Criminology - Russell and Shirley Dermond

Episode Date: August 11, 2024

By 2014, Russell and Shirley Dermond had been married for over 60 years. They had children and grandchildren and were enjoying their retirement years after owning and operating fast food restaurants. In 1994 the couple purchased their dream home on Lake Oconee in Georgia. But their dream home would become the scene of a nightmare. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond. A couple who was friends with the Dermonds went to their house to check on them when they hadn't heard from them in awhile. Russell and Shirley had missed a Kentucky Derby party and weren't picking up or returning phone calls. The couple discovered Russell dead in the garage and he had been decapitated. Shirley was nowhere to be found. What happened to the Dermonds? You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology   An Emash Digital production

Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 320 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Mr. Morford. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing good. Recording this with you today and then I've got a couple projects and tonight is my neighborhood patrol duty in my neighborhood. So it's going to be a long day for me. So you all have like a neighborhood watch type thing?

Yeah, we take turns and, you know, there's, I think there's probably a couple dozen people to do it. And we got just cruise around the area and just make sure, you know, things look safe and no signs of anything that need to be alerted to and help keep the neighborhood going. That's cool. Do you have like a special golf cart or what do you use? My truck.

Oh, okay. So everybody uses their own personal. Yeah, they only use a vehicle and you get to put a cool, put a cool blinking light on top of it and, uh, God and, uh, just, you know, look for anything out of the ordinary. Okay. All right. I dig it. That's my, uh, Thursday night this week. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

We had Brianna Hill, Robert Williams, Laura Alexander, and Ashley Arn't Siciliano. So that's a lot of great new Patreon support. we really appreciate it. We also had a really generous PayPal donation from Kelly Krug. Yeah, that is some great new support. And, uh, you know, thank you for Kelly reaching out to us and, and talking to us and saying she was going to do that.

We can't thank you all enough for that. Uh, for anyone else that would like to help support the show it. It means a lot to us. You can do so by going to patreon.com slash criminology. All right. More if we're wasting no time in jumping into this week's case. And we have a big.

one that's a favorite case for discussion. On online sites like Reddit and web slews, I woke up this morning, like I wake up every morning. It's the first thing I think about. That is the quote in the Macon Telegraph from Puttonham County Sheriff Howard Sills. Speaking about a terrible crime that he investigated, the 2014 murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond in Eaton, Georgia. It's a crime. that struck fear in their community. And when you hear the details surrounding what happened to the Dermans, it's not surprising. People would be scared. Now more than a decade later, despite a lot of clues and advancements in technology, the truth about who murdered the Dermans and why remains elusive.

Russell Derman, a New Jersey native, served in World War II. And following the war, he met and eventually married Shirley Wilcox, a fellow New Jersey native in 1950. Fred and Shirley would go on to have four children, three sons, Mark, Keith, and Bradley, and a daughter, Leslie. They would eventually have nine grandchildren. After the service, while Shirley was a homemaker raising their kids, Russell worked for a clock company, but eventually decided to go into business for himself. The Germans owned and operated several fast food restaurants, including several Hardee's restaurants in the Atlanta area. For a decade, the Dermans built these businesses up, and they became very successful and lucrative.

While things seemed to be gone great for the Derman family, tragedy struck. Mark Dermann was killed during a drug deal in 2000, and we'll definitely talk more about that later. Understandably, his death was hard on the Derman family, but Russell and Shirley pressed on. After busting their butts for a decade, the Germans decided it was time to retire and live out their golden years in peace and comfort. both of the dermons were churchgoers and russell was an avid golfer well surely planned on spending her time reading and doing crossword puzzles and i think a lot of people you know at a certain point in life get in this position they've worked hard for many many years right they've had maybe some children they now have grandchildren but you said it more if they busted their butts work work work it seems like for a lot of us that's a big chunk of of our life. But at a certain point, you get ready to retire. And I think a lot of us, you know, look forward to that day not having to go to work. And I think for the Dermans, they obviously had some money, right? If you own a number of fast food restaurants, you can make a lot

of money. So it sounds like, you know, they're pretty set financially. And things are setting up to have a, you know, good rest of their lives. I think being here in Florida, I see a lot of retirees and they're just, you know, you could tell, talking to them, you know, they've done their work. And now they're just at a point where they just want to relax and not set an alarm clock and do the things that make them happy. And, you know, I could certainly understand it with the Dermans. They got to a point where they just said, you know what?

We've worked hard. It's time to relax and just do what we want to do on our schedule and, you know, can't faulted him for that. In 1994, Russell and Shirley purchased the property of their dreams in the Great Waters Reynolds at Lake O'Connor, a gated community built around a Jack Nicholas designed golf course. The house located on a cul-de-sac at 147 Carolyn Drive was beautiful and large. On an acre of waterfront land surrounded by woods, the two-story home boasted four bedrooms, five five bathrooms and vaulted ceilings. For the Dermans, this house was everything that they wanted.

