Criminology - The Moscow, Idaho Murders

Episode Date: November 27, 2022

Around noon on November 13th, 2022, first responders found four victims in a home at the University of Idaho. They were identified as 20-year-old Ethan Chapin, 21-year-old Madison Mogen, 20-year-old Xana Kernodle, and 21-year-old Kaylee Goncalves. Madison, Kaylee, and Xana lived in the home, and Ethan, Xana's boyfriend, had stayed over at their house for the night. The 4 victims were students at the University of Idaho. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss this case that is currently dominating the headlines. What police found at the home wasn't someone who had simply passed out. Instead, the 4 college students had been brutally stabbed to death, and the crime scene was brutal. The police are currently processing evidence and working to identify who committed these heinous murders. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When was the last time you felt in control of your business finances? Expenses tracked, invoices sent, taxes ready. That's where Found comes in. Found brings your banking, bookkeeping, invoicing, and taxes together in one simple app. Manage expenses, invoice clients, send payments and prep for tax time right where you bank. Join the hundreds of thousands who have already streamlined their finances with Found. Open a found account for free at found.com. That's F-O-U-N-D dot com.

Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by lead bank member FDIC. there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfares app, when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill, too? All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast experts set up on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app.

podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. So, everyone, and welcome to episode 234 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And I'm Mike Morford. Mr. Morford, what is going on with you? Just getting over our Thanksgiving. Had a good time.

How about you? Yeah, same here. You and I had to tape the day after Thanksgiving because of the holiday. So we pushed our taping back a little bit. Mine was really good. I hope everyone out there who celebrates it had a good one. Yeah, hopefully everybody got together with their family and friends and had a good time and they're not in a turkey coma like I am.

Yeah, it was a little rough getting up today and shaking off that big dinner for sure. Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Nancy Clark, Kelly Snyder jumped out at our highest level, Matt McIntyre, Laura Appal Yard, Nora Delaney, and Amber. So that's a lot of great new support. We really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much. That support goes a long way to helping us get the show out.

And for anyone else out there that would like to support criminology, you can do so by going to patreon.com slash criminology. All right, buddy, let's go ahead and jump into this episode. You know, in criminology, we really try to bring listeners a variety of cases so that the show never gets boring. We cover serial killers, missing persons, cold cases, and cases being. solved with DNA and genealogy, a lot of times the cases we cover happened years or decades ago and are far removed from the new cycle.

But every so often, a crime happens that is so shocking and so bizarre that it takes over the headlines in mainstream media and the world of true crime in general and dominates internet sleuth communities like Reddit and web sluice. Well, it just so happens that there's a recent case. like that in the new cycle right now, dominating the media, and it's captured the minds of a lot of armchair detectives. We're talking about the very mysterious and shocking Moscow, Idaho murders. Just a word of caution. We know that the details in these episodes are hard enough when we talk about people, but sometimes a lot of pet lovers, really fine discussion of the harming of animals,

especially hard to hear. In this episode, we have to discuss. that topic as it may be related to this case. Idaho's no stranger to being on the radar of the true crime community. Recently, there were sudden developments in the case of missing five-year-old Michael Vaughn, called Monkey by his family. He vanished while riding a scooter in Fruitland in the southwest part of Idaho, just near the Oregon border. He hasn't been seen since July 27, 2021.

Authorities had not had much to say about the search for Michael, and no suspect ever seemed to turn up, and there were no leads to follow. But suddenly, in November of this year, there was news in the case. An arrest had been made in connection with Michael's disappearance, and the backyard of a home, just a four-minute walk from Michael's home, was being dug up in the search for his remains or other evidence. That search continued for multiple days, but investigators wouldn't comment on whether they had found anything or not.

