Criminology - Mary Kay Letourneau

Episode Date: December 17, 2023

In 1996, Mary Kay Letourneau, a 34-year-old teacher and married mother, began an illicit and illegal relationship with her 12-year-old student, Villi Fualaau. It became one of the most high-profile, most covered, and most talked about cases of the time. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the infamous case of Mary Kay Letourneau. When she was arrested and the relationship came to light, the tabloids couldn't get enough of the story. What followed were a bunch of twists, and if you are unfamiliar with this case, you may be very surprised at the final outcome. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello everyone and welcome to episode 287 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Morph. How you doing, buddy? Doing good. Getting a little bit of final Christmas shopping done and just trying to get everything out of the way.

How about you? Yeah, yeah. Same here. We're going on a trip the week right before Christmas. That's kind of like the one week. year where everyone in my family is off. So we're going on a cruise and we're really looking forward to it. Well, it sounds like it'll be a lot of fun, but that's a good time a year to get together with the family and spend some time together. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It makes Christmas a little tough just because you got to

get everything done even earlier in advance to take off and go somewhere. But yeah, we're all excited. let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts we only had one but it was Shannon Armstrong and we really appreciate that support yeah thank you so much Shannon and thank you to everyone else that supports the show and for anyone that's thinking about doing it head over to patreon.com slash criminology and we can't thank you enough so more if we talked about the holidays and you know it is kind of hard to believe that they're coming up as quick as they are this year seems to have flown by at least for me. There may be some out there listening who want to pick up a great last-minute holiday gift,

maybe for a true-crime friend, or maybe they just want to treat themselves to something cool. Well, we have an idea. How about a trip to the annual True Crime Convention, CrimeCon? Yeah, CrimeCon is happening May 31st to June 2nd at the Gaylord, Opry Land in Nashville, Tennessee. It's your chance to come out and rub elbows with all of your favorite true crime celebs and catch up with all your favorite podcasters. And if you're going to go, why not save a bit of money in the process?

If you go to crimecon.com and register for CrimeCon Nashville, use our promo code criminology at checkout. And that's going to save you 10% on your standard bench. It should be a lot of fun. And Morph and I hope to see you there. All right, buddy, now that we have all of that out of the way, let's jump into this week's case. And, you know, this is one that may bring back some memories for a lot of people, as this

case made a ton of. headlines and it was sort of groundbreaking as far as crimes go. It just wasn't something that you heard a lot about. But with the way that news travels quickly in today's world, this kind of case seems a lot more common. We're talking about the case of Mary Kay Laterno, a 34-year-old teacher and married mother who began an illicit and illegal relationship with her 12-year-old student, Vili Fowlau. when she was arrested and the relationship came to light.

The tabloids couldn't get enough of the story. What followed were a bunch of twists. And if you're not familiar with this case, you may be very surprised at what the final outcome was. There's a new series you may have heard about recently out on Netflix called May December. It's loosely based on the true story of Mary Kay LaTerno and Billy Fulap. Mary started her life on January 30th,

1962. Born Mary Catherine Schmitz in Tustin, California, she was better known to her family and friends as Mary Kay. She had three older siblings and three younger siblings, too. Sadly, when she was 11, her three-year-old brother drowned in the pool. After graduating from Cornelia Connolly High School, an all-girls Catholic school, she attended Arizona State University. In 1984, Mary Kay married fellow Arizona State University student Steve Littorno. Soon, they had their first child. The family ended up moving to Anchorage, Alaska, where Steve was a baggage handler for Alaska Airlines.

They only lived there for one year, moving to Seattle, Washington, when Steve was transferred there for work. While in Seattle, the couple had their second child. In 1989, Mary Kaye received her teaching degree from Seattle University. By 1989, she was teaching second grade at Shorewood Elementary School in Burian, south of Seattle. It was during this time that the Latourna's marriage began to unravel. Neither of them were satisfied in their marriage and both had affairs with other people,

but they stayed together. Within a few years, Mary Kay began to teach older students in the sixth grade. In 1996, she had one student in her class for the second time, a 12-year-old named Vili Fulow. He had been in her second grade class and ended up in her class again for sixth grade. they had been closed when he was her student in 1991. Mary Kay would later tell People magazine of their relationship, there was a respect, an insight, a spirit, an understanding between us that grew over time, describing it as the kind of feeling you have with a brother or sister, a feeling that they're part of your life forever.

Mary Kay became a mentor to him. Billy had a talent for art. he was great at drawing and she took notice. She encouraged him to practice, even buying him art supplies. She also encouraged him to write poetry and took him on educational trips to museums. And more if I didn't say it up front, I probably should have, but you know, this is a case that I just remember so well. And I don't want to give any of the case away for people who don't really know the whole story. but I remember every time someone was interviewed who was involved in this story,

it was like, can't miss TV. You wanted to hear what the people involved had to say over the years. And I want to go back to these comments made by Mary Kay LaTurno to People magazine, talking about, you know, there was a respect, an inside, a spirit. it was a kind of a brother-sister thing. And none of that, even though you might find it kind of strange, that she's saying this about a very young kid, screams criminal. You know, she's trying to help this kid.