They had plenty of room for their family and grandkids to visit. It had breathtaking views. It was close to the golf course. And above all, since it was in a gated community with one road in or out, it would be safe. Or at least that's what the Dermans thought. It turned out they were wrong. By Tuesday, May 6th, 2014. 14. It had been days since anyone had heard from 88-year-old Russell or 87-year-old Shirley.

They didn't show up to Kentucky Derby party thrown by friends on the third, and there still had been no calls or visits to explain their absence. They also hadn't made it to church that weekend. A married couple, friends and neighbors of the Dermans, decided it was time to go check on them and make sure everything was okay. Just before 10 a.m. on the 6th, they drove over to the Derman home. A couple knocked on the door, but no one answered. The friends didn't leave, however. Two newspapers were in the driveway, Saturdays and Sundays. This wasn't like the Dermans at all. Shirley loved to do the crossword puzzles daily, so two days' worth of papers on the ground was alarming.

One of the friends decided to try the doorknob and discovered that the front door of the home was unlocked, and they let themselves in. No one answered. As the couple called out for Russell and Shirley, they walked through the home, looking for the Dermans. With both of the Dermans being well, in their 80s. One scenario that may have come to mind was that there was an injury due to a fall or

accident or they had some kind of illness. But how likely was it that both of the Germans were incapacitated in that scenario? Either way, it was clear to their friends that Russell and Shirley likely would need help. As they entered the garage, the couple was greeted by a terrible sight, something that they would never forget, they discovered the body of Russell Dermann in the garage. Russell's body, and it was just his body, with no head, was lying on his back in a pool of blood in the middle of the garage. The couple's Lincoln Town Car was on one side of his body, their Lexus SUV on the other. Terrified, the friends immediately called 911 from the Derman's home phone. According to the Macon telegraph, the call went like this. A female friend

frantically said, yes, I have an emergency. I think I have someone dead. Oh my God, oh my God. The 911 system continued recording. As her husband continued searching the home, you could hear him yell out. There's nothing back here. Moments later, she asked her husband, did you find both of them? He hadn't. Surely was not in the home or anywhere on the property. And Morp, if we're on episode 320, we have done a few of them. And in many of those episodes, we're talking about individuals, finding, sometimes even stumbling upon a dead body. And a lot of times the people are strangers to the victims. They're just out doing something, maybe hiking in the woods or hunting or whatever it is when they find a dead body.

This is a very different situation. These are friends checking on a couple from whom they have not heard from in a while. I can only imagine how shocking this discovery would be or would have been for them, but would be for anyone. I think maybe the worst case scenario they were expecting was that they were sick or, you know, something had happened like a. medical emergency, you know, they're older, so maybe they're thinking they're going to find them and they're incapacitated somehow. But to find a headless body, you just had to be super shocking.

And then Shirley's missing, you know, who knows what went through their mind when they stumbled on that scene. Police responded to the Derman home, probably unaware that they were responding to one of the most shocking and horrible crimes that they ever investigated. Other than Shirley herself, it didn't appear that anything of value was missing from the home. Police found that after Russell had been killed, he had been decapitated, and his head wasn't left behind at the home with his body. Gunshot residue on the collar of Russell's shirt suggests that he was shot in the head. The leading theory is that he was decapitated so that the authorities couldn't collect the

projectile and trace it back to the killer's weapon. Russell had also suffered an injury to his finger in hand, some of Shirley's hair was stuck to the blood on his hand. Bradley Derman later told 11alive.com. It would appear that there was a struggle and dad was trying to be protective of mom. Everything else in the home looked exactly the way it should. If you weren't in the garage, you wouldn't even know the home was a crime scene. There were no signs of forced entry and no signs of a struggle.

Towels were wedged in the crack of the garage door. blocking blood from flowing under the door and down the driveway, likely to divert unwanted attention to the crime scene. According to the union recorder, police did note that a typical table lamp, three feet tall and 15 inches in diameter, had been moved from inside the home to the garage. It was left very close to Russell's body on the trunk of the Lincoln. With the shade removed,

investigators believed it was used to give the suspect more light as they decapitated Russell. There was a circular empty space in the pool of blood in the garage. It's unknown what was removed from the scene. Investigators aren't sure that the Durham home is the actual murder scene. There was blood on the bottom of Russell's feet, but no mention of bloody footprints or blood spatter in the home. A trail of blood indicated that Russell had been dragged a few feet after being decapitated. Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sills told the union recorder, it does not appear from a physical evidence standpoint that they were murdered there at all.

The police were stumped as to what happened and why, and it's hard to blame them. The Germans were well-liked and respectable people living a quiet life in a gated community, although police kept some of the gruesome details to themselves. When word got out about what happened, people in the area, especially that gated community were in fear. We mentioned it was a secure, gated community. community with one road in and out. Residents wondered if they too were in danger.

