Criminology - Lucy Letby

Episode Date: September 10, 2023

Lucy Letby is one of England's most notorious female killers. In 2015, infants began dying in the NICU at an alarming rate at the Countess of Chester Hospital in Chester, Chesire, England. It was like nothing the hospital had experienced before or since. Nurse Lucy Letby was making infants sick, and many of them died. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the notorious Lucy Letby. Even though people voiced their suspicions to upper management at the hospital, nothing was done, and more infants died. When the details of what happened came out, the public was shocked and disgusted. Letby was convicted but continues claiming she is innocent, so she has never revealed her true motivations. But many believe she wanted to play the hero or get the attention of a married doctor for whom she had feelings. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello everyone and welcome to episode 273 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Morph. What's going on with you down there in Florida, man? Everything good? Yeah, everything is good. Knock on wood, for the most part, the storm missed us, went up the coast and, you know,

hit further up north in the panhandle area. and I feel sorry for the people up there that got damaged, but I think it could have been worse, could have been a bigger-sized storm and could have hit more of the mainland. So I do think that we got fortunate to an extent. And again, anybody that did see some bad stuff out of it, you know, my heart goes out to them.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing with those storms, right? Sometimes they're bad. Sometimes they're not as bad as what they're forecasted to be. but it's all dangerous stuff. So we hope everyone is safe. And I think you could say that about a lot of them, right? It could have been worse. And this one definitely could have been worse.

Yeah, and that's hurricane season here in Florida. You've got to deal with that through the fall. And then it sort of eases up a little bit. But every other part of the country, I think you've got tornadoes, some places, and one thing or another wildfires, whatever it is. I think everybody deals with something wherever they live.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon. shoutouts. We had Terry Lawrence, Anna, Chanel Summers, and Madison Monroe. So that's a lot of great new support. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much for all that support. It really helps the show. And for anyone out there that would like to support us, you can go to patreon.com slash criminology. Just a reminder. We're just a couple of weeks away from CrimeCon, 2003 happening in Orlando, Florida at the World Center Marriott. It's September 22nd through the 24th.

And like we did last year, we'll be having a joint criminology T-Cat meetup. And we hope if you're going to CrimeCon that you'll stop by and hang out. Yeah, we'll definitely be meeting up at the lobby lounge right in the Marriott, Saturday night, September 23rd at 9 p.m. It'll be fun. It was great last year in Vegas. And it's a good way to catch up with everyone, all your true crime friends. And if you can't make it Saturday night, no worries. You can always come by and say hi to us on.

on podcast row. All right, morph, now that we have all of that out of the way, it's time to jump into this episode. You know, for anyone listening, I think that they understand that illness or injury is a time of vulnerability and trying to get the right medical support. This is something that, you know, I've talked about on a number of shows where we're dealing with medical professionals. to me it's a very scary thought. You know, when you go in, let's say to the hospital with some type of illness, you are putting your life in the hands of medical professionals. You don't always know what they're doing. You know, we don't have the training as lay people to understand everything that's going on.

We put our trust in these people. But for premature infants, any illness or injury can easily be faced. In the neonatal intensive care unit, babies born early and newborns with serious health conditions, rely on a knowledgeable and compassionate staff to get them healthy enough to go home. Of course, most nurses on the unit comfort and grieve with families and they're overjoyed when a baby pulls through a serious situation, when they finally get to be held for the first time, or when they're ready to go home. we hope and expect that the medical personnel, the doctors and nurses will do the right thing

and help protect the most vulnerable of us young babies. But what happens when the people we trust most to help keep our little ones healthy and safe decide to do the opposite? You know, we've all heard of medical personnel who do the unthinkable and purposefully harm their patients. We've covered these cases of, doctors doing that. There have been many cases of nurses doing that as well. Nurse Lucy Lettby was one of these nurses. Lucy Lettby started working in the NICU unit when she was 20 years old.

She quickly added on to her knowledge and experience, eventually proven that she was capable of caring for infants in intensive care and becoming qualified to give the baby's medicine using a special IV. And she was also a team player. She didn't mind working overnight shifts and was often the first one to volunteer to pick up overtime that recover a shift. It was easy for her since she lived in the staff accommodation within walking distance of the unit. On the surface, she was an invaluable asset. In an article in the Guardian UK, Dr. Stephen Brewery, the head consultant pediatrician at Countess of Chester Hospital, said that Lucy was well-liked by her colleagues, and he once called her

Nice Lucy. Eventually those around her learned that this was all facade, and one grieving, mother would later say in a victim impact statement, our world shattered when we encountered evil disguised as a caring nurse. Lucy Leppie would wind up being convicted for the murders of seven babies under her care and tried to murder at least six other babies. In the summer of 2015, the Countess of Chester Hospital in Chester, Cheshire, England had a very rough two weeks. Three babies, all of them under one week old in the neonatal unit died in that very short amount of time. Staff were only used to about three deaths in that unit each year.

