Criminology - The Murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman Part 2

Episode Date: September 3, 2023

The 1994 murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman turned into the trial of the century. The murders were brutal and heartbreaking. But, the fact that Nicole Brown was married to famed football star O.J. Simpson drew massive media attention to the murders. Everything exploded when police began to zero in on O.J. as the possible murderer. Join Mike and Morf for part 2 of 2 on the murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman. To say that the case at the time made huge headlines would be an understatement, and Simpson's acquittal at the conclusion of the trial shocked many people. In this second and last part, we discuss the infamous Bronco chase, the trial, and the fallout. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Listener discretion is advised. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 272 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Mr. Morford. Man, what are you doing down there in Florida? Are you bracing a little bit? We're bracing. You know, it seems like we're always bracing this time of year just in case, you know, obviously last time I took a direct hit here where I live. This time, this storm that's coming through is going to make landfall probably three hours north of me up past Tampa. So, you know, just being safe.

And I hope everyone that's out there in the strike zone here is going to batten down the hatches and comes out of this. Okay. Yeah, you know, you and I talk about a lot of scary things, right, on our criminology episodes. But if you think about it, there's really not much scarier than Mother Nature. I mean, some of these storms can be just so devastating. So I'm with you. I hope everybody stays safe and gets through this one. All right, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

We had Teneal Walters, Bella Doleski, Abigail Blum, and Corinza McClure. So a lot of great new support. We really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks to everyone that takes the time to support the show. It means a lot to us. And for anyone out there that would like to, you can go to patreon.com. slash criminology to sign up. All right. So let's burst right into this episode.

Last week, we dove into the first part of our coverage of the 1994 murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. We talked about what police found, both at the crime scene at Nicole's residence where they were killed. But we also looked at the things that were found at O.J. Simpson's residence, things that made police suspect him of the murder. We also talked about some of the prior domestic violence. incidents between Nicole and OJ and got a rundown of what he said happened.

The night his ex-wife was killed. If you're somehow listening to part two of this case now and haven't listened to part one yet, hit that pause button, go back, listen to part one first because we're picking up where we left off last week. And more if we talked in last week's episode about, you know, just what a big case this was and and really still is, people still talk about it a lot, in the research, as we were going through it, there were some things that I had forgotten.

And one of them that really jumped out at me was the extent of the domestic violence. I knew it was there. I remembered it, but I didn't remember, or maybe I didn't pay enough attention at the time to just how much there was. Yeah, I think there was a clear history of it. And I remember, you know, just some of the images from back then

were flashing through my mind when we were talking about it. And I remember seeing Nicole's face, you know, she had, what was it, swollen eye or a fat lip? I can't remember what it was. But you could tell she had been, it looked like she had been struck in one of the photos. But then I also, like you had forgotten the incident where O.J. had spied on Nicole and her new boyfriend at the time. So there was that stalking level to it to,

in addition to the domestic abuse. And I'm sure we'll talk more about it, you know, as we go through the episode, I just kind of wanted to start off this episode talking about it because it really jumped out of me. And, you know, maybe it plays the difference between 1994 and 2000,

I mean, it is almost 30 years ago. So you look at that time period and see, you know, how far have we come in recognizing domestic violence and what do we have in place now? And I just think there's a lot more knowledge today on a lot of different subjects. And so, you know, as we go through some of these older cases, some of that knowledge kind of is spotlighted for me, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I think with social media, especially and news that travels at the touch of a button instantly, you hear a lot more about this kind of stuff today than you did even 30 years ago.

I think it's a lot more out in the open and people are shining a light on it and talking about it. So, you know, that's a good thing we've come, you know, some way since then. obviously it's still an issue that happens, but, you know, as we all know, there's, there is help, and we talk about that in a lot of episodes. So with the domestic violence being in the spotlight more, the resources that are out there to help victims of domestic violence, I think, are highlighted a little bit more as well. We also talked about how 25-year-old Ron Goldman was just stopping by Nicole Brown's house the night of June 12, 1994, to return her mother's glasses. She had dropped them when the family was leaving,

as a Luna, the restaurant Ron worked at, which was just 10 minutes away. A quick stop to do something nice seemed to have turned into a fight for his life when Ron walked up on someone attacking Nicole. The surprised attacker, slashing with a knife, was eventually able to overpower Ron, who was unarmed and carrying his keys, a beeper, and an envelope with a pair of eyeglasses inside. A murder in the quiet and upscale Brentwood area would have made the news, no doubt anyway, but OJ Simpson's X-Y being one of the victims fueled the media attention even more. Word spread quickly all day on June 13th. Ron Goldman's answering machine filled up. Multiple friends had been watching the news and heard about the murders of Nicole and a man named

Ronald Goldman. They left messages on his machine begging to hear that it was just a coincidence and he wasn't the man who had been killed. Around 5 p.m. Ron's mother, Patty, returned an urgent answering machine message from John DeBello, who worked at Mezzaluna. She wondered why his co-workers would be calling her, but she called him back anyway. He asked her if she knew where Ron was. But Patty, living in Agora, California, over 20 miles away, didn't know where he was. John explained that Ron was supposed to come into work that morning, but he hadn't shown up. This upset Patty, who had been worried by an urgent message, but it turned out that Ron

had just been late to work. When Patty returned this call, she didn't know that her son was dead. According to the Washington Post, she scalded John DeBello when she called him back saying, how dare you call our house and leave such a pressing urgent message? I thought something had, God forbid, happened or wrong. Don't ever do that to us again. John apologized and they hung up. Not 30 seconds later, someone else called Patty.