Michael still hasn't been found, and the woman that was arrested has been found unfit for trial at this time. While residents were happy to hear about the news of Michael's case, Idaho would soon be in the spotlight for another case. A horrific one. This time, the news would come out of Moscow, a town of about 26,000 people, almost five hours north of Fruitland. Like the Fruitland Police Department, the Moscow Police Department now has the eyes of the true crime world, watching them, as well as the worried residents of that community, waiting for answers and for a killer or killers to be taken. taken off the streets. On November 13, 2022, four University of Idaho students were found dead in an apartment just off campus. This was the same weekend that three football players at the

University of Virginia were killed in a shooting, causing the stories to be sort of confusing at first. It was a bloody and tragic day for seven college students across the country. Initially, the Moscow mystery began with a 911 call to police, which up to the time we're recording this episode, they haven't released publicly. Apparently, that 911 call was placed regarding an unconscious person in the residence at the three-floor six-bedroom apartment home at 1122 King Road. At around noon on November 13th, first responders found four victims in the home. They were identified as 20-year-old Ethan Chapin, 21-year-old Madison Mogan, 20-year-old Zana Kronodle and 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez. Madison, Kaylee, and Zana lived in the home,

and Ethan, Zana's boyfriend, had stayed over at their house for the night. The four victims were students at the University of Idaho. What police found wasn't someone who had simply passed out. Instead, the four college students had been brutally stabbed to death, and the crime scene was a bloody one. Two other housemaids who had been home leading up to the murder were not harmed. Apparently, when they found their friends dead, they called other friends to ask for help or advice, and people came over to the home. And when they did, someone decided it was time to call 911. As we mentioned, police have not released that call as of now. And we don't know who actually called 911. All police would say later on was that they know it wasn't the killer.

As news of the four deaths made its way out, a lot of people think, thought that perhaps this was a bad batch of drugs and that the four had overdosed. Not many people were thinking this was a quadruple murder. Ethan's mother shared a bit of information that was shocking. According to a Radar Online article, she told people, they were stabbed. We got the call. I don't want people to make assumptions about our kids. It wasn't drugs, and it was definitely not some passion thing between these kids.

Someone entered the house. Investigators had to make a statement about the deaths, and they said publicly that there was no threat to the community at the time, and that the murders were part of a targeted, isolated crime. At the same time, police admitted that they didn't have a suspect or a motive, and that only caused fear in the community. A lot of people have posed the question, if police didn't know who did this and why,

how could they say that it was an isolated incident and that nobody else was at risk? And more if this is, you know, a type of statement that you hear in a lot of cases, Okay, police don't really know what happened. No suspect, no motive. They don't really have any of the answers, but they come out and they say that this is an isolated incident. Nobody else should be fearful.

Well, I think that's hard for residents of a community. When four people like this are slain, there's going to be fear. And, you know, a statement coming from police like, like this is really not going to allay that. Yeah, and I get it. They probably didn't want to start a panic and didn't want people unnecessarily being on alert and being worried about going out.

But at the same time, to me at least, I think it's, it's kind of irresponsible to say that there's no risk to anyone else when they don't know who did this. So how do they know that? How do they know that the public is totally safe? And it may turn out to be that they're correct. but at the time they're putting up the statement, I don't think they really knew that. Well, you know, the police are kind of walking that fine line.

They don't want the public to be in fear, thinking that there's a serial killer running around. But, you know, is it the right thing to do? I don't know. It's really a tough situation. Investigators found no sign of forced entry at the home. The Lata County coroner Kathy Mabbitt confirmed that the four students had all been stabbed multiple times with a fixed blade edged weapon,

some sort of knife, most likely. There was no sign of sexual assault found during any of the victim's autopsies. Corner Mabbitt also confirmed to CNN that there was lots of blood on the wall in the home. At least one of the victims had defensive wounds on their hands, but authorities refused to disclose which one. Mabbitt also confirmed that there was no indication that drugs were involved in their deaths, though the toxicology report had not yet been completed at that time. Local news descended on the scene, followed by national outlets. Their cameras were fixed on the comings and goings at the house and, you know, what investigators

were doing. There was crime scene tape marking the perimeter of the yard. Camera zoomed in and actually spotted what a piece. appeared to be blood, oozing down from one of the exterior walls of the home. Although police didn't confirm it was blood, the image only served to frighten more people and made many realize just how bad things must have been inside. Investeeers worked to piece together the timeline of each of the four victims on the night before and morning of their murder. On Saturday, November 12th, Zana and Ethan went to a party

on campus at the Sigma Chi fraternity, where Ethan was a member. They were there from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. It's currently unknown at the time of this recording where they were until they returned home to King Road early on Sunday morning November 13th at around 145 a.m. At around 10 p.m. on that Saturday night, Kaylee and Madison went to the corner club, a sports bar on Main Street. They stayed there until around 1.30 a.m. Sunday morning and then went to a nearby food truck. The food truck grub truckers live streamed their kitchen, cashier in the crowd on Twitch. It's some sort of audience participation thing. You can watch on Twitch and then send money to pay for people's food. In the stream, one commenter flirted with a girl. And then the food truck

