Criminology - Keith Mann

Episode Date: May 8, 2022

In 1997, 20-year-old Keith Mann disappeared in Wichita Falls, Texas after being dropped off at his apartment by some friends. Keith was just really starting his life and things were going well. He was in love with a girl named Carrie and they were going to share the apartment. He also had a good job at a local car dealership. Carrie had just finished up school and was getting set to join Keith in their apartment. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the disappearance of Keith Mann. No one has given up on finding Keith, especially his father Gregg and his stepmother Debra. Detective John Laughlin of the Wichita Falls police department has also been very active in Keith's case. All three of these individuals join us for this episode to talk about Keith and the circumstances surrounding his disappearance. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 206 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Morph, what is going on with you, man? I'm hanging down here in Florida, going to my kids' games and hanging out, doing some fishing. What's new with you?

Oh, that sounds good, fishing. I'm just getting ready for CrimeCon. I know this is going to come out much later. We'll already be back from CrimeCon, but it is a grind, man, to get everything out early so that we can fly out to Vegas, but I'm super excited about it. Yeah, it throws your system off a little bit

because we're recording so far in advance and putting out episodes in the queue, so to speak, and you sort of lose track of things. So let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Clark's New Harvest Farm, Mara Yeager, Lindsay B, and Allison Zenhulfer. So that's some great new support. We really appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you so much to everyone that takes the time to support criminology. We can't thank you enough. And if you're someone that would like to support the show, you can do so by going to Patreon.com slash criminology. All right, buddy, it's time to jump into this episode. And we have a really puzzling missing persons case out of Wichita Falls, Texas. One that has not only perplexed police there for 25 years, but has left a young man's family, heartbroken and unable to fully move on and in limbo, wondering what happened.

We're talking about the case of 20-year-old Gregory Keith Mann, who went by Keith. Since Keith's family and police are doing everything they can to bring awareness to the case in time for May 10, 2022, which will mark the 25th anniversary of Keith's disappearance. We wanted to help, but we thought that we could help even more if we teamed up with our friends, Nick and the Captain, over at True Crime Garage, to really get Keith's case out to a wider audience. Nick and the Captain are covering Keith's case and they just dropped their episode on Keith Man, just days before we dropped this one. So after you listen to this episode, you can go back and taking Keith Man's case on True Crime Garage getting a look at this case

through their eyes. To tell Keith story properly, we also need the help of his family and the detective tasked with solving his case. So you will hear from Keith's father, Greg Mann, and his stepmom, Deborah, as well as Detective John Loughlin of the Wichita Falls Police Department throughout this episode. We hope that listeners, especially those in the Wichita Falls, Texas area, will help spread the work about Keith Mann's case on social media. Someone out there know something or might just hold the key to solving this case. Gregory Keith Mann Jr., who went by Keith, was born on February 19, 1977, and Alamogordo, New Mexico, to parents Greg Mann and Sandra Gross. He went by his middle name Keith since he was born.

His parents divorced in 1980 when Keith was around three years old, and he lived with his mom, Sandra, until the summer of 1991, before he moved to Wichita Falls, Texas to live with his dad, Craig and stepmom Deborah. Keith is the oldest of four. He has two sisters, Brittany and Sarah Mann, and a brother, Jesse. Keith attended Ryder High School in Wichita Falls and graduated in 1995. He was a skilled baseball player who was actually featured on a news report in

Wichita Falls because of the 500 batting average he was carrying for a stretch in high school. His senior year, he helped his team win the District 5A championship. Keith also earned the Don Hartman Memorial Award that same year. That award honors the senior baseball player who demonstrates hard, hard work, and leadership through the course of their baseball career at Ryder High School. Keith was awarded a scholarship to North Central Texas Junior College in Gainesville, Texas. He also enjoyed playing competitive softball with his dad, Greg, and he played competitive baseball for the Burke Burnett Blackseye.

I'm Greg Mann. I'm Keith's dad. Hi, I'm Deborah Mann. He's stepmom. He was just, like I said, he was a good big brother to our daughters. And he just was a typical boy. He liked sports. He, you know, just riding his bike in the neighborhood, you know, with the neighborhood kids. You know, just playing ball, you know, at the park or something like that. It just, you know, it was pretty good boy. And he liked school and got good grades. And we know, he's, you know, he's a good grade. And we know, he never really had any problems in that area. And when he got to high school, he decided he wanted to come live with us full time and try out. He had heard about Ryder and their baseball program and, you know, thought he'd like to try that out and see how he did. And he ended up staying the whole four years and doing really good baseball that kept him focus.

And he was quiet, kind of kept to himself. But yet, you know, he can be funny. He always tried to kind of lighten the mood, practice. a joke and make people laugh and smile and all that. So he's just kind of a good-natured boy, you know, just I guess because of high school, because he was so focused on baseball, you know, it was almost, that was on his mind 24 hours a day, I guess, that, you know, I didn't have too much time for other activities. But, and like I said, he came up missing when he was just barely turned 20. So we didn't get to know him, you know, in his older years and, you know,

how he would have been, you know, as a full adult. And actually, you know, the year before that, he was away at college and we didn't really see him too much. Had a little bit of anxiety, you know, kind of some social anxiety. So he didn't really have a lot of girlfriends in high school, but he liked going to the dances and things like that. And then when he went off to college, he did meet a girl there and she was there for volleyball and he was there for baseball.

