Criminology - Mark David Chapman

Episode Date: April 13, 2019

John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, and Ringo Starr of the Beatles took the world by storm. They became one of the most popular and influential bands of all time. Nothing in Mark David Chapman's life seemed to work out as he wanted it to. He listened to the Beatles all the time. But Chapman's life was spiraling out of control in the late 1980s. He was obsessed with John Lennon of the Beatles and felt that killing Lennon would make him famous. Chapman displayed many signs of mental illness in the months leading up to the murder. In this episode of Criminology, we discuss the Beatles, the life of John Lennon, the life of Mark Chapman, and the murder that shocked and saddened the world. You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello everyone and welcome to episode 56 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and normally I would have my co-host Mike Morford with me, but not today. Morph is very under the weather. His voice is so bad that there was just no way that he could record. you know, I talked to him the past couple of days. Every time I talk to him, it sounds like he's eating a bag of rocks. So we made the decision that I was going to do the episode myself. So you're stuck with me. And I've decided to switch it up a bit. We were set to bring you a fascinating case with an interview that Morp was conducting with a family member tied to that case. you know, that family member was going to provide some, you know, very detailed insight into the case. But because his voice has been so bad, really for the past couple of weeks, he has not been able to record the interview. Yeah, I mean, this really has been plaguing him for that long.

So instead, knowing that I was going to do the episode myself, I picked a case that I've been working on for some time. you know, doing three different podcasts, I probably have 10 to 20 different stories in some form or another, basically ready at all times. What we're covering in this episode is the story of Mark David Chapman, the man who murdered John Lennon. And I guess the reason why this case has always fascinated me so much is, you know, there's a lot of nuanced, layers to the case. You know, first off, you have John Lennon, this enigmatic figure who was part of one of the most beloved and successful bands of all time, the Beatles.

And then you have Mark David Chapman, his background, his mental health issues that are so obviously intertwined with his actions. But before we get into all of that, let's give our new Patreon supporter shout out. We had Nolan Henderson, Jessica May, Claire Garde, Stephen, and Mark Belding. So a huge thanks to all of those people that chose to support the show. And a big thanks to all the people that continue to support it month after month. You know, we've said it. This is not some line.

We really couldn't do it without those folks. As the show has grown. It has become more expensive to put out. The more listeners that we have, the more it costs us to put the show out. So it really is a big help. And anyone can become a Patreon supporter and help out the show by going to patreon.com slash criminology. There are different levels of donation.

Certain levels get you cool merch. And we also put out some Patreon only. content, including ad-free episodes. CrimeCon is rolling up very quickly, first part of June. If you're still planning on going and you need to buy a badge at crimecon.com, make sure you use our promo code, Criminology 19 at checkout. You'll get 10% off the price of your standard badge. And I do want to talk about next week's episode. Morph and I are very excited about this. You know, it's hard to believe, but it has been a full year since the arrest of Joseph J. DeAngelo as the suspected East Area rapist slash Golden State Killer.

And I don't have more here to riff with, but I'll just say for me, this past year has flown by. It doesn't seem like that long ago that we were in the middle of putting out the second season. of criminology, which was completely focused around this case. And we knew going in that it was going to be a long season. There was a lot of information to cover. And let me just say, if you have not listened to the second season on the Golden State Killer, you need to do that. It's a very good season, a very good set of episodes.

I know it's now on Stitcher Premium, but they do have a. free one month trial, which should be plenty of time to listen to the Golden State Killer episodes. So we're putting this out. And in the middle of what we thought was going to be a long season, the huge announcement came out about the arrest of Joseph DeAngelo. That turned our whole season upside down, but in a good way. So what we have for you next Saturday night is much of the same gang back that provided so much insight into the case during season two, Paul Holes is back, as are some of the other investigators. We have interviews with some of the sister survivors of this monster.

We're going to talk about what has happened with the case in the last year, but also give you some great conversations with some of these individuals that have been close to this case for a very long time. We also want to give you reactions from those amazing women who suffered at the hands of this man, but now call themselves sister survivors. You won't believe some of the great content that we have in store for what will probably be a pretty long episode, but make sure you check that out next Saturday night. All right, so let's dive into this case. and I want to start it off talking a little bit about the Beatles, although I can't imagine there are too many folks listening that don't know who the Beatles are.

There might be a lot of you that were not alive when the Beatles were together, myself included, but they were a phenomenon. They left girls screaming everywhere they went. So the Beatles were made up of John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, and Ringo Starr. These are four guys that grew up on the streets of Liverpool, England. But at first, it was just John and some other guys in a band that they named the Quarrymen. I think they even had another name before that.

But eventually John met Paul and Paul introduced him to George. And by 1958, they were in the band as well. And the band went through a number of. names. But in 1960, they finally settled on the Beatles. So they're now called the Beatles. People that had been in this original band called Aquarion, they started to fall out. They started to go do other things. The people that remained were John, Paul, and George. And basically, they rotated through drummers for a while. They couldn't decide on a drummer until they finally found Ringo.

in 1962. So now the band has started to come together and they paid their dues playing around Europe for a few years. But in 1963, their first record came out and the single, I Want to hold your hand catapulted to number one. And really, that was all it took. You know, they took Europe by storm. They took the U.S. by storm with the what they called the British invasion. They appeared on the Ed Sullivan show. Beetlemania was everywhere. I mean, before you knew it, their faces were on every product imaginable, lunchboxes, socks.

