Criminology - Raegan Anderson and Chandler Khubander

Episode Date: July 14, 2024

On June 25th, 2024, Raegan Anderson and Chandler Khubander disappeared from Hinesville, Georgia. The police put out a BOLO for the pair after family members and co-workers became worried. Raegan and Chandler were both 24-year-old firefighters who previously had a relationship that lasted seven years. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the mysterious disappearance and deaths of Raegan Anderson and Chandler Khubander. On June 30th, 2024, the bodies of both Raegan and Chandler were found inside her Ford Focus in Cosby, Tennessee. They mysteries are still being revealed but the questions are numerous. How and why did the two end up in Tennessee and exactly what caused their deaths? There have been reports that Raegan was suicidal after the breakup and a serious of incidents that rocked her life.  You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology   An Emash Digital production

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Listener discretion is advised. So, everyone, and welcome to episode 316 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Morph, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing good. Family went to visit family and friends back in New Jersey, and I'm sitting here a little bit bored already. You know, I use that time to be a little bit productive, but I find myself missing them all. and, you know, I just thought about that when we came on to record here. Yeah, it's, I'm the same way.

You know, if my wife and girls, which doesn't happen very often, but if they go, you know, let's say for a week somewhere, the first couple of days is great. It's a little bit of me time. But then after the first day, a couple days, I'm like, man, I really miss them. Please come back. Yeah, that time off, that time where it's quiet, you can be productive and get some recordings and stuff knocked out, but then, you know, that silence can be a pretty tough after a well. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Bronwyn Co.

And Hannah Kate Tomlin. So great new support. We really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much for supporting the show. It really helps us out. And for anyone else that would like to, you can do so by going to Patreon.com slash criminology. All right, buddy, it's time to jump into this episode. And this week, we're talking about a tragic case that very recently made headlines and has yet to completely unfold. At first, police and loved ones wondered what happened to two well-liked firefighters in Heinsville, Georgia. But as the case unfolded, and details began to emerge, their community was shocked and saddened, and in the end, may never fully get the answers they are seeking.

We're talking about the disappearance and deaths of Reagan Anderson and Chandler Kubander. Hinesville, Georgia is located in the southeastern part of the state on the Atlantic coastal plain, with a population of 35,000 people. It's the county seat of Liberty County. On June 26, 2024, the Hinesville Police Department pulled out a Bolo or Be on the Lookout Alert on Facebook. It looked like an amber alert, which most of us are familiar with, but instead of a photo of a possible vehicle and information about a missing child and an adult they might be with, The post contained photos of two adults and a black Ford Focus. The two missing people were Reagan Anderson and Chandler Kubander, who were both 24-year-old firefighters.

Chandler was a senior firefighter with the Liberty County Fire Department and Reagan was a lieutenant. And this is something that, you know, I've been seeing in a lot of cases that I've been doing recently morph and it's that, you know, how quickly information can get out today with social media. You think about an agency putting a bolow out on Facebook and how many people that can reach instantly, as opposed to, you know, back when we were younger, there was just very limited ways to get the word out. Now, you could put something out on the news, but it wasn't probably going to go out right that second. It was going to be later in the day. Yeah, I think there's no doubt you can get information out quickly and get people,

looking and reporting anything that you want reported, keeping your eyes and ears open. And as we're going to get into, this was a pretty serious situation, which is why they decided they needed to put that alert out there. This case made headlines not only because two people vanished at once, which is not all that common, but also because they happen to be firefighters in the same department. But their connection was deeper because Chandler and Reagan had previously dated. They were high school sweethearts. Reagan Anderson and Chandler Kubander met while they were both in high school at Bradwell Institute in Hinesville, Georgia.

They had dated for about seven years. It was Chandler who broke off the relationship, which his mom has called toxic. Their breakup had to be awkward. They were high school sweethearts and we all know how intense those relationships can be. So now there was a situation where after the breakup, the pair had to work. together. And you can only imagine how difficult that situation might have been. To be clear, we aren't sure if they always worked out of one central firehouse or had to work out of multiple firehouses in the county, depending on where they were needed. And I've never been a firefighter

myself, but I've known a few firefighters. And what I understand, that's a very stressful job. And then you have, you know, the stress of the job on top of a relationship that ends in their working, together and it's got to be, you know, pretty tough, I imagine to be in that situation. And by the way, just shout out to all the firefighters and first responders in general that might be listening, you know, real heroes and they go into the situations most of us are running from. But the flip side of that is there is a stress level there that, you know, often compounds relationships.

