Criminology - The Golden State Killer

Episode Date: June 2, 2018

In this final episode of season 2, we take a look at the background and timeline of the arrested suspect Joseph J. DeAngelo. We have multiple interviews with people who interacted with DeAngelo, one man who worked with him for many years. He sheds insight on the man that he knew and tells stories of DeAngelo through the years. We have a fascinating interview with the Sacramento DA Anne Marie Schubert. And we unveil the long-awaited post-arrest follow-up interview with Paul Holes.   You can help support the show through Patreon https://www.patreon.com/criminology For news about the podcast, old episodes and more, visit our website.  We'd love to connect with listeners on social media. We are available on the following platforms: Facebook - Facebook Discussion group - Instagram - Threads - X Formerly Twitter - Blue Sky - Youtube - Twitch - Tik Tok  Find all of our social media in one place at: https://linktr.ee/criminologypodcast   Criminology is an Emash Digital production hosted by Mike Ferguson and Mike Morford. 

Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. I'd like to welcome everyone to episode 15 of season two of criminology. And more, if it's finally here, episode 15 is going to be the finale of season two. It's been a truly amazing ride. There's been a whole bunch of twists and turns and, developments that, frankly, have thrown us some curveballs. It's not often as a podcaster that you're right in the middle of covering a major case like this

when somebody's arrested for the crime. And on top of that, getting to break the news to the world on social media in the wee hours of the morning was totally worth the lost sleep. At the end of this episode, we have some special thank yous to pass along to some of the people that made the season possible. Before we get into this episode, let's give out some Patreon shoutouts. And these are going to be the last shoutouts of the season. As all of you know, we announced new Patreon supporters in each episode.

But that doesn't mean that you can't support us in between season two and season three. We will definitely make sure to give a Patreon shout out to every new supporter. So we had Lee Taylor, H.J. Davidson, Dina Seigert, Kelly Pruitt, Maney, Maine, Catherine Atkinson, Gary Place, I'm A. Caldwell, Tamara Salter, Al Hachkiss, Claudia Jones, Margo McHugh, DeNora Gollitz, Michelle Humphreys, Julie Ross, Mona Montague, Melinda Varadian. Caitlin Stevens and Sarah Chbata. Now, I know for a fact I messed up some of those names. But to be fair, some of them are pretty hard to pronounce. But if I did mess your name up, apologies, it's not on purpose. I always do my best.

And we say it every episode, but we really mean it. Your support on Patreon means a lot to us. and we really, really want to keep doing a good job and showing you what we can do with your support. So thank you very much. And we've been telling you this season about our Zodiac book that's out now as an e-book, and very soon it'll be out in paperback.

It's based on season one of criminology. You can find it by going to WbP.bc.bz slash Zodiac A. or you can find it on Amazon. And the print version will soon be available as well. The name of the book is Criminology True Crime Podcast Presents the case of the Zodiac Killer. And we can finally announce

that season two of criminology, our complete coverage of the Golden State Killer case, is also going to be a book. People have been asking us if season two would be available as a book. They just can't seem to get enough of this case. So we are releasing it, and you can pre-order it

by visiting WbP.B.BZ slash Golden State Killer A. Again, that's WbP.b.bz slash Golden State Killer A. Or you can find it on Amazon. And the name of the book is Criminology True Crime Podcast Presents the Case of the Golden State Killer. All right, Morf, let's get into this episode, wrapping this season up. Let's do a quick recap of episode 14.

We heard from Debbie Domingo and Michelle Cruz, who both lost loved ones to the original Nightstocker. We also heard just how it was that investigators like Larry Crompton and Paul Holes worked together to connect the East Area Rapist Crimes in Northern California with the original Nightstocker crimes in Southern California. Once the East Area Rapist and the East Area rapist and the original Nightstocker were linked by DNA. This killer then earned the nickname Eron.

So you can see how all of these monikers all over the state of California referred to the same deadly predator. But residents in the state of California, depending on where you went or who you asked, were not aware of this rapist and murder. They only knew him by whatever moniker he had locally where they lived. These multiple names led to a lot of confusion. The late California true crime writer and blogger Michelle McNamara had become obsessed with this case. She was shocked that despite being from California and having her own personal interest in true crime,

she had not heard about this killer until she saw a segment about the case on a TV show. She immersed herself in the case and became obsessed with it. In 2013, Michelle Pindenard, for LA Magazine titled In the Footsteps of a Killer. In that article, she discussed Eron's in great detail. She felt that she needed to rebrand the killer with a moniker that would encompass all of his crimes in California, and she gave him the name, the Golden State Killer.

The name was memorable, and it stuck. Over the past two years or so, through social media campaigns, TV shows, and podcasts, people all over California, and then throughout the country finally learned about this killer, and the horrible details of the 50 rapes and at least 12 murders he committed. The spotlight was finally on this offender, and law enforcement was working hard to identify him. In April 2018, all of that work finally paid off with the arrest of Joseph J. DiAngelo, and we're going to break down as completely as possible his timeline and background.

Joseph James DeAngelo Jr. was born on November 8th, 1945 in Bath, New York, to Joseph J. DeAngelo Sr. and Kathleen DeAngelo. He had three siblings, an older sister, Rebecca, and a younger sister and brother, Constance and John. The DeAngelo family was an Air Force family. and they spent time overseas before returning to the state in the mid-1950s. It has been reported by some news outlets that while he was in Germany, DeAngelo Jr. witnessed his sister being raped by a group of older men. And you just have to wonder, Morph, what, if this is true,

seeing this happen as a young kid, what did it do to his psyche? The DeAngelo family moved out to California, and from 1960 to 1963, we know that they lived at various addresses in Rancho of Cordova on Portsmouth Drive, Abington Way, and Olson Drive. While there were never any East Area rapist attacks on these streets, they're not very far from many of the East Area Rapist attacks. In 1964, Joseph DeAngelo Sr. divorced Kathleen. And he went back to Korea where he remarried. And something that seemed very odd to me

was that it was reported that he had children with his second wife and he named the children that he had with her the same names as his previous children. During the early 1960s, Joseph J.D. Angela Jr. attended elementary school and junior high school in Rancho Cordova. From 1961 to 1963, he attended Folsom High School in Sacramento County. In 1964, DeAngelo dropped out of school and got his GED. In September of 64, DeAngelo joined the Navy, and from October to December of that year, he was stationed in San Diego where he went through training. From 65 to 68, DeAngelo served on two ships. He served on the USS Canberry and the USS Piedmont.

And during this time, he saw some action in Vietnam. It's been reported that he lost a finger or maybe even parts of multiple fingers in action. Now, what's interesting is that his younger brother, John, joined the army in 1969. and in 1971, he lost a finger in action in Vietnam. Now, we haven't been able to 100% verify that DeAngelo lost a finger in action, but we know for sure that his younger brother John did. But that is very strange. Two brothers both losing a finger or possibly parts of fingers in battle.

In February of 1965, DeAngelo's mother Kathleen remarried to a man named Jack Basanko and to Larry County. By 1968, DeAngelo is out of the military and attended college at Sierra College in Rockland, California. Rockland is in Placer County about 20 miles from Sacramento. In May of 1970, an engagement announcement for DiAngelo and his fiancé, Bonnie Colwell, appeared in the Auburn Journal newspaper. The announcement read as follows. Colwell-Dangelo pair announce engagement. Announcement has been made of the engagement of Bonnie Jean Colwell and Joseph James DiAngelo Jr.

No definite date has been set for the wedding. The bride-elect is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Stanley B. Colwell of rural Auburn, and the future bridegroom is the son of Mrs. Jack Bocenco of Auburn. and Joseph J. DeAngelo Sr. of Korea. Ms. Colwell graduated from Del Oro High School and Sierra College, where she is a lab assistant in the science department. She is affiliated with the Life Science Club, the Honor Society, and the president's honor role.

Young DeAngelo is a graduate of Folsom High School and Sierra College. He is employed by Sierra Crane and Hoyst, of Newcastle. He is affiliated with the Vets Club, the AGS, the president's honor roll, and the International Diving Association. There were some really interesting things in that article. The biggest one was the name Bonnie. In multiple East Area rapist attacks, the victims felt that the rapist had mentioned Bonnie or Mommy. The victims recounted how the rapist sobbed in a corner making statements like, I hate you, Mommy, or I hate you Bonnie. But at least one victim was adamant that the Easter rapist said,

Bonnie, not Mommy. We also know from that article that DeAngelo at the time was working for the Sierra Hoist and Crane Company in Newcastle, California, and Placer County. It's also interesting that he was mentioned as being associated with the International Diving Association. As it turned out, Bonnie broke off. the engagement and never married Joseph DeAngelo. Instead, she went on to marry someone else.

And as a result, a lot of people think that in DeAngelo's mind, Bonnie may have driven him to his crimes. Now, obviously, she's not responsible, but he may have thought so in his mind. Investigators are in the process of trying to learn any details from Bonnie to help shed more light on DeAngelo's background. In December of 1970, DeAngelo got an associate's degree in police science. In 1971, he went on to attend college at Sacramento State University, and while there, he obtained a bachelor's degree in criminal justice. From 1972 to 1973, it's reported that DeAngelo did a 32-week internship for the Roseville PD, essentially where he is

playing a ride-along cop after taking his criminal justice course. Roseville is in Placer County about 13 miles from Rancho of Cordova. And during the time that he was there doing the ride-alongs is when the Cordova Catburger was striking in areas of Rancho of Cordova. So it's highly likely that DeAngel could have been the Cordova Caperger as well. Now, this part of the timeline reveals some major clues. In May of 1973, not too long before I was born, Morp, DeAngelo starts a job with the Exeter PD. And this May 23rd, 1973 Exeter Sun News article details that.