If there was a product out there to put a face on, they figured out a way to put the Beatles on there. And from there, they went on to be one of the most influential and successful bands in the history of music. Hey, too, a sad song. So when you hear that, you know instantly that's the Beatles, right? They had a lot of great songs. And it doesn't really matter if you're a Beatles fan, you're okay on the Beatles or you don't

like the Beatles. It's hard not to recognize their songs, their sound, and it's hard not to give them their due because of what they accomplished and what they meant to music. But as the old saying goes, right, everything good comes to an end. And towards the later half of the 1960s, crack started to form in the band. John Lennon fell in love with Yoko Ono, started having her at the studio, which the rest of the band hated. John and Paul began to disagree on the future of the band. Ringo even left the band for a short time in the late 60s, only

to come back, but the ship couldn't be righted. And the band officially broke up in late December 1970. And this was huge. I mean, if you think about it, they really weren't around that long as compared to bands like the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith. I mean, you can go down the line. This was really six, seven years of just flat out. being on top of the world and then you say, that's it, we're done. People around the world were heartbroken. They loved the Beatles. They couldn't believe that they would break up. All right, that is my Beatles talk. But this story is about John Lennon and Mark David Chapman, but it's impossible to talk about Lennon without talking about the Beatles. John Winston Lennon

was born in Liverpool on October 9th, 1940 to Alfred and Julia Lennon. Alfred worked on ships. He was out at sea for long periods of time. So really, he was never hardly home to see his family. John and his mother lived most of the time with her father. And I think the fact that Alfred was always away at sea, it was a huge issue for Julia. she became pregnant with the baby of a soldier that she met, later gave that baby up for adoption, but then later on, while she was waitressing, she met and fell in love with another man named Bobby. So that's why I say. I think Alfred being out at sea for long periods of time didn't set well with Julia.

She needed someone in her life. And it's from this point that the story of little John Lennon gets a little hazy. Most historians have written that his mother, Julia, didn't want anything to do with him after she met this guy named Bobby. So she gave him to her sister Mimi to raise. And then his mom went on to live with this new man in her life. And she went on to raise a family with him. But John's half-sister, Julia, tells a different story. She has said over the years that Mimi essentially took John away from Julia because in Mimi's

eyes, her sister was living a very sinful life. So I'm not sure what is the absolute truth. And really, no matter how it happened, John grew up with Mimi. And he started his first band while in school, met Paul. Matt George and then the Beatles story goes on from there. Now, one thing that John said was that even as a youngster, he knew he would be famous. He just wasn't sure how it was going to happen. But interwoven into this story of the Beatles are the two marriages and the children in

John's life. John met his first wife, Cynthia Powell, in 1957, when they attended. ended in art college together. She was around for the early days of the quarrymen group and was said to have attended their gigs around Europe, often traveling with Paul McCartney's girlfriend at the time, whoever that happened to be. But their early relationship was not always smooth sailing. Both Cynthia and John admitted over the years that John Lennon had a terrible temper.

and he struck Cynthia more than once when he was angry. John said that he just didn't know any other way to work out his feelings at the time other than to become physical, to hit people. And, you know, as he put it, it didn't matter. Man or woman, when he was in a situation that frustrated him, he became what he called a hitter. And that's not really what you think about when you think of John Lennon. And we'll talk about why that is later on. But despite all of that, John and Cynthia got married in August of 1962.

And this was just about the time that the Beatles were starting to get noticed throughout Europe. And so John and Cynthia were asked to keep the marriage a secret because the band's manager felt that it would hurt the band. for all of those girls out there to know that one of the Beatles was married. So it was an image thing. And on top of that, I'm not really sure that this was a marriage of absolute love. It came after the pair found out that Cynthia was pregnant with the couple's child that they later named Julian. You know, the marriage was rocky.

It went downhill and then finally crashed in early 1968. this was when John confessed to having a number of affairs over the years. Cynthia also later blamed it in interviews on John's drug use. She said he was using LSD at the time. So their divorce was finalized in late 1968. With Cynthia getting custody of Julian, she received a lump sum payment and a yearly payment. But the money was so small compared to the money that John made during his career, Cynthia really got very little.

And then you have to talk about Yoko Ono, a name that is many times followed up by people saying the woman that broke up the Beatles. Now, there are varying accounts of how the two met, but they definitely met while John was still married to Cynthia. in fact, after John confessed to Cynthia about his infidelities, Cynthia took off on a vacation, right? Obviously, that's bad news. That's hard to take.

She had to get away. When she returned to the house, she found John and Yoko inside the house in bathrobes. They had been intimate. But John would later write in a letter to Cynthia that, quote, our marriage was over long before LSD and Yoko Ono. And that's a reality. So Yoko Ono was an activist.

She was an avant-garde artist. In March of 1969, John and Yoko were married. And Yoko Ono really did change John Lennon. I don't think there's much doubt about that. They used their honeymoon to protest the Vietnam War. And I talked about John. being violent with his first wife, Cynthia, he wasn't like that with Yoko. And he credits her with making him a more peaceful person.

John and Yoko went on to make albums together. He was so in love with her that he legally changed his middle name to Ono. So that brings us up to the early 1970s. The Beatles have broken up. John is married to Yoko. In 1971, John and Yoko moved to New York City, leaving England behind. And John, like the other members of the band, enjoyed a pretty successful solo career after the breakup. By far, his most famous solo song is Imagine.

