Criminology - William Tyrrell

Episode Date: March 28, 2020

In this episode, we're headed to Australia to discuss one of that country's most infamous unsolved child disappearances. 3-year-old William Tyrrell disappeared in September 2014, and the pictures of the precious little boy displayed on the media captured the hearts of people from around the world. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the baffling disappearance of William Tyrrell. His biological parents had some problems in their marriage, including claims of domestic violence. This led to William being removed from their care and placed with a wealthy foster couple who already had one daughter. It was on September 12, 2014, as the family was visiting the foster mom's mother that William disappeared. Searches were conducted and tips and leads poured in. The police have developed a number of potential suspects over the years but, to date, have not been able to solve the mystery. You can support the show at patreon.com/criminology An Emash Digital Production Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you love chilling mysteries, unsolved cases, and a touch of mom-style humor, moms and mysteries is the podcast you've been searching for. Hey guys, I'm Mandy. And I'm Melissa. Join us every Tuesday for moms and mysteries, your gateway to gripping, well-researched true crime stories. Each week, we deep dive into a variety of mind-boggling cases as we shed light on everything from heist to whodunit.

We're your go-to podcast for Mysteries with a Motherly Touch. Subscribe now to moms and mysteries wherever you get your podcast. Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 105 of the criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford. Mr. Morford, how are you? I'm doing as good as can be expected under the conditions. How about you?

Yeah, I think if we asked everybody in the audience, that's probably what they'd say, right? I mean, it's unprecedented, at least in my lifetime, and I'm assuming in your lifetime as well, what we're going through, the changes that we're seeing from, you know, week to week. It's mind-boggling and it's scary. Let's be honest. You know, it's scaring a lot of people out there. And for me, I guess, the only thing that I can really say to everyone is I hope everybody's staying safe and trying to stay sane at the same time because, you know, being stuck in your

house for a lot of people, a lot of people are. It's not always the easiest thing. But I think, you know, a lot of our folks are turning to what they know, true crime podcasts, maybe they're finding other podcasts. So I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat. I am. My wife is working from home. My kids are home. My wife's doing, you know, God bless her, she's doing the bulk of dealing with the kids' schoolwork and everything. And it's not easy. And I think a lot of us out going through the same thing can attest to trying, but we're going to be here to try and keep bringing episodes and getting your mind off it if we can

for an hour at a time. And hopefully this is over before too long. Yeah. I mean, that's all we can hope for. And that we get through this curve, right, as quickly as possible. I hate to look at the news or, you know, the websites and see these numbers. continue to climb. They're scary. But, you know, speaking of people finding podcasts and trying to find things to stay occupied, you know, there's probably more of a lot of our listeners

that may not have heard some of our older episodes that are on Stitcher Premium. Maybe it's a great time to check out Stitcher Premium, use that 30-day free trial. We've got a lot of really good episodes out there. Yeah, I just checked and we have like 80 episodes on Stitcher Premium. So many cases, we've covered serial killers, missing persons, a bunch of really bizarre cases that people have reached out to tell us that they enjoyed hearing about. So go out and give it a try. I got nothing to lose with a 30 day free trial. So Moore, if you and I made a statement at the beginning of the year that we were going to try to cover more cases outside of the U.S. And in this episode, We have one of those cases.

It's the case of a missing little boy named William Tyrell. This boy's sweet little face has been seen countless times on Australian TV. This is a very well-known and perplexing case in that country. William Tyrell captured the hearts of Australians and many others around the world when he disappeared in September 2014. The blue-eyed toddler, dressed in a Spider-Man costume, seemed very happy and excited in the very last picture taken of William. But then he was gone, vanished without a trace in broad daylight from a residential area in a New South Wales town. And to this day, no one knows what happened to three-year-old William Tyrell.

Carly Tyrell and Brendan Collins became a couple in 2009, but never married. At the time, Brendan was working as a construction excavator in Granville, a western Sydney suburb. Their relationship was doomed from the start and filled with domestic disputes. Police had even been called to their home. On June 26, 2011, William Tyrell was born to the couple, but a new baby didn't help the relationship, and the conflict between the two continued. Brendan and Carly were ordered to participate in a domestic violence course and to not associate with one another. Around this time, a wealthy couple from Sydney applied to become foster parents.

