Criminology - The Miyazawa Family Murders

Episode Date: July 21, 2024

In December 2000, one of Japan's most infamous unsolved cases happened. Four members for the Miyazawa family were murdered inside their home. It was an especially brutal series of murders that occurre...d with other family members living on the other side of a shared duplex.  Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the Miyazawa family murders. There was a mountain of evidence left behind at the scene of the murders. The authorities had the killer's fingerprints, DNA, and even some of his clothing that had been left behind. But, almost 25 years later, we're still left with more questions than answers in the case. Who killed the Miyazawa family and why? You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology   An Emash Digital production

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Starting point is 00:00:36 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 317 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Mr. Morford. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing good. How you don't? I'm doing pretty good.
Starting point is 00:01:18 It's been a pretty strange week for me, actually. My wife suffered a concussion. Had to call 911. It was a whole thing. She tripped and fell in. into the hutch in our dining room and, you know, basically knocked herself out. She passed out. My daughter and I were holding her until 9-1-1 got there or EMS.
Starting point is 00:01:43 Wow, that's scary. She's doing better now. Yeah, she's doing better now. They ran all the tests and everything came up negative. So they just kind of said she has a concussion and, you know, take it easy. But she's still not feeling 100%. You know, those concussions are. can be pretty debilitating.
Starting point is 00:02:00 Yeah, my son's starting football right now. So we were just talking about concussions the other day. So hopefully she's feeling better soon. Yeah, yeah, she is. But we've been trying to take care of her. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Joy Alexander and Abigail. So some great new support.
Starting point is 00:02:18 We really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to support the show. It really helps us out. And for anyone else that would like to, you can do so by going to patreon.com slash criminology. more if it's kind of hard to believe because we just went to crime con. But it is time to start thinking about the next crime con. And it's going to be another big one, this time in Denver, Colorado.
Starting point is 00:02:41 Yeah, it's happening September 5th through 7th, 2025 at the Gaylord Rockies Resort and Convention Center. So there's plenty of time for you to make your plans and head out to the Rockies to send the biggest and best true crime convention in the world. Of course, you and I plan to be on podcast row. And we'd like to offer our listeners or promo code to save some money on their standard badges. Yeah, to get that discount, just head over to crimecon.com and grab your badges. And when you check out, use our promo code, criminology.
Starting point is 00:03:10 That will save you 10% on the standard badge. It should be a lot of fun. And we hope to see you there, of course. And we'll plan our annual meetup there. There's a lot of time to make plans. So that's what's good about it being scheduled so far out. All right. Now that we have all that out of the way, let's jump into this episode.
Starting point is 00:03:26 Boy, do we have a big one? Not only is this the first case we've covered from Japan, but it's one of the most perplexing cases in that country's history. It's a case that has multiple victims and some of the most abundant evidence possible left behind at the crime scene, but still somehow almost 24 years later, the case remains unsolved. They have the killer's DNA, clothing, and hair. They know what the killer ate before the murders, but they don't know who the killer is. or why these murders occurred. We're talking about the December 2000 Mia Zawa family murders. The Mia Zawa family were from the Seda Gaya Award of Tokyo.
Starting point is 00:04:08 In 2000, 44-year-old Mikhail Miazawa and his wife, 41-year-old Yasuko, lived in one half of a duplex with their two young children, their daughter, 8-year-old Nina, and their son, 6-year-old Ray. Yizuco's mother, Heruko, and sometimes her sister, brother-in-law, and their teenage son lived in the other half. Yasuko, a tutor, would teach students in Heruka's home when her sister, Anne, and her immediate family weren't there, while Mikkiah worked long hours and sometimes traveled for his job at an international marketing firm.
Starting point is 00:04:42 From the outside, the duplex looked like one large home, but there was no connecting door inside. They shared a wall, but they were two fully separate units. Each side had been soundproofed by McKeio to provide a little more privacy and quiet. The house was right next to Soshigaya Park. With the back wall just feet from the park's perimeter fence, the Miyazawa's had lived there since 1990 when they bought the home. Back then, there were 200 other homes in the neighborhood.
Starting point is 00:05:16 But by 2000, only the Miyazawa's, Yasuko's relatives, and two other families live there. due to plans to expand the park. The neighbors had all sold their property to the city. Though their family was one of the last ones left, the Mia Zawas weren't staying for long. It was definitely time for the family to have more space. When they moved into the home, it was just Mikio and Yusuko.
Starting point is 00:05:43 But now it was a family of four, living in a home with only one actual bedroom. The family planned to move into a brand new house in March 2001. They had already entered into an agreement to sell their home to the city, but Yusuko was nervous about how the children would adjust to the move. So they weren't in a real rush to move. They finally found the right property to build homes for the whole family, both the Miyazawa's and Yusuko families to live in. Sadly, they never got the chance to complete this move. Just after 10.30 a.m. on the morning of December 31, 2000, Yusuka's mom, who was,
Starting point is 00:06:23 Ruko rang the doorbell of the Mia Zawa home. No one had been answering her phone calls, and no one came to the door to greet her either. She decided to use the spare key that she had to let herself in, and as soon as she walked inside, she was greeted with a terrible sight. At the bottom of the stairs to the second floor, she found McKeio, lying in a pool of blood. In shock, she headed up the stairs, and on the second floor, Ray was dead in his bed. At the bottom of the foldable stairs connecting the attic to the second floor, Nina and Yusuko were also lying lifeless in a large puddle of blood. It was a nightmare, something no one ever wants to be the one to discover or experience.
Starting point is 00:07:04 Terrified, Heroku ran from the home to get help. Police were called in at 10.56 a.m. Yusuko's brother-in-law was the one to make the call. Family members could be heard crying and screaming in the background before he finally gave up. on explaining to the dispatcher what had happened. In the end, he shouted that police just needed to get there fast. Investigators responding to the scene were greeted with the truly gruesome crime scene. There was blood everywhere.
Starting point is 00:07:34 And it appeared at first glance that at least three of the four family members had been stabbed to death. But very early on, police were hopeful that this crime could be solved because there was plenty of evidence, including several things that they thought to kill or left. This included blood, saliva, fingerprints, shoe prints, various belongings, and even feces. So there was evidence all throughout the house, and the killer had left their DNA. Police work quickly to put together a timeline of the crime. The police timeline went as follows. McKeel was alive and using his computer on the first floor at 10.38 p.m.