And the headline is Joe DiAngelo new Exeter police officer. Joe DeAngelo 27 has joined the Exeter Police Department. Officer DeAngelo began his duties May 19th. His background in police work includes 32 weeks as an intern in the Roseville Police Department. He attended a law enforcement program at Sierra College in Placer County. He earned a BA at the California State University and is continuing postgraduate work in criminal justice under the Honors Program. DeAngelo is making his home in Exeter. He has a sister, Mrs. DeWain Becky Thompson,

living here. He moved here from Citrus Heights, Placer County. He plans to marry Sharon Huddle, also of Citrus Heights, on November 10th. They will make their home in Exeter. Now, one of his duties for the Exeter Police Department was part of the burglary task force. So essentially, Morp, his job is to help curb burglaries. But it's just May of 1973, This same time frame that we're talking about, about 10 miles away in Vysalia, that the Vysalia ransacker crimes began. It's later in 1973 in November that DeAngelo Mary Sharon Huddle, who was mentioned in that article back in Placer County.

This article is from the 1973 Sacramento B. The Auburn First Congregational Church served as a setting for the marriage of Sharon Marie Huddle. and Joseph James DeAngelo, Jr. She is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Clarence and Huddle of Citrus Heights, and his parents are Mrs. Jack Basanko of Garden Grove and Joseph J. DeAngelo of Korea. She is a graduate of San Juan High School and American River College.

Her husband was graduated from Folsom High School and California State University in Sacramento. Honor attendance were Patricia Huddle of Citrus Heights and Larry Schneider of Rancho Cordova. So there's more clues in this article. First, it mentioned that DeAngela's mom is living down in Orange County. It also mentioned who Sharon's parents were and that they lived in Citrus Heights. They were still living there at the same address in 1976 when the East Area rapist attack Jane Carson-Sandler.

And DeAngelo's in-law's house was one mile from Jane Carson-Sandler's. additionally like sandler and her husband de angelo's father and all was in the air force so maybe there's some sort of connection there i reached out to jane but she didn't remember ever meeting de angelo or anyone in his wife's family one final clue in that article was the mention of larry schneider of rancho cordova being an honor attendant schnyder lived very close to dawes and dulcetto close to where many confirmed and sussex expected, East Area Rapist attacks happened. This included the October 1975 attack of a mother and daughter near that intersection. In 1974, DeAngelo was living at an unpublicized address in Vysalia. Being a police officer, it wasn't uncommon for his address and phone number not to be published in the phone book. but it's a Visalia City Directory. So it does seem as if he lived in Vysalia.

His occupation is listed as city police department, but we definitely think this is for the Exeter PD and not the Vysalia PD. So during 1973 and 1974, the Vyssalia Ransacker crimes are in full swing in Vysalia. There were dozens of burglaries. In 1975, things took. turned deadly, and the burglary's turned to murder. In September that year, Beth Snelling was the

victim of an attempted kidnapping, and her father, Claude, tried to come to her defense, but he was shot and killed. Then, three months later, in December, Officer Bill McGowan was shot at by the Ransacker. Luckily, McGowan only received minor injuries, and he was able to give a description of a round baby-faced by Salli Ransacker. A sketch was circulated in the area, and immediately, after dozens of burglaries, the ransacker vanished from Vysalia. We covered all of the Vicerian ransacker incidents in episode five this season. So the VR vanishes from Vysalia in December of 1975, and in 1976, the Angelo takes a job as a police officer with the Auburn PD. And this was just about 20 miles from where the East Area.

rapist would start striking in June of 1976. While DeAngelo is on that police force, the East Area rapist attacks happened all over Northern California. But in July of 1979, DeAngelo is caught stealing dog repellent and a hammer from a hardware store in Sacramento County. It's also been said that he got into some sort of altercation with the store clerk. But what's extremely relevant is that after his arrest, the East Area Rapist Crimes stopped in Northern California.

The next month in August, DeAngelo was officially fired from the Auburn PD. In October, just a month later, the East Area Rapist was attacking in Galita in Santa Barbara County. In December, he murdered Offerman and Manning in Galita. And this is one of the things that is now being investigated. Why was DiAngelo in Galita? In fact, after he was fired from the Auburn PD, his movements are hard to track. We do know that DeAngelo and his wife, using a VA loan, bought their home in Sacramento

County in 1980. In March of 1980, the Smiths were murdered in Ventura. In August of 1980, the Harrington's were murdered in Dana Point. In February of 1981, Manuel Whitcomb was murdered in Irvine. In July of 1981, Sherry Domingo and Greg Sanchez were murdered in Galita. Then in September of 1981, DeAngelo had a life-changing event when his first child was born in Sacramento County. That's something that Profiles predicted might mark an end or a pause in the killer's activities. and they were right.

The Golden State Killer did not kill again for five years. During that time, in 1982, DiAngelo's wife was admitted to the bar to practice law. In May of 1986, Janelle Cruz was murdered in Irvine. Six months later, DeAngelo's second daughter was born in Los Angeles County. After the Cruz murder,

there are no additional murders officially tied to the Golden State Killer. There are several murders in Southern California that have been thrown out there by various people and sources as possibly being connected to the Golden State Killer. And while we don't have time to detail them all, we do want to tell you about a few that are interesting.

Dorothy Jane Scott went missing in May of 1980 in Orange County. She had been receiving taunting calls prior to vanishing and was afraid for her safety. She once found a dead rose on her car. The mysterious caller threatened to cut her in a little bits. She vanished after taking a friend to the UC Irvine Medical Center for treatment. We've mentioned that hospital before,

especially in relation to Golden State Killer victims Keith and Patty Harrington. After she vanished, her parents received taunting calls from somebody that said they killed her. In 1984, her body was discovered by a construction worker in a shallow grave. Mixed in with her remains were the remains of a dog. Because of the taunting phone calls and a history of violence against dogs by the Golden State killer, this case may be worth a closer look. Also of interest, at the time she went missing, Scott was living in Stanton, California. DeAngelo's brother had lived in Stanton at some point as well.

And at the time of her murder, he lived three miles from her parents. Julia Wilkinson, a nurse, was found bludgeoned in her garage. in San Diego in December of 1980. Witnesses saw a suspect around her home and a sketch was generated. Police theorized that she interrupted a prowler or a burglar. Police are also looking into whether or not the Golden State killer may be responsible for a 1978 double murder in Seamy Valley, which is in Ventura County. 24-year-old Rhonda Wick was found brutally beaten and raped and she had been strangled to death with a macrame rope.

Her 4-year-old son was also found dead in the home with a pillow over his head. Rhonda's boyfriend was convicted of the murders and sentenced to life without parole, but he has always denied killing Rhonda and her son. Recently, DNA evidence found at the scene was examined and found not to match him. He was released from prison after almost 40 years. Police are examining the DNA evidence and they plan to compare it to DeAngelo's to see if that is a match. Again, the timeline of DeAngelo during the 1980s and his movements are puzzling, and investigators will be digging hard to see what they can find.

One thing we know for sure is that DeAngelo had family all over Southern California and that he and his wife may have lived down there for a stretch, perhaps with her parents. DeAngelo did have relatives in the 1980s that lived in the middle of the two-mile section of Irvine between the Whittoon and Cruz murders. So it will be interesting to see how the dots connect. In May of 1989, DeAngelo's third daughter was born in Sacramento County. and in August of that year, DeAngelo started working at the Save Mart in Roseville, where he worked up until 2017 when he retired. In 1991, it appears as if DeAngelo and his wife separated,

but they never officially divorced. And there has been a lot of speculation around this. Some people have theorized that they may have remained married, due to the fact that one spouse cannot be compelled to testify against the other in court. It's been widely reported that she has not cooperated with police since DeAngelo was arrested in April. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer.

For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until New technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020, blood and water. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. We've talked about DNA being DeAngelo's downfall, and investigators in the Golden State Killer case always felt that DNA would nail him. They monitor DNA databases and continued to look for possible connections to the Golden State Killer. They uploaded the Golden State Killer's DNA into Jedmatch, a public DNA database, and found multiple distant relatives.

From near, his days were numbered. A forensic genealogist tracked several generations of family members until they found DeAngelo. Although he was a bit older than most estimates, they felt they had their guy. They retrieved an item discarded by DeAngel in public and tested it for DNA. It matched the Golden State Killer perfectly. Police put together a plan to take down DeAngelo. They knew he was dangerous and they wanted to take him alive. On April 24th, in the early evening hours,

a team of specialized tactical officers from the FBI and Sacramento County staked out DeAngelo's Citrus Heights home. He came out of his house and an undercover officer walked up to DeAngelo in his yard pretending to be lost. DeAngelo apparently became confrontational, but the tactical team rushed him and they took him into custody. As they loaded him in the car,

DeAngelo said, but I've got to roast in the oven as if he were in complete shot. Sorry, Mor if I couldn't help but laugh. I'm just imagining this guy who is being arrested for some of the most heinous sexual assaults and murders in history saying,

but I've got a roast in the oven. It just cracks me up. Now, it has been reported that one of DeAngelo's daughters was inside the home. And apparently all of this happened so quickly, she didn't immediately realize that he was gone. Unknown to anyone, police questioned DeAngelo, hours. So the days after the arrest were obviously very hectic, but police didn't waste any time charging DeAngelo. He was charged with the Ventura murders of the Smith, as well as the

Majori murders. Then the Domino's started to fall. And he was charged with the Galita murders of Greg Sanchez and Cherry Domingo, as well as those of Doctors Offerman and May Finally, he was charged with the murders of Janelle Cruz, Manuela Witthune, and Keith and Patty Harrington. So 12 murder charges and all. And we can't forget that Claude Snellan from Vysalia is likely a Golden State killer victim as well. But as of yet, DeAngelo has not been charged in his murder. The Angelo has made multiple court appearances, but it remains to be seen if he will enter a plea or try to avoid a trial. it's also unclear what if anything he has admitted to.