So, you know, let's just talk a little bit about this gated community. One road in and out with a gate. That does sound pretty secure. And my assumption is there probably was a lot of retirees living there. So what would happen after word of this gruesome murder and, And Shirley's disappearance started making its way around the neighborhood. There is going to be a lot of fear. You know,

did a stranger somehow get inside the gated community and do this? Or maybe even more frightening was this one of our own members, you know, a member of our community who committed this terrible act? And where is Shirley? Yeah, we're going to get into a little bit more detail about how secure this community is, but no doubt that the residents there certainly thought that one of the benefits of having this security system of an entrance is going to help them protect them from something bad

happening. And in this case, it didn't. Well, I'm sure it was a draw for people, you know, looking at homes in that neighborhood. but, you know, let's face it, while I'm sure it was more secure than an ungated community, if somebody wants to get in, we've seen it time and time again, they will find a way. Russell's funeral was postponed. The family decided that there would be no services for him until the whereabouts of his beloved wife of 62 years was known. By the 14th, the FBI was offering a $20,000 reward for any information leading to the whereabouts of Shirley Dermann.

One of their sons admitted that it would actually be better for her to be at peace, deceased, than to have been living through the terror of what she had seen and what she feared would happen to her next. Authorities didn't immediately release the information that Russell's head was missing. some people were suspicious of Shirley since she too was missing. They thought maybe she just snapped, had a bad medication reaction, or was suffering from some form of dementia, and took off after she killed Russell. Others wondered if she may have run from the attacker and gotten lost or injured in the thick wood surrounding the home. Once the public found out that Russell had been decapitated, most people found it impossible to imagine that Shirley would have been strong enough to do such a thing.

Whoever cut off Russell's head either knew what they were doing, doing or was very strong. According to the autopsy report, this was done in one clean cut. They either came prepared or found a knife sharp enough to do this. Sheriff Sills told Atlanta magazine, it was not the skill of a surgeon. Whoever did it took a long time doing it. So we have a couple of, you know, different quotes here. And they actually, I thought morph seemed to be a little bit at odds with each other.

You have the autopsy report saying this was done in one clean cut. Well, first of all, that thought alone is pretty gruesome, but you also have to figure out, well, how does someone accomplish that? But then you have the sheriff saying it wasn't the skill of a surgeon and that the person had taken their time doing it. Yeah, taking their time doing it at one clean cut. seem to be at odds with each other. And it, you know, on one hand, you could almost imagine someone with a sword or something

like that with one clean swipe beheading him. And that would be one clean cut. But then again, that wouldn't take time. It seems like that would be one quick swing. So what's the alternative? Well, I don't know that you and I have spent a lot of time talking about people being decapitated. It's a pretty gruesome thought, you know, honestly, but there are a number of ways that it could be done.

None of them, though, by my way of thinking, are going to be for the feign of heart. And this notion that 87-year-old Shirley would, you know, after 60 plus years of marriage, kill her husband. Okay, it's not unheard of. I'm sure it has happened. But then that, you know, this 87-year-old woman took the additional step of decapitating him. That is just really tough to believe. And it's bad enough to murder someone, but I think it takes an especially heinous or disturbed individual to then take the time to cut somebody's head off.

It's just so gruesome. And I just hope surely didn't have to witness that. More than a week after Russell's body was discovered, Shirley's body serviced in the water of Lake O'Conney. On May 16th, fishermen near the Long Shoals boat ramp almost six miles away from the Dermond Hall, noticed her floating and called authorities. There was a rope, sometimes specified as pericord, tied around her legs, that had also been tied to two red cinder blocks, each weighing 30 pounds in an attempt to keep her body below the surface. Her cause of death was determined to be blunt force trauma from multiple blows to the head,

possibly with something like a hammer. Surely had been killed before being dumped in the water. According to Sheriff Sills, her body did not float downstream from the dock area near her home. She was purposefully dumped in this area, which is near, of the deepest parts of Lake O'Connor. The boat ramp is about a 20-minute drive from the Derman home, but most interviews have hinted that investigators believe surely was taken by boat. The cinder blocks used a way down her body, could have been used as anchors for a small

boat. The possibility of the killer or killers getting to the scene by boat is a very interesting and plausible one. Remember, we mentioned that this was a gate. community with one road in and one road out. And the gate included a guard booth and surveillance camera. If someone came across the lake on a boat, they could circumvent the need to, you know,

come through the gate, be caught on surveillance camera, be seen by a guard, all of that. The exact time that the Dermans were killed isn't known. But a window of time has been narrowed down. It's confirmed that Russell Dorman had been seen out in public on May 1st, two days before the Kentucky Derby party that the couple missed.

He was shopping at a local public's grocery store. Surveillance cameras there captured him shopping alone, though he did speak to another shopper near what appears to be the deli section. It's unclear who it was and what they talked about, but it was brief. Russell got to the store at around 2.26 p.m., picked up one of Shirley's prescriptions relating to a cataract surgery she had scheduled, talked to the other customer for a moment, and then bought some cucumbers and a loaf of bread.

