Criminology - The Delphi Murders

Episode Date: February 16, 2019

13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German went missing on February 13, 2017. The two friends were out hiking and their families became worried when they didn't show to be picked up. After an extensive search, their bodies were found the very next day. Police recovered evidence from Libby's cell phone and released an image and small snippet of audio that they believe to be the suspect. But so far, this person has not been identified and the case remains unsolved. You can support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to another round of Boardroom or Miroboard. Today we talk retrospectives with Agile Coach Maria. Let's go. First question. You've spent two hours in a team retro, but the only input you've heard is Dave's. Boardroom or Meroboard? Boardroom. In Mero, Dave can't hog the space

because everyone can add thoughts anonymously, online at the same time. Correct. Next. You need the team to act on feedback fast, so you turn all those retro notes into GERA tasks instantly. Miro all the way. And I can assign those tasks to teammates.

You're nailing this. Now, you see hundreds of sticky notes from the retro. A real mess. But you organize them into five themes in just seconds. Miro, I basically get back an entire hour when I use its AI tools for clustering. And she's done it. Join over 60 million people running actually enjoyable

and actionable retros in Miro. Get your first three boards free at Miro.com. That's M-I-R-O-O-com. Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello, everyone. I want to welcome you to episode 48 of criminology. I'm Mike Ferguson.

And this is Mike Morford. Morph, how are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm getting ready for Valentine's Day with my lovely wife. Happy Valentine's Day to her. How you doing? I'm doing great. That's nice of you to give a shout out to your wife.

A happy Valentine's Day. That's great. No, we're just coming off of the more Murray two-parter. And I really, I don't want to say I like that case. That's not the right word. I've been fascinated by that case for a long time. And I really liked the opportunity to sit down with Tim and Lance and talk to them. You know, they have just immersed theirself in this case. And it was great, right, to sit down and be able to pick their brain. Yeah, it was. It's just one of this cases that's perplexing. And then we had the breaking news, a little bit of breaking news that Moore's dad felt like there might have been something going on and the case might be solved soon.

So it's going to be exciting to see what happens with that. And I don't know what it is about criminology, but we have this weird thing, right? We had it with Golden State Killer. We're in the middle of what turned out to be a huge. huge number of episodes on the Golden State Killer case, right in the middle of it. They arrest Joseph J. DeAngelo. Then you and I are working on the Moor Murray case, all of a sudden, in the middle of us doing it, this huge announcement.

And again, we don't know the resolution. It'll be interesting to kind of follow it in the news. It's interesting, too, that we have another case we were working on and we were prepping and doing some research on, and we got word from the family that there might be some movement in that case, and we had to put the brakes on that one. So there's another one we were already getting ready to cover that might have some movement, which we'll put that on the back burner, and hopefully we can bring that episode out soon when it's solved. It's almost like just a strange coincidence here or there. It does happen. So more if I'm

starting to get excited about CrimeCon in New Orleans this June. we've talked about it a couple times if anybody out there's going obviously we want you to stop by say hi to us if you need to purchase your badges for crimecon go to crimecon.com make sure you use our promo code criminology 19 at checkout you'll get 10% off your standard badge before we jump into this episode let's do our patreon shoutouts Kathy Thomason jumped up to our highest level we have had Joanne Smith jump out at our highest level. We had Maria Sviderskis and Bill Crumpton. So appreciate that support.

We appreciate the new support, the long time, continued support. It's amazing. All that goes a long way towards helping Morph and I put out the show. And as always, we can't thank you enough. It's appreciated. And if you'd like to support the show on Patreon, you can visit patreon.com slash criminology. And speaking of Patreon, a few days ago, we dropped the special Patreon episode into the feed. It's about some big Golden State Killer news.

I got to sit down with a team at Joke Productions who brought you the five-part HLN series in 2018 about the Golden State Killer called Unmasking a Killer. Unmasking a Killer is back for two all-new episodes Sunday, February 17th and Monday, February 18th. And we had a great conversation about the new episodes and the work that went into creating that show. If you're a Patreon supporter, you can catch that entire conversation right now on Patreon. And speaking of the Golden State Killer, we're coming up on the one-year anniversary of the rest of Joseph James DeAngelo. And I don't know about you, Mike, but I don't think we can rule out a big Golden State Killer episode to mark that one-year anniversary of the rest. What do you think?

I think there's probably something there. You know, we still have the contacts of the different people that we talk to. as we were putting that series of episodes together, it would be great to get some of them back, talk to them about, okay, just what we know now that we didn't know then since the arrest. And speaking of anniversaries, the case that we're covering today occurred two years ago this week. On February 13th, 2017, 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German spent the afternoon hiking on the Monon Bridge High Trail in Delphi, Indiana. The two girls failed to meet a family member that was supposed to pick them up, and that led to an extensive search of the trail area. Their bodies were found the next day on Valentine's Day.

The two girls had been murdered. An eerie photo taken by Liberty on her cell phone of the likely suspect is one of the things police have to help them identify him. But despite that photo, as well as an audio recording of the man, this case is still unsolved. In the two years since the murders, the case has generated many theories, a lot of rumors, but there's one thing that remains clear. Despite the lack of an arrest, police as well as the families have not given up hope on catching the killer.