employee relayed that this person thought the customer was cute and wanted to pay for her meal. At 133 a.m. Madison and Kaylee walked into the frame of one of Grub Truckers cameras. Kaley ordered Carbonara and they waited with the small crowd of students on the street. At 1.43 a.m. they left, heading south down Main Street, Kaylee laughs and films Madison holding the Carbonara as they walk off to catch a ride to their home on Kings Road, about a mile away from where the food truck was parked. Authorities initially stated that the two had used Uber to get a ride home,

but Uber had no record of their ride. The information was then revised, And it's now believed that they used a private party to get home. People have noticed when watching this video that there seems to be someone else with Kaylee and Madison, whether the girls knew it or not. As the two come into frame, a young man in a hat and hoodie follows them. Almost awkwardly close. Madison and Kaylee are both stumbling a bit. As they walked up to the food truck, the young man went in a wide path and stood away from everyone else.

It just seemed like he was waiting. and it looked as if he was staring at the girls. As soon as they go toward the pickup window, the young man quickly headed that way towards them. This young man interacts with other people, standing nearby waiting for food, but not with Madison or Kaylee. It's almost like they're ignoring him.

As they run off with the food, he makes a gesture sort of like, what am I, chopped liver or where are you going? He turns back to the other people standing nearby, who have moved on to other conversations by then and then quickly walks off. He goes in a different direction than Madison and Kaylee, but many were suspicious of him,

wondering if he could have gotten back to their house before they did or taken a shortcut to intercept their path home. This was before it was known that they didn't walk home, so knowing this, I don't think it's possible. He met up with them on their way home since they were in a car. Investigators have stated that they do not believe the young man in the hoodie, who they did identify is involved.

We have to take a closer look at the timeline in the early hours of Sunday morning. It's been stated that the four victims all got home at 1.45 a.m. But I think what was meant was that they all got home by 145 a.m. And also this timeline seems a bit off. Someone has claimed that Ethan

texted her son at 2 a.m. And it seemed like from what Ethan said in his text, that he and Zana were still at the Sigma Kai House, not at 1122 King Road. The food truck that was streaming on Twitch started the live stream at around 10 p.m. And Kaylee and Madison didn't show up until three hours and 43 minutes had passed. This makes it 143 a.m. when they arrived. So they couldn't have been home by 145 a.m.

Kaylee's sister said that based on what she's been able to piece together, the ride arrived at 149 a.m. to pick them up from the food truck. And they arrived home by 156 a.m. based on a neighbor's ring camera. And morph, as we're going through this story, you know, one of the things that really jumps out at me is the difficulties that police must face when they are trying to investigate a crime that occurs on or around a campus because there's so much going on. You know, I think back to my time in college, and obviously that was a long time ago, it was chaotic, especially on the weekends. And, you know, back then, there was no live streaming

on Twitch. There weren't even cell phones. when I was in college, there certainly weren't ring doorbell cameras. So to know where somebody was at 11, 12, 1 in the morning, it was very difficult. But there are still a lot of challenges today on a college campus. Yeah. And as we're discussing that timeline, I was thinking back to what, you know, if this case had happened in the 1970s or 1980s, they wouldn't have nearly what they have now to to help them piece together what happened because we talked about it, the streaming,

the ring camera, there's just so much surveillance in society now. They could probably track cell phones, stuff like that. But if this case happened back then, what would they have? They'd have eyewitness reports. They were here around this time, that time. And it would be a lot harder to put this timeline together, I think, for investigators. Well, you said 70s or 80s. Let's start the 90s in there as well, because that's what?

I was in college. Don't make me older than I really am. I don't want to do that. Now, it was initially reported that Ethan lived in the home with Zana, but he was just visiting, as he often did. At that time,

it was known that the home had six bedrooms. With four victims, two who were thought to share a room, it led to speculation about the other three rooms in the house. It was publicly revealed that there were two other people living in the home, two female University of Idaho students. One room was vacant. People assumed that they must have stayed elsewhere that night and were lucky to have not

been home when the attack took place. But investigators released the shocking information that the roommates were both home that night and had not been attacked and had apparently slept through whatever happened. These two housemates had returned to the home before. any of the four victims had at around 1 a.m. The two lived on the lowest level of the home where the door had a keypad entry. The second floor of the home has a large sliding glass door near the kitchen that many who had been to the home confirmed was usually left unlocked.