It was Claudia Ratcliffe from the coroner's office calling to inform Patty that her son was dead. So more if this is the worst news imaginable for Patty, right? Her son is dead. But I want to go back to, you know, this message. and how she kind of reacts to it. And you can understand her reaction because she doesn't know what's going on. She doesn't know what's happened. So, you know, without that knowledge, she's reacting to, you know, kind of, oh, my gosh,

why are you acting like something really bad has happened when all you're telling me is that Ron is late for work? And this is something that I could see happening to myself, you know, both of my daughters are out of the house. I don't know what they're doing from minute to minute, from hour to hour. So I wouldn't have the knowledge of what exactly is going on. I'm not even talking about a situation like this, obviously, hopefully never. But if somebody called and left a message and they sounded frantic or they sounded, you know, very

urgent, and then I called them and they said, hey, your daughter didn't show up for work, I wouldn't have that that same level of frenzy, franticness, because I just, I don't have the context to go along with it. And I'm sure John meant well, but obviously Patty was upset by it. Maybe she thought he was overreacting to Ron just being late. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. In the mid-90s, it wasn't very easy to just know where someone was. So John wondering where Ron was, you know, he didn't have any apps to track him.

He couldn't text him. He couldn't check social media. It was one of the situations where you sort of have to just make calls and hopefully get an answer, get some information. I think that's what he was trying to do. But what's really sad is that she's got this roller coaster of emotion. She hangs up with him. And then 30 seconds later, she is getting a call from an official telling her that Ron is

indeed dead. so her emotions must have just been up and down during those moments. When Kim Goldman, Ron's sister, got home from work at around 6 p.m., her boyfriend Joe Cassiana, told her to call her dad. She said she would get around to it, but he urged her multiple times to do it quickly. Joe's tone was urgent. He told her to sit next to him on the bed as she called her father. That's when he broke the news to her, sending her into what she told the Washington Post

was a bottomless black tunnel. She frantically started to pack. She lived in San Francisco and wanted to make it to L.A. that night to be there for her family. Her body packed, but her brain didn't. In the memoir, his name is Ron, our search for justice, written by the Goldman family. Kim said she threw dozens of pieces of underwear and nothing else into a suitcase to head to Southern California to be with her family. It's clear that she was shocked by the devastating news and wasn't processing it fully. And I think this is the sort of situation that unless somebody has gone through it, you don't know how you're going to react.

You know, how does your mind process this knowledge? And you can see, you know, obviously that Kim wasn't processing everything, wasn't fully aware. It sounds like everything that she was even doing, only throwing underwear in the suitcase and just not not really functional. And I can understand her wanting to be there with her family, too, even though there's nothing she can do at this point. Her brother's already gone. But, you know, maybe just feeling like she can be there to support them, maybe find out what happened, learn more details. It's got to be a helpless feeling to be, even if you're in another part of California, you're still not right there with them in person. So there's a big difference. And I think she was just wanting to get there so bad.

She wasn't even preparing to get there properly. on June 14th, Nicole Brown's autopsy was completed. Her cause of death was from multiple sharp force injuries, including at least six stab wounds to her neck and scalp. She had defensive wounds on her hands and a gash across her neck that cut both of her carotid arteries. She had blunt force injury to her head too, causing a hemorrhage in the area between her skull and scalp.

She could have been hit or maybe pushed. and then hit her head against something. Ronald Goldman's autopsy was also completed on the 14th. His cause of death was also multiple sharp force injuries. He had been stabbed in the neck and head multiple times. He also had suffered multiple stab wounds in the chest, causing his lung to collapse. Ron also had defensive wounds on his forearms and on his hands,

like Nicole did. He had multiple cuts on his hands. His forearms were bruised. as if he had been blocking blows from his killer. Ron, a third degree black belt and karate, had fought the attacker hard. The front of his shirt and its sleeves had slits in them. It had been pulled up, exposing his back and stomach during the struggle.

His jeans had been torn. The knife used to attack him had also damaged his clothing. Sadly, it seems that Ron Goldman had been blindsided or surprised. by his killer and never had a real chance to defend himself. Perhaps if he wasn't surprised, his karate skills may have helped him fend off his attacker. Medical examiner theorized that both Nicole and Ron were slain with a single-bladed six-inch knife. And I want to go back to, you know, Ron and being a third-degree black belt and karate,

that's no joke. I mean, that takes years and years of practice and training to achieve that rank. So no doubt he was pretty proficient in defending himself. And it sounds like he did to some extent, but it seems as though the element of surprise might have taken some of that ability to defend himself away. I mean, I think at least that's the thought. Yeah, we don't know exactly. what unfolded, most of the time I think that a third-degree black belt would be able to defeat

someone that was attacking them, or at least defend themselves enough to get away. And in this case, Ron didn't. So I wonder if that indicates, you know, the element of surprise that Ron just really never had a chance to fully use all of his skills to defend himself, or does it mean that he did and the attacker was just bigger and stronger and overpowered him somehow? Yeah, I think these are all There was no blood found on Nicole's bare feet, suggesting that she had been attacked first and was already lying on the ground when Ron was attacked. There were gouge marks in the dirt near his body, possibly from him planting his feet as he struggled. It seemed like maybe Nicole had been waiting for Ron.

She was probably going to get the glasses from him, thank him, and then go inside to relax in her bath that was waiting. Police theorized that someone had surprised Nicole, possibly waiting for her in the dark courtyard and slammed her into the wall, causing the abrasion on her scalp. After at least the first few blows to Nicole with something sharp, Ron arrived to drop off the eyeglasses. With his key still in his hand, he entered the courtyard, stumbling upon the attacker who he apparently tried to fight. Evidence from the crime scene at Nicole's and from O.J. Simpson's house was tested. Most of it led right back to O.J. Simpson. The blood drops at

Nicole's house leading to the back gate was found to be O.J. Simpson's blood. It seemed obvious to detectives that he had cut his hand during the attack and then continued to bleed as he fled the home. The blood on the glove found behind Cato Calen's guest house matched Ron Goldman's DNA. Blood on a sock found inside OJ Simpson's bedroom at the Rockingham property matched Nicole's blood. The blood seen in the Bronco was a mixture of Ron, Nicole, and OJ's blood. The knit cap found at Nicole's had Akita hairs from her dog, Cato, multiple hairs consistent with OJ Simpson's hair, fibers consistent with the carpet in the Bronco, as well as fibers consistent with the lining of both leather gloves.