Starting point is 00:08:15 Because he had to enter a password to open the work-related document that he was working on. one that he had received via email. The rest of the family were all dressed for bed when they were found the next morning. McKeio had not yet changed out of his clothes and into his pajamas, so police felt that everything was normal in the home around 10.30. Now while everything seemed to be okay at 10.30, one possible ear witness that was walking in the park behind the home later told police that they heard an argument of some kind
Starting point is 00:08:43 coming from the Miazala's home around 10 p.m. According to the witness, it wasn't screaming or a struggle. just an unclear verbal argument. It's possible this was Yuzuko and Mikio arguing, but this was before he opened the emails on his computer. So even if they did have some kind of disagreement, it may not have had anything to do with the murders. As far as their family members living next door
Starting point is 00:09:07 in the other part of the duplex, they didn't hear any kind of argument that night, but they did hear what sounded like thuds. These thuds were heard by multiple family members between 11 and 1130 p.m. They were certain that they had come from behind the shared wall. They couldn't add much more, though, in the way of details. And remember, these walls had been soundproofed.
Starting point is 00:09:33 So that may be why they couldn't hear more of what unfolded that night. Investigators tried to replicate the thuds for witnesses, and they learned that the staircase to the third floor, which was more of a ladder. that folded up into the ceiling had been what made the banging sound. The noise that had been heard around 11 p.m. was the stairs being opened or closed. To unfold the stairs,
Starting point is 00:10:01 you need to pull them down from the ceiling and then unfold the ladder in two parts. The three thuds would match up with that, but we don't know for sure whether they were being folded or unfolded, just that they were being accessed. And more of I think many listeners out there probably have attics and have similar type folding stairs that lead into the attic. I know we have a set here.
Starting point is 00:10:27 Another good representation would be Christmas vacation, right? Where Clark is accessing the attic and he pulls down the folding stairs. Yeah, I think they're, I think they're pretty common. And due to a very small space on the second floor landing, the ladder was very much in the way of the bathroom and the stairs when it was left down. For reasons that we'll get into it very shortly, it's likely that the noise was from the stairs being closed by the suspect, so he could move freely in the home. The killer slamming the
Starting point is 00:10:59 stair shut carelessly could also explain why it was so loud. If the stairs always made that noise, you would think the family next door would be familiar with that noise after living in the home for a decade. But on this night, even with the soundproof barrier, the sound had penetrated the shared wall. It's around the time the banging was heard that the authorities believe the murders occurred. No screams or sounds of a struggle were reported, only the sound of the stairs. Police believe that less than an hour after McKeough opened his work email, someone was attacking him and his family. Right around the same time, as this banging was heard through the shared wall, one woman claims to have seen a man running from the Mia Zawa's neighborhood.
Starting point is 00:11:41 She couldn't be sure of an exact time, but felt it was generally around that time. Yet another witness would later recall seeing a different man, quickly walking down the path near the Mia Zawa home. It's unlikely that the man running from the neighborhood was the killer because police believed the killer was just starting the attack on the Mia Zawa family around the time the man was seen. But police felt that the man seen walking quickly down the path near the Miazala home could have been the killer, looking for a way to enter the home. Next, police tried to figure out how did the killer get into the home. The door to the home was locked, and McKeio was on the first floor, awake when the attack happened. While there was no clear sign of
Starting point is 00:12:26 forced entry, there was no evidence that McKeio had invited the killer into the home either. Bloody shoe prints were found on the stairs. Anyone who had been willingly allowed in the front door would have been asked to take off their shoes. There was a designated place to put them right near the doorway. It was common practice for visitors to the home to remove their shoes as soon as they entered. Of course, someone coming into the house to commit multiple murders likely wouldn't be overly concerned with taking their shoes off. There was the possibility that the killer entered the home through an upstairs window. The home's bathroom is on the landing. Below the second floor at the back of the home, the small window overlooks the park, which has a perimeter fence line with
Starting point is 00:13:08 trees. It's believed by some that the suspect could have possibly climbed a tree or used the fence to climb up onto an electrical box attached to the home and stood on that to access the bathroom window. Most investigators have doubts that the trees were large enough for this to work and also felt that the bathroom window was too small for someone to have used. Others, however, point out that the grate or screen for that window had been removed and left outside the home, which certainly seems to suggest that it actually could have been the point of entry. There were shoe prints in the mud under the window, but no dirt or debris in the small window frame.
Starting point is 00:13:52 A reenactment has proven that climbing the fence is possible without climbing a tree, and that the bathroom window is possible to access and squeeze through, though it would be a tight fit. And it did make some noise. Using a second floor window to enter the home would line up with a timeline, which suggests that McKeo wasn't the first one killed, and that his son Ray was actually killed first. there was no blood on Ray's body, which would have been nearly impossible if he had been the last victim. It appears that he was asleep when the suspect began the attack, because he was found in his bed. Ray's official cause of death was found to be strangulation.
Starting point is 00:14:28 If the killer snuck in and quietly strangled Ray first, it would explain why he had no blood on him and the rest of the family wouldn't have heard it happen. From there, the killer could attack the rest of the family. There are some theories that Ray was the target and the rest of the family was collateral damage. once the killer was discovered inside the home. But Ray was only six years old. Who would have the motive to break into a home just to kill a child? The Miyazawa home had an interesting layout.