This case remains one of the most profiled murder cases in recent history. The murders of two teenage girls represented a loss of innocence and sent a community into a state of fear and panic. What followed was an unprecedented nationwide manhunt for their killer, or killers, and it was front and center in the national spotlight. Despite a large reward and the massive effort to find out what happened to Liberty and Abigail, as of now, their case is still unsolved. We wanted to mark the anniversary this week by covering the case in this episode as a reminder to everyone that the case is still unsolved, and that the families of these young girls are still waiting for answers. I had the chance to sit down and talk with Liberty's grandparents, Mike and Becky Patty. They talked with me about some of the obstacles in this case, as well as some of the

misconceptions, and they recounted the timeline for us following the girls going missing. They also addressed some of the rumors and false headlines that have popped up over the past two years. You'll hear from Mike and Becky Patty throughout this episode. Delphi, Indiana is a small rural town, about 75 miles north of Indiana. Annapolis. The small town of approximately 3,000 people is surrounded by secluded, scenic nature trails known as the Delphi Historic Trails. This trail system runs through the valley of the Wabash River and features miles of train tracks. One of the trails is called the Monon High Bridge. And it leads to the historic Monon High Bridge. It was constructed. It was

constructed in 1881 and rebuilt in 1891 for the Monon Railroad. The Monon High Bridge spans more than 850 feet and towers 63 feet above Deer Creek. It's thought to be the second tallest bridge in Indiana. Trains ran across this bridge for almost 100 years until 1987 when the last train crossed. The bridge made Indiana landmarks 10 most endangered list in 2016. But since 1987, the abandoned railroad bridge

has remained a popular attraction for local residents despite its major disrepair. It's what drew Abigail Williams and Liberty German there on February 13, 2017. Liberty German, or Libya, as she was known to family and friends, was born on December 27, 2002 in Lafayette, Indiana, to Derek and Carrie German. She attended eighth grade with Abby.

Libby enjoyed playing sports. She loved to keep busy. She was a member of the school band and participated in the academic bowl in her high ability class. Some of her interests were painting, doing crafts, and going on vacation. Libby wound up living with her grandparents, Mike and Becky Patty, and she was extremely close to them. Abigail Williams, or Abby, as she was known to family and friends, was born on June 23, 2003 in Sioux St. Marie, Michigan. Her mother is Anna Williams. Abby was an eighth grader at Delphi Community Middle School, where she played the saxophone in the school band. She was also on the volleyball team

Abby loved reading. She loved the outdoors. Some of her favorite things to do outside were swimming, camping, and riding ATVs with her family on camping trips to Michigan. Other interests included photography and art. Abigail and her good friend Liberty were looking forward to going to high school together. These were two good kids. I cannot stress that enough. They didn't get into trouble.

And it was very fitting that they were extremely close friends. Libby was a people person. She, um, and athletic. She was involved in everything. She wanted to try everything. She, uh,

was a defender of somebody bullied somebody. She would step right in. She tried to make people happy. Like I said, she was athletic. She was in every sport just about. She had softball in the summer, and then she went directly into soccer. And from soccer, it was volleyball.

And then as soon as volleyball was over, it was swimming. And she would have about two weeks in between, and softball started again. So she was a very busy person. She didn't have time to get into much trouble because, like I said, she was in sports, so she had practice about every night. She was in all high ability classes. So she did, you know, she had a lot of class work. She was, and the rest of the time, usually it was weekends.

It was family. When she wasn't into sports and stuff, it was family and friends. Abby was busy also in a lot of things, but she would stay here quite often. As a matter of fact, she had stayed here the night before. She had gone to Florida with us on vacation before. So, yes, we had her around quite a bit. Abby and Libby enjoyed spending time with one another outside of school, and the two really were best friends. Monday, February 13, 2017 was a beautiful sunny day in Delphi, Indiana, with temps in the mid-40s.

Because there was an unused snow day from the school year, that day was credited, and the school closed that day. Libby and Abby didn't want to waste their day off, and they decided to go hiking that afternoon. The trails and bridge were a great spot for them to go out to. It was a place where people would often walk and hike to be out in nature. It was about four to five miles from Libby's home. The day that this all happened, we weren't looking at our clocks exactly. I know there's been a lot of confusion, and I know that it was reported by the media in the beginning that they were dropped off about one o'clock. But what we did is we went back through our phone records to get a lot of our information as close as what we can.

obviously we cannot be down to the exact minute. But the girls had slept in and they got up. Derek was here and he made pancakes for him. It was more of a brunch type thing because they had stayed up a lot of the night, painting and stuff. Then Libby was bored. She always wanted to be doing something, but she had gotten into shopping.

She liked to shop. So I told her that if you guys do some work for me, because I have an office here at home, that we'd go shopping or something later. So they were doing some filing for me for my business. And my end of it was Kelsey, her sister came out about one o'clock and said, hey, I'm going to go to a friend's house before I go to work because Kelsey did have a job. So Libby jumped up at that time and said, hey, can we go?

And I told her that she had to have a ride because I didn't have time to take it. take off of work to come pick him up, that if she had a ride back home that they could go, they left here right around 1.30. And Kelsey is the one that took them and dropped them off. Kelsey German dropped the girls off just after 1.30 p.m. near Monon High Bridge, just east of Delphi. Phone records would later pinpoint the drop-off time at 1.38 p.m. Nothing was out of the ordinary or unusual. The plan was that Libby's father, Derek German, would pick the girls up around 3.15 p.m. At around 207 p.m. A Snapchat picture was taken from Libby's cell phone of Abby walking on the Monon High Bridge, and there was another one of just the bridge itself. Once again, at that point, nothing seemed out of the ordinary, and there were no other people in the pictures.

then around 315 Libby's father Derek arrived to pick up the girls' plan he called Libby on her cell phone but she never answered and this wasn't like the girls to not show up to not follow the plan so very quickly Derek was concerned

Derek called me about 3.30 he had gotten out and he walked around some and he tried calling her several times and she didn't answer. So he called me about 3.30 and said, hey, Libby's not answering her phone. Will you try? You know, maybe I can't get through or something. He didn't know.