Whoever killed Ethan, Zana, Madison, and Kaylee either chose to spare the other two young women or they didn't know they were they. there. Looking at the layout of the home on Zillow, if a person went into that house with the aim of attacking everyone inside, it's possible they wouldn't think to check for people sleeping in the lowest level of the home. They may have assumed that it was a utility area. It's possible that this killer or killers murdered four people, and since they didn't hear any noise from the lowest level of the house, they didn't go down there to investigate. And this is one of the reasons why some people think that the killer was a stranger. It's also possible that the killer was a stranger. It's also possible that the killer was stalking the home and saw four people enter it before he struck and didn't know

anyone else lived there, which would explain only four victims despite six people being in the home. But just as there's an argument to be made that this killer was a stranger to the victims, it's also entirely possible that this attack was somehow personal and either Cayley or Madison or both were the targets. Kaylee's room has a sliding glass door that leads to a deck. coincidentally, in media photos, there is a visible handprint on that sliding glass door. You can tell it's the upstairs bedroom and not the door near the kitchen because there's a good vibes sign hanging in her room that's visible. It's a single handprint with the fingers splayed out. It looks like it was dusted for prints by investigators.

If someone had entered the sliding glass door to attack Kaylee, Madison could have been the close. and could have heard the attack and tried to help becoming a target herself. Of course, they would have had to climb up to the balcony, but that has definitely been done by killers before. The reverse could be true. With Madison being the target and Kaylee being the one with the door that could have been pried open, Kaylee and Madison, lifelong friends who are always together,

could have both been targeted, regardless of which person the suspect planned to attack. Any commotion could have woken Ethan and Zana. This may be the case based on a few statements made by the parents of the victims. Zana was said to have many bruises like she had fought back against her attacker and fought hard. Ethan wasn't found in bed like the other three victims were. He's rumored to have been found by the stairs. If Ethan heard a noise or Zana had heard a noise and Ethan went to check it out for her,

he could have surprised the attacker, who then went to check on the rest of the house in the direction Ethan came from, or maybe heard Zana calling for Ethan when he didn't return. Either way, the suspect would have made it down the stairs to Zana's bedroom where she was waiting for Ethan, already on guard. Zana's father, Jeffrey Kronotel, described her injuries to Sienna and as bruises torn by the knife. He said she's a tough kid. Perhaps after the struggle with Zana and the surprise of Ethan being home, the killer

simply was overwhelmed and fled the house, not risking further confrontation downstairs. But again, the killer may not have known that the other housemates were there. So we have this extremely brutal crime scene, but we have to look at the motive. What was it? There was no robbery. There was reportedly no sexual assault. Could it have been a thrill kill? Was it personal?

I mean, there's a lot of questions here as it relates to motive. And I think that's just one of the things that's proving to be, you know, a real. real challenge for police. It's unknown if any of the victims were personally targeted or if someone randomly chose to attack the house that night. According to former detective Mark Furman, acting as a Fox News contributor, Kaylee talked to a friend about a stalker about two months before she was killed. What's really interesting about this is that though she lived in the house on King Road, she had been in a home with family and had only returned to campus for the way. weekend to show Madison the Range Rover she had just bought.

She was going to return home on Tuesday and take her mom out to a birthday lunch. She was also going to move to Texas to start an IT job on January 1st. If she had a stocker that wanted to kill her, they picked a perfect time to strike. There's been a lot of criticism of the two surviving roommates online. People have asked questions like, were they involved and how could they not hear anything? And why didn't they call 911 until after they called friends to come over? I think we have to remember that when you're young and in college, sometimes you make mistakes.

Perhaps being college students, they went out and partied and were deep asleep when the attack happened and didn't hear anything. When they found their friend's bodies, they may have been in shock and not called 911 right away. I think it's hard to know how someone will react to a stressful situation until they're in one. According to police, the two surviving housemates have been cooperative and are not suspects. Well, as the father of one college student and soon to be two college students, you know, I can tell you, they don't always make the best decisions, right?

