expert. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I've heard of different instances where somebody tries to use a turkey baster to administer semen maybe in the hopes of getting pregnant, something along those lines. But, you know, the packet under the armpit is something I've never heard of. But then again, you know, I look at anybody that does something so despicable and shocking as murdering her own children, it doesn't surprise me at all that she would be willing. to try something like this. There's probably nothing that she won't try. No, it never surprises me what the people in prison do. It surprises me that there are people on the outside willing to go along with them. That's the part that really kind of throws me. In 1993, Diana transferred to Valley State Prison for Women in Chowchilla, California. In 1994, she tried to escape yet again. She had chipped away

eight inches of the concrete surrounding the window of her cell, trying to loosen the barred window from its frame. But that escape attempt was thwarted. Well, in prison, Diane earned an associate's degree in general studies, and she kept herself behind bars staying relatively quiet. Yeah, she kept relatively quiet trying to think of another way to escape. I mean, this woman's like Andy Defraim and Shawshake Redemption. I mean, she is just civil. She is. around trying to figure out how to escape from prison. Around the year 2001, when Rebecca, the child that Diane gave birth to after being convicted of murder, was around 16 years old.

She learned the truth about her birth mother. Her adoption had never been a secret, but it wasn't until she watched the movie Small Sacrifices, starring Farrah Fawcett, that she recognized the name and realized who her mother was. According to Glamour.com, she had asked about her birth parents before in the past, but she had only been told that her birth mother did something really bad, that they would talk about someday when Becky was older. Jackie Babcock said, I didn't give her any details as to why. That's too much for an eight-year-old to take on. Rebecca said after finding out who her birth mother was, I thought maybe she stole a car. I never.

imagine she'd be a murderer. This realization caused issues. She had already been struggling with her feelings, sneaking out, experimenting with drugs, alcohol, and dating older men. Learning the truth about her background, her DNA, created a rift between herself and her adoptive parents. Rebecca said, I couldn't accept that my parents loved me enough to raise me as their own, not caring what a monster I came from. So I want to go back to that statement by Jackie Babcock. as to why, you know, she didn't give Rebecca details. That's too much for an eight-year-old to take on. And I absolutely agree with that.

But it sounds like it wasn't all that easy for her, you know, even as a 16-year-old. 16's a tough time for kids anyway. And so to kind of learn this bombshell, I can imagine. It's only going to exacerbate any issues that you're already having. and most likely create some new ones. Yeah, I think it's only natural. The kids that are adopted want to find out where they came from and who their family is and a little bit about themselves.

But as the adopted parents, how do you break the news to them that this is the monster you've come from and you probably want to wait for the right time to where they're mature enough, to where they can take that all in and deal with that information? So, you know, I can't blame her adopt. adopted parents for trying to put that off as long as they could. No, me neither.

I think they did the right thing. In 2002, Rebecca gave birth to her own child, a son Christian. In 2006, she had another son, who she placed into an adoptive family. She told Glamour magazine, I thought that since I was adopted, it wouldn't be so hard for me to put my son up for adoption. But afterward, I was completely lost. She seems to have a little bit of empathy for her biological mother. That pain, she said, made me think about Diane.

I knew the hurt I felt. And I wondered if she felt it too. She decided to write to Diane in prison. She soon got one reply and then another. The first reply was normal. Diane sounded very excited to have heard from Rebecca. She wanted to know about her things like her eye color, things about her life, like whether she grew up with any siblings or not.

In the next letter signed, Forever Your Mom. Diane claimed that the real killer was still out there and included strange things like someone very powerful has been watching over you all your life for me. More letters came and each one was more odd than the last. Until finally, Rebecca wrote Diane one final time to ask her to stop writing to her. Diane wrote back to her stating, you are a piece of work, Rebecca, and she warned her

that one day her son Christian would be a murderer. Rebecca regretted ever making contact with her birth mother, Diane. I mean, I'll tell you more of this Diane Downs is a real piece of work. Murdered one child, tried to murder her other two. You would think that the years in prison would have, you know, given her time to reflect on what she had done, given her some perspective. And then finally, her daughter reaches out to her and kind of wants to form a relationship. And what does Diane Downs do? She starts lying to her. And then, you know, at one point says that her son's going to turn out to be a murderer.

This lady's in line. for the worst mother of all time. And she's on a very short list. It's pretty clear who she is is coming through in these letters that she shared with Rebecca. And I think Rebecca over time saw that person who her birth mother was and just said, you know, I've had enough of this. This is not healthy. I don't want to have any more interactions with her.