Starting point is 00:14:55 The children's room over the garage was the only other room on this landing level with the bathroom. It's a two-story home, but there are technically two sets of stairs. The second story of the home is split level. It seems more likely that the layout of the home is what caused Ray, be the first victim. Assuming the killer used the bathroom to enter the home, once they exited the bathroom, he would have seen a few steps up to the kitchen and living room as well as the stairs down to the first floor directly in front of him, the ladder up to the attic on his left, or the room Ray was sleeping in on the same level of the home to his right. There was also another second
Starting point is 00:15:38 floor window that could have been used, and it could still explain how Ray would be killed first. The children's room had a small balcony and a very large window. It's not clear whether it has a sliding glass door, but with the balcony, it would make sense that there's some kind of access there. With a car parked in the driveway, it may have been possible for someone to use it to climb onto the balcony and use that window. It's possible that Ray was awakened when the killer entered his room and was quickly strangled so he couldn't make any noise. But there's no way to know if he was awake or asleep when he was killed. Most reports state that police theorized that McKeo was attacked directly after Ray was killed, maybe due to hearing some kind of commotion and going upstairs to investigate, but from looking at all
Starting point is 00:16:22 the evidence, that doesn't seem likely. Nina and Yusuko were both attacked in the attic. Like Ray, it appeared they had been in bed when the suspect struck. However, for some reason, the attacker did not strangle them. He used a sashimi knife that he used a sashimi knife that he brought with him to stab them, but it didn't kill them. This knife was also the one used to kill Makia, and it actually broke during the struggle. A second knife, a Santoku knife from the Miyazawa's kitchen, was used to kill Nina and Yusuko. The versions that have Mikio being attacked second, assume that the killer first attacked Nina and Yusuka. With the broken sashimi knife, these sources may have had access to more information about the injuries than we do, but it doesn't
Starting point is 00:17:13 seem like McKeio had to have been attacked second necessarily. The most common theory of the sequence of events at night is that the suspect entered on the second floor and found Ray first, regardless of which window was used to gain entry. Then, maybe expecting everyone to be asleep since it was so late at night, they climbed the foldable stairs up to the attic and attacked Nina and Yasuko who were asleep. Thinking they had been killed, the suspect went back down to the second floor. At this point, it's very likely Mikio heard a commotion or unusual noises. No matter what alerted him, it's believed that as he went upstairs to check, he encountered the killer. Caught off guard, McKeo was overpowered and stabbed
Starting point is 00:17:55 multiple times in various parts of his body, including his arms, chest, face, and thighs. But there was a concentration of wounds to his neck. During one of the blows, the knife snapped. The tip was found by investigators embedded in his skull. Mekio's ultimate cause of death was blood loss. Bloody shoe prints starting from the middle of the stairs left the trail as the killer walked to the second floor. What exactly happened after that is unclear. But Nina and Yusuko also ended up on the second floor. There are some reports that there were indications that Yusuko tried to stop the bleeding from Nina's wounds with tissues. The suspect would have ended up in the kitchen where the eyes were eventually. So Morph, you know, no doubt this was an extremely brutal set of attacks and
Starting point is 00:18:41 murders. Now, we went through some possible scenarios, but there's really no way to know for sure when every person was attacked, you know, in what order. But no doubt, very vicious. Yeah, I think the police had their work cut out for them because all the victims were in different parts of the house, not all concentrated together in the same room. So you've really got potential evidence and clues spread out in multiple areas of the home. And I think police really had to go over all of that with a fine-tooth comb to see what they could find. And not only that, but then, you know, looking at moat.
Starting point is 00:19:22 Okay, you have multiple people in the home who are killed. Who's the target? Is there one person who was the target? and then everyone else was killed because of them. We mentioned Ray, but Ray was six years old. Who sets out to kill a six year old? That doesn't seem likely to me.
Starting point is 00:19:46 But then again, there are murders where there is no specific target. Someone just decides they want to go into a home and kill everyone inside. And we'll definitely discuss some different theories, but there's, you know, Oh, is the possibility that this person was worried that the kids could identify him. They were old enough to describe what he looked like or maybe possibly they knew him.
Starting point is 00:20:12 So maybe that's one reason that if the parents were the targets that the kids ultimately had to be killed too. The killer was apparently wearing gloves during the attack. Bloody gloves were found in the kitchen. The right glove had a slice through it. The blood was type A. It did not belong to any of the Miyazawa. Police knew that the attacker had been injured in the struggle, likely cutting himself. Maybe the killer was looking for towels or napkins in the kitchen for his own wounds when he heard Nina and Yusuko.
Starting point is 00:20:46 Grabbing an unbroken knife there, he would have then surprised Nina and Yusuko just outside of the bathroom, where he killed them before getting back to whatever he was doing in the kitchen, where both knives were later found. It's not known why some of the family members, once they knew that there was an attacker in the house, chose to stay there instead of trying to run for help. But perhaps they either thought the killer had left the home, felt safer where they were,
Starting point is 00:21:12 or were simply trapped inside the small, cramped house, with the killer standing between them and the exit. The victims knew that they had family right next door, yet none of them was able to reach them for help. To some people, it seems likely that the killer that night was very occupied in tending to his own injuries. Not only were their bloody towels, handkerchiefs, and band-aids scattered,
Starting point is 00:21:33 but he had tried to use some of Usuka's menstrual pads to stop the bleeding. There was apparently so much blood at the scene that a sample was able to be sent for a toxicology panel, which revealed no drugs, alcohol, or even nicotine in the killer's system. And we mentioned up front that there was a lot of evidence in this case. You know, with the number of victims
Starting point is 00:21:54 and the number of stab wounds inflicted. It's not that surprising to me that the killer would actually cut themselves during, you know, this frenzied attack. But it sounds like it must have been a pretty bad cut. I mean, the killer's blood was everywhere. So this was the year 2000, and they were obviously using DNA to help solve crimes and identify suspects and crimes, it wasn't as advanced as it is today
Starting point is 00:22:28 where they can do a lot more with it and do genealogy and all that stuff, but still, this might indicate somebody that's not aware of DNA because they left so much evidence of themselves behind that they either weren't aware of it or maybe they were just in a panic and didn't care. In the suburbs of D.C.,
Starting point is 00:22:48 a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020, blood and water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Looking closer at the three victims that had been stabbed the death, it seems as if Yusuko and her daughter,
Starting point is 00:23:22 Nina were stabbed much more severely than McKeio, almost as if the attacker went kind of overboard. When killing them, they had also been beaten during the attack and even stabbed after they had died. Some wonder whether the killer had some sort of pin up hatred for women. In addition to McKeo being stabbed less severely, he clearly wasn't beaten the way his wife and daughter were. In addition, his stab wounds were to various. areas of his body, while the stab wounds to Yusuko and Nina were focused on the head and neck areas. Nina died from a severed spinal cord, not blood loss. It's possible the knife breaking,
Starting point is 00:24:05 or the killer's own injury interrupted the attack, making McKeo's wounds less severe than they would have been otherwise. It was what the killer did after the murders that really shocked police. Instead of fleeing the home, he made himself comfortable and stayed. It looked like the killer ransacked the home, at least to some extent. The contents of some of the drawers in Macchio's desk on the first floor had been dumped into a tub in the second floor bathroom. Another drawer had been pulled out of the desk and left on top of Macquia's body. Isuka's purse had been emptied out into the toilet. There was a tail in the tub covered in the attacker's blood. The tub had been filled up with water too. Whether this was to try and destroy the documents, destroy evidence, to make a statement,
Starting point is 00:24:51 or just to cause some vandalism remains unknown. Like many things in this case, it's clear that the ransacking happened after the attack because a bloody band-aid was stuck to a notebook, as if it had come off while the killer was looking through the home. At some point during the killer's time in the Miazawa home, he defecated in the bathroom, but didn't flush. Feces was found by The investigators police tested the feces for DNA and found it. The DNA proved that it was not left by any of the murdered family. Authorities were able to analyze the contents and found that the suspect had eaten string beans and sesame seeds at some point before killing the family. After relieving himself, the killer continued to make himself at home, rummaging through their kitchen for food.
