Criminology - The San Francisco Witch Killers

Episode Date: September 1, 2018

We're discussing the case known as the San Francisco Witch Killers. It's an interesting case in which mental illness, drugs, and the twisted beliefs of Jim Carson and Susan Barnes converge and leave a trail of murder victims along the way. In addition to the details of the case, in this episode, you will hear from the daughter of one of them and she tells us what it was like having to grow up with all of this in her life, and what it was like knowing her own father was a serial killer. You can help support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. I'd like to welcome everyone to the special bonus episode of criminology. We mentioned in the conclusion of episode four of our Ted Bundy coverage that we would be doing a few of these bonus episodes in between seasons three and four. And the reason for that is because we didn't want every one. to have to wait very long to get something new from us. This episode is called the San Francisco witch killers, and it's a really interesting case in which mental illness, drugs,

and the twisted beliefs of two people all converge and leave a trail of murder victims along the way. And these two people become serial killers. In this episode, you'll hear from the daughter of one of them, and she tells us what it was like having to grow up with all of this in her life, and what it was like knowing that her own father was a serial killer. Yeah, definitely. You do not want to miss that interview.

But before we get into this episode, we need to give our Patreon supporter shoutouts. Mary Beth Long jumped out at our highest level. Anastasia Martin. Bridget Connors. Michelle Martin jumped out at our highest level. Patrick McMinn. Michelle Donnelly. Dominic Foultzer.

Tioni and Debbie T. So we appreciate all of that new Patreon support, more if it really goes a long way in helping us put out these episodes. Every episode, when you read those Patreon shoutouts, it's just amazing to me, the support we have. So I just want to say thank you. But let's dive into this episode. In 1977, a 27-year-old man named James Clifford Carson was living a bohemian

hippie lifestyle in Phoenix, Arizona. Jim was a stay-at-home dad who took care of his young daughter, Jennifer, and also sold a little pot while his wife Lynn worked as a teacher. Despite Jim Carson not having a job, he took good care of his young daughter, feeding her, braiding her hair, taking her to the petting zoo, reading to her. And this worked well for the Carson family for a while. But eventually, Lynn became fed up with being the only breadwinner. On top of that, she was also fed up with Jim's drastic mood swings and his bizarre political rants about a revolution. Jim was eccentric.

And this eccentricity and passion, it was attractive to Lynn when they were 19-year-old war protesters in college. But then you fast forward to them at the age of 27, these same claims about overthrowing the government were starting to get on Lynn's nerves. When Jim started waving a gun around and going on verbal rants that escalated to threats, Lynn left Jim. After a decade together, they divorced in 1978. Lynn got primary custody of their daughter, Jen, and Jim got weekend visits.

Jim Carson was now a single man. At around the same time that Jim and Lynn divorced, a wealthy 36-year-old Scottsdale Country Club Divorce named Susan Barnes was also starting life over. Like Jim, Susan was from a stable upper-middle-class family. Another thing they shared in common was a history of mental illness. and both run medications to treat those mental illnesses. But they both stopped taking those medications and instead turned LSD and other drugs.

Susan's behavior became erratic. This included her having many sexual partners, some of whom were reportedly underage boys who attended high school with her teenage children. She was also arrested for public nudity in her upscale, Scottsdale neighborhood. It was no surprise that her first husband, a successful businessman,

took their two teenage children and left Susan. Nobody knew it at the time, but Susan Barnes and James Carson were on a collision course, one that would lead to multiple people losing their lives, fueled by drugs, mania, hallucinations, and an obsession with the occult. James Carson ended up at a party hosted by Susan at her home, and the pair immediately connected.

And James moved into her home not long after. Moving in together was a recipe for disaster. The two were inseparable, but it wasn't long before their relationship would explode into a cocktail of violence and delusion. Before this would happen, though, James seemed like he was still stable enough to share custody of his daughter, Jen, but he's living at Susan's house. And during several visits to Susan's house, Jen was seen. subjected to abuse and neglect. During one weekend stay, the young girl was not fed for three days and was severely scratched by Susan Barnes. She was also told by Susan that she had a demon in her and that Susan would try to rid Jen of this demon. Young Jen told her mother Lynn about the

frightening incident. And when Lynn saw the scratches on Jen's back, she knew that she needed to keep her daughter away from Jim and Susan. Lynn reported the pair's behavior to family, friends, and even law enforcement. But apparently she got no support. So one night, she packed up Jen and they vanished. Carson and Barnes got married and they spiraled into a world of a illicit drugs, and mysticism. But during this time, Susan had received money from her divorce and the sale of her home, and she used it to finance nomadic travels around the U.S. from state to state, including stops in Chicago and Washington, D.C.

Susan and Jim decided to travel abroad to places like India, Morocco, the U.K., Ireland, and France. From late 1978 to 1983, the pair essentially lived on the road, never staying anywhere for more than a month or two. But there was a time in late 1980 when they showed up once again in the U.S. and they had new names. James Carson was now calling himself Michael Bear Carson. And his wife, Susan, was now going by Susan Bear Carson,

but spelling her name with a Z. Michael, as he was now calling himself, later wrote a letter to his daughter in which he claimed that God had given them their new names. Although it was 1980 and the height of the hippie movement had been a decade earlier, this counterculture couple felt that they needed to find a place where they could fit in, a place where they could be accepted. For them, one of the obvious choices was San Francisco's Hate Ashbury District,

so Michael and Susan decided to go there. Once they made it to San Fran, they fit right in. They found themselves among other people with whom they identified, and they continued their descent into addiction and mental illness. It was at this time that they met a San Francisco woman named Karen Barnes. Barnes was a 22-year-old aspiring actress who had moved to California from Georgia. She was a free-spirited young woman who was accepting of people, and this included being a. accepting of Michael and Susan Bear Carson. She was interested in their beliefs about mysticism and the paranormal.

In fact, she was so accepting that Karen invited the Carcans to stay with her at her apartment whenever they visited San Francisco. And that would prove to be a deadly mistake. In March of 1981, while the Carstons were hitchhiking, a storm popped up, and Susan believed that the thunder was talking. to her. She believed it was telling her that their new roommate, Karen Barnes, was a witch, and that she wanted to kill Susan and Michael. The Thunder told her that she needed to start a mission to kill all witches, starting with Karen Barnes. The pair made their way back to the San Francisco

apartment, and without warning, beat Karen Barnes with a frying pan, crushing the 22-year-old skull. They then stabbed her 13 times and left the apartment. By the time Karen Barnes's body was discovered, the Carson's had left the area. By the time friends of Karen Barnes revealed to police that her roommates, Michael and Susan Carson, may have been the murderers, they had escaped to the sanctuary of a marijuana farm in Humboldt County in Northern California. And this is another place that they would fit right in and not a place that they would easily be found. The two worked as farmhands and guards. helping to grow, harvest, and protect the marijuana crop.