And Diane wanted to take one final jab at her. it sounds like to hurt and it's not surprising. No, that doesn't surprise me either. You know, the one thing that we haven't touched on yet about Diane Downs, and there really wasn't much there in the research, is the state of her mental health or, you know, what was the state of her mental health back then throughout the years? It almost makes you wonder whether she was experiencing some type of mental health issues. In 2008, when Diane was 53, the parole board denied her petition for parole.

On the questionnaire they give inmates, Diane still refused to take responsibility for the crime, let alone show any remorse. She wrote, I realize this questionnaire is a tactful way of asking if I accept responsibility for the death of my daughter, and I'm not trying to make this any harder on you than you were being on me. It's just that I did not shoot my children, and I can't say I did. her reply completely sunk her slim chance of parole. She tried to spin her 1987 escape as a good sign for her rehabilitation, writing, I'm not ashamed of my escape.

At least I don't want to be here and will do everything I need to do so I don't come back. She also bragged about having not been violent behind bars, writing, I have not cracked one of these ladies in the head, something she called an accomplishment. Yeah, I don't know, man. It almost seems like there's some delusion here. on the part of Diane Downs. I mean, first off, she won't admit to what she's done. And a lot of people won't.

And I think for the most part, that does not help your chances of getting paroled. But to kind of list your accomplishments as these escape attempts, meaning that you'll do everything to stay out of prison. that doesn't make sense. And then saying, you know what, I haven't beaten anybody up. I haven't cracked the skulls of any of the people in here. I just don't see how she could have thought any of this was winning over the parole bowl. In 2010, they denied Diane's parole a second time. She seems to have moved on from her crime entirely saying all the gut-wrenching

pain I experienced back then is gone. It's history. That same year, Rebecca, the daughter Diane, hadn't seen since giving birth to her, made the dean's list and was determined to go to medical school. All of Diane's children seemed to do well without her. Even though he was left paralyzed by her attack, her son Dan was apparently on the swim team of his high school. And Christy has started the family of her own. There are reports that she named. She named, her second child a daughter after her late sister Cheryl. In 2021, Diane Downs was denied parole a third time. She's now 68 years old.

The early she can possibly be paroled is 2025. Unless she has a major change of heart and has done some real work on herself by then, it seems very likely that parole will be denied again. She's probably not going anywhere unless she escapes again. And I often think about what it's like. to be on a parole board and review the case of someone like Diane Downs. Probably not all that hard when she continues to deny her involvement, continues to kind of spin yarns and different stories about what happened.

But let's say she did admit it and she showed remorse and she worked on herself and could show those improvements, I still think it would be extremely difficult for me. As a parole board member to say, yeah, you know what? I think it's time. I think we can let you back out into society. I would just struggle so much with the concern that

once she's back out on the outside, who is she going to hurt next? And I'm going to have to live with that. And I'm sure that's something that a lot of parole board members struggle with. And I think part of it is probably just formality. They have to do this process. But I think realistically, there's not much of a chance that the parole board was ever going to say, yes, let's let this woman out on the streets again because it's clear that she's not

sorry for what she did. She never accepted responsibility. so there's just no real way that she's ever getting out on the street again. No, not if she continues as she has. I think that's a pretty easy decision for the parole board. And I agree with you. It's really nothing more than a formality. They have to go through the process.

And I'm fine with that. I'm fine with a person like Diane Downs spending the rest of her life in prison. I got no issues with that. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I think anyone that could commit such a terrible crime, harm multiple children like this, especially let alone her own children. I mean, what else would they do? If they can do this to their own children, is there anything they won't do?

Well, and you and I have talked about this before. There are lines that we don't cross. Well, why don't we cross them? and there are a number of reasons. I think one is none of us want to go to prison. None of us want to lose our freedom. But maybe even more than that, we know that it's wrong.

It's reprehensible. In this case, everyone listening, I'm sure is like, how could I ever make the decision to harm my children like this? I mean, I would give up, up my life to protect my children. And I'm sure that's what most people are thinking.

The last thing in the world I would ever do is intentionally harm them. But we know that's not the way that Diane Downs thought. And, you know, I go back to the reasoning, the motive. if it really was all about trying to convince this man that they could start a life together in the Pacific Northwest, he could leave his wife because her children would no longer be around. Doesn't that just add kind of another sickening aspect to the story? Yeah, it's just reprehensible. everything that she's done along the way here. There's just, to me, there's just nothing redeeming about her.

Well, and that's why she's so widely hated and for good reason. But that's it for our episode on Diane Downs. If you love the show, but you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, give us a five-star rating. You can leave a review. Also, keep telling your friends about the criminology podcast, that word of mouth, really helps us out. If you want to find us on social media, we're on X with the handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash criminology podcast. And you can join our Facebook discussion group, criminology podcast discussion and fans.

So that's it for another episode of criminology, but Morp and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then for Mike and Morp. We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.