Soon after, they were approved by the New South Wells Department of Family Community Services, commonly referred to as FACS. Between 2011 and 2012, Faxx learned that Carly Tyrell and Brendan Collins were back together. Fax told the foster couple that William was going to be removed from his birth, family and put into their care. This couple has never been publicly identified and decided to keep their identities private. In February 2012, facts obtained corridors to remove William from his birth mother, Carly Tyrell. On February 8th, 2012, assisted by Brendan's mother, Natalie Collins, Carly and Brendan took off with William and hid in a granny flat in Sydney's Upper North Shore.

a granny flat is like a small apartment. Some people might call it a mother-in-law suite. It's really designed for one, maybe two people, definitely not for an entire family. Fax and police issued a warrant for Carly Tyrell's arrest. And on February 16th, 2012, Fax approved the Sydney couple as Williams' caregivers. Then on March 15th, 2012, William Tyrell was found with his biological parents in Sydney and removed from their care. In the very next day, he was placed with his new foster parents who were supervised by a group named Wesley Mission. Between March and September 2012, Carly and Brendan were allowed to see William once every two weeks for one to three hours.

at a stretch. In July 2012, New South Wales FACS awarded the Salvation Army of Foster Contract under its New Young Hope out of home care service, which has since been disbanded. On September 5th, the Salvation Army's Young Hope was accredited by the Children's Guardian to manage foster care for facts. Young Hope was going to handle 130 children in its first three years. One of those children was William Tyrell. A few months later, William's biological parents, Carly and Brendan, were told the foster parents

were not comfortable meeting them. So Ben Atwood, a supervisor with the Salvation Army out of home care, began supervising the visits. On one visit in March 2013, the foster mother dropped William off for a contact visit with his biological parents and never spoke to either parent. The supervised visits continued into 2014, but were cut down to a one-hour. hour of visit every seven to eight weeks. In April of that year on a contact visit, William called Carly his birth mum, instead of just mum. Carly was upset by William's confusion. During the summer of 2014, William's foster parents took William and their biological daughter to Bali for vacation. It was in Bali that they bought William a Spider-Man costume. In August 2014, Ben Atwood called

Carly Tyrell to tell her that William had sustained a black eye when he climbed on his foster father and he lost his balance and he fell. Carly also learned that the foster parents had plans to adopt William permanently. Carly later said at an inquest that she did not agree with the adoption plan and that Carly and Brendan were still trying to get William back. On August 21st, 2014, Carly and Brendan visited William at the Chipmunks' Playland and Cafe in northern Sydney. Carly noticed that William was more affectionate with her than usual, and it was at this point that she saw his black eye. At the visit, Brendan and Carly gave William clothes and shoes, and he hugged and kissed them before they said goodbye. But Morp, they never saw their son.

on again. A few days later, William Tyrell's foster parents were preparing William and his sister for a 344-kilometer trip to William's adoptive grandmother's home, located at 48 Benerun Drive in Kendall. This was William's adoptive mother's mother. They were helping to sort through property prior to her house going up for sale. The family planned to arrive in Kendall on Friday, September 12th, 2014. Contracts were exchanged on the Benerun Drive home. after the grandmother sold property to a friend of a friend during the week of September 8th, 2014. It was around this time when Ben Atwood was planning another supervised visit between William and his birth parents for October. He called Carly about those plans, and she told him that the last time she saw William,

she was worried that he was a little bit too skinny. On a last-minute change of plans, the foster parents left their home in Sydney at 2.50 p.m. on Thursday, day, September 11th, 2014. At 4 p.m., they picked up William and his sister from child care, and they started the long drive up to Kendall one day earlier than they originally planned. The foster grandmother didn't know that they would be arriving early. At 6.35 p.m., the family stopped at a McDonald's to grab some dinner, and then they headed back on the road. They arrived at the grandmother's home and Kendall at 9 p.m. William and his sister were put to bed in different rooms. And the foster mother had a discussion with her mom about her broken washing machine.