And there were a lot of pot smoking counterculture type individuals working on this commune, this farm. They were into peace and love. But the Carson started talking to everyone about the apocalypse. And they started to freak out some of these other people that were there working on the farm. But you have to imagine this place, Morph. This is an illegal pot-growing farm.

This isn't the type of place that you can go down to HR and put in a complaint about one of your co-workers. It was one of these farm workers that would next face the wrath of the disturbed couple. Clark Stevens and the Parsons had an ongoing conflict. What the conflict was about isn't known, but what is known is that in May of 1982, 26-year-old Clark Stevens was shot in the head twice, and his body was set on fire. Stevens was eventually reported missing, and police investigating the disappearance found his remains.

When police asked around the marijuana farm, people there didn't hold back, telling them that they needed to investigate Michael and Susan Carson. But as with the murder of Karen Barnes, the Carson's had managed to slip away. Several months later, police obtained a bag lost by the carcans, Parsons. The bag contained the weapon that killed Clark Stevens and a rambling manifesto. The manifesto detailed the couple's warped plans to kill celebrities such as Johnny Carson, California Governor Jerry Brown, and even President Ronald Reagan. But the manifesto didn't provide investigators with any clues as to where the Carson's were. But police knew that they

had a pair of disturbed killers on the loose. They had tied them to the murder of Clark Stevens and even had some evidence that they wanted to kill the president of the United States. And we mentioned earlier that Michael Bear Carson's ex-wife Lynn had given up her job as a school teacher and had fled with her daughter. She was trying to keep a low profile and she didn't want to be found by her ex. She knew that Michael and Susan were dangerous. Lynn had done a good job of hiding herself and Jen from the Carson's. But Lynn was surprised when the Secret Service showed up at her new residence investigating her ex-husband.

She was worried that if they could find her after she had gone underground, then perhaps her ex-husband could as well. She asked the Secret Service agents how they had found her, and they explained that they were the Secret Service, and they could find anybody. And it was at this point that all of Lynn's fears became reality. She learned what her ex-husband and his new wife had done and that they were being hunted. And she had to be somewhat fearful that they would try to come after her and her daughter. And not only that morph, but how is she going to tell her eight-year-old daughter that her dad,

this man that we talked about who had been a stay-at-home dad at one point, had cared for her, was now a murderer. How do you tell your young child that their father is a killer? So the authorities were hunting the Parsons for the murder of Clark Stevens, and they also had connected them to the murder of Karen Barnes. But this was a couple constantly moving around the western United States, and they lived off the grid. They blended in so well with their peers, they would be hard to track.

But police got a tip in November of 1982 when a man who knew Michael saw him hitchhiking and called police. Police raced the scene, found Michael, and arrested him. But somehow, a very unfortunate police error allowed Michael Carson to go free before detectives could question him. It was just two months later in January of 1983 when a 30-year-old man named John Hellyer was driving along a road heading to Santa Rosa County when he spotted a couple walking outside of Bakersfield.

The couple appeared to be harmless. And he stopped to ask them if they needed a ride. This pair accepted his offer and jumped into his car. But Hellyer had no way of knowing that he had just picked up Michael and Susan Bear Carson's and that this ride would turn deadly. After picking the couple up and talking with him, John Hellyer headed towards a major highway, the 101. He may have sensed that something was off and that the couple was dangerous.

It was during the ride that Susan leaned into Michael and whispered, We need to kill him. He's a witch. Michael Carson, as if he had no will to resist his wife's orders, started to grab Hellyer as he drove. Hellyer stopped the car and got out, but Michael and Susan jumped out as well, and a struggle ensued. Multiple witnesses saw what was happening and wound up calling police. Michael pulled a gun, and Hellyer struggled with him to gain control of it.

While they wrestled, Susan pulled out a knife and began stabbing Hellyer. Michael was able to finally secure the gun and shot Hellyer. Hellyer died from his wounds. Michael and Susan Carson tried to flee the scene in John Hellyer's car, but they didn't get far before police caught up to them, and a high-speed chase ensued. The chase didn't last long, and police pulled the pair over and were able to arrest them. Finally, this murderous pair was in custody, but what followed was the shocking admissions of their crimes and what they claimed drove them to commit these murders. And like we said earlier, Morph, this was a perfect storm of mental illness, drug use, shared religious delusions.

All of this combined to fuel the murders. and Michael and Susan fed off one another, and they even encouraged each other. The Carson's agreed to plead guilty to the three murders in exchange for them being able to hold a press conference on a San Francisco TV station. At the press conference, they spoke openly about their crimes. Like the manifesto found in the woods, Michael ranted incoherently. Michael even claimed that they, Jewish Michael, and Christian Susan, were told to kill which, is by Allah and his prophet Muhammad. It was bizarre and chilling that the pair had no remorse.

In the end, they lawyered up and reneged on their offer to plead guilty. They pleaded not guilty on the grounds of psychic self-defense. Through a series of bizarre trials, Michael and Susan were found guilty of all three murders and were sentenced to 75 years to life. They began serving their time in California. California prisons where they've been locked up ever since. And we talked about morph the fact that this couple traveled throughout the Western United States and Europe for the better part of five years.

So I don't think it's a stretch to say that they easily could have murdered other victims during that time frame that we just don't know about, that they never confessed to. The couple was suspected of up to a dozen other murders in the western U.S., in Europe, but after they got the life sentences in California, you know, these other jurisdictions didn't feel the need to pursue expensive extraditions. So they were never tried on any other charge. This case has been discussed on a number of true crime TV shows and was the subject of a book titled Cry for War, published in 1987.