She's mentoring this kid. He's great at art. She's trying to, you know, foster that, trying to help him get better at it. Now, obviously, we know things are going, going to go much further than this. And I think for someone that has children, I want my teachers to take an interest in my kids, what they're into, maybe help them expand their horizons as far as developing their

skills or their interests, those kinds of things. What I find kind of odd is, and I don't know what the etiquette is, I'm sure there's teachers out there. And your wife, I know as a teacher, maybe she'd have some insights. on this, but what's the protocol for taking like a student to a museum? You know, it's one thing if it's a class trip and everybody's going on this trip, but when a teacher takes it upon themselves to take your child one on one, to me that's a little bit odd, but I, again, I don't really know what the etiquette is on that. Yeah, I'm sure it does happen and there's nothing wrong

with it whatsoever. Now, my thought is that there are probably a lot of districts that maybe have a policy that specifically prohibits that. And maybe that policy came about as a result of this case or others like it. I don't know. And you mentioned that my wife was a teacher. Maybe it's why we were so invested for the lack of a better term in this case. We were together. We were together. when, you know, this case was unfolding, and my wife was a teacher. So it was of great interest to her. In January 1996, Mary Kay suffered a miscarriage. She also learned that her father had terminal cancer.

Neither of these things were ever easy to go through, but her marriage was already rocky, and these events put more stress on the marriage. She was feeling alone, apparently, and began to take Villain on more trips, even taking him to Alaska once. Now, to some, this might seem like the first warning sign that the relationship between teacher and student wasn't normal across the line. It seems like teachers would set boundaries with their students, keep their personal lives separate, and not take students on trips. But some other people may feel that this is a case of a teacher who cared about a student and wanted to help him. Vili's home life was unstable. His mother worked long hours in a bakery,

and his father was in and out of prison. So some people may look at this as his teacher, an interest in him and trying to nurture his artistic and intellectual abilities. Well, I do think one of the things that we're going to be talking about a lot throughout this episode is where is the line and when does someone cross that line? Now, we talk about that in a lot of episodes, but I think this one especially, it's going to come up in many instances. And, you know, let's take a look at a teacher, you know, taking a student on vacation. Okay.

Does that cross the line? And I think a lot of people would look at it and say, yeah, absolutely. It does. But then things went even further. Billy slept over at Mary Kay's house often. Once he proposed to her with a ring. He had found on the ground. She took off her wedding ring from Steve LaTerno and replaced it with villies.

After that, she wore it each day at school, taking care to switch back to her wedding ring before she saw her husband. So again, we look at the line. You know, he's going on a vacation with her. He's sleeping over at her house. And I think by and large, most people would say at least when it came to their own children, this is not something that they would want or think was appropriate. Yeah, and I think the line to me is clearly cross sleeping over at the teacher's house. It would be one thing if your child is good friends with the teacher's child and they just

happen to be your teacher and you're having a sleep over at your friend's house. I mean, that's one thing. But to, you know, as far as we know, he wasn't friendly with her kids and he seemed to be sleeping over there to spend time with her. To me, that's just. crossing such a line that I'd definitely put my foot down and start asking questions. One thing is very clear, and that is at some point, whatever relationship or bond Mary Kay had with Villy, it clearly crossed the line. At 120 in the morning on June 19, 1996, Mary Kay and Ville were

found by authorities in her van, which was parked at the Des Moines Marina. They had both been in the back of the van, but Mary Kay had jumped into the front when officers approached. In the back, Billy pretended to be asleep, but the officers weren't buying his story. Neither of them gave up their real names, and 12-year-old Billy claimed that he was 18. Officers took them both in for questioning, but they both denied that anything untoward had happened. After his real age was discovered, Mary Kay claimed she was just babysitting, Billy at the time. A detective called Billy's aunt, who said he was allowed to be with Mary Kay. A second call, this time to Villy's mother, confirmed this. Neither them were told that the

two had been spotted under a blanket in the back of her van, only that they were found together. Both of them would later say that it would have been a different story if they had understood exactly what was going on, that Mary Kay and Villy were having a sexual encounter. And I want to clarify that having sex is not the right term in this discussion. Sex is something that happens between two concerning adults. So let's not mince words. Mary Kay was raping, Billy. And I do think that there is a discussion to be.

had here because, you know, it seems obvious that members of Billy's family knew that he was with Mary Kay. And I got to sense more if that they even knew that the two were maybe even alone. But according to them, they had no idea that this relationship had in any way turned sexual. because if they had, then they said things would have been different. And for me, this goes back to the whole idea of if your kids are spending an unusual amount of time with their teacher outside of school, that would have set off alarm bells for me. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I can also see a scenario where the family is happy that someone is taking an interest in Vili. they're trying to, you know, further his artistic abilities.