Kids that age, and I'm sure more if we didn't either when we were that age, it takes some life experience sometimes to know how to handle certain situations. And I think it's all too easy for people online to say, well, why didn't you do this or Why didn't you do that? Okay. How many of us have found friends, loved ones, four people murdered in the same house where we were just sleeping? How do we know how we would react? I don't know.

Yeah, and I think people can't underestimate the shock these roommates could have been in when they found these four people dead. It had to be incredibly difficult to deal with. And who knows that, you know, I'd like to think I would call them. in a situation like that, but I don't know if I would. You know, they just did what was natural at the time and called other people to come over maybe to verify what they, they were seeing. It was so shocking. And that's when they decided to call 911.

I think today you would call 911. But as a 19, 20, 21 year old who had been out partying, what would you do back then? I don't know the answer to that. So I think, I guess what I'm getting at is, you know, sometimes I think people need to give individuals some slack, you know, unless they're found to be involved, which it doesn't sound like they were at all, you know, maybe we'd give them a little slack. Yeah, I think the important thing is that police have said they are cooperating and they're not suspects. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered.

I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved. Hill new technology allowed investigators to do but had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and Water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Police went to area stores questioning employees

about recent specialty knife purchases. An employee at Moscow building supply told interviewers that authorities came in asking about recent sales of K-bar brand hunting knives. The store didn't carry that brand, but the manager mentioned that they were like the knife Rambo had in the movies. According to

Radar Online, that kind of knife is described as a very unique style of a knife, which is about six inches long. The University's Reserve Officers Training Corps or ROTC program was also looked at to see if they had any missing knives. This line of investigation

brings to mind serial killers Danny Rowling, known as the Gainesville Ripper. In August of 1990, he killed four University of Florida students and one student from Santa Fe College, all young women, in Gainesville, Florida. He used a K-bar knife in these murders, and he gained entry to the apartments by prying open sliding glass doors. Now more if I do want to talk about a K-bar knife. I own a couple of these K-bar knives. Yeah, you could describe them. is kind of like Rambo knives. I wouldn't exactly say that most K-Bars fit the bill of what Rambo had in that movie.

And also going back to that description of a knife about six inches long, K-bars are long knives. I'm thinking they meant the blade was probably six inches long. But they are popular knives and they're used by and have been used for many, many years by many branches of the military. This case is also reminiscent of Ted Bundy, who also targeted young. young female students in Florida at the Florida State University, Kai Omega House. He got him through a door that had a broken lock. He bludgeoned and strangled two students to death and severely beat another two students who live there.

They survived because Bundy got spooked by car headlights in the window. He fled the house running right past another sorority sister as she had at home. Authorities were able to narrow down the time frame of all four attacks to just one 15-minute window in which none of the 30 or so witnesses nearby had heard a thing. It was reported that following the Moscow murders, police allowed a dumpster close to the crime scene to be emptied into a trash truck before it was searched. As a result, police had to sift through trash at the dump site for possible clues. Multiple dumpsters on King Road were reportedly seized and searched for potential evidence.

If anything of interest was found, investigators have not disclosed it publicly. Days after the murderers, investigators, began to look closely for tire tracks near the home. Eight days after the murders, investigators expanded the crime scene and taped off a parking lot and wooded area behind the house. The search for clues continues

as of the time of this recording. And this is just one of the really tough things about doing a case like this. It's so fresh. It's in the news. Things are happening. So we're not going to have all of the details. We only have what police have

released, what's been reported on, you know, it could very well be that police have some information that they're currently working that's just not publicly known. Yeah, and I think searching for the murder weapon is probably like searching for the proverbial needle and haystack. It could be any place. It could be in the trash someplace. It could be in a woods. It could be in a nearby creek or the killer may not have discarded it at all. So I think trying to find that weapon is an important thing for police, but it may be something that's nearly impossible to do. But you know a lot of people online are jumping on this dumpster. You know, how did police allow this dumpster to be picked up and its contents emptied in at a dump site?

Okay. Searching a dumpster is one thing. But searching an entire dump site, that's a lot tougher. As a spotlight was shined on the Moscow community, some disturbing incidents leading up to the murders came to light. One couple living in Moscow just three miles from the home on King Road spoke to the media about a terrible experience they had gone through. Pam and Jim Colbert say that their 12-year-old mini Australian Shepherd Buddy was killed on October 21st. His throat had been cut and he had been skinned. Pam Colbert told the Daily Mail,

We let Buddy out and somebody must have been waiting out there. Buddy never leaves the yard, but this person grabbed Buddy. Shortly before Buddy's death, Jim found a rabbit with its head slaced open. Pam said, we always left our doors open. Not anymore. None of it makes sense. Authorities, when asked about the cruel murder of the Colbert's dog Buddy, said that they currently have no reason to believe the incidents are connected.