Yeah, I echo those sentiments, but I also want to piggyback off of what you're saying as far as, I think anytime you're in a relationship, and this one started before they work together. But anytime you're in a relationship where you're working together and then that relationship ends, and you still have to work together, that can be very awkward. There's just no way around it. You're seeing somebody probably day in and day out that you once had this intimate relationship with, and now it's over. Both people might be at some point seeing other people. It's just, it's not ideal. And it's one thing if it's an amicable breakup and both parties are in a good

place and they're okay with the relationship ending, but if one of them's not, then it can definitely make for some, some stormy waters. For time, everything seemed to be okay, but that all changed on June 22nd, 2004. Chandler and Reagan had been broken up since sometime in 2023, and Chandler seemed to be ready to date again, and on that Saturday, he went out for a date with a woman at an Olive Garden in Polar, Georgia. As for Reagan, she apparently wasn't ready to let go of their relationship. Reagan ended up following them into the restaurant, causing some sort of scene interrupting Chandler's dinner. You can probably imagine that Chandler wasn't only just frustrated by this, but he was also embarrassed that this was happening

in front of not only his date, but an entire restaurant full of people. Chandler's date had enough and started to leave the Olive Garden, but Reagan followed them into the parking lot. Once they got the Chandler's car, Reagan damaged it by dragging her key along the paint. She also smashed the windshield. Well, more if you used the word amicable a little bit earlier, obviously what we're talking about here was not amicable at all. I mean, you can imagine this scene inside of a restaurant.

That would be bad enough. You're on a first date. There's probably a whole bunch of other people in this restaurant. It would be embarrassing. But then what happened outside in the parking lot, Reagan keying his car, smashing the windshield. Now you're getting into some criminal acts. And as we're going to get into, this is the beginning of a real

downside. Reagan left the scene and went to a nearby Walmart that was less than a mile away. She was followed there by officers and arrested. Surprisingly, most articles in this case only mentioned that she keyed his car and got arrested. Not that she actually broke someone's windshield after accosting them and practically chasing someone out of an establishment. Reagan was charged with criminal damage to property in the second degree, as well as disobeyed disorderly conduct. She claimed that she had been passing the Olive Garden on her way to pick up a pizza at a different restaurant when she recognized Chandler's car in the parking lot. According to People Magazine, she told officers that she was very hurt by him moving on and that they had been together

for a long time. In her mugshot, she is looking down, but some might say the word for the look on her face is despondent. She posted separate bonds. She posted separate bonds. for each charge and was released from custody. So while Reagan didn't hurt anyone physically in this incident, it's still troubling. It still shows a tendency for violence that she would do this to his car, frighten them, chase them out. And, you know, it was a real warning sign,

I think that she wasn't in a good place after this breakup. Yeah, I don't think she was in a good place at all. I mean, she said it to people, right? She was very hurt by the fact that. Chandler was moving on. This had been a seven-year relationship, and especially given, you know, how young they were, that's a very, very long-term relationship. And she was not in a good place with it. As a result of the Olive Garden incident, Reagan was demoted from her position as lieutenant at the Liberty County Fire Department on June 24th. She was also placed on administrative leave,

As embarrassed as Chandler must have been with strangers at a restaurant who witnessed Reagan yelling at him as his date sat there, Reagan must have felt not only embarrassment but shame and a huge blow to her pride. She was extremely concerned with losing her job due to the arrest, a job that by all counts she loved. Her being demoted at the Liberty County Fire Station is the last time Reagan was seen by anyone who knew her, other than Chandler, as we'll see. It seems like this was the final straw in a pretty big pile that had been weighing on. on Reagan for a while. And I don't want to over emphasize it, but I do think it's important, you know, to talk about Reagan's state of mind. She's upset about the ending of the relationship,

the fact that Chandler's moving on. She's very upset by the loss of her job. And I think more for you and I have talked about it before, but to a lot of people, their job is a big part of their identity. And she had a pretty good job, you know, lieutenant of a county fire department. I'm sure she worked hard to get that. And that would have been a very big blow to lose it. It seems like it would have been a really big one-two punch to lose not only her

boyfriend, but then the job that she loves that title, you know, that seems to really put her in a bad place. The deputy chief of the Liberty County Fire Department. requested a welfare check at Reagan's house in Hinesville on June 25th, the day after she was demoted. By this time, the outcome of the story had already been set in motion. Reagan wasn't home, but her door wasn't locked. So investigators were able to quickly get inside and find a note she had left behind. The contents have not been released to the public.