On Ron Goldman's shirt, there were Akita hairs, multiple strands of hair from Nicole, torn fibers consistent with Nicole's dress, as well as fibers consistent with the lining of both gloves and the knit cap. It's possible that the fibers from Nicole's dress were still on the knife when the killer stabbed Ron. Cato, the Akita, may have been frantic at the scene, shedding on Ron's shirt after he was already on the ground, or maybe the dog was present for the attack. Another damning piece of evidence was that O.J. Simpson had been photographed previously in public wearing Bruno Magley shoes, the unique kind that made the large print found in Nicole's blood at her home. So more, I mean, this is a lot to dissect. And when you think about all of this blood

being tested, it really starts to stand out. Right. OJ's blood is found at. And, you think about, Nicole's. It's found on, you know, the glove. And then the blood on the Bronco being a mixture of Ron Nicole and OJ's blood to me is is a very big deal. You just kind of look at what we've laid out just in this little part here. And you would think, oh my gosh, this doesn't look good for OJ Simpson. And I'm sure that's what the police thought as well. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, seems like a real mountain of evidence that was piling up. You've got, again, the glove found at Nicole's that matches one found at OJ's. You've got him owning a pair of these shoes, the same kind of shoe that left the print found at Nichols. So the evidence seemed pretty overwhelming,

and I'm sure the police thought they were building a strong case. We also mentioned DNA here, and some of that blood that was found behind Cato's had Ron Goldman's DNA on it. So DNA was still, even though it was being used by this point, it wasn't as widespread in law enforcement and solving cases the way it is today. So I think that was something big at the time, the use of DNA to link Ron Goldman to this glove that's found on the OJ's property. Yeah, the DNA is going to be huge at trial, right? What does the DNA science really mean? What does it show? but you mentioned a mountain of evidence,

and it really does seem like that. I mean, just take the Bruno Magley shoes, expensive shoes. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency. We just walked in the door, and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible.

a new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. These are not a pair of new balances that you can buy anywhere or that anyone can afford. These are a very specific, you know, type of shoe. But as we'll get into this mountain of evidence is going to be, you know, contested by the defense. What does it mean? Where did it come from? Who put it there? I mean, you know, everyone knows kind of where we're, we're heading. If you love chilling mysteries, unsolved cases,

and a touch of mom style humor, moms and mysteries is the podcast you've been searching for. Hey guys, I'm Mandy. And I'm Melissa. Join us every Tuesday for moms and mysteries, your gateway to gripping, well-researched true crime stories. Each week, we deep dive into a variety of mind-boggling cases as we shed light on everything from heist to whodontas. We're your go-to podcast for Mysteries with a Motherly Touch. Subscribe now to Moms and Mysteries wherever you get your podcast. The case against O.J. Simpson looked even stronger. When police learned that in 1990, Nicole had bought a pair of dark cashmere line,

Aeris Light Leather gloves, size extra large, at Bloomingdale's in New York. The bloody gloves found at both Nicole's and OJ's were both Aris Light Sliven. size extra large. Bloomingdale's only sold 240 pairs of extra large heiress light gloves that year. During their interview with OJ, detectives had gotten him to admit that when he isn't dropping off or picking up their children, he parks his car at the back of the property. This would align with the blood found on the back gate and the trail leading to the back of the house. The evidence against OJ seemed to be piling up, and police finally felt that they had enough to arrest him, and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

Prosecutor Marsha Clark called the blood evidence, a trail of blood from Bundy through his own Ford Bronco and into his house on Rockingham. And just break down that statement by Marsha Clark, who, you know, let's face it, kind of became a celebrity in her own right due to this trial. You would think that at this point, prosecutors had to be feeling pretty good.

You know, blood evidence at Bundy. leading, you know, through this back gate to the Ford Bronco, which he then drove to Rockingham. And then some of that evidence is found outside and inside of the Rockingham home. Seems to be connecting pretty well. Yeah, there's certainly many cases that prosecutors have had to take on with a lot less evidence than we're seeing here. So, you know, I think you're right. The evidence seemed to make for a pretty strong case. On June 16th, Nicole's funeral was held.

It wouldn't be until May of the next year that Ron's grave would be marked with a granite gravestone and unveiled in a ceremony, as is Jewish tradition. On June 17th, Simpson was officially charged with two counts of murder. He was supposed to turn himself in at 11 a.m. that morning. but he didn't. Instead, he went to the home of attorney Robert Kardashian, a friend of OJ's from his days at USC. While there, OJ held a 357 magnum to his head and told Al Cowlings, a childhood friend of his, that he wanted to go see his mother. Cowlings was there because Simpson had been apparently suicidal that morning and he was worried about OJ. They wanted to diffuse the situation.

sitting in young Chloe Kardashian's bedroom, Robert told OJ that a child's room wasn't an appropriate place to take his life, giving him more time to think about his decision and time for Cowlings to get there to his home in Encino, north of Brentwood. OJ left the home in a White Ford Bronco driven by Cowlings. This was a second White Ford Bronco, not the one that detectives had found. blood on. And, you know, I think the Kardashian name being attached to this trial of the century

is also a very interesting aspect. I mean, at the time, I don't know how many people knew who Robert Kardashian was until the actual trial. They certainly didn't know who Chloe was, Kim, Courtney, any of the children, but no doubt years later, they would get to know them all. My wife was a big fan of the show. She used to make me watch it all the time. I wasn't, admittedly, such a big fan of it, but there's no doubt that the Kardashian name became like a brand, an icon, all to itself. So it's, it's interesting. interesting how things transpire. And we're talking about OJ sitting in young Chloe Kardashian's bedroom thinking about ending his life. Yeah, it makes you wonder if this story was as big

as it was back then, how big would it be if it unfolded today when the Kardashian name is such a well-known household name? It would probably be made for an even bigger media circus. Yeah, I mean, it was huge at the time. And we've already talked about it, right? The media circus surrounding this case was huge. But there's a thought that I have that it would be even bigger today. You know, there's more outlets. You've mentioned social media on a number of occasions. Can you imagine Twitter or X, I guess, as it's called now. It might have blown up when all of this was unfolding. Even like every day of the trial. It might have blown up social media, literally blown it up. At a press conference that evening, Robert Kardashian read the letter that O.J. Simpson had left that morning.