Cameras for at least one court appearance were barred from the courtroom. And as public defenders trying to keep details of the warrants used to arrest DeAngelo sealed, the press is going to fight to have those warrants unsealed because they want to know details. And so do we. In the wake of the news coverage of this case, we were contacted by a woman who claims to have done housework for DeAngelo in the 90s. She stated that she had been to DeAngelo's house on three different occasions. She asked us not to reveal her name, but she recounted for us her experience with DeAngelo working inside his home,

as well as her reaction to finding out that he was accused of these heinous crimes. And then May 90s, I got a job as a housekeeper. I'm not saying that we just came back from Germany because he was in the airport. we came back to California and the first job that I actually I guess, excuse me, actually I got a restaurant job and I didn't care for it and then I said well I like housekeeping so I'll give it a try

so I want to go ahead and start to be looking for a job and I ended up working for a company called Mary Mae I'm not 100% sure if he was through that company that I ended up meeting him or if he was through my business that I had a small company, you know, with my name and it and I say housekeeping services. I wish I can remember that, but I can because it's a long time ago. But I know 100% that I was in his house.

Give me a sec. The whole thing is very upsetting because the stuff that I saw, the way that he behaved towards me, I had a lot of customers and nobody ever behaved so rude and so mean and a condescending. and arrogant and just grumpy, bitter old men, demanding, very particular in the way that I clean everything. And I was surprised that he needed a housekeeper because his house wasn't really that, you know, that dirty or anything like all the houses. It was a very light housekeeping. And I remember the first two times that we went there, it was another girl was with me. I think her name was Maria.

And he was always moody. It was never, I can never see a smile on his face. say thank you or anything so we just want to you know every time we go to his house it's two times too we're like oh no we're going back to mr vangelo's you know the grumpy old man that's what we used to call him we used to make fun of him sometimes because he was like I mean why is strong with that guy you know he saw it look like he's swallowed a lemon or something anyway um the third time and I think it was I don't know maybe summer I'm not going to I said, good morning, Mr. Daniel.

How are you today? And he just like, oh, you know, give me a grump or whatever. And I started, you know, working, doing whatever I need to do. And you get to see a lot of stuff that you don't want. So I noticed that he was holding pretty much a bunch of newspapers. I don't know, it was Sacramento, N.D. or something else. It was newspapers from the local area. Yeah, I do remember seeing a headline.

and somebody, you know, somebody being rape or murder or something goes like that. And I have a very stomach and I just move alone and I didn't pay attention. And there was like a little cave on the living room and I saw some ladies during, maybe some necklaces and rings and hurricanes. And, you know, I thought it was weird because I thought he was maybe a weirer or was divorced because I never saw, I never saw any, you know, ladies' shoes or ladies' clothes, you know, anything like that, that, that, that I remember, honestly. I didn't pay attention to that, that. Yeah, I tried because, you know, he was grumpy and I tried to make a conversation with him.

I felt very uncomfortable, and I saw a picture of him where he was a police officer, maybe, I don't know, his early years or whatever. and I said, oh, oh, I didn't know you were a police officer or something that I asked, and he's like, oh, you Mexicans, you say, you asked too many questions, and he was really grumpy. And I said, oh, I apologize. And I continued to do something, you know, he was right behind me, just kept staring on me. And I say, you know, I was so uncomfortable. Nobody, ever the house that I ever went to clean, nobody will behave like that. And he was just that day, he was just the grumpy as ever.

and I can figure it out why, and now I know why. And it's just a scared thing to me that I continued to go as fast as I could, and I moved to the kitchen. And when I went to the kitchen, he followed me, and he was staring at me, give me goody looks, and I was kind of wondering, you know, what's going on with him, and I said, wow, I couldn't figure it out. I was scared to death. I don't know what was going on with him.

I see him walking back and forth, back and forth, and like he was nervous or something. And I just, I just continued to, I wanted to knock the floor real quick and get out of there. Finally, he said, I think you're dying here. You better go now. Very high tone and, you know, mad at me and like, okay, you know, I felt relief. When I left, I got in my car. I got the cow out of there.

And I went home and I told my husband and said, well, if you're sure you want to continue to do during the job, I found like if you have really your customers, something like that. And I never looked back. I didn't make anything other. I just thought he was weird. He was rude. And there was something, you know, something wrong with him that I couldn't pinpoint. I couldn't, you know, and I just let go.

People were weeks, and I saw him on the kid. I literally threw up. I got sick on my stomach. I recognized his safe. Yeah. I never forget he's safe. pretty tall guy I'm only five foot three I was like maybe 35 55 now and uh me look you know I remember that why he would have taken me down or anything it would hurt me and you

would have killed me proud because it was pretty it was pretty big guy he looked like he wasn't skinny or anything he looked like he maybe wore a cow or something and I know he I know I see him before cutting his glowing everything in you know he's a white teacher or whatever I can believe when I saw him. And I had to go to the bathroom. I took. I said, oh, my God, the rings that I saw. Those ribs, naturally, he belonged to people.

They killed. And I think I didn't fucking you to it. I don't know how to deal with it. I just feel sick to my stomach. I can say, oh, my God, what about those five dollars that he gave me? It was something that he kept, you know, he took from somebody. And the jewelry that I saw, especially there's a ring. They caught my attention.

It was very pretty. Just a red stone in a gold ring, a small ring, a lady's ring. It was right on top of everything. And maybe he was going through his stones. I don't know. And I caught him in a bad man and he wanted me out of the house as soon as, you know, I didn't finish the work that I was supposed to do. And remembering that I talked to a lady, I don't know, maybe she was in her 40s or something.

this tall lady, like light brown hair, very sweet lady. I can't remember her name. I wish I can find her. I don't know if that was one of his deepest, I can say that. But a couple of months before, I remember going to her house doing the same thing. And what it struck me was that somebody told me, I don't remember who told me to be careful what I say around her because she went through a horrible thing in her life in the 80s or something like that,

that she was attacking her home and then the man that attacker cut her. And I couldn't stop. You know, I didn't want to stare at her chest, but I saw that he had a scar. And I was, you know, I was very overwhelming. I say, I'm so sorry you went through that. it's just you know like I say I feel like in a twilight phone right now because I don't know what to make of this I don't know how to deal with it maybe he didn't like me because of my skin color I don't know maybe he was thinking to do something to me I can tell you you have to ask him God knows what I was going through his mind he he asked me he said I think he'll leave and I say okay sir I say I was out of it I never went back We also talk with Jeff Smith, who worked with Joseph DeAngelo for over 20 years at the Save Mart.

My name is Jeff Smith. I've worked at Save Mart for 22 years. And Joe has worked there longer than me. He was actually there when the establishment first was built. And I believe, and I don't know for sure, I believe he was hired close to 1990. That's about six years prior to me. And my interaction with Joe was more of a not a personal level, but more of a work level. Every time I would come into the facility with my truck, he was there. You know, if I had a problem, the facility is set up to where the fuel island is separate from the main facility. So we would go down there and fuel our trucks and the mechanics would be down there.

And there was about, I would guess, 10 mechanics at any given time. And so he was one of many and I think he was probably it's all a seniority deal there. They're all unions. So he was probably one of the higher seniority guys, which was a little bit strange because he liked to work nights. Usually when guys reach a top seniority, they have their choice of shifts. And Joe always liked to work nights. And so that was my interaction with him when I would go down, come off my shift. I would go down there with the equipment malfunction.

and he would write it up and describe to him what the problem was, and he would fix it. And as far as mechanics go, he was actually one of the top mechanics. He was very good at his job, very detailed. One thing I realized about Joe is he didn't like to make mistakes. And when I say that, what caught me is odd years ago, when drivers move trailers around in the yard, every once in a while, a trailer would get dropped off the back.

back of the machine that we used them off, call it a goat, and it would get dropped off it. And he was one of the guys, this would happen periodically, you know, once a year or something like that. It's a pretty bad accident because it does, it creates quite a bit of damage to the trailer. And he would, he did that one time. I recall him doing that. And when a guy does that, they usually will be, will slow down. They'll do what they need to do, but they'll slow down.

Joe, after he did it, he would actually. hook up the trailer and then he would get out and he would walk around and he would manually lock in the trailer. I would see him walking around and get underneath the trailer. And at that point, I thought, that's a little bit odd. I've never seen anybody do that. But I was just thinking that, you know, he didn't like to make mistakes. And I realized that at that time that there was, you know, he was very meticulous. But anyways, he would, as far as mechanics, he was, like I say, one of the top ones. and he's very good at it.

And my interaction was primarily professional. Every once in a while, when I would go down to the fuel island, he would come out and when you're fuel in the trucks, it takes quite a while, and he would come out and we'd talk a little bit as I do all the other mechanics. And I can recall back in the day, there's a lake by here called Folsom Lake, and we got into a conversation about fishing. and that was that was his deal he loved to fish and we were talking about how low the lake was and how he wasn't going to have the opportunity to get out there and fish how fishing was very poor

that year this was a couple years ago when we had the drought and so we got into a conversation then about that and I was talking to him about fishing and you know I'm not a big fisherman the boat I have as a speedboat that's why I wasn't our conversation was we weren't getting each other think. And one of the things that surprises me about this whole incident is that he's labeled as highly intelligent. And I would have labeled him, if you would have asked me before this whole incident, I would have labeled him as kind of nerdy and not that bright. And I know a few of my friends that I've talked to. I've got a real close buddy that works there. And we talk quite often. We've mentioned Joe quite a few times. And it's never been real, real good. I don't know how else to say it.