To have three in two weeks was not typical. A fourth newborn, a twin of one of the babies who died had also nearly died suddenly, but the staff there was thankfully able to savor. On June 8, 2015, Child A and Child B, as we have. come to call them for privacy reasons were just barely over one day old. The twins, a boy and a girl were born six weeks early. They were both doing very well when the switch from day to night shift started. At 8.05 p.m. IV fluids were given and shortly after this, the male twins' health began to deteriorate rapidly. As reported in the Guardian UK, Nurse Melanie Taylor said his heart rate

and saturations dropped. Her co-worker nurse Lucy Lettby was near the incubator and used a face mask to try and deliver oxygen to Childe Day while Taylor began to prepare adrenaline. An hour later, just before 9 p.m., Childe A died, despite the efforts of staff, who noticed an unusual discoloration of his skin. Pediatric registrar, Dr. Sally Ogden, was shocked by Child A's death. and later testified in court. It was completely out of the blue and very upsetting,

explaining, Child A. showed no signs of any problems throughout the day. He was handling well. I had no concerns at all for him, were his twin sister. Just 28 hours after the death of Child A, his twin sister also began to deteriorate. Thankfully, staff were able to effectively treat her and she recovered.

But on June 14th, Child C, who was seven weeks premature and weighed just one, pound 12 ounces, but was otherwise healthy, was suddenly in an unstable condition. Monitors beeped and wailed as he went into distress. Lucy Lettby, though she wasn't his nurse, was right there looking at the monitor. Sadly, Child C did not survive. On June 22, Child D, a newborn girl, delivered via C-section over 60 hours after her mother's water broke, had three separate medical emergencies. Hospital staff or able to stabilize her the first two times, but after the third, she passed away. It was noted that

her skin was oddly discolored, but otherwise there were no obvious signs of anything being wrong. None of the deaths or the rapid decline in health of the babies had a clear explanation. One of the nurses there texted Lucy Letby about how odd the deaths were saying, well, child C was tiny, obviously compromised in utero, child D, septic. It's child A. I can't get my head around. Dr. Stephen Brewery also knew something was wrong. He reviewed hospital records, including the medical records of the children as well as staff records.

He realized that one nurse on the unit was working each time a child had died or suddenly became ill. It was 25-year-old Lucy Letby. So more if we said early on, you staff at this hospital, we're used to experiencing about three deaths in that unit every year. And that's horrible enough. Nobody wants to think of a small baby, a newborn, not making it. Unfortunately, it does happen. But to experience this three times in the span of, you know, just a couple of. you know, just a couple of weeks.

Number one, it had to be heartbreaking for the staff. I mean, they're caring for these babies. And then you have the grieving families who are devastated. But then you get the feeling that this doctor brewery, and along with probably some of the nurses, they're thinking something's not right here. This is abnormal. What in the world is going on? on. And it's kind of this revelation. And we do see this in a lot of cases where doctors or nurses are

ultimately found to be what many call angels of death or they think they're angels of death or whatever it's, whatever it is, that they're the ones that are working every time someone dies. I think the deaths of these babies right on top of each other was so compelling because, as you mentioned, it just doesn't happen that often. You know, their yearly rate was just a few babies. And here you have that in such a short time. And I think part of that's due to science and technology advancement, the medicine they have now. You know, even if this was just 30 years ago, preemie babies didn't stand nearly as good a chance

as they do now of surviving. So maybe if this had happened back then, it would be a little bit easier to brush off as, okay, you know, we did our best, but we just didn't have the right medicine, the right tools that we need. But nowadays, I think that's just not the case. I think there's so much better stuff available to save these babies so that that made this even more of an anomaly and more noticeable by staff there. When I always wonder about, you know, like in this case, the nurses, at what point do they start kind of looking at, looking around at each other and wondering, okay, is somebody who, you know, I've worked with for X amount of years doing something they shouldn't be doing? I don't know at what point that

enters their minds because they're just going about their daily routine, but they're seeing this as something very out of the ordinary. And I think it's a pretty serious accusation. if you get to the point where you're saying, okay, I have suspicions about this person, I think I need to do something, I need to say something, you better be sure because if you make that accusation, you really can't come back from that. On July 2, 2015, Dr. Brary met with the hospital's head of nursing, Allison Kelly, and the manager of the NICU, Erring Pell, and told them of his findings that Lucy Lettby was present in all the deaths. But no changes were made by the hospital, and she continued to work with

newborns. On August 4th, 2015, Child E and Child F born seven weeks premature, were in the neonatal unit. At around 9 p.m. that night, their mother walked into their room to drop off breast milk and found Lucy Leppie tending to Child E. The three-pound baby boy was whaling, and there was blood around his mouth. Sadly, he died at 140 a.m. On August 5th, Child F, the twin brother of Child E, became very sick. And we know that Lucy Letby is going to turn out to be the monster in this story, right? There's no secret about that. What I want to talk about is the fact that the hospital didn't make any changes, didn't really put any safeguards in place despite Dr. Brewery coming forward and kind of, you know, beginning to voice his concerns.