And that's a song again. When you hear it, you instantly know what that is. But John got increasingly more into the social, and political activism alongside Yoko. And that song Imagine is kind of a ballad for world peace, world harmony, everybody getting along. But this activism got linen in some hot water in the 1970s to put him on the radar of the FBI.

The FBI started compiling a very detailed file on him. And President Richard Nixon, wanted him deported. Nixon felt that Lenin's opposition to the war in Vietnam would carry a lot of weight with voters and would hurt his chance for re-election. I'm not sure any of that is untrue. So the INS actually started the process of deporting John Lennon. And he spent a number of years, you know, three or four years, defending this deportation.

and he finally won in 1975. But by that time Watergate had happened, Nixon was out of office, and no one in power really cared by that point about deporting John Lyndon anyway. Also in that year, 1975, John and Yoko had a son that they named Sean. And after Sean was born, John took a break from music, really from 70 to 75. He, you know, he did quite a bit of stuff on his own solo stuff. He did some stuff with Yoko. But after 75, he dabbled in some art and a couple of other things, but essentially

he devoted all of his time to his family. He would wake up with Sean in the morning, prepare his meals. I think John Linden really loved his family life and didn't miss the fame of the Beatles at I just don't think he was that guy. Although obviously he was still very famous. And he would be out of music for, you know, around five years. It wouldn't be until 1980 that he returned, releasing a single in October of that year. And then a full album with Yoko in November.

The album was called Double Fantasy. And it was panned by critics. People hated it. But what no one knew. besides Mark David Chapman was that within a month of releasing that album, double fantasy, John Lennon would be dead. Mark David Chapman was born May 10th, 195 in Fort Worth, Texas to David and Diane Chapman.

You know, at that time, David was in the Air Force and Diane was a nurse. When Mark was very young, the family moved to Jacksonville, Florida. which is where Mark lived until he was seven. And then at that point, the family moved to Decatur, Georgia. Mark had a younger sister named Susan. It was in Georgia that Mark's dad worked in the financial industry. And his mother, Diane, she stayed at home to take care of the kids. But there were reports that, you know, this was not maybe the happiest home.

The parents fought a lot. The family life was a little bit. chaotic. Mark has said over the years that he was very afraid of his father. His father had a bad temper and could become physically violent very quickly. This is according to Mark. Now, there were also reports that Mark got into drugs at a pretty early age. And of course, he got into the Beatles. We know that. But it was the drug that really caused a lot of friction between Mark and his mother. And I'm not sure in what household there wouldn't be some friction between a mom or a dad that

finds out that their kids are doing drugs. Most people are not going to say, oh, okay. I mean, there's going to be some friction. You're going to, there's going to be a battle. And that's exactly what happened with Mark and his mother. You know, she attempted to confront his drug use head on. She berated him. She was constantly searching his room.

for drugs, all of this added up to them basically fighting constantly. Mark and his mother, Mark confided in his friends that he hated his mother. He had thoughts of burning down the family home. Now, he did say he would do it when no one was there, but still, he's having some pretty dark thoughts early on in life. But in Mark's junior year of high school, at the age of 16, things drastically changed for him. A traveling evangelist came to a pep rally at Mark's school. The evangelist offered to save everyone there in attendance at the pep rally. And there were many students that decided to go for it.

One of those was Mark Chapman. And it was like a light switch being flipped. There were reports from classmates saying he began showing up at school, carrying his Bible. wearing a large cross around his neck and quoting scriptures to fellow classmates. Mark also turned against the Beatles, and especially John Lennon, during this period of his life, like many people in the South, Mark was upset with John over some comments he had made, especially one about the Beatles being bigger than Jesus. people in the South didn't take that very well.

And after that comment, the Beatles' ability to tour in the South kind of ground to a halt. There's many things that you don't say in the South, but one of them especially is that you're bigger than Jesus. You just don't say that in the South. But this stance, this new, Mark's new stance on the Beatles, it's not going to last all that long. He also became a YMCA counselor around this time.

It's interesting to read comments from, you know, 30, 40 years ago from people that knew Mark at these periods in his life, you know, people that knew him while he was a counselor at the YMCA said that he was extremely good with the kids. He was very effective at warning them about the dangers of drugs. I mean, really, because it was something. that he had firsthand experience with. But this is something that we'll hear a lot. You know, people that worked with Mark, knew him in different capacities.

Most of people really liked him. Now, the other thing that Mark did in high school, probably like a lot of us did, was that he read J.D. Salinger's book, Catcher in the Rye. I know that was a requirement when I was in high school. It may still be. I can't remember if my daughter was required. to read that or not, but Mark David Chapman really identified with the Holden-Callfill character

in that book. And all of it, the book, the character, it would be extremely influential on Chapman throughout his life. And this book, Catcher in the Rye, you know, I've done a lot of research on a lot of different cases, especially serial killers. This book comes up quite a bit in the backgrounds of different serial killers as being an influence. I'm not sure why. I mean, I've read the book multiple times. I like the book. But it's something about the Holden call-fill character, the stance that he has the view that he has on life. I just think it's strange, that it's one of the books that is either found with a lot of killers or is mentioned by a lot of killers. But no doubt, it was very big in Mark's life when he was in high school. It will be big in

his life as an adult as well. Chapman graduated from high school in 1973. And his high school yearbook photo shows him looking somewhat like a beetle. I don't mean the bug. I mean the band. He had his dark hair combed over his forehead. Now, to be honest, I think this was a look. shared by many boys at the time. But it to me adds to the story and to how much Chapman adored the Beatles. Because like I said, that phase of him being anti-Beal, it lasted for a little bit. But now he's back on the bandwagon. He drifted somewhat after high school.