You know, we didn't, we didn't talk snack about him, but it wasn't, you know, Joe's a great guy. He was always real quiet. And like I say, he liked to work nights. And I can recall walking by the shop when he was one of the only mechanics in there and just hearing him yell, hearing him scream. And he would do that a lot when he was alone. Like he would be mad at himself for doing something, not necessarily yelling at somebody else, but yelling himself. And he would just, with all the doors down, and it's a cement building, so you've got to yell pretty loud to hear that from the outside. And he would be using some pretty foul language and just in there yelling.

And, you know, that was always a joke that we had. Hey, Joe's at it again. Joe's out there yelling. But as far as personal interaction, that's pretty much all I've had with him throughout the years is professional. my wife worked in the office there. And so she would see him come in and, you know, punch in and punch out. And she always regarded him as just an elderly gentleman, because my wife's quite

younger. And she would, you know, a nice old man is how she put it. You know, he would say hi, but he would never carry on a big conversation with her. You know, how's your day, that type of stuff. And that was about it. And when this whole thing happened, it was funny. I'm very familiar with the East Area Rapists. I'm from this area all my life.

And it always fascinated me how they never caught the East Area Rapist. And so one of the first things I do in the morning, I get up and I hit Google and find all the top events and that kind of stuff. And it said the Golden State Killer. And I didn't know what that was. And I clicked on it and read about it and realized then that the Golden State Killer was the same person as the East Area Rapist. And I had text my wife and told her, hey, they caught the guy.

It's pretty fascinating. It's been years, and we watch a lot of true crime stories and that kind of stuff. And so I text my mother and told her, hey, they caught this guy, you know, and she was, actually, because we've been around here for quite some time. And so anyways, throughout the day, about 10 o'clock in morning, my phone starts just going crazy. And it was the guy from working, hey, did you hear that they caught that guy? Did you hear the news? Yeah, they caught the East Aer rapist.

And it's no, did you hear it was Joe? No, come on. And we went back and forth for a good hour or two. You know, is it Joe? Is it not Joe? And then another mechanic had piped up and said, I had been to his house. And they showed the picture of the house on TV. And he said, that's him.

You know, and they said his name. And we were thinking, now they just got a wrong name. But anyways, it was him. And, you know, we were all in shock. You know, that can't be Joe. But nobody would suspect that, suspect Joe. You can't say looking back on it. Okay.

that makes sense now because it really doesn't make sense. There was nothing that led to us thinking that Joe was a dangerous individual. So a lot of friends of mine, very close friends of mine were, they would go out with him periodically going fishing, starting years back, about 15 years ago, a friend of mine that I used to go water skiing with had a boat and he would go water skiing with Joe when, because Joe would work night. So he had the days off. So he was available at that time, and they'd go water skiing together. And then more recently, some close friends of mine have told me that they went fishing with him. And one of my friends told me that Joe was really, I guess you'd call it ADD. Everything had to be in a specific place, a specific time.

Everything was just neat. He went over to his house, and he was real proud of this boat that he just bought. He bought this brand new fishing boat. And he was telling my buddy how this thing, you can't sink. this thing. There's nothing you can do to sink this thing. And, you know, he piped off and said, yeah, that's what they said about the Titanic. But anyways, he went out fishing with him and he, and he thought it was odd because he took his tackle box and Joe just looked at him like, what are you going to do at that? He said, well, you know, I was going to decide to hear it.

That's okay, you know, and Joe kind of, well, yeah, okay. And then he went out fishing and in the middle of fishing, he asked him, he said, so if you, if you catch a fish, you're not going to put it in my boat, right? He said, not even over the edge or nothing. thing. He's a catch and release only, but he wouldn't even put the fish in the boat had to be unhooked over the side because he didn't want any of the fish guts or any of that kind of stuff in his boat. And then my buddy was telling me that he, you know, would eat sunflower seeds. He would rip-wipped out of sunflower seeds, and Joe told him he didn't want his sunflower seeds in the boat because the salt would affect his boat. So he just put the sunflower seeds away. You know, he got kind of a

creepy feeling that we're not out just good old boys fishing. You know, this is, this is real kind of awkward, and that's the only time he went out with him because he said he felt kind of awkward. It wasn't a fun event because everything had to be in a place and time and that kind of stuff. One interesting thing, looking back on it, is my friend has a concealed weapons permit, and he leaned over to unhook his fish, and his gun showed. He was carrying at that time.

and Joe asked him, I say, he noticed his gun, got a gun, yeah. And he asked him to see it. And so my friend handed him his gun, which is nothing at the time. You don't think any of it, but looking back on it now, you just think, I just handed this killer by gun. You know, that's why I carry a gun and I just handed it to him, you know. So I don't know, it's nothing at the time, but looking back on it's kind of interesting. And he was telling him that after the trip that he went back to his house. and Joe gave him the tour of his house.

And everything he did on his house was overdone. For example, he built a really nice awning, I guess, off the side of his house. And, you know, most people would use like a four by four posts. Well, Joe used a six by six. You know, it was just overdone and very nice, you know, spared no limits to what he did around his house. His lawn was manicured. The whole house was just immacquished.

And one of the interesting things, he told him to walk him outside and showed him this shed that he had. It was a tough shed. And he had converted that shed to a, I would call it a fort for his granddaughter. And in the fort, he said he had, you know, a bed and a TV and all the things that a granddaughter would think is pretty cool to just hang out out there. And then he started to explain to my friend. He was, hey, hey, check this out. This is Joe telling my friend. And he said, hey, you know, look at this.

And you see those windows out there? He said those windows, I took them out and I replaced them with a special kind of window. He said, that window, if you try to break it or crawl through it, it won't shatter. It'll create sharp edges. And so it'll cut you up if you come through it. And then he showed them the door and he removed the standard door and put a super secure door on there with dead bolts and extra security. And my thought was, you know, he wasn't thinking at the time, but afterwards you're thinking, okay, Joe knew what kind of animal was out there, and he was protecting his granddaughter

from people like himself, you know, which is kind of odd. And he was actually pretty financially set working so long, and he had lived in that same house for quite some time, I believe, over 20 years. So he had his house paid off. He had retirement set, and so I think he retired, I want to say about February, something like that. And there was no part for him. A lot of times when the guy retires from the facility, they'll throw a big party. And I just recall Joe just disappearing. And, you know, a month or two later, I hadn't seen him for a while. Hey, where's Joe at? No, no, he retired. And he retired fairly, I want to say well off. And I do recall hearing in the news that he was worth, you know, upwards of a million dollars, which would

probably account for his whole value. I'm assuming his house is paid off and that kind of stuff. I don't think he had a million dollars cash playing around but who knows but anyways he retired comfortably and just the other day I was in the yard and I was a group of guys were talking and we were talking his name came up and in fact that's another thing about his name you know when you talk about killers or that kind of stuff people will say their full name and it may not sound like anything but to me he's Joe he's just Joe you know when you talk about all these other people we'll say all three names. It's always a common thing where they use their middle name and last name and that.

But he's just Joe to me. And we were talking the other day, and there was another gentleman that had actually had him up to his house for some barbecues and gone fishing with them and things like that. And we're talking. And I said, well, I was talking to another friend of mine. He interrupted us and said, hey, how about the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. And I kind of looked at him and I thought, you know, I agree with that. I'm all for that. And, you know, I'll be the first one to say that somebody's innocent until you actually do prove

them guilty. But with Joe, they actually have so much evidence and so much DNA. It's been going on for so many years that they just had to match the DNA up to the individual. And so I did tell him that. And I said, hey, you know, that's what I explained to him. And he, And I think it's because he was a friend of his. He still hasn't processed that Joe is guilty, that Joe has done these heinous things. When you have somebody over at your house, I suppose, and they're eating your food, you're laughing with him, you're joking with them, having a few beers with them. And then you have to turn around and picture that this guy is just a heinous killer. It would be very hard to process, I would imagine.

And, you know, someone that was a little more distant, such as myself, I can accept it a little easier. I still have a hard time knowing that, you know, I dealt with this guy on a daily basis. And picturing the thing that he did, I have a hard time accepting that. But it is fact, and I believe they got the right guy. I don't believe that, you know, he didn't, back in the day when he was doing it, he didn't, DNA wasn't an issue. So he didn't hold back on that. So they've got them as far as I'm concerned.

Another friend of mine was telling me that she lives in Auburn and she lived very close to this guy. She's telling me, and I don't know, you know, how this is from her, she's telling me that when his picture came up when he was an Auburn police officer, that she swears, she got all excited. She swears he is the Auburn police officer. police officer that poisoned her dog. She said that she had interactions with this guy because he was a neighbor and he was very angry person, which describes yelling in the shop and I've seen some interviews where neighbors were saying that he would yell at them when you walk by and things like that. So he was an angry neighbor, probably not the ideal neighbor to live next to.

And she swears that they had issues with the dog barking and he, one day the dog was dead. and she swears that he's the one that poisoned it. She knew that back in the day. And when his picture came up now, she swears it was him. Other than that, he was always decent to me when I would talk to him. He never, never got angry with me. As far as being physically fit, I know the pictures show him in the courthouse as a very feeble old man in the wheelchair.

Now the other day he came in the courthouse in the carthouse. occasion he was standing. But that's not the Joe that I knew. Joe was not a feeble old man. He was very, I would say strong, working on, working on, we're talking about big rigs here. So he was working on on the big rigs underneath them and that kind of stuff. And there was never a time when I thought that he was, you know, seeing, seeing him aching or in pain or or he wouldn't come out like a lot of other people do. You know, oh, man, I just, you know, my back hurts or my leg hurts or something like that. He would never do that. And so it was quite surprising to see him in that wheelchair.