Starting point is 00:25:42 The suspect ate four small containers of ice cream, but for whatever reason, chose to squeeze the ice cream to the top of the tub instead of grabbing a spoon. This left DNA from his saliva on the cartons. He also drank four bottles of barley tea, but didn't drink any of the beer or soda in the fridge. One of these ice cream tubs was found in the bathtub with the contents of the desk from the first floor. Another was found next to the computer downstairs. He also ate half a melon. Just like with the ice cream, he didn't use a spoon. Instead, he scooped it out of the rind with his hand.
Starting point is 00:26:21 It's possible he wasn't able to efficiently use a spoon with the injuries to his hand. The killer didn't seem concerned about being identified by any of his clothing either. On the sofa in the living room, the killer left quite a few items, a gray crusher or bucket-style hat, a black unicloed jacket, a green plaid scarf and a light gray or white and purple raglan shirt had all been left behind, as if the suspect had stripped down their clothing. A raglan is most often referred to as a sweatshirt, but some would describe it as a long-sleeved shirt.
Starting point is 00:26:55 Either way, it seemed like a very big clue, because only 130 of these shirts were sold in Japan, but only 12 of the buyers could be tracked down. Two black handkerchiefs belonging to the killer were found at the scene. There were signs that they had been recently ironed. One had been folded into a triangle and possibly used as a face mask. The other had a hole in it and was possibly used as a grip on the knife. Some reports note that there were traces of willow leaves, feathers, and guano in the pockets of the jacket left behind. But that hasn't been confirmed.
Starting point is 00:27:26 One of the most talked about items belonging to the killer was a green and black hip bag or fanny pack. It had trace amounts of sand and some short hairs inside. A red substance was spotted inside the hip bag when a black light was used to examine the evidence. At first, it was thought that the red substance may be blood, but it turned out to be red highlighter ink. Interestingly, the bag and the handkerchiefs had the scent of cologne on them. An analysis of the ingredients would point to Dracar Noir, a fragrance for men, manufactured in France, but made pretty popular in the U.S. It was also sold in Japan starting in the early 1980s. And Morph, if I really want to talk about just the amount of items that the killer left behind.
Starting point is 00:28:18 I mean, it's really shocking when you think about it. We think about most killers wanting to be nearly undetectable or as undetectable as possible. This killer didn't seem to have any of those thoughts. you know, eating food, leaving traces of DNA all over this house and also leaving behind a lot of their clothing and items. It just seemed so strange to me. It seems like they were very sloppy or careless or maybe they had a plan and it sort of went out the window when they got injured.
Starting point is 00:28:58 You know, we just don't know. And I think the other thing for me is by and large, most killers want to end up. exit the scene as quickly as possible. But that didn't happen here. You know, this individual stayed around, took their time. Like I said, ate food, searched the house. I don't know what you make of that. Did they know that there were other family members living on the other side of the house? And if so, what made them feel so comfortable to stay inside of the home after the murders occur. I think it's a good thing that they did decide to stay there and get so comfortable because they did leave so many clues for investigators. Even right down to the Draccar noir fragrance,
Starting point is 00:29:47 which was popular back then. I still use it today. So they really had a profile of who this person was. Yeah, I don't know how popular it was in Japan, but it was very popular here. I remember in high school, everyone, all of my friends, including myself, wore Dracar. noir. And I think I'm probably outdated still using it today, but my thinking is if it smelled good back then, I still think it smells good. Yeah, I was going to say that, but I didn't want to, you know, put that on you. But police discovered that at 1.18 a.m. well after the murders, there was activity on McKeo's computer. So they knew that the killer had used it. A new folder was created on the computer and a website for a local theater was visited. The killer used the computer for about five
Starting point is 00:30:32 minutes, but it didn't seem like they had any actual purpose for doing so. Police were able to retrieve the killer's prints from the computer's mouse, but not the keyboard. The thumbprint from the killer was pretty unique as far as prints go, with a spiral pattern, apparently resembling a pig's nose. There's been speculation that this was because the keyboard had Japanese characters on it, and the killer wasn't able to use it to type. It's easy to accidentally create a new folder on a computer using the mouse or a keyboard shortcut, and the website for this cheeky theater company
Starting point is 00:31:02 had already been favoreded by McKeo, so it was easier click the bookmark and end up on the website. And the speculation morphed that the killer was not able to use the Japanese keyboard. It's interesting because, you know, it could point to the killer not being Japanese. Yeah, that's an interesting observation. And we will get into a little bit more
Starting point is 00:31:27 of the possible background of this person. From everything police found, it seemed like the killer really made themselves at home. Following the murders, we talked about how he ate and drank, went to the bathroom, played on the computer. But some reports say that they even took a nap in the home. The murders have been called the Goldilocks killings by some due to the killer's behavior, eating the Miyazawa's food, rifling through their home and even sleeping in their beds. It's not clear how police knew. that the killer napped or where they napped, whether it was in a bed or on a couch.
Starting point is 00:32:05 One possible scenario is that they found a good amount of blood on a couch or bed and theorized that he rested there. We're not sure how badly he was bleeding, but maybe he was even woozy. There was also evidence that the killer also paced in the children's room, evidenced by bloody footprints going back and forth across the room repeatedly. It's possible that the killer may have not only napped in the home, but even slept over. Because sometime after 10 a.m. the next morning, McKeio's computer navigated to the website, McKeio had said as the home page. It was the main page of the company he worked for.