In 2015, Michael and Susan came up for early parole. Susan showed no remorse and refused to do or say anything to help her chances for parole, and it was denied. She won't be eligible again for parole until the year 2030 when she's around 90 years old. Michael declined parole consideration in 2015, but the 67-year-old Michael gets another case. hearing in just 16 months in 2020. In 2015, he stated he refused to renounce his beliefs. We'll see if he changes his tune this time. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work

and is found brutally murdered. I wonder what's emergency? We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Blood and Water. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Although Michael and Susan Carson did enough to derail their chances to get out of prison in 2015, one of the individuals who was most vocal about making sure that they never get out is Michael's daughter, Jen Carson.

Jen Carson is an advocate for children of prisoners and crimes. crime victims, and she's even met face to face with family members of Michael and Susan's victims. She sat down with us to talk about the many fascinating and twisted pieces of this story, and she opened up about what it was like to be the child of a serial killer. Jen, I want to thank you so much for joining us on this very special episode of criminology. Oh, you're welcome, Morph.

I'm glad to be with you. I love your show. I appreciate that. And this is a first for us. It's the first time we're doing an episode that's not part of a traditional season. But when we heard about the case and that you were willing to talk about it, you know, it's something we knew we wanted to cover. Glad to do it.

Often we hear from victims of serial killers or about the victims. We hear from, you know, the points of view of the police, the detectives that are chasing them. And sometimes we even hear from the serial killers. killers themselves when they're when they're behind bars. But a lot of people sometimes forget that some of these killers have family. So the first question I have to ask you is, what's it like to know that you're the child of a serial killer? Well, first of all, you said that some serial killers have families. They all have families. You know, we like to think that these ultra-violent offenders, these serial killers, these mass killers, just kind of hatched or crawled out

from under a rock. But they all had a mother, right? And we know 75% of prisoners have children. And that includes our murders, our rapists, our pedophiles, and even our serial killers. And so, you know, most of most serial killers have kids. And for me, I just couldn't go the traditional route of changing my name and disappearing and, you know, kind of lying and hiding. And I did it for a number of years, but it just, it didn't work for me. I couldn't handle feeling ashamed for things that I did not do and things that occurred when I was a small child. And so, you know, I've kind of chosen a different route, but these children of serial violent offenders are, you know, deeply harmed by their parents' crimes. And for me, you know, I was very young when this happened.

and when I found out, I thought to myself, you know, am I a monster? Do I have monster genes? You know, am I going to hurt someone? And so this was something that I was very obsessed with from the age of nine. You know, as a nine and a 10 and an 11 year old, I was kind of very fearful of myself. And when your parent kills, you know, I used to say, you know, the hands that changed my diapers dabbed a young woman to death. You know, when that happens, the whole world is scary because I thought to myself, if daddy can kill, anyone can kill. And so the whole world was incredibly

frightening to me. I slept with knives under my pillow and scissors. I was very, very depressed. I was very suicidal. My first suicide attempt was when I was nine. So, you know, I was, you know, very tortured. It was, it was very hard. And, you know, as it's gotten easier, it's still an inheritance that I would wish on absolutely no one. So, you know, I think this has been said before, but it's definitely true. You're a victim of your father as well. Yeah. And definitely. So my father, who struggled with substance abuse and mental illness from a very young age began to unravel when I was a preschooler. And he had been a stay-at-home dad with me. So, you know, I spent, you know, 24 hours a day with him and he was my caregiver. And he definitely began to unravel. You know,

he'd always been very strange and eccentric. But in the context of the counterculture, where he and my mother met in the 1960s and kind of the war protest movement at their university, at University of Iowa, when he's dropping acid and saying, I could kill people with my mind, the other hippies next to him were saying just as weird of things. You know, so his oddity was not, you know, kind of sticking out in that environment. But later on, when my mom became a school teacher and he was the stay-at-home dad, he was still behaving like this. And now he's, you know, supposed to be a post-college adult who gets a job and what have you. And he became very obsessed with violence and kind of extremist religious beliefs

and became violent. And my mom had to leave him. I was a four-year-old when my parents got a divorce and they then had joint custody of me. My father went to, to a party one night soon after he and my mom divorced and he went to a party with a friend. And it was at this woman, Susan's house. He went to this party and he never left. He just moved in with her. They were like a match in gasoline. So she was from a very similar background to his own.

They both had grown up in upper middle class families, really nice intact families, but they both really had some, you know, mental, and, you know, substance abuse and also kind of some obsession with kind of extremist religious beliefs and that sort of thing. And so they just kind of exploded when they met. And so soon after my parents divorced, she was in a picture. So I went from the four years that he was my stay-at-home parent where he was brushing my hair and making my meals. And, yes, I was helping him fill dime bags, you know, because he was also a stay-at-home parent, where he was brushing my hair and making my meals. know, because he was also a stay-at-home slash pot dealer.

But it was mostly a positive experience for me. And so I went from that to these joint custody visits at my new stepmother's home, Susan. And I call her Scottsdale Townhouse in Arizona, the House of Wars. So I'll describe my last visit there. So the house had no furniture. It was filled with about 100 potted plants. There was no lighting, and the only piece of furniture was a waterbed. So I want you to imagine being a four-year-old and walking into a house at night with no lighting and 100 potted trees.

It was just frightening. And I slept on the floor. They were high. They were having sex in front of me. They were passed out. They decided that we were going to go on a spiritual fast, so they didn't feed me for three or four days. I tried to escape the house to get to food. I tried to call the operator.

I remember trying to dial a rotary phone. And at the end of it, my father's high and passed out. And Susan, who had become physically abusive escalated. At one point, I felt like she was pushing me down in the water to wash my hair in the bathtub. And the last incident was I asked her for a back rub. And she started scratching my back with her jagged nails. And it burned. And when I got home from that visit, I described what had happened.

And in the past, when I had said, they didn't feed me. My mom thought I meant I didn't get cookies. And it finally sunk in that I was saying, like, literally, they had starved me for three or four days. And when I said my back hurt, she lifted my shirt and saw five open wounds on my back. And she just said, you know, you'll never see them again. When she left him, she thought he was unraveling, becoming violent, you know, was afraid. But, you know, and I was telling her things they had said to me. And, you know, Susan had said things to me like you and your mother are demons.

You need to die. You know, she's taking those as threats at this point. You know, she just said, you'll never see them again. And the next visit where they came to get me, they had just sold their townhouse in Scottsdale. and they were going to use that money to go live, to travel around the world. And they had also applied for joint citizenship in Israel. And so she was very afraid they were about to kidnap me. And at one point, she dropped me off at a random church and left me there.