Before dinner, they spoke to their son, Bradley, on the phone. They kept in touch off and would catch each other up on the last few days. Hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app, when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too?

All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast experts set up on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. Wayfair, every style, every home. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door, and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until New Texas.

Technology allowed investigators to do but had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and Water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. The next morning on May 2nd, at least one witness recalls seeing Russell out for his daily morning walk

on the nearby golf course. Later that day, at around 4.30 p.m., their mail was delivered. police found that Shirley, who loved to complete the crossword puzzles in the newspaper, had started the puzzle in the daily newspaper that was delivered on the second. From what investigators can tell, all was well when they went to bed on the night of the second, but they never showed up for the Kentucky Derby Party on the 3rd. The Germans did have an alarm system.

Their children believe it was their habit to lock their doors and keep the alarm on at night. When Russell's body was found, he was wearing a robe, slippers, striped shorts, and a t-shirt, suggesting that he had not gotten dressed for the next day yet. This was part of his routine. He would lounge in his pajamas, drinking coffee, reading the paper, and going about his morning. The clothes he was wearing in the surveillance footage from Publix, a green-collared shirt, khaki shorts, and black shoes were found in the bed. room. His wallet and sunglasses were still in the house too. Shirley, who was known to wake up

earlier than Russell, had gotten dressed, and was found wearing the clothes she was likely planning to wear to the party on Saturday the 3rd. They hadn't gone to church on Sunday. And the newspapers for both Saturday and Sunday had been left right where they were thrown. All of this seems to place the murder sometime on Saturday morning or early afternoon. Shirley and Russell's bed was still unmade, and no one had brought in Saturday's mail. The neighbor's Kentucky Derby party they missed was scheduled for 4 p.m. Police located one neighbor who recalled seeing a man in the Dermon's yard on the third, but the neighbor was so far away, he couldn't say for sure whether or not the man was Russell.

If it was Russell he saw, then the Germans were alive on the third. And if it wasn't Russell that the witness saw, then it may be connected to their attack on the third. either way, the third seems like the day that whatever happened happened. And to me, you know, this narrowing down, the timeline is very interesting. Obviously, they capture Russell on surveillance video at Publix. So that's a definite point in time where they know he was alive. And then you have, you know, the papers. And this fact that Shirley was an avid.

daily crossword puzzle devotee. Well, it becomes pretty obvious to most people that, you know, these papers not being brought in help put a stamp on when the murders most likely occur. Yeah, I think ideally the police really want to make as tight a timeline as they can. So that witnessing a man in the Derman's yard could be important. And unfortunately, he was just too far away to see. But, you know, it makes me think of cases we've covered in the past, you know, the Golden State Killer, for example, when strange men would be seen in yards of

victims' home or neighbor's yards and just sort of prowling. And is this a prowler? It was just, was this just rustle out in his own yard? And it's not suspicious at all. We just don't know. Or did this neighbor actually see, you know, the mayor? murderer or one of the murderers, but really be unable to provide any specific details. And one thing we haven't mentioned is in a community like this, there may be people like

landscapers or gardeners or people like that that are coming and going to. So that could, you know, cloudy the waters a little bit as to extra people being in the area that may or may not belong there. police were left to try and find a motive and hopefully it would lead them to a suspect but motives were scarce the retired couple had no known enemies we mentioned it right they were well liked they were respected some investigators began to theorize that maybe the germans were random victims and that their killer or killers picked their house at random and i often think more if in any case like this you know motive is so important. I mean, doesn't motive, in many instances, kind of lead the police down a path, right? Who would want to do this? Who would have a reason to do this if you don't have anything like that? I think it makes for tough sledding as far as trying to determine who committed these heinous murders. And we talked about how the house itself was in good condition, no signs of

a struggle or a break-in forced entry, anything like that. So it opens up the possibility that maybe they knew this person entrusted them enough to let them into their home. And I think that's just one of the things, right, pointing away from this being a random crime. No sign of forced entry. No sign of a break-in. So that led police to suspect that maybe the Germans knew or at least recognized their

killer or killers and let their guard down. Additionally, nothing was taken from the home as far as jewelry or valuables, which would seem to rule out a random home attracting the attention of burglars. The one thing that stumped investigators was why Shirley was taken in the first place and killed very soon after. Why not kill her on the spot in the garage? Both bodies could have been dumped in the lake. Why decapitate Russell?

after shooting him and only take his head. And then why kill Shirley with blunt force and then dump her into the lake? And I think the police were really trying to get inside of the head of the person that committed this crime, the person or persons, to figure out why they did what they did, how they did it, what they were thinking. And they thought maybe that's going to give them an edge on catching them. But how do you get in someone's mind that does this kind of thing? and doesn't seem like the police were able to do that.