So we don't know exactly what it is that she wrote. but it was clear that she may be in danger of hurting herself or possibly others. That same morning at about 10 a.m., Chandler called his mom Jane. To let her know what had been going on, he said that Reagan was repeatedly texting and calling him. Jane told the New York Post, he was telling me she was blowing up his phone. And he said that she had threatened that she was going to take her own life. It's not the first time that she's done it. Sadly, this conversation with Chandler about Reagan would be the last time she ever heard her son's voice.

So this conversation that Chandler relayed to his mom about these claims from Reagan that she might take her own life. I think it's just further proof of how badly this all affected her because she was to the point where she was talking about harming herself. And Jane told the New York Post, it wasn't the first time that she had done it. Now, I don't know exactly, you know, what that means. Had there been one other time, was this something that she had done, you know, a number of times? But I think as a parent, you know, when you get a call from your child, even a, you know, a grown child, and they're having this kind of big time problem. That's a tough situation for a parent because, you know, you really want to solve everything. Unfortunately, many times, you know, You just can't do that. I mean, you can listen, you can be empathetic, you can give advice, but you can't fix every problem that your children are going through all the time. And, you know, I will say two more if a lot of times these types of conversations, while they

may sound problematic, most people have no idea that something, you know, very horrific. is about to occur or you know this is the last time that you're ever going to talk to your child and i think just because reagan had threatened self-harm in the past and not actually done anything before it doesn't mean that you can let your guard down and think that she won't do something this time so you know chandler even though he had broken up with her i'm sure he was still worried about her and cared for her safety after chanler got off the phone with his mom. His plan was to go to the gym and work out, something he often did. He was a member at the Crunch Fitness in Savannah, Georgia, near the Oglethorpe Mall. He did his workout and left the gym at about

1140 a.m. was caught on surveillance cameras leaving. That same surveillance footage also captured a black Ford Focus circling the parking lot earlier while Chandler was inside. It turned out to be Reagan's car, and she was apparently just driving it around the parking lot repeatedly. While the footage captured Reagan driving around the lot and Chandler walking out of the gym. It apparently didn't capture everything that happened once Chandler walked out the door. Days later, his vehicle would remain in the parking lot. Of the footage in Chandler's movements, his mom Jane told WJCL, he doesn't look rushed as he walks through the parking lot. After that, we don't see him again. That surveillance footage is the last time Chandler's whereabouts were known. The only additional clue was that Reagan's

car was seen pooling out of the lot. In the afternoon on June 25th, Reagan was at a Circle K in Prosperity, South Carolina, pumping gas into her forward focus. Though this was also captured by security cameras at the gas station, Chandler can't be seen. His phone was pinging in the area at this time, so he had to have been in the car while she was stopped for gas, or at least his phone was. But the car's windows are tinted. and the image quality isn't the greatest.

So it's impossible to know whether he was sitting in the passenger seat or if he had been somehow incapacitated or if he was in the car at all. One investigator did mention that it seemed like Reagan had called Chandler from inside the Circle K, like she was asking him if he wanted anything, causing their phones to ping there. This would imply that Chandler was able to answer his phone at this point in time. After leaving the Circle K and prosperity, Reagan continued driving northwest toward Tennessee and away from their hometown in Georgia. Somehow, she lost her debit card at that gas station, according to Hinesville Police Chief

Tracy Howard. By 7.30 that evening, both of their phones had stopped pinging, and they vanished. The Kubander family noted Chandler's absence at his sister's birthday party that same day. This was unusual. Chandler wouldn't miss her birthday party. Jane told the independent UK of her son, sometimes he's a little late, but he's never not there. It wasn't until the next day that most people realize that Reagan and Chandler were actually missing.

Chandler didn't show up for work the next day. As a firefighter, you really don't get to just not show up. You're counted on to be an essential member of the team that's on duty. So if you can't make it, you have to call in so they can account for your absence. Chandler didn't call in, and this wasn't like him. The authorities learned that Reagan and Chandler were last known to be in Cosby, Tennessee, due to a tip that they had been seen there at Donna Joe's Market. This was almost 400 miles away from the Crunch Fitness location in Savannah, Georgia.