So when they left on their trip, my mom had talked to everyone who, anyone and everyone, to say, these people are dangerous. They threatened to kill my four-year-old. you know, they threatened to kill me. She had letters. She had specifics. And everyone blew her off as some bitter ex-wife. And so often you hear about serial killers families and you're like, why didn't they do anything?

Why didn't they tell anyone? My mom told everyone. I mean, literally everyone. And she was blown off and eventually she was advised by a couple people she trusted to just disappear. So she packed us up. She broke her teaching contract with no notice, left about it. bunch of her stuff and just vanished. And we disappeared and we laid low for the next four years until they were arrest. I want to step back for a second. You had mentioned a little bit earlier that

you made a decision from early on that you weren't going to just be anonymous. You wanted to not hide in the shadows. You wanted to talk about this. What age did you decide that you were going to be open about it? Oh, that was not a decision I made early on. That was a decision. That was a decision I made around the age of 30, you know, but up until then, I was, I was doing all the things that other children and families of serial violent offenders do. You know, you, if your name is distinct, you change your name. If your name is not distinct, you know, you just kind of invent some backstory. Soon after my father's arrest, I was given so many shaming messages from family members. You know, I had two close male relatives tell me you cannot tell anyone about your father because no one will marry you.

And my grandparents started introducing me as their great niece. You know, so there was, you know, this kind of erasure of my father. And in order to do that, I had to be erased as well. And so there was a lot of lying and a lot of hiding. And, you know, I did that, I did that for a number of years. I would say, you know, until I went to college. And then when I went to college, I started to tell friends or boyfriends. And it was a really hard experience.

I would have people who were either overly fascinated to almost being kind of obsessed with it and would read everything about the case. You know, I'd have people who were disgusted and wanted nothing to do with me. And then I had people who were kind and empathetic. You know, so it was very challenging when I first started to tell people. I had a very serious relationship where this boyfriend said, you know, we were kind of starting to talk about marriage. And he said, I cannot have children who have to deal with this of having a grandfather's zero killer. He's just like, I can't do this. And, you know, I had another boyfriend who I was walking into his house to meet the parents for Thanksgiving.

And he turned to me and said, now I told my parents that your father died in a car accident, okay? So I get in and they're asking me about, you know, a couple people asked me about this car accident. Like, oh, we're so sorry. We heard that your father passed away. And it was like, you know, what do I do? Do I keep going on with a lie? You know, what do I do? And so all of that, none of that was working for me.

It was just kind of eating me up. I, secrets didn't work for me. And the shame and the stigma certainly did that work for me. Was it a relief when you finally unburdened it and started telling people, you know, the truth? Yeah. Yes, for sure. I began teaching when I was right out of college. I was like 21, turning 22.

And, you know, I was working in a low-income school. And about half of my class was experiencing parental incarceration. And I just didn't realize that the huge scope of the problem because when I was little, no one talked about it. You know, you would say daddy's out of the picture or you'd pass off, you know, stepfather, what have you. And my students were more open about their experience. And so, you know, I started realizing kind of that many people in this country go through this. And, you know, in some communities, it can be as high as. as, you know, one-fourth of kids have a parent who's incarcerated, you know, kind of made the

decision to then get a master's screen counseling. And I focused my research on children or prisoners and definitely found that, you know, our children of serial killers and pedophiles and rapists have just such a extreme level of shame and stigma. Did you have to have any kind of like counseling along the way as a child or as an adult? Yeah, I want to be clear. I have not overcome it. It's really important for me not to whitewash my experience. You know, I share with people my struggle with, you know, early onset, severe depression.

And, you know, I have struggled with depression. You know, I, you know, I've sought help. And one of those pieces to me, you know, trying to break down the stigma and the shame of this experience is to tell people get help at works. You know, if, you know, if you're coping with depression, if you're coping with post-trauma, you know, get help. So yes, I've done, I've done therapy. I've, you know, I've done everything, you know, I need to do. And for me, one of the biggest struggles was my age of when all this happened, you know.

So when I was four and I was in that house of horrors and I believed that my stepmother wanted to kill me, you know, for a number of years, I would just have nightmares and glimpses of that experience. When I was nine and I was told that my father, you know, killed several people. I came into contact with a bunch of newspaper articles. What had happened is that my mother was concerned. I was about to find out in the media. And so she made the decision to tell me. And she did it in the most age-appropriate way she could. She said, Daddy heard a bunch of people.

He has to go away so he doesn't hurt anyone. And, you know, he's safe and everyone else is safe. And so she told me in a very age-appropriate way. But it was the worst moment of my life. And I turned to her and I said, are the hurt people dead? And she said, yes, the hurt people are dead. we were we were outside and we were walking and I turned to her and I said do the dead people have mommies and she said yes and we just walked home in silence just tears streaming down our faces

you know I mean this was excruciating to learn that my father had killed people and you know you're still you're still kind of figuring out what death is you know you know maybe you've had the death of a pet or you know developmentally and so it was so hard and some just a few months after that I found a bunch of news articles that my mom had in a dresser and I remember using my finger because I was sounding out some words that I didn't know and I remember trying to sound out the word bludgeon and the word decapitate you know because I remember these articles and I remember these two big words I didn't know you know but I still was able to read these details. So now here I am, I'm nine and a half, or I've just turned 10, and I now know that my father stabbed, bludgeoned, you know, beat someone over the head with a frying pan, set a body on fire, I now know the details. And so I then struggle with vicarious trauma, and I started having just horrific nightmares. People say to me, you weren't there. How could you

be traumatized. And I say to that person, I want you to imagine that today you find out that you're the product of incest. You know, you find out that you were produced because your grandfather raped your mother. You weren't there. You didn't see it. Would you be traumatized? You know, I mean, vicarious trauma is real and it's horrible and especially in children. You know, it was just, it was excruciating. This is a perplexing case. It's got so many different pieces. It's, recipe for disaster. You've got the mental illness. You've got the drug use. You've even got the occult angle. And it seemed like your father and Suzanne fed off each other. And do you think these murders were the result of the combination of all of those things? Or was there one thing in

particular that you think led them to what they did? I think what you described is right. It's nuanced, right? I mean, a lot of these things are not just one thing. And in this case, you know, both of these people were born into really great families and lived in privilege. You know, they don't have some of these backgrounds that you hear about. But both did suffer from mental illness. You know, very early on, Susan claimed to be a psychic. And what we know is she was having visual hallucinations at a young age, and they were medicating her. And likewise, my father.

suffered from something called Perthes. It's a rare bone disorder and it caused him to be bedridden as a child. And then as a preteen, he started suffering from really big mood swings. Now, most people who are mentally ill do not hurt people, right? You're more likely to be a victim of violence than a perpetrator if you're mentally ill. You know, so that didn't cause the violence, but it was a peace. And with my father, he very early on started self-medicate. with speed, acid, and marijuana, and was using all three kind of heavily, you know. So marijuana would have brought down his mania. The speed would have helped for when he was depressed. And he was kind of self-medicating in addition to what he was prescribed. And this started really early on, you know, in his early teens.

