Criminology - Interview with The Golden State Killer's Former Brother-in-Law

Episode Date: July 4, 2020

In this special episode, we're bringing you an interview with James Huddle. Huddle is the former brother-in-law of The Golden State Killer, Joseph DeAngelo. James Huddle was part of DeAngelo's extended family for many years. He discusses some of the things that he has analyzed over the past couple of years after learning that DeAngelo was arrested for his crimes. Things that happened many years ago now have a new meaning. He also gives his thoughts on DeAngelo recently pleading guilty. You can support the show at patreon.com/criminology   An Emash Digital Production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 118 of the Criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Mr. Morford, what is going on with you? Not much. Just getting a little bit of work done, relaxing. I just watched my first all-new episode of Unsolved Mysteries on Netflix, so I was excited for that. It's funny. I actually saw that pop up.

didn't realize that they were all new episodes. I just thought they were saying, hey, we've got unsolved mysteries, but that's really cool. Yeah, it's a reboot and it's a little bit different, but right out of the gate, the first mystery is pretty intense. So I think people are going to like it. Well, I know you and I have talked about that show in the past. I mean, it's one of those that kind of, I don't want to say kickstarted, but really propelled a lot of people's fascination with, you know, mysteries, but really true crime. Yeah, I think people now that even if they're younger, I think they're going back and watching it because there's just a lot of fascinating

mysteries they covered. Morph, let's give some Patreon supporter shoutouts. We had some new support from Selena Sanborn, Tamara Hawthorne, Pamela Randall, Ashley Zierly, Robin Anderson, and Kara. So, you know, from week to week, we continue to experience some great support, new support, and then on top of that, we have our supporters that stay with us. So, you know, all that is amazing. Yeah, for the new supporters and the long time supporters, we can't thank you enough. If anyone out there is considering supporting

criminology on Patreon, you can do so by visiting patreon.com slash criminology. All right. So we've got to jump right in. And more if we have something very, very different in store for everybody in this episode. So more if I think, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but in the history of the criminology podcast, I think one of the things that we're most proud of is our second season on the Golden State Killer. It was a marathon.

I don't even remember the number of episodes. I want to say it was 15, 16, something like that. There's so much information. packed into that second season. And people can find it on Stitcher Premium. It's out there. But there's a lot of renewed interest, right, in the Golden State Killer case. As we were doing that season, right in the middle of it, Joseph J. DeAngelo was arrested. And for, you know, just over two years, we've been kind of waiting. Everybody's been waiting to see what's going to happen and it finally happened, right? DeAngelo pled guilty. And I know you've been

really watching it closely. So if you want to talk about that, go ahead. Yeah. So we wondered for the past two years what was going to happen. Was he going to play this thing out and delay it and put it off and wait for trial and put all the victims and survivors through that? And hell and sort of out of the blue. There's a little bit of discussion about it, but it came to fruition that he took a plea deal and he essentially pled guilty to all 13 murders he was charged with. He also pled guilty. Well, he didn't plead guilty. He technically said he admitted to a attempted murder charge against Officer McGowan and Vysalia from the Vice tell you ransacker crimes.

And all of the victims from all of his attacks, even though the statute of limitations had run out, he still admitted to all of them. And it was very satisfying. That's the only word I could use satisfying to hear him say over and over, guilty and I admit. He said that I don't know how many times. and many of the victims and survivors that he attacked were in that courtroom facing him face to face. So it was really powerful moment to see him face the music for all the horrible things he did.

So in some of the cases, they were pretty crafty and they were able to charge him with kidnapping, simply by moving a person from room to room in their house without their permission or moving them outside of their house. So there were kidnapping charges, although some of the rape charges themselves, couldn't be prosecuted. They still charged him with all of these other things that they could. And then there was using a gun during a robbery, using a gun during a rape, which was ironic because you couldn't charge for the rape, but they were still using the gun for purposes of rape. So all of these things, they just sort of stacked on top of each other. And I want to say there was 88 different charges,

and it was just so much against him that he just admitted. I think he finally realized, hey, let me just move on. I'm not getting out of this. And thankfully, he did say guilty and admitted to all of those things. things. Yeah, and I don't want to give this guy any credit in any way. Definitely not, but he could have taken this in a much different direction, right? As you said, he could have drawn this out. He could have engaged in a prolonged trial, however long that would have lasted. The other thing is, he technically did not even have to admit the rapes at all, right? The ones where the, you know,

where the statute of limitations had run out. I agree with that. I don't want to give any kind of credit either. I'm a little bit surprised. I thought that he would, as I mentioned, drag it out. And what was on the table for him, if he was found guilty, obviously, is the death penalty. But in California, there's currently a moratorium on the death penalty.

Not to mention he's 74 years old. So would he have ever been put to death? I think he probably wouldn't have been. So he could have just sat back and said, I'll delay this as long as I can and I'll just die of natural causes before this ever finishes out, which in that case, and I'm not an attorney, I know we have plenty of attorneys and stuff that listen to us.

I think if you die before you're found guilty in a court of law, that none of that stuff would apply. But I remember hearing in the Aaron Hernandez case, for example, that since he wasn't found guilty for some of those crimes that he committed before he died before that and some of those charges had to go away. So I'd like to hear maybe from some of our listeners that can shed a little bit more light on that end of it. Yeah, there definitely is something to that. I don't know if it varies by state or if it's the same across the country. But I think a lot of people were shocked. I know I was because I really thought, you know, no. No.

knowing everything that we knew about, or at least who we thought this person was and what they had done, you know, back years ago, I thought that there would be games played. I thought there would be, you know, I'm going to stick it to you and I'm going to drag this out as long as I can. And it just didn't happen. Yeah. And I was a little bit upset that part of it wasn't that he had to explain. how he did, what he did, when he did, and how he got away with it. I wanted some kind of explanation so that people could maybe learn from all of his crimes to stop future predators like him, so they'd have an insight into how he was able to get away with it. So that part of it, I don't think we're ever going to truly know, which is disappointing, but the outcome that we have of him just saying guilty, and I admit, is pretty satisfying. and he'll be officially sentenced in August is when the actual sentencing is,

and there's going to be some victim statements. I don't know if they're going to be public or not, but they get to speak their mind and what they're thinking about in relation to that sentencing. One interesting thing was he did admit, although he wasn't charged with the attempted murder of Officer McGowan and Vysalia, but there were a couple other ones that I was surprised. weren't brought up as being some of the things that he admitted to. For one was Rodney Miller,

who we talked about in our Golden State killer coverage. He was the young man that chased the Easterer rapist over the fence, and he almost caught him. And DiAngelo, the Easterer rapist, turned around and actually shot at him and hit him in the stomach. And he was hurt pretty bad. He almost died. And he was not part of the court proceedings. because they didn't mention his name. And then also someone else we talked about in our coverage was Harvey Rare, who was the man who went out into his garage and was beaten half the death by DeAngelo when he caught him in his garage.