But this is something else that people online have brought up. If you don't know who the killer is, in either case, how do you know they aren't connected? Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. You know, it's very similar to the statement put out that nobody else needs to be fearful. There's no danger. Okay, how do we know these things? Or are we just trying to calm the public, which may very well be the case?

You know, we said right up front that we were going to have to talk about this disturbing incident. And it is very disturbing. We have four people who were murdered, and that is tragic. It's also tragic what happened to this dog. I don't know what's more frightening if there's one deranged person out there that they're capable of doing this to this dog and killing these four students, or if there's two people out there in that area that are capable of doing these kinds of things, then that's not a good thing either.

A few weeks prior to the murders on September 12th, the university, of Idaho issued a vandal alert, an announcement to those affiliated with the campus. Staff and students were warned that a man 18 to 22 dressed all in black with a black baseball hat had threatened students who were walking to Greek road between the steam plant parking lot and the student recreation center on Paradise Path before riding off on a mountain bike. The man also wearing a blue backpack and a pair of glasses was angry that the students had not made room for him on the path. Authorities apparently identified and made contact with the man.

When he turned himself in after the vandal alert, he was not a student and was not affiliated in any way with the university. It's unknown whether he's being looked at by police in the murder investigation. There was also a report of a man threatening people with a knife, but it's unclear whether that person is the same person related to the vandal alert or not. Some people have stated that leading up to the murders, there were one or more prowling incidents in the area. But it's possible that stories are simply getting twisted and that the alleged prowling activity is actually connected to the vandal alert. One incident that was certainly

alarming happened on November 21st, well after the murders. It was reported that two young women were chased by a man in Moscow. Around 5.15 p.m., the woman walked from their home to their car parked nearby. There was a man in the front passenger seat of their car, and as they approached and saw him, he jumped out of the car and chased him. They called the police as they ran to their friends, and the man ran away. He was gone by the time officers responded. Moscow police have stated that the incident was unfounded, but eyewitnesses back up the claim made by these two women. If it happened, whether or not this guy was the killer, it's still troubling. Well, certainly more, if you'd have to say, there's a lot of strange.

incidents that occurred before the murders. This one apparently occurred after. Now, is that because they were brought to light because of the murders and you just have these things and towns happen, you know, all across the country? I'm going to go back to this last incident and police calling it unfounded. That seemed like a strange word to me. It kind of jumped out because what does that really mean. You know, I take it to mean that they don't believe it happened, but you have witnesses who back up the claim by these two women. So it didn't seem a little strange to me that they use that word. I think unless there's something clear that disputes what these women claim, you have to believe them, and you have to check it out. And even if it's not related to the murders,

it's worth looking into. Yeah, it seems like we've done a lot of cases. It seems like we've done a lot of cases, whether it's you and I here on criminology or Gibby and I on TCAT, where police don't seem to believe people. And it's really before evidence comes out that they're not believable or that they shouldn't be believed. And a lot of times evidence comes out later that it really did happen. I don't understand that way of thinking by some police departments, almost like, you know, jumping to not believing rather than just saying, well, we're going to continue to look into it. Like you said, until evidence comes out that these people are not telling the truth, why would they not be believed? The lack of an arrest and the murders has led to a lot of speculation

and theories because of the type of weapon, possibly being this K-bar or Rambo-style knife and the apparent ease with which the killer murdered four people without. without alerting anyone else. Many people believe the killer has practice with stealth and weapons. That could mean that this person is ex-military. People have theorized that perhaps an angry neighbor had a grudge of some sort, or maybe someone who had applied to be a roommate and didn't get picked, had the grudge. Maybe the killer was a jilted or jealous suitor.

Speaking of suitors, Kaylee and Madison both called Kaylee's ex-boyfriend Jack, after they got home from the food truck. Multiple calls were placed from both of their phones to Jack's phone between 226 a.m. and 252 a.m. Seven from Kaylee and three from Madison. He didn't answer any of their calls. Kaylee also texted him multiple times. She wanted him to come over and see her.