Well, to be fair, they're working with very little information. And some of the information that they do have is fairly odd. You know, we talked about it early on. The Germans had some money, right? They ran a few successful businesses. You have to imagine that they had some valuables inside the home. Well, when nothing seems to have been taken of value, pretty tough to believe that this was a burglary, gone wrong, and in the commission of that burglary, they ended up killing

these two individuals. And then you have this kind of overarching question. Why was Russell decapitated and, you know, his body left at the scene? while Shirley's body was not decapitated, she was not shot, and then she was dumped in the lake. Police thought that if they could figure out how the killer or killers arrived, it might be a clue that might help track them down. So they once again turn their attention back to trying to figure out how the killer or killers arrived at the home. This neighborhood, as we mentioned, was a gated community with a guard shack and surveillance cameras. Unfortunately, the cameras weren't working due to a recent electrical.

storm in the area. While someone could get through the security checkpoint and not be picked up by the broken cameras, how likely is it that they would know that the cameras weren't working? They hadn't been working since April 28th, just days before the murders. If they knew the cameras were out of order, was this someone with knowledge about the community? Or did they just get lucky and drive through the gate, not even thinking about the cameras? That's if they came through the gate at all, and didn't come by boat. Sheriff Sills believes the suspect or suspects. got to the home in a vehicle, which there would be no record of due to the camera's not working. However, Sills told the Macon Telegraph that in his opinion, there is no question whatsoever

that Mrs. Derman's body was disposed of by boat. So he admits that while he thinks a car was involved, they could have come by boat. There was a dock on the lake behind the home that surely could have been carried to, or forced to walk to. However, Sills also admits in an Atlanta magazine article that he doesn't know for sure. Could it have come from the water? Yes. Could it have come from the street?

Yes. Could it have come from outer space? Yes. It's totally unknown. Okay. I get it. Maybe there's some hyperbole there. The first two are viable options.

And I guess, depending on what you believe. believe the third is as well, but I think he's emphasizing the fact that they just don't know. Yeah, I think for listeners, if they want to get a sense of this layout a little bit more, you can go online and, you know, search for this crime and in photos of the area, and you'll get a nice idea of how the property lays out and how it would be hard to get in and out and how the water or that gate are really the only way in or out. But I do want to go back to these cameras for a minute. You know, security cameras are great.

If they are working, you know, if they don't work, well, they're not as great. I get it. There was a recent electrical storm that knocked them out. And maybe they just, you know, had not been fixed yet, but it was on the docket. but that question that, you know, you asked more of it. I do think is an important one. How likely is it that, you know, whoever did this knew that the cameras were not working,

assuming that they came in by vehicle through the gate. And does the answer to that question help narrow down the suspect list? And I don't know if it does or not, because it could have still been a fairly random selection, but the perpetrators just knew that they would be able to get into this community. Or it could have been a very targeted selection, and the perpetrators knew they would be able to get into the community. And we don't have the information tried to find it,

but it's not out there if, you know, the association, the development, sent out notices saying, hey, our cameras aren't working, I kind of doubt that would be the case. They probably were just going to get them fixed. And, you know, I don't imagine they'd send this notice out to everyone. So I'm wondering how many people really knew about the camera's not working. That could be a select few. And if the killer was one of the few people that knew they weren't working, then that seems to be a major clue. But then again, we just don't know. Maybe they came in

not caring about the cameras or maybe they didn't even know about the cameras in the first place or you know maybe they did know about the cameras and that puts them on a short list of people that did again just another facet of these murders that you know i think helped capture people's attention so the police were continuing to wonder what the motive in this case was if the murders weren't some random thrill killing what was the motive sheriff sales told wsb tv were still just totally in the dark as to why this took place. There are many theories, but none of them have led to any answers. These murders seem to have been motivated, at least in part by anger.

Authorities initially suspected that Russell had been tortured before his death due to injuries on his hands, but it turned out to be an old injury to one of his fingers from World War II, and this was confirmed by their children. It seemed as if the police were stuck in the investigation, trying to figure out the next step. That's when another murder happened that caught some people's attention and made them wonder if it could be connected to the Derman murders, despite it being far away. On November 9, 2015, 83-year-old Lois Elizabeth Colley was attacked in her Westchester County, New York home and killed like Shirley Dermann. Her cause of death was blunt forced trauma to the head.

Investigators believe she was attacked with a fire extinguisher that had been wrapped in plastic and thrown into a pond. on the Colley's 300-acre property called Windswept Farm. Also, like the Dermond crime scene, there was no sign of forced entry, and it appeared that nothing had been stolen from the home. There was a very tenuous connection between the Collies and the Dermans. Lois Colley's husband, Eugene, was a multimillionaire who owned more than 100 McDonald's franchises.