So the long-term drug use, I think, was a big piece to it and what drugs they were using. You know, the fact that they were using LSD. You know, we know that LSD can cause psychosis, even from, you know, a handful of usage. And they were using LSD for like a decade. So that was a piece. But the, and then the combination of their really sick relationship. And, you know, they really fit that profile of the typical partner serial killer where there's a dominant and a submissive. You know, she was clearly dominant.

He was clearly submissive. And they were in that type of relationship. But the biggest piece is both of them had always seemed fascinated with violence. You know, early on, it was, you know, my father would talk about, you know, there needed to be an overthrow of the government and, you know, these sorts of things. And both didn't seem to have very much of a conscience. You know, we know that one percent of the population are psychopaths. And when I tell people that, they say, well, you describe that he was so loving when you were a little kid. And, you know, I think people think that someone loving them.

child means that they are a good and kind person. In this case, he really seemed quite obsessed with the fact that I looked just like him and that I was kind of his little mini-me. He also seemed borderline creepy obsessed with me. He would talk about how I was a psychic and he was asking me questions to make decisions. So I don't necessarily think that, you know, his kindness to me shows that there was, you know, moral fiber and conscience and that kind of thing. So I definitely think it was that combination, you know, of those factors. Later on in their relationship, when he was completely sober, and he actually described someone that he said he killed with his mind

and he caused them to have a car accident and die. And so those were the kinds of things that were freaking her out later in the relationship. There was an incident where my mother actually wrestled a gun away from him, him and ran and threw it in a nearby pond at a park. And so, you know, she, she definitely has described some predictors that she saw. She also saw him harm an animal. And, you know, we know that that is hands down, you know, one of the predictors of serial homicide, you know, is harming an animal or smaller children and so on.

You know, with Susan, she just seemed to just completely unravel. and with her it took the shape of kind of creating this strange hybrid religion. And a lot of it was just so closely connected with her hallucinations. So, you know, they're often called Muslims in the media. But in reality, my father was raised Jewish. She was raised Christian. And the whole attribution of them being Muslim was that Susan was having visions. And she claims that Mohammed told her to kill people.

in a vision. So they didn't, you know, ever, they never studied at a mosque. They never studied with an Amman. You know, they weren't practicing Islam, you know, but they had created this weird kind of fusion religion where they'd taken bits and pieces. And the one piece that they took from Islam was the concept of jihad. And they claimed that, you know, Allah told them to kill, this list of people. Susan was trying to make herself this like cult leader, you know, and she could only find one follower. And she found this man who just had always seemed lost and been looking for something. I mean, there's a story of him in the 1960s, hitchhiking to Black Panther headquarters and showing up and going, I'm here to help you start

the revolution. And they're like, what? You know, move along. You know, but, you know, so he was just always looking for someone to believe in, and she was always looking for followers. And they found each other, unfortunately. And one thing I wanted to ask about just because we mentioned your mom a few times. How did she process all of this knowing that the man she had once been married to that was the father of, you know, her child is turned out to be who he was? every story has a hero and this story's hero is my mom she somehow knew that these people were unbelievably dangerous she went to everyone and warned them and even after no one believed her she took me we went into hiding she was like working low-income jobs getting paid under the

table so that she wasn't drawing social security so she couldn't be found you know we were moving often. I mean, she remained convinced that these people were going to harm me all four years when no one else believed her. The experiences that she went through with him that she has probably never fully talked about definitely, you know, haunted her and caused her to really suffer from depression and struggle. Soon after my father's arrest, she remarried a wonderful man. They have been married 35 years. she's had a very happy 35 years. You know, so she's, she's just been really blessed.

But, you know, this was traumatic. And she does, you know, she does suffer from that struggle with that post-trauma. And let's go back for a second to when, you know, when they were arrested, that's probably a relief. You know, speaking of your mom, that's probably a relief for her. What was the fallout like at that point for your family once the arrest, happened. It kind of came in two pieces. So in, you know, so in, you know, in 1978, my father and Susan, you know, disappeared and went to, you know, Israel and India and Europe. And when they ran out of money, they came home. And when he got home, my father started looking for me, sending

letters, you know, just really actively trying to find us. So when that was happening in around 1980, 1981, you know, that was kind of frightening for my mom. You know, in 81, my father killed the first known victim, Karen Barnes, you know, and then there were several other

incidences. And after they killed their second known victim, Clark Stevens, a gun known to be theirs was attributed to them. So then they then became a murder suspect. The way the gun was found was very

strange. They were hiding in the woods and a search party came to look for a missing hiker. And all of a sudden, this search party is doing a grid search and, you know, doing their thing. All of a sudden, these two weird hippies and rags appear out of nowhere, you know, seemingly like they were under a tarp or something. And they start running in circles. And one of them hits a tree. One of them falls into a ravine. And in this whole Keystone Cops Act, they drop a backpack. And in the backpack, they find drugs. They find some fake IDs. They find some bullets that later match the murder of Clark Stevens. And they find a manuscript. And on the front of it, it said cry for war. And the manuscript detailed their philosophy.

and it also detailed who they were going to kill. They listed that they were going to kill witches and abortion doctors and homosexuals and, you know, this number of people. And then they had a list with actual names. And on the list was Governor Jerry Brown. There was Johnny Carson, Ronald Reagan, and there would even be reasons.

You know, they stated that Ronald Wilson Reagan had six letters in his name, 666, you know and so they had this list and there was actually a detailed plan of how they were going to kill Ronald Reagan and there were notes and it appeared they had actually stalked him at one point and so that was immediately turned over to the Secret Service so you were asking about how this impacted us the first way it impacted us was in 1982 a year before their arrest the Secret Service showed up on our door and literally men in black or at our doorstep. And my mom sends me to my room and I'm, you know, eavesdropping at the door. They're there to question her about her ex-husband. But they asked her if she thought he was violent, if she thought he could kill. And this is the first affirmation from her that she has that she's not going totally crazy.