I think this is also something that we've seen in a. number of these types of cases, whether it's doctors or nurses who are doing, you know, very evil things, a lot of times there is suspicion. Now, there may not be proof, and that's something that you have to factor in, but there's suspicion that this person might be doing something. it becomes known that, you know, they were the caregiver or at least present in all of the deaths. Yet the hospital administrators don't take that step of putting something in place where this doctor or nurse who is suspicious, let's say that, is kind of separated from patients. and then they go on to kill additional people.

And obviously it comes out later that the hospital didn't do anything. Now, what should they have done? What could they have done legally? Those are all questions to kind of factor in. Yeah, I wonder at what point do you say, okay, something's going on here. We need to get to the bottom of this and do some kind of accounting, bring everyone in question, and then whatever their processes, because this is pretty serious. And it's, the deaths and the illnesses are happening at a very high rate.

It's alarming. On September 6th, Baby G celebrated a milestone. She was 100 days old. Born 15 weeks premature, she still weighed just one pound, two ounces. But she had proven that she was a fighter. The staff was optimistic. They marked the day with a cake and a banner. At birth, Baby G.

G's chance of survival was estimated at just 5%. But 100 days later, baby G was doing well and getting stronger by the day. And then suddenly overnight, baby G became very sick and was throwing up by 2 a.m. on the 7th. She was in intensive care. She was transferred to Aeropark Hospital, where she was born to recover and then was transferred back to Countess of Chester. when she had become stable again. But on September 21st, baby G.

became ill again. Nurse Lucy Lettby was taking blood from baby G when her mom stepped out to grab a coffee. According to the Guardian UK, when the mom got back to the room, she says she saw Child G freaking out screaming and she clearly was ill and in distress. Though she managed to recover, she was left. she was left permanently physically disabled. On October 23, 2015, a baby identified as child I was doing well.

Born 10 weeks premature and weighing just two pounds, she was well on her way to going home, just as suddenly as the other seven babies had. Child I got very sick. Nurse Ashley Hudson later recalled to the court that the child was crying in a way she had never heard before. According to her, it was a loud, relentless, almost constant with no fluctuation type of crying.

Initially, staff suspected virus was to blame for child eyes woes, so her family was unable to visit her in the hospital to attempt to keep anything else from harming her immune system. Sadly, she didn't recover and passed away. Child eyes death made Dr. Brary even more suspicious than before. He reviewed more records and found that once again, nurse Lucy Leppie was working during each incident. Like Dr. Brary, Dr. Ravi Jarram was,

was suspicious of Letby and went to management. But again, no changes were made. Dr. Jeremy was told by officials at the hospital not to make a fuss. Lucy Letby's presence during each incident was chalked up to a coincidence, maybe due to her willingness to work more and help out and get involved in trying to help more often. So to me, this is even more egregious because Dr. Brewery's more suspicious. Now we have another doctor who comes in and voices concerns to management about Lucy Lettby, but no changes are made. And not only that, but the doctor is told by officials at the hospital not to make a fuss and that, you know, everything is just a coincidence. And like I said before, I think this is something that is seen many times in these cases where doctors,

or nurses kill a large number of patients. It comes out that many of these hospitals were told of suspicions about a certain doctor or a certain nurse, but they just didn't do anything or at least didn't do enough to look into it or to separate the individual from patients. And they say with doctors, you should always get a second opinion. You have the second doctor that's giving their opinion that something's going on here and this Lucy Lepe is involved in yet another death. And you think with that second opinion that the officials here at the hospital would say, okay, this isn't just one person's suspicion. Now we have two qualified doctors that are both suspicious.

You think that would be the wake-up call to finally get them to look into this closer. But sadly, that wasn't the case. And I get it. It's only suspicion. right there's no proof i mean you can prove that she was there at the time that you know each of the children died or became sick and then later died but i think even based on that wouldn't you want to see something done even if it was just to give this person a different role for a period of time uh that did not involve contact with newborn babies while

they investigated or while they sorted things out. But to do nothing, I think that's where, you know, the anger comes in. And especially, you know, if you're one of these families who later finds out that this nurse was responsible. Number one, you're going to be very upset at the hospital. There are going to be ramifications. And I'm sure we'll talk about those as we go. On February 8, 2016, a review that Dr. Brewery ordered.

found that the unexpected deaths of the infants, starting in June 2015, had similarities. Besides Lucy Lettby being on shift at the time, the report was sent to medical director Ian Harvey and Dr. Brewery asked higher-ups for an urgent meeting, but none would take place for months. At least two more children were harmed during this time. On April 9th, child L became very ill. child M, Child L's twin brother, also had a sudden medical event when his breathing and heart rate slowed dangerously. Both children survived, but Child L was left with permanent brain damage.