In 2017, an arrest was made in the same. the collie murder and a farm laborer who had a beef with the collies was convicted of the murder. So a tenuous connection there, but it seems to really go nowhere after this farm laborer admits to the murder. It was very specific. He had a beef with them and that was the motive for the murder. But you do have two couples in their 80s, both own. fast food franchises. Now, these two murder scenes are pretty far apart, you know, probably close to a thousand miles from New York to Georgia, but you can see how police would at least look at the two. And it's hard to ignore some of the similarities. An older couple,

the fast food franchises, initially no motive that they could find. But in the end, it just seems like it was a wild goose chase. Some people wonder if the Dermann's murders could be connected to their son Mark's death in 2000. Mark was shot three times in Atlanta on his 47th birthday, August 30th, 2000. He had been in the area to purchase drugs, but the deal went south when the person he tried to buy from tried to rob him. He was shot and he died from his injuries. A friend, 51-year-old Grady Harris Jr., was also shot in the leg, but he survived the incident. An article about the crime states that Mark's killer,

28-year-old Chateek Hinnett, was arrested the next day after Harris identified him as the shooter. But it was a Troy Major who ultimately was sentenced to life imprisonment for malice murder in Mark's case and 20 consecutive years for aggravated assault, along with five consecutive years for possession of a firearm or in the commission of a felony. Despite someone being in prison for Mark's murder,

some people still wonder if the Derman murder, could be related to Mark's murder or the drug trade, Sheriff Schills has repeatedly stated that the murders are not linked in any way. And why would the Dermans be killed 14 years after their son, so long after his case was settled? In the end, the fact that their son too was murdered is interesting, but it seems to be just a coincidence. I do think,

more what some of these things show is that, you know, at this point in time, the police are really grasping it strong. They do not have a lot to go on. You know, they're looking at possible connections to Mark's murder. They even looked at, you know, the, the murder of Lois Colley. It would be strange for someone to be upset about, you know, Mark's murder, maybe a family member of the person who was put away to want revenge, but wait 14 years to take it. that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

And I think it just shows that they look at every possibility to see if there's any connection. But there's no, you know, this isn't a case where the Germans are some secret drug lord family. And they're still, you know, they're involved in something that's ongoing. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. So I think, you know, any kind of drug connection, it would just, they eliminated that pretty quick. The brutality of the crime and the lack of leads has many wondering if this was a hired hit by someone who is a professional. But who would want the Dermans' debt so badly that they were willing to hire someone to kill them? The public has been very suspicious of the Dermann's children since they would stand to inherit everything.

From the murders, a lakefront home valued it well over a million dollars. two high-end cars, Russell's Rolex collection, and any saving. But by all appearances, the Derman children were all doing financially well on their own. Bradley and Keith Dermond owned Ramsey Development, which operated fast food restaurants out of Florida. The company was doing very well,

generating over $14 million every year. Bradley was also a real estate agent with Sotheby's International Realty. Anything that would have made an immediate inheritance necessary, say a debt, shady dealings, or a threat should have been uncovered in this extensive investigation. If it was serious enough to necessitate the murders of two retirees, it should have been serious enough to leave a trail. Odd banking activity, suspicious behavior, hushed, intense, cell phone calls, something. none of the children or other family members have ever been named suspects in this case. And I think it would be only natural that police would have to look at the adult children.

Money is a motive, as we know, for many homicide. I mean, there's just no way around it. Many people have been killed for what is thought to be, you know, their inheritances. kids, and I say kids, but they could be in their 40s or even 50s, get into a jam financially. They know their parents are well off. They need money. Well, that is definitely a motive for murder. But, you know, it doesn't sound like there was any need for money.

I mean, they're doing over $14 million a year with this company. One of the guys was also, you know, a real estate agent. it just doesn't seem to fit. And I think money aside, it's just a fact that most people that are that are killed are killed by someone close to them. So the police had to look at the family and work out from there. So if not a family member of the Dermans, who might want them dead? There's still a lot of questions as to whether this was a hired hit.

And if it was supposed to be a quick hit with the only goal being that the Dermans died, why would the killer take the time to remove Russell's head? Why would they keep it? One explanation for this that's been tossed around a few times is that whoever hired the hit wanted proof that the job was done. Outside of movies or drug cartels, a human head seems way too risky to use as proof of death. They could have just taken a photo.

Cutting off someone's head means you have to stay at the crime scene after the victim is dead instead of just fleeing immediately. Nothing here really makes sense, with the head being needed for a hit. or for this being a hit at all. Why would someone hired to kill the Dermans not only take Russell's head with them, but take Shirley too?

Some people wonder if the murders were the result of mistaken identity. What if another resident of the gated community was the target and the killer or killers wound up at the wrong house? It was also pointed out that there is another man named Russell Dermond who was born in New Jersey. What if someone actually wanted him dead and somehow wound up killing the wrong Russell Dermann? And again,

Morph here, I think, you know, we're going down a lot of threads. The police went down a lot of threads. This one makes very little sense to me. I get it. Both people named Russell Dermond,

both born in New Jersey, but this Russell Dermin still lived in New Jersey, long ways from New Jersey to Georgia. It seems to me that if someone wanted that person dead, they wouldn't have made that type of mix up. But really, you know, the more you think about this case, the more it seems as though nothing really makes sense. Nothing points to a motive.