As far as getting real close and even the people that I know that knew him well, their stories they tell nothing about family. They don't say anything. The only thing I heard was that he did mention to another driver, a friend of mine, that he was never divorced. Obviously, this case is big news nationwide, but in California, it's huge. We talked to Fox 40 Sacramento reporter Ali Wolf, who discussed with us some of the challenges for her in covering this case.

And she also filled us in on the search for answers in Sacramento. Hi, I'm Ali Wolf. I'm a reporter at Fox 40 in Sacramento and also host and produce a podcast. called Exposed the East Area Rapist. It's definitely been a circus and definitely the biggest case of my career. Personally, I started covering it back in 2016 when the FBI and the Sheriff's Department all gathered to announce the $50,000 reward in the case. So pretty much been following it ever since then.

So to see this happen and the arrest was shocking and it's been an incredible experience. Like you, we've been talking to the victims and being here in Sacramento. the fact that Joseph DiAngelo, the suspected East Dairy Rapist, Golden State Killer, was here all along, I think, for people in Sacramento, that came as a huge shock. For people who've lived in Sacramento long enough, they remember the time that the East Area rapist was out on the loose, and they just described a time of fear when people were trying to protect themselves, losing that sense of safety. and, you know, it was very real for a lot of people.

And so now that it's happened this way where the arrest happened in Sacramento and he was caught here and is now in court here, I think people are just extremely interested in the case. I think there's, like I said, sense of shock and also relief that someone's in custody because while present day, you know, 42 years later, there's not that sense of fear anymore. it's still, people knew that this guy was never caught. And so it's a really cool thing to see.

And I think we've noticed here in Sacramento just such a nationwide interest in this case and people trying to hang on to any detail they can get. So we've learned some stuff just by talking to neighbors. We've spoken to former co-workers of Joseph DiAngelo. We also talked to a man who, like I said, a man who lived or worked with him for years and years in Roseville, which is near his home. We even spoke to a waitress who served him, and she said he was a regular for two years.

So I have some interesting info I can get into from each of them, but just these little details, everything that comes out has been very interesting. And, of course, what we've seen in court has also been kind of interesting as well, just from those short hearings that have happened. You know, all those murder charges coming from 10 different counties, I think all the DAs are trying to get things in order, so we know that all the DAs from the different counties, Sacramento, and every county Ventura, you know, all the counties that there are murder cases,

they're all going to be meeting, and it's unknown even if the trial will take place in Sacramento. And so all these initial hearings have been really short. There have been some requests from media outlets to have access to some of the arrest warrants and the search warrants. So what we've seen so far is just short hearings that last a couple of minutes. So we haven't even gotten into the meat of this case yet because it's so big. I think I heard someone say that this might be the biggest trial in California history. So we're really, really in the beginning of it all.

The family has not been talking. I have not seen any local media here or really much national media speak to the family. And I think that the reason is because, you know, you look at what DeAngelo is accused of and these horrific crimes. And we've heard that DeAngelo, one of his daughters, one of the neighbors told us that one of DeAngelo's daughters lived with him at the time and even his granddaughter, who was a teenager. So the way we're kind of treating it is that they might be sort of victims in this, too, if they had no idea.

And so we're being a little sensitive with that, and we don't want to bombard them. We have tried to speak with them, but as of now, no real interviews with DeAngelo's estranged wife or daughters, but we're just trying to be respectful because, you know, we have no idea what they're going through and, you know, what was going on behind closed doors in that household. Well, we talked a bit earlier about DNA in this case and how it played a role in the case being solved, We also talked earlier this season about Proposition 69, the California law that requires felons to give their DNA, but that the law didn't go in effect until 2004. The Golden State Killer case is a great example of why that law is so great.

And in fact, if the law was enforced 10 years earlier, DeAngelo would have likely already been identified much earlier. DeAngelo's brother had a felony arrest in the 1990s before Proposition 69, went into effect. Had the law been in place and worked as it was designed to, his DNA would have been uploaded to a central law enforcement database and it would have been matched as a familial hit to his brother's DNA. And no doubt this case would have been solved much sooner. So that's just a little bit of food for thought about the importance of this law in the state of California. who talked a lot about DNA in episode 14,

had a big hand in solving this case using DNA. Our first interview with Paul was done about 10 weeks before we retired. We were able to catch up with Paul just recently after the arrest, and here's what he had to say following his retirement. I can't say that I've actually been able to enjoy retirement. It's been probably busier than I've ever been in my life after the press conference announcing Joe DiAngelo, Joe DiAngelo as the Golden State killer.

But it's been all good. You know, I'm enjoying every minute of it. It's a little stressful in terms of trying to figure out, you know, what the next days of my life is. But, you know, I'm going to take advantage of the opportunity. There's a lot of media attention on the case. And so every day I've got 10 to 15 calls coming in from the media asking for, you know, either prolonged interviews or short five-minute hits, as they call. in the industry is it's a lingo that I'm quickly learning.

But I also have law enforcement agencies hitting me up, asking for help on their cases. And I actually prioritize them. I want to make sure that if they have cases that could benefit from the technology that we use to catch the Golden State Killer, I want to pass that knowledge base on. Paul was a late addition to the CrimeCon lineup, and we wanted to ask him about his experience there. I had no idea what I was walking into at CrimeCon. I had registered for CrimeCon about a month prior to the date that it started. And that was at the urging of Jane Carson and Debbie Domingo. We had been out in New York for the Megan Kelly Show and at dinner one night, they said,

you should go. They were going to have a booth. They wanted some support on the panel. And I agreed, okay, that seemed like a good thing. I wasn't sure I'd be able to afford it, but I would look into it. And then coming back and looking at it, I thought, you know, for retirement purposes and just going out there to possibly, you know, start a consulting business, you know, to help both law enforcement and the media out. It would be a good business opportunity. So I went ahead and bit the bullet and decided to pay my own way out there.

And I went out there, you know, as for leading up and ultimately Joe DeAngelo was taken into custody, I didn't think I was going to be out there. I thought this is going to bleed over. I'm going to have to cancel going out to CrimeCon. But then we had the press conference and everything kind of settled down for me on the investigation side. So I went ahead and got out to Nashville and did not expect the type of reception. the amount of recognition that I was getting, which was very overwhelming, it was very humbling. It was such a nice feeling to have so many people just genuinely feel happy about what had happened in the last few days. I know from my perspective, I was completely oblivious to how many people had actually watched some of these shows that had interviewed me for the Golden State Killings.

series. So, you know, for me, I was just a guy that, you know, had lived my entire life, sort of, you know, being in the shadows, never being out there, really in the public eye. And to show up at the hotel and have people who I had never met before in my life just recognize me, I've never experienced that. I never expected to experience that. But it was really a neat experience at the same time. I was, I was, I was, I was, tired. It was exhausting. I was having, I was staying at a different hotel off-site, Ubering back and forth, you know, early mornings, late nights. But it was all good. You know, I enjoyed meeting all

those people. I appreciated the sincerity of, you know, their gratitude for the work that I had done on the case. Yeah, and I think a lot of ways it was, it was really for me to get that attention. It just happened to be the stars aligned. You know, TV shows had come out on the case. Michelle McNamara's book had come out in the case within the last month or two months. And then we go and announce and solve the case. And then two days later, three days later, I'm out in Nashville.

So it was just this weird snowball effect. And so everybody there was aware of the Golden State Killer and was aware of who I was just because of the TV shows in Michelle McNamara's book. We asked Paul to share with us a little about the work he did with the DNA database, Jedmatch, that led to the suspect in the case, Joseph DiAngelo. Well, you know, there really isn't a way to sit there and watch the databases to see it. There's a relative.

You know, the big issue with exploiting that type of technology is first generating the type of DNA profile that is compatible to search the databases. And, you know, there's been times over the years, you know, I had been looking at, well, how can I, you know, search ancestry to look for Ancestry.com to look for relatives of the Golden State Killer or 23 and Me or My Heritage, you know, these various genealogy databases. And what you have to understand is, is that law enforcement crime labs do not produce a DNA profile that is compatible with that type of genealogy search. And the genealogy laboratories do not work with law enforcement to produce that type of profile, nor do they necessarily have the capability to work with forensic samples. A lot of people, I think a lot of people out there don't realize is the type of evidence we're dealing with. When we talk about, well, we've got DNA from the Golden State Killer,

Well, what we've got is we've got a swab that was typically collected from the female victim that has the female's DNA and the offender's DNA mixed. That's a problem. If you were to take that sample and send it into a typical genealogy lab, they want to know what to do with it because they don't know how to separate out the male DNA from the female DNA. So the big hurdle was, is trying to find DNA evidence in our case in which we could adequately separate the male DNA from the female DNA. We had enough of the DNA to be able to use this technology on and have a lab that would generate a genealogy type profile. There was multiple steps that were needed in order to get to that point. And so that was what I was working on. I started working on that probably April or May of last year in terms of identifying a suitable sample.