One of the texts mentions Jack and Kaylee's dog, a golden doodle named Murphy, who was home with Kaylee. It's unknown where exactly Murphy was at the time of the murderers, inside the home or outside running loose, but he was unharmed, and he's now with Kaylee's family. People have wondered if Murphy barked at all during the attacks. If Ethan and Zanna were attacked first, and Murphy heard the commotion,

maybe he barked, and that's why the suspect went upstairs and attacked Kaylee and Madison, but it's speculation. Kaylee's parents, Steve and Christy Gonzalez, do not believe that Kaylee's ex-boyfriend Jack was involved in the murders in any way. They told the New York Post, We are supporting him, and we know in our hearts, in our minds and our souls, and the depth of our soul, Jack is hurting. They added, they're wasting their time with Jack. Jack is just as distraught as we are.

Jack is our family. Though she and Jack had broken up, Kaylee's parents say they had a good relationship and that their break was mutual and amicable. The family told the paper, they would have eventually been married and they would have eventually had children. And I think you see this in a lot of cases where there's a boyfriend or even an ex-boyfriend or husband, ex-husband, obviously they're going to be looked at. Please have to look at them. It's interesting to me to see how the family of a victim speaks about them through

the media. You know, here clearly, Steve and Christy are 100% sure that Jack didn't have anything to do with these murders. They're adamant about it in talking to the media. And a lot of times that turns out to be true in cases that we do. But every now and then, right, the family comes out in complete support of a current or an ex-husband slash boyfriend and they turn out to be wrong. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here in this case. I'm just pointing it out. Yeah. And a lot of times, The cases we talk about, there's someone that's harmed or threatened, and the ex is looked at with suspicion by the family. The relationship was bad.

It ended badly. Maybe the boyfriend didn't take the breakup well. But in this case, it's the complete opposite. The family seems very supportive of him. The most recent theory that police seem to believe is that the murders happened between 3 and 4 a.m. Authorities believe the students were likely asleep when they were attacked. This leaves a very tight timeline for the killer's strike, since at least Kaylee was up at 252, calling her ex-boyfriend.

Zana's parents last heard from her around midnight. Police are currently doing interviews, reviewing tips, and combing through surveillance footage from area homes and businesses hoping to solve the case and get a killer off the street. As part of their investigation, they've recovered over 100 pieces of what they call evidence and taken upwards of a thousand photographs of the scene. Well, this comes up in a lot of cases we do, especially, you know, more recent cases. But the availability of surveillance footage continues to grow and grow. I mean, right?

You said it. Area homes, not just businesses. People have, you know, these doorbell cameras. They have their own security cameras now. Many people have that. And it's catching things that are helping to solve crimes. The fallout from the murders continues as the community looks over their shoulders. On November 14th, classes at the University of Idaho were canceled.

Students were allowed to go on Thanksgiving break one week early and do some assignments remotely. University of Idaho President Scott Green shared his statement to students with CNN, saying, students, you are encouraged to do what is right for you. Whether this is going home early or staying in class, you have our students. support. This is very accommodating of the university, but it also may mean that the killer could leave Moscow along with everyone else and blend right in without looking suspicious for leaving town right after the murders because everyone else was leaving. And that would be true more especially if this person was a student. You know, could police maybe make a connection

if a student all of a sudden left while most of the students stayed, possibly. But when you kind of have a mass exodus, that would be much, much harder. But I think as a university, what are you going to do? I know as a parent, I would be calling my daughter and saying, hey, get home. I want you here with me. And I think a lot of parents have that same opinion because the school, from what I've heard, or when the break ends and people are returned from holiday, they're going to give them the option to do their schooling from remote access

if they need to, if they feel more comfortable that way. So it's good to see that the school is accommodating them and their security concerns. Investigators walked back their earlier statement that the community was not at risk, with Moscow Police Department Chief James Frye stating at a press conference, we cannot say there's no threat to the community. please stay vigilant, report any suspicious activity, and be aware of your surroundings at all times.