So they had a lot in common and got along pretty good. But we just didn't really see him too much that last year or two, just because he was either away at college or sometimes he would go back to New Mexico to stay with his mom. So he's kind of going back and forth. So we just enjoyed the time we had with him. And we're really upset that it kind of got cut short like that. And we weren't able to experience his.

you know, adult years and getting married, having kids, you know, that kind of thing. It really affected our daughters. They probably grew up differently than what they would have because one was like in sixth grade. The other one was probably like in fourth. So, you know, we got real protective of them. You know, we didn't want them, you know, going anywhere without us or, you know, even playing out front yard. you know, we were scared. We didn't know what this had to do with. And we had a lot of people, you know, would go down our street and kind of drive real slow and be looking at our house. But we didn't

know if, you know, that was just, you know, onlookers or if that was somebody that was involved. And so, you know, we were real kind of protective of them. And they probably didn't do some of the stuff that they would have if this hadn't happened. And, you know, we really didn't feel like going on family vacations or, you know, it was just, we all turned depressed and we just kind of really didn't know how to deal with it because at the time, you know, we couldn't say 100%, oh, it's a death. So, you know, we're mourning. We're going through the, you know, the five stages of grief or, you know, whatever. We couldn't really say that because we were hoping he's still alive.

And, you know, it's taken all these years now, going on the 25th anniversary, it was like, well, you know, it doesn't sound like he is still alive that something had to have happened at the very beginning. But because we didn't have any facts on it, we couldn't mourn properly or we couldn't deal with it. And like I said, it really affected the whole, our family dynamics and, you know, how our life would have been different. You feel like you're stuck in 1997. Life hasn't really gone on. Detective John Loughlin, who has worked tirelessly on Keith's case, helped to give us a sense of what Wichita Falls, Texas is like. My name is John Loflin. I'm a detective with the Wichita Falls Police Department Crimes Against Persons Unit.

I'm currently assigned to the cold case position, which is how I got to know Keith's case and his family and why we're talking today. I've been with Wichita Falls. This is my 26th year. It's not a high crime area, like some of the bigger. cities would be, but it's not crime-free, like some of the smalling neighborhood towns. Wichita Falls is the county seat for Wichita County, and there's about five other little cities that are around this area in the county. So, you know, 200 sworn officers and another 100-plus support staff, and we have our fair share of offenses. We have two colleges or universities in our community.

We have an Air Force base in our jurisdiction and several manufacturing plants or businesses that are around here. So the pass-through traffic, we sit on Highway 287 or I-44, 287, 281, several highways kind of come together in our city. So there's a lot of pass-through on the highway. So not as big as your Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex by any stretch, but as the same size as any one of those smaller cities within the Metroplex area, you know, somewhere between 100,000, 200,000 folks.

Detective Laughlin also gave us a sense of what it was like to take up Keith's case from an investigator standpoint, years after he went missing and where the case stands today in his eyes. My initial assessment of it was, wow, there's a lot of work that's been done. There's a lot of things that have been done that is going to take me a while to kind of really get a good grasp of who all has been talked to and what they've said. But going through that, as I sit here today, I don't think the evidence supports that Keith voluntarily went missing. I don't think that he decided one day that he just didn't want to have any contact with his friends or family any longer.

that he had a commission check from selling two new vehicles that was waiting on him that was never picked up. These are all consistent with something unplanned happened to Keith back in 1997. College for Keith was a bit of a change. In high school, he had been one of the biggest stars on his team. But at college, everyone on the team had been high school stars. So competition for playing time and the drag of college itself weighed on Keith, and he decided to drop out of college. But Keith didn't come away from college without something gained, because he had found love with a fellow student there, a girl named Carrie. The two hit it off, and before long they were dating and soon engaged.

Keith left Gainesville to return home to Wichita Falls, where he lived with his family. Carrie stayed behind to finish her schooling, and she planned to move in with Keith in their own apartment in Wichita Falls when school ended. The plan was for them to take things slow and eventually set a wedding date. In the spring of 1997, Keith found himself out of school, jobless, and back at home. While the time off allowed Keith to reunite with some of his old high school friends, he was sort of at a crossroads, but he knew that he had plans. He wanted to get married.

He wanted an apartment that he and Carrie could share. and although Keith never planned to get into sales, he landed a job as a salesman at Ron Roberts Ford on Jacksboro Highway in Wichita Falls, and he quickly took to it and found that if he hustled, he could make good money there. One added benefit was that Keith, after just a few weeks at the dealership, was able to drive a demo vehicle, which would allow him not to have a car insurance bill. the job paid well at times but the hours were long typically on a weekday keith would work 12-hour days and on saturdays he'd get off at 6 p.m. To unwind after work, Keith would often hang out with friends including some of his old buddies that he had recently become reacquainted with after coming home from college. Well he got redshirted in baseball his first year out. He got kind of down about it so He finished that first year and decided not to go back and came back here and kind of traveling from us back to New Mexico and then came back here and then got his job at the dealership and was living here until the last month.

And then he moved out. There's probably a lot of things we didn't know when he went off to college. And I mean, even when he came back, you know, being older, over 18, you know, we didn't, he didn't share a lot of that kind of stuff with us. And there's a lot of things, you know, we wish we had known back then, but we didn't. And I think dealing with anxiety probably caused them maybe, you know, to drink a little bit or, you know, do some other substance just to help calm them down kind of changes. the way his brain felt or something because we didn't notice in high school. He was awfully, awfully shy and like said,

had a lot of like social anxiety and, you know, all that, really nervous in certain circumstances. So I think, and we were pretty kind of overprotective here at the house. So when he went off to college, it was probably like,

oh, man, I'm all to myself now. I can do whatever I want. So I have pretty typical, you know, college kids, you know, getting away from the parents, you know, kind of spreading their wings and doing what they want to do. But we really didn't know, like, who he was hanging around with too much, you know, at the college there, which is mainly just the baseball players that we knew of.