And he had to crawl under the car to get away from him to stop from dying. He was beaten so badly. He's another one. I was surprised. He wasn't one of the attempted murders that DeAngela admitted to. And I don't have any clear answers as to why they weren't included. What worries me, is there more victims out there both rape-wise and murder-wise? Because there could be other people that he just is connected to that they haven't connected the dots yet.

I know rape is a very under-reported crime. So if there are 50 reported rapes, then you can bet that there's a good chance there's a lot of unreported ones. then I feel like he should have been accountable for those as well. Oh, I guarantee it. I guarantee that there are a lot more crimes that he committed that we will probably never know about. I go back to the one thing that you said, right? I mean, I do think him pleading guilty is good for the survivors and all of that.

But what we do lose is some of the details. And like you said, there are some details that people could learn from. So that's one of the pieces that we lose out on. But I will be interested in hopefully being able to hear some of the survivor impact statements, because I have to imagine more if those are going to be extremely powerful. Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what they say too in some of the statements, if we can hear them. But what I did see in court was also interesting because DeAngelo won no part. part of looking these survivors in the eye. I know Jane, Carson Sandler, who we had on in season

two, she was one of the early victims. She was feet away from him, and as they wheeled him out in his wheelchair, she reached over as far as she could and leaned into him and was probably within three feet of them, four feet of them. And she said, I hope you rot in hell. And he didn't look up didn't even look in her direction. He was pretty intimidated. And there was one pretty light moment where the court erupted into applause and laughter. One of the people up there talking for the prosecution made a statement pretty early on that Jane described her rapist as having a very, very small penis, something that was described by many. of the victims, and she turned and looked at him and just started, almost busted out laughing.

And the crowd just went crazy in the courtroom. And there was cheering and laughter and just a real light moment just to take a little jab at him. But he, he didn't, you know, he just shrunk down in that chair and just, like, he didn't want to be there. It was, but it was, it was satisfying to watch all of this come to fruition. Well, that is something that we talked about in season two. I mean, that is a characteristic of this man that many of the women talked about.

And I think you and I probably poked fun at this guy in season two as well. I can't remember. But as far as him not wanting to face his victims, it doesn't surprise me at all. The guy's a chicken, plain and simple. His ultimate coward. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So why are we saying all of this?

Well, first of all, we know a lot of people, and especially our fans, are very interested in, you know, the Golden State Killer case and what's going on. So we did want to give an update. But secondly, Morf, and I have to give all credit to you, Morf, was able to score an interview with Joseph J. DeAngelo's brother-in-law or former brother-in-law. this is a man named James Huddle and I don't know how you did it more but again all credit to you being able to convince this guy to sit down with you and talk and he has a lot of interesting things to say I think a lot of people for the last two years since this arrest happened have asked what about his family what do they think did they know anything could they have stopped anything that he did, would they have come forward if they knew?

There's just this thirst to know or hunger to know, whatever analogy you want to use, what they have to say. And it's pretty much known that Joseph DeAngela's wife, who's now technically is ex-wife Sharon, is not speaking, which is her right. She's obviously been hit by a bombshell. and her and her daughters have chosen to stay silent for now. Maybe one day they will come out and talk more. And one of the things that his brother-in-law, Jim, wanted to do,

was get things off his chest and say, look, I don't know if any of this stuff is going to help the victims or the police or just whoever, but I want to put it out there. Anything I can share, anything I can think of, I want to put it out there. And he did that in the form of a book. It's a book called Killers Keep Secrets, The Golden State Killer's Other Life. And he details things that at the time didn't seem that big a deal.

Some of them looking back, he questions and just some general interactions that sort of come back to haunt him all these years later after the rest has been made. And he wonders, in some ways, could he have done anything? could you have done anything different, would it have affected the outcome? So these are some of the things we talk about, and some of the stuff is pretty eye-opening. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door, and there's blood in the foyer.

For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio. in 2020. Blood and water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. If you love chilling mysteries, unsolved cases,

and a touch of mom-style humor, moms and mysteries is the podcast you've been searching for. Hey guys, I'm Mandy. And I'm Melissa. Join us every Tuesday for moms and mysteries, your gateway to gripping, well-researched true crime stories.

Each week, we deep dive into a variety of mind-boggling cases as we shed light on everything from heist to who-done-it. where you're your go-to podcast for Mysteries with a Motherly Touch. Subscribe now to Moms and Mysteries wherever you get your podcast. All right, Morph, that's enough of you and I talking. We want everyone to hear this interview.

So here it is. With us today is James Huddle, and he has a new book out. And it's called Killers Keep Secrets, the Golden State Killer's Other Life. And Mr. Huddle happens to be the brother-in-law of James, DiAngelo. Hi, Jim. It's good to talk to you. Hello. Hi, Mike. I'm Morris. I guess if you would, you know, with a big, overwhelming thing like this has been, I'm sure it's been a whirlwind for you. The first question, the obvious one that I have for you is April 2018, you awake to news that the infamous East Area Rapist Golden State Killer was arrested, and his name is Joseph James DeAngelo, your brother-in-law.

what's the first thing that went through your mind well it was it was a phone call from a new york reporter how i got the news and the first thing was the shock of of uh the eastern i didn't know when he said killer after he told me the name of joe and i see yeah i know joe and then he told me killer i'm going like what but i mean i didn't know what he's talking about golden state killer and then the next thing that he says well what about the East area rapists? Well, that keyed me up because I grew up in the East area of Sacramento, and I had, at the time, been afraid of what was going on,

just like all the other young couples, because I was, you know, newly married with one daughter when he did his, you know, his crime spree there. So, yeah, that was like, wait a minute, this is a, this is crazy. I mean, that was Joe, you know? So the first thing I thought was, I'm going to have, I told the guy, I got to go. I got to process this because it was so shocking. And then the fact that he mentioned the word murder.

So, you know what I mean? When he said original nightstock, I said, well, I thought that was Richard Murmere. I was confused because I had no idea what was going on. So, yeah, that was the shock. It was a total shock. Like, Joe, it's like, I. I never thought it was him. You know what I mean?