So I started calling and messaging her. My daughter, Tara, also started calling. And we just weren't getting an answer. And that's not like Libby not to answer her phone. So by that time, we thought, wow, you know, maybe your phone went dead or something. We weren't, we weren't sure because it was, it would pick up. and go to voicemail. So about

4 o'clock, I called Mike, my husband, and said, hey, something's not right. Libby's not answering her phone. Her and Abby are at the trails. We're going to head on over there and start looking, and he said, I'll meet you there. So at that point in time, about 4 o'clock,

we went there. We weren't officially alarmed. We just know that's not like Libby not to answer her phone something wasn't right. We searched our family and we there were several of us. We called in and we all walked the paths, walked the trails and I was on the phone to AT&T as I was out there, service provider to see if there was any way I could get them to ping her phone or to track her phone because we know there's the capability there. So I spent most of my time as I was walking on the phone. And they, we, I tried everything. They, they, they, they couldn't do it or wouldn't do it. I don't

know what their policies are. And about, uh, 520, it was somewhere in there. Mike happened to come up on me as we were walking. And I said, it's going to be dark pretty soon. We need to call the police. So, uh, I think we looked at his phone records too. And it was right at 520 when he called, he called the police. Once police were notified that Libby and Abby were missing, they wasted little time in coming out to the scene to help search for the girls. At that point in time, there was very little, if any, hesitation on their part. In fact, they were out there at the trails, probably within 15, 20 minutes, walking from the other direction. And it quickly spread out either across social media or just, obviously, it's a smaller community.

So the fire department was engaged. There were people searching hundreds of people all around Delphi. Like I said, including the Delphi pleas, the Carroll County Sheriff's Department. Everybody was looking continually that evening. More formal search parties were kind of arranged through the fire department, the volunteer fire department there. They were going out, walking various trails and areas around Delphi. And that went on until probably.

up close to midnight. And so that's somewhere in there is where you hear the official search was called off because it was dark and concerned for people's safety. But I will say that there were people who searched all night long. I mean, I was there and they said, Mike, we're not going to stop. And neither did I. I continue to search well into the waning hours of the morning. And there's people that were out there all night long. And then the official search picked up back at daybreak. The search by police and volunteers hadn't led to the girls being found, and word was starting to spread around town that Libby and Abby were missing.

Just before midnight, the Carroll County Sheriff said in a news release that there was no reason to suspect foul play or to believe the girls were in immediate danger. The biggest concern at the time was exposure to the elements. Hours later, on Valentine's Day, February 14th, the search resumed. that included canine units and dive teams. The search went on through the day until around noon when the girl's bodies were discovered about 50 feet from Deer Creek and a half mile east of the bridge.

The local fire department and along with the sheriff and police, they did a coordinated search effort and put search parties together with either a member of the fire department or a member of law enforcement. So there was ability to have radio contact and various communications and with some level of authority, you know, within each search party. And, uh, I mean, I don't know exactly, uh, I mean, I do know who found them, but we don't, we don't need to name people at this point,

but they found them right about noon, noon time frame is when they called in. They found them. My wife and I both were in separate search parties. Somebody had called somebody, I believe, in her search party on, you know, via cell phone and said, hey, they think they found the girls. and then I happened to be in one of the search parties and heard one of the radios, some radio chatter come across that they think they found them. So I left my area just like my wife did, and we both headed to what they call the trailhead there,

basically the area where they were originally dropped off. They didn't officially tell us then. They did call us all in to the fire department to give us an official that they had found two people. But at that point in time, they would not officially name the girls. And more, if this is a nightmare scenario for any parent, you know, this is something that I talk with my wife about a lot. As my two daughters have gotten older, they're not in the house all the time. They are out doing things with their friends. As a parent, you can't watch your kids 24-7

as they start to get older. Now, what I will say is, at least for me, personally, I always feel better when I know my child is out with someone else. Yeah, I think it's a safety in numbers situation. You feel there's less of a chance of something happening to them if there's somebody with them. And I think statistically that's probably true. If there is someone bad out there targeting young people, I would think most likely they're looking for someone who's alone. More if you and I research a lot of cases. We've done a lot of cases between all the different podcast that we do. One thing that I've noticed is most predators are looking for the, the most vulnerable person they can find.

In a lot of instances, I'm not going to say that that's always the case. That would fit in with someone being by themselves in a lot of situations, but it doesn't even have to be something that sinister. You know, it could be something like a twisted ankle. You don't want your child out walking in the woods alone, twisting an ankle, not being able to walk. I guess the point I'm making in a long-winded way is to say you just always feel like there's safety in numbers. And I really feel for the families of Abby and Libby. Because I've been in that situation as probably a lot of the parents listening to this podcast have. But I will say,

Mike and Becky Patty, you know, they did the right things. They made sure the girls were with each other, They made sure that everybody had phones. They had rides. Everything was set up. They had a ride set up from the trail. And it's when the girls didn't show up, the family immediately went looking for them. They didn't waste any time before calling the police. I just don't know how they could have handled it any better.

Yeah, I agree, Mike. It seems like they did everything they possibly could have done to keep their girls safe and to feel comfortable that they were out that day. And your kids are older than mine. Mine are too young to go any place alone. But I assume that when your kids went out, you two felt better knowing that there was somebody with them, knowing that they had somebody that could call if they got hurt or get a hold of you if need be. Yeah, there's no doubt. I mean, I have two girls, a 13-year-old and an 18-year-old.