It's widely been believed to have been a suicide letter. It began, I have nothing to do in Nicole's murder. I loved her. Always have and always will. If we had a problem, it's because I loved her so much. In the letter, OJ wrote about the relationship, which he called Rocky, but blamed Nicole for that, saying, at times I have felt like a battered husband or boyfriend, but I loved her. Make that clear to everyone.

And I would take whatever took to make it work. Toward the end of the letter, OJ began to close with, Don't feel sorry for me. I've had a great life, great friends. Please think of the real OJ and not this lost person. So there's one thing in particular from that letter that really stands out to me. And it's the line, if we had a problem, It's because I loved her so much.

More of how many times have we heard something along these lines when it comes to, you know, a man mistreating his wife? And I'm talking about, you know, domestic violence, physical, emotional. But the only reason I do this is because I love her so much. We've heard that. And I'll never understand it. It has never made sense to me. If you love someone as much as you claim, how could you treat them like that?

Yeah, and another thing that jumps out to me is that O.J. called himself a victim, that he's a battered husband sort of shifting the blame to Nicole. And then what's absent in this letter is a lack of sadness for what happened. It doesn't say anything in there. Like, I can't believe this happened to Nicole, the mother of my children. it doesn't really seem to reflect any remorse that she's gone, that she was brutally murdered, even if it was somebody else and not OJ,

where's the compassion for her? I don't see any of that in this letter, really. Wow, that's a great point because it does seem as though he's making this all about himself. And maybe that's just the type of guy that OJ is. I have no idea. I think a lot of celebrities,

a lot of big stars. maybe get to that point where, you know, they've been coddled. They've been treated in a way that, you know, just makes them believe that they're kind of the center of the universe. Think about OJ as an athlete, probably told throughout his life. You know, you're the best. You're the leader. You're the one person on the team that makes everything go.

So I get that feeling from it too. And I think it's a really good point. And some people might say there's a hint of narcissism in there. And maybe even more than just a hint. Just 51 minutes after Kardashian began reading that letter, OJ Simpson called 911. He claimed he was holding a gun to his head in the back of the Bronco being driven by Callings. He said, I want to go with the Cole. That's all I want to do.

That's all I've been trying to do. A phone trace gave away his location. and CHP officers quickly headed to the five freeway in Santa Ana south of Los Angeles. Cowlings driving with OJ as a passenger, then led a fleet of police cars on a very slow 60-mile chase. People line the sides of the freeway, standing on the shoulder, waving as Simpson passed. This is arguably the most famous police pursuit in history. and the world watched. It's been reported that 95 million people tuned into the news that evening as the white

Bronco drove on the freeways of Southern California, terrified that OJ would take his own life, but also highly entertained. People were so glued to the television that the pizza places that delivered, like dominoes saw surges in their orders. people didn't want to even go get food. They didn't want to miss anything that was about to happen. Yeah, that 95 million people watching is really huge. But again, I go back to this as before social media.

So just to imagine what those numbers would have been had people heard about this on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, whatever, TikTok, that 95 million might have been. triple that. And obviously there's a lot more channels today, too, to watch news on. So that 95 million number might have been a lot more than that if this happened today. Al Cowlings also called 911, telling the authorities that O.J. Simpson just wanted to see his mom and asked officers to let him get there safely. People drove toward the freeways trying to catch a sight of the action. It was a complete circus, and eventually Cowlings just drove back to the Rockingham Estate. For almost an hour, he remained in the car in the driveway as bystanders gathered outside,

and officers tried to negotiate with OJ. At 8.47 p.m., O.J. gave up and put down the gun and allowed officers to take him into custody before he was driven to jail. The media was having a field day over the murders and the Bronco chase. OJ's trial for the murders of Nicole and Ron began on January 24, 1995. And it was no surprise that the trial was front and center in the media. People all across the country were glued to their TVs. And this was because Judge Lansito, who was presiding over the trial, made the decision

to allow cameras in the courtroom. That was huge because it meant that anyone and everyone could see everything that happened inside that courtroom. And a lot of people did. A lot of people tuned in. I think more of a lot of people called off work on certain days just to make sure that they didn't miss it. O.J. Simpson had a lot of people thought he was guilty, but he also had his share of supporters. At trial, O.J. Simpson was represented by what has been called the dream team, some of the most well known and respected attorneys in the country. The team included Robert Shapiro, Johnny Cochran, Carl Douglas, Sean Chapman, Holly, Gerald Ullman, Robert Kardashian, Alan Dershowitz, F. Lee Bailey, Barry Shack,

Peter Newfeld, Robert Blazier, and William Thompson. Now, it is very expensive to hire a defense attorney. You know what's even more expensive? Hiring, hiring like 10 or 12 of some of the best in the country. Now, OJ was wealthy. He could afford it, but man, you know, when they say dream team, it's pretty fitting. I mean, look at some of the names on this list. Flee Bailey, you know, Barry Shaq, who it's kind of, you know, heavily involved in the Innocence Project.

Most people will remember Robert Shapiro and Johnny Cochran. but then even some of the lesser known names, you know, really went on to have amazing careers. Yeah, I don't think there's any way that this team could have been put together by the average Joe that's facing trial for murder, you know, and most people, without that wealth, without that celebrity status, you're never going to put a team like this together to defend you if you find yourself in this position. Now, on the other side, prosecuting the case was. was Marcia Clark and Christopher Darden.

And they too became celebrities in their own right because of this case. But look at these two people accomplished. I'm sure they were very good at what they did, but going up against this dream team. It's almost like back in high school when the freshman team on basketball would scrimmage diversity. Okay, pretty tough sledding. Now, I'm sure the prosecution felt fairly good about the evidence that they had and more if we're not going to dive into the trial. I mean, I feel as though we could probably do four or five episodes alone on the trial and the ends and outs and the intricacies of it. it would just get really bogged down.

And I'm sure there are some out there to listen to if you really want to go through the trial line by line. The trial lasted for 11 months. So there were lots of details, lots of witnesses, lots of things to get into that would, as you mentioned, you would need a whole separate set of episodes just to go through the entire trial. Despite what seemed like a cut and dry. case to many with a mountain of evidence seemingly implicating O.J. Simpson after the 11-month trial.