And maybe they would never think that, you know, this woman, this married mother would have a sexual interest in their child. I could see that as well. It turns out that this Trist at the Marina was not their first time together. According to Vili, the first time was at the Laterno home. Steve was away for work. And the four Leterno children, just barely younger than Villy, were asleep in another room. In February 1997, Steve Laterno found hidden love letters from Mary Kay to Vili Fowl.

He told one of his family members who was the one to sound the alarm. They called CPS and the school informing them of the inappropriate relationship. Billy was less than two years older than the Lacherno's oldest child. So I think that helps put it into a bit of perspective. And we have to talk more about Steve finding these letters and realizing just exactly what his wife was doing. Now, he may have had an inkling. He may have had some thoughts that, okay, she's spending too much. time with him. I don't know exactly what thoughts were going through his mind, but I think the

finding of the letters removes all doubt about what's going on. Yeah, that had to be shocking to find those letters. And whether he had an inkling or not, that had to be a very hard thing to deal with. But then what does he do in that situation? Does he call the police? You know, does he confront her? In this situation, he told someone else. And they, contacted the authorities, but it had to be quite a, quite an ordeal when that happened. On March 4, 1997, Mary Kay LaTorna was arrested in charge with second-degree child rape. This was almost an entire year after they had been found together in the back of her van. News of the arrest shocked area residents, as well as faculty at the school.

And the headlines were even more unbelievable when it was revealed that she was seven months pregnant with Vili's baby. He was in seventh grade in facing fatherhood. This was undeniable evidence that the two had been intimate. Mary Kay couldn't pretend that they had a normal and appropriate mentor-mente relationship, even if she wanted to. She was released on bail. And for her part, Mary Kay said that this wasn't her original plan to take advantage of really. In fact, she later told people magazine that she was confused by her feelings for him,

at first saying, I didn't know what it meant, but then she added, almost in contradiction, I felt that one day he might marry my daughter. In May of 1997, while Vili Fulow was just 13 years old, he and Mary Kay, by then 35, had their first child together. It was a baby girl that they named Audrey.

Reality and anger set in for Mary Kay's husband, Steve Leterno, and understandably so. He was mad. He told the San Bernardino County son, it's craziness, just absolute craziness. If she thinks I will let that continue in front of my children, it will be over my dead body.

But unfortunately, their four children were aware of pretty much everything that had happened. Steve told the paper, it was flaunted right in their face, the whole courtship of this boy and their mother. So we talked a little bit about, you know, Steve finding these letters. Okay, I'm sure he wasn't happy. I imagine a lot of discussions being had about, you know, what do these letters mean? What is really going on? But when your wife has a child with this student that's talked about in the letters, it pretty much removes all doubt.

I mean, there's really no getting around it. There's no talking your way out of it at that point. also let's go back to this brother-sister relationship that makes that statement even more creepy and then the other part is you know kind of steve talking about the fact that his kids were involved and they saw all of this kind of go down at least the the courtship portion you can understand why this guy would be hopping mad yeah it's one thing for steve as an adult to have to deal with but for kids that are younger than Billy is in this situation, they've got a lot of their plate as it is,

just being kids and, you know, I'm thinking back to when I was at age, you're learning about yourself and your family and how things are supposed to be. And then all of a sudden, this grenade gets thrown in and really blows everything up. I feel really bad for the kids in this situation,

because what were they thinking? You know, my mom's leaving my dad, for someone who's younger, who's barely older than me. Just a, just an unimaginable situation, I think, for these kids. Well, how many times do we talk about, you know, the lives of serial killers? And, you know, a lot of things that happen in their childhood that seems really messed up. I'm not saying these kids are going to go on to be serial killers, but these are formative years. So what are they learning?

that it's okay to have a sexual relationship with, you know, someone who's just a couple of years younger than me at the time? On August 7, 1997, Mary Kay pleaded guilty to two counts of second-degree rape of a minor. Billy's mother, Suna, asked the judge for a light sentence, saying that her son would carry this guilt with him as long as she was in jail. I feel Mary has been punished enough for her mistake. Mary Kay did receive a late sentence, though the total sentence, was seven and a half years, she would only have to spend six months of that in prison. The rest would be suspended, provided she comply with the court's orders. She had to attend sex offender treatment programs, take medication to treat bipolar disorder,

and most importantly of all, she had to cut off all contact with Vili. These all should have been very easy things to do for someone who had made a mistake and just wanted to get their life back on track. But spoiler alert, that didn't happen. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency? We just walked in the door, and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible.