On May 11th, a meeting finally took place between Dr. Brary, Ian Harvey, and Allison Kelly. They were told by higher-ups to drop the matter. The hospital's official report on the matter read in part, There's no evidence whatsoever against Lucy Leppi, other than coincidence. Lucy was allowed to work on the neonatal unit with no changes made and no safeguards put in place. On June 3rd, the throat of a child dubbed Child N., who was just a few days old, began to bleed. He had a condition called hemophilia, which prevents blood from clotting properly. Heavy bleeding can happen on its own or from trauma.

Staff were eventually able to stabilize him. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman for... fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020, blood and water.

Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Lucy Letby, citing being bothered by the multiple losses of babies at work, took a vacation in Abita with two of her friends to help clear her mind. She was scheduled to return to work on the 23rd. During her trip, all was well on the unit. None of the babies there suffered any serious or unforeseen downturns in health, and none died. On June 23rd, when Lettby was back in the hospital, child O, one of a set of two-day-old triplets, was ready to go home. Suddenly, he was suffering from a medical emergency, and he didn't survive. His father later told the court, it was horrific to see, and an image I will never forget.

13 minutes after the death of Child O, his brother, Child P, became extremely ill. Staff rushed to transfer him to another hospital, but he did not survive. On June 24th, Dr. Brary called duty executive Karen Rees and demanded Lucy Lettby's removal from the neonatal unit. Lettby was finally removed from the unit pending investigation into the so-called coincidences. However, she was allowed to continue working at the hospital in the Risk and Patient Safety Office, where she had access to sensitive patient information and was responsible for escalating incident reports to the NHS. One of the factors slowing down Lucy Leppie's removal from the neonatal word was that most of the babies didn't have post-mortem examinations ordered

due to the other conditions and factors in the infant's backgrounds. Medical staff felt that they had found the cause of death of each child and post-mortem examinations are only done when they can't find the cause. The doctor on call, the night child E died, regretted not having an autopsy done. He told the court, I didn't want to make a terrible situation any worse, so I didn't put it. Bush. Based on the symptoms observed, it was believed Child E, a high-risk baby, died from necrotizing enterocolitis. With that in mind, and with the truth unthinkable, there was

no reason for an autopsy on an infant. It took months for the results of blood tests to come back and show high levels of insulin in the baby's bloodstream. Another reason Lucy Lettby was slow to be removed from caring for the babies is that the National Health Service had been fire multiple times for poor care, Chief Executive Tony Chambers seemed to feel that staff were trying to cover up for their mistakes and the low quality of care provided by blaming the preventable deaths of the infants on intentional acts. According to court testimony, though Chambers calls this a one-sided account taken out of context, multiple staff members recall him saying, well, that would be very convenient in response to their concerns about Lucy Letby having harmed multiple babies on the

unit. In short, it sounds like it was a case of cover your ass by the hospital brass. Resistance from the top tied the hands of Lettby's accusers who had exhausted all routes of communication with management and executives. Countess of Chester's director of corporate affairs and legal services, Stephen Cross is said to have been reluctant to contact police about the situation because it would turn the neonatal unit into a crime scene, interrupting care for babies there and would also be terrible for the hospital itself. So I think we have to take a step back here to break a few things down. We've had a number of doctors come forward with their suspicions about let be. we've had nurses as well. It seems as though, you know, every time it's happened,

upper management has said it's just a coincidence, we're not doing anything about it. But then at a certain point, they finally did remove her from the neonatal unit, but it seems to have taken a long time. And you have these individuals, it seems like, you know, many of them looking out more for the hospital than for these newborn infants, which in these cases always seems

very strange to me. You know, when you talk about covering your ass or not wanting the hospital to look bad, well, what's going to be worse looking than it coming out that one of your nurses has killed a large number of babies. You know, when you talk about cover your ass, you would think not having that happen would be the ultimate way to cover your ass. But it seems as though in a lot of these situations, it's more about trying to sweep things under the rug and not let anything come out that might tarnish the reputation of the hospital. But ultimately, it ends up being the worst scenario imaginable. And it comes out usually that it could have been stopped much, much earlier than it ends up happening. And I think one thing we can't lose sight of is that hospitals

are really just big businesses. And while you have the doctors and nurses and medical staff that are working help people, there's another rung up the ladder that's figuring how do we say face how do we keep our publicity positive? How do we keep making as much money as we can and keep the machine running smoothly? And I think some of those people were standing in the way of this nurse being stopped sooner. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And unfortunately, this same scenario is seen in many similar cases. Two reviews of the cases in July 2016 confirmed that the deaths required forensic investigation.

By January 2017, colleagues raising the alarm about Lucy Leppie were told once again by the hospital's chief executive, Tony Chambers, and medical director Ian Harvey, that Lucy Leppie was innocent. According to Chambers, he had personally spoken to Lucy and her father for hours, and she was extremely upset about being removed from work and accused of something so terrible. She was scheduled to return to the unit in May, and doctors Brary and Jerem were told they had to apologize to Lettby for the hassle. Dr. Brary later said in court, it was just unfathomable, really. You couldn't make it up. Lucy Leppie's parents had threatened to report them both to the

medical board for targeting Lucy and getting removed from the unit. At the end of February, the doctors begrudgingly sent Lucy Lepe a letter, which read in part. We would like to apologize for any inappropriate comments that may have been made during this difficult period. As you will be aware, emotions have run high. We are very sorry for the stress and upset that you have experienced in the last year. So I think Dr. Brewery said it all when he said, you know, it's unfathomable. You can't make this stuff up. Now, obviously, at this point in time, she's not proven guilty.