On October 3rd, 1995, O.J. Simpson was acquitted of all charges. The jury deliberated for just four hours before they found him not guilty of the murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman. What was deemed by many, the trial of the century, was over. And supporters of O.J. Simpson were happy, but a great deal more people were shocked by the verdict none more so than the family's uh Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman and more if I remember a lot of this case I watched a lot of it myself but maybe nothing has stuck with me more than the actual verdict the announcement and you know the media was there they were covering the crowd outside and it was just just so stark the contrast between the O.J. Simpson supporters who were joyous that he had been found

not guilty. And then the other set of people who were shocked that he was acquitted because they felt like the evidence proved he was guilty. But I want to go back to the jury, an 11 month trial. That is a long time to have to sit and listen to testimony, look at evidence. But then you get to deliberation and it only took four hours. What does that tell you? To me, you know, it's almost as if over that 11 months people had by that time, the time that the trial ended, kind of pretty much made up their minds. four hours is not a long time to debate an 11-month trial.

Yeah, that's, that is, you know, I've heard lawyers debate. Is it a good thing or a bad thing when a jury comes back too quickly? But I would venture to guess that neither side that the prosecution nor the defense probably thought they were going to come back that fast after that 11-month trial. And one thing, that verdict when it was read, I don't know about you, but I remember exactly where I was at. I was working at a factory at the time and alongside 300 other people and we had a giant lunchroom that we would all gather in and watch the trial every day at lunch. And when that verdict was read, we were all at lunch and you could hear a pin drop.

There were 300 people in the room and nobody made a sound. And then when the verdict was read, there were sighs and gasp. And then there were people that were actually cheering that were supporters of OJ that were happy that he had been found not guilty. So it's just one of those big moments for me anyways. And I'm sure for a lot of people that you remember where you were at, what you were doing when it happened. But I think what you just mentioned kind of epitomized what happened across the country. Take a room full of people. There were going to be X amount of people who were.

on OJ's side, did not believe that he did it. And then there was going to be a group of people who absolutely believed he did it. The first group was overjoyed, cheering, thought, you know, the system worked. The other side were shocked and disappointed and felt as though the system let them down. The acquittal was attributed to many things and there were mistakes made during the trial. One large mistake that we see discussed often today was allowing the trial to be moved from the Santa Monica Courthouse, which was closest to Brentwood, to the downtown Los Angeles courthouse 20 miles away. The trial was moved because everyone knew to expect a lot of publicity. Throngs of fans trying to attend and plenty of news crews trying to get the scoop.

There had also been a very large earthquake in January 1994 that had damaged parts of the courthouse in Santa Monica. The courthouse in Los Angeles was seen as better. equipped to handle the trial. The verdict has widely been attributed to race relations due to this choice. The jury pool in Santa Monica would have been made up from likely all white jurors due to the demographics of the residents eligible to serve at the courthouse, while the jury pool in downtown Los Angeles saw a few white jurors. In fact, the jury was mostly black. The 12 final jurors, only three were of a different race. This was thought to be favorable to O.J. Simpson. had also just experienced almost a week of unrest due to racial tension,

ignited by the acquittal of four white police officers in the videotaped use of excessive force, a very brutal group beating at gunpoint of Rodney King, an unarmed black man in March of 1991. He had been originally pulled over for speeding, but refused to stop. Also in March 1991, 15-year-old Latasha Harlins, a black teenager, was shot and killed in a convenience store by its owner, who thought she was stealing, even though she had money in her hand when she was shot. Sun Jadu, who had killed Latasha, was found guilty of manslaughter, but was given a suspended sentence, probation, community service, and a fine and walked free.

Though the killer in this case was not white, it was more proof in the minds of some people that the justice system did not care about black people in Los Angeles. Letting O.J. Simpson walk free was seen by many as payback. We should also point out that 10 of the jurors were female. The fact that a successful black man had divorced his first wife, a black woman, with whom he had children, and then had chosen to marry a white woman, was questioned as a reason that female jurors may not have felt any sympathy toward Nicole. So more of, I don't think there's any doubt that to many people, there was a very real

racial component to, you know, OJ's trial. We talked about some of the things that were going on at the time. The Rodney King beating was huge. Four white police officers were acquitted. People were outraged by that. And then this 15-year-old Latasha Hartley, Orleans being shot and killed. And basically the person walking away with a suspended sentence and probation. But it's this last one that people have brought up. You know, the fact that 10 of the juries were female, did they not see as much compassion for Nicole because of what transpired?

I don't know the answer to that. I just know what some people have speculated on. But all of these things are interesting, including, you know, the trial being moved. You think about the trial happening in Santa Monica versus downtown Los Angeles. Well, obviously the demographics of the jury pool would have been very different. And would the ultimate decision in the case have played out differently if that, had happened. Now, we'd all like to sit here and say or think that none of that should play into it. But I think that would be a, that would be naive. Yeah, I think in a perfect world, you'd have a totally

impartial jury with no, whose decisions aren't influenced in any way by anything going on in their community. But people are human. I think they can't help but have some built in feeling. feelings, emotions, outlooks on things that might help persuade their decision one way or the other. I think it is a really big deal about moving the trial and then the jury selection in particular because both the defense and the... Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset. This season let therapy be part of your spring cleaning. Clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness, and building something better. Grow therapy helps you get there. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 15th,

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The prosecution, when they sit down to look at potential jurors, they're always trying to put a jury together that, for each of them, the prosecution and the defense, they both want to feel like they've got the advantage that are picking the best jurors that are going to side in their favor. And it's sort of a little chess game at the beginning of the trial. But at the end of the day, it seems like both the prosecution and defense were okay with the jury that they picked. So, you know, that jury came to the ultimate decision that it came to. Even though the jury didn't deliberate for long and only asked to see Allen Park's testimony to help them make their decision, only two jurors ever thought that O.J. was guilty in the initial poll they took among themselves.