He enrolled at a local junior college, but he dropped out after his first semester. He just couldn't hack it. college. It just wasn't for him. So he decided to go back to the YMCA and he even went overseas, went to Beirut, Lebanon to work with the YMCA and some of their programs over there. But it didn't work out. And Mark returned to the U.S. And when he did, he was severely depressed. Nothing that he tried seemed to work out. He turned to the YMCA again. And they set him up, working in Arkansas in a resettlement program for Vietnamese refugees. So there was a individual that roomed with Mark in Arkansas for five months.

And he was quoted in a paper as saying he was one of the most compassionate staff members we ever had. But while Mark was very capable, he always dwelled on his failings, not his successes. he was extremely empathetic, but he just couldn't get it together. The roommate also said that Mark listened to Beatles records nonstop in his free time. I think he listened to some other bands, but the Beatles were it for him. So if you think about what this roommate is saying about Mark Chapman, you know, for me, I'm picturing this Eeyore sort of character, always depressed, woe, is me type who finds escape in listening to the music of his favorite band, you know, echoing on

what the roommate said, it does seem like Mark Chapman did some good things in his life. He helped out some people, but he was the type of person that couldn't say to himself, oh, wow, I did a good thing there. All he could do was see the things that he tried to do that didn't work. And he dwelt on those, he fixated on those, and it hampered his growth for sure. It was in Arkansas in 1975 that Mark met and fell in love with a woman named Jessica. She persuaded him to enroll at a Bible college in Tennessee with her, but again, Mark couldn't cut it in college. He flunked out. I think he also slept around on this very, very religious girl. And she ended the relationship.

And he was crushed. He really loved this girl, Jessica. The next year, Chapman was back in Georgia, working as a security guard. And records show that he obtained a gun permit for the job. He also tried junior college again. But again, he couldn't cut it. He flunked out. And then kind of out of nowhere, Chapman moved to Hawaii

in 1977. You know, maybe he wanted a fresh start. Maybe it was because nothing had worked out quite right, any other place he'd been. If Hawaii was the paradise that he needed to make things work, it didn't start out that way at all. It really was more as if Chapman flew to Hawaii to end his life. Because not that long after arriving, Mark wrote postcards to the, people that were probably the closest in his life. Then he drove out to this beautiful remote spot.

He connected a hose from his car's tailpipe to the window and he sealed it up. It just so happened that a good Samaritan was passing by, saw what was going on and saved Mark's life. Got him out of the car, took him to nearby Castle Memorial Hospital and Mark survived. But Mark would try to take his own life again, another time, only to be rushed by someone else to the same hospital and survive. But this time after getting out of Castle Memorial, he took a job there in the housekeeping department. And once again, his co-workers there at Castle Memorial Hospital, they liked him.

They said he was good at his job. He even started dating a nurse at the hospital. And this woman had nothing but good things to say about Mark. Now, she did say that one day out of the blue, he sold all of his stereo equipment and his Beatle albums. And he didn't give her any reason for it. That is strange for a man that loves the Beatles and loves music in general. And to me, it's just another.

example of the obsession, this very strange kind of love, hate relationship that Mark Chapman had with the Beatles and with John Lennon. And he wouldn't listen to anything else but the Beatles. Then something would change in his life. And he wouldn't listen to them at all for some period of time. But he would always come back. So he's got this job. He has a girlfriend. Things are kind of looking up for Mark Chapman in Hawaii. And then he found out that his parents were divorcing. His mother flew out to Hawaii to be with him. But even though Mark's life seemed to be going well for him, right?

This job he liked, the girlfriend, the one negative he had was that he found out his parents were divorcing. He decided he needed to escape. And he went to a travel agent and booked a trip around the world and had to borrow money to do that. I mean, this wasn't a guy. that was flush with money. But basically on this trip, he visited a lot of countries, especially a lot of the YMCA's in

different countries. He knew a lot of these people from his time, you know, with the YMCA. But all he seemed to talk about on this trip was the travel agent that had booked his trip for him. He was smitten with this woman. Her name was Gloria Abe. He couldn't stop talking about it. about her. So Chapman gets home from this trip and things seemed a little more upbeat for Mark.

He actually asked Gloria out to travel agent. They began dating and he finally took a promotion at the hospital, something that they had offered him a number of times before, but he had turned out. According to the hospital administrator, the previous times when they had talked to Mark about, you know, taking a bigger role, a bigger position. He turned it down because he said he couldn't hack it. He couldn't handle it. And he liked the level of responsibility he had. He didn't want a higher level. But now he had one. He and Gloria married in June of 1979. But Mark was not a good husband. He was described as an emotional bully. He was very controlling. of Gloria, which ultimately led to her withdrawing from her friends.

You know, basically it marks insistence. He didn't want her to be around anyone but him. There were reports that he wouldn't even let her watch television, listen to the radio, or read the newspaper. That's pretty controlling. The only place you could go for privacy was in the bathroom. I'd just go in there, lock the door, and just cry, you know, and just say, I can't take this.