But the suspicions are high. it seems so hard to believe to me that, you know, they would come out, the chief executives of the hospital and declare Lucy Lettby innocent. I get it. You can't say she's guilty, but how then can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt that she's innocent and make these doctors write this apology letter? Yeah, I think it's just the latest in a continuing trend of not doing the right thing and not doing a full investigation here. It's almost like they're wrapping it up with no official conclusion and just saying, look, let's get this out of the way finally, write her letter and let's get back to normal. In reality, we know it's not a spoiler alert. She did this stuff. So these guys were right and to just have to write this letter because they want to end this whole.

saga, it just, it seems ludicrous. Well, and it's coming on the heels of the determination, right? That some of the deaths, at least some of them, required forensic investigation. And it seemed as though Lucy Lettby was on the verge of returning to the unit to care for babies. But on April 27, 2017, a final meeting between then Cheshire, police detective, chief superintendent, Nigel Winnom, and more than one of the colleagues with concerns about Lucy, actually yielded results. Winham believed them. At the time, Lucy Letby was due to return to work in

just six days. For those who believed there was a killer on the ward, time was running out to stop another death. Winham refusing to brush the allegations off paused Lucy Lettby's return to work. there would be a thorough review of all of the cases since June 2015, but it would take some time. And Lucy was not allowed to return to the unit as planned. So finally, it seems as though we have someone who has some sense. And it may be besides the doctors and nurses who were suspicious, it certainly was not the higher-ups at the hospital. it was this, you know, detective chief superintendent who said, something is going on here.

At the very least, don't let this nurse back on the war. All of this needs to be investigated, logical, sensible. Whoa, we need more people like that in these cases. Well, I think it was clear too. He didn't have any skin in the game. He was just an outsider looking at the details, looking at the facts and saying, wait a minute, there's something going on here. And thankfully, he stepped in. Well, and to me, that's oftentimes what you need, right? You need a third party

to come in and evaluate things. We've already said the higher ups had an agenda. It was for it to not come out that something bad was happening at the hospital, to tarnish the hospital's reputation, to interrupt care for the babies. I don't think there's any doubt about that. But a third party comes in, they don't care about any of that stuff. They just want to get to the truth. And that's what this guy wanted to do. On February 14, 2018, Dr. Brerry finally found the missing piece, the smoking gun. As reported, in the Guardian, Dr. Berry said to himself, what the fuck is this, as you reviewed the medical records of Child F in relation to insulin levels. It seems as if when the body produces insulin,

a hormone called C-peptide should also rise. Aside from the fact that a normal insulin level for the infant would have been between 200 and 300, and child F's was off the charts at almost 5,000. The level of C-peptide was low. The only way this could happen is if the insulin had been administered to the infant, not created by his body. Dr. Burry knew insulin had been mixed into the baby's feeding bag. He told the guardian, it was a smoking gun. You saw it there in plain sight. If there was any iota of doubt, it was removed then.

A team of experts, looking back closer at the desk, where discoloration of the skin and the children was noted, determined that it was clear that air had been injected into the victim's stomachs or bloodstreams. The odd discoloration seen on multiple babies was due to the rest of the body losing oxygen. But the area where oxygen was injected stayed a normal color. The attack on the child with hemophilia was likely caused by the intentional rough insertion of a feeding tube and other attacks involving forced feeding milk. It was concluded that Lucy Letby was responsible for the deaths of the babies. and the sudden collapses in health by those that survived.

In short, it was felt that she continued trying to harm babies until she either succeeded or the babies she was focusing on were transferred to a different hospital. At 6 a.m. on July 4th, 2018, Lucy Leppie was arrested. In light of her actions, investigators were reviewing the medical records of over 4,000 babies born at the two hospitals let be worked at, Liverpool Women's Hospital and the Countess of Chester, between the years 2012 and 2016, as part of what has been deemed Operation Hummingbird. Detective Superintendent Paul Hughes said of the operation, this doesn't mean we're investigating all 4,000.