It was believed they were heading to the Gatlinburg or Pigeon Forge area. And I could see why, you know, authorities would believe that they were most likely headed to Gatlinburg or Pigeon Forge. I mean, you know, you think about Tennessee. there's a lot of stuff to do in Tennessee, but Gatlinburg slash Pigeon Forge, that area is a very big tourist attraction. There's a lot of stuff to do there. I've been there many times. My daughter every year used to have like an annual dance competition there. So we would stay for about a week. It's fun place. Yeah, I've been there as well. It is a very scenic and beautiful area.

area too. So if you, if you're looking for peace, quiet, nice views, you want to go up in the mountains. It's a really nice place to maybe go clear your head. And some people may have thought maybe they're going there to talk and just spend some alone time and see if they can hash things out and get to a better place. Yeah, it's an interesting area because most of the time, it's a very, very crowded downtown, right? The Gallenberg Pigeon Forge area. But very quickly, you can get up in the mountains. You can rent a chalet or something like that and be very secluded.

In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved. until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020, blood and water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. The Kubander spent a lot of time and put in a lot of effort,

trying to get their son's story out to the public, and they're pleased for help. They made it clear that they wanted both Chandler and Reagan to come home safely. whatever Reagan had written in that note, she left behind, must have been very clear and very serious. Chandler's father, Justin, told WJCL, we want them both homesafe. But you know he's our son.

We hope both of them are fine. Both of them come home, then we'll go from there. Once we get them both back here. To Chandler's family, none of the Olive Garden stuff matter. The damage to Chandler's car wasn't important. Anything Reagan had said or did to get Chandler in her car that morning didn't matter right now. The only thing that did matter to them was that they come home safe. Sadly, that wouldn't happen.

Their story came to a very sad ending on Sunday, June 30th, 2024. It was, of course, the ending no one wanted to see happen. The bodies of Chandler Kubander and Reagan Anderson were found inside her Ford Focus on Hollow Road in Cosby, Tennessee. This was only about a half mile from their last reported location of Donna Joes. There's also a subway, a bank, and a marathon gas station in that area. A passerby noticed the car parked where it was and called it in. The loss of two young firefighters was devastating for the Liberty County Fire Department. They released a statement that read,

these two extremely dedicated employees put their hearts and souls into protecting and serving the citizens of Liberty County. And more if you mentioned it, this was a very sad end. you know, they had been missing just a little bit less than a week or so. I'm sure their families were extremely worried. We had more information from Chandler's family, but even they were worried about both him and Reagan. They wanted them both home safely. This was the worst possible outcome.

Yeah, I think a lot of people were really invested in finding them and they had seen the alerts and keeping their eyes open. So for this to be the outcome that they, you know, a lot of people were upset by this, this news. I think this just piqued a lot of people's interest trying to find out more about this case. Well, I think it's only natural, right? That members of the community wanted to know what happened to Reagan and Chandler. They were naturally concerned and curious. The news and details of their disappearance made some people seem suspicious rather than concerned.

News of their bodies being found was mostly vague and had some people asking questions instead of expressing condolences. The actual details and facts of their deaths were mixed with speculation and rumor. Some accounts online stated Chandler and Reagan were found alongside her forward focus and not in it, which added to the confusion. But authorities finally confirmed that Reagan and Chandler were found inside her car. We still don't know their causes of death, but knowing that she had access to firearms, which we'll talk about later, it's not out of the question to wonder whether she used a gun

to threaten Chandler so that he would get in her car and whether she killed Chandler before taking her own life. Just like someone taking their own life is not rare, murder suicides are not terribly uncommon. We tend to hear more frequently about males being the perpetrators. The same could be true in this case. case, but most people don't believe that's what happened. The fact both victims were firefighters in the same fire company added to the strangeness of the case. According to America and Roulette, murder suicide in the United States, which is published by the Violence Policy Center,

they almost always are committed by a man armed with a firearm. Any help that could have come from the public in finding Reagan and Chandler was complicated by the confusion that the public was supposed to be on the lookout for two adult firefighters for unknown reasons. Not everyone was worried that the couple were in danger. Some people thought maybe they left to make peace with each other or to try and salvage their relationship and just wanted to get away. While their relationship had been over for quite a while, it seems like it wasn't really final,

and to some, it didn't seem truly beyond repair. There were added stressors with the criminal charges and employment consequences Reagan faced as a result of her actions leading up to their deaths. And I actually think this is very common, more if you have a situation that is currently unfolding, which we did have here, and the public is given some information, right? They're to be on the lookout for this couple, but they're probably not given all the information. The public rarely is. They don't know why perhaps to be on the

lookout or the circumstances of exactly what's going on or how dangerous the situation might be. So I think a lot of times there is quite a bit of confusion on the part of the public, especially after learning that these two individuals were found, they still don't have all the details. And so that leads to speculation. that leads to rumors. Did one person kill the other and then take their own life? What exactly happened from the crunch fitness to Cosby, Tennessee?