Starting point is 00:32:42 Some reports also mention a visit to the website of the school that Yusuko worked at, but this is another thing that varies depending on what source you're looking at. For years, people believe that this activity on the computer was from the killer, more than 10 hours after the attacks. And this activity probably bolstered the idea that the killer had to have taken a nap or slept before deciding to leave. In 2014, it was clarified by authorities that this activity on the computer was not from the killer. It was most likely Yusuko's mother accidentally bumping the desk
Starting point is 00:33:14 and knocking the mouse onto the floor when she entered the house, where it was later found. The mouse falling onto the floor clicked the browser and bookmark and created activity on the computer. in her haste to check the house out or run for help, the desk was jostled. So it made it look like the killer was there when in fact they were likely gone. They were likely long gone by this time.
Starting point is 00:33:35 We do know that the killer was still in the house at 1.23 a.m. But he could have left any time after this. And to me, that's a pretty big clarification. You know, it's one thing to believe that the killer laid down for a bit. I mean, this was a very frenzied attack. And we also know that the killer was injured. So maybe there was a need to lay down for a little while, but to sleep there all night and stay, you know, well into the next morning, that would just add another level of brazenness to it.
Starting point is 00:34:13 You know, as if, you know, this person wasn't worried at all about anyone coming there, finding them. So I think this clarification does really help. Based on all of the items left behind, investigators believed that the killer was a slim young male. The style of his clothes were more typical of younger people. And the strength needed to climb up to the second story window. Suggested that the killer was agile and in shape. The jacket was a size large,
Starting point is 00:34:44 but the hip bag was adjusted to be about 32 inches around. If he wasn't wearing it as tight as possible, he would wear a size smaller than a 32. The hairs in the hip bag were short and dark. According to the Japan Times, a shoe print inside the home matched a shoe made by a South Korean company under an exclusive manufacturing contract with British shoemaker Slasinger. The 27 centimeter shoe was not sold in Japan. There is some disagreement about the size of the shoe, as apparently the print wasn't very clear. It could be a 27.5 centimeter shoe, which was sold in Japan.
Starting point is 00:35:29 There were also documents found spread out in the home. They were written in kanji, which is a style of Japanese writing that includes some Chinese characters. Some people point to this as proof that the killer was Japanese, if he could read kanji. But there's no proof the killer was reading the documents as he scattered them throughout the house. house. The next information comes from a leak. It's not an official release, so it may not be accurate, but it could be one of the biggest clues to the perpetrator's identity. The Tokyo police were looking for a second opinion on the DNA profile from experts at a university, and it's this profile that they were uncertain about that was leaked by someone working for that university.
Starting point is 00:36:08 DNA from the type A blood found on the killer's shirt indicates that he is of Asian ancestry, either Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, on his paternal line, and southern European ancestry on his mothers. Many have taken this to mean he had an Asian father and a white mother, but that may not be true. With the type of DNA they used to gather this information, it gets all of his maternal ancestors. It could be a great, great, great, great grandmother who was European. There were signs that the clothing left behind by the killer had been washed in hard water, while most of most water in Tokyo is soft. Due to the DNA leak,
Starting point is 00:36:47 many people say this points to the killer having recently washed his clothes in South Korea. But most of Seoul has soft water too. Many others still focusing on the possibility of the suspect being Chinese due to the DNA leak,
Starting point is 00:37:04 wonder if the clothes could have been washed in China, where hard water is more common. Perhaps by someone working in a fish factory, where handkerchiefs were often used as a grip. Many sources state that the sand found inside the hip bag left at the scene was traced back to a very specific and puzzling location, Edwards Air Force Base in Southern California.
Starting point is 00:37:27 There's been a lot said about how the sand from an Air Force Base could have been obtained by a civilian. First, there's always the possibility that the sand did not come from a visit to the Air Force Base. There's a chance it was imported from the United States as part of a construction project. The idea that an American either in the military related to someone serving is responsible for the murders is a very popular one. It seems to line up with some of the information we have, especially if the sand is indeed from near Edwards Air Force Base. The hip bag could have been bought secondhand or online with sand already in it, but only the killer's DNA was found on or inside of it, making the connection to the killer feel pretty strong. The bag that the sand was
Starting point is 00:38:09 found in was purchased in Japan. So if the killer wasn't the original owner, whoever he bought it from may have traveled from Japan with the bag to California where sand got inside, they could have traveled back to Japan with the bag full of sand, or they could have then sold it, maybe on eBay, or does it make sense that the owner of the bag traveled internationally was the killer and could have had a military connection? Personnel flying. into Yucota Air Force Base. About a 40-minute drive from the Mia Zaule home, we're not fingerprinted. There is also a U.S. Navy port in Yoko Sukkah about an hour drive from the home.
Starting point is 00:38:53 While we're discussing the sand, there are sources that say sand from the Murrah Peninsula was found on or in the jacket left behind by the killer. That specific jacket had only gone on sale in stores, starting in October two months before the murders. The Miora Peninsula area is a bit. south of the Yokazuka Naval Port, where there is a U.S. naval fleet. If this second clue about sand is true, the killer traces of sand from two areas connected to American military bases, one in Japan and one in California.
Starting point is 00:39:24 Many people don't believe the American military connection theory because they think that if the killer wasn't Japanese, they would have been fingerprinted upon arrival in the country. And that is the current policy. but it wasn't in place back in 2000 when the murders occurred. That policy of collecting prints of people coming to Japan is part of something called J-Biz, which is an immigration control system that was introduced into Japanese airports. It's a machine that's located at the immigration booth when a person who wishes to enter the country and applies for disembarkation, fingerprints of both index fingers are collected,
Starting point is 00:40:08 along with a photograph. At the same time, the person is checked against immigration office lists in criminals. People who were previously deported and other punished foreigners are prevented from entering the country. The J-BIS system wasn't put into place until 2007, years after the murders. The same argument is made for South Korea, but their government fingerprints all citizens when they turned 17. This fingerprint database was checked after the murders, and no match was found. If the killer was a resident of Japan or South Korea, they have never had their fingerprints taken. Even if the suspect was a teenager in 2000, by now they would have turned 17 or possibly traveled or gotten a driver's license,
Starting point is 00:40:52 and there's been no hits against any prints in any database. A foreigner would stand a better chance of escaping detection if they never returned to Japan. It seems possible that this person committed these terrible murders and then never committed any crimes that warranted their prints being taken again. and matched in a database. And more, if we've talked about a lot of stuff already, there are a lot of interesting facets to this case. I think it's one of the reasons why, you know,
Starting point is 00:41:20 so many people find it captivating, but with all these clues and all of these rabbit holes that we can go down, it seems like there are still more questions than answers. We don't know who the killer is, where he's from, or even exactly how he got into the home. We don't know everything they did while they were inside the home, and we don't know the exact order. Most importantly, we don't know of anyone with a motive to want the family dead.