You know, because now for three years, you know, we've, you know, been in hiding. You know, she's convinced that these people are dangerous. And they asked her, you know, question. about his feelings about all the living presidents and that sort of thing. So that was the first time that my mom knew that they were suspected of a murder, as well as a plot to kill the president. They're then on the run for another whole year. I only caught glimpses of it, so I only knew daddy was in trouble.

You know, I didn't understand. And kind of up to that point, the three prior years, I had been making up stories about where my daddy was. And I had told the other kids that he was a real, for the Grateful Dead. You know, I told them that he was a spy. You know, I would make up stories. So this is the first glimpse I have that he's in trouble.

And then my mom is just thick for a year, you know, because they're on the run. No one knows where they are. And a year later, she gets the call that they were arrested for a third murder. And that was the murder of John Hellyer, where they murdered a poor man in broad daylight on the side of the 101 freeway next to a fruit stand where there were some teenagers and in broad daylight when families with children were driving by and on the side of the road these two people were stabbing and shooting this poor man

and then there was a chase and so on so we received a call that they were suspects you know my mom did and that they were arrested and then she kept in close contact with with the detectives and helped them as much as she could through the investigation to give them information. And so we would be, you know, kept up to date very soon after the arrest. She was called and told, we want to let you know they're now suspects in about 12 murders. And so, you know, she was just kind of pretty aware of all the details because she had assisted, you know, with the investigation.

and the detective was pretty transparent with her. You know, she had spent almost 10 years with this man. And, you know, she was so sad about what I would be going through. And while she felt relief that we were safe, you know, she then was in the mode of like, you know, how am I going to help my child deal with this? And that's leading into when, you know, she decided to tell me. And at some point you start, you know, you get to an age where you're, really diving into this and you're looking at the details of these murders and you've got to go

through all these accounts of what they did to these people and these are some some pretty horrible things they did i mean how do you process when you're learning you know sort of an expert in your own father's case how do you process all that stuff they did and and go through those details and facts and and process all that the part is you know as you mentioned this is a really complicated case. They were in, you know, they were like in 10 countries in 12 states, you know, because they were nomadic. And, you know, so it is very complicated. But here's the thing, the most horrible aspects of the murders I learned at the age of mine. You know, I learned about the stabbing, the burning, you know, beating over the head. I learned all of those at age nine.

When I was 16, I caught a ride to University of California, Riverside. I went to the library. I claimed I was there for a school report or whatever. And I started doing extensive research on the case starting age 16. I read details by microfish and just became really well informed. I read some of the transcripts from the trial. and that sort of thing. And so I, you know, really, I don't know why, but I needed to know everything.

And I think it was because there were so many lies and secrets around me, you know, that I needed to know. I was also incredibly fearful, you know, something I want to convey is that the trial went on from the time I was in fourth grade to 12th grade. That's how long the appeals went on. You know, people kind of assumed they were arrested and it was just over for me. You know, the trial was called the witch trial. And it was in the same era of the California Twinkie defense. And so during the trial, they were, they had pled psychic self-defense. They said that these people were attacking them psychically and they had to defend themselves.

The trial was a zoo. They had expert witnesses that were warlocks and spiritualists and witches. I mean, it was just in that house. at one point a teacher was taking a class on a field trip and they were supposed to go into the court the court where there was traffic court they were accidentally brought in to this that court and so there was a fifth grade class there during an autopsy and then they took them out I mean the whole trial was just a complete zoo and Michael and Susan were kissing and making out and they'd have to separate them they were giggling during testimony of the autopsies. At one point, Michael jumped up and said, death to the queen, long live the IRA. During sentencing, Susan, you know, straight out of like, I don't know, Kabuki Theater or something, is putting her head on her, her hand on her head and saying, what is my crime? To be beautiful, to be an artist. And, you know, so the trial was just a zoo, you know. And so I think those are

the details I didn't learn about when I was nine. And so, you know, as a teenager, hearing, that not only did my father dab this young woman to death, and in my head maybe I could tell myself it was because he was on some sort of drug, you know. And then, but at 16, I'm learning that completely sober, he's in the courthouse joking around. They were very angry. They were not getting enough press. And so my father wrote Herb Kane in the San Francisco Chronicle and said, you know, what do you have to do to get decent press around here?

so that was published in that column and so I don't know if he thought that was his ticket to Zodiac fame or what but when that didn't work then they said we'll confess to two more murders if we can have a press conference and they had a six-hour press conference and at the beginning of that press conference

they walked up to the mics and Susan said now Michael we're only talking about the ones in California so that of course haunted me when I discovered that as a teenager, you know, because it was an affirmation for me, you know, what we'd been told about the other cases, the cold cases. So, you know, the more I would find out, you know, the more disturbed I got. And the more, you know, I don't know if you've

noticed during this interview I've called my father Michael, but that's actually an alias. He was born James Clifford Carson. And in private, you know, of course, you know, for the first decade of my life, I called him Daddy. You know, and then after he was arrested, I called him Jim, which is what the family called him. And in some ways, as I started to learn more about the case, I had to kind of separate who was this man who fed me breakfast and brushed my hair, and that that man was Jim, and that this other man was Michael. And it was just like, I was overwhelmed, and I guess this is the way I could only handle it.

Do you think there's a good chance there's more victims out there, and if so, how many? What I know is that I have talked to three people they almost killed, where like a gun was put in their face. So, you know, we know of multiple incidences where someone just skated by and got away from these people. There was an incident where they were renting a like a guest treehouse kind of thing behind a property. and they burned it to the ground. They put a gun to the man who owned the house, and, you know, he just got away. So there's a lot of stories like that.

And those three individuals that we know of, that they almost killed, have all suffered from such trauma from that experience. All three of the known victims were so similar. They were all middle-class kids who had kind of, joined the kind of counterculture and we're now kind of at the last fraud of it. You know, they, um, you know, and they, all three were kind of a little bit disjointed from

their families. And, you know, prior to the internet and cell phones, you know, when your son or daughter picked up in the car and took off to live in Haydashbury, San Francisco, you know, it's pretty easy to lose contact and, and so on. So I think that their victims were possibly all kind of lost kids. Something very interesting happened to me about a year ago. A man named Thomas Legg, who was a witness in one of the trials. And he was a witness because they robbed him and they almost killed him. He was a friend of theirs in Portland, and he let them stay with him between 79 and 83.