How long are you going to be like this? You know, this is so miserable. So that's a short clip of Gloria talking, you know, sometime later. But it's sad. You get a sense of what things were like for her. Now, after the marriage and over the last half of 1979, Mark became increasingly unstable. He was back to reading Catcher in the Rye on a routine basis.

he was really fixating on Holden Caulfield. And as the end of 1979 approached, Chapman became more and more obsessed with John Lennon. Mark quit his job at the hospital. And he started working as a security guard in Honolulu. And apparently he used the name John Lennon on the identification card that he carried around for his job. He started wearing the same type of glasses as, John did, and neighbors constantly complain that he played the Beatles nonstop at very, very loud volumes.

In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door, and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. new series from ABC audio in 2020. Blood and water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. So up to this point, when I've talked about Mark Chapman and the people that he's worked with, the people that he's interacted with, for the most part, it's been pretty positive.

But things are changing in Mark's life. And I think that's evident from what his co-workers at the security guard firm said about him. They described him as a very nervous person. They thought he was strange. He was odd. One guard related that, you know, they were on this job at a condo complex, which just happened to be across the street from a church of Scientology building. Apparently, Chapman would shout hateful, abusive things at the members as they walked out. He also made some menacing phone calls to the church, to the building saying, bang, bang, you're dead. And then he would hang up. Now, I don't know how powerful the church of Scientology was in 1979. But to me, that's an organization that I don't think I would go out of my way to rile up.

I don't see the good in that. I only see the possible downside. But this spiral, of marks. It stretched into 1980. Gloria was offered a promotion at work. Chapman made her quit. He didn't want her to take this promotion. He even sold their car and spent the money on artwork. He started getting into, you know, what was fairly expensive, well-known artwork, even though they didn't have a ton of money. In the summer of 1980, there was a series of break-ins at the condo complex where Mark was working as a guard. In his mind, he was convinced that his coworkers all thought he was a failure. He was not good enough to stop the break-ins.

So he made the decision that he was going to quit. And then on October 20th, 1980, the news broke that John and Yoko were releasing their long-awaited album double fantasy. And it was just three days later. Chapman quit his job, signed out on the logbook using the name John Lennon. Then he crossed it out. And it was just a few days after that, you know, despite his documented mental instability, he was able to get the Honolulu authorities to approve his gun permit.

So using that, he bought a. little snub-nosed 38 caliber revolver. He paid $169 for it at a gun store. And this gun store was located just a block away from the Honolulu police station. And this little snub-nosed revolver was easily concealable. I mean, that was kind of the, I mean, really back then, that was the gun you bought if you wanted a gun that you could easily conceal. But there's no doubt. Mark David Chapman had made the decision that he was going to kill John Lennon. Mark's wife, Gloria, later said that he became very upset with Lennon because he thought he was a phony. You know, John's saying about having no possessions, peace, love, harmony, everybody is won,

yet he had millions of dollars. he had all of the toys and the things that rich people had, that started to bug. I don't think bugs the right word, started to piss mark off. He also became increasingly angry over those anti-religious lyrics of older Beatles songs. And again, he's living in this Holden Caulfield mindset, which is fueling a lot of this, especially the part about John Lennon being phony. But apparently he had other targets as well. There were names such as Johnny Carson, Elizabeth Taylor, Marlon Brando, Jackie Onassis, Todd Runran, another rocker, David Bowie. There was a whole bunch of other people that Chapman

had on his list of possible targets. I just think John Lennon was always at the top. But if he couldn't get to Lyndon, then I think his plan was to go after one of these other names. I mean, there's really no doubt that Mark Chapman's mental health at this point in his life, it's not good at all. He has some mental health problems that he's not being treated for. So Chapman flew to the Atlanta area in November. Remember, he had lived around the Decatur, Georgia, area. He wanted to see some old friends. And he wanted to see Jessica, tried to see Jessica, his old girlfriend, but was snubbed by her parents. I'm not sure why he wanted to see Jessica when he was now married, but that's a whole other discussion. What it did to Mark was make him

extremely depressed, this fact that he wanted to see Jessica. Her parents wouldn't allow it. But eventually he did make his way to New York. That was his old. ultimate destination, but nothing happened. During this trip to New York, he decided not to carry out any of the plans that were running through his head. Instead, he called his wife Gloria and told her that he was coming home. And when he got home, he told Gloria about what he had been thinking about, what he had been fantasizing about, the homicidal thoughts that, you know, were running through his mind, he even showed her the gun that he had bought. He showed her the bullets that he intended to use with it. But Gloria never contacted anyone about the things that Mark said to her. I think in later interviews,

Gloria would say that, you know, she didn't really believe that he would ever go through with it, you know, things like that. But Mark did make an appointment with a psychiatrist, although he never kept it, he never actually saw the psychiatrist. Instead, he made plans to return to New York. And he did on December 6th. In the bag that he brought with him was the 38 revolver and 14 hours worth of taped Beatles music. That's what he brought. You're not planning on staying very long in New York with a 38 revolver and 14.

hours worth of Beatles music. And he had a very strange encounter with the cab driver that picked him up at the airport. This cabby later said that Chapman offered him cocaine. He was ranting and raving in the backseat about how successful people like rock stars needed to be brought down. He was almost maniacal during this cab ride and the things he was saying, the way that he was acting. And then the cabby said that as Mark exited the vehicle, he said to the cabby, remember my name if you hear it again. So a little foreshadowing there, but I think it speaks to the fact that he set to carry out his plan.