He was a cop, and he was my brother-in-law. So it was quite confusing at first. And I think you probably, along with a lot of other Sacramento people, had all heard of the Sacramento East Area Rapist, what a lot of people from Sacramento were not aware, didn't know that he went down to Southern California and then started committing murders and more crimes down there. So I think you were probably in that same boat

as a lot of people that just didn't know. that he had moved south. Exactly. No, I was totally unaware. I knew that in the, it was about 80, 81, somewhere in there. They had gone down there for her job, Sharon, my sister.

And so, you know, he was going there. And I think they may have had two places. Because I think he bought that house. They bought the house in 81, and they were, she was down there until like 86. So for five years there, you know, there was two places that he could commute to Southern Cal on the weekends or vice versa. You know, so the house they bought, I think the reason they bought that house after they sold the one in Auburn because he lost his job with Auburn PD. You know, I think the reason they bought the house because of those days, people don't realize houses were doubling in four years in price.

So if you sold, you had to buy right away, or you're going to be out of the market, unless you got a lot of money. So I did the same thing. In 78, I sold my home that I had for four years for exactly twice of what I paid, had purchased a home for like a thousand more than I sold the other one in Lodi, California. So I went down there because I had a job in Stockton. And I think That's been one of the many questions There's a million questions with this case But one of them has always been

The living arrangements Between your brother-in-law and your sister Do you know if they lived When they started living separately? Well, yeah, that would have been like 91 I think it was the separation time frame I'm not positive no But I remember she got a house in Roseville, and it was really, I mean, literally a mile from the old house, mile and a half, something like that.

He could walk it, you know. I don't think it was more than a mile. Okay. And one thing you just mentioned, I just wanted to go back to it real quick. You mentioned when he lost his job and they had a move. Was that after being fired for the dog repellent? Is that what you're referring to? And did you know about that?

Well, I heard about the firing. not what had happened, but at one point, the family informed me that Joe is no longer an Auburn police officer, but see, at 78, or it happened in 79, but I had moved in 78, the fall of 78, to Lodi, California, and the family's all in Sacramento. Now, it's not a big drive, it's an hour, but, or less, depending where you are, but probably an hour from Citrus Heights.

So that was me not being close and having a family my own and work, So we saw each other on the weekends if I came to town. And then I would meet them or see them over at mom and dads or maybe, you know, so it was more sporadic. And then I had learned about his firing. And so, but I was there until divorce in 81 or 82, I purchased a home or my folks and I did in the Sacramento area. But, and I moved back because she kept the house, my ex.

So I was only there for from 78 to 81 or two. I'm not sure what year was exactly. I think it was 81 or late 81 or early 80. No, it was probably 80. It was 82. Had to be 82. My daughter and his daughter were born in 81. Just to step back for a minute, too.

You talked about getting that call from that news person and you saying, I have to hang up and digest this and think about this. how long did it take you to come to terms to realize that that information was correct? Did you think there was any kind of mistake that they had made or something like that? Well, I remember after that call, it got reported around the globe, I guess. Other reporters called me, and I didn't, I remember one I had told that evening CBS News or ABC or something that, well, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty. This is within like 48 hours, you know. And because I hadn't come to terms with it yet, right? And he's my brother-in-law and married to my sister, even though.

At that time, I didn't think of them as a couple at all because they split in 91. But I still, he has, you know, three daughters. So he was, we was still involved in the family. He would go visit mom and dad. Dad flew model airplanes and built them and so did Joe. So they had stayed friends. after Sharon and him split. I think that was mostly because of the children,

you know, the children and their grandparents. So Joe would sometimes either get them or leave them there for Sharon because, you know, they weren't not at all together. You know what I mean? It's sort of like they're a couple, but they're really not. They're just keep trying to family together. Well, they weren't a couple, but in any family,

in any of the family's eyes. But I think in his work, for the purpose of her, you know, she got part of his pension by staying married as well as his health care. So that was important.

So he used that as a carrot to keep, I think, her close to him, even though she, I know for fact, she didn't want anything to do with him at all for a long time. Because he was manipulative

and I think the way he tormented his victims, she got tormented too a bit by the relationship after they split up, because he would do things to, I think, to annoy her and he used the children. You know, that was so, so that's another part that is not in the book, but it happened. So yeah, she was not his friend at all. Wow. Going back to when you first met Joe, tell us about how that happened and what were your first thoughts or first impressions of him as a person? Well, he seemed shy at first, and that was when he came to the house. Sharon brought him over.

I guess she had decided that he had paid attention to her enough that before we go out, you're going to have to meet my family. And so I was there that evening. We talked because Sharon liked the fact that he had just been in the military and a Navy, and so was I at Navy. I was a Navy reservist, but, you know, And there was a similarity there. And so I met him and I thought he was shy, but he was apprehensive for more than because he's meeting this new family.

I didn't know at the time. He had just split up with Bonnie like, I don't know, six months before. You know what I mean? Or you're, I don't know when that exact timing of that. So, yeah, he met the family and that's how I met him. So then we talked in the similarity. and I learned that he needed or he was looking for a different place to live, which I didn't think it was, I thought that that was kind of quick to be asking me about that.

But I didn't know his situations or whatever, but he'd already warmed up to the family because he was, you know, got out of the Navy, you know, and he was personable, you know. Was there anything unusual about him or anything that stood out to him, anything that troubled you or alarmed you? No, he did a couple things that are in the story there in the book that I spell out that were alarming, you know. But these things that he did do, some were more alarming than others, but they were like, at the time when they're all spread out and they're not significant, significant, or only one of them was real significant. That was the road rage incident. It was like, you know, I didn't like it.

You know, I was upset about it. I let him know, you know, involving me in his game with some other vehicle where we ended up stopped and he pulls a gun on him. That's pretty alarming, right? It means a lot more, you know, you don't know that. I thought having a gun was not a big deal because he's studying to be a cop. And he soon, you know, he was in that mode. And he was soon to, he soon after that. did become an exeter PD officer, you know.

So these are things more like looking back now. You're saying, aha, that thing at that moment makes sense now. Well, it has new meaning, right? At the time, you wonder, is this how all cops are? You know what I mean? And did you hang out with him? Did you do, like, become friendly and do, like, brother-in-law type stuff together? Yes, we went snow skiing.

We did dirt bike riding, street riding. We did some boating, I think. Then he had a ski, he had a boat, and I had a boat. You know, we both had our ski boats way back, you know. I built a boat, and he built model boats and model airplanes. We each bought, before he started flying model. We each bought a sailplane. He bought a different model than me, but we built our sail planes and put motors on them and controlled so that we could learn to fly RC planes.