And then when he only stayed the one year when he came back here, we really didn't think he was hanging around his old high school buddies just because he was working. much. His job was like 12-hour days, so we just assumed, you know, like typical adults, you know, you just go to bed early if you're going to be working all day. But I think he was going out in the evening times, and he got hooked back up with some of the other high school friends that last month. Keith was doing well at the dealership, and the money he was making allowed him to get an apartment of his own in April 1997 at the Fountain Gate Apartments, which was located at 52, T. Towers' apartment was number 277. The address was perfect because it was only about two and a half

miles from his folks' home on McNeil Avenue. He'd be able to visit them easily enough when he wanted to. The timing was perfect because Carrie was finishing up her schooling in May and would be able to join Keith in their apartment. On weekend, she would visit Keith in the apartment, bringing a few of her belongings each trip. On Friday, May 9th, Keith went along with his parents to Gainesville to attend Carrie's. graduation. The next day, Saturday, May 10th, Keith worked his scheduled shift at the dealership from 8 a.m. until he got off at 6 p.m. It was a good day because Keith had sold a couple of cars, so he was due some commissions. But because he had to wait until payday, which was a few days away to receive the commissions, Keith was short on cash. So when he chose a demo car for the weekend,

a red Ford Mustang, he filled out a gas voucher so he wouldn't have to spend his own money on gas. It was a productive work week for Keith. And he was excited to start the weekend. He had made plans with friends to hang out after work. And I spent a lot of time in the car business. And Saturdays were a good day usually. And that was the day where you'd really work hard and expect to make some sales. so I could see Keith being excited, making some commissions, and, you know, wanting to go out and have a good weekend to celebrate.

Now, I was never in the car business more, but I can imagine that Saturday would be a good day because a lot of people are off. If you're going to buy a car, it seems like Saturday would be a great day. The guys I worked with in the car business, we all hated working Saturday. Nobody wanted to be working Saturdays, but you knew it was going to be a good day, usually. The car business is a little bit different from a lot of jobs in that your hours are different. You work a lot of 12 hour days. You have a day off during the week and then work the Saturday. So it takes some getting used to, but it sounds like Keith was adapting here and doing pretty well.

After work on that Saturday, Keith went back to his apartment, showered and changed out of his work clothes. At around 9.40 p.m., he spoke to his fiancé Carrie on the phone. She was in Dallas with her parents. Everything was normal in their conversation, and Carrie told Keith she'd see him the next day on Sunday when she came to their apartment. For her part, Carrie was excited because she was going to start her training at Enterprise Rennacar in Wichita Falls on Monday the 12th, but she was also excited about spending a relaxing day together with Keith. She told Keith she'd be at the apartment by 2 p.m., and since that Sunday was Mother's Day,

they planned on going to see Keith's stepmom, Deborah. After that, they said their goodbyes. be the last time they ever talked to each other. That night, Keith and a friend of his who was a fellow Ron Roberts employee named Chris and Chris's girlfriend, Michelle, went out muddy. Beforehand at around 10 p.m., they stopped off at the Fina gas station on McNeil Avenue off of Kel Boulevard. Security footage from the gas station confirms that Keith was there that night with Chris and

Michelle, Keith used Carrie's Fina credit card to purchase some food. Chris was over 21, so he purchased some beer for the three of them. From the gas station, the group headed to a nearby McDonald's on Southwest Parkway, where Chris and Michelle bought themselves some food. The three then went mudding for about 45 minutes behind Memorial Stadium in a black SUV, which was also a demo car from Ron Roberts Ford. And I don't know if you've done any mudding, but we used to do some mudding where I grew up, and it's just basically a bunch of people with four-wheel drives go out on typically a Saturday night, and they drive around and do some four-wheel and go through the muds, splash some water, half the time you end up getting your vehicle stuck, and someone else has to tell you out.

But it's usually a good time, and it's usually harmless fun. What about you? Have you ever done that? dude i live in the middle of what is a country song so yes i have done some mudding in the past i'm in middle america man mudding cow tipping you know all that stuff occurs where i live yeah and it's it's usually harmless fun everybody stays out of trouble you know there might be a little beer or maybe somebody has a little bonfire going but usually it's it's something that a lot of people do to pass some time and there's no harm that comes from it the night was pretty uneventful for the trio. Just a typical night of unwinding and having some fun. Afterward, they headed to a nearby car wash to get the mud off the SUV. It was at this point that Keith mentioned that he had to get

home because he was going to meet up with someone just after midnight at 1215. Chris and Michelle didn't ask Keith who he was meeting or where the meeting would be happening. They dropped them back off at the Fountain Gate apartments in time to make his meeting. It was about 11.45 p.m. Chris and and Michelle watched Keith walk up one of the two flights of stairs towards his unit. He was carrying three of the beers that they had bought with him. They drove off and didn't see whether he made it into his apartment. Detective Loughlin recapped the timeline of Keith's night. Just to make a quick rundown on, I'm not sure how much of it will be covered in your presentation.

But Chris and Keith worked together at the Ford dealership that day. I had previously, I think when I had spoken to you before, I may have even given you an incorrect timeline there that he'd worked from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. He actually worked from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. And when he got off work at 6, he took this demo 96 Red Ford Mustang home to his apartment. He only lived in that apartment for less than a month. He moved in in April. So it's just a little over a month had he been in that apartment.

And Chris took home this Nissan Pathfinder as a demo and came over with Michelle to Keith's apartment. And it would have been around 930, 940-ish. in the evening when they came over. And it was a plan to get together. They're going to go riding around. They're going to go stop by a few different parties and just hang out with, you know, young people do this all the time. Again, two colleges in our town.

It's not unusual at all for college kids or even seniors in high school to run around and hang out at different people's places for different parties on the weekend. So they stopped by a convenience store, and visual investigators found the charge receipt that Keith had used. used there to make a purchase and they found the video recording that he was there to make that purchase. They bought some beer and they went riding around. When they took him back to his apartment, they made the quick stop at a car wash to hose off all the mud that had been on their pathfinder. They went off-roading by the lake after they stopped by a party. They were hosing

the mud off and at some point Keith makes mention to them during the evening that he needed to be home because he was expecting to meet up with somebody later on. And so they took him back to the apartment. They dropped him in the parking lot. They saw him go up the stairs, but they didn't watch him go into his apartment and they left. Later that morning, Keyes folks were leaving their house when they noticed a red Ford Mustang parked in the church parking lot across the street from their home. It stood out for a couple of reasons. One, because it was a flashy looking car that looked out of place in the church parking lot. But the other reason it stood out was because it was parked in the very same spot.