I had consumed all the DNA and the Contra Costa County East Area rapist cases years ago pursuing what's called the YSTR technology. You know, that's the paternal DNA. It's inherited from father to son through the generations. And so six years ago, I was pursuing that genealogy work, and I had consumed all the DNA I had in my possession in order to get a good, extended 67 marker profile for the East Area Rampist. But then now I'm looking at this new autosomal DNA technology that all the genealogy companies are now using,

such as Ancestry and 23 and me, and I didn't have the DNA. So now I had to convince somebody down in Southern California where they still had Golden State Killer DNA to basically allow me to take some of that valuable DNA and generate this genealogy profile to search the genealogy databases. That is the big hurdle, and that's what took so long. You know, public people from the public calling up and say, you know, me and my wife were watching a show and we both turned to each other and said, oh, they should just search Ancestry.com. It's not that easy when you are dealing with a forensic sample. But once we got to where we could generate a genealogy compatible DNA profile, then it was, well, let's, what databases are we going to search?

And the obvious one was the open source public-facing database GEDmatch. And that's what we did. I uploaded it into Jedmatch. I got a list of relatives, and then we started doing traditional genealogy to try to figure out if we could ultimately land on who the Golden State Killer was from that list. The way it works is that, you know, it's not like the FBI's CODA system, where you're uploading the offender's DNA and you get a hit, a one-to-one hit. This is a genealogy match.

So what you're doing is you're uploading the profile and the genealogy website is searching for the people that share the most amount of DNA. So some people would share, let's say, you know, a hundred. There's a unit of measurement called centamorgans, 100 centamorgans of DNA with your offender's DNA. and then there's another person that shares 95 cent of mortgans, and there's another person that shares 65 cent of mortgans, and it goes down in diminishing amounts, and the smaller the amount of DNA the person shares, the more distantly they relate it they are.

So for those of your listeners out there, if they've ever done their DNA through ancestry, all of a sudden they're just getting peppered once they get the results back, and you've got, you know, you've got, you know, 20 third cousins and you've got 100 fourth cousins and you've got 5,000, you know, fifth cousins. So when you get the results back out of Jedmatch, searching the Golden State Killer's DNA, what we got was a list of individuals that the best match that we got was on the order of a third cousin. And we had roughly 15 to 20 third cousin level matches before we started dropping down into the

lower level, a fourth cousin, or worse. So that's what we had to start with. There wasn't just a person. It was multiple people that were very, very distantly related. They're so distantly related. They don't even know that the person that's a relative DNA-wise, as Joe DeAngelo, even exists. We got down, and I'll say just roughly a handful of individuals, of males that kind of checked to the boxes of having, being the right age that were living in California in the 1970s, but only two were close enough to Sacramento. There was this one other individual that we focused on first, who's had two uncles that lived right in the heart of Cordova Meadows in 1975, 1976, where the East Area

rapist first started attacking. And because of that connection, and one of those uncles ultimately moved to Stockton and bought a house from the company that employed the second Stockton victim, that particular person that we were looking at rose to the top of the pile because there was a geographic connection with that person, their relatives, and what we knew about the the Golden State Killer. But ultimately, we were able to eliminate that person, and that person has no idea they were even looked at as, you know, maybe being associated with the Golden State Killer case.

That's when we focused on DeAngelo, because he did have the Auburn connection. He was close enough. He was a little bit older than what most people thought, but we thought, well, he's at least in the Sacramento Reefat. at the right timeframe and we knew that he attended Folsom High School back in 1962 so it appeared that his family was down in the Rancho Cordova area because those that were in Rancho Cordova were bused to Folsom High School during that time frame that we thought we need to start looking at him and that's

when I started reaching out and talking to people who knew him and that as we got more information, that's when he became much more interesting. You heard Paul mentioned talking to people that knew DeAngelo, and we asked him about the challenge of reaching out to people to investigate him, but doing it in a way that would not tip him off. Well, that's part of the investigative strategy. You know, you have to assess the relationship of the person you want to talk to and DiAngelo what it was back in the day and then what it is today. And for example, you know, everybody is aware of this Bonnie.

You know, we had a newspaper article that we found early on. DeAngelo had been engaged to a Bonnie back in 1970. And then, of course, if there's an engagement, then you'd expect to see a marriage license and, you know, possibly children and everything else. But there was nothing. There was no indication that that couple had ever been married. you start investigating who Bonnie is and you start seeing that she's remarried and has been married for a long time and obviously there's no shared children with DiAngelo.

You know, the chances that that Bonnie and this Joe DiAngelo today, after 40, more than 40 years from that engagement, the chances of them being friendly with each other and in constant community, is low. It's not impossible, but it's low. So you have to roll the dice. And so I did. I rolled the dice, and I ended up calling Bonnie, left her a message, and unfortunately, she was out of the country, and she never heard my message. But on the other side, you know, his wife, Sharon, you start looking at that relationship, and you recognize that, oh, they have three children together, there's no divorce on record. You have one child that is living with him and two children that are living with her. There's a friendly, potential friendly relationship there. And there is no

marriage. They were still married on paper. There was no relationships in between the time that you see the separation to the current date and then you back away. I never contacted Sharon because of my fear that those two were still talking to each other. So it really is you have to assess the circumstances back 40 years ago to the current day in order to determine how you want to approach somebody. And that's what I did. And, you know, when I found that he was an Auburn PD officer, the logical thing is to call up Auburn PD and say,

hey, do you have any personnel records? And then one thing led to another. And next thing I know, I'm talking to the former chief of police. who fired DeAngelo. And then talking to him, he goes, oh, I remember him well. I was his sergeant when he was in patrol. And he told me all sorts of stuff that just notched DeAngelo up as being a much more interesting person as the Golden State killer suspect than what we knew previously.

We asked Paul if he knew whether DeAngelo's ex-fiancee Bonnie or is a strange wife have been cooperative with police. you know the only thing i can say to that is that they have been contacted and spoken with but i can't relay any information as to what they have said we wanted to know if paul had any interaction with de angelo personally before the arrest the closest that i came is you know the last day before i retired i drove up and parked in front of his house and that was he was interesting enough where I needed to start doing what I typically do when I have what I call a prime suspect, where I start really digging into somebody. And so I went, I wanted to see where he was living, you know, see if I could see him out,

you know, in the yard or what was going on around his house. But I didn't have enough. I wasn't thinking he's the guy at the time. He was just an interesting individual. And even considered that, you know, I should probably. just go up and knock on this guy's door. You know, what's the likelihood that he is really the Golden State killer? You know, you get so jaded after having so many prime suspects being eliminated by DNA, you know,

you almost let your guard down. And that's that's kind of what I did. I really got to a point where I thought I was going to go and just saying, you know, what I've done many times, hey, you know, this is who I am. You know, I'm looking into an old case. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? And once I establish a rapport with the person, do you mind if? If, you know, I get your DNA sample.

That way, you know, once you're eliminated, you don't have to worry about anybody, you know, ever contacting you again on this case. And most people readily agree to providing a DNA sample. But I backed away from that because I realized I just didn't know enough at that point in time. It was too early. I thought, you know, I might be pressing. I'm going to be retiring in a day. I don't want to, you know, just let the fact that. that my job was ending was going to just, you know, cause me to make a rash decision.

And that's when I, you know, put the car and drive and drove away. At that time and day, I just drove straight home. And, you know, during the drive, I am, you know, just beating myself up going, you know, maybe I should just go talk to that guy. Maybe not, you know, I can help the investigation if I get his DNA because then we could see are we closer from the genealogy standpoint? with the angelo, and then we knew, then we would know that we were, you know, in the right family branch of the genealogy work.

And I thought, you know, I should do that, but, you know, just never turn the car around to go get that done. And, you know, in retrospect, that that really turned out to be the right decision. Even though I retired the small team, we had a handful of guys and women, that were helping us. You had Steve Kramer and Melissa Parasote out of FBI Orange County, Kirk Campbell and Monica Tchaikowski out of Sack DeA's office, myself and then an external expert who has opted not to have their name

out in the public domain at this point in time. This team, we knew we were close at this point. And so fortunately, the guys that were still active embraced me, as a retiree to basically it was a seamless transition. You know, my email address, you know, change from a Contra Costa County.org type email address to a gmail.m.com email address, but we were still emailing back and forth like nothing had changed. We were still talking to each other on the phone like nothing had changed. So my role really did not change, even though I just was not going down to Martinez, California,

and sitting in my, you know, district attorney's office, I was sitting at home or I was actually out of state trying to buy a house in the state that we're moving to and talking to them on the phone and continuing to move forward with the strategy. I was never in the interview room with him. The way things worked out is he was brought in Sacramento Sheriff's Homicide Detective Ken Clark was the primary interview. of him initially. Ken and I were supposed to go in and talk to him about the Central Valley and East Bay, East Area rapist attacks before Southern California agencies who had homicides were to take

their turn. And I can't get into specifics, but the way that the interview worked out and how he responded, basically we had to skip the sexual assaults in Northern California that couldn't be prosecuted to get the investigators with homicides in there sooner than later. So I did not get a chance to sit in the same room at DeAngelo and talk to him. But I watched through the monitor seven hours of him being interviewed. So I do have a good feel on how. he responded to the various people that were talking to him and how he answered, or I should say

didn't answer for the most part, any of the questions that they were asking him. To my knowledge, he has not admitted to anything. We asked Paul how surprised he was personally that DeAngelo was a father, a grandfather, and the next cop. I wouldn't say any of that was surprising. The fact that he was a law enforcement officer, it's not surprising, though I will say that when I was evaluating the case, you know, this guy being a law enforcement officer was something that would come up from time to time over the course of, you know, the 1970s to the current day. And I took the position that, you know, this guy is an intelligent. offender. He is somebody that would naturally do some of the things that we are seeing because he's all

about self-preservation. It doesn't mean he has law enforcement training. Now we know DeAngelo was a law enforcement officer. Then, of course, now you see, okay, this guy did have law enforcement training, and he capitalized on that training to do the things that he was doing. But he was doing other things that you generally don't learn in law enforcement. Again, speaks to DiAngelo as a sophisticated and an intelligent offender who also learned from his mistakes. And he adjusted his MO to suit the situation and continuously improved upon his abilities to avoid capture. Paul had been on record as thinking the Vaisalia Ransacker, and he East Area rapists were likely not the same person. We wanted to see if his opinion had changed.