And he said that they would come through two or three times a year to Portland, and they were selling drugs at Portland State University. He had been involved with drug dealing and had straightened out his life now, but really had just not wanted to think about or talk about that past part of his life. But before he died recently, he and I emailed, and he told me that he believed that they killed a woman named Andrea Marin. And I've done a lot of research about the case, and it's identical to the murder of the known victim, Karen Barnes, and I believe they murdered her. I have reported it to the police. Unfortunately, there was just next to no physical evidence, and they haven't been able to go further. But after reviewing the case extensively, I truly believe that they murdered that woman. Wow.

And if you can, take us back to just a few years ago when it came time for, you know, them to come up for parole. And you were staunchly against them being released. Tell us a little bit about that. About 12 years ago, I decided to go public. And I had read about a child of a serial killer who was very depressed and hostile. with depression. And so I wrote a letter to that person and eventually that was published in Marie Claire magazine, a woman's magazine. And I went public 12 years ago. And so, you know, I had become this advocate and, you know, I had done a number of, you know, speaking engagements and media

and so on. And I felt like I was in a really good place. Three years ago, out of the blue, I find out that my father had come up for parole and Susan. They both had come up for parole. And, you know, in other cases, you know it's coming. You know there's a parole coming. With the victim's families and myself and my mother, we had no idea this was coming until we received a letter in the mail. They had received 23, 25 to life sentences.

And so very suddenly, the state of California, California initiated something called the Elder Life for parole program. And they stated that anyone over age 60 who had served 25 years in prison would now be eligible for parole. And so just out of the blue. And I just felt like a two by four had hit me when I found out this news. It just, it absolutely crushed me. I immediately went, I wasn't going to flight. I had, you know, I had chosen not to hide in the past.

So I made a decision. And I had had the amazing opportunity to meet all of the victims' families prior to this. And so we joined and we started an anti-parole campaign. And we did media. We did letters. We did a petition. And we did everything we could to fight this. And people around me kept saying, why are you working on this so much?

You know, he's not going to get out. You know, she's not going to get out. And I kept listing, you know, that squeaky Fromm is out. You know, the person that shot Reagan is now out. I mean, I was naming all these people who have gotten out, you know, and California does have a history of letting out some pretty awful people. So I just put all I could into this hours before I was about to drive down to where my father's parole hearing was.

I received a call that he said that he did not want. want to be considered for parole. And he wrote on a form, something to the effect of, this is a joke. Why would I go to this hearing? You know, when I refuse to renounce my belief, I think is what he wrote. With my stepmother's parole minutes before the hearing, she refused to leave herself. And the hearing proceeded and the siblings of the victims were there. And I was a few miles away. What's interesting is whenever we talk about serial killers and these murders who often don't talk about what they act like or what they're doing in prison. So at this hearing, one of the first things that was said is they said, Susan Barnes-Carsen

is the worst prisoner in the worst female prisoner in California history. And they detailed that for the last 35 years, she has spit, kicked, hit the guards, has been non-compliant every day. day in, day out for 35 years. So that was interesting. And I had gotten, she, there's a book out called Letters from Prison, Voices of Women Murderers. And a fourth of a big chunk of the book is letters from Susan

to this woman who wrote this book. And so I kind of gotten a glimpse of her point of view. But I was, you know, startled to hear that she has remembered. remain violent like all 35 years to the guards, to the other inmates to everybody. You know, may I add, I just described my stepmother's behavior in prison. Let me describe my father's behavior in prison. He interviewed with a journalist named Richard Reynolds, who wrote a book called A Cry for War, the Michael and Susan Carson story.

And when he read the book, he just became furious. And he began talking day in and day out about how he was going to kill Richard Reynolds. And he put the book under his pillow because he said he was going to kill him with his mind. And the prison fell that was such a substantial threat that they had to inform him. You know, so he has threatened to kill other people. It's really interesting in his case. Soon after that, he kind of became very, very polite with the guards and developed kind of relationships with them. It's an interesting dichotomy. I've seen letters that he's written to serial killer fans. where he's bragging about violence, they're really violent.

And then I have seen letters that he's written to me, of course, and because he did write letters to me the first 20 years of his incarceration, and then letters who wrote to other family members, and they're very sweet and genteel. And so it's interesting that he is able to be that more the mind of a murder, charming serial killer, you know, in prison. But he has had no remorse. Soon after I graduated from college, I'm teaching eighth grade.

And one day I'm sitting in front of my class and I nod off. And the reason I nod off is because I had had a week-long bout of nightmares that had just kind of come out of nowhere. And so I decided to get in the car and go to Folsom Prison. So I go up to Folsom Prison. I'm 22 years old. I take my best friend. And we get up there. and it's one of the oldest prisons in the country.

It looks like a dungeon. It's so creepy. And I decide to dress up because I guess I want to not look like a serial killer's daughter, whatever that looks like. So I go up and wait in line and get through the metal detectors. And, you know, there's all these things unexpected. Like you can't have wire in your bra. So I'm like ripping that wire out of my undergarment in the bathroom.

You know, so it's just weird being in a prison if that's somewhere you haven't been. And I get to the area where the visitation is. And in my mind, I'm so ready for there to be like Law & Order, like a glass and two phones. And all of a sudden, the door opens like Star Trek, you know, sideways door. And this man walks up and hugs me. And it's my father. And I'm so stunned because I was ready for that glass phone phone phone. it didn't occur to me that it was open visitation.