In the end, it took convincing just those two people. Even Park himself had testified that his boss told him that O.J. usually ran late, possibly helping the jury find out that Simpson hadn't just been sleeping and showering and running late instead of two miles away killing two people. Yeah, as we've talked about, some people believe O.J. Simpson, who never testified and thus never had to tell his side. of the story at trial was innocent. Others believed the jury was just tired. They had been sequestered for 265 days, and they just wanted to go home. Johnny Cochran, one of Simpson's lawyers, was good at attacking the evidence. Without having Simpson on the stand, he just had to create doubt among the jury about the

evidence. The use of DNA in criminal trials was still fairly new. The prosecution's witness offered scientific, jargon and Cochran offered words that people could easily understand. And I think when you talk about the trial of O.J. Simpson, you have to talk about Johnny Cochran. This was a guy who was very charismatic, I think reached people on a certain level, relatable. And a lot of people have said that the prosecutors just didn't come off that way. And then we talk about, you know, the scientific jargon.

And again, we're not going through all the testimony, but this is something that comes up in a lot of cases. You have jurors who are not scientific experts, but you still have experts on the stand kind of talking in their own language. And are they able to make the jury understand what they're trying to say? or is it just all going over their head? And so what should be a very valuable piece of evidence doesn't really translate because the jury doesn't fully understand what you're talking about. I think that's a major point. You need experts who are relatable and or can relate the information that they have to lay

people. And if you don't have that, it really downplays, I think, in a lot of instances, how good the evidence really is. The prosecution made the mistake of going too far sometimes. They were the ones who requested that O.J. Simpson try on the bloody leather gloves collected from both scenes. They thought that the gloves fitting on his hands would make him look guiltier to a jury. Instead, their plan backfired. When OJ tried to get them on, he struggled. He tried to force his hands into them, but he couldn't. It was a major fail for the prosecution, and Johnny Cochran famously said, after

the glove incident, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. The jury made out of Understuard trusted DNA, but they could see the gloves on Simpson's hands right in front of their own eyes. He was wearing latex gloves underneath the leather gloves to preserve the evidence, and the gloves

had shrunk from the wet blood drying. OJ's defense team was also accused of telling him to stop taking his arthritis medication, so his hands would swell up. But still, it resonated. Almost 30 years later, the glove line is still relevant in pop culture. And that's one of the scenes from the trial that I can remember so vividly. You know, OJ trying on the glove or gloves. And to me, Morph, and this is just my opinion, it really seems as though he was putting on a show.

I don't know if you remember, but, you know, he's making all these kind of strange faces to kind of emphasize the fact that, you know, I just, I'm trying. I'm trying so hard, but I can't get my hand in this glove. It was almost comical to some degree had it not been for the context of a murder trial where, you know, two people were killed. And I wonder if he was putting those gloves on for the first time. If he was nervous, they were going to slide right in. You have to wonder that. But to me, it goes back to there's an old saying among attorneys, don't ask a question unless you know the answer. And I think this was a case where this was almost like a question, put these gloves on, OJ, and let's see if they fit. And they didn't.

And that was a glaring mistake, I think. on the part of the prosecution because they didn't know what the outcome was going to be. They didn't know how much these gloves had shrunk and how bad it was going to look to a jury that he couldn't get these gloves on that he supposedly were to commit these murders. Well, and let's face it, Marsha Clark and Christopher Darden have taken a lot of shots over the years for what they did, what they didn't do, things that were called mistakes. You know, people who believe that OJ was guilty really kind of let it fly against these two individuals because they were the ones tasked with getting the conviction. And they didn't. The prosecution also chose to call Detective Mark Furman as a witness, though they didn't have to. There were other officers at both the Bundy crime scene and the Rockingham Estate who could have testified but were not called.

Furman did find the glove, but he wasn't the one who photographed it or collected it. The LAPD was scrutinized during this trial due to the recent events in Los Angeles. And the defense was able to raise the issue that the bloody glove could have been planted at the Rockingham Estate by the detectives who went there, specifically the detective who climbed the wall with no warrant, Mark Furman. It was also speculated that any blood, matching Simpson could have been planted since he was required to give a blood sample for comparison. So basically, they had his blood. What could they have done with it?

The defense was able to produce tapes of Mark Furman using the N-word slur multiple times. Someone had called the defense directly and turned the recordings over to them. Furman was asked on the stand whether he had ever used the N-word, and he said no. He ended up being charged with perjury for this in 1996. But even before then, this was devastating. It reinforced the idea that the LAPD had it out for black men, and L.A. County prosecutors would do anything to secure their conviction. Calling Mark Furman as a witness was a mistake,

though no one was aware of the tapes until he had already been put on the stand. Still, Mark Furman could have had another possible motive to target Simpson personally. Furman had responded to a 911 call from the Cole in 1985, but in that incident Simpson wasn't arrested. Could Furman have been looking for an opportunity to take OJ down to make up for failing Nicole in that incident? Many thought it was possible. And no doubt, right? Calling Furman ended up to be a huge mistake for the prosecution.

Now, could the defense have called him? Yeah. I think the answer is yes. And I think they definitely would have called him after the tapes were turned over. I mean, once you have that, then you're going to use it, right, to show to the jury that this isn't the upstanding police officer that he's being made out to be. And I actually do think this was a huge part of the trial. Mark Furman did not come off well. Let's just put it out there.

Yeah, I remember at the time, he was really taking a shalacking in the media. which, you know, here we are years later and I still see him occasionally doing different TV shows. So somehow he was still able to overcome all that negative attention and still consults on different projects. Yeah, which is kind of shocking. But it also, I think in some part is because almost everyone associated with this trial became a quasi-celebrity in some way, whether it was Cato. Kalin, Mark Furman, even though he came off horribly. People still knew who he was. So he has some name recognition. Now, I don't think I would choose him to appear on a show I was producing, but I want to go back more and really talk about this idea of evidence being planted, right?