With Visalia Ransacker, I took the position that I did not think that the East Area Rampus and the Vysalia Ransacker were the same person. Now, I'm not surprised that they were, and I do think after, you know, circumstantially that, you know, De Ancelo is likely the Vyselia Ransacker, though it still needs to be proven. But I do think that that's what it's looking. like. And it's not, it's not surprising. It's more of how, how did he change his physical appearance and his skill sets and even his behaviors in those six months from when he shot Officer McGowan to when he's showing up and becoming the East Area rapist. And this is where from evaluating the series, and this is getting into that academic mode, what you're looking at, again, it speaks

to this guy's intelligence. He's recognizing his faults as the Visalia Ransacker. He was not good at getting inside houses. He often would try or attempt to pry multiple windows and multiple doors before getting in. He was not good at staying hidden. Multiple people in that town saw him. what turns out to be spot-on composites were generated. When he leaves Visalia, he recognizes he made mistakes. And now he is modifying his skill sets. He is modifying his MO. And he's even modifying his behaviors with the victims in order to prevent his mistakes from

Visalia from occurring again. So it is very interesting to watch. the evolution of an intelligent offender who does have elevated skill sets as a result of his law enforcement training and how he adjusts in order to be able to continue to offend, to continue to satisfy those compulsions that he had. You would think the average person with the scares down in Visalia would say, I'm done. They got too close to me and they wouldn't continue. Well, he just got better as a result because he wanted to continue. Well, I do believe that he purposely physically transformed himself.

Again, he was seen as by Celia Ransacker, and he is described as, you know, kind of this heavier set, rounded shoulder, thick hip, thick thigh, thick, cat, you know, had thick calves, short fat feet, you know, very pudgy, round face to all of a sudden having a slim, athletic build six months later. I was thinking, well, maybe, you know, maybe he went to the academy where he's doing a lot of physical fitness. He's burning a lot of calories. But at least as of right now, with the records that I've seen, that's not the case.

He did the academy way back in 1974. And when he transfers up to Auburn PD, he's just taking classroom training. He's not actually doing any physical training. So I believe that he recognized that he had been seen a composite showing him how he looked heavier was out there and he decided I've got to lose weight in order to help hide my identity. In addition, he takes additional steps. He's making sure he always has a ski mask on. He's making sure he's blinding his victims with a flashlight. And even with taking those two steps, when he's inside the house dealing with the victims,

he's telling them, don't look at me or I'll kill you, even though he's got a ski mask on. So he is taking it many steps down the road of preserving his identity because he knows that he sucked at preserving his identity as the Vysalia Ransacker. We asked Paul if he still thought that the homework evidence that was attributed to, to the East Area rapist actually could be linked to DeAngelo. At this point in time, I still think it's possibly related, though my confidence is not as high as it used to be. I do, you know, I was inside DeAngelo's house and walked through his house, and I saw numerous examples of his writing. I even saw a hand-drawn diagram that he had generated. and after observing that, I walked away going,

okay, I can see enough overlap between what was present in his house and the homework evidence where I think it's still in play. We don't know enough about DeAngelo at this point in time. He most certainly is going through school. The homework evidence, the two essays appear to be school. assignments. So I'm very interested to see, you know, what coursework besides criminal justice did he take when he was in at Sierra College or when he was at SAC State. The hand-drawn diagram, I think, is a bit more perplexing. And I've said that I see

evidence that there's a collaboration between two people with what's going on in the markings in that homework evidence. It's possible that you have another individual that is drawing that diagram and is talking to DeAngelo about that. But I don't know. It's speculation at this time. Did he take drafting or landscape architecture at Sierra College or SAC State? And this was merely a homework assignment. The experts that I put to that diagram in front of are pointing out industry-specific symbols that generally practitioners

would use, not something that you would learn in a classroom. So that's where I've always leaned towards. This is somebody who's actually out at the job site. What's really resonated with me since DeAngelo was identified is I had a guy online who had been in law enforcement for 45 years say, hey, back in the day, we used to moonlight as security guards on construction job sites in order to make a little bit more money because we weren't paid very good back in the day. And when you look at the prevalence of where this guy is attacking, especially after he moves out of Sacramento, you know, when he gets into Stockton, when he's in Davis, even Modesto and out in the East Bay and conquered, even down in Danville, Fremont, in San Jose, he is attacking either.

in or immediately adjacent to active construction. And so when I see that pattern, and that's where a job site security guard makes sense to me. Now, why would a security guard have that hand-drawn diagram? I can't really answer that at this point in time. And so I'm really interested to find out, is there a reason for him to have drawn that himself, either through classroom training or through maybe, you know,

interactions with people who were in the development building industry, or was I spinning my wheels following a red herring for several years, you know, diving down on that diagram? I just don't know at this point. We wanted to know if the reality of DeAngelo being identified had sunk in for Paul yet. You know, I am starting to feel the, I'm feeling good that the case is solved. it's still, there's still sort of an uneasy feeling because I have so many unanswered questions about who this guy was and I want those questions answered just in my mind so I can better understand this offender and how he committed these crimes.

But, you know, another part of it is I have been so busy since we announced the, you know, DeAngelo as a Golden State killer, I still to this day haven't really been able to just sit back, push away, and start contemplating the magnitude of the closure to this case. And we definitely wanted to get Paul's take on DeAngelo's first quarter appearance. Yeah, that was all an act. We know, you know, he was under surveillance for a week. and he was directly observed to be very physically capable, very physically mobile. He was riding a motorcycle at high rates of speed down the freeway.

He's moving around his house. He is doing mechanical work on his daughter's car and making trips to an auto parts store. He is getting around. The guys that directly observed him, he was under surveillance, were saying, this guy does not move around like a 72-year-old. He's moving around like a 50-year-old. So seeing him get wheeled into court in a wheelchair, to me, you know, it was a bunch of BS. I saw his wheel spinning sitting in that interview room and him starting to implement a strategy.

This guy is a tactician, and he was all about self-preservation when he was out there committing his attacks. and now that he's caught, once the shock of, oh my God, they caught me, wore off, he is now in that mode of how can I minimize the impact to me of being in this situation. And I believe that wheelchair and kind of being a feeble old man was he was trying to get sympathy from the court and setting up a strategy for a defense down the road. He is thinking ahead in doing that. We went on to discuss a variety of things Paul had in the works, including possible TV and book projects.

And we even had a bit of fun talking about his love of rock music and playing guitar. But there was just so much material in Paul's interviews, we couldn't fit it on to the podcast. But if you want to follow Paul and see what he's working on next, you can find him on Twitter with the handle at Paul Holes. And you hit the nail on the head, morph, and not in just talking about Paul's interviews, but all of the interviews from this season.

We have so much material from all of these different interviews that there was really just no way to get it all onto the podcast. But we're not going to let all of that material go to waste. So we plan on putting it on our Patreon feed for our Patreon supporters, starting in June. So it was great to hear from Paul Holes, just one of the good guys working on this case

that deserved the win. So hats off to him and the rest of the task force. Debbie Domingo and Michelle Cruz are as excited as Paul Holes to see D'Angelo face-to-face in a court of law. But the cost of going to court in California to see D'Angelo's trial is staggering. And while they very much want to see D'Angelo

face justice, doing so might be financially difficult for them. So I've decided to see, start a GoFundMe campaign to raise funds to send them to California for a trial when and if that occurs. I'm hoping that you can give a dollar or two or whatever you're able to help with for this very good cause. And if this trial does not happen, if there's a plea deal or if God forbid DeAngel should die before trial, your donations will be split up and donated to two worthwhile causes, Citizens Against Homicide, and the Joyful Heart Foundation. To visit my GoFundMe for Debbie and Michelle,

go to www.govundme.com backslash golden state killer. We reached out to Sacramento County District Attorney Anne-Marie Schubert before Joseph DeAngelo was arrested. She was able to give us a bit of insight about how the prosecution against the Golden State Killer might go once he was arrested. Good morning. It's Anne-Marie Schubert, and I'm the district attorney of Sacramento County. Clearly, he's responsible for a dozen murders, and many of those murders are connected by DNA. So those crimes span, you know, several jurisdictions. So there would be several jurisdictions, you know, if he's caught, when he's caught, he's still alive and all those kinds of things.

He could be prosecuted for the murders. The rapes, as everybody knows, the individual is responsible for upwards of 50 rapes in Northern California. the rapes would be barred by the statute of limitations. Now, that doesn't mean that those crimes would not be admissible in a courtroom because they would be, you know, likely to be used to show his, his, MO and his, you know, his intent and all those kinds of things. But my honest answer would be that, you know, there's several jurisdictions that have murder cases, including Orange County, Santa Barbara County,

Ventura County. Sacramento has a double, but that is not connected by DNA. So, you know, when the person's caught, if he's alive, then the decision would have to be made by, presumably, the various elected DAs on which is the most appropriate jurisdiction to proceed. We asked D.A. Schubert, how would be decided which jurisdictions would prosecute? That's a factor. Another factor would be how many murders occurred in that jurisdiction. So, you know, there's a number of different things, and can you prosecute them all in the same jurisdiction? You know, can you prosecute all 12 in one jurisdiction? So those are a variety of different questions that have to be answered.