And that's what he did. He set out on his plan to stalk and kill John Lennon. He also apparently accosted James Taylor in New York. I mean, most of us could walk around New York. never see a celebrity. This guy runs into James Taylor. He's going to find John Lennon. But Taylor said, quote, the guy had sort of pinned me to the wall and was glistening with sweat. And he was talking about what he was going to do. He was going to get in touch with John Lennon. Imagine that. Imagine the thoughts that ran through James Taylor's mind after he found out

what's ultimately going to happen, he had to have known. There's no way that he would have forgotten Chapman's face. That's the one thing to me about Mark David Chapman. He's very recognizable. And I don't know if that's just because I've seen his picture so many times, but even if it's just flashing through real quick, if you see it, it's like, bam, you know that's Mark David Chapman. On the morning of the murder, December 8th, Chapman left his hotel.

room, he didn't even bother to take everything with him. I think at this point, he knew he was not coming back. He wasn't going to need any of the things that he left in that hotel room. He bought a copy of The Catcher in the Rye. And it's one thing I've always wondered over the years, because he'd read the book so many times, I wonder how many copies he actually purchased. But inside this copy of the Catcher in the Rye, he wrote, this is my statement, and he signed it Holden Caulfield. I think he actually even addressed it to Holden Caulfield. Very strange. But he spent the day out in front of John Lennon's apartment building, the Dakota, just

waiting for a glimpse of him. You know, I think he'd been stalking around the Dakota a little bit since he arrived in New York. He had yet to even see John Lennon, but he got exactly what he was. was looking for around 5 p.m. that day, John and Yoko exited the building and they were walking towards a car that was waiting to take them to a recording session. Chapman was carrying the album Double Fantasy that had just come out the month before and he walked up to John and he asked him if he would sign it. And John said yes. And he signed the album. And there just happened to be a

photographer there that snapped a picture. And this is a very famous photograph. It shows John Lennon looking down as he signs the album with Mark Chapman on his left side watching on. It's an iconic photograph. But Chapman didn't do anything to John Lennon at this point. He got his signed album. John got in the car. And he and he and Yoko went to record. But I want to play this clip of Bill Curtis. First of all, I never pass up a chance to listen to Bill Curtis, but here he is talking about this famous photograph.

The front page of tonight's New York Daily News captures an instant a moment in time that will live on for the countless fans of rock star John Lennon. The photograph depicts Lennon, autographing an album for his accused killer, just hours before the murder. So it was about 1045 p.m. when John and Yoko returned to the Dakota, Chapman's still there. He's standing just outside the entrance. And as the couple passed him into the building, Chapman pulled out his 38 revolver and he kind of bent down. He crouched down into a combat stance and he fired five shots, four of which hit John in the back and shoulder. And then very calmly, Chapman pulled out his copy of The Catcher in the Rye, and he just sat down and started reading it. He had accomplished what he had set out to do, and now he was going to read his book. Police and rescue personnel, they arrived on scene pretty quickly.

The police found Chapman standing in the archway. He had his hands over his head pretty easily. They handcuffed him. they put him in a police car. And Chapman told the officers who arrested him, quote, don't let anyone hurt me, stay with me.

And I didn't have anything against him. I don't know why I did it. I've always had a lot of respect for the police. Very strange things, I think, being said by Mark Chapman. Does that speak to his mental state at the time? I think part of it does. especially the part in the middle. I didn't have anything against him. I don't know why I did it.

Now, Mark's going to say a lot of things over the years about, you know, why he killed John Lennon, some of the things we've already talked about. And then much later on, he's going to come out and definitively say why he killed John. And we'll talk about that a little later. So John Lennon is rushed to the hospital. But his wounds are very severe. And, he dies. He's pronounced dead at 11.07 p.m. And anyone watching Monday night football that night found out the news about John Lennon's death from the famous sportscaster Howard Kosell. And I don't care what's on the line, Howard, you have got to say, but we know in the boot. Yes, we have to say it. Remember, this is just a football game. No matter who wins or loses.

An unspeakable tragedy confirmed to us by ABC News in New York City. John Lennon, outside of his apartment building on the west side of New York City, the most famous, perhaps, of all of the Beatles. Shot twice in the back, rushed to Roosevelt Hospital, dead on arrival. Hard to go back to the game after that news flash, which in duty found we had to tell. Indeed it is. So it's Howard Cosell. I mean, the guy just had such an iconic voice.

And the thing about Howard was, yeah, he was a sportscaster, but I think he knew a lot of celebrities in other realms as well. You can really hear it in his voice, the gravity of the news that he has to deliver to the nation. So they take Mark to the police station. They get there around 11.05. That's before John was even officially pronounced dead. They search him. They found his Hawaii gun permit. They found over $2,000 in cash on him as well. But the detectives that interacted with Mark that night, they said that he rambled on about his life,

his history of mental illness, the different times that he tried to harm himself. They said he got into some very strange things, talking about good spirits versus evil spirits. It really prompted the detectives to think that, you know what? We're dealing with somebody here with that is mentally ill. They used some derogatory terms back at that point in time. And I want to play a clip of how. How many people found out the next morning that John Lennon had died? Because you have to remember, this happened pretty late at night.