And he went on further to build the real powerful, bigger models and do aerobatics. So he was an expert model airplane flyer, you know. So it sounds like you just had a regular brother-in-law friend-type relationship and he just did, normal things exactly uh very normal but i didn't know anything about his nighttime activities and because he did i don't know how much of his career he did the swing shift but that was a lot of it and so when you get off at 11 3012 you do your police reporting whatever you don't get home until one two three and you know perhaps he should have been home at 1230 or 1 insurance probably all crashed out but you know

I'm saying, he could have come home at four or five. And she would not have been aware because she's still asleep, right? Necessarily. I mean, maybe not every night, but, you know, all he had to do was tell her, and I don't know that this happened, but all he just said was, well, I got involved in a bad case, and I had to write a big long report. So it took me until 2 a.m. You know, I mean, and that's the kind of guy he would, I can see him now as being so much more

manipulative than I thought he was back then. You know what I mean? And you mentioned too, he moved to Exeter to get this job out there near Vaisalia. When he came back, what was the reason? Do you know the reason why he was back looking for police work in the Sacramento area? Did he give any specific reason why? No, we didn't even talk about it. It's just he's in Exeter, he's a cop, But then the next thing you know, he's a cop in Auburn. Well, it's kind of like Exeter was a really small police department. Auburn's a little bit bigger. And it's closer to family being in Sacramento because Exeter's quite a ways.

So it was, you know, it's like people do. You know, they jump from a beginning job to a better job. You know what I mean? And we look at a little bit. Yeah. We didn't discuss it. you know, it's just what happened, and that's the way I looked at it. You know what I mean?

Oh, okay, Arbor. But he didn't last there long because of the theft. And when he stole, he told me one day about it. They said, well, it was wrong. It was so wrong, you know, and, you know, I was just testing to see how this, I put a tool in my pants. I never even got out of the store. He never mentioned the dog repell, and he didn't tell me it was a hammer,

but it wouldn't have mattered. Maybe he did tell me it was a hammer. I don't know, but, you know, things like that, it was not like, I thought it was bad that. Why? How could you do that, Joe? It was kind of stupid on his part because, you know, you do that. You get busted. You're done, you know, as far as being a cop, basically, unless you move to another state or something, I suppose.

So you were, that was something that seemed, you know, a little bit puzzling to you why as a police officer stealing stuff. Right. I mean, but it wasn't, it doesn't point to murder or rape. at all. There's a lot of petty thefts out there. Yeah. And there could just be someone in your mind, there's people at shoplift that are, you know, well-known actors and actresses that have been busted shoplifting. But it doesn't, there's nothing that screams that it's related to something bigger. Right.

It was during that time when he bounced back to the Sacramento area, he had made this physical transformation. You know, he appeared big, stocky, heavier before. And when he got back to Sacramento, he seemed like he was thinner, more athletic. Did you notice that physical transformation? And did he ever explain what he did to do that and why he did that? I do recall him got into biking at one point because he was a junk food addict. And he'd gone to see the doctor. And they told him, you're going to kill yourself, eating all the salt.

and this is probably he's already probably 70ish you know 65 70s and so I don't know what year that is probably 10 12 15 years ago but and so he got into the bike riding and he would ride from citricites to my mom's house in citricite that happened for a while and I noticed he dropped some weight but he got more in shape because of the doctor said yeah it's going to last very long he relayed this to me or one of his daughters said, I don't know, back in the day that he was in trouble if he didn't get himself in shit because he didn't pay attention to the food. He just either liked it or he didn't and he ate what he wanted junkwise

tear of chips. You know, he did a lot of that stuff, you know. But I did some too. We all did when we're younger. You know what I mean? But it does catch up to you. So that was not a big deal. But yeah, that was the reason

I remember that I was told by my mom and my daughter and sister, somebody that had spoke to him about it, unless he told me himself, I'm not positive, but he was, I saw him getting in shape, losing weight and riding the bike, and somebody said, well, yeah, he had to quit eating the junk food because he was eating too much salt, and he was having high blood pressure, you know, problems, hypertension, you know, so. But that makes sense. Yeah. The physical transformation was something you definitely noticed, but you just attributed to him trying to get healthier.

Way back. Yeah, now there was a new transformation that I noticed yesterday with the hearing versus when he was arrested. Whether he's feigning, what's going on, I don't know, but he looks horrible compared to, you know, if he looked at the video when he was on the boat, he was pretty much close to that look when he was arrested, maybe a little bit older, because he was nine years older, 10 years older, but, you know, in the court, he looks 20 years old.

You know what I mean? Do you ever remember Joe having a shoulder injury and arm injury during 1977, maybe that required a sling or anything like that? Any kind of shoulder injury, whereas maybe out of commission for a person? couple weeks or had to take time off of work? Nope, because I just, I didn't. If he had something like that, he might have hit it well. Just, you know what I mean? Avoid it going out for a week or two, like you say.

You know, because did he have a snuffling in one of his things? During one of his attacks, he chased him down. I guess you guys have those aqueducts in California, those big giant cement things that go down to where the water. water drains down. Well, he went over a fence and took a steep fall down one of those things, and they said that there was no way that he didn't get hurt from that fall. And the next, so what they did was I think they put word out to all the hospitals in the area. The next day, a guy came with a shoulder injury using an ID, someone that, it was a stolen ID that he used.

and the hospital personnel got kind of suspicious, and he since he were getting suspicious, and he ran off. Now, I don't know if that guy was Joe. This is a lead they checked out, that whoever this guy was with the shoulder injury the next day, took off. The thing about that, there was no attacks, no East area rapist attacks,

for I want to say three months during that time period after he supposedly got injured. So I was always curious if he was ever caught. I always wanted to see if anyone that knew him would be able to see if he had any kind of injury that maybe showed up around that time. That's interesting. I hadn't heard this piece of this. So was that in Sacramento County then? Yeah, that was in Sacramento.

There was a time during the 1977 or so. That's when the East Area rapists were happening. Everyone's locking their doors. They're afraid. And you mentioned that you had a young family. You were afraid, too. Was there a time when you and Joe had a discussion about the East Area rapist crimes? Yeah.

Can you tell us a little about that conversation and sort of what he had to say about it and what you said? It's all in the book, because it is one piece of it. It was about, he came over and we started talking about it. I don't remember how it started, but it was such a big deal in the news in the 77 or a time frame, I would say. And so as a cop in Auburn, you know, I'm like, yeah, look at this. I put these sticks in the windows. Oh, and I bought a gun and I keep it under the pillow. He knew everything that I was doing, but I had no idea.