Obviously, the 18-year-old is out even more than the 13-year-old driving. and again, I always like it better when she's with someone else, whether it's her best friend, it's her boyfriend. I just don't like her going places like the mall, places like that by herself. The news that the girls were dead was obviously devastating for Libby's and Abby's families. Shock, I guess, would be one of the first things we felt was just, you know, that this isn't happening, you know, this is not real. and to be honest with you, we still feel many times that way today that this, this hasn't really happened.

I mean, this, you know, she's going to come walking through the door any time now. I mean, it's, it's a horrible thing to live through. So, you know, we literally probably, as a family for months, just, we're in shock. And a lot of things become blurry through that whole time because of it. Your life's changed. 180, 360 degrees at that point. And that's when people say, I can't imagine. No, you can't.

Because I couldn't either before this. And I still don't know where we're, you know, where we're going, what we're doing. It's a total upheaval of everything that was normal to us prior to this happening. The Delphi community was also shocked and saddened beyond belief. This wasn't the outcome people expected. If anything, family and friends thought that maybe the girls had a hiking accident. Murder was the furthest thing from their minds. A couple of residents spoke briefly with local media.

One said it was very upsetting. This is a small community, and you don't expect things like this to happen in your community. Another person said, this is a family, this is a family town. We all have kids around here. And that's kind of scary. That afternoon, police held a press conference where they said foul play was suspected. When asked by reporters why they thought that foul play was suspected, all the police would say was quote, because of the way the bodies were found.

But more to this day, police have refused to say how the girls died. And this has led to a lot of speculation. online about how the two girls died, some of which is pretty horrific morph and has to be traumatic to the families if they end up reading something like that. Because I don't think that these people that are saying these things online have any inside knowledge. Again, they're speculating. And I'm not saying they don't have the right to do that, but it can also cause some

damage. But as we know, and as we've talked about on other episodes, police always want to hold some information back. And I think in this instance, the manner of death is one thing they want to hold back. You know, the Indiana state police has come out and said, we don't want to put too much information out. If and when we catch the person or persons, we want to make sure that we know that when we ask questions, we can tell whether the answers are coming from that person's mind, not from what they've heard or read in the news. It's basically for the integrity of the case. And I think that's really smart. On True Crime All Time Unsolved Morp, right now we're in the middle of the West Memphis three case, the murders of Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers, Michael

more. In that case, a lot of the information, specific information about how those three boys died was leaked very early on to the press. And so it was out there for everybody to hear. So then when you have people coming in and you're interviewing them, that's one of the big questions in that case. Did that information come from a person that was really, at the crime scene, or were those just things that they heard on the news that everybody pretty much knew about? That's a perfect example of why you don't put too much information out there. While the public wants to know certain things and they're curious, the police have to balance not putting too much information out there and getting false confessions and bogus people coming

forward with false claims. And I'll go back to the Moore-Murie case. We talked about it in that case. Now, as time goes on, as a case gets older and older, police have to decide. At what point are we going to be willing to put more and more information out in the hopes of solving this thing? Ronald Logan owns the 40-acre property where the girl's bodies were found. He told a news crew that his land was filled with hundreds of police cars and vehicles, as well as generator trucks, to keep the lights on as they search for clues. Logan described the property as difficult to navigate, and he apparently was as shocked as everyone else about the news. Who would have thought they let their children out to do something special that day,

take a trip down and then turn out a disaster like this? For 53 years, Logan's lived on the country road near the trail that leads to the Monon High Bridge. People walk up and down with their children, and yeah, it's quite a nice little trail on the bridge, Never, though, has Logan seen anything like what he has this week, the search for an eventual discovery of the bodies of Libby German and Abby Williams. The area that they were in is very hard to get to. I mean, you can't get there unless you walk there. I mean, so somebody would be walking with them or something.

Since the bodies were found on Ron Logan's property, police obviously wanted to question the 77-year-old man. He told the police that on February 13th, the same day the girls went to. missing, he had driven to a county dump, which immediately caught their attention. Following questioning, his home was searched, and his vehicle was impounded, and Ron Logan was arrested, but not for anything involving the deaths of Libyan Abbey. It turned out that he was on probation for drinking and driving offenses, and wasn't allowed to be driving. He was later sentenced to jail time for his driving offenses. The trip he had taken to the dump on February 13th was confirmed to be before Libby and Abbey

were ever dropped off at the trail, and Ron Logan is not considered a person of interest in the case. On February 15th, 2017, police released a grainy image of a man walking on the Monon High Bridge the day of the girl's murders, but they refused to say where the image came from. At the time, they just wanted to speak with the man to see if he could help in their investigation. And they asked the public to help identify him. But no one came forward. The next day, police executed a case-related search warrant at a home in Delphi, but no arrests were made. Police officially named the man in the photograph a suspect on February 19.

According to an FBI description, the suspected killer is a white. male who weighs between 180 and 200 pounds. He stands between 5 foot 6 and 5 foot 8 and that day was wearing blue jeans, a blue jacket or coat, and a hoodie. As we mentioned earlier, while autopsies were performed on both girls, police remain tight-lipped on the cause of death, conditions of the bodies, and what exactly happened to the girls that day. On February 22nd, 2007, police held a news conference and officially declared the case a double homicide investigation. They released an audio clip of a voice saying, Down the Hill, and said that both the still image and audio clip were taken from Libby German's cell phone.

Authorities have indicated that more evidence relating to the suspect was found on the phone, but it will not be released so as not to, quote, compromise and any future trial. The police hailed Libya hero for having the courage to capture both the video and audio before she died. That same day, the killer was added to the FBI's most wanted list. And obviously, Morf, there's not much here in this audio, but what I believe most people think is that this man, in saying down the hill, is directing Libby and Abbey to go down the hill. I mean, I literally think it's, that's what most people think it is. I think it's, it's pretty obvious that he's ordering them down a hill someplace.