And getting back to the part where the public was asked to be on the lookout for them, it's not really clear that they ever indicated why they were supposed to be on the lookout for them, you know, that they were in danger, you know, for, you know, people may have thought that perhaps they were wanted for a crime or something, There was just sort of vague in the statement that they were being sought, as opposed to, you know, you get like an amber alert where it clearly indicates a child is abducted by a person in a certain car. You sort of go on high alert. You're looking out. You know what to look for and why you're looking for.

In this case, is a little bit different. Well, I also think a lot of people pay very close attention to Amber Alert. Number one, you're dealing with a vulnerable child as opposed to, you know, some type of an alert to be on the lookout for two adults. I don't know that everyone would pay as much attention to that as they would an Amber Alert. The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and the Cod County Sheriff's Office are still actively investigating this case. autopsy results for both Chandler and Reagan are still pending. It's unknown exactly what happened to Chandler or Reagan at this point. The families understandably want privacy, but at the same time, the public wants to know more.

And one thing Chandler's mom, Jane, said, will likely only add to more questions or theories. According to a July 7, 2024 article on WTOC.com, Jane is quoted as saying, yes, he was brought home smaller. And no, we do not have all the answers right now. Many of the answers we do have, we are not ready to share. And no doubt more, if this is a strange statement, and understandably, people have been trying to decipher it. Yes, he was brought home smaller. Some people have theorized that maybe his body was not whole when it was brought home. But we really have no idea, but there's just no way you can't say that's a very strange statement. Yeah, and I think it only makes people theorize that much more and it makes their minds raise to,

geez, what might have happened to this poor guy? Yeah, because if, you know, we kind of go with the theory that someone is shot and then the other person shoots themselves. Okay, that's tragic. But neither of the bodies that are being brought home are going to be smaller than what they were before. I mean, you can go to some really dark places to try to figure out what that statement means. Decapitation, dismemberment. Again, we don't know that that's what happened, but your mind goes to those places pretty quickly. Jane said publicly that she basically believed Reagan abducted

Chandler and kept him hostage. Despite that, she still had kind words for Reagan telling court TV and posting online of Reagan, she's a great firefighter. It wasn't that Reagan was a terrible person or had set out to harm Chandler. According to court TV, Jane explained, again, speaking about Reagan, she is lost, unstable, and losing what she has known for seven years. They weren't good for each other. She's making bad decisions because of this. The breakup with Chandler was just another loss in Reagan's life. In January of this year, her father Byron passed away. According to his obituable, he passed after a brief illness. Losing a loved one is never easy, and when it's unexpected, it can cause a real loss of a sense of

reality, along with the grief and despair, and even the anger. People claiming to know Reagan and Chandler online have hinted that Reagan chose not to speak to the rest of her family. There also seemed to be some turmoil even before her father passed. In December 2020, there was a large suite of drug, related arrests as part of Operation Crackdown, one and two, an Operation Stranded Bandit. More than 60 people, including a Byron Anderson of Hinesville, were indicted.

Anderson was charged with conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and to distribute methamphetamine, heroin, and cocaine, and possession with intent to distribute methamphetamine. according to coastal courier.com, this was a huge undertaking that actually stemmed from recent drug trafficking prosecutions in Operation Vanilla Gorilla, which sent 43 felons to federal prison and Operation Who's Laughing Now with 19 felons sentenced to prison? So first of all, you know, who's coming up with the names of these operations? That was my first thought.

Vanilla Gorilla? And these sound like some cartoons from the, the 1980s or something. And then you have this Byron Anderson, the same name of Reagan's dad. Now, we don't know with 100% certainty that this is the same Byron Anderson, but there are people online who are making that claim. So if it is true, in a pretty short amount of time, Reagan had lost. lost the love of her life, Chandler, and then her dad is arrested not long before he died. If that all is the case, couple that with, you know, the loss of her job.