It just means that we're committed to a thorough review of every admission from a medical perspective to ensure that nothing is missed throughout the entirety of her employment as a nurse. So far, an additional 30 cases at Countess of Chester have been identified as suspicious. In the fallout since Lettby's arrest, hospital executive Allison Kelly left Countess of Chester Hospital in 2021 to take a position at Northern Care Alliance. And then she was later suspended from that position. As per the Guardian UK, former medical director Ian Harvey said, I was detain. determined to keep the baby unit safe and support our staff. I wanted the reviews and investigations carried out so that we could tell the parents what

had happened to their children. And former chief executive Tony Chambers added the crimes that have been committed are appalling and I am deeply saddened by what has come to light. And we talked earlier about CYA and, you know, some of these individuals are still trying to do that. because, you know, some of their actions don't look great, obviously, in light of what ultimately came out. Well, you have this Allison Kelly who's left her old job at Countess of Chester and went to

this new position at Northern Care Alliance, but the people at Northern Carolina said, hold on here. We don't feel safe with you being in the position you're in here because we don't want that same thing happening here. we don't want your poor judgment and your potential blocking a situation that might come up that should be investigated here. So they took the step of suspending her to figure out probably what to do and should they relieve her and get somebody else.

So it's interesting to see that they're being proactive with her. Well, and I just said, you know, former medical director, former chief executive, you know, These individuals who were involved are no longer in those positions. And I think for good reason. They made some really horrible decision. The parents of the infants Lucy let be attacked and killed have not gone a day without struggling since then. Some of them have had thoughts of taking their own lives. Others have begun to drink heavily.

One mother had a so-called nervous breakdown and ended up crashing her car. Some of them can't work anymore. And most have nightmares. haunting images of the grueling resuscitation efforts and memories of their newborns and pain that make it hard to function during the day. The surviving triplet sibling of child O and child P alive only because his parents insisted on a transfer to a different hospital, now at seven years old has asked his parents questions about what happened to his siblings. Child in at seven years old gags every time.

He brushes his teeth likely due to the trauma. let be caused to his throat the day after he was born. Child death is nonverbal, and child G is blind, and has quadriplegic cerebral palsy. Children not even born at the time were also affected. Baby I's mother became pregnant after her death, but before learning the truth that she was murdered. Because of this, she did not breastfeed her new baby girl in an effort to prevent passing any infection onto her like she thought she did before with baby eye.

The infant looks so much like baby eye that it was hard for her parents to overcome their grief and bond with her because they were always reminded of the baby they lost. Multiple families are now represented by attorneys and they want answers for why it took so long for Lucy Lettby to be removed from working with infants and why they never received clear answers about what was going on with the investigation into their children's deaths. And we said, right, there were going to be ramifications. And there always are in scenarios like this. There are going to be lawsuits.

And, you know, it's going to come out if there was a cover up or there were attempts to sweep things under the rug or if things just were not investigated properly. And I think you could say that all. All of that kind of occurred in this situation. Yeah, and you really have to feel for these parents. And their only way to make this hospital pay for what happened to their babies is to pay financially. And I'm sure all these parents would rather have their babies back and not have money. But as I mentioned before, this is a business.

So one way to hold them accountable is financially with a lawsuit. And that sounds like that's happening with these attorneys getting in. involved. But to me, you know, what's extremely heartbreaking is to think about these children, you know, six, seven, eight years later and, and what they're experiencing. They're alive, which is great. But they're experiencing all types of issues related to what Lucy Lettby did. And not only that, but the parents, when you hear about them having, you know, other children and the bond with those children being affected because, you know, one mother was under the impression that her breast milk had possibly caused the death of her child. That's heartbreaking,

because at the time she didn't know. Yeah, I think it just goes to show the ripple effect that let these actions had that have lasted years and affected all these different people in many different ways. Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset. This season let therapy be part of your spring cleaning. Clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness, and building something better. Grow therapy helps you get there. Whether it's your first time

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After 10-month trial, Lucy Leppie was convicted of seven counts of murder and an additional seven counts of attempted murder. She was found not guilty of two more counts of attempted murder, and the jury couldn't agree on an additional six charges of attempted murder. It's possible she could be retried in the future on those charges, but her sentence makes it unnecessary, that the families of the victims may want their day in court. On August 21, 2003-year-old Lucy Leibbley. was given a whole life sentence, which in the UK is the equivalent of life without the possibility

of parole here in the United States. She's only the fourth woman in the United Kingdom to be sentenced to life in prison. When Judge James Goss sentenced Lettby, he read a statement, saying, the great majority of your victims suffered acute pain as a result of what you did to them. They all fought for survival. Some sadly struggled in vain and died. And you know, these whole life sentences, they are not given out. over there the same way that we give them out here in the U.S. The only other three women to have received the same sentence as Lucy Lettby are Rosemary West, Myra Henley, and Joanna Dennehy, all serial killers like Lettby.