The question is where we have to assume it's out on that trail someplace, but we don't know how much material the police actually have. This is just three words out of possibly many words that they have. They have other information on that phone that was recorded about this guy. So they may have a lot more insight. as to where he was saying that and the context. But I remember this vividly, you know, a couple of years ago. It caused a stir, you know, around the country, but specifically with true crime

podcasters. I remember, you know, all of us getting together on the same weekend as we were putting out our episodes and making sure that we talked a little bit about this. we included the clip. It was kind of a concerted effort among a bunch of the true crime podcast at the time. Now, this was a couple years ago. There wasn't near as many true crime podcasts as there are today. The community was much smaller, but I remember it vividly.

And I think we have to talk about the head start police had in this investigation. Morph, I think if you asked any detective, how valuable. this type of information is audio and video of a suspected killer, I don't think there's any doubt. They would tell you that having this early on in an investigation would be invaluable. And that's exactly what they had with this information that Libby recorded on her phone was a major head start in the investigation. This man's image and voice went out nationwide.

And like you said, this case was front and center for many weeks. But still, no arrest came from all that publicity. That has to be extremely frustrating for police to have that material, yet not have it lead to anything. And not frustrating just for police, Mike, but also for Libby's and Abby's families too, I think. You have to assume that hundreds of thousands of people. people across the nation have seen and heard what Libby recorded on her phone. And it's mind-boggling to me that so far this guy has evaded capture. You know, somebody somewhere knows him or works with him or lives next to him. So it's mind-boggling that he has never been identified, in my opinion.

Two days later, on February 24th, authorities confirmed they had DNA evidence that they fast-track for testing and hoped the DNA profile would be a match for a DNA profile in the national database. They refused to say what DNA was found at the crime scene. And one thing that has me scratching my head was, despite the fast-tracking of the DNA, which police felt at the time was important enough to mention it, here it is two years later, and it hasn't been mentioned again. I don't know if it means that the DNA was a dead end or they couldn't do anything with it, but I for one would love to know what the outcome was with that DNA.

Yeah, you're so right morph, especially because we know what can be done with DNA under the right circumstances. It can be tracked to the right person or at least a right family and then down eventually to the right family member. And maybe that's what's going on behind the scenes. And again, maybe police don't want to tip their hand. But one thing we know for sure, a ton of tips were pouring into the task force that was set up after the girls were discovered thousands of tips. But eventually, as they all do, that task force started to wind down and the tips slowed to a trickle.

Apparently none of them included info that could lead police to this suspect. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and Water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

By early March 2017, a Facebook group was created to talk about the case, and it already had over 16,000 members in it by month's end. Today, there are 23,000 members. Since that original Facebook group popped up, several other groups about the case were also started, allowing citizen detectives to discuss the puzzling aspects of the case, potential suspects, and other details. But not all the interaction was positive. people began to randomly throw up pictures of anyone who remotely looked like the image of the man on the bridge, who was dubbed bridge guy. Police actually reached out to some of the administrators of these Facebook groups, asking them not to share too much that would hurt the case,

or caused too much confusion surrounding it. But based on the activity and heavy interest in these groups, it was clear that the murders of Libby and Abbey were viral in social media. I think it's a testament to just how angry people were. that this happened to two young girls who were out together in a walk, not doing anything wrong, and a monster happened upon them. If it could happen in Delphi,

it could happen anywhere. And more, if you and I know the power of Facebook groups, you know, it's something that we have for a number of the podcast that we work on, they can be great. You can get a lot of members in there. The conversations can be interesting.

It gives people a place to, talk about some of the cases that we profile, but anytime you get a large number of people in anything, you're going to have some negatives. On March 9th, 2017, Libby's grandfather, Mike Patty, held a press conference discussing the case and thanking people for their help. This would not be the last time Mike Patty would speak publicly about the murders. As word continued to spread across the country about the gruesome double murders, there was discussion of the possible link to the unsolved Iowa murders of 10-year-old Lyric Cook and 8-year-old Elizabeth Collins. These two cousins disappeared on July 13th, 2012 while bike riding in the

Myers Lake area of Evansdale, Iowa. Months later, their bodies were found 25.5.5.5.5.5.5.5.5 miles away near a desolate wooded area known as the seven bridges wildlife area. As in the case of Libyan Abbey, police investigating the case of Lyric and Elizabeth also declined to release a cause of death. But despite some similarities between the cases, police have found no connection linking them together and do not believe they are related. By March 22nd, 2017, police had received 14,000 tips. The total reward being offered in Libby's and Abby's case swirled to over $230,000, thanks in part to former Indianapolis Colts punter, Pat McAfee, and Colts owner, Jim Ursay,

who were heavily involved in helping to raise money for the reward fund. By June 2017, police received around 18,000 tips, and about four to five new ones each day. On July 17, 2017, authorities released a sketch of the suspected killer in the Delphi murders. The person depicted in the composite sketch was described as a white male between 5 foot 6 and 5 foot 10, weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish brown hair and an unknown eye color. The sketch depicts a hat that may or may not be accurate. This sketch was put together based on information investigators have collected so far from numerous witnesses they've spoken with. In August of 2017, police said more audio from Libby German

cell phone was played for the victim's families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them. In the audio, the girls mostly talked about the types of things that girls talk about. But then all of a sudden they mentioned the man. But as with a lot of things in this case, authorities didn't make any further comments on this particular bit of audio. Since the girls were murdered, there has been a lot of speculation as to who the man on the bridge is. Many people have been falsely accused,