What did all of this do to Reagan? Yeah, that's understandably a lot for anyone to endure, you know, two important people in your life, your parent and, you know, the love of your life you were dating for seven years. she must have felt extremely lonely and like important pieces of her life were missing. And then as you mentioned, she gets into this trouble with the Olive Garden incident. She gets the demotion. And it really seems like things are just spinning out of control. And again, we still don't have all the details,

but we're definitely not excusing anything that she may have done. I think what we're trying to do is paint a picture of what was going on in her life. and it does seem like there was a lot of turmoil. Some key questions remain and have yet to be answered. They may never be answered. One question a lot of people ask, why would Chandler get in Reagan's car if it was dangerous, especially after the Olive Garden incident?

For Chandler's mom, Jane, the answer was simple. She told Court TV, I do believe he's with her to keep them both in this world right now. And then she told People magazine, they are not a couple, but he cares deeply for her. If Reagan had indeed cut off her family, her father had just died, and now Chandler was breaking up with her, she was losing almost everything, add the workplace demotion and illegal ramifications for arrest. And it's easy to see how Reagan may have felt her situation in life were out of control. But I want to go back to what Jane told, you know, a couple of outlets about why she thought her son would have gotten into the car with Reagan.

And I completely understand what she's saying. Yes, this incident at the Olive Garden, I'm sure angered him. I'm sure he was embarrassed, frustrated. But let's not forget, this was a couple who had been together for seven years. And just because you break up doesn't mean that you don't still care about someone, especially someone with whom you've spent that much time. if she was giving off indications that she had any intention of harming herself, I could see him wanting to try to help her through that,

not being scared to get in the car. He knows this person. He knows her well. He's dated her for seven years. And he may not have even thought about his safety. He may have been worried about her safety, especially if she's threatening self-harm. He's probably just thinking,

how can I help her, let me get in the car and talk to her and see if I can help her in anyway. And that's, again, all speculation because we really don't know how things went down. But I think you see this in many cases. You know, people, they see signs of someone who's in distress or, you know, they're acting differently. They're obviously going through something. But how many people really, truly think that, you know, a person, you know, a person, you know, a person that they've known for so many years, they've shared intimacy with, is going to hurt them. I don't think that's something that comes to people very easily. This thought that this person I know so well would ever actually harm me.

Unfortunately, we know it does happen. Now, to some people, the entire narrative that Chandler was trying to help Reagan seem suspicious, some social media groups thought the story was a scam of some sort due to a typo in one of the posts about Chandler being missing. Some picked apart Jane's words, wondering how Chandler could have been underdress, as she said, if he had wanted to help Reagan. I think what people were getting at is how much trouble could Chandler be in if he was truly with Reagan trying to help her? And this is one of the things that you see in any case, especially a case that's unfolding still. The way that this one is, you know, people are very active online and they're going to

pick apart people's words, people's lives. There's a lot of speculation in this case. But, you know, this notion of, well, how much danger could he have been in if he was trying to help her? I don't understand that. I think he could have been in quite a bit of danger. and not have known it. To me, it all goes to, you know, her state of mind and her designs, what she was

thinking of doing. And that's if she was the aggressor in this situation, as many people believe. We still don't even know that. And even if he was helping her because she had ideas about self-harm, even if she didn't have any plans unharming Chandler, her state. of mind could suddenly change to where she decides that she feels she needs to bring Chandler along with her and now all of a sudden it goes from a situation where he's there to help her to where he's in danger as well. Well, and let's not forget, days went by, right? They traveled

a good distance over that period of time. Things could have changed in someone's mind quite a bit. We talked about how the authorities put out a bolo for the missing couple and how Chandler's family took to social media in an effort to locate them. But unless members of the public witnessed an argument or a physical altercation or something along those lines, how easily would Reagan and Chandler have been spotted? If nothing seemed alarming to people, how likely would it be that they would have called police? some people have posed the question how likely could it have been that a tip from the public would have saved the couple but at the same time it was a tip that led police to find out that they had been to Donna Jo's market so I think that possibility exists right that some sort of tip from the public could have helped save them I just don't know what the likelihood of that was and I go back

more to the Amber Alert. You know, we're very accustomed to seeing the signs with an Amber Alert on them. You know, our phones blow up with information when an Amber Alert goes out. You know what that means. A child is possibly, quite possibly in real trouble, danger. But being asked to be on the lookout for two adults, I just don't know. how many people are going to view that the same way. Unless you see, you know, a couple arguing,

you see somebody with a gun, well, obviously that's going to raise it to a different level. But if they're just driving along and you glance over, are you going to give it a second thought? I do find a little odd that it took the police so long to find them in their car where they were because as we mentioned, it wasn't out in the woods at some mountain or tree. We talked about that area, how there are areas out that way like that that, that are secluded. But this seemed to be near more of a business tape area where there was a couple stores nearby. So it's odd that they weren't spotted sooner and someone didn't call in, you know,

finding them quicker than they did. Yeah. And the other question I have is, how long did it take to get the phone data? because we know at a certain point they had it. We went through it, the pings and all that. There's some thought, I think, by people that, you know, they could have been tracking them pretty quickly with that type of data, but we just don't know how long it took to get.