Myra Henley was responsible for the murders of five children, known as the Moore's murders with her boyfriend Ian Brady. Joanna Denehy took the lives of three men, attacked two others who survived, and planned for a total of nine, inspired by the number of law enforcement members that Bonnie and Clyde killed. She also had escape plans after her arrest

that involved cutting off an officer's fingers to be able to use them on fingerprint scanners. Rosemary West, along with her husband, Fred, killed at least nine women and her eight-year-old stepdaughter. and now Lucy Letby, with seven murdered victims and an unknown number of total victims she attacked, is among not only the worst female criminals of her day in Britain, she is being called the worst child serial killer in modern British history. Lucy Lettby has put herself in the same category as some of the worst ever in Britain. she's she's right up there and that's really saying something when you know what people like rosemary west did

myra henley you know these were very very bad individuals yeah she's certainly infamous now and people like that that kill babies children in prison they usually don't fare well and she's got a lifetime of perhaps looking over her shoulder because there's a real possibility there's other prisoners in that prison that will want to do her harm. Lucy Leppie refused to attend her sentencing, something that many find unacceptable. In the States, it seems like attending a sentencing is mandatory for the defendant, but apparently in the U.K., that's not the case. Justice Secretary Alex Chalk said of Lettby's absence in the court,

Lucy Lettby is not just a murderer but a coward, whose failure to face her victim's families, refusing to hear their impact statements, and society's condemnation is the final insult. We're looking to change the law so offenders can be compelled to attend sentencing hearings. The families read their victim impact statements to an empty chair where Lucy Leppie should have been sitting. Lettby will be housed at HM Prison Low Newton, a high security facility in Durham. Health Secretary Steve Barkley has begun the process of stopping Letpies' NHS pension. And I'm glad they are looking at changing that law because I do believe these killers should be forced to sit there in court, hear their sentence. But more importantly, hear the words of the

families as they read their impact statements. Now, most of them don't care. And for a lot of them, it doesn't hurt their feelings. They don't feel any way about it. But it's more for the families. That's what the victim impact statements are. They are a way for the victims to, you know, tell these individuals how their actions affected them, what they did to them. And, you know, to have to say them to an empty chair doesn't seem like it would mean the same as if they were sitting there, even if they refused to look at you. At least you know they're there.

They're hearing your words. They may not care, but they're hearing them. To me, Lucy's cowardice isn't surprising at all because what she did to these babies, I mean, you have to be a coward to do that to a helpless baby. So the fact she wouldn't look these families in the eye when they were giving their impact statements doesn't shock me at all. I think it's unclear why Lucy Lettby decided to target and kill vulnerable children, just babies. And we also may never know the true number of victims she harmed. Unlike many serial killers, her background was completely average.

She was an only child who went to good schools. She was well liked. She never really got into trouble. There was no known trauma, abuse, or mental illness in her history. She began killing shortly after gaining access to patients in intensive care and getting qualified to use a special type of IV. She passed the course in the spring of 2015. And by June of that year, had killed four victims. She chose her victims carefully, attacking extremely premature infants or those who had other

conditions like hemophilia that could be used to cover her tracks. I think the real mystery is why she switched from dutifully caring for, you know, vulnerable patients to killing them. She was also careful to change her methods. So not all the deaths were identical. And she did things to ensure their deaths like lacing multiple bags, not just the bag connected to the infant at the time with insulin. So they would be continuously poisoned as staff tried to help. In an effort to explain something that just may be.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, we got to talk about this because I think this came up in another case. Okay. where a nurse was lacing the IV bags. Okay. And the other nurses later found out that the IV bags that they were using were actually helping to kill. And just think more of about how devious this really is. And you have to think about the other nurses in the war who, you know, are great nurses. They're there day in and day out to help, you know, these infants.

And then they later find out that some of the IV bags that they were using to try to treat patients were actually killing them. And obviously they were not aware of what they were doing, but I imagine after learning that they may have been administered IVs with things that were harming these babies, that had to be a terrible feeling that they probably feel guilty. keep out even though they had no knowledge of it, no control. Well, you mentioned it earlier, right? The ripple effect. This is just another ripple of the actions of Lucy Leppi. You know, think about the trauma that some of these other nurses probably have experienced, probably experienced still today of knowing what happened.

And you made a good point. It's through no fault of theirs because they. couldn't have known. You assume that the IV bags contain what they're supposed to contain. In an effort to explain something that just may be unexplainable, prosecutors put forth one theory that Lucy Lepey had a crush on a married male doctor, referred to as Dr. A at trial. Outside of work, they would text and go out together, and during work hours, he would attend to the babies whose vitals were crashing. Lettby would create chances to interact with him by attacking the patients.

The day she was back from Obita, she was disappointed that Dr. A would not be working with her. As evidence by a text message, she sent him saying, boo. The same day, Child O had a medical emergency. Lucy Leppie called Dr. A despite knowing he was off the clock. Lepe denied being interested in him romantically, and he testified against her at trial. This was the first time she showed any emotion during four months of proceedings, despite the heavy subject matter. For whatever reason. After the attacks on child A and B, child C, child D, and child E and F,

Lucy Lettby looked up their parents on Facebook. She searched for them immediately after her attacks. On the anniversary of the murders and on holidays, like Christmas. All times a family would post about their loss. She had also been looking at the wife of Dr. A's Facebook without his knowledge. A search of her phone revealed that she had sent the parents of child I a sympathy card. She took a photo of the handwritten note before sending it off. It was a real privilege to care for child I and get to know you as a family. That's what the note read. Lucy's room was

very childlike with multiple stuffed animals, lots of pink and lights strung around the bed. Notes found inside her diary seem to be confessions. How can I get through it? I did this. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough. I am evil. I did this. Despite the conviction and her own admissions and her diary entries, she maintains her innocence and claims that the medically fragile children died due to their overall health combined with understaffing and poor care. It seems unlikely that she'll ever confess, so we may never understand what she was thinking. Like another nurse who attacked infants before her, one theory is that she may have factitious disorder imposed on another, formerly called Munchausen by proxy, In 1991, Nurse Beverly Alleyt attacked 13 infants in just two months. Four of them died from her actions.