Around midnight, the foster father ran to McDonald's for hotcakes and the foster mother went to bed. They had no idea. Their lives were about to be turned upside down and forever changed in the blink of an eye. A big part of this case are the details, so we're going to carefully go over the timeline of September 12, 2014. On that Friday, between 7 and 7.30 a.m., William's foster mother awoke in a room with William's sister. She heard William playing in the next room. She and her daughter tried to go back to sleep, but they couldn't. At 8 a.m., William and his sister woke up their foster grandmother. William pulled out all of his toys from the bedroom that he was sharing with his foster father

and started playing with them in the lounge room, or what we would call in the States a living room. Shortly after, the family ate a breakfast of toast, eggs, and wheat bick cereal. At around 9 a.m., the foster mother phoned a washing machine repairman. The call lasted 38 seconds, going straight to voicemail. The foster father left the home between 9 a.m. and 9.30 and went to nearby Lakewood. He needed a solid internet connection for a Skype.

business call. He later stopped at a pharmacy in Lakewood and had some prescriptions filled. It was around this same time that William and his sister went outside to ride bikes in the driveway. A little bit after that, William and his foster mother played a game called Mummy Monster. It was basically a game where they would roar at one another. After the game, William's foster mother went inside the home and made some tea. When she went back outside, she took a picture of William sitting on the veranda in his Spider-Man suit, roaring like a tiger. It was 9.37 a.m. This was the last photo taken of William Tyrell. And it later became an iconic picture of the little boy shared all around the world.

And Morp, it's this Spider-Man costume, the one that the first. The one that the foster parents had purchased for William in Bali. He was so excited that day to wear it. He couldn't wait to get it on. I think any of us that have a child that age, we know how passionate they are when they have a favorite costume or a cape or a favorite blanket, whatever it may be. They don't want to be separated from it. And I could totally see little William being enamored with this Spider-Man costume.

Yeah, I mean, to your point, you know, not only excited to put it on, but as you and I have both probably experienced, sometimes it's very hard to get children to take it off and put something else on. My girls, they just wanted to wear these little princess dresses. And it didn't matter if they had two or three of them. There was one at that particular time that they wanted to wear and they wanted to wear it every day. As the foster mom and grandmother drank their tea, William jumped around the veranda, and he was again roaring while playing a new game called Daddy Tiger. It was between 10 a.m. and 10.30 a.m. Suddenly, the roaring fell silent, and the foster mom ran around the outside of the house trying to find William in the yard. She then went inside the house to look for him, but he was nowhere to be found.

The foster mom approached a neighbor named Anne Marie sharply, asking her if she had seen a little boy, but she hadn't. Anne-Marie was the first to help the mom search for little William. While this search was happening, the foster father sent the mom a text saying that he was about five minutes from the house. He arrived back at the Benaroon drive home around 10.30 a.m. When the mother told him that William had disappeared, the foster father just bolted. He took off running to try to find William. he spent about 25 minutes, searching the neighborhood for the little boy, but never found him. At 10.56 a.m., the foster mother dialed Australia's emergency number, triple zero.

Police arrived 10 minutes later at 11.06 a.m. They, along with neighbors and some local residents, joined in the search. Police began going door to door, asking if people had seen the little boy. the foster mother also called the Salvation Army to inform them that William was missing. Sometime between 4 and 4.30 p.m., police knocked on the door of William's birth parents at their Sydney home. Brendan was gone, but Carly was there. Police asked her if she knew where William was and then searched her home. William wasn't there. Carly was crying and confused, unsure of what was happening.

She was devastated when police informed her that William was. was missing. Brendan arrived home a short while later and found out that his son was missing. He reportedly seemed surprised. In the suburbs of D.C., a woman fails to show up for work and is found brutally murdered. I wonder which emergency. We just walked in the door and there's blood in the foyer. For the next two decades, the case remained unsolved until new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. blood and water listen now wherever you get your podcasts and said he's fucking what by 5 p.m

their searchers on bennaroon drive were exhausted so neighbor lydine heslop provided food for them at 6 a.m the next morning saturday september 13th a large-scale search was initiated to find william a command post was set up at nearby kendall showgrounds and police encouraged volunteers to wear high visibility gear to aid in the search with officers, sniffer dogs, and state emergency services. If you love chilling mysteries, unsolved cases, and a touch of mom-style humor, moms and mysteries is the podcast you've been searching for.

Hey guys, I'm Mandy. And I'm Melissa. Join us every Tuesday for moms and mysteries, your gateway to gripping, well-researched true crime stories. Each week, we deep dive into a variety of mind-boggling cases as we shed light on everything from heist to who, Donnets, where you're your go-to podcast for Mysteries with a Motherly Touch. Subscribe now to Moms and Mysteries wherever you get your podcast.