A new series from ABC Audio in 2020, blood and water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. In January of 1998, Mary Kay was released from prison. By February, she had already begun to see Vili Fowl again and had stopped taking her prescribed medication. Both of these things were against court orders. Prosecure Lisa Johnson would later tell People Magazine she doesn't believe she needs treatment because she doesn't believe she did anything wrong. Mary Kay and Ville were caught in her car once again at 2.40 in the morning. Despite claims that they had just been talking and reconnecting, it was very obvious that Mary Kay was back to her old ways as if nothing had happened. And just like before,

their trist resulted in Mary Kay becoming pregnant. Once again, by Billy. Just like with her first pregnancy, she couldn't deny that they had been having inappropriate sexual, contact. There would be clear living proof. Troubling to investigators was that it also seemed like Mary Kay and Villy may have been getting ready to flee together. There was $6,500 in cash, a passport, and a bunch of baby clothes in the car with them. Due to a violation of the very clear court orders, Mary Kay was re-arrested and taken to prison to serve the rest of her seven and a half years. Mary Kay's attorney, David Gerke, tried to somehow spin the situation to the court, saying, society does not.

not need to be protected from Mary Kay Latourne. The person that really needs to be protected from Mary Kaye Lettono is Mary Kay Lettono. And I think, you know, one of the things that really jumped out here morph to me was that it seems as though Mary Kay was very willing to take the chance that she would have to go back and serve out the rest of this prison sentence. But I also want to dive back into what the prosecutor told People magazine. She doesn't believe she needs treatment because she doesn't believe she did anything wrong. And it's that last part of it that is probably so telling. You get the sense that it's almost as if no matter what all these people have been saying,

including prosecutors and judges and, you know, let's not forget people online weighing in or people putting their two cents in. She just can't wrap her head around the fact that this relationship is wrong. Yeah, she's an adult. She's a teacher. So you think she has to comprehend that it's against the law to have been doing what she was doing and then to go to court and then them say, okay, you get out on this one condition or these series of conditions.

And if you break these conditions, you go back to jail. it's pretty clear, pretty black and white, yet she chose to, for whatever reason, to just not pay attention to those rules. In March of 1998, Mary Kay and Audrey, her daughter with Vili, were on the cover of People magazine. By then, Vili had dropped out of high school in October of 1998 while back in prison. Mary Kay gave birth to her second child, another daughter with Vili Fulow. Billy's mom sooner was granted custody of both girls.

That year, a friend of Mary Kay's gave an interview to people saying, I would imagine they will get married. As soon as she gets out of prison, the two of them want to be together. They're drawn together like magnets. Mary Kay backed that thinking up telling Oprah Winfrey in a jailhouse interview. This young man is the love of my life. King County Attorney Rebecca Rowe, who spent almost two decades prosecuting sex offenders push back on that notion telling the spokesman,

that's what all offenders say. Guys say that about six-year-olds, they abuse. I think that brings to light perhaps what may be a bit of a double standard. While what Mary Kay did was clearly wrong and illegal, there wasn't kind of the same overwhelming shock and outrage. Imagine if the teacher in this situation was a man and the student being abused and becoming pregnant was a 12-year-old girl. It seems as though the anger would have been a lot more palpable. I'm not sure why there seems to be a difference in the outrage, but at the end of the day, in either situation, a teacher taking advantage of their 12-year-old student is wrong, period, flat out.

So let's talk about maybe this double standard a little bit. I mean, make no doubt about it, there were tons of people who thought what Mary Kay LaTerno was doing, had done was completely wrong. But, you know, when we talk about kind of flipping it, where this was a male teacher and a 12 or 13 year old female student, would there have been the same coverage by People magazine? Would they have been interviewed? would Oprah have interviewed this man? And I just don't think it would have happened the same way, where this man was allowed to say kind of that, you know,

this girl was his soulmate and they were meant to be together and in all of that. I also think there may have been a difference in sentencing. I really do. Yeah, that's a good point that the sentence could have. been different despite the crime being the same thing. But for whatever reason, it seems like society is more accepting of it being in this situation, a female teacher and a male student, even though it's the same crime. It definitely seems like there's more outrage and more anger when it's a man doing this. But either way, it's clearly wrong. Steve Letourne spoke to Oprah from Alaska,

and he wasn't pleased that Suna Fulow seemed okay with her son being with Mary Kay. He told Oprah, I've heard that. And basically, that makes me sick. Whether or not Suna condone the relationship, and I'm really not sure that she did, it was eventually going to happen. And there were two children in the mix. So maybe she felt that if she pushed back on the relationship, she would push her son away and out of her life.

So it's hard to know what she was thinking without being in her shoes. In May 1999, Steve and Mary Kay Leterno were officially divorced. He was also granted full custody of their children, which, you know, does kind of seem like a no-brainer. When you look at her charges and their situation, he moved back to Alaska and eventually remarried, trying to start his life over and escape the headlines. In 2002, Suna Falaoout sued the Highline School District and the Des Moines Washington Police Department for negligence due to their failure to act and protect her son. The suit asked for $1 million. According to her, it was impossible for Villy to go anywhere without being recognized.

As his attorney Cyrus Vance Jr. put it, everywhere he goes, he is known as the kid who slept with his teacher. Plus, there had to be repercussions from becoming a father at such a young age. Besides child care, he would likely need therapy, which is not cheap, Cyrus Vance explained. Vili did not have the emotional maturity to understand the consequences of what he was getting into. Yeah, I think that really underscores the fact that he was a 12-year-old having this inappropriate relationship with a teacher, an adult who knew better. She knows what can happen, what the long-term outlook might be.