In 1993, Allot was convicted of four counts of murder, 11 counts of attempted murder, and 11 counts of causing grievous bodily harm. The only explanation anyone could offer was Munchausen syndrome. There are multiple other nurses, orderlies, and even doctors who have done the same throughout their careers. often being called angels of death in the media. There are a few different types of killers that fall under the term.

There is the mercy killer who believes death will put patients out of their misery because there's nothing else that can be done for them, whether the patient is actually suffering or not. There's the sadistic killer who enjoys the control. Their position gives them over a helpless patient. And finally, the malignant hero. Someone who creates a medical emergency so that they can then swoop in and save the patient. This last type, which seems likely to be closest to Lucy's motivations, is satisfied by being witnessed trying to save someone they know is already dead or dying.

To them, hero does not always mean a patient that pulls through. With Lucy Latby, it's clear. She intended for her victims to die. The ones who survived are likely just victims, she didn't have a chance to attack another time. It was never about saving them. It was about making it seem as though she tried her hardest and later that she was broken up about the whole situation. There's been just one death on the unit since Lettby's removal in 2016. And due to change is relating to the fallout of the deaths of these babies we've discussed,

the unit can no longer care for babies born more than five weeks premature. That may be a good move, because I don't know what parents of an infant born as early as some of Lettby's victims would have ever felt comfortable with the facility after what happened there. There are now beds next to the incubators, so parents never have to leave their children overnight. That was the time when Lucy Lepe preferred to strike her victims, victims who couldn't defend themselves and whose parents weren't around to defend them. Lettby has forever changed the hospital unit there and will always be. be remembered, not because of the kind and caring support she provided, but instead she'll remain

infamous for the cold and heartless deed she committed against the most vulnerable of victims. So more as we wrap up this episode, no doubt, a very tough one to do. When we're talking about the deaths of a number of very small infants, I think the biggest thing for me is trying to figure out how a person like Lucy Lassie. be not only could do the things that she did, but why, you know, she made the decision to do it. And I don't know that we have all those answers because somehow she still maintains her innocence. So she's not come out and said, okay, I did this because of X. There have been a number of theories put forward, it does seem to me as though in some way this is related to her

causing a situation. And whether that was so that she could get sympathy for, you know, swooping in and trying to save them or it was because she wanted this doctor who she was infatuated with to come in and so that they would, you know, have more chances to be around each other. I mean, it's hard to make sense of any of it, no matter what the reasoning is or what. To me, it's a reminder that just because a case is solved, you know the who, you know, the how, it doesn't always provide answers. Like, we don't know the why. And it's hard to put yourself in somebody's head like hers, like Lucy's, to try and fathom, how are they able to do something like this? You think of doctors and nurses that train extensively for the sole purpose

of helping people and helping them to get better, helping them to survive, to live. And in this case, you have someone like Lucy Lettby who used that position to harm babies of, which is just, you know, a whole other level in my mind, anyway, of evil. I mean, it's bad enough to kill an adult or even an adult victim in a hospital that was harmed intentionally would be bad enough. But babies just seems especially shocking. And it's just very hard to try and fathom how she was able to do this. Yeah, my youngest who just started college is in the school of nursing.

wants to be a nurse, she wants to help people. And I think she wants to ultimately work in the NICU. You think about nurses. My mom was a nurse. I think a lot of nurses go into that profession because they want to help people. And so to me, it is so shocking when a doctor or nurse is found to have intentionally harmed patients, killed patients. And I don't. And I don't, know I've said it before on episodes. You know, these are very scary to me. Because you think about any time you go into the hospital, you are somewhat vulnerable. Now, obviously, these premature infants were as vulnerable as could be.

But even us as adults, when we go into the hospital, we are vulnerable. People are taking care of us. They're injecting us with stuff. They're giving us IVs. It's a scary thought. And we mentioned it a couple times. We don't know how many victims are ultimately out there of Lucy's. Are there other babies that didn't survive?

Or there are other ones that did and now have medical problems? We're going to have to wait to see what happens. Yeah, because, you know, if you think about it, this case is still fairly recent. She was just sentenced in August. So there may be things that are still to come out. but definitely scary, no doubt about that. But that's it for our episode on Lucy Ledby. If you love the show, haven't done so yet, go out, give us a five-star rating,

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but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike and Morph. We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.