that was a huge point of emphasis on the part of the defense. Yeah, the police say they found all this blood, but they had OJ's blood. They had blood collected from the other crime scene. Could they have planted it? And I think they did a really good job of kind of putting that in the minds of the jurors. So then when you have a, a Mark Furman who comes off horribly on the stand, which he did, you have the civil unrest that was that was going on. People were at that point viewing police officers in Los Angeles, especially white officers, as getting away with the beating of Rodney King and all kinds of other things. How much of a stretch is it for individuals to think, well, could they,

have planted this blood. I'm not saying they did that. I'm just saying, I think the defense did a really good job of putting that in the mix. You know, all they've really got to do is plant the seed in the minds of the jury and let that take hold. The trial of the century came with the disappointment of a lifetime for the families of Ron and Nicole, not content with the verdict. The Goldman family sued Simpson for the wrongful death of Ron Goldman. In 1997, a different jury found him liable for Ron's death in the civil trial. The outcome was that Simpson owed the Goldman family $33.5 million. Now, they would never see any payments from him. Simpson moved to Florida, where the law states that assets like houses can't be seized for a damages judgment. Neither could his pension

from the NFL. Each decade that passed with the judgment unpaid would see the damages upheld with interest. They did see the proceeds from OJ publishing a book, but that was more of a diversion of money that would have gone to O.J. Simpson. And also the money Simpson was owed after settling his defamation lawsuit against the cosmopolitan hotel in Las Vegas. In 2006, OJ. Simpson was paid $680,000 for an advance on a book called If I Did It. Ghost written by Nicole Brown's neighbor, Pablo Fengeves, who had testified during the criminal trial against O.J. Simpson. His testimony was regarding hearing Nicole's dog Cato barking. The publisher, Regan Books, decided not to publish the book, and the Goldman family sued for the rights to the manuscript. They won. After reading

the manuscript, Fred Goldman explained to Today.com, we view it. as close to an admission, a confession, as is humanly possible. The book describes in detail a hypothetical scenario in which Simpson and an accomplice, Charlie, were both at the scene that night. In 2007, it was published as, If I Did It, Confessions of the Killer. The if placed inside the word, I, is so tiny that it looks like the book is called I Did It. Sadly, this caused a rift between the Browns and the Goldman's, one of many risks ultimately caused by O.J. Simpson. Robert Kardashian, who had been part of O.J.'s defense team and his wife, Chris Jenner, who believed O.J. had killed her dear friend ultimately divorced.

Many people have wondered or theorized why O.J. scenario included a second person. It's been called a conspiracy theory online, but William C. Deere wrote a book called O.J. is innocent and I can prove it, which outlined how it wasn't O.J. Simpson who was responsible, but his son, Jason Simpson. According to Deere, Jason was prescribed depocode, both for seizures he had and also for intermittent explosive disorder, which is characterized by repeated sudden episodes of impulsive, aggressive, violent behavior, or angry verbal outbursts. Just six months before, and Nicole and Ron were murdered. Jason went to the ER because he was hearing voices and was going to rage due to running out of this drug. Still, just four months after that and two months before the

murders, he stopped taking it all together. He had tried to end his life at least three times. Once by stabbing himself, he had attacked multiple girlfriends in the past and during one attack, he'd used a knife to cut off the woman's hair. He had also attacked his bar. He had also attacked his boss for the night. He was a chef, so he would still have and regularly use plenty of not. With Deere's line of thinking, Nicole's change of plans from Jackson's restaurant to Mezzaluna may have triggered an episode due to intermittent explosive disorder. Jason did claim to have an alibi for the time of the murders. He was working. He's clocking out that night was a handwritten entry on his time card, and coworkers claimed he closed up early. But there was nothing

wrong with the restaurant's electronic time card machine to warrant the handwritten entry. There's a photo of Jason wearing a knit cap, much like the one found at the scene. In the photo, he's petting a dog, which is important because the cap found at the scene had hair fibers from a human that was not OJ, as well as animal hair. Maybe it was a hair from his dog, not from Nicole's dog, Cato. There are photos of Jason wearing other identical hats in different colors. It turns out that before O.J. was arrested. He hired representation for his son Jason, though, he had not been contacted or mentioned in any way by the LAPD. When Cowlings and Simpson returned to the Rockingham Estate and the Bronco after that chase, Jason rushed out, trying to open the driver's door. When Cowlings pushed him away through the window, he yelled at him. His body language, captured by news helicopters was very angry.

When the verdict was read and O.J. had been declared not guilty, family members in the courtroom rejoiced their hands in the air. Jason Simpson stared ahead, his brows furrow, until he put his head in his hands and sob. Despite OJ's own history of domestic violence, he had never used a knife, and he was usually incredibly vocal, berating Nicole and trying to break down doors,

not quietly sneaking up on her, except for the times that he was stalking her, standing there appearing through her windows. Not all the fingerprints at the Bundy scene were found to be a match to OJ's. His son Jason's blood, hair, and fingerprints were never taken to be compared. Ron, a third-degree black belt and karate,

had fought for his life, but OJ had been checked out at the police station the very next day and had no bruises on his body, just the cut on his left hand. It's led some to wonder, how could this be possible? Wouldn't OJ have had some injury as a result of a third-degree black belt like Ron defending himself?

A lot of people have ultimately come to the question. Could O.J. Simpson have been protecting his son and was not the killer after all. His youngest daughter with his first wife had drowned when she was just one year old, tragically passing away. Would Simpson now do anything he could to save or protect his children? if any of Deere's theory about Jason Simpson is true, it wouldn't change the fact that Nicole had called 911 eight times out of her fear of OJ. He clearly had a track record of violence towards her and she was afraid of him. So, you know, more of I think we have to break down this

Jason Simpson theory. And we mentioned it, right? It's provided by this guy William Deere who wrote book. Okay. A lot of people write books. But when you write a book like this and you put forth a theory in a very, very infamous case, there's always speculation that obviously that theory is what is going to drive book sales. So you have to think of that. But I really just want to talk about Jason Simpson. Could he have been the killer? I don't know. Does it seem as though the switch from his restaurant to Mezzaluna would be enough to make him want to kill? I know this guy Deere made a big deal about the intermittent explosive disorder.

I don't know much about that. It just seems like somewhat of a stretch that that alone. would have triggered him to want to murder Nicole. I think there's a few possibilities. If OJ Simpson isn't the killer, a lot of people made their minds, I think that he is and just got away with it. But say for a second,

he's not the killer. And say the evidence found at OJ's property wasn't planted by the police, then that leaves a third scenario that the killer wound up coming to that property. So I could see on a lane or an avenue in which somebody else that has a connection to that property could be the killer. And I think what police could have done to just eliminate any questions would have been to get Jason's fingerprints and stuff like that early on to just compare and just check him off the list. Because we mentioned some of the stuff didn't match OJ, not all the evidence.