Starting point is 00:41:49 They had no known enemies. This led police to wonder if their murderers were the result of a robbery gone wrong. If the killer was after money, they didn't get much. Almost $250,000, or about $2,000 U.S. was found. Easily accessible in the home, the money left behind wasn't hidden. It was near McKeio's computer and in a shelf that the killer rifled through, only about 150,000 yen, some of Yusuko's money from tutoring had been taken. No valuables or jewelry were taken from the home.
Starting point is 00:42:29 The only thing known to be stolen from the family was one of McKeio's sweatshirts. The killer had left his Uniclo jacket. and worn McKeio's sweatshirt on the way out. The killer wore larger shoes than McKeio and was taller than him as well. Police went back over and over looking at the events earlier in the day to see if any clue could be found that might help them solve the keys. The family's last day alive seemed like a normal one. At around 6 p.m. on December 30th,
Starting point is 00:43:01 the family made a shopping trip to a store about a mile from their home. We know they weren't home around 630 when a neighbor. drove by because her car wasn't parked in the driveway. At around 7 p.m., we can assume they were home because Yusuko called her mother, Heruko, probably to inform her that Nina was going to come next door to watch TV. She did head over and watch TV, and everything seemed okay. At 9.30, Nina went back home, and she and Yusuko likely went to bed. Maybe Ray was already asleep, but we don't know. But McKeo was awake working from home. At 10.38 p.m., he opened the password-protected document that was emailed to him. After that, we don't know what unfolded.
Starting point is 00:43:42 The most popular theory about what happened is that a teenager who was angry at McKeough decided to get rid of the family. McKeio had asked a group of teenage skateboarders in the park to be quieter since they were right behind the home and his children were trying to sleep. The style of clothing left by the killer seemed to be a style that may be popular with skateboarders. others theorized that that kind of clothing could have been left at the scene on purpose as a misdirection. While some of the clothing might point to skateboarders, the Slashinger shoe prints left by the killer aren't really a brand of shoe worn by skaters. If the clothes left behind were an intentional red herring, the killer has to be someone who knew that McKeio had spoken to the skaters in the park. Otherwise, why choose that style to try and misdirect?
Starting point is 00:44:40 This would also mean that the murders were planned and the victims were targeted. And this wasn't a robbery gone wrong. Many people do feel that the Miyazawa family was targeted, possibly by hitman. But there's never a strong motive in any of their theories. Early on, there were many reports in this case that the killer cut the phone lines or took the power cord from the computer. Neither of these things happened. and it's hard to find the origin of this information, but they add to the narrative of a targeted killing.
Starting point is 00:45:10 If this was a hit, who would have hired the killer? McKeel worked for the London-based marketing firm, Interbrand. He wasn't working on anything that would make him a target, and coworkers had no ideas about who would want to harm him. Yeah, to me, Morp, the hitman theory is a tough one. Just because, you know, it's kind of hard to figure out, you have this family with no known enemy. So we're struggling with a motive right off the bat.
Starting point is 00:45:38 Well, then who is going to need to or want to hire a hitman to kill this family? What's the motive behind it? Yeah, that's the hard part in this case. You just can't find a motive. I mean, we know it's probably rare, but people have hired hitmen. But even if that's the case here, who would hire hitman and why? And there's just no motive here that anyone can find. On Christmas Day, less than a week before the murders,
Starting point is 00:46:08 Yusuko had mentioned to Mikkio's father that a car had been parking near their home. This stood out to her because, as we mentioned, the duplex with the Miyazawa family on one side and their extended family on the other side was really the only home with people living in it in that immediate area. There were two other families living up the streetaways, but if the mystery car was driven by someone visiting one of the, those families. Why parked so far from their house? The driver would have needed to walk a pretty good distance to get to one of those other homes. Also, if the driver of that car was the killer, they likely had a driver's license and prints were collected of people who obtained driver's licenses.
Starting point is 00:46:53 And as we've discussed, the prints of the killer are not in any database in Japan. Because no one who knew the family could think of anyone that would want to murder them. And since robbery gone wrong didn't seem to be the motive. Some speculated that the family was chosen at random by some disturbed person in that area, maybe someone who had fantasized about murdering someone, and for some unknown reason, settled on the Miazawa family. Reportedly, in the months prior to the murders, a number of cats in the area had been found tortured and killed, which only fueled speculation that a depraved killer was living in the area. Other people suspected that perhaps a squatter or homeless person was responsible for the murders, and they,
Starting point is 00:47:34 thought that Mia Zao home was unoccupied and tried to enter it leading to a confrontation. If you were looking for an abandoned home to try and get into in order to squat, surely the killer, if they were a squatter, would have seen the lights on and a car in the driveway. There were just six homes still standing in the entire neighborhood, and only two of them were vacant, so there were other empty homes that a squatter could have easily chosen. In addition, the killer left behind nice clothes and used an expensive knife in the murders, which would seem to go again. a homeless person or squad or being the killer. Police checked out a few sightings of suspicious men,
Starting point is 00:48:10 but the lead seemed to go nowhere. The night of the murders, a taxi driver recalled picking up three adult men. After midnight, they were all very quiet, the entire ride, and were dropped off at a nearby train station. What made the men even more suspicious was what looked like a bloodstain left in the backseat of the taxi.
Starting point is 00:48:32 There are some reports that, this turned out to be chocolate. If more than one person was involved in the murders, only one of them left any trace of themselves behind in the form of DNA. So there's a number of leads here. There's a number of sightings. Many of them don't seem to pan out. I do think there is one thing that's tough for me to believe here.