Hundreds of volunteers registered to search, including locals on horseback and trail bikes to comb rugged terrain. Many brought their own dogs to search what was described as the scrub near Benaroon Drive and the Kendall and Middle Brother State Forest. Also participating in the search were surf lifesavers, more of essentially like what we would call lifeguards here in the United States, and the rural fire service. At 9.20 a.m., police increased the search area. They sent divers to check dams and waterways. The search team looked day and night for William for about 10 days. On September 14, 2014, two days after William vanished, his foster mother gave him, her first statement to police, while hundreds continued to search in rugged terrain.

Over the next couple of days, investigators began speaking to local residents and sex offenders in the Bid North Coast region. A few days later on September 18th, the foster mother picked up a relative from Port McCory Airport and suddenly remembered seeing two unknown cars on Benerun Drive right around the time William disappeared, one at 7.30 a.m. and the other at 9 a.m. on September 14th. One of these cars was an older gray sedan, and the other a white station wagon. They were parked on the street outside the foster grandmother's home. The cars were dirty and had missing hubcaps and tinted windows. The driver's windows were rolled down. The foster mother didn't recognize the cars, nor did any of the neighbors when questioned by police.

The vehicles were never seen again. A local resident named Ron Chapman told police he also saw two vehicles on the morning William disappeared, one with a boy in the backseat wearing a Spider-Man costume, driving away from the area where William was last seen. Chapman lived on Laurel Street, just northeast of Benaroon Drive, and had opened his front door at 1045 a.m. on September 12th because he thought he heard the postman. Instead, he saw an old box type four-wheel drive. later said to be a Toyota land cruiser being driven by a woman in her late 20s, maybe early 30s, with the boy in the back seat. The boy was standing, unrestrained, with his hands up against the window.

He didn't appear to be crying or in any type of distress. The female driver was driving fast enough to where she almost lost control of her vehicle as she came around the corner at a wide angle. This is all according to Ron Chapman. Chapman then said he saw an iridescent blue car, driven by a man about 50 meters behind the Toyota. And Chapman later said at an inquest that he was 100% sure. The boy in the other vehicle was William. Shortly after Ron Chapman gave his statement, William's foster mom gave the police a second statement.

She told them that while searching for William on September 12th, she thought she heard a scream, that she said was, quote, similar to the sound a child makes when they hurt themselves. She said it was quick, high-pitched, and sharp. But when she was unable to see the right of William's Spider-Man suit, she wondered if it had been a bird or if she had imagined it. A week after William Tyrell vanished without a trace, they had cleared William's foster family and birth parents of any involvement in his disappearance. and they believed William was abducted by a stranger who may have been involved with a pedophile ring.

On January 21st, 2015, police descended on the town of Luriton. And specifically on a house in Bonnie Hills, New South Wales, that belonged to a 63-year-old washing machine repair man named Bill Spedding. Spedding also owned a pawn shop in Luriton about 12 kilometers from Kendall. Spedding gave the foster grandmother a washing machine repair estimate about four days before William disappeared. Bill Spedding was the man that William's foster mother attempted to call right before he vanished. But as we mentioned, that call went straight to voicemail. So armed with a search warrant, police searched Spedding's rural Bonnie Hill's property as well as his pawn shop. They brought in an excavator.

and they drained the septic tank. Police seized a number of items from the home, but they didn't find anything. Not a thing related to Williams' disappearance. Court documents revealed that between 1983 and 1985, police had charged spedding with multiple child's sexual abuse offenses. These included various counts of indecent assault and sexual intercourse with children.

He had also been accused of indecently assaulting a child in a lounge room. Later, on July 4th, 2016, Victoria Police charged spedding with seven child sex crimes offenses, but police cleared spedding of any connection with Williams' disappearance. A convicted pedophile named Tony Jones also became a person of interest. On the morning of September 12, 2014, Jones told his wife at the time, Debbie Jones, that he was heading into the Bego State Forest to collect

scrap metal with his son, Dwayne Gardell. Later in the day, Debbie asked Dwayne if he had seen Tony, but Dwayne said that no, he hadn't seen his father at all that day. Tony Jones was a member of a group called Grandparents as Parents Again, or Gappa for short, police believed Gapha had links to a pedophile ring operating on the Mid-North Coast at the time William was abducted. Tony's close friend, Paul Bickford, was a one-time president of Gapha. Bickford was given a suspended jail sentence for the indecent assault of an underage person. Tony Jones has been convicted twice of assaulting women, and in 2015, he was convicted for the aggravated indecent assault of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to a maximum of three years in prison, and he was released by early 2018.