And in the next second, you know, I'm jarred because he's hugging me and I'm jarred because we're now at eye level, you know, instead of me being, you know, just above his knee. And then the next second, I'm jarred because Eric Menendez is standing next to me. And it was just bizarre and surreal, this, you know, visitation and Folsom. And Eric Menendez winked at me and said, yours, pretty as you were in your picture. It was just surreal. And so I sat down with my father. We talked for about almost three hours. And in that three hours, he was on like this monologue. He talked about history, politics, philosophy, barely asked many questions about myself, made a really creepy comment about he, he said, I heard you went to Baylor. That's where I went to

undergraduate. And I said, yes, I went to Baylor. And he said, I did work there once. I did. And it just really creeped me out. And then he proceeded to, in the middle of one of his rantings about philosophy and religion, bragged about the murder of Clark Stevens and, you know, talked about murdering him, talked about setting his body on fire. He literally bragged about the murder. And in the next moment, he was glancing off to the side and was kind of had this blank stare. And I turned and there was a six-year-old across.

from us who was meeting with his father. And my father shakes his head and looks back at me and goes, oh, I'm sorry, I just haven't seen a kid in 20 years. And in that moment, I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, this guy had taught fifth grade, you know, he did student teaching. He was a stay-at-home dad. I'm like, how did this all happen? It was just kind of a jarring moment for me. But the bragging about the murder, there's just, there's no remorse there, none. I firmly believe that, that, you know, he has this hit list of people he hates. You know, in the past it was Ronald Reagan and Johnny Carson. And now it's this true crime writer and myself.

He has sent me some really hostile and scary letters, and I had to do a no contract order. There's this concept with this policy that gave my father early parole that people are nonviolent when they become old, you know, and that's really not the case. You know, so I do. I believe he would be a real. risk to others if he was released. Yeah, I think that people think that, you know, my desire to

keep him in prison is some sort of vendetta or vindictive or what have you. I definitely know that people who support him getting out believe that of me. And I believe it is compassionate of me to not want him to be harmed or him to harm someone else. If as an elderly man, he becomes, he's violent, you know, he could also be harmed as well. You know, I just think that he is safer where he is, you know, others are safer. And, you know, that day I told you that my mom and I were walking and I said, are the hurt people dead? And she said, yes. And I said, did the hurt people have mommies? And she said, yes. From that moment on, I prayed for those moms for the next, probably 10 or 15 years faithfully, and I still do sometimes, you know, for these families.

and I made a commitment to help and honor these people. You know, these, and, you know, all three of the known victims were so loved. You know, they were all kind of a little bit lost, bohemian kind of counterculture types, but they were all so deeply loved by their families. And they were young and they were innocent. And one of the things that I really struggle with is, you know, for example, the female victim, her name was Karen Barnes. She was an actress.

She was in Smoking and the Bandit. She went out to Hollywood to make her big break, you know, and ended up being Jane Fonda's housekeeper instead of starring in a film, you know. And I don't know if you've read this, but very strangely, she was asked out by one of the Hillside Stranglers. I mean, this poor girl. But she was so loved. And, you know, she lived in San Francisco,

and her roommates were this famous punk band, the victims. And on one occasion, she appeared in this like avant-garde performance art piece. And after that, after she died, she was called a topless dancer. And even if she had been a topless dancer, that doesn't matter. But these victims have been kind of vilified based on what the offenders have said about them. You know, in both cases, the male victims, you know, it's been written down that they both came on to Susan or hit on her in some way. and they were they were men who were about 20 and at that time she was not a you know 40-something woman who had not aged very well and who was wearing rags and you know was not very attractive and so you know I hate that the murders have been able to define who these people were you know so I truly want to honor them they were they were loved their families loved them and they deserve justice.

You know, I've shared a lot of my trauma, but something I want to convey is this is not my whole life. You know, it very much defined me and so on, but I dress up like a Ghostbuster and I go to Comic-Con. You know, I mean, there are moments of my life that are very fun, and there's levity and there's joy. And so, you know, yes, it is challenging, but, you know, I do have happiness and joy.

And also, I'm just so thankful that, you know, I was able to use this experience and help others. You know, and I've done, I do a lot of advocacy for children or prisoners. I do trainings for teachers and mental health professionals and law enforcement about working with children or prisoners. And it's so amazing to, I'll do Skype sessions where I Skype into like a criminology or criminal justice class and I'll talk to them about children or prisoners and and you know specifically talk about how often when they're making an arrest there might be a child present you know and so it's you know it's just so rewarding to be able to help people to to help that population and then you know I was a I was a counselor for 15 years working in low-income schools and and you know I've

of that. And I've also done advocacy for crime victims. I've helped families who are facing a big parole fight. And I've also helped victims at sentencing, you know, violent crime victims who are doing their victim impact statements and that sort of thing. And so I really try to just do a lot of advocacy for people who are impacted, you know, by crime. And, you know, I have, there's so many misconceptions about why I speak publicly. And, you know, there's a couple of reasons. You know, I've done, you know, I've done a lot of interviews on investigative discovery channel and oxygen and so on.

And a couple reasons is I want people to hear about these victims, that they were wonderful people because that could help prevent the parole. And I also want to break down that stigma of what it is like for families of violent offenders and specifically, you know, children of violent offenders. And every single time that I speak, you know, on a, on a radio show, on a television show, in a magazine or whatever, every single time I get messages from, from other children of murderers every single time. But, you know, again, I don't want to, I don't want to sound like this was easy or that I'm a superhero. But I also don't want to sound like this is my everything. You know, this is just, this is just part of

of my life, but it's a very challenging part of my life. And if people do want to see what you're up to where they want to reach out to you, or you think they think you can help them in some way, where can they find you? They can contact me on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. And I often give out my email address. You know, you can contact me directly at Jen Carson at yahoo.com. and that's J-E-N-N-C-R-S-O-N at Yahoo.com. And also you can contact me through www.

jenn-Karsen.org. And that has all my social media for you to contact me. You know, please, anyone who's listening, who's coping with having a loved one who's a violent offender, you know, please don't hesitate to contact me. So, Morf, what an amazing interview. It's not often that you get to hear from the daughter of a serial killer who opens up about something so painful, so personal,

and we really appreciate Jen for coming on the show. I agree, Mike. Jen really gave us a very interesting and in-depth analysis of what her life was like as a result of what her father did. And that wraps up the case of the San Francisco witch murders. But don't forget, we'll be back two weeks from now on September 15th. with another all-new special episode about a fascinating case, one that we're excited about.

And then don't forget, season four of criminology launches on September 29th. If you like the show, please take a minute, go out, give us a five-star rating. That goes a long way towards helping other people find the podcast. And if you want to find Criminology on social media, we're on Twitter with the handle at Criminology Pod. we're also on Facebook. You can find us by searching Criminology Podcast. Or you can join our discussion group on Facebook,

which is called Criminology Podcast Discussion and Fans. If you're not already subscribed to the podcast, now is a great time to do so. That helps ensure that you don't miss any upcoming episode. Right. That is it for another episode of Criminology. We'll be back in two weeks. Stay safe and we'll talk to you.

then.