causing the Indiana State Police to once again request that armchair detectives and internet sluice not post-picture. online of anyone they suspect. And more if I think this is a growing problem, you know, it comes with the internet. We know the internet has spawned a lot of online slews in a lot of ways. That's a great thing. But this particular part about throwing up pictures, you know, it happens a lot on Facebook of anybody that remotely looks like a composite sketch, it can be very damaging to the person in that picture, especially, you know, obviously if they're not the killer, you know, who wants an image of themselves taken by some other person slapped up online

with a caption that reads, is this the Delphi murderer? Or you know, or you. name the case, whatever case it is, that's not a good thing for innocent people. It's more than that because sometimes it's not just a photo. It's a complete doxing of the person. It's a name, an age, what street they live on, a lot of identifying information that can hurt a person's reputation. And once that's out there, you can't take that back. No, and that's a great point more if that you're making. Oftentimes, it is much more than just the picture. People find out who this person really is and literally just put as much information as they can out there. In a lot of these circumstances, it's just very reckless. I'll leave it at that.

Just when the case seemed to be going nowhere, a person of interest was finally named. In October 2017, 32-year-old Daniel Nations was arrested in Colorado for having a hatchet and a 22-caliber gun in his vehicle. He was arrested after being stopped for expired Indiana license plates. His vehicle matched the description of a man known as Hatchet Man, someone who had been terrorizing bikers on a Colorado trail with a hatchet. A local man named Tim Watkins was murdered in the same area where Hatchet Man was seen. Watkins was shot several times and left under a pile of twigs. The gun found the nation's car was the same caliber used in the Watkins murder. Nations admitted to being the Hatchet Man, but denied any involvement in Tim Watkins' murder.

Colorado authorities noticed the similarities between the two cases and the Delphi murders. Nations also bore a striking resemblance to the sketch in the Delphi case. Colorado authorities contacted investigators in Delphi, and detectives flew to Colorado to question Nations about the murders of Abby and Libby. They discovered that Nations was only about 90 miles away from Delphi at the time of the murders. However, by February 2018, police said there was little to no connection between Daniel Nations and the murders of Abby and Libby, and he was ruled out as a suspect. In May of 2018, Daniel Nations pled guilty to failure to register as a sex offender in Johnson

County, Indiana. the charge was unrelated to the Delphi investigation. A few months later on November 19, 2018, a man forced three women into a back room at the Catholic supply store in St. Louis, Missouri. He was armed with a gun and he told the women to strip. When one of the women did not comply with his demands, the man shot her in the head. He then proceeded to rape the unresed. other two women. The very next day, the St. Louis County Police Department posted this on their

Facebook page. As we continue to investigate the homicide and assault, here's a more detailed description of the suspect. The suspect is a white male, 5-7 to 5-9, 40 to 50 years of age. At the time of the incident, he was wearing a navy blue Carhart style, work jacket, a red, white, and black plaid shirt, glasses, a brown belt with a red and blue square on the clasp or clip of the belt, and a distinctive hat. The hat investigators believe the suspect was wearing is commonly referred to as an ivy hat, Irish hat, newsboys hat, or a flat hat. The next day, 53-year-old unemployed former pastor Thomas Bruce of Imperial Missouri was apprehended by police and charged with 17 counts,

including first-degree murder, sodomy, and attempted sodomy in the Catholic supply shooting. Other charges included first-degree burglary, tampering with evidence, and armed criminal action. The Missouri case itself was different from the Delphi murders, but what caught the attention of Indiana authorities and the public is what Bruce was wearing during the St. Louis shooting, a newsboy-type flat cap and a blue coat, both similar to what the suspect wore in the Delphi murders. Bruce is about the same height and also resembles the composite sketch of Libby's and Abbey's killer. Investigators in Delphi stated, quote, we're aware of the similarities and we've been in contact with authorities there in St. Louis County,

but it is way too early to tell if this is the same. man. As of now, no further update between the two cases has been announced. On January 8th, 2019, 46-year-old Charles Eldridge was arrested on child molestation charges in Union City, Indiana. This is about 120 miles southeast of Delphi. When his mugshot was released to the public, media and members of the public drew comparisons between Eldridge and the composite sketch of Abbeys and Libby's killer. Not only that, but it came out that Eldridge was an avid hiker, but that he also shared posts on social media appealing for information in Abbe's and Libby's case.

But investigators were quick to tell the public, not to jump to any conclusions. Indiana State Police issued the following on the news. at the request of the Delphi multi-agency investigative team, which consists of members of the Carroll County Sheriff's Department, the FBI, and the Indiana State Police. The following information is being provided to the public and media. The Delphi multi-agency investigative team and participating agencies continue to receive media and public inquiries asking about the person arrested January

8th, 2019 in Union City. He was arrested in Randolph County for allegations of sexually related crimes against children and they're asking if he is connected to the Delphi investigation. The team is aware of this arrest and will investigate to see if there could be any connection to the murders that occurred in Delphi, Indiana on February 14th, 2017. It is important for the public. and the media to know that many similar tips and arrests of other persons alleged to be connected to the Delphi murders occur with some frequency in and outside of Indiana.

Each tip, whether it receives media attention or not, is investigated for any connection to the Delphi case. That being said, members of the investigative team do not speak to specific actions or steps of the ongoing investigation. Captain Dave Burstyn, the chief public information officer for the Indiana State Police, commented, we know it's hard for the public in media

to resist posting side-by-side comparisons on social media of people who are alleged to have committed heinous crimes and also resemble the sketch of the Delphi murder suspect. The only positive result from these actions is it keeps this open investigation in the mind of the public.