At an inquest in March 2020, Tony Jones claimed he had no recollection whatsoever of his whereabouts on the day William disappeared. He said that if he wasn't scrapping metal, he was probably sleeping with Debbie's friend next door. He has always denied any involvement in William's abduction. So obviously more if this is a good guy. I mean, you know, hey, if I wasn't scrapping metal, I was sleeping with my wife's best friend. It was one of the other, that's all. After William's abduction, there were thousands of sightings of the little boy reported in Australia, but none of them amounted to anything.

One was of a photograph taken of an adult male with a young boy from Queensland, who looked very similar to William. The picture was sent to investigators in June 2015. 24 hours later, police received another call. confirming that the boy in the picture was not William. On New Year's Day, 2016, two passengers and a member of the flight crew thought that they saw William on their plane bound for New Zealand.

And police were waiting for the plane at the airport, but they discovered that this little boy was not William Tyrell. Within days of William's abduction, a strike force named Rosanne was formed to invest. William's disappearance. It included sex crimes investigators, detectives from the mid-north coast and Manning Great Lakes Local Area Command, as well as officers from the Forensic Services Group, and the state crime command. Strike Force Roseanne was based at Port Macquarie, roughly 35 kilometers from Kendall. Detective Chief Inspector Gary Dublin

took over the investigation, which was the largest in the state, and became head of Strike Force Roseanne in 2015. The strike force had identified almost 700 persons of interest. And over time, the size of the strike force was increased. On September 12th, 2016, the New South Wales Premier Mike Bear and the police commissioner announced a $1 million reward at a news conference. It's the largest reward offered in New South Wales history. Officials hoped it would encourage people with information on William's disappearance to come forward. Normally, rewards were paid out on the arrest and conviction of the offender. But the recovery of William was added as a condition of this reward.

More if the disappearance of William Tyrell is a huge case. You know, it reached Europe. It reached the United States. Crime stoppers in as many as 26 different countries were asked by new. South Wales Crime Stoppers to publish an article about William's abduction on their websites, asking anyone with info to contact Australian police. New Zealand crime stoppers was one of the first to publish an article about William. They posted a picture of William with an appeal for information on their homepage.

There have been numerous searches over the year since William's abduction, but none of them produced any evidence as to what happened to William. Tyrell. Between June and July 2018, police carried out a large scale of four-week search in the New South Wells Bushland. Police weren't expecting to find Williams remains.

Instead, they were hoping to rule out an accident and confirm that he was actually abducted from his foster grandmother's home. About 50 officers from the public order and riot squad were seen carrying brown science bags in and out of the cordoned off bush tracks

as the search kicked off. They scoured roughly 600 square meters of bush near Kendall with hose, picks, and shovels. Tracking dogs were also deployed. One of the objects found was a toy, but we weren't able to find any information on whether or not the foster mother was able to confirm the toy belonged to William. On June 27, 2018, Inspector Jubilin confirmed a new area was being searched. He sent a search team into Bushland at Cedars Law. Uggersland and Batar Creek Road in Batar Creek. This is just about four kilometers south of Kendall where William vanished.

According to Jublin, the area was searched as a result of information uncovered in the course of the investigation. Three months later, investigators found a burnt out car that was left deep in the bush near the Benaroon Drive home. William vanished from. police believe the car belonged to Tony Jones, who had previously been a person of interest in the case. They had received the tip about the car, but when they found it, the car had been flipped and set on fire. Almost a year later in August 2019, investigators found a makeshift grave that bore a wooden cross marked 2014.

The year Little William disappeared. It also contained blue plastic, so investigators carefully dug around it. They unwrapped the plastic and discovered the remains of a small dog. Police also received a tip around the same time about someone who had been in a cemetery and had moved certain headstones around. Investigators went to the cemetery with a tracking dog in tow. They found a cubby house with a hand-painted sign that read Cooper's Cubby. A cubby house is similar to a tree house, only it's on the ground. Police also found the sole of a small shoe and a structure that resembled.