A lot of people were probably already in bed. If they didn't watch the late news, they wouldn't have known anything about it. This evening, John Lennon arrived at the emergency room at the Roosevelt Hospital. He was dead on at the time of his arrival. Numerous resuscitative efforts were made after his arrival. in the hospital including transfusions, surgical procedures, other procedures. But in spite of the effort of many physicians and after many procedures, we were unable to restore the life of Mr. Lennon.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Tom Brokaw. This is today, December 9th. I'm here with Jane Pauley, and this entire half hour will be devoted to the murder of John Lennon, ex-Beedle, one of the best-known musicians and most influential people of his time. As you heard Dr. Stephen Lynn at Roosevelt Hospital in New York City say, Lenin was shot and killed at about 11 o'clock last night outside his apartment building. News of the London shooting, of course, spread quickly around the world. NBC news correspondent Stephen Fraser tells what happened last night on Manhattan's west side. Witnesses told police Lenin was shot near the door to his apartment building as he and Yoko Ono returned from a recording studio. I saw John O'Neok, get out of the living.

They walked into the gate and then I heard four or five shots. They were air shattering. They were air shattering. They heard a woman screaming. It was Yoko. She was screaming. She was screaming. Lennon's building is home for many celebrities.

Strangers waiting for a glimpse of some resident are not uncommon. The man accused of shooting Lennon dropped his gun afterward and waited for police. and waited for police to arrive. A detective who questioned him in a nearby police station said he is Mark Chapman, a 25-year-old Hawaiian, who has been in New York one week. He, Mr. Chapman, has been about the Dakota for the last several days. He was there on Saturday asking about Mr. Lennon.

He was there on Sunday asking about Mr. Lennon. And he was there again this afternoon when Mr. Lennon and his wife left for a recording session. He was able to obtain an autograph on an album from Mr. Lennon as he left for the recording studio where he was going. He remained at that location all evening, waiting for Mr. Lennon to come back. Sometime shortly before 11 o'clock, John Lennon and his wife arrived back at the Dakota in a limousine. They parked the limousine on the curb right outside the Dakota. There is a driveway into which they might have gone.

but on this occasion did not. They got out of the car, out of the limousine, and walked into the archway area of the Dakota. To the right as you walk in the archway area is kind of a vestibule, which has a doorway, a glass doorway. This individual, Mr. Chapman, came up behind him and called to him Mr. Lennon

as he arrived at that doorway, and then in a combat stance, he fired, he emptied the charter arms 38 caliber gun that he had with him and shot John Lennon. At the hospital where Lennon was taken, young people prayed. If he's not dead, John Lennon can't be dead. Mark Chapman, charged with the murder of John Lennon, will be arraigned later this morning. And you can tell from that clip, you know, the... the people that they interviewed, they were heartbroken, they were infuriated. Chapman was charged with second degree murder and sent to a mental health facility.

This was so that he could be evaluated and he was evaluated by a large number of doctors. And many of the doctors diagnosed him with some form of mental illness, but they couldn't all agree on exactly what he had. part of this was because some of the doctors were on the side of the prosecution. Some of the doctors were on the side of the of the defense. Some said that he was a manic depressive. Some of the doctors said he was a paranoid schizophrenic. Some just said he was psychotic.

But there were a couple of examiners, doctors that were actually appointed by the court. These are the ones that are going to make the final decision. and they concluded that Mark David Chapman was delusional, but competent to stand trial. And then at some point, they had to move Chapman to Rikers Island for his own safety because authorities were really worried that upset fans of the Beatles were going to storm the mental health facility, pull Chapman out, and carry out their own brand of justice. Chapman's lawyer wanted him to plead not guilty by reason of insanity at his trial. And he actually went through a couple of different attorneys.

But Chapman wouldn't have it. And he fought with his attorneys over this. He did not want to use the insanity defense. And the judge finally had to step in and ruled that Chapman would be allowed to plead guilty. And he was doing it of his own free will. But this was a real battle. I mean, his attorneys battled him over this to the point that, you know, they filed motions to take away his right to plead guilty because they didn't think that he was competent to do so.

But they lost. They lost that battle. So there wasn't going to be some big, long, drawn out trial. But at his sentencing, a number of mental health experts testified about his mental status, The judge ultimately sentenced Mark Chapman to 20 years to life, but did order that he be given mental health care while incarcerated. So I mentioned that Chapman had a list of potential targets. One of the names on that list was David Bowie. And at the time that Chapman murdered John Lennon, he was very close to murdering David Bowie. You know,

Bowie was in New York as well. He was performing in the play, The Elephant Man at the Booth Theater. Chapman went as far as to buy front row tickets to the show for the night of the ninth. And police would later find a handbill for the Elephant Man in Chapman's hotel room. And it had David Bowie's name circle. Coincidentally, John and Yoko were also planning to attend the Elephant Man on the ninth. They had front row tickets as well. So this is very strange. The murder happened the night of the eighth. David Bowie took the stage on the ninth after Chapman murdered Lennon and three of the

empty seats in the theater in the front row that night belonged to John and Yoko and Mark Chapman. I mean, you find out things like that. Some people call that a coincidence. Some call it fate. But those are the types of things that, you know, sometimes they give you the chills for a number of different reasons. I think about what if Chapman is unsuccessful in shooting John Lennon that night, are all three of those people in the front row of the elephant man the very next night? And if they are, does Chapman somehow kill David Bowie? Or does Chapman realize that, hey, John Lennon, is at the same show I'm at, he's in the front row with me, and does he find a way to murder him there? I mean, you can get into some real butterfly effect type talk around things like that.

For Chapman, he became instantly famous or more accurately infamous, but we're going to find out. That's really what he wanted. One detective was quoted in the paper saying, you know, that's the old rule. you become as famous as the guy you kill. Every December 8th, groups gather in a section of Central Park near the Dakota that has been named Strawberry Fields. They honor John Lennon's memory and they listen to his music. And I talked about, you know, how big the Beatles were. They broke up fairly early. But in the year 2000, that's 20 years after John Lennon was killed.