Keith would always park in. In fact, Keith parked in that spot so often, the church had asked him not to park there anymore. At the time they saw the car, they didn't know that it was Keith's demo. The last time they had seen him, he was driving a different vehicle. The man's just figured that the car had been left there by someone going to the church for Sunday services. The man saw the Mustang at around 10 a.m. when they were on their way to a service at another church. But when they got home around noon, the car was still there.

That afternoon at around 1 p.m., Carrie called Greg and Debra from her and Keith's apartment. She was worried because when she arrived there, she expected Keith would be there to greet her, but he wasn't. She wanted to know if Keith was at their house, or if he had been to church that morning. but Greg and Debra hadn't seen Keith since Friday night, when they all traveled home together after Carrie's graduation. As Carrie looked around the apartment, she got the impression that Keith hadn't slept in their bed because his work clothes from the day before that he had changed out of were still on the bed.

She also found some muddy clothes that he appeared to have been wearing when he went out mudding. On the kitchen counter, there were two full, unopened cans of beer, and one can of beer about half empty from the night before. Besides that, nothing else in the apartment seemed off. Carrie went to Greg and Debra's house and they all waited for Keith to come back, figuring he was somewhere nearby. But as the hours ticked by, they all grew more worried. The next day on Monday, May 12th, Keith still hadn't turned up and he didn't show up for work either.

Greg and Debra called the Wichita Falls Police Department to report Keith missing. While the man's waited for police, they thought about the Red Mustang, parked near their home. they could see it out the window of their house. It was so close, and they decided to investigate it. They still didn't know that it was Keyes Demo, but felt it was suspicious that a Ron Roberts dealership vehicle would be parked nearby when their son, who worked there, was missing and parked in the very same spot. He used to park in. They found that the car was locked, but the lack of a flashing light on the dash indicated the alarm system hadn't done. been set. They found the trunk was somewhat ajar. It was locked, but it wasn't pushed closed all the

way. When we went out to look at this car after Carrie had called us, it was Sunday afternoon after church, we figured out maybe that was the car over there. We went outside and sure enough, it's still parked there. And we say, we were told to say it was on the church park. parking lot, but it's right next door to us. It's at the church offices. That's how close it is to us. So when we walked outside to walk up to the car, you could not tell that the trunk was popped on that car. As we got closer, I lifted up on the trunk lid and there was a panel that was pushed out on the driver's side like someone had got something out of that car. Now the car was locked up.

You couldn't get inside of it. So the next day I had called the dealership and asked them if they had a second set of keys for this car. They said they did not. They sent out a locksmith. So the locksmith was able to get in the car within 10 or 15. minutes, but it took them, I don't know, three, four, five hours to key the car to get it started. He was the only other one in it when all this was happening. Well, when they picked it up from the dealership and Chris called back in and told us that,

I called up the locksmith and he said he did not adjust that seat. Detective Loughlin provided more details about the discovery of the Mustang and any potential clues it may have held. Doc, 1996 Ford Mustang. It would have been red in color. We later located, of course, we looked at it that day. So how that worked was on Sunday afternoon evening, Greg and Deborah and Kerry are working the phones and they're driving around and they're going by different friends' house asking if they heard or seen anything until they're exhausted and they've exhausted all their options and they figured, okay, he's going to show up tonight. He'll show up in the morning. He's got to work tomorrow.

When he didn't, that's when they kind of realized this car is still parked here. He didn't come home. That's when they called us. They called us at about 7.10 in the morning on the 12th. made the report over the phone to the front desk officer, and then that desk officer dispatched a patrol officer out there to where the car was on McNeil Avenue here in our city. And that officer got there, and he found a new car. He found a, it's a brand new car.

So those things are going to be put on the lot, clean and polished, and it did not. There was no signs of any kind of foul. play was locked up. It was reported to him that the parents found the trunk was popped. It wasn't standing open, if you will, with the lid all the way up, but you can tell that it had been popped and it was open. So they looked in the trunk, didn't see anything. They noticed that part of a, like a panel on the inside of the trunk liner was pulled back, but that was it. They didn't see anything else, and then they closed it. So when the patrolman got there, he can't even get in the trunk

to see what they're describing. He can't get in the car. He can just look in through the rolled-up windows. And again, it's one of those college kid went out drinking with his friends and didn't come home. We believe this to be his car. Then the folks were able to contact the Ford dealership, and they said, yeah, he did, in fact, have a red demo, and they're like, well, it's over here, and we don't know where he's at. So the Ford House later sent an employee salesman or a mechanic. I don't know which, but somebody came over to pick up the car with a spare set of keys. And they took it back and they detailed it because it had been out. Just like if someone customer was the test drive it, they cleaned it up and put it back on the lot for sale.

So when the detectives went to the dealership to see the car, it had already been detailed clean and there was nothing found on it. As you heard, both Greg Mann and Detective Lothlin mentioned, when the man's looked inside the Mustang, they noticed that a rear side panel was hanging down, not locked in place. This is a kind of panel that covers up a little compartment, where people would typically store tools or a jack. None of Keith's belongings were inside the car, and there were no empty soda cans or receipts like his parents expected to find,

and they noted that the interior of the Mustang was incredibly clean. There was still a cassette tape in the deck of the car, stereo, though. The tape was really the only sign of anyone having driven the car. As they puzzled over the vehicle and whether or not Keith had parked it there, they thought about an incident that occurred in the overnight hours, Saturday and Sunday. At around 1.15 a.m., one of Keith's sisters thought she heard a car in the church parking lot, but she didn't get out of bed to check. By the time Greg checked for the paper early in the morning, the Mustang was already parked there. We just missed an opportunity. My daughter's bedroom window, you can actually see the location of where this car

would have been parked. And I had stayed up late with her talking. She's about 12 and we'd stay up late. And the only thing it was is church the next day. So right about 12, I said, well, you know, I'm going to go off to bed and you need to get to sleep too. So I left her room. And she heard a car noise about 1, 15 in the morning. So if I had just stayed in there or maybe if I had fallen asleep, you know, on her bed and then I heard this noise, I would have known that, okay, no car should be there, especially in the middle of the night. I would have looked out the window. But her being only 12, she's kind of a little afraid to look out the window.