some sort of shrine, but no evidence of William's fate was found. In late August 2017, a bombshell was dropped on the Australian public when it was revealed that William Tyrell was in foster care at the time of his abduction. And more if that's something we really haven't talked about yet. We mentioned up front that the foster parents have kept their anonymity. But up to this point in August 2017, that had been kept quiet. And it was only revealed after Fax lost a bid for a permanent injunction to stop an advocacy group called Walking for Warriors from publishing the information, Fax had threatened journalists with convictions

if they had revealed William was in foster care at the time he disappeared. During the appeal, Fax argued that the stigma of being in foster care would have a negative impact on William if he was found to be alive. But the New South Wales Supreme Court of Appeals ruled, quote, the fact he disappeared while in the care of the minister was one of legitimate public interest. The information was made public on Channel 9's A Current Affair program. Because William was in foster care at the time of his abduction, the identities of his foster parents and grandmother have never been revealed. Furthermore, the foster parents had not been allowed to publicly speak about William's disappearance prior to the Supreme Court ruling. Afterwards,

they appeared on Australia's 60-minute show on the condition that their faces were not shown. The identity of William's biological parents was also kept from the public until the Supreme Court ruling. In 2018, William Tyrell's biological grandmother, Natalie Collins, spoke to in an exclusive interview with news.com.a.u. She revealed William's close relationship with his birth father, Brendan. On the last day Brendan and Carly had with William, Natalie said William clung to Brendan and cried, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, I love you. Natalie also revealed that Brendan turned to drugs after his son's disappearance and claimed he doesn't even know what day it is.

He's too far gone on drugs. He became a recluse and treated his mother horribly. He also briefly landed in jail. Natalie made it clear that Brendan never drank alcohol or used drugs before William vanished. Natalie claimed the foster parents were strict with William and discarded $2,000 in gifts given to the boy, by his birth parents. She also said that the case has been marred by, quote, lies and bullshit, and listed a number of things police failed to investigate, including the carving of the words

William Dad on a tree near the Benerun Drive home and an escape route from the supposedly dead-end street. After Brendan was released from jail, he was put in Penrith Hospital for an infection. He had lost a lot of weight, and he walked out saying, I've done the crime, I've done some time. Brendan locked all the windows and broke the toilet. He was so messed up at this time he had no idea he was in a hospital. Natalie begged authorities to help her son and went to the media for additional aid. But it's unclear if Brendan received the help he needed. Over the years, there have been several inquests into the disappearance of William Tyrell.

Much of the information we know now about his abduction was only released after testimony given at each inquest. in 2019, an inquest was held in March, and then in August, and then continued into 2020. It was recently halted in March 2020 due to the coronavirus outbreak. Many people gave testimony at this inquest, including William's adoptive parents as well as his birth parents. Back in March 2019, Carly Tyrell and Brendan Klonon, told the inquest why they hid William from authorities in 2012. Carly was emotional during her testimony and told the court she was very angry and upset when she was informed of William's abduction.

Her police statement was read to the court in which she denied abducting William. More than 50 names were set to be called to give evidence. Two of them were Bill Spetting and Tony Jones. Another man named Paul Savage was set to appear as well. Some witnesses who took the stand, disputed The foster mother story have seen two cars on Benaroon Drive on the morning William vanished. These witnesses were adamant. The cars that were described were not there. And I think more of this cast some doubt over the foster mom's account. One woman said she was positive. She would have noticed the cars as vehicles were rarely parked on Benaroon Drive. Ron Chapman testified about seeing the little boy in the backseat of the Toyota Land Cruiser.

In early September 2019, there was confusion regarding the time the last photo of William Tyrell was taken. A document inside the brief of evidence at the inquest revealed a, quote, created time for the image of 7.39 a.m. And a quote, corrected time of 937 a.m. according to news.com. A.U. A picture's metadata, known as XIF data, is like a digital fingerprint in printing the date and time the picture was created. There are various reasons why XIF data could be displayed wrong, like the camera's date and time settings set up incorrectly. More if I know, there have been a number of cases solved using this type of picture data. Now, I think in this case, I don't know that it makes any difference, whether the picture was taken at 739 or 937, to me, it almost looks like those

numbers were just transposed by somebody. It's the same numbers just backwards. Yeah, we see cases of clerical errors or someone typing in something wrong, so maybe that's all that is. Later that same month, the New South Wales Corner released never before seen photos of William Tyrell, taken the day he vanished. In the pictures, William is dressed in his Spider-Man costume, and he's sitting on the floor drawing with crayons. Two months later in November, the deputy state coroner approved the release of CCTV footage of William and his foster family at a McDonald's restaurant. They're seen entering the restaurant on the evening of September 11th, 2014. And in one image, William, is seen on his foster father's shoulders.