What we really appreciate is when the public submits their tip information to either the tip email address of Abby and Libby Tip at C-A-C-O-S-H-R-F.com or calls the tip line at 844-459-5786 to pass along their information. Birsting concluded by saying, I can promise you this. when arrest is made of a suspect identified by the multi-agency investigative team as the alleged perpetrator of the Delphi murders, rest assured, we will let everyone know. The Randolph County Sheriff's Department said Eldridge did not have any connection to the Delphi murders. Police said that Eldridge wasn't considered a suspect, and nothing ties him to the Delphi murders besides a similarity in appearance to the sketch.

because of the lack of information released by police in this case, people have speculated on whether or not it's going cold, but investigators insist the case is very active. One thing that the online community and citizen sleuths have done is come up with so many theories and suspicions that some of them even cast suspicion on Libby's and Abbey's own families, something that is completely inaccurate and only muddies the water in this case. Mike and Becky Patty wanted to clear up some of those things.

One of the rumors I heard was that when, after we called Mike, he came home to go through some stuff. That's not true. Mike came straight there. And yes, when he first got there at that point in time, we were still looking. We weren't quite sure. Yes, he has a friend that was in law enforcement, and he did call him. And to ask him, look, this is what's going on, you know, what do you suggest? You know, so yes, he did.

Is there anything sinister or anything hidden in any of that? No, it's not like we had a handbook of what we were supposed to do. Libby's pretty responsible. You aren't thinking the worst at that point in time, not here. You know, this has never happened like this around here. We never expected anything. You know, the worst that we expected is maybe they slid down a hill and she lost her phone and they couldn't get up there.

You know, that's what we were, we were expecting to go out and walk the trails and holler for him. And then holler and say, hey, here we are. That is what when we first went out, we were thinking. Yeah, and to further qualify that, I work at a place in Lafayette, and you have to badge, I have to badge in twice and I'm on video camera to get in there. and you got a badge out to get to leave and I'm again I'm on video camera so there's been a lot of speculation that it was me I was out there and let's face it that's what gets thrown out there that's just wasted effort if people would really focus on it I mean the police know exactly where I am come on give the law enforcement some credit yes did they check me out yeah I hope they did I want them to check everybody out but again give the give the law enforcement some credit there that I mean I've been fully vetted and checked and But I don't waste time when people put that stuff on it doesn't mean a thing to me. That's just detractors or people that are uninformed.

You know, if they want to focus and help on the case, then get the spread it out. That provides no value whatsoever to the justice these girls deserve. So I don't waste any time on it. And every one of us, every one of us that was around Libby at all, her friends that came in contact with her quite frequently, we were all swathed. Every one of us gave DNA. And it wasn't me. I didn't take Mike's DNA. FBI came. They have protocol procedure is how they took his DNA. It has been out there that I'm the one that took his DNA. And that's ridiculous. So none of these men that people have been excited about as being possible suspects in the Delphi murders has panned out.

The family and friends of Libby and Abby, they're still waiting on justice. But in the meantime, they're keeping their stories a lot. Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky Patty, have done numerous media interviews. They even attended the 2018 Crime Con. Also in attendance was Abby's mother, Anna, and Libby's older sister, Kelsey German. You know, at first we had some reservations about doing that. to be honest, none of us knew anything about it. And we went to Anna and because of a lady on Facebook in our brainstorming group

came to me when I was in Indianapolis and told me about CrimeCon because it was in Indianapolis the year before and said, listen, I think this is something you need to do. And she was the one that made arrangements with the producer and all of them to say, hey, you know, you need to look at this case. And I did talk to them at that time. But like I said, we had reservations. But after we got there, both families, Annas and ours both, have decided that was probably one of the best things we had done yet because it was everybody, everybody there would come up to us and say, what can we do to help you? It was quite humbling that there were so many people out there that really wanted to help us catch this killer. Because that is, that has become our

focus to catch him. And we know we can't do it alone. And we're doing everything we can to help law enforcement to be able to do their job. And it takes people like the people from CrimeCon to help us. And I believe that it's going to be people like that and the people that in some of our I have a brainstorming group, which is nothing but to think outside the box different ways. We can get his picture out there. And it's going to be one of these people or one of these, I truly believe, will be behind how this guy gets caught. Because it was amazing. When we went to crime, you know, we had been on Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz and had talked to Nancy Grace before.

And you wouldn't believe how many people at CrimeCon. and you know yourself that these people, that's what they do, or they follow crimes. And we had so many people come up to us and say, I'm sorry, but I've never heard of your case. So that was quite an experience because we just thought it was out there everywhere. And then we realized, oh, it's not nearly as known as what we thought. And then we said, well, how do you not know? It's been on national TV and everything. And so many people today don't watch TV.

It's all podcasts. It was clear just how many people at CrimeCon were touched by Livy Zanavvy's case and wanted to do anything they could to help their families. Kelsey met Michelle Cruz, whose sister Janelle was a victim of the Golden State killer, now identified as Joseph James DiAngelo. Of course, you've heard Michelle on our podcast. Michelle and Kelsey bonded immediately, and Michelle has been instrumental in helping Kelsey move forward in her pursuit for justice.

Kelsey is in good hands with Michelle leading the way for her. and we can only hope that Kelsey has an answer in Libby's murder the way that Michelle got one in Janelle's. Mike and Becky Patty, as well as Abby's mother Anna, appeared on the Dr. Phil show in December of 2017 in an effort to generate more publicity about the case. In an interview with Indianapolis Month, earlier this month. Kelsey spoke of the last time she saw the girls. According to the article, Kelsey didn't worry when she dropped the girls off that day. The bridge was a familiar spot. She left the girls walking down the trail and then drove to pick up her boyfriend. They both worked at the Dairy Queen in Delphi. But not long after Kelsey's phone rang and her life changed. When

Kelsey left Delphi for Muncie, Indiana to attend college, she liked the fact that no one there knew who she was. But that did very little to help her get justice for Abby and Libby. During her freshman year, Kelsey was asked to give a speech on the topic. This, I believe, for a public speaking course, Kelsey could have spoken about anything. She could have chosen any topic. but she chose to speak about her sister and Abby. Here's some of the text from Kelsey's speech. At 1.35, we arrived at the entrance to the bridge.