So she just, you know, got up, went to the restroom, went back to bed and didn't think anything of it. But she knew, you know, a car was there. And I heard like maybe like when you. lock the door or, you know, it kind of beeps, you know, something like that. So I just, I really wish I had just stayed in there, you know, another hour or so. And I could have at least seen, okay, did Keith park that car? Was it someone else, you know, did he get in a car and go off with somebody? Did he walk off, you know, we'd have a lot of those questions answered.

Police arrived at the scene and surveyed the car. Since there was no sign of a break in and not. nothing really unusual. There was not much police could do besides take a report. They called the dealership and described the Mustang and they verified that it was theirs. The dealership didn't have a spare key for the demo. So a locksmith was sent out to cut a key for it. The salesman sent to drive the car back to the dealership noted that he didn't have to push

the seat back like he normally did after Keith had driven a car. this made Keyes family wonder if he was actually the last one who drove the Mustang. The Mustang was driven back to the dealership and cleaned to go back out on the lot. So there was a missed opportunity to fully process the car for any kind of clues or evidence. It wasn't until sometime much later on that detectives tracked down the car after it had been sold that they were given permission by the owner to search it. and they even did some luminal testing, but found nothing of interest. But you have to believe that by the time they were able to examine that Mustang, it had been cleaned who knows how many times.

So perhaps things like prints or other evidence may have been lost. I think we also need to talk more of about the panel in the back of the Mustang that was apparently removed. This is the kind of area where there may be a. a jack store, tools, that kind of stuff. Some people have speculated that perhaps whoever drove that car and parked it there took something out of that compartment. And that speculation has ranged from drugs to money, but we really don't know what was

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That's F-O-U-N-D.com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by lead bank member FDIC. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. What's emergency? We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and Water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Keith has never been seen since the night he walked up the stairs to his apartment.

He was supposed to deliver one of the cars he sold on Saturday to the client. on Monday the 12th, the same day that Carrie was supposed to start her new job in town. He was also set to receive a commission check for about $300 on Monday, and payday was on Thursday, the 15th, which would have paid another $500. Keith never used Carrie's card after the gas station trip, and he left about $100 in his own savings account that has never been touched. All told, Keith left almost the equivalent of $1,500 in today's value, untouched or uncollected. Because Carrie was due to move in, he was due to move in,

just hours after Keith went missing. Some people, including the authorities, thought that Keith had gotten cold feet, couldn't deal with the stress, and ran off, and we'd be back in a few days. That thought even crossed his family's mind. There have been some tips over the years, and investigators have conducted several interviews, but nothing has led to the discovery of Keith's whereabouts. Chris and Michelle, the last people known to have seen Keith, have been cooperative with police. Keith's folks, Greg and Debra, have also been cooperated with police and have passed multiple polygraph tests. Well, in 2020, Debbie and myself, we both took polygraph test, this second one I've taken. We passed the thing that I think most about is not being there to help Keith.

If something happened to him and if he did pull this car over here and he would, went with someone or whatever, not being there to help him. You don't know how much guilt I have not being able to help him. As far as them polygraphing me or doing whatever they need to do, no, I don't have a problem with it at all. My motto is to find him. I need to find him. I'm almost 65 years old. I've got health problems.

I want to find my son. And I want to find you before I pass from this earth. So, no, I don't have a problem with them, whatever they want to do. These new polygraphs are different than what I took before. You're hooked up different. They've used a, like a computer, like a laptop, I think is what it was, and then put something under your feet. I don't remember doing that on the first one I took.

But they asked, he just, detectable. Laughlin, the first one I took, they asked a lot of questions, yes or no. And this last one's the same way, yes or no. But there was all five questions that they asked us. So he doesn't get into what I did on the first one. But these five questions they ask you, if you, I think that if you have something to do with his disappearance or no something, it's going to show. Keith's fiance, Carrie, has also been cooperative. Carrie was so afraid after Keith went missing to stay in the apartment alone

that she decided to stay with Keith's family for a while in their home until her parents picked her up and took her to their home in El Paso, Texas. Carrie stayed in touch with Keith's family for a while, but she's since fallen out of touch with them. The dealership Keith worked at, Ron Roberts Ford, didn't stay in business very long after Keith went missing. And it wasn't until sometime later that rumors really, began to swirl about some shady things going on at that dealership, including things like gambling

and drug dealing. Keith's parents told us that Keith had even made a comment to carry that he had a basketball bet out and that if he hit, they wouldn't need to worry about rent for a few months. We heard that they were running drugs inside them cars from here to Dallas, is what I've heard, just things like that. The business that I had at that time, people would come in the bus station, or and just tell me things, you know, and what was going on there and that sort of thing. But before that, I didn't know, had no idea. Yeah, we had never heard anything like that. But then again, like I said, we're pretty much homebodies and, you know, we don't, we're not,

we didn't go in the bar scene or anything like that. So I'm sure there was a lot of talk. We just didn't hear it. Yeah. And we just didn't know. and we were clueless. If we had known that, we definitely wouldn't have wanted Keith to work there. We asked Detective Laughlin about the dealership and whether it was looked into in relation to Keith's case.

Yeah, I trust implicitly that the investigators that worked before me, I do not question any of their work. And what they did with their interviews and the people that did taken past polygraphs back then and how they vetted that, I'm confident in what. in their work. The key to what happened to Keith Mann likely lies with the person he was supposed to meet with at 12.15 a.m. The question is, though, who could Keith have been meeting after midnight? Nobody in the family knows who that was. His fiance doesn't know who that was. And Chris and Michelle, who were the last people known to have seen Keith, don't know who that person was. There's been some speculation that perhaps Keith had a relationship with someone that he wanted to keep secret.