They ordered their meal at 6.25 p.m. and they sat down at the bench opposite the counter. At 6.40 p.m., William and his foster family left the McDonald's. And in the footage, you can see William and his foster mother stopping to throw something away in the trash. William then runs off to catch up with his foster dad. the very next day, he vanished. In February 2020, Detective Chief Inspector Gary Jubilan was facing charges of illegally recording

four conversations with a man named Paul Savage. Savage was a former person of interest in Williams' abduction. Police were investigating Savage in Williams' abduction, and Jubilin allegedly planted listening devices in his home without Savage's knowledge. In the final recording that took place in December 2018, which became the suburb. subject of one of four charges, Jubilant confronted Savage and repeatedly suggested Savage had mental health issues, which clouded his version of events. In court, Detective Sergeant Laura Beecroft testified about the secret recordings. She said that while the listening devices were in Savage's home, they also recorded him talking to his deceased wife. He was heard saying things like, quote, don't tell anyone that. Don't tell anyone

love, they're right after me. Sorry. He also used the words, you're just a little boy, you're nobody. But the detective agreed that the quality of the recording was not good and the strike force was divided about exactly what was heard on that tape. So obviously that means the quality was not good at all. Jubilant contested the allegations saying taping was necessary, because of the possibility that Savage would take his own life over the allegations that he had abducted William Tyrell. The case against Jubilant caused a division within the strike force. During court, Jublin testified that his senior officer pointed to a picture of William Tyrell and said, quote, nobody cares about that little kid.

Get him off the books. Get him to unsolved homicide. In a video interview with internal investigators in 2019, Jubilin said he was, quote, unduly targeted in a jarring and sensitive manner by New South Wales police. The interview was played in court in February 2020. During Jublin's testimony, Crown prosecutor Philip Hogan accused him of lying about his senior officer's comment to him. Jubilin said he totally disagreed. Jublin quit the force in July 2019. And in December of that year, his senior officer was promoted to assistant commissioner.

But here's the big thing to me, Morve, William Tyrell's foster mother backed Jublin's story. She testified that early in the investigation, she was introduced to then senior officer Cook. They exchanged pleasantries. But then Cook said to her, quote, you are not the only family that are victims of crime. She went on to say that this guy said, William is not our only case. And then she said to him, William is three years old. He was taken from his grandmother's house.

It was a street with probably 20 houses on it. We were sitting just around the corner. I don't think you've got any other cases that describe that. And I don't think you can just give up on it. And she said, he didn't have a wrong. reply for that. So more if, I mean, there's a lot to this, right? But what I take from this interaction is that the foster mother believed that William's case was not taken seriously, at least by this man for sure. I think what her issue is, is she doubts their commitment and their efforts

to find William. Yeah, it definitely sounds like that, right? Some of it back then and definitely some much of it today. In late 2019, detectives questioned a new person of interest, a man named Frank Abbott, who was in jail for an unrelated crime. New South Wells Police had searched a sawmill on Heron's Creek Road where Abbott lived at the time William vanished from nearby Kendall. The property had already been searched in August 2019. In March 2020, at the Enquest hearing, a young girl that the court called Tanya testified that two boys were sitting with her in her bedroom when one said, I know who killed William. The boy indicated that Frank Abbott had him in a suitcase and the boys had seen the suitcase. The young girl said that these two boys said William was dead,

but they had not seen the body. One of the boys told her they had been warned. If they told anyone, then their mom's neck would get snapped. The young girl told the court that the boy was serious but frightened. Then a few days later, a nurse testified who worked at a Port McCory nursing home where she helped a dying patient named Ray Porter. This woman said, Porter told her in April 2018 that he had picked up his best mate and the missing toddler William Tyrell. at a Kindle school and drove them 300 kilometers.

He said he didn't hurt the boy. He only took part in the taking of William. This guy never mentioned his best friend's full name, but apparently he only spoke of two friends. And one was known as Frank. Another man named Danny Parrish also testified at the inquest. He said on several occasions, Frank Abbott claimed to have knowledge of William's whereabouts.