But, I mean, obviously the ones that, the counties that have the ones that are connected by DNA and probably the highest volume would be prime considerations. DNA Schubert explains some of the details about the relatively short statute of limitations. You're going to test my knowledge of the law of 76, but what I can tell you is that it was probably no more than six years at the time because it's probably even less. It's quite fascinating actually to look back in history at kind of what happened as a result of these rapes in Sacramento. It's funny because we've pulled all the news footage from that time period in the hopes that maybe it would give us some tip or something. And at the time in 1976, at least based upon the news footage, was that rape was not even a crime that would mandate state prison. And so there was a lot of protesting by women at that time basically saying, you know, we should, we deserve, you know, that these individuals should be sent to prison if they're apprehended.

So basically protect rape victims. But setting that aside, the law now in California is far different in terms of prosecuting. sexual assault cases. And, you know, essentially, if you have DNA on a rape case, there's virtually no statute of limitations anymore, assuming you follow certain rules. But, you know, the rights that people have now with respect to prosecuting those types of crimes are far broader than they were at the time of 1976. And that just is a testament to how we've evolved as a society to make sure that, one, we protect people's rights, but two, that we are able to apprehend people for crimes that they committed even long ago.

She went on to talk about the potential things that they have to consider in a prosecution against the Golden State killer after he was arrested. I spent many, many years doing cold cases. And, you know, cold cases present their own challenges in many ways because time has elapsed, but you put it in front of a jury, and a jury is going to judge you based upon today's kind of standards, which is very different. You know, it's all kind of a CSI standard nowadays. But, you know, we have to put an old case in front of a jury.

So, you know, not talking about this case in particular, but, you know, like on a cold case murder that we might have had where we have DNA, you know, a rape murder of, let's say it's a woman that gets raped and murdered question. So then you get a hit on it and you match it to somebody. So then you start going through those questions, okay, is he from that neighborhood? Why would he have contact with that victim? What is his prior history? Is he, you know, is he from Sacramento?

What would, I mean, for instance, we had a double up here, a very famous case called the sweetheart murders where a guy, two young college kids from UC Davis were kidnapped and horribly murdered. And ultimately, that individual was apprehended through DNA. And so it was the same kinds of questions you're asking is why were their bodies dumped in this area? Did he have a reason to be in that area? you know, what connection did he have to Sacramento? And in that particular case, you know, his brother happened to live within a mile of where these bodies were dumped. So as a DA or an investigator, you're always trying to figure out what is the reason for, you know, where the crime occurred, where their bodies were found, you know, and just building the same kind of investigative, you know, information that you would on another case.

But understanding that, the crime is 40 years old. So sometimes that's harder. It's much more difficult, you know, to find information from 1976. So you get a hit today, and let's say you get a hit today, and it's to John Smith. And so then we're saying, okay, well, does John Smith have a connection to Sacramento? Does he have a connection to Orange County or Ventura County or Santa Barbara? Why was he there? What kind of jobs did he have?

Those kinds of things that would help us try to answer those questions. We wanted to know specifically if there were any crimes associated with the rapes that could still be prosecuted, such as any kidnapping charges. It could be kidnapped for purposes of rape. But you have to, again, I mean, what I learned about cold cases is you are bound by the law that existed at the time. So I'd have to go pull my 1976 penal code and say, was kidnapped for purposes of rape a crime at that time? If it was a crime, what was the statute of limitations? So it gets interesting. And sometimes it's, you know, at the end of the day, for this particular case,

because he's connected to so many murders, I don't want to say that the rapes don't matter. They very much matter. But our goal is to prosecute the individual and make sure that they are never able to hurt anybody again. And so all of those crimes matter. But there's no question where there's sufficient number of crimes to make sure he's going to be held accountable. D.A. Schubert was able to be able to be able to. to tell us what kind of sentence the East Area rapist might face if he had committed those rapes in the present day?

That could be a lifetime now because we, but that's all, I mean, a lot of that has come over time through various ballot initiatives that were passed by voters to kind of get tough on sex offenders. So in 1994, if my memory is right, California passed a what's called a one strike for sex offenders. So if you committed a sex crime with certain kind of circumstances, if you put, you. broken to a house, committed a residential burglary for the purpose of committing a rape, you can get life. But again, that was 94. So we have very tough laws since then, but the question is what it existed in 76 of the time. So that's what we have to look at. I mean, this case

obviously spanned four decades, and there's been tremendous amount of effort and renewed efforts over time to solve it. And there's a lot of very, very dedicated folks, law enforcement, and non-law enforcement that, you know, want it solved. And my philosophy has always been about this case. It may be that it's a needle in a haystack, but the needle's there somewhere. And we need everybody possible to help us find that needle. And it may be law enforcement. It may be somebody that, you know, just happens to know about the case and suddenly finds out that,

oh, they have some strange, you know, jewelry in their Uncle Bob's, you know, possession. and they don't understand why, but it's just being vigilant and being informed that might ultimately lead to that tip that identifies this person. I mean, I say this often. The answer's out there. It's just a matter of our persistence in finding it. This season has been a long one filled with lots of details, and we've done our best to cover the case as completely and as precisely as we could.

But we realized that there were still a lot of questions out there and perhaps some confusing parts that we needed to go over. So we invited listeners to call in leave a voicemail with their unanswered questions. And we got a bunch of them. We've got so many that we may need to do a bonus episode a few weeks from now playing the voicemails where Morph and I try to answer all these questions. But we have to give a big thanks to all of our guests this season that agreed to come on criminology to share their part of this story in an effort to see the East Area Rapist Golden State Killer brought to justice. Morif, I really think that the interviews that we were able to do added a lot to this season. You're right, Mike, it definitely did. And that's something

we heard time and time again from listeners that were just enthralled with what these people had to say. So I think you're right. I think that added an important aspect to this season. So big thanks to the investigators, police officers, past and present. We had Carol Daly, Richard Shelby, Larry Crompton, Ken Clark, Tom Spivey, Ray Biondi, and Paul Holtz. And also big thanks as well to Sacramento District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert. Of course, we also have to thank the victims, survivors, and thrivers that opened up and shared their personal stories of heartache with us. Jane Carson Sandler, Margaret Wardlow, Michelle Martin, Debbie Domingo, Michelle Cruz, Ken Smith, and Jennifer Smith.

Also, big thanks to some of the witnesses, Carl Nol. Lerrer, and Mr. Haskell, who shared what they saw with us. Thanks also goes out to Keith Camos and Kat Winners for their support in the Bicelyer Ransacker episode this season and to Allie Wolf on Fox 40. And a very special thank you to my friend Hutch, who's a rock star in their own right, and who I owe a bunch of lattes to for their help and support. And of course, thanks to all of our listeners who stuck with us through the long season. And more, if we talked about it at the very beginning of the season, that the entire season would be dedicated to the victims of the East Area Rapist, original Nightstalker, Golden State Killer, and we want to reiterate that.

And we dedicate this season to Brian and Katie Majori, Robert Offerman, and Deborah Manning, Lyman and Charlene Smith and Keith and Patty Harrington To Manuela Withhune, Sherry Domingo, and Greg Sanchez, and to Janelle Cruz. And I think it's time we officially include Claude Snelling and Vysalia as well as the 50 or more rape victims. This season is dedicated to all of you. Now, just because season two of criminology is ending,

it doesn't mean that the show is ending. Morph and I will start working on season three. If you like the show, please take a minute if you haven't already. Go out, rate and review the show on iTunes or whatever app you listen to the podcast on. If you want to find Criminology on social media, you can find us on Twitter with the handle Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by searching Criminology Podcast. And if you want to join the podcast discussion group, you can find us by searching Criminology podcast discussion and fans.

I'll be doing some side projects and podcasts. So be sure to follow me on Twitter at True Crime Guy for news and updates. And I haven't talked about it in a while, Morp, but I mean, a lot of people listening to Criminology know that I also do true crime all the time and true crime all the time unsolved. But we've gained a lot of new listeners. So I'm going to throw it out there. If you haven't checked those two podcasts out, give them a try.

And as we leave you, we'd like to tell you about some other great true crime podcasts. The first is Murderish with our friend Jamie. Hey, everyone. I'm Jamie and I host a podcast called Murderish, which takes you inside stories of murder and other creepy events. The first episode of Murderish lets listeners be a fly on the wall for a first-degree murder. trial. The story is told from a juror's perspective as I was that juror. If you are a true crime junkie and need to know every detail, you'll feel right at home with this podcast. Follow murderish on Twitter at Murderish Pod and on Facebook at Murderish podcast. And don't worry,

this doesn't mean you're a murderer. It just means you're murder-ish. And if you have not listened to Minds of Madness yet, this is one that you definitely, need to put on your list. Tyler and Beck do an amazing job. What could an all-American dad, a university professor and a taxi driver

all possibly have in common? You can find out by listening to the minds of madness. A true crime podcast where we uncover the series of events, the circumstances, and the state of mind, which cause ordinary people to do

unthinkable things. The Minds of Madness is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, and all other major podcast apps. Subscribe today. And finally, if you still need to soak in more about the Golden State Killer, and frankly, who doesn't, definitely check out Ali Wolf's podcast exposed the East Area Rapist. You know, this guy was the boogeyman. Everything that you think of in a horror film was this guy. I'm Ali Wolf from Fox 40 News in Sacramento. We produced a podcast on the East Area Rapist Golden State Killer.

We use our resources on the ground here in Northern California to bring you an emotional, detailed, and unique perspective into the case. From the beginning. Survivors share their stories. It was the fear of what he was going to do next. Investigators break down the chilling details. She hears them pacing back and forth, and she hears them saying, I'm going to kill him. I'm going to kill him this time. I'm going to kill him. Here why they were hopeful and confident they'd catch this notorious killer.

Exposed. The East Area Rapist is available now on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. You can also find it on Fox40.com slash exposed.