He is a 12-year-old kid. So he didn't know that going in. So I think it really backs up that he was a child and couldn't fathom what he was getting into. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. 12-year-olds don't always understand the consequences of little things, let alone something like this. And again, we say understand the consequences, but that almost makes it sound like he had a choice. and I don't know what choice he had or if he had the understanding that he even had a choice. I don't know that.

Reportedly, Mary Kay had seduced Vili by offering to take off one piece of her clothing for each answer he got right. It was basically strip tutoring. In 1996, a janitor found the two in a faculty restroom with the lights off. And incredibly, nothing was done. The two were then spotted slow dancing together in front of, students and teachers. However, their first actual sexual encounter wasn't until summer break, and it happened off campus. Ultimately, a jury found that neither the school district or the police department were responsible for what Villy went through. And I do think, you know,

that's a tough one. Because if you can't prove that the school knew something was going on, or that the police knew something was going on. I don't know how you can find them or hold them responsible. And the school, obviously she didn't have a record of any kind. So it's not like they hired someone with a history of this and failed to protect Villy. It wasn't on school grounds, although some of the stuff was witnessed on school grounds.

So in a way, I do blame the school. You know, they're slow dancing at a dance together. the janitor catches them, you know, why wasn't anything done? Maybe that could have prevented what Billy ultimately went through. As far as the police, unless they have a tip that something's happening or something along those lines, where are they supposed to come in? You know, it's not like anyone called them and made them aware this was going on. Well, and I would say the same thing about the school.

Yes, maybe some people witnessed something, thought they saw something that might have been inappropriate, but was that communicated to the school administration? And I'm assuming it wasn't because if they could have proved that it was, I think maybe the trial would have gone differently. While she was in prison, Mary Kay seemed as though she had constant violations, trying to slip letters to Vili. She spent 18 total months in solitary. Eventually, she started following the rules and became a model prisoner. She recorded books on tape for the blind, just like serial killer Ed Kemper.

She also tutored other inmates, putting her teaching skills to work behind bars. The prison she was in had a choir that she sang in, and she regularly attended Catholic Mass. In August of 2004, Mary Kay was released from prison just before her release. Billy was interviewed by King TV about what he was. was thinking and feeling, he said, I don't know what my feelings are right now, but I know that I do love

her. Once she was free, there was still a no contact order in place between her and Villy, who was now an adult, but they were able to get it dropped. As required, Mary Kaye registered as a level two sex offender in the state of Washington. She would never be able to teach again. And until she completed three years of treatment, she wouldn't be allowed around any minors, even her own biological children without supervision. Now as consenting adults, there was nothing that could legally keep Mary Kay and Vili apart. And on May 20th, 2005, the 43-year-old Mary Kay and her now 21-year-old former student, Vili Fulow, were married in a ceremony at a Woodinville Washington winery. Mary Kay became a paralegal. Villy tried his hand at DJing.

going by the name DJ headline. In May 2009, they appeared together for Hot for Teacher Night at a sports bar in Seattle, not shying away from their notorious relationship. In 2010, Mary Kay's oldest son with Steve Latourne had a child. Now she, and by extension 28-year-old Villy, were grandparents. And I think more if this is another big part of the fascination of this case for many people, you had what Mary Kay did. with Villy when he was young.

And we've talked about it. It was criminal. It was horrible. She was sentenced. She did the time that she was required to do. And then, you know, you kind of have this second part of it where they were both now adults and in love with each other. And, you know, they were on talk shows and they were being interviewed. And I think people were just.

kind of fascinated with how this thing continued to play out over the year. Yeah, and that's the part that's hard for me to grasp personally is how this, you know, this started as something purely wrong and illegal. But as adults, they were still together and in love and there's nothing that could be done legally to stop them. So there's a real contrast there between when this started and then later on in their relationship. Yeah, it's almost like there's two different acts to the story. Though he made the best of it all, things weren't always easy for Billy. In 2015, he told 2020 about his struggle saying,

I'm surprised I'm still alive today. I went through a really dark time, he said. He was 15 years old with baby girls and wasn't allowed to speak to their mother, his quote partner and his mentor. It was a lot to handle even without all of the scrutiny. Billy said, I don't feel like I have the right support, the right help behind me from my family, from anyone in general. I mean, my friends couldn't help me because they had no idea what it was like to be a parent. I mean, because we were all 14, 15. And just think about this for a minute.