So, but here we are all these years later still talking about it as a possibility. So I don't think there's any way to go back now and answer those questions. The handwritten time card entry is a little suspicious. I get that. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I think for Jason Simpson to have been the killer. And let's say the lone killer, then you really are into the area of,

the police planting all of the evidence, right? OJ's blood at Nicole's place, the gloves, all of it. I think if you did a poll of people, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to think that most people think OJ did this and got away with it. But if he didn't commit this crime, then somebody else out there did.

And that's a real disservice to Ron and Nicole. Well, to piggyback on that, I think if you took a poll after the verdict was read and you took a poll today, I think the numbers would be skewed even more towards the number of people who believe he did it. Because some of that is born out of the things that he's done since the murders occurred. Yeah, I think looking at everything since then as a whole in the minds of many people has made OJ look guilty. And I know we can't put the cart before the horse. We can't go back in a time machine here. But if this case happened today, I think a lot of the answers people are still looking for would have been answered. There's things like cell phone data.

There's surveillance cameras, more DNA stuff, more technique. more techniques. I think there's a lot more that could have been done with this case had it happened in 2003 and not 1994 that could have, you know, either probably excluded OJ entirely or made the case even more airtight against him that he wouldn't have been acquitted. Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about DNA specifically,

you know, the collection methods, the testing methods 30 years later, much, much better. Not to say that, you know, people still don't make mistakes, but no doubt it's come a long way. In 2003, Robert Kardashian passed away from esophageal cancer. Chris Jenner told Ellen DeGenerous in 2016 that she had no idea about the domestic violence between O.J. and Nicole while the two were together. She said, I didn't know that there was abuse until we heard and saw the whole thing unfold like everybody else and then heard the 911 tapes.

Chris and other friends of theirs felt that they had really failed her as a friend. In her memoir, Christopher recalled that in 1988, Nicole confided that she and O.J. and his son Jason, who was 19 at the time, were having issues getting along. Chris Jenner wrote, I so wish I would have asked her for specifics. In 2007, OJ Simpson was arrested in Las Vegas and charged with kidnapping and armed robbery. he and a few others had tried to steal some sports memorabilia, which Simpson claimed was his and he was just trying to get back. But he used a gun during the attempt. In 2008, Simpson was sentenced to 33 years in prison.

In July 2017, Simpson's request for parole was granted. On October 1st, he was released from Nevada's Lovelock Correctional Institute. He is now free from parole. In 2022, the balance that 75-year-old Simpson still owed the Goldman family had grown to $96 million, almost 60 million of it purely interest. Many recent articles quote Simpson's current total net worth is just $3 million. And you hear just $3 million. Okay. To most people, that is a fortune.

but if you owe someone $96 million, it doesn't seem like quite as much. And you know, one of the things more of that I think has happened ever since OJ got out of prison was that, you know, his movement has been followed, right? He still draws attention. And, you know, you see him on TMZ or you see him on some show. he's always playing golf, he's laughing, he's living, you know, this kind of high life still. And I think it has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, especially the people who thought that he got away with murder, but you still have, you know, this guy who owes the Goldman family all this money.

And he's out just kind of living carefree. I don't know. I have the feeling that it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Yeah, I think it definitely does, especially because so many people think he is really a murderer. And, you know, he has his friends. He has the supporters. But I would guess that a lot of places he goes, there are people whispering and pointing fingers and probably even people saying stuff right to his face because that he's despised by so many people. The murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman have been the sources of a variety of TV shows.

and podcast. There were also several books written about the case, including My Name is Ron, Our Search for Justice, and I Did It, Confessions of a Killer, as well as Media Circus and Can't Forgive by Kim Goldman. His name is Ron is heartbreaking and tells this story in only the way that Ronald Goldman's loved ones could because it's Ron's story. Kim also has a podcast called Media Circus. After nearly 30 years, this case remains cloudy, dogged by missed opportunities, unanswered questions and a lack of justice for Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. And for me, that is the key. You know, whether you think OJ did it, you think he was innocent, the fact remains that

there has been no justice for either Nicole or Ron. And at this point, I don't know how justice will be served. I mean, OJ could come out and say he did it. right? They can't try him again for murder. Maybe there's some legal technicality they could get him on. But then my other thought is if another suspect emerged with some compelling evidence, you know that a defense attorney is going to seize on the fact that they tried OJ and that a lot of people think he was guilty. So in defending their client, that's going to come up big time. Yeah, I think the only way somebody else out there besides OJ would ever face any kind of trial for this is if there was some kind of physical evidence linking them another fingerprint or DNA that's identified as being somebody else's, then all of a sudden they have to explain why they're connected to this crime scene.

But I wonder, is that even going on? you know, OJ's found not guilty. What happens with this case? Does it technically remain open? Are they actively looking at the evidence from 1994 at this point and trying to connect it to anyone else? I don't really know the answer to that. Yeah, I don't either because we don't hear a lot about it.

My thought is that the LEPD believes that they had the right person. It didn't go their way. But I don't know that they've changed their mind. minds on who they believe killed Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman, regardless of what the jury verdict was. Yeah. And as we mentioned, that's just has to be tough for the families of Nicole and Ron to, to know that there's a real suspect, somebody that in their minds probably should have been

found guilty and is walking free. And they may never see justice in their lifetimes for these murders from 30 years ago. Well, I don't think there's any doubt who the Goldman family believes was responsible. They even got a verdict against OJ. Now, it was a civil trial and the burden of proof is obviously much, much lower. But they did get that verdict. So I don't think there's any doubt that they believe he did it. But that's it for our episodes on the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.

And if you love the show, but haven't done so yet, go out, give us a five-star rating. You can leave a review also. But keep telling your friends, that word of mouth about the criminology podcast really goes a long way. If you want to find us on social media, we're on Twitter with the handle at criminology pod. You can also find us on Facebook by going to facebook.com slash criminology podcast. You can also join our Facebook discussion group, criminology podcast, discussion and fans. So that's it for another episode.

of criminology, but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike and Morph. We'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.