30 years after the group broke up, the Beatles sold more records than any other single act, any other group, anyone. So when you think about it in those terms, that's unbelievable. Mark David Chapman was originally sent to Attica and segregated for his own safety. Obviously, there's a lot of people that were in that prison that if given the chance, would have killed Chapman in a heartbeat. And not even because they like the Beatles or like John Lennon, but again, how famous do you become in prison if you kill Mark Chapman? So they had to segregate him.

But it was reported that he was a model prisoner and really has been. Ever since he's been incarcerated, the thing about Chapman, though, he didn't really do any interviews for a number of years, six, seven years. six, seven years after he went to prison, but at some point he changed his mind. And he talked to Larry King, he talked to Barbara Walters, among others. I want to play a clip of Mark talking with Larry King. And this is him talking about the events leading up to the murder. I was standing there with a gun in my pocket.

Knew you were going to shoot him. Sorry? Knew you were going to shoot him? Absolutely. Okay. tried not to, praying not to, but knowing down deep it was probably going to come to that. Did you know it would be that night? Did you know you would see him again? Yes, I knew that morning, oddly, when I left the hotel, some type of premonition,

that this was the last time I was going to leave my hotel room. I hadn't seen him up to that point. That's what makes it interesting. I wasn't even sure he was in the building. And then I left the hotel room, bought a copy of the Catcher in the Rye, signed it, to Holden Caulfield from Holden Caulfield and wrote underneath that this is my statement underlining the word this the emphasis on the word this I had planned not to say anything after the shooting I was right in front of John London there instantly and I had a black Bick pen and I said John would you sign my album and he said sure yoko went and got into the car and he pushed the button on the in and started to get it to write. It was a little hard to get to write at first. Then he wrote his

name, John Lennon, and then underneath that, 1980. And he looked at me, as I mentioned earlier, he said, is that all? Do you want anything else? And I felt then and now that he knew something subconsciously that he was looking into the eyes of the person that was going to kill him. Now, I want to play this clip of Mark talking with Barbara Walters in what is really an eerie conversation, right? I think both of them are, the one with Larry King and this one with Barbara Walters as well. This one is more about the murder itself. Bring me back to December 8th, 1980s. A long day.

So I'm sitting there. It's dark. And this limo pulls up. And John got out. I heard this voice. No, I'm an audible voice, but an audible voice saying over and over, do it, do it, do it, do it. I guess that was me inside. And I pulled the 38 revolver out of my pocket.

I went into what's called a combat stance, fired at his back, five steady. Why did you kill John Lemon? I thought by killing him, I would acquire his fame. So what's interesting about this conversation to me is when he says he thought by killing John Lennon, he would acquire his fame. And like I've talked about, Chapman has been all over the map about his reasons for killing Lennon. You know, early on, he said he didn't kill him for the fame. There was the talk that he was upset about the anti-religious aspects, the lyrics was holding John Lennon accountable. But at a parole hearing in 2012, he came out and told the parole board that he did

it to become famous. When asked what he got out of it, Chapman said attention. Bottom line, he went on to say about the murder, there was an inner struggle for a while there. You know, what am I doing here? Leave now. It wasn't all totally cold-blooded, but most of it was. I did try to tell myself to leave. I've got the album, take it home, show my wife. Everything will be fine. But I was so compelled to commit that murder that nothing would have dragged me away from that building. Chapman was transferred to the windy correctional facility in 2012. And he's come up for parole like 10 times. You know, the first one was in, I think, 2000. And the last one was just last year in 2018, he's been denied every single time. And every time he has a parole hearing,

there are throngs of people that show up to demonstrate, to show their support of the fact that he should never get out. I mean, many of these people are huge Beatles fans. They're still mad at him for, you know, snuffing out the life of a person like John Lennon. His next parole hearing is scheduled for 2020. New York law mandates that he goes before the parole board every two years. So when you think about it, in the grand scheme of things, we've done a lot of cases. That's very quick. That's a very quick turnaround to come up before the parole board. He has shown remorse. There's no doubt about that. It's said that he's been a model inmate. And I believe that the fact that he is coming up so often so quickly before the parole board, I think he's going to get out.

I mean, you know, the real question for me is, has he received the mental health treatment that he so obviously needed while he has been incarcerated? That's question number one. And then I think the second question that, you know, I would ask or probably anyone would ask is, has he paid his debt to society? You know, let's say next year is 2020. He goes up before the parole board and they let him out. That's essentially 40 years.

Is that enough time for the crime that he committed? But then again, I think the other factor is mentally, you know, mental health-wise, is he in a good place? Because he so obviously was not when he committed the murder. and really in the period of time leading up to the murder. But that's it. That is the case of Mark David Chapman. It's a case I've always been interested in.

I find the crimes themselves fascinating, how they happen. But for me, the biggest fascination, I think this holds true for a lot of people as well, is the why, the behind the crime. You know, what led up to it? caused a person to think that this was the right thing to do, to take someone's life. If you love the show and you haven't done so yet, please go out, give us a five star rating. That helps a lot.

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I mean, it just ensures that you don't miss an episode coming up on your phone or however you listen. You don't want to miss next week's. It's going to be a great episode. So for Morf, this is Mike Ferguson, and we'll talk. to you next Saturday night. Take care, everyone.