But there's really no evidence that this was true. Keith had also reunited with some of his old friends, but besides that, there wasn't this endless pool of people in Keith's life. Police checked out everyone they could and made it known that they wanted to speak with anyone who may have had contact with Keith after midnight when he disappeared, but no one ever came forward, claiming to be that person. Some people have speculated, what if there really was no person Keith was meeting? What if he made that story up as a way to plan a story to cover up the fact he was leaving his old life to start a new one? I think the issue with this morph is that there's really nothing to back that up. And as we mentioned, Keith,

left behind money, money he could have used to get started with the new life if he really was getting ready to start one. Also, according to everyone that interacted with Keith that last day, he was acting completely normal, not stressed out, or worried or anxious at all. I think it's worth reviewing the clues from that night. The church parking lot space where Keith's car was found was interesting because it was the very same spot he was known to parking before being asked not to park there? Is it possible that he himself drove the car there to meet someone and planned on driving it away before the church staff noticed it? But something happened to him and he couldn't get back to move it? Or was it planted there in that spot to throw people off

and make them think Keith parked it there? That scenario may point to someone who knew Keith's habits. That's where my wife and myself disagree. She always thought he parked the car there because that's where he parked in high school. And not only that, I mean, it was like exactly how he parked as far as how far it was pulled up. And a lot of people over the years have parked in that space. And nobody ever pulls up as far as how he did. So whether it was muscle memory or, you know, something like that. So as soon as I saw it, I was almost 100% convinced that he did drive it there,

park it there and then what off is somebody. But then we found out that the salesman who came picked it up to take it back to the dealership. He said that, well, I didn't have to adjust the seat when I got in it. And I always have to when I get in after Keith. So he noticed, you know, that there was it was pushed far back. So then we're like, well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he didn't, you know, park it there. Maybe somebody else did. So it. It's confusing because like I said, it can go either way. There are signs that he did park it there, signs that he didn't park it there. And then also he was not supposed to park there any longer.

The new preacher that just came in to the church here did not want him parking a car there. So, and I told him that when he was driving these cars, I said, Keith, don't be parking the cars over there. They don't want you parking there anymore. So he knew that as well. Keith's parents also had a chance to review surveillance footage from the Fina gas station where Keith, Chris and Michelle stopped for beer. Everything appeared normal as far as Keith's appearance on the video. And it backed up what Chris and Michelle had told police. That surveillance video showed the beer purchase, beers that were later found in Keith's apartment.

So from all of the clues, it seems there is no. no doubt Keith entered his apartment. It's what happened after that that remains a mystery. Then again, do we know that Keith made it inside his apartment and that he was the one that set those beers down on his counter? For what it's worth, police seemed to think so.

They took him back to the apartment. They dropped him in the parking lot. They saw him go up the stairs, but they didn't watch him go into his apartment and they left. Later on, when Kerry, Keith's girlfriend at the time, got to Wichita Falls and got to the apartment the next morning, or next afternoon, she had found some beers on the counter, just as Chris and Michelle had said,

hey, when we dropped him off, he took one that he already had open and he took a couple more for later on. She found those there in the apartment. She found the clothing that had mud on it, where he had gotten out of the truck to help wash it off and gotten some mud onto his pants and stuff. She found that there in the apartment. And she noted that the bed had not been slept in. So the sheets, the bed was made, hadn't been pulled down. There had been no impressions that somebody had laid in that bed or slept there.

Since many of the details of Key's final night are details supplied by his friend Chris and Chris's girlfriend, Michelle. It may only be logical to ask, have they been truthful and cooperative with the investigation? and Detective Laughlin says yes, they have. Yes, they have been truthful and cooperative from the beginning. As I said, they would have been first persons that the initial investigators talked with and then followed up with a polygraph exam, which they agreed. And Chris took one. And once he took his and passed his, he was, Michelle was Chris's girlfriend.

And so she knew Keith because Chris, Chris knew him. And Chris would hang out where they were co-workers. They worked together, Chris and Keith. And so she would have known him through that arrangement and been around him whenever he was around visiting with Chris. So once Chris had passed his polygraph, with the reported activity of them, all three being together, they didn't even ask or get Michelle to take a polygraph. It's not as if she wouldn't or she didn't. It's just they didn't see a need once Chris had agreed, taken his and passed it. They were able to corroborate what they said based on their timeline of activity.

They were interviewed separately without hesitation, passed the polygraph exam. They didn't have anything to do with his disappearance or nowhere he might be, which is, of course, that's where everybody's going to look, is who are the last people to see him. But just because they may have been the last persons to see him or report to the police that they saw him, obviously. if something nefarious happened to Keith, then technically they were not the last people to see him.

Whoever did something to Keith was the last person or persons to see him. So it seems as if in the eyes of police, Chris and Michelle, the last people known to have seen Keith have been cooperative and they don't seem as though they have anything to hide. What about Keith's fiancee, Carrie? Now, Carrie had been in the apartment. She got there. She found it locked up. To me, that's indicative of either if something happened to him there at the scene, that whoever the offender could have been or the involved person would have had to use a key

that locked a deadbolt when they left. So she had a key. On the weekends, she would come back to Wichdaw Falls, and she had done that in April with this apartment. So she had a key, and she used their key to let herself in, found the doors locked, found the lights off, and found the beers on the counter, found the clothing in the bathroom on the floor, and looked like the bed had not been slept in. There wasn't anything. Furniture turned over, questionable, you know, signs at the apartment that would have led

anybody to believe that foul play was involved at that time. She started calling right away when she got there and he wasn't there because when Chris and Michelle arrived on Saturday evening before they went out and Keith left with them to go out for the night. He was on the phone with Carrie. And they had a phone conversation where she said, bed. So backing up again, on Friday the night is when Carrie had her college graduation. And so Keith went to the college graduation ceremony there in Gainesville. And Carrie left there,

Gainesville, with her parents to kind of go on a little vacation getaway family outing after her college graduation before she starts her career and starts working. But she went with them to Dallas-Fort Worth area, and Keith drove back to Wichita Falls. So she called him Saturday evening and said, hey, you know, how was your day? You know, they talked about what they had done that day, you know, her and her family and the places they went and the sites they were to see. And he even told her, I'm going out with Chris and Michelle. We're going to go running around for a little while.