We mentioned it, right? Robbery doesn't seem to be a motive. If it was a robbery, the suspects got away with nothing but trouble. Russell's laptop was out on the table where he had last used it. Shirley's purse and cell phone were on her vanity and her jewelry was lying out. Now maybe something went wrong before the suspects got a chance to steal anything, but if you kill two people over a burglary gone wrong, wouldn't you want to get something for your trouble?

Maybe this was meant to be a simple robbery with no one getting hurt. Maybe the killer didn't intend to shoot Russell. The gun could have been meant to scare the couple and force them to easily comply with any demands. But maybe Russell fought back. If shooting him wasn't the plan, the burglary quickly would have turned into a cleanup job. After it became a murder, that cleanup would involve removing a human head, which seems like something most people could not comprehend doing. The original plan could have been to threaten Shirley's life to force Russell to hand over money.

Abducting Shirley makes the most sense if you're intending to collect a ransom of some sort, but no one ever called or rode in with any demands. In addition, if you're trying to do a kidnapping for ransom, committing a heinous murder almost ensures you'd never get a dime of that ransom money. Some people do point out that since Russell was shot and left in his home, it could point to Shirley being the main target all along, that Russell just got in the way and was neutralized. A suspect wanting to take out their main threat,

usually the mail in the home, is not uncommon. They could have thought that killing Russell would show Shirley that they were serious and forced her to give them anything they wanted. But if the killers wanted something, we still don't know what it was, because as far as we can tell, they never obtained anything. Perhaps Shirley was taken for a different reason. Maybe the crime was sexual in nature and Shirley was the target.

The only issue with that is there's no evidence of a sexual. sexual assault. And I think you can go through, you know, a bunch of different scenarios. Could they happen? Yes. But, you know, for my way of thinking, not a lot of these seem to make a lot of sense. You know, let's take ransom, for example, or, you know, any type of financial motivation to these crimes. Well, in the end, it doesn't seem like they got anything. And I guess, at it, you know, maybe the ransom angle doesn't work out. Things go badly. But wouldn't you want to at least get something? You've killed two people. Wouldn't you take valuables or any valuables you could find from the home? That part is really throwing me. And I think that's the problem of the

case like this. You can just go in circles trying to have it all make sense and trying to connect the dots. and at the end of the day, there's just, you're, you're just going in circles spinning around. Another theory is that someone from the Dermans past wanted revenge for something. Could it have been someone burned in a business dealing, a disgruntled employee, someone from their personal life? Then there's one possibility left, and that's that there was really no motive at all. And that may be the most frightening problem. The most common reasons for murder or jealousy or revenge, financial gain, some type of

crime of passion. But every so often, there is no motive for a murder. And the victim or victims just happened to cross paths with the wrong person at the wrong time. Could that be the case here? Could the Germans have been killed by someone with absolutely no motive? maybe a killer, maybe even a serial killer, just trolling for a victim or victims. We may never know.

The Derman family still wants answers about who killed Shirley and Russell, and why, even if earthly justice never comes. Bradley Derman told WSBTV, the solution of this case is probably more about what would give cause to this happening and less about revenge. I think with our strong faith, God will take care of that part of it. Multiple investigators, including Sheriff Sills and Special Agent Andy Smith, believe that there's more than one person responsible for these murders.

Bradley Dorman agreed, telling WSBTV, we feel that there's a very strong likelihood that it was done by more than one person. And any time you have that, then there's a greater chance for that information to leak. If there's more than one person out there who knows the truth, so far they haven't come forward. And I do think that Bradley is right about that. right if there is more than one person involved well then you have a greater chance that you know someone is going to talk someone's going to make the decision that they need to get something off their chest or that maybe the relationship between the two parties breaks down or or something along those lines

you often think about the lone killer or even the lone serial killer if they are not talking to anyone about what they're doing, then really either police catch on to them or they just decide to come forward and confess. In that scenario, there really is no other person to tell on them because nobody else knows about what they're doing. Man, I wonder how possible it is if this was like a two-man job could one of the people over the years said, you know what, I don't trust my partner in this. So I'm going to take them out so they don't blab and break down and go to the police. I wonder in the back of my mind if that could have happened, that kind of scenario.

And then I always think about a scenario that involves one of the individuals getting caught for another crime. And then maybe using this information as a way to either get out of or, lessen their sentence. That could be one way that a crime like this is solved. Authorities working the case believe it is solvable and they have not given up. FBI Special Agent Andy Smith told WSBTV, I'm very optimistic and I share Sheriff Sills optimism that we're going to bring this case to a resolution. It was announced early in 2003 that new DNA was found in the case when clothing items from the scene were reexamined. Both Othrom Laps and Sorensen forensics based in Utah have been working on the DNA samples,

which are believed to be from touch DNA. Perhaps the DNA evidence one day reveals answers. Agent Smith said, we have discovered DNA evidence that we are hopeful will lead to the individual or individual responsible for the Derman murders. In addition to the DNA work, cell phone data has also been used to try and narrow down a suspect. FBI agent Smith said, we have utilized different techniques and different methods of analyzing cellular data, different devices that may have been in the area during the murder and after the fact. geofence data was analyzed to try and see who was in the area during the window of time the murders could have occurred.