More from member back to what it was like for you being a, let's say a 14, 15 year old kid. Things were hard enough. getting through school, navigating crushes, trying to make the sports teams, you know, things like that. Well, for Vili, he was a quasi-celebrity. You know, people wanted to know what was going on with him because of, you know, this criminal act that had transpired. And here he was the father of two girls at an age where, you know, kids can't really

even take care of themselves at that. that point. It's been a while now, but I'm thinking back to when I was 14, 15 years old and, you know, I wanted to sleep in. I wanted to hang out with my friends. I wanted to go out and play sports after school, you know, I was just getting interested in girls, that kind of thing. So you have that versus someone now that has to change diapers and stay home and spend time with their young babies, basically. It's just a life. altering experience and talk about having to mature really quickly. I'm sure this really was a wake-up call for him as to what it's like to be a responsible parent. And more if I didn't become a parent

until I was 27 years old. And even then, I remember how tough it was. I just can't imagine having that, you know, kind of thrust upon me at the age of 1415. But that's where I go back to a child. not understanding consequences. That's why the adults are supposed to understand and not cross the line. But that's not what happened here. We know that. As a parent, Billy didn't want his daughters to start dating too young

and made sure to warn them about ending up in a relationship with the wrong person. He told ABC News, the reason for me telling them that was just from out of experience. It's really interesting to me that he went on to explain that a relationship could lead to something that you think you wanted back then. You don't really want it, maybe years later. It's clear that despite not leaving Mary Kay, Billy knew what happened was wrong.

He said, I don't support younger kids being married or having a relationship with someone older. He said this when he was 33 and Mary Kay was 55. And again, I remember watching, you know, these types of interviews because I was fascinated by, you know,

what transpired over the years and what their relationship became. And it's like you said, more interesting to hear Vili say that he wouldn't want his daughters to have to go through what he did, even though he ended up, you know, marrying their mother, saying he was in love with her. It's just, there's just a real dichotomy to this story that I have. I think grabbed people and fascinated them.

In 2017, Steve LaTurna was contacted by People magazine for an interview, but said only, I've moved on and I have nothing to say. And really, when you think about it, how can you blame him? He didn't ask to be kind of thrust into the spotlight. It couldn't have been easy for him any of it. And we mentioned it, right? He got remarried. he went on with his life.

I'm sure the last thing he wanted to do was kind of dredge all of this back up. In May of 2017, Billy filed for a separation from Mary Kay. After this, the two were off and on. As they tried to reconcile their relationship, Mary Kay's attorney, David Gerke, told people magazine, I'm convinced they were totally in love.

It may mean nothing but timing-wise, this was the year that Villy turned 34, the same age that Mary Kay was when the two began their inappropriate relationship. Maybe Ville looked at other college-aged kids and high school kids, his daughter's classmates, and realized just how big that 22-year age gap really was, and it wore on him. Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset. This season let therapy be part of your spring cleaning.

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That's growtherapy.com slash book now. Growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. In February of 2018, Billy made headlines again when he crashed the Mercedes who was driving in Burying Washington. He failed the first part of a field sobriety test, but it was ended after Mary Kaye arrived unseen and told him not to cooperate any further. As a result, he was charged with a DUI. That same year, a couple gave an interview to Sunday night, a news show in Australia. This awkward interview inspired a scene in the Netflix movie May

December, and it's one of the scenes everyone is talking about online, because it's so unbelievable. as described in People magazine. The scene played out with Mary Kay asking Villy over and over, Who was the boss? Who was the boss? Who was the boss back then? Who was the boss back then? Villy shifts his glance back and forth between her and the interviewer, Matt Doren.

As Ville begins to look even more uncomfortable, she says to him, who was? Just say. Still looking back and forth, Billy says, this is ridiculous. This is getting weird. After a very long time, he finally says, I was the pursuer, bringing Mary Kay's prodding to an end.

This episode was taped months before the couple finally separated, and it seemed very uncomfortable. It really didn't seem like a relationship that could be saved at that point. It seemed as if Mary Kay really didn't feel she had done anything wrong. And even in 2019, she was making that claim telling People magazine, if someone had told me, if anyone had told me, there is a specific law that says, a crime, I didn't know, claiming that she didn't realize it was illegal to have sex with a minor. And I really thought this was kind of ridiculous, to be honest with you more. You know, I mentioned kind of watching everything I could about this case. That included a lot of

interviews with Mary Kay Letterno. She seemed on the surface to be a fairly bright individual. I just can't imagine that she didn't know, that it was illegal to have sex with a 12-year-old boy. I find that very hard to believe. Yeah. And, you know, why she didn't just own it and say, okay, I made a mistake. I shouldn't have done it, but I did. And I did my sentence. And I've moved on.

She just sort of dismissed it as if she didn't know to begin with. And I just think that's a real cop out. she was an adult, a teacher. You know, she, you think she would know what's appropriate, what laws need to be followed in a position to be caring for kids and teaching them. So I don't buy it for a second. No, I really don't either. It seems to me that, you know, it's almost as if she just couldn't bring herself to

admit to that part, right, that it was wrong. And she'd already done her time. She could have said, hey, you know, what I did was wrong. I did my time. We're both adults now. We're in love. She could have said all of those things. But to kind of keep with the I didn't know it was wrong, that just, it doesn't ring true.