Starting point is 00:48:57 And that's that there was more than one killer in the home that night. Is it possible? Yes, technically it is possible, but we know that there was only one person who left DNA. To me, all signs point to a lone killer. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think there's anything that points to a second person being in the house. You have DNA from the ice cream carton, DNA from the feces, DNA from the blood, and it's all pointing to one person. so I have a hard time believing there was a second person here. And can we talk about the feces for a minute? First of all, who takes a duke and then doesn't flush the toilet?
Starting point is 00:49:44 That's just nasty. But then put it in the context that you've murdered and you're just going to sit down, grab a magazine and, you know, pinch one off and then not flush the toilet. The thought of that is both revolting. and confusing. It's like we're dealing with someone who either doesn't have a clue about, you know, modern forensic techniques or just doesn't care. They certainly don't have any etiquette to not flush the toilet.
Starting point is 00:50:21 But then again, if somebody is willing to kill an entire family this manner, they probably don't care about etiquette. Police did have one very promising lead. On December 31st, about five hours before the, the bodies were found, a man in his 30s with a deep hand injury was treated at a medical center near Tobu Niko Station, which is about two to three hours from the Mia Zawa's home. It's reported that he didn't give his name or explain what happened to his hand, despite the injury being so bad
Starting point is 00:50:50 you can see his bone through the wound. Hospital staff told police the man was wearing jeans and a black jacket. Reportedly, the man left his jacket behind at the hospital after he was treated. This mystery patient was believed to be wearing McKeio's light-colored sweatshirt with the word dive on the front and the English alphabet on the back. It's not clear if the jacket left behind was collected by police or tested for DNA. We should point out that much of what we were laying in this case is based on translation from Japanese to English. So it's possible not everything has been translated 100% fully or accurately, but this hospital lead seems to be a very worthwhile clue. And, you know, kind of piggybacking off of that more, it is one of the reasons why it's so very difficult to do a case like this.
Starting point is 00:51:37 You know, these translations, they are extremely tough. You know, you're relying on some software to try to help you translate from Japanese to English. And it doesn't always come out exactly as intended. Another theory that people have thrown out over the years, and one that police seem to have considered, is that the killer murdered the Miazawa family after going to the wrong side of the duplex, and that their family members next door in the duplex were the intended victims. But in this theory, it seems that there's no motive to target the family members next door. There were no known beefs with any of them. it seems like in an effort to make sense of a case that just doesn't make sense, a lot of people have chased one theory or another with no real evidence that backs up any of those theories. No matter what the motive for the murders was, the Japanese authorities wanted this
Starting point is 00:52:39 case solved and announced a reward of 20 million yen, about $190,000 for information in the case, but no new promising leads were generated, and the case began to go cold. In April 2001, a statue of Gizo, a Buddhist deity, was found near the Sengawa River and collected as potential evidence. Many sources say the statue was found near the Mia Zawa home, but some sources specify that it was less than a mile away. Jizo is said to protect children, specifically those who die before their parents, and thus have to navigate the afterlife alone. Was this statue left by the killer for Nina and Ray? Or maybe left as a kind gesture by a stranger who had heard of the case? In the end, it's not clear that the statute could be connected to the case.
Starting point is 00:53:30 In 2010, the statute of limitations for murder in Japan, which was previously 25 years, was eliminated. This is good news because with no movement on the case in almost 24 years, it's not hard to imagine that a 25th anniversary. will come. Now, whenever the suspect is identified, there can be an arrest in a trial. Some semblance of justice and closure for the Miyazawa family, as opposed to a killer being identified and walking away Scott Free. Police along the way remain hopeful that they will catch the killer. According to ABC News, in 2019, Manabu-Ide, Superintendent of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police, special Investigative Task Force said, it's our mission to arrest a criminal who murdered four innocent people, including two young children and make him atone for his crime.
Starting point is 00:54:30 This unsolved murder of entire family remains one of Japan's most infamous mysteries, one that most people will never forget. Kyoko Imamora, a resident of South Tokyo, told this week in Asia, I remember the case. Everyone does. The way they all died was terrible, but what frightened me the most, was how this person managed to get into their house late at night when it should have been locked up. It makes me look at my own home and wonder just how easy it would be for someone to get inside
Starting point is 00:54:57 if they really wanted to. At the end of 2022, the Mia Zao home was still standing, with lines marking Nina and Ray's growth running up one of the interior walls. Takeshi Tushita, former police chief, worried that if the home was demolished, investigators new to the case wouldn't get the full feel of the scene. He said to ABC News, Can the new people who haven't experienced the graphic crime scene themselves focus on the investigation? So there's a couple of things there for me more. One is that, and you see this quite a bit, when there is a horrible murder in an area, it shakes the residents up. And I think it makes a lot of people kind of question their own safety, maybe how they do things.
Starting point is 00:55:45 do they check their doors every night to make sure that they're locked? I mean, you know, you heard this resident say it. It makes them look at their own home and wonder just how easy it would be for someone to get inside if they really wanted to. And how many of us have had that thought, whether it's because of a local crime or, you know, all of the true crime that we talk about, you know, personal safety is definitely something that cannot be taken for granted. And then the other thing is the fact that this house is still standing and that,
Starting point is 00:56:25 you know, these lines marking the two kids growth are still there on one of the interior walls. And that's really sad in a way because you know that those lines were, we're never going to go any higher because their lives were taken. really puts it in a perspective when you think about that. And what's interesting is that the home is still standing since it was, you know, long ago planned to be torn down. And for some reason, they left it standing. A lot of times, you know, a house like this, they'll tear it down and make it into a park or something like that to honor the family and, and make it a place for,
Starting point is 00:57:06 for peace, for people to come visit. But to leave the home standing there. And you could still see pictures of this home. It's, it's kind of creepy looking sitting there all by it. and sort of secluded with these big trees in the background. So if anyone wants to find that picture, you can get a sense of just what this home look like. Well, it's even more strange because it was even back then one of what, three or four houses left in the entire neighborhood because they were building this big park and everybody was kind of selling off.
Starting point is 00:57:42 This case has naturally drawn the attention of many. online sluice. One reason is because there's just so much evidence. So many clues that were left behind by the killer. And it makes people wonder, how is this case not salt? They have belongings left by the killer, his prince, his DNA. And I'm sure a lot of listeners are asking. They have DNA. How is this case unsolved? Well, apparently in Japan, they can only use DNA samples to directly match them to other samples. They're not able to use things like genetic genealogy, to find a match to distant relatives and databases like Jedmatch.