And she said, okay, well, I'll be in tomorrow afternoon. So he knew he would have known she was coming in on Sunday afternoon and that she would have known he was going out with Chris. And so that information corroborates. She shared that immediately when she got there on Sunday after having a conversation, she fully expected to find Keith at the apartment. And when he wasn't, then she started working the phone and trying to find out from Chris and Michelle, hey, what's going on? No, we dropped him off.

She went knocking on doors, going to these different friends that she knew, knew him. and she went over to Keith's parents' house right away, called them. Have you seen him? She was helping any way she could. She was scared to stay at the apartment. She would not go back at that apartment at night. She stayed with Keith's folks, but she didn't know. Nobody really knew what had happened. We've talked about the hours leading up to Keith going missing, but perhaps the answer of what happened to him may lie in the days or even weeks before he vanished. A neighbor was reported to have seen someone she thought to be Keith and another man arguing in the apartment complex's laundry room about a week or two before he disappeared.

But the man he was arguing with, and whether it was even Keith in the first place, was apparently never confirmed. Keith's parents recall the last time they saw him, a full day before he went missing. The day Kerry graduated from North Central Texas Junior College. He showed up to the graduation ceremony late and blamed it on having to head back home after he had left on his way to the school because he had left his keys in his door. After the ceremony, they all went to dinner to celebrate. And as was reported on Texas homepage.com news, Keith seemed real quiet, according to Greg.

Keith's sister added that on the way from the ceremony to the restaurant, Keith seemed distracted. She had to ask him more than one question multiple times before he answered, like he was lost and thought. Keith's parents were meeting Carrie's parents, their future in-laws for the first time, and Keith's distant behavior was simply charged. chalked up to stress about that event. They were headed back from the restaurant in separate

cars at around 1 a.m. When it came time for Greg and Debrer to turn on the McNeil Street, Keith flashed his lights as a little goodbye and continued on his way. It was the last time Keith's family ever saw him. We talked earlier about some of the things that Keith was rumored to have been involved in, including gambling. Sometimes when digging into a missing person's case, investigators find hidden clues about that person or secret parts of their life that may be connected to their disappearance. We asked Detective Loughlin if there was anything about Keith's life that was revealed during the investigation. When I first got the case, I had heard and seen a lot of different rumors about, you know, him being involved with illegal gambling and narcotics and the

different things like that. So we're looking at that and we've looked at that and, you know, we can say that, He probably had a part of his life that his close friends and family didn't know 100%, or it hadn't seen, you know, every side of Keith, if you will. He wasn't depressed. He didn't suffer from any mental illness. But, yeah, he was probably using some drugs of different types with different people that not all of his friends knew about. He placed bets with some folks on different things.

But, you know, a lot of times people will do that. that and, you know, an office pool, if you will, a Super Bowl squares, you know, that could be considered gambling. It could be as simple as that, but there hasn't been any evidence that he's come up that say, oh, he owed a bunch of money to a bookie or something like that. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but there's just different aspects of Keith's life that the previous investigators and my review of the case kind of uncovered that, When the report was made, even his family didn't know about, I didn't know he was running with certain folks or doing certain things.

One rumor that has come up repeatedly in Keese case that both the mans and the police are aware of was that Keese remains were buried under concrete someplace in Wichita Falls. The location varies in the various versions of the rumor. sometimes it's supposedly in concrete on the former dealership property where Keith worked. Other times it's a different location. We asked Detective Loughlin to address this rumor as well as some other tips that have come in. Yes, there's been a lot of different areas. As I said, we had over 20 something tips that have come in on where he could be. And we've had him from he's working as a gas station attendant down in HICO to what's

you just described as being buried somewhere. Lots of several of those have been checked and some of them are still in the process of being checked. I think when we communicated earlier about setting up a time to talk about this case, I have some stuff that's in a lab right now that's being analyzed on a tip that came in that said, hey, this could be Keith somewhere else. And so we're still waiting to get an answer back on that DNA analysis to see. Could it be him or is it not him?

So we have had lots of tips. We have looked into a lot of them. And I think there's still more information out there again. I think there's people that know. And of course, I understand motivations of people that are involved are definitely don't want to have their activities uncovered by the police and other people that may be involved or have knowledge may just be afraid. Keese disappearance is currently considered a homicide investigation.

As much as Keese family would like. like to believe that he's still out there someplace living a life and that he's happy. They really don't believe that's the case. But they still desperately want to know what happened to him. Well, it's taken a toll off me bad as far as being stuck like I was telling you earlier. It seems to me I can't move on or we can't move on as a family. We're stuck. And I want to know where my son.

is and what happened to him. As far as my health, it's failing me. It's all the emotions that you can, you can imagine. I've been through all of them and I'm still going through them. And it's just the constant stress. Stress. It's not good to have, you know, your cortisol levels get elevated and to have this constant stress for 25 years and, you know, going back and forth, back and forth,

you know, especially in the beginning, you know, just it was, it was terrible, you know, it was like the worst thing to go through. Still is. Yeah. So I want to find him and I appreciate y'all's help. Thank you and please keep it out there for me and us, please. Keith's DNA profile has been entered into NamUs and if his remains are discovered, this mystery may be solved one day.