In 2019, the separation between Mary Kay and Vili was final. They remained friendly, though. On July 6th of the following year, 2020, 58-year-old Mary Kay Lettono passed away at home in Des Moines, Washington. Billy and her children were said to be by her side until the very end. She had been diagnosed with colon cancer

just six months earlier. Her father had also died from cancer at age 70. A joint statement from the Fulow and Leturno family read, Mary fought tirelessly against this terrible disease. We did our very best to care for Mary, and one another as we kept her close and stayed close together. According to a source close to Billy, he talked to her right before she passed and they said everything they needed to say.

58. That is so young. And I think, you know, you kind of have to look at it in the light that, yes, she did these things. She paid the price for doing what she did. But then there's this other side where, you know, she was a mother. She had family. She was diagnosed with this, you know, horrible cancer and died, you know, fairly young. Despite marrying Mary Kay and agreeing that he was with her consensually, in 2020,

Billy Falau told Dr. Oz that he wouldn't make the same choices she did. Billy said, I couldn't look at a 13-year-old and be attracted to that because it's just not in my brain. it's nothing that I'm attracted to. I mean, we all have our preferences, and that's just not something that I would go towards, he explained. I found it telling that when asked what he thought he would do, if he found himself attracted to someone 22 years younger than him, and a minder, he replied, I'd probably go and seek some help. So this is interesting in the fact that he obviously knows that what happened,

was wrong. And I don't know that, you know, Mary Kay ever got to that point, at least publicly. Now, behind the scenes, that might have been a different story, but it's very obvious that, you know, he's telling Dr. Oz how wrong this was and that he could never do that, never would do that. Yeah, and I think it goes back to an adult looking at a situation versus a 12-year-old because when he was 12, and he got in this relationship, he didn't know what he was doing. And as this adult looking back, he's pretty much saying that this is wrong. It's not something that should have happened. So just a strange situation.

Yeah, and I think it's important, you know, to recognize that he was so young that none of the blame goes on him, right? He was a child. All of it has to go. on Mary Kay Laterno, the adult. One weird thing worth mentioning is that Mary Kay's father, John Schmitz, had two secret children resulting from an affair that was revealed in 1982, just one year before Vili Flau was born. Schmitz was running for Senate, and his chances at winning his Senate race were dashed by this news becoming public. The woman he had an affair with was a former

student of his at Santa Ana College, where he taught political science. Right around the time he was diagnosed with terminal cancer, Mary Kay started this inappropriate relationship with Billy. It's possibly just coincidental, but with Mary Kay's suspected mental health issues, it's possibly related. Perhaps the news Mary Kay got about her father affected her decision-making. According to Seattle-based investigative reporter Linda Byron in a People magazine article, Mary Kay Latourna was devastated by her father's betrayal. Michelle Lobdell, Mary Kay's childhood best friend, said, I noticed a very, very palpable change in her after the story about her dad broke. She ended up imitating her father, Lobdo pointed out, saying she repeated what he did,

but on a much more ugly scale. And this is a pretty, you know, interesting connection that a lot of people, you know, make. I do think one thing we probably haven't touched on enough is Mary Kay suspected mental health issues, we did mention it earlier, talking about being treated for bipolar disorder. I don't know what the full extent of her mental health issues were, but you would have to think if there were some there, they played a role, some role in how all of this went down. And maybe if it was severe enough, or depending what she was dealing with, maybe it could have

affected her decision making. And that's something I don't think we truly know the answer to. But it does kind of go back to a statement that her attorney made early on saying that Mary Kay LaTerno needs to be protected from Mary Kay Leuterno. And I think that's kind of what he was getting at with that statement. In 2022, Billy Fowow had his third child, another daughter with a new partner. In November of 2003, Mary Kay's youngest daughter, Georgia, was set to deliver a baby boy, which was Billy's first biological grandchild.

Georgia told People Magazine, I think maybe at first it would be kind of shocking because I am her baby, but after that, she'd be the most excited grandmother to be. She said, Billy was excited to be a grandfather in already buying baby stuff for her and giving her hand-me-downs from her baby sister. As we mentioned, this case was a sensation in the news, both early on and years later. The tabloids went absolutely wild with it. Legally and morally, there's no such thing as consensual sex with a child. Instead of calling it what it was, the sexual assault and grooming of a child, the media referred to this as a trist or an affair and a relationship, painting the two as star-crossed lovers just fighting to be with each other.

some called Mary Kay a cradle robber and others called Villy jailbate. They called them lovers and it was treated as a fun sex scandal and not something shameful and damaging. Yeah, there were multiple People magazine articles about this case, multiple interviews, including, you know, the one with Oprah. And I'm not taking a shot at People Magazine or Oprah, but it does seem as though the attention that, you know, they gave to the story. kind of glamorized the inappropriate relationship.

And something we touched on earlier was, you know, kind of what if this was a male teacher, abusing a 12-year-old female student? A story from 1998 in the Seattle Times noted, if this was a 35-year-old man who impregnated a 13-year-old girl, he'd be in jail and there'd be no national story. And I kind of agree with that. It might be reported on.