He was the guy. So that's kind of bizarre. and to learn that now because he went over my security with me. So he's essentially saying, what are you doing to protect yourself and you're walking through all the things that you've got in place? Exactly. It's just really strange.

Wow. Well, that was probably one of the little elements. You know, it's like you have all these little things that happen, and then you say, you know what, I should just write this story. You know, I mean, people are going to want to know. know this, you know. And that's, and that's one of the things, too, that Joe worked with as a

police officer. He was in charge of a lot of those anti-burglary task and, and keeping neighborhoods safe and walking people through how they should, uh, keep themselves safe and keep their houses

safe. So that's, that's very, it's like the, uh, the wolf garden, uh, hen house. Or the, whatever they mean. Yeah. Yeah. strange. I read the reports now that he was on that burglary task force at Exeter,

but I didn't know about that when he was there. He didn't discuss those kind of things. You know what I mean? I went on a ride along and he showed me the fruit bats or just bats, I guess they are. They're not fruit bats. He called them that, but you know what I'm saying? Because they're

in the orange orchards at the streetlights on the streets, you know, flying around crazy and we were out and it was night because he's a swing shift or a night cop, and I went along for the ride for a couple hours, and he's showing off his patrol car, and he's a cop now, an exeter, you know,

so I went down to see him, you know. And anyway, but see, in Sacramento, we didn't hear any news of the Viceroyer ransackers. That didn't get to Sacramento, none of that. It's just like the murder's original, you know, nightstock of thing. I had never heard about it. um i'd heard about the nightstocker and that was the because he was i guess he was after richard

ramirez and then before that was the they they had to actually rename him the original but i guess i don't know how it worked you probably know more about that me well that it's that's part of the confusion in california whatever area these crimes were happening each area had its own moniker its own nickname for the person that was doing it. So during this time, he's a regular cop. There's nothing on you. There's nothing.

You notice these little tiny things here looking back now, but at the time, there's nothing glaring that's popping out to you saying, well, I think there's something more than meets the eye with Jody Angelo. No, it just wasn't there. That's,

there's a couple little things, you know, that they're in the book, and the road rage and you know there's some other things but nothing says you're a rapist or murder i had no idea it just not enough you know but yeah there's uh it's uh crazy when i when i learned it was a big shock you know then all these things these little events i actually woke up with these events oh yeah i remember this oh yeah and then after several weeks and oddly different times I would think of certain things and then you know I'm going to start writing these down because I wouldn't think of them any other time but I don't know why but but then when I get up and it's

3 a.m. and I just remembered the road rage so I would make notes and then the next day I go back to bed just make a couple short notes and then when I go back to bed I get up in the morning and read the notes oh yeah okay now I'll have to tell what happened that day you know and so I wrote that down And then I was compiling these things with the thought that, well, what if, you know, I don't know if there's enough here. You know what I mean to make a story, but it might be something that would be helpful to law enforcement, profilers or other such things, people like you that are trying to figure out how this can happen or how this mind ticks. And honestly, I don't really know how this mind ticks. It's more of a crazy, such a crazy mind, you know. You think he did a really good job of maybe hiding it from everyone?

Yes, he did. I mean, even the, you know, the police officer in Auburn, his chief or boss, the one he wanted to kill because he was so furious at him at getting fired. Like it's just, I'm thinking, why would you get mad about that when you stole, you know, you can't do that and be a cop, right? but he's mad at the cop it's the chief's fault and you know he was furious about that and you know why

why doesn't one figure it out but that guy had talked to reporters once and said yeah he did a few things he was always skirting the procedures a little bit you know and so we weren't happy with him sometimes but

they didn't fire him they never thought he was going to be this guy you know what I mean he's dairy rapist right but that's it was all happening while he was sitting there in Auburn living there and being a cop there he was driving down to the rancher cordova and east Sacramento areas and committing his crimes his horrible crimes and then going home you know like nothing happened I think I think even one of the attacks or maybe more than one of the attacks I can't remember I have to go back and look um but I think at least one of them happened on anniversaries of his anniversary and your sister's wedding anniversary.

Well, it could have been. I didn't notice that. I noticed that he did a couple crimes on my birthday. And I figured now, now looking back, I figured that was a cover because of her family would have been busy with the birthday party. You know what I mean to get together. And nobody's got the news turned on. And so if he does that crime that morning, and they reported on the 5 o'clock news, now mom's got a kick for me and my sisters are showing up.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was a cover. I really do. So isn't that odd, but there was some of that, you know, that I feel like, wow, that's weird. You know, because there's only a couple dates that he did things, bad things. bad things on certain dates, you know.

And I didn't think of their, because I don't know their wedding date. I didn't, I could look it up, but, you know, I didn't know and they didn't compare. But when I went through the, the mystery rapists, all those things, there was like two dates that were only two dates

that he used more than, that he did the crimes more than once. You know, he did him twice on that same day. And one of those times, I think it was only two days. twice. But anyway, well, the date that my birthday is one of those dates. And so it was a cover, I think. You know what I mean? Or maybe it angered him. That, you know, because he didn't like parties and get together. She avoided those things. And so he wasn't going to go, right?

So that was sort of a way to, well, everyone's busy doing something else. He can, he's freed up a little bit of time for himself to do whatever he was doing. We don't know if he did it during the birthday party, but I mean, he knew that we would not be watching the news. That's what I figure. And because it was such a big event, well, I should say it was a big crime serial rape thing in Sacramento. It was so huge that I don't know. Maybe he was thinking that, you know, he doesn't want the exposure or at least the family to think, you know, to get the exposure of all the crimes. So I don't know.

don't know that i don't really know what happened but that is just a fact and uh so there's a lot of these things you know these just don't know uh you can't put your finger on it he was weird you know i mean at night or should i say when he was doing his evil he was a totally different person obviously to me now looking back he was not like that in his uh normal life but he had to he had some little traits that, you know, were, I think I heard once, I know I heard that he always seemed a little bit fake. I heard that remark from a family member. That's interesting observation. Well, I mean, when you think about it now, if he's a psychopath, right?

I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, but if it turns out that that's there, whether it was environmentally imposed, I guess, or whether it was born that way, you know, So if you look at, they are, they compartmentalized, because I studied this a little bit, just so I'd understand it, not knowing if he is or not, but I mean, I thought about it. And I said, maybe that's what you would call him. But so I don't know, he had some environmental issues for sure. I mean, that's reported about his daughter, his sister, remember getting raped? Yeah. So that's a pretty big event, right? Pretty big shocker.