As of May 2018, there was a $3,000 reward from crime stoppers and a $7,000 reward from a private source for information that led to the arrest of the person or persons involved in Keith Mann's disappearance. But in an effort to find out the truth about what happened to Keith, that reward is being increased. I'd like to add that I have met with our crime stoppers coordinator, and he met with the Board of Directors for our crime stoppers, and they have agreed to raise the reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Keith as confirmed through DNA analysis to $25,000. If you have information about the disappearance of Keith Mann, please call the Wichita Falls Police Department and Detective John Lothlin directly. He's looking to hear from anyone that may be able to help find out answers in Keith's case, and he believes that there are people out there that have information about Keith's disappearance. I believe that enough information has been developed in this investigation that something happened to Keith, and there were people involved, something nefarious happened to him,

and that there's going to be people that know about that, either because they were involved in some way, shape, or form, either before, during, or after, they're going to have knowledge of that, and I would appeal to, to those folks to say, if you've got a brother or a sister or a child of your own, just imagine them not coming home one day and the anguish that the parents suffer, we're not having an answer. We just want an answer for these folks. We want to find Keith, and we want to give that closure to the family that's been wondering for 25 years what happened to their son.

My phone number is 940-761-7762, and that's to the CIS secretaries, and then they will transfer the call to me. They can email me, my email address, John.lawflin at WFPD.net. And then if they want to remain anonymous, there's two things they can do. They can call our crime stoppers, which is 322-9888. or if they're calling long distance, the toll-free number, I think, is 1-800-3-22-988. We also have a Crime Stoppers website that is WFcrime.com. Any information that they may have about this is,

I'm asking for any help that we can get that will help us get answers for the family. And that website that I gave you, it's got to submit a tip there. The benefit to that going through the website, if the person wants to remain anonymous and won't call me or email me, it does give us an ability for them to remain anonymous, and we can still get a back and forth communication with them.

So if they submit a tip and I have a follow-up question, my crime stoppers coordinator can send back a question and keep this tipster anonymous the whole time. We can have a complete exchange of, well, what color was the car and what time did you see it and those kinds of things so we can flesh out that information better. So submitting a tip through the website at WFcrime.com gives us the ability to reach back out and ask for clarification.

Calling the toll-free number leaves the tip and it'll come to me, but I don't really, there's no way for me to find the tipster to follow up with. and then if they feel so urged to just contact me directly, I will stop whatever I'm doing and talk to them or set up a meeting through email so I can get the information they have to deliver. You can also visit the missing manproject.com for information about Keith,

a summary of the circumstances of his disappearance, flyers, and tons of photos of Keith. That website was started by, Keith's sister Brittany as a senior design project for the International Academy of Design and Technology in December 2012. Thanks once again to our friends Nick and the Captain over at True Crime Garage. Be sure to listen to their coverage of this case. We'd also like to thank Greg Mann Sr.

and Deborah Mann as well as Detective John Loughlin for coming on to help us tell Key's story. If you want to hear the full interviews with the Manns and Detective Loflin, we'll be putting them on our Patreon feed for our patrons. so be sure to check them out. There's over two hours of interviews, and there's just no way that we could fit all that into this episode. Thanks also goes out to Sunday Landon for help with research and writing in this episode. So Morphe, as we wrap up this case,

there's no doubt that it's an extremely puzzling one. 25 years is a long time for friends and family to wonder what happened to their loved one. It's part of the reason, Morph, why you and I want to, wanted to team up with Nick and the captain to try to really kind of get as much information out around the anniversary of Keith's disappearance as we could. I think the one thing for me to take away from this one is that, you know, police are still actively working this case. They're still trying to figure out what happened to Keith. I'm sure there's a lot of information that they have that they're not able to share. That seems to happen.

quite a bit in the unsolved cases that we do. And I always think that in these types of cases, there's no way for us to really know everything that's going on behind the scenes. You know, what do police really know? Are they looking at specific people? Are they trying to build evidence against someone or a group of people? Some of that may come out later. And a couple takeaways I had, and you sort of mentioned it, is 25 years for his family, not having answers.

It's tough. And you can hear it in their words in the audio of them talking, how this is weighed on them and how it still affects them. And there's just been so many different rumors to weed through and angles to look at. And unfortunately, there's just nothing solid that gives police a direction to head in, because it's all unsubstantiated rumors, things like that. I don't think there are any real solid clues which way to head in. But that's also the reason why it's so important to talk about these cases and to tell these stories.

Someone may hear this and think, okay, I know something. I don't know exactly what it means. Maybe now's the time. 25 years has gone by. Now is the time to reach out to the police and tell them this little nugget of information that I have. It may be nothing or it could very well be the thing that breaks this case wide open. Yeah, I think that's what police are definitely hoping for and why they cooperated with us to help tell Key's story because they are asking anyone that has the slightest bit of information or hearsay to come forward, even if it's a small tip or that people

think that's really nothing. It's not important. Let them decide that. Just if you hear something, if you know something, just contact Detective Loughlin and he'll decide if it's something that's worth pursuing. And it's one thing that I always think about in these unsolved cases, you know, is there someone out there who has this little, you know, sliver of information? And it's one thing. You know, but they've just never done anything with it because they've always kind of felt like, well, either the police already know it, so I don't want to bother them or it really doesn't mean anything. So I'll look foolish if I reach out. And I think, you know, from detective Loughlin's perspective, I don't want to speak to him. But my assumption is he wants to hear it all. You know,

You're not going to look foolish. If they already know it, they already know it. You're not inconveniencing them by reaching out and saying, I just want to let you know about this. Tell the police, let them make the determination of what the information means and so that they can proceed accordingly. Yeah. And one thing Keith's parents talked about off the air was how they've lost contact, lost touch with people in Keith's life from 1997, his friends, his acquaintances, co-workers, they're desperate to hear from anyone and open up lines of communication. So if anyone out there listening, new Keith man back in 1997, please reach out to Keith's parents. They're desperate to hear and they'd like to open up some kind of line of contact with you. As always, if you love the show, but you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, give us a five-star rating. Keep telling your friends about the criminology podcast.

That word of mouth is invaluable. If you want to find us on social media, we're on Twitter with the handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by searching for Criminology Podcast or by joining our Facebook discussion group, Criminology Podcast, Discussion and Fans. So more, if that is it for another episode of Criminology, but we'll be back with everyone next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike and Morph.

We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.