The girls got out of my car, and I never saw them alive again. Everything from that moment goes in slow motion when I allow myself to actually go back over that day and the week that followed. I was asked to remember things that I had dismissed, interrogated by countless police officers and FBI agents. followed by strangers with cameras and news reporters in vans. For weeks, I tore myself down, contemplating how I should have been with her. I told myself, I could have saved them.

I may not have made it, but at least my sister might be here. I wouldn't be hurting, asking myself, if I would have been there, could I have really helped? Or would my sister be here mourning the loss of her big sister? Or worse, would my family have had to suffer a double loss, playing two funerals. Since then, Kelsey has become highly active in the search for her sister's killer. She's now on Twitter advocating for not only Libby and Abby, but for other cases as well. You can find her with the Twitter handle at Liberty G underscore sister.

In memory of Libby, Kelsey also got a tattoo that reads, I can't see you, but I can feel you. The families of Libby and Abbey, they haven't given up on the case being solved. We're still waiting on that one key piece of information, I guess, you know. And that's what I say. This guy lives down the street from somebody or he's somebody's neighbor. And if somebody says, you know what, that could be, but, you know, old Joe or whatever, wouldn't do that. Well, once you call that in, let the police work that.

They have all the tools and, you know, available to them to run somebody's information and check out, see if there even could be a possibility that they would be involved. So that's what I ask of people to do is the girls went down, you know, fighting, trying to give us information. We've got, you know, that audio clip and a picture and a sketch from somebody who saw the guy leaving that day. Somebody out there says, you know what, that looks like the guy that. lives down the hall from me or I work with him or I see this guy at a diner every week,

you know, or every Friday morning or whatever. We'll call that information in, be as specific as possible with the police to let them focus in on it and say, okay, you know, Joe, I'll just use a name. Joe, you know, it couldn't be him. He was out of the country or whatever, you know, let those guys do that job. Don't try to figure it out on our own. and discount somebody, let those guys do it, because they truly have all, they have all kinds of information and tools that they can use that a lot of us aren't even aware of.

As for the Delphi community, life goes on and they're trying to move forward. Not long after the girl's deaths, David McCain, a member of the Deer Creek Township Advisory Board and longtime advocate for the preservation of Monon High Bridge, was concerned about how the town to the bridge after the tragedy. He went to the local high school and talked to the students, a counselor, and the principal to get their opinion on whether or not they should restore the bridge. The group was unanimous in their decision. Restore the bridge.

Several months after the murders, McCain and about 100 other locals took part in a walk and prayer near Monon High Bridge. McCain recounted, quote, It was quite moving for me. There were so many kids. You could see that they wanted to reclaim their trail. In April 2017, Indiana landmarks announced plans to restore Monon High Bridge. The project cost was estimated to be about $120,000 and will be paid for through various grants.

Once the repairs are completed, ownership of the Monon High Bridge will be transferred to Deer Creek Township. Current plans call for the refurbished bridge to become part of Delphi's extensive trail system. So essentially they want to rebuild it, number one, to make it safe for pedestrians, but ultimately it will create a breathtaking public overlook in an inspiring natural setting. At the end of September 2018, the second annual celebration of life event was held to raise money for the Abbey and Libby Memorial Park, which is estimated to cost roughly $1 million. The families of the girls organize the event, which included a silent auction, performances by local dance teams, and fun activities for all ages. The park will be located just one mile north

of Delphi. It will house baseball fields, softball fields, an amphitheater, picnic shelters, a multi-purpose building, concession stand, public restrooms, two age appropriate playgrounds, and a walking trail around the perimeter of the park facilities. While construction has begun on the park, the project will take quite a while to complete. For more information, you can visit abbey and Libby Memorial Park.org. There's still also a reward in this case for information leading to the arrest of the person or person, responsible for the murders of Abby and Libby. The amount of the award could be as much as $216,000.

And they're still taking donations toward the reward fund. If you'd like to donate to the reward fund, you can make a check payable to the Indiana State Police Alliance Foundation. Just make sure you put Delphi reward on the memo line. All donations can be mailed to the Indiana State Police Alliance Foundation. Police Alliance, 1415 Shelby Street, Indianapolis, Indiana, 46203. To learn more about the case, you can go to abbey and libby.org. That's a site set up by the families to spread awareness. And please, if anyone has information about the murders or the

suspect, please call the Delphi Homicide Tip Line at 844-459-5786. But that's it, Morph. That is the case of the Delphi murders, and it's such a sad and brutal case. And like we mentioned, somewhat surprising that it hasn't been solved, given the information that police have to work with. But again, the information is only so much, right? They need somebody to come forward to say who this person is. And I think hopefully soon that will happen. Yeah, I'm really hoping this is one of the next cases that we,

we see solved in the news. We can't thank Mike and Becky Patty enough for talking with us about the case. Thanks also goes out to Debbie at True Crime Diva for writing and research help for this episode. If you like the show, go out, give us a five-star rating. You can give us a review to if you'd like. Goes a long way towards helping other people find the show. If you want to find us on social media, we're on Twitter with the handle at Criminology Pod, and you can also find us on Facebook by searching for criminology podcast or our Facebook group, which is criminology podcast, Discussion and Fans. That's it.

Morph and I will be back next week with an all-new episode of criminology. So we'll talk to you then. Take care, everyone.