I mean, he's a 10-year-old boy. Oh, definitely. And then I had heard, and I don't know if this is verified, but his father abandoned him, started a new family and gave all his new children the names of his old children. You know, I don't know how much of that is accurate, but that's something that was reported. So they, yeah, definitely different things that can, not that it makes an excuse for them, but I can see it causing issues early on that will probably lead to problems. later in life. I'm trying to imagine you come into terms with this because this is someone that, again, you consider him your brother or your friend, you trusted him with your own children. Did you feel betrayed by Joe and did the rest of your family feel betrayed by him? You know, I don't know if they feel the betrayal that I do and have, and that's one of the reasons.

I mean, there's probably five reasons to write a book, but, you know, that people can think of a lot of them, But I could think of as besides getting out there, these little traits, was I was so betrayed, I wanted to, because he wanted to just grow old and die and nobody know nothing, right? So I thought, well, I'm not going to let him peacefully. You know what I mean? I'm going to tell the story. And so it was a revenge, sort of, you might say.

It was a, he betrayed me and I'll be damned if I'm going to be quiet. You know what I mean? You didn't want him to just slink off into prison and remain quiet, and you wanted to shed some light on what you could shed light on. Yeah, it was because I was so betrayed. I was so upset. And then when I watched this stuff yesterday, I'm even disturbed again. I almost like he gets so much, he did so many, and he did so much,

that I want to put this really behind me now because it's just horrific. It's completely horrific. question I want to ask you to see if you could just shed some light on it and maybe you don't even know. But when he did get fired, he lost his job up north and he went south, a lot of the crimes happened in the Galita, Santa Barbara area. Did he have any ties, any family, any kind of work down there that you know of anything like that? That brought him to that area? They were close to the 101 freeway.

And if you, you know, if Sharon went there for work and he and they had a home there in Sacramento or Citrus Heights, you know, Sacramento area and you wanted to get from there to there for a visit, you would take the 101. I-5 was just getting finished or opened around that time, however, which is a little bit easier, but, you know, and there's nothing along I-5. I mean, it's barren. From about Stockton to Bakersfield, there's little, which is a good 200 miles. But if he went over to the Contra Costa area, which is where he committed many crimes, the 101 pretty much is right by there. And then you go on down, you would follow, you take that freeway right on down through Goleta, Ventura, all these places where he did crimes and end up in Long Beach where

Sharon was living. So it's my personal belief that he could drive and do something for hours, just, um, steady and go. And then when he gets where he gets, he's done. But, you know, he could focus on one thing and just, and he would go fast. I was sure. I'm sure he drove fast. But anyway, um, so he could have easily, um,

picked his victims, uh, left it, say, in the evening and drove a few hours. picked a victim over in the Bay Area, Contra Costa, somewhere there, and then continued on down to visit family down there, Sharon or whatever, and then after the visit or whatever. So I believe that he committed crimes while he was commuting, sort of, even though, you know what I mean? Even though they sound strange, but that's, you know, he had work and he had his time. But the other thing is, is I don't know where he went to his diesel mechanic school. What he did get, I think a federal grant or a grant for going to school after he lost his police job. He told me he got a settlement, but it could have been something else.

And he told me he was going to go truck driving school. But he never told me where that school was. So if I had known this was going to happen, back then, you know, I could have said, oh, by the way, where are you going to school? you know, what's your first job? But, you know, when you don't know any of the stuff is happening, it's no big deal. And I'm busy for my own work and my own life, you know. Yeah, yeah.

And so the diesel school, the mechanical job, that all started during that time, 79 after he got fired. That's when he started doing that stuff. Yeah. Do you know what month he was fired? I don't even know. So it might have been easy. I have to go back and, I want to say it was 79. I won't say it was summer of 79.

I think he might be right. So it's halfway through the year. So 80's right around the corner. And it could have taken him six months easily to get set up in the school or get the grant or whatever it was, the settlement. So it was probably an 80 when he did the schooling, you know, is my guess. And I know it was almost a year long and pretty sure. So then he could have gotten a diesel mechanic job just anywhere between. you know what I mean, the Sacramento area and the L.A. area, I don't even know what year, Sharon went down there for her work.

Because, you know, her own shock and awe and her kids, she did want to talk about it when she learned because she knows doing a book. So I do understand that. I mean, you know, it's your family. I'm here. I'm writing this story about him mostly, but she didn't want to be part of that story at all. And I know that her and her daughters have chosen to stay silent, which is, you know, they're right. I think a lot of people don't realize when something like this happens and you find out your husband, your father is a serial killer or a serial rapist, those people in that family are victims in another way. And, you know, obviously they weren't raped or murdered, but still to find out that this, The person has done all this stuff. I think a lot of people lose sight that they, too, or that the person that was in their life is not who they thought they were,

and they've got a lot of baggage to deal with. Right. So I totally understand. You know, I mostly wanted to get her to tell me more about those dates, you know, his job in 1980 through, you know, he totally went to work for Save Mark. I didn't know what year that was. You know what I mean? For Robertson, it was.

There was definitely a gap between when the rape stopped in northern California and when they started down in Southern California. And who knows, maybe that period or whatever the time frame was off the top of my head. Maybe that's when he was moving down there getting settled. There was a small gap in 78, and it was right around when it sold one house and about the other. and I probably had him help me move. And he was probably, you know, involved with that a little bit and didn't have time for that stuff. I don't know.

It's just a thought I had that may have had something to do when I had that month off because that's the month I moved. Because he did. He was pretty prolific. And it was like weekly, mostly, or every other week at the least, you know. And, yeah, until he completely changed his. area. And he was in the East Sacramento and the heat became so fierce.

I remember because I was, I think I even may have mentioned to him the others. People regular people like me and I've even thought of the middle of the night, although I got to get up and go to work at six or seven, I said, we've got to catch this guy. So I've been

thinking about getting up and sitting out by the street corner and watching vehicles go by so maybe I could You know, I told him this, and there were many citizen patrols just looking for anything out of ordinary right about the time that he stopped. Because I think the heat was on, basically, not just from the sheriff's department, but the people, you know, it was so horrific. And we didn't know all the details that we learned yesterday. I didn't.