and suggested that another local man named Jeff Owens, buried William. Owens worked on the foster grandmother's Benerun Drive home. Parrish said Abbott was telling this story to everyone in a suburb of Melbourne called Q. Parrish also added that he was afraid of Abbott after he bragged about beating a murder charge twice, and the Abbott claimed he wasn't afraid to go to prison, because he would get three square meals a day. The inquest hearings were scheduled to finish on Friday, March 20, 2020, but were halted due to the coronavirus. Frank Abbott has yet to be called to testify, and he's currently being held at the Cessnaut Correctional Center. In February 2020, a 51-year-old

woman named Lisa Watmore falsely accused William's foster father of involvement in his son's abduction. Lisa called him on pay phones 14 times, over an eight-hour period threatening him. She was arrested and charged with using the phone to menace, harass, and offend. But the strange thing to me is this woman never had even met, the foster father. In June 2019, an Australian student listening to a lecture from self-proclaimed U.S. psychic Pam Coronado suggested she tried to find William, expecting to see William deceased in her vision. She was shocked when she saw him alive and well, living in what she thought was Western Australia. Pam said William seemed like he was happy, that he was safe and being cared for. Whoever was taken care of him, William trusted and felt secure

with. She could see a man who looked like an adult version of William. Pam said in her vision, this man was on a motorbike and looked like a cool character. Pam's never been to Australia, but according to her, in her vision she saw William on a school playground with a dome and old steel monkey bars. He was dressed in some sort of academy uniform. Police never commented on Pam's vision. William Tyrell's fate remains unknown. But we talked about it more if this investigation is ongoing. The inquest is technically ongoing. It was put on hold due to the situation that everyone around the world is experiencing with the coronavirus. We don't know. What details may come out whenever this inquest resumes, there could be some very interesting information that comes out.

But I think one thing is very clear that in Australia, this is a huge case. The disappearance of William Tyrell. It's a case that a lot of people care about. It's a case that a lot of people talk about. I really think in Australia, this case is on par with some of our very famous unsolved cases here in the U.S. No doubt. It's a puzzling case and it's one that I think everyone hopes one day will be solved.

More if I do think it's a case with some interesting characters. There have been some persons of interest over the years. I think there to this day remains some people on the radar that a lot of people continue to look at. Now, police have said, okay, some of these folks have been ruled out, but I don't think everyone has. There's really an assorted cast of characters. You've got sex offenders. You've got people making deathbed confessions. You've got the foster parents remembering things after the fact. And, you know, not to be accusatory, but is that just something that just came back to her?

or is it something that in her mind she's thinking of that didn't really happen? It's hard to say and it just clouds the entire investigation of. Well, it would be different if neighbors came along and said, oh, yeah, yeah, I remember that. But you specifically have a number of neighbors who on the stand have said, no, never saw those cars that she's talking about. And, you know, to me, there are some differences. right in how things work in Australia, I was particularly kind of enthralled with the fact that, okay, this little boy was missing for years and his biological parents couldn't talk to the

press, right? They couldn't make a plea for his safe return. And his foster family couldn't either. I mean, that's something that you would probably see here in the U.S. right? The family would come out and and go on video and say, hey, please bring our child back to us. They weren't even allowed to divulge who they were. And maybe we're not used to here in the States. I think in an investigation, it wouldn't matter if someone was adopted or not, if they were missing. But for whatever reason in Australia, they seem to keep that part silent and not want

that to be known. Yeah, I never really got the reasoning behind. it. You know, there was talk about possible stigma being attached with the fact that, okay, if he's found later on and people know that he was in the foster care system, I didn't quite understand that part morph, but, you know, every place is a little different, right? We've learned that over the years, both of us have with all the different types of cases that we've done. But I think, you know, in the end, to sum it up, this is a very, very, very, sad case. We're talking about a very young child who went through quite a lot in, you know,

his limited number of years. And you just want for everybody involved to be able to know what happened. I think for both the adopted parents and Williams biological parents, it's obvious that they cared for him and want to know what happened and to have a young child like that just missing. It's got to leave a void in their lives. Oh, for sure. For sure. Thanks goes out to Debbie Buck at TruecrimeDiva.com for writing and research assistants in this episode. As always, if you love the show, take a minute. Go out, give us a five-star rating. That helps a lot. It helps propel the show and allows other people to find us. If you want to find us on social media, we're on Twitter with the handle at Criminology Pod. You can also find us on Facebook by searching

for Criminology Podcast or by joining our Facebook discussion group, which is Criminology Podcasts, Discussion and Fans. All right, Morf, that's it for another episode of Criminology. But you and I will be back with everyone next Saturday night. Hopefully, you know, us continuing to put out episodes is a distraction for everybody. It's helping everybody in some small way. We all need something right now with everything that we're going through. so we will continue to try to do that.

So for Mike and Morph. We'll talk to you next week. Take care of everyone.