Time will tell if it helps break the case. To date, there have been no results from any of the new DNA analysis, and it's unknown whether the profile even had enough markers to run through databases like CODIS. Despite the use of geofensing, there are no new leads we know of on that front. In a Macon Telegraph article, Sheriff Sills has referred to the murders of the Dermans as a yoke around my neck. He added, I look in the mirror and there I am, still unable to solve this damn case. It's clear that he's frustrated by the lack of answers in this case. And we do see this from time to time.

I think it happens to a lot of investigators. You know, there's maybe one case in their career that nags at them. maybe even after they've retired because the case is so baffling. Obviously, it's never been solved. And I think it weighs heavily on some of these people who put so much time and effort into trying to solve it. That's got to be tough for some of these individuals. The total reward for information that leads to an arrest in this case

was recently raised to $25,000. This is a joint reward being offered by both the FBI and local authorities. FBI Special Agent Smith told Fox 5 Atlanta, in 20 years in the FBI, I have never seen a case like this. We wanted to put an additional reward out there to hopefully keep people talking about the case and generate leads for us. the authorities are hoping a higher reward leads to more tips. If you have any information, you can contact the FBI's Atlanta Field Office at 770-216-3,000, or call the Putnam County Sheriff's Office at 706-485-8557. So, Morph as we wrap up this case, there is no doubt that it is,

is a very perplexing one. I mean, you have this couple in their late 80s who have been married for 60 plus years. Who would want to hurt them? And why? I mean, I think those are two questions that lead back to motive that have to be answered. And right now, the authorities just haven't been able to find the answers to those questions. I think if you could find the motive that will put you on the right path to find the right person or persons, but in this case where the motive doesn't even seem clear. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, where do you begin searching and what avenue do you go down?

You know, one theory I have revolves around the ransom idea. We talked about how the theory is out there that they were going to abducturally and hold her for ransom. and somehow Russell stood up and thwarted their plans and they panicked and he died in the process. But one thing I was wondering if perhaps the intention was to abducted both of them originally and hold them for ransom and try and get money from their kids. We couldn't find out the total worth of the Germans or how much cash they might have access to. but we talked about specifically how their sons have a business generating $14 million a year. So I wonder if maybe they were the people that were going to be extorted and the ransom

is going to be sent to them. Hey, if you want your parents back, let's give us some money. We know you're making $14 million a year. I don't think too many people have mentioned that as a possibility. And there's a little bit of a Fargo vibe, the movie Fargo vibe, the movie Fargo. where they sort of set out to commit a crime that involves kidnapping and ransom and things go awry. And I wonder if something like that could be the situation here. Yeah, I'm right with you.

I kind of got a Fargo vibe as well. Now, I do believe that your theory about the children, these are adult children, but the children being maybe the ones who were going to be. be extorted for money is a very interesting angle. But back to this Fargo vibe, you plan something, let's say, and it just completely goes awry as you're trying to carry it out. At what point do the perpetrators completely ditch the plan because it's so far off track. You know, could that be the situation here where, you know, maybe initially it was going to be some type of ransom, but they just never got that far because it quickly went off the rails

and they made the decision that they were going to abandon it and kill these people. Or maybe they killed them and that is what caused their plans to, go so awry. Yeah, and it's just a big mess trying to weed through these things and figure out if something like that could be happening or is this just another rabbit hole and it has nothing to do with a ransom at all. Yeah, because I do go back to, you know, the, you know, just stranger theory, a bad person looking to do a bad thing. You know, that possibility to me always exists. Now, why the Dermans, you know, why, you know, why? this 80-year-old couple, I don't know. I'm assuming there were a number of people living in this

development. How do they get picked if it was a random type thing? And you have to wonder, could it have just been, you know, the house on the left or the house on the right? And, you know, that's all the thinking and the planning that went into it by whoever did this. But those are scary thoughts, right? When you get to that point, where you're thinking about or you're trying to get into the mind of a killer or killers and you're thinking about their selection process. That becomes very, very terrifying, especially if you're the neighbors or you live across the street from the Dermans, the thought that, well, it could have just as easily been

us as them. But that's it for our episode on Russell and Shirley Dermond. I mean, it does seem to me more as though they have some evidence in the case. We don't know how much. We don't know how viable the DNA evidence is. But this is one that I think you could see a resolution to sometime in the future. If you love the show, but haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, give us a rating,

leave a review. Also, keep telling your friends. word of mouth about the criminology podcast really helps us out. If you want to find us on social media, we're on X with a handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by going to facebook.com slash criminology podcast. And you can join our Facebook discussion group, criminology podcast discussion in fans. So that's it for another episode of Criminology, but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then for Mike and Morph.

We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.