I was just afraid. I heard that he was, they did report something about he was. actually mutilation, cut some kitties or something, I don't know. That's what I can remember, but I didn't even, you know, see that yesterday. Yeah, during, I know yesterday it came up that one of the victims, he kicked their dog. And during the early, especially the beginning, 1976 time frame in Rancho Cordova, during the early attacks, there were several dogs that were found bludgeoned that they thought might be related to the Easterer rapist. Sometimes he'd encounter a dog and he would just put it in another room.

Sometimes he would kick it. But again, if he's trying to get in a house and there's a dog there and it's a threat to him, maybe it certainly explains the dog repellent, the need for dog repellent. him for sure. Exactly. I do know that he never had a dog that I know of or a cat, either one. Let me ask a hard question. You mentioned you're out there looking yourself to catch maybe the East area rapist in the middle of running down the street or something. If you ever discovered back then that Joe, your brother-in-law, was the East Area rapist, would you have immediately called the police and said, this is the guy right here? Well, yeah, I wouldn't have attempted to try to, you know, ask him about it.

I would have just went right to the cops. That's their job, you know. But I just told him what I knew that made me believe that he could be, you know, basically because of this or because of that. But there was never enough of anything for me to suspect him. I mean, he's a cop the whole time. He's a cop. I mean, he left the area as a rapist, but he did not leave his home in Auburn.

You know what I mean? So he was still a cop. And he was apparently driving all the way to the Bay Area. And I think he did Modesto, Stockton. He did a few areas. And that happened right after it's funny how I moved to Lodi. Because I had a job in Stockton. And then now there were some cases down there.

You know, I don't know if it was right before I went down there. He knew I was looking because I got the job. I want to say, in the fall the year before, and it was a Stockton job, and he was always keeping track of me, sort of. So, and I didn't know why, or I didn't think of it that way,

but when I'd visit mom, he said, Joe was here and he asked about you. And of course, she would tell him what I was up to, which is kind of, when I think about it now, it's kind of strange, because that was the one thing I always got out of mom when I went to visit. Joe was here yesterday, or Joe was here last week,

And he wants to know about you. And I didn't know what could mean anything else until now. You know what I'm saying? So. Those things just looking back, now you start thinking all these different things in your mind. Why was he asking that? Why did he want to know that stuff? Well, yeah, I had another brother-in-law back then, you know, and I had sisters.

And, but it was always when I visited, oh, Joe was just here. He asked about you, Jim. You know, she wanted me to feel like, you know, Joe cared about me. But, you know, it's like this happened a lot, and I didn't put it together that it meant anything, you know, other than the fact that he missed me, he cared about me because I was doing something in Lodi now. And he's still in the Sacramento area or Sharon's studying for the law degree or either the degree or I think by now she's studying for the bar. and got a job, you know what I mean in LA. So, you know, it's just weird how you look back, and that's part of what's happened for this whole two-plus years now.

But the good news is I have to, I wanted this out there, that I got relief and some satisfaction out of doing the book for the purpose of, I fulfilled this thing, and it took the weight off my shoulders because there was a time in the in months after the not the first year within the first year and I was contemplating should I or shouldn't I should I or shouldn't I meanwhile put the notes you know what I mean and should I or shouldn't I do a book and ultimately it came down to this was going to bug me the rest of my life if I don't do the book you see what I'm saying yeah and you felt like maybe you were what I'm saying yeah and you felt like

maybe you were whatever information you could give you wanted to unload that and help if it helped answer some questions in some way. Yes, and it may be helpful to the victims in some way because they all want understanding also. And it could be helpful to law enforcement or to people at home that may have a stranger in their life. They read the books and then or they they learn of a rape and a body found, you know, in a field, a mile from them, but they know this person. It is strange in these certain ways, and they've read the book, and it's sick, and I should tell somebody. You know what I'm saying?

So this may never happen, but it could, right? And so I'm thinking, I might actually, by doing this, prevent a future rape or future murder. I was part of my... that's a good reason to write a book if it's somehow going to help some kind of future, if it prevents a future criminal. Yeah, you know, you don't know, but that did cross my mind several times. And so when the ultimate decision was, I have to do the book. I just have to.

Because I'm the only one. Sure is too devastated, right? And nobody knew him except his other family. He had another family, small, that he grew up with. So yeah, it's, and who knows if they're going to do anything or not, but they didn't know him all the way through. I knew him from 71 until even, you know, right up to the rest, although we weren't doing things together because he kind of shied away from me.

And I don't know if he, you know, the reasoning, but now I kind of think the reason he had new friends that were fishing buddies and he liked to fish, and I wasn't into fishing. You know what I mean. necessarily. Have you spoken to him since he was arrested? Oh no. I believe when he got arrested, he clammed up, got an attorney, and that's the only person he spoke with. And again, I know this is maybe personal, and maybe you don't even know or you don't want to talk about this, but has Sharon or his daughters, has he talked to them at all? Well, for my knowledge, no one except his lawyer.

Wow. So I can't even imagine how they're processing this entire ordeal. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's horrific. And, you know, I thought it was bad enough, you know, a year and a half ago or two years ago. But now, boy, when I saw the details in the hearing, it was even more detail. I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, it's just like it rings so much to these. poor people that didn't have it coming.

You know, when you, when you read about the murder and the guy caught his wife in bed with somebody and he kills them both, people can understand that. You know, it's a momentary rage and it's not right, but you know what I mean, you can understand it, but when somebody is with their wife, lovely wife in Ventura or Oxnard, wherever it happened, you know, had these different areas or the leader, but they got nothing coming. he's done nothing to anybody these people

and then the stranger just comes in and wax you know both of them or beats them to death and shoots them whatever the case was you know because there's different ones but it's like it's just baffling that

somebody could have that kind of rage and and just take it out on complete strangers and I don't know how do you how do you figure that mind out you know I know there's people that want to know what made that man tick.

And because of the bizarre nature of what he's done, I don't have the real answers. All I could do was right about some of the experiences that we had because he was so normal. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to get across was he was so normal in almost every way that it took 45 years because nobody saw it. And that's because he had a great disguise. and of normalcy. He learned over a course of time how to become normal. I think he had to learn it because some of the things he did were just not what, like the roadway, just not what you do, you know, it's not normal.

And there's a lot. We're recording this conversation the day after the plea hearing. And you said it before, said it earlier, the details, and they're just giving a little snippet of each attack in that court proceeding. But to hear those details, how shocking they were and how brutal they were, and to know that this person was someone you considered a friend and was your brother-in-law, it's got to be, I don't know how you process that. Oh, it's, I just shake my head, you know, like, why?