And then you have apps like find my friend and some of the other apps that allow you to see where a loved one is at and know within to an exact location. So we don't know. they had any of those apps or whether they were able to be tracked, but it seems like it could have led to them sooner than it did if they had some of those things. And part of that is that the case is still, you know, unfolding. There will be more information that comes out. We're just doing this case so quickly. It's still in the news. So there's no way to have, you know, all of the detail. At the end of the day, people curious about this case as well,

as online sluice have spent countless hours trying to dissect every movement and every hour of timeline in this case. Often, they go back to the surveillance footage from that Circle K. In that video, there's nothing visibly wrong with Reagan or her vehicle. Again, we don't know where Chandler was when Reagan was inside the store. No matter how much you may look at her car, the tint is just too dark to see inside. But Chandler did seem to respond to Reagan's text, which may indicate he was alive and well when her car was at the stroke of okay if that's the case when and how did things turn deadly sadly as jane hinted to in one of her statements we mentioned regan did seem to have a history of suicidal ideation even before her father's death in july two thousand twenty three

almost a year earlier there is a report about her mental health according to a reddit thread chandler called police to report that his ex-girlfriend Reagan was going through a hard time and might harm herself. She had told him he had to come over because she couldn't breathe and also sent him a photo of a gun. She had recently purchased. Officer Jones, Liberty Fire Department Chief Brian Darby and Captain James Ashdown responded to Reagan's apartment in Hinesville. Chief Darby took possession of her handgun. It's currently unknown whether she ever was. got it back. It had been almost a year. So it seems like there was plenty of time for that issue to have been worked out and her firearm to have been returned to her. So I think this is where

you can get into a lot of debates as far as firearm safety should someone that's threatened self-harm be given their gun back. And again, we don't know whether that happened or not. We'll have to wait to see if that detail emerges. But, you know, if she, you know, if she, had been suicidal or threatens to harm herself, then it seems you wouldn't want to give her weapon back. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens with that. Well, and the timing of it and any details of what happened in between that time of how things were resolved. You know, was there counseling? You know, was there anything like that?

Those details would be important, too. We were left to wonder, was this unfortunate situation preventable? Many believe that Chandler likely got into Reagan's car because she pointed her gun at him. But others think he was just trying to calm her down. Maybe she had pointed it at herself and he jumped in. We just don't know. We don't even know if a gun is involved. What we do know is that many people don't take repeated threats or discussions of suicidal ideation or self-harm seriously.

But this situation goes back to at least July, 2003. There may have been more occasions where someone was concerned for Reagan that haven't been made public yet. The sad conclusion to this case is that two young firefighters are gone. This is just tragic. There's no other real way to say it. Most headlines about firefighters dying are reporting how they died battling huge blazes to try and protect lives and property, to lose two firefighters, to what seems likely to be a domestic. violence incident is truly a shame. They will both be missed by not only their families,

but the community they serve together and their fellow firefighters. Their colleagues at the fire department have to deal with the loss of two co-workers at the same time. It's a lot for everyone involved to deal with. A GoFundMe set up for Chandler's family has raised almost $10,000. The description is simply Chandler Kubander was sadly and unexpectedly taken from his family and the life he loved. Police support the family as they need time to grieve, figure out a new normal, and heal. Along with his parents, Chandler also as a brother and sister, were now forced to learn to navigate the world without him in their lives. Chandler's sister wrote on her Facebook page, trying to find the words to say goodbye, but I can't.