Well, number one, I think that's something people should do all the time. But I do think it's a good thing that they kind of corrected this because I think you're doing the public a disservice to say, unless you're absolutely 100% sure, there's no danger. you're giving people a false sense of security. Now, this guy corrected it, and I do think that's a good thing. Yeah, and I think it's sad that it takes sometimes a tragedy like this to happen for people to sort of get reminded about how important it is to be alert as to their surroundings and their security and making sure their doors are locked. Yeah, it is sad, but we see that in so many cases, right?

we even heard, you know, the one couple say, we normally left our doors unlocked, but no longer after the incident with their dog. A statement released by Kaylee's family on Twitter on behalf of Kaylee and Madison read, they were smart, they were vigilant, they were careful. And this all still happened. Kaylee's older sister, Olivia Stevenson, told CNN, my sister was always a door locker. But she explained that the front door on the lower level had a keypad, which many people knew the code to. This was the party house, and it's been generation. So I won't say they were very private with that coat. Alicia added, no one is in custody, and that means no one is safe.

The identity of the killer is not the only thing missing here after this tragedy. People are missing the victims in this case. Zana, a junior, and Madison, a senior, majored in marketing, and were members of Pi Beta Phi. Kali, a senior, majored in general studies, and was a member of Alpha Phi. Ethan, a freshman, and member of Sigma Chi, majored in recreation, sport, and tourism management. Madison and Zana worked at the Mad Greek restaurant in downtown Moscow. Kaylee's mother doesn't want to have a memorial service for the girls until their killer's been caught, posting on Facebook. It makes me sick that this person could.

could be standing there right behind us. Kaylee's aunt added, what the public needs to know is that there's someone out there that has violently killed four people and that no matter who died first or second or last, they're gone. And we need to get that person now before it's too late for anyone else to suffer what we are suffering

for the rest of our lives. The families of the victims in this case do have hope for a resolution. Steve Gonzalez told the New York Post. They're telling us that there's so much evidence. that it's going to take a lot of time to process it all. He added, this person was sloppy. Still, despite any mistakes made by the killer,

no one is in custody as of now and no suspects have been named. Investigators have interviewed almost 100 people and received nearly 600 tips so far. If you have any information on the murders of Zana Kronotel, Ethan Schapen, Kaley Gonzalez, and Madison Mogan. Please call the Moscow Police Department at 208-883-7180 or email tipline at c. I.moscow.org.

You can send relevant photos or videos through that email. Though the Moscow Police Department is in charge of the investigation, the Idaho State Police and the FBI are assisting. The investigation is still ongoing and more information is slowly trickling. out every day. This is truly a case that may have breaking news coming out, maybe before this episode even airs. So we'll all have to stay tuned for updates as they happen. One of the most recent developments is that police are looking into a possible connection between this case and the double stabbing of Travis and Jamelan Juton in Salem, Oregon in August last year. Yeah, I mean, and that is breaking breaking because it came out just as you and I were about

ready to record the episode. So, you know, that is one of the things that is going to happen when we cover a case that is so recent. And I want to go back to interviewing 100 people, receiving 600 tips. And the family saying that police are telling them they have a lot of evidence, but it's going to take some time to process it. And I understand that completely. Right? this is not an episode of CSI where there's a crime and by the end of the hour, we're going to know who did it and the police are going to be able to give out every single detail.

Crimes in real life don't get solved like that. They can. Things can happen very quickly. But most crimes, it takes some time, even when there is a ton of evidence. Police need to wade through it and make sure that. that they have the right person. And hopefully they do catch this person or people as soon as possible, you know, for the sake of the families of the victims and for the community because they're,

as we talked about, they're on edge. They're frightened. And I'm sure they don't want to be looking over their shoulders for the foreseeable future. Well, we mentioned it early in the episode, but, you know, unfortunately, there's been a lot of bad things happening recently on college campuses. So, you know, obviously the students at this university are worried, but I think students in general probably, you know, across the country are a little concerned, a little on edge because there seems to be a rash of really bad things happening at universities. It's a scary proposition. But that's it for our episode on the Moscow murders.

as you said, Morf, this is one that I think everyone will be keeping an eye on to see what information gets released. And we're all hoping for a resolution in this case. If you love the show, but you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, give us a review, leave a five-star rating. But keep telling your friends, word of mouth about the podcast really helps us out. If you want to find us on social media, we'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Twitter with a handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by searching for Criminology Podcast or by joining our Facebook discussion group, Criminology Podcasts discussion and fans.

So that's it for another episode of Criminology. But we'll be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So for Mike and Morph. We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.