Starting point is 00:58:24 We all know how genealogy is solving cold case after cold case in the U.S. and could potentially identify the person who killed the Miyazawa family, especially if they were from outside of Japan. But sadly, because of Japanese laws, they cannot use. use genealogy in an effort to find the killer. Unless someday they get a match to his DNA or print from another crime. We may never know the killer's identity. And I think a lot of times when we hear that police have the killer's DNA, it's really
Starting point is 00:59:01 just a foregone conclusion that a case will be solved. But that doesn't always happen. You know, how many cases have we talked about where, you know, they've had, you know, they've had fingerprints, they've had DNA, but they've never been able to match any of it to something in a database. The killer has just done a very good job of staying out of any type of database that would identify them. It's such a frustrating case to have that potential to identify this person and due to the laws, just not be able to use those tools and find that name. And, And if you're one of this family's relatives or one of their friends, it's got to be painful to know that this person could possibly slip through the cracks when there may be a way to easily identify them.
Starting point is 00:59:56 There's a persistent rumor that authorities already know who the killer is. Apparently, a part-time employee at a Korean restaurant was spotted walking his dog after the murders with a bandage on his hand. It said that police believed the employee had killed the Mizawa family. He was only identified publicly by the initial H. Not much else is known about this man or why police may think he was involved. There's always the chance that wherever the killer is, he'll wind up being located by his fingerprints, which are in the Interpol database.
Starting point is 01:00:26 More than 5 million people have already been excluded through their prints. All unidentified deceased males in Japan are checked for a fingerprint match automatically, due to a corridor. So maybe it's just a matter of time. And it is very interesting to see how other countries approach things. And we just talked about the fact that in Japan, they can't use genetic genealogy the way that it's used in the U.S. But now we're talking about all unidentified deceased males in Japan or check for a fingerprint match automatically. So, you know, this case could be solved, but maybe not until.
Starting point is 01:01:07 the killer dies. That's a real possibility. And if this killer was as young as some people believe, maybe 20s, early 20s, that may come pretty far down the line. We can always hope that maybe the laws change are in Japan and they'll allow for genealogy testing in a case like this. A lot of people wonder if this killer had other victims. One case that has often been linked is that of Junco Kobayashi, a Sophia University student who was bound and stabbed the death inside her house, which was then torched on September 9, 1996. Police have questioned more than 75,000 people and followed up on over 1,100 leads, but have yet to come close to identifying a suspect or suspects, the murder is believed to have
Starting point is 01:02:00 taken place at around 355 p.m. around this time, a man, a man, in an ochre-colored raincoat. It was seen standing outside of Kobayashi's home in the rain without an umbrella, staring up at the second floor. In addition, type A blood was found in DNA at the crime scene, which police believe came from a hand or arm injury sustained by the murderer. Police have offered a $3 million yen reward for information leading to an arrest. The family of the victim has,
Starting point is 01:02:35 also offered a further 5 million yet. While there are some parallels in the case, it's not clear if police actually have any reason to think. The cases are connected, or if any physical evidence connects the cases. At the end of the day, there's simply more questions in this case than there are answers. Why was this family killed? And how is their killer slipped through the cracks all these years, despite a mountain of physical evidence? It's frustrating that DNA and genealogy could certainly. help solve this case, but until Japanese law changes and those
Starting point is 01:03:09 tools can be used, we may never know who is responsible for the Mia Zawa family murders. Or we may one day know but it could be many, many years down the road. And I think there is a degree of frustration there. Obviously, I'm sure there is on the part of
Starting point is 01:03:27 the victims surviving family members, but just from, you know, people in general. You know, if you follow true crime. When it comes to unsolved cases, well, what's the biggest thing that you want to see happen for the case to be solved, right? You want the killer to be identified. You want justice for the victim. So, you know, when you go through a case like this, more where unlike so many cases we do, there's a ton of evidence. It makes it that much more perplexing that the case hasn't been
Starting point is 01:04:03 solved. Now, you and I, I have talked about some cases where they had nothing to work with. And so at the end of the day, it's kind of easy to see why the case remains unsolved, no leads, no evidence, no DNA. That's going to be a tough case. But that's not what we're talking about here. I mean, this killer ate food, went to the bathroom, left clothes behind, left their own blood. I don't think I've ever seen or, you know, researched an unsolved case where there was more evidence of the killer than this case.
Starting point is 01:04:47 It's frustrating that when you have that mountain of evidence that the case still remains unsolved. And for me, anyways, I not only want to know who the killer was, that's obvious. I want them to be held accountable. but also I want to know the background of why they chose this family and how they got into the house and how things played out once they were inside. Yeah, I think the motive is something that many people want to know in addition to the identity of the killer. You know, were they targeted for a specific reason? Or was this more of an opportunistic crime? You know, this house was, I don't want to say out by itself, but, you know, there wasn't a lot of other houses around.
Starting point is 01:05:39 You have this whole kind of skateboarder connection. It was said that McKeio had gotten into it with some of these skateboarders, right? They were making too much noise. But at the end of the day, all that stuff right now is a mystery. And all people can do is, you know, specular. and head down some different avenues. And some of it may turn out to be correct. A lot of it is going to, you know, ultimately turn out to be irrelevant probably once they do solve and if they do solve this case. But I don't know. I can see why, you know, people in Japan refer to this as one of the most
Starting point is 01:06:25 infamous unsolved killings and mysteries in the country because it's mystifying me right now that this thing is not solved. I got to be honest with you. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I think for people on sites like Reddit and webs loose and that kind of stuff, I think that's why they spend so much time dissecting this case and trying to figure out what happened and who's responsible and I'll certainly be paying attention to see if there's ever any answers in this case. Yeah, yeah, me too. But that's it for our episode on the Mia Zawa Family Murders. If you love the show, but I haven't done so yet, go out, give us a five-star rating. You can also leave a review, but keep telling your friends that word of mouth about the
Starting point is 01:07:09 criminology podcast goes a long way. If you want to find us on social media, we're on X with the handle at criminology pod. You can also find us on Facebook by going to facebook.com slash criminology podcast. And you can join our Facebook discussion group, Criminology podcast discussion and fans. So that's it for another episode of criminology. But Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then for Mike and Morph.
Starting point is 01:07:38 We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.

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