It's tearing me apart to even think about not having you here. Never in my life did I think I would have to be doing life without you. And there was a part of that description that hit home to me. And it was figure out a new normal. I think that's something that, you know, in these tragic situations, people really have to undertake. You know, what is our new normal without this loved one in our life? You know, every holiday is going to be different. Everything in your life is going to be different.

there is going to be a new normal. And that just really struck me. And I would guess that Chandler's family knew that as a firefighter, his life could constantly be at risk that he might walk into a fire one day and not come home. And they probably knew that risk. And if that ever happened, it might be tough, but it might not have been such a shock, but to lose him in something that seems like,

domestic violence type of situation, they probably were never expecting that. As we have mentioned in this episode, details about exactly what happened to Reagan and Chandler are scarce. A lot of key information hasn't been released publicly and may never be. There is no official account as of the time of this recording that their deaths are the result of a murder suicide and even if they are a lot of details about just what unfolded and how are still missing. There has been a lot of speculation in theories online. Some of those are going to end up to be true. Many of them are not.

We'll have to stay tuned for updates and news in the case to see if we can learn anything more about what happened to Chandler and Reagan. We often mention various hotlines and resources on this show and that's not just a spiel. There is help out there if you need it. You know it can be hard to reach out, but it can really make a difference. It can be hard to ask for help for yourself or on behalf of a loved one when you fear their reaction and fear losing any other opportunities to try and help them in the future. But you can only do so much on your own.

At some point, actual professional and real help may be needed. We're going to leave you with two resources. If you or anyone you know is struggling with their mental health, you can call or text the Lifeline anytime at 9-8. to talk with a train counselor 24 hours a day. Many states also have what are called warm lines that you can call when you just need someone to talk to. There is also help available if you or someone you know is dealing with the relationship

issues we discussed tonight. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799 safe or text start to 88788 for help. free help is available 24-7. So more as we wrap up this episode, obviously there is still a lot left to come out. Hopefully the information does come out. As you mentioned,

there are some things that may never be known, may never be released. But I feel like a good deal of it will be. It's just so early on still in the case that a lot of it hasn't been, but it is a case that we wanted to talk about. A tragedy unfolded. We may not know all the details, but there are some things we do know. Chandler got in the car with Reagan. Now, was he made to get in the car or did he get in the car willingly because he was worried about her and he wanted to help her? The big question for me is

what was her mindset when he got in the car with her at Crunch Fitness? Did she have a cemented plan or did her plan form, you know, over the days that they were traveling? And this is assuming that Reagan was the instigator, which we still don't even truly know that. I think that's what most people believe. But, you know, it's just one of the things that we're going to. to have to wait to find out. It's frustrating when you have a case like this that obviously the community

cared about. It made a lot of headlines. It was all over social media. So it was something that interested people caught their attention, but it's frustrating that there's just not a lot of answers. And I think one reason why this did strike a court with so many people because it seems like a situation that could have happened in anyone's town across the country. at any time. This wasn't such a one of a kind type of case that it's perhaps frightening that this could be, you know, someone you know, you, it could be a firefighter in your community. Oh, we don't know the answers to this case yet, all the answers at least. I think the one thing we do know, the loss of these two young people is a blow to their community because they

obviously were a big part of that community and were a big part of that fire department. they're protecting the citizens. So I think the key takeaway is that's one thing we do know for sure. Well, I think you bring up a good point. You know, when we do a case about a boogeyman type serial killer, well, those are scary. There's no doubt about that. But how many people truly believe that they're going to encounter a serial killer in their life? Probably not many.

But who hasn't been in some sort of relationship? relationship. So, you know, when you talk about a story like this, I think everybody has been, maybe not in this exact situation, but in a situation like this, you know, where a relationship ends. Maybe, you know, there's a little bit of friction. One person's not happy. A lot of people can relate to that. So these cases are scary in, you know, a little bit of a different way. but to me they're almost more real life than some of the other types of cases we talk about. Yeah, my heart really goes out to to Reagan and Chandler's families and that community. They're going to be devastated by this for a long time, I'm sure.

Well, the one thing I will say is, you know, it will be interesting to keep an eye on this case, to see what comes out, to see what conclusions, you know, the police come to. because I have a feeling that eventually they will put forth their theory at the very least or maybe their factual account of what really happened. And I know I'll be keeping an eye on it because I truly want to know how this occurred. And maybe we'll get some more answers as to the why. But that's it for our episode on Reagan Anderson and Chanderson and Chandles. or Coobander. If you love the show, but haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out,

give us a five-star rating. You can leave a review. Also, keep telling your friends about the criminology podcast. That word of mouth really helps us out. If you want to find us on social media, we're on X with the handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by going to Facebook.com slash criminology podcast. And you can join our Facebook discussion group, Criminology podcast discussion in the fans. So that's it for another episode of criminology. But Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then for Mike and Morph.

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