You know, that would be, why couldn't you control yourself, Joe? You know, why did you do that when you had a good life? I mean, it doesn't make sense to most of us. But, you know, it's so the only thing, you know, without knowing psychologically for sure, I would just say, yeah, it has to be a psychopath. Would you say that, Mike, or not? You know, I'm the furthest from a mental evaluator myself, but I, I'm disappointed. the one thing I hoped would come out in court is he said he's guilty and he is admitted to all

of the things they've accused him of, which is good. But I was hoping that he would give more details of how he did stuff and why he did it and when he did it so that they could collect that information and maybe learn from it and how to spot future predators like that. And I was disappointed that we didn't hear that. And we're probably never going to hear that now because without a trial, without him saying that stuff at the hearings, you know, that that's probably not going to happen. So there's going to be a lot of unanswered questions, I think, and that's a little bit disappointing for me. I think it is for everyone. I think that, I think they made the right decision to get it settled.

I don't know if we covered that, but I think it's the right decision. You don't get everything. You can't get everything, but this could have drug out, you know what I mean, for years. Forget the money. The money is immaterial in a way. It does make a little difference to their budgets, but it's so small when you think about the size of these counties. They're all pretty big. And the fact that this is so horrific, but we count the charges, you know, it's like 67 or 8, whatever it was that they rolled into yesterday was just, And then they did the detail.

It's like, who cares about how much? Because some reporter was trying to get that out of one of the DAs. How much is it saving? Who cares what it's saving? It's more about the victims, the victims. They're real people. And they've carried this for 40 plus years, most of them. And 45, some, 47 for others, and 48 maybe.

But they're all seniors like me. And they're all, and some are older. And, you know, so they need to. to get something behind them as far as some sort of piece. The satisfaction, just knowing that he's never, that he's admitted and that he is going to jail, to me, that was a good relief for me, you know, because I was pretty certain, and I was only, my big fear was yesterday that the last minute, he's going to change his damn mind, you know, and they'll never get any kind of, I don't know if there's closure or not,

but you know what I mean, any kind of satisfaction. Well, and I had a little bit of a fear of that, too, that he would get. everyone in that room and say, no, I'm not going to do this. They changed my mind just to as a last screw you type of gesture, a last control measure to say, I'm in control and I'm going to drag this out as long as I can. So for that part, I'm thankful that he did say the words. I admit it guilty because I thought he would never get to that. I thought he would fight it as long as he could and just stretch it out until he died of old, age before anything got done.

So that's what I was afraid. I was afraid that would happen too. Yeah. And I'm glad for the victims of the survivors and everyone else that, again, I don't think there's any closure, but maybe this is a step towards peace in their lives, more peace. So that's what I'm hoping for, at least. And the one question I want to ask you before we finish this up, you know him. You know him, you spent a lot of years with him.

and I don't know how recently you saw him before he was arrested, but this act that we've seen, I consider it an act, but you'd know better than me, of a feeble, barely able to talk, slunk down in his seat, he can't move well. Is that the real Joe DiAngelo, or is that something that he's faking? Well, I haven't associated with him in a long time,

but it doesn't seem like it's the real Joe DeAngelo. You know what I'm saying. So I don't know. if somebody could deteriorate that far in two years and months from where he was when he was arrested. It seems like he's gone down to this

95-year-old in two and a half years from 72 years old. You know, and it just seems kind of bizarre. So it very well could be fake, but then I heard that he didn't eat well or perhaps somebody reported that he lost a lot of weight

And when I saw him, there, I thought, wow, he does look bad. But I think it may be an act because, you know, to draw some sort of sympathy. I don't know how, but I don't have any sympathy for him, no. I have zero because of what he did and those victims. I just, it just appalls me and it really grinds me. And I got my say about it by writing about him and his way. I think that was a relief for me. But I'm glad it all got wrapped up, sort of, in a way.

That was just that sentencing, you know, the sentencing, right? Yeah, I think that's the, I think the official sentencing is in August, so we're probably, I don't know, six weeks away from that. But, you know, that's just as far as I understand it, dotting the eyes and crossed from the T's, it's just a formality at this point. but hopefully after all these lives have been shattered and destroyed and uprooted that this can be a new chapter of peace in all these lives. And I look forward to reading your book. And it's called Killers Keep Secrets of the Golden State Killer's Other Life.

And it's available right now by James Huddle. Where can people find it, Jim? Well, it's on Amazon. and it is part of a wider distribution. So if you have KDP or if you have Amazon Prime, you can just go there and read it on your Kindle or other tablet because I set it up so it's free for a large portion of people. A lot of people have Prime now.

And if you don't, you would buy it for, I think it's $699. Or you can order the paperback. It has a nice feel. I like the paperback. And that is, I think, 1399. You know, book launchers, they set me up with everything. So there's probably multiple places people can find. All they have to do is Google.

Amazon's probably the real big one where a lot of people go for their books. Another outlet so that it could be found in, say, a bookstore. You know, somewhere other than Amazon. Because there's people that absolutely don't like Amazon. Yeah, people want another option besides mail order, absolutely. but the good thing is there's there's plenty of places i just googled it real quick and you can find any number of places to read the book and i think the book's going to be pretty enlightening so people can see this case through a different perspective uh from inside that family to understand what

they experienced what you experienced uh and i think that's a a good insight to look at this case from that we haven't seen before so i hope uh people go out and check the book out and i definitely appreciate your time and for you coming on and sharing your insight with us, Jim. All right, that was it. That was the interview with James Huddle, former brother-in-law to Joseph J. DiAngelo. Very interesting, Morve. Yeah, I think some of the things he said that make you sit up in your chair and have an aha moment, maybe something makes sense. And there were really some things that were just very plain Jane as if he lived a normal life in some way. So it was pretty surprising, but overall, I think it was very good to have an insight from that perspective from someone that knew him well, as well as his brother-in-law did.

No, it reminds me of season two. You and I doing season two and being able to score some of the big interviews that we did with survivors, with, you know, some of the investigators, Paul holes. I mean, to me, it kind of brought back some of those members. of you and I doing that season. And I'll say it again, for anyone that has not listened to season two of criminology, the Golden State Killer, you really should. Morph and I put a ton of work into that. It's a great, very, very deep dive into the case. And you can find it on Stitcher Premium. They even have that 30-day free trial. Go check it out. I think any time that you can get somebody that close to the killer, it's worth it to hear what they have to say. And I hope everybody got

something out of it. But that's it for another episode of criminology. Morph and I will be back with everyone next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So for Mike and Morph, we'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.