I'm not saying it would be a non-story, but I don't think it would get the attention. And he certainly wouldn't be doing interviews with Oprah or People magazine. Mary Kayla Turner is far from the only female teacher to molester or soul to student. But for some reason, her case is the one that the media really latched onto. And, you know, this is something that, you and I have talked about before more,

why do some cases kind of grab people's attention or, you know, why does the media kind of latch on to certain cases where others, which are very similar, don't grab people or are not covered as extensively by the national media? Yeah, I think it has something to do with the way social media and, news breaking, you get it on your phone instantly and cable.

There's so many sources that it can come rapid fire that any of these cases, anywhere that it happens, you can find out about quickly. But back then when this story broke, it was sort of, you know, although things like this had happened, this was sort of one that made it to the forefront and just was really big news and top of mind for a lot of people. I think there's no question you have to really feel bad. for Villy in this case. His life was totally rearranged and he was thrust into the spotlight.

But Anne Bremner, the Seattle attorney who represented the Des Moines Police Department and the Highline School District in the lawsuit brought by Villy's mother in 2002, and who later became a friend of Mary Kay's, said of Ville and Mary Kay's relationship. He loved her. There's no question that was a love story. But what he went through left him very damaged. On the other hand, he's got this wonderful family and a grandchild on the way. Bramner noted that this case was complicated and explained that prosecutors believed that a pedophile could never be stopped, and it was almost like a compulsion, and it was unusual, in fact, unheard of for pedophilic cases to have only one victim. Bremner, who is extremely sympathetic to her Laterno, watched May December and said it was a good

depiction of the case. As far as we know, Mary Kaye, Littorno never had any relationships with any other students, but having just one was one too many. If you or someone you know has been a victim of sexual abuse, you can text strength to the crisis text line at 741-741 to be connected to a certified crisis counselor. If you suspect child abuse of any kind, including the sexual assault of a child, you can call 911 to report it. Some more of it is we wrap up the seven. episode. You know, like I said in the beginning, I remember parts of this case very vividly.

I remember the interviews watching. And I said, you know, my wife was a teacher back then. She still is. But I think because of that, this story had an added element for her. Because Mary Kaye Letterno was a teacher, I do agree with Anne Bremner in the fact that this case was complicated. But I'm not as sympathetic towards Mary Kay LaTerno as maybe she is. You know, it is true that, you know, Villey has this wonderful family, a grandchild on the way. All of that is true. I just can't separate the fact of how it all started. and, you know, really the damage that was done to him by Mary Kay Lettuna, regardless of,

you know, whether they got married later on, they had, you know, these children, grandchildren, I get all that. I just have a hard time separating that part out from how it started and what she did. And I don't think anyone's saying that Mary Kay was a secretary. predator that was constantly abusing multiple students. It seems from all the evidence that her inappropriate relationship was just with Vili, but again, that's one too many. And overwhelmingly, teachers are a great resource for our kids. We trust them. We want them to do good by our kids and help shape their minds and turn them into responsible educated adults. And I think overwhelmingly, most teachers are like that.

But unfortunately, we do know there are some bad apples in the bunch. Yeah, absolutely. And you can say that about every profession, right? There are bad police officers. There are bad doctors, bad nurses. We've covered some of those that give the rest of those in the their profession a bad name. They cast a, you know, a negative light on the entire profession. I know. I think at the end of the day, there are people who are going to have different opinions

on this entire saga. And I'll call it that because of how long it actually went on in the different almost like chapters of it. But again, I kind of focus in on the beginning. When Ville was 12, 13, she was in her 30s. There's no way that anyone is ever going to convince me that Mary Kay LaTurno really didn't know what she was doing was not only wrong, but illegal. And she said that. I just cannot buy it. Now, maybe in her mind, she thought it wasn't wrong because for whatever reason, she felt this connection. She mentioned that, you know, on multiple occasions, this connection that she had with Billy. I think it's clear that here we are talking about this case, almost three decades after it happened, they were still doing people articles about it.

they're doing Netflix shows based on the case. So that's a clear indication that for whatever reason, this case just resonated with people and it's one that they were interested in and continued to be interested in. Yeah, that part, there is no doubt about that this case. And maybe it was because it was covered so extensively that that helped the consumption of the story and thereby helped fuel people,

to want to know more about it, those things kind of go hand in hand, right? The more coverage, the more people become interested in something, possibly. But this is one of those cases that, you know, people remember seeing interviews on the news, reading about it in magazine articles, may even remember the emotions they felt while, watching an interview. But at the end of the day, I mean, for me, there's just no doubt. What she did was wrong. It was illegal. It was morally reprehensible in my view. But then we talk about, you know, their, their oldest daughter getting ready to have a baby. So I think that

kind of highlights what a strange kind of case it really is. But that's it for our episode on Mary Kay LaTerno if you love the show, but haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, give us a five-star rating. You can leave a review, but also keep telling your friends. That word of mouth about the podcast really goes a long way. If you want to find us on social media, we're on X with the handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash criminology podcast. And you can join our Facebook discussion group, criminology podcast, discussion in fans. So that's it for another. episode of criminology. But Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night for a

brand new episode. So until then, for Mike and Morph. We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.