Critical Role & Sagas of Sundry - One Night Only | Sagas of Sundry: Madness

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

Sit down with us as the cast and creators of Madness have a discussion around the show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One day, you're negotiating with suppliers. The next, you're installing a shelf in the back room. Running a business means moving in many directions all the time. TD's new small business banking accounts are built for how your business moves. It's how we're making banking more human. Hello and welcome, one and all, but mostly one to one night, onely. And because I like saying it clearly, one, guys, this is the show where we take actors, writers, producers, game makers and otherwise talented human beings,

force them to sit down and talk to you, our wonderful community. I'm Amy Vorepal, I'm your host for tonight, and I'm wearing more sequins than I've ever worn in my entire life. Happy to be a... Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, please laugh, or else I feel like I'm talking into a void. Which... which... I'm not on this show, so you can't do to me, Ivan. Um...

Wow! Folks, if you are just randomly popping into Alpha being like, hey, what's going on on Alpha? What is going on on Alpha? Something's going on. Then I want to tell you tonight, you are in for a treat. Later in the year, last year, Saga's of Sundry, Season 2 Madness, dropped, and piles and stacks of you tuned in to watch all eight episodes. This is a, what I like to call it, a house. half RPG, half Jeff Propp's style reality challenge show, focusing mainly on the story and acting.

It bonded our friends that played strangers over their shared experience with their apartment buildings, their neuroses and issues, and most of all, their need for survival. Role players that you know and love were ultimately transformed. Friendships were made and lost, and Ivan Van Norman turned into literal nightmare fuel. So it is my pleasure to announce that tonight we get to talk to these wonderfully talented people who are involved with every step of the process. You get to ask your questions and we get to have fun mainly. There shouldn't be any madness, but in case there is, I don't know, buckle up, hold onto your butts and all that stuff. For now, welcome to one night only, sagas of sundry madness.

Again, I'm Amy Vorpaul, and I'm happy to introduce you to the first part of the show, which is the time when we get to interview the crew is what we're calling it, basically the backbone of why the show even exists. So hold your applause for the end. I want to go through and tell you who we're meeting tonight. So first off, we have Brad Bailey, the production and art designer. Then we have Denise Pantoja, the producer of the series, Adam Lawson, our director, and Ivan Van Norman,

the storyteller slash creative director slash a lot of other things that none of you would ever know, so I'll just, we picked a hyphen up before the show, and it's sparkle happy bunny friend. And we're sticking with it. And he's quite good at that. The sparkling part and the bunny part. Yeah, I think so.

It should be on your resume if it's not. So first of all, I want to ask all of you, feel free to tell me, well, maybe we'll just go down the line, but how did you get involved? I know we have some new faces. We have some faces from season one, but how did you get involved?

I actually got involved with, actually by Denise and DJ because we had done Askerbach Geekren first, right? Yeah, and then this came up and then we jumped on it and ran with it from there. And you've got designed other things for Geek and Sundry

as well, right? Ask Your Black Geek Friend, Madness One Night only Thrash Topia, Painters Guild, starter kit. Heard of it? And so that we know, Brad killed himself making this one in particular.

Yeah, it was a rough one. It was a rough one. It was definitely a rough one. This guy, I can't say. thank you enough to. He did good stuff. There was some stories about me walking into the back and Brad sleeping in his van in between build sessions so that he can make the deadline that we imposed on it. It was actually TJ's van.

T.J.'s van. And the hallway and the closet and wherever else was flat and dark. Is T.J.'s van the next series that we're doing on Gay Consumption? T.J.'s van. Let's do the horrors of T. You can't believe you just dropped that season three hint right there. That was totally out of line. The pizza monster's coming for you.

Well, thank you, Brad. Denise, how did you find yourself involved? Well, I was actually brought in by T.J. Rotel, who is head of production. I've heard of him, yeah. He's got a van, apparently. Yeah, he's the van owner, but he's also head of production over at Geegan Sundry. and I was originally brought out to produce Threshtopia, which we started in August. And unfortunately, the previous producer for Sages of Sundry, Tracy King, did a great job on the first season,

but she was booked for something else. I was going to help her out on that, but I ended up just jumping into that role and running with it. Yeah, we tried not to kill Brad, but we came close a couple of times. I tried not to kill me, too. Adam, I know you're a diehard fan. Did you just send in your fan mail and say, please? That's what it was. I sent in a YouTube link of here's my ideas.

And Ivan and Sean said, that's it. That's it. We've got you in. I mean, I have been with the Geek and Sundry family for forever. I, from season one of Tabletop back in the day, it was Will and I conceiving the format for the show back before it was teen. In fact, it was a thing. And I've done all those seasons and spell slingers and Forrestrae and a lot here at this place.

And I love it. And it's season two for me. And Ivan and I have the very best of time doing it. So that's how I get in. Yeah. Really, I was like, Adam, I need you. I'm doing this show. I have no idea what I'm doing.

Come bail me out. And he made it amazing. And that's in reference to. season one, right? And then season two, it was, it was excruciatingly clear that we couldn't have another show without loss and bringing it to it. I mean, come on, I could do it. But no. No, no, I agree that after season one, it was very apparent that this is the team. Adam literally brings a expertise, skill, and look to the season, and the entire saga of the sundry that it would be impossible. to replicate without his ability to be able to bring his awesome team.

And more definitely, like, this man cracks the whip, like nobody cracks the whip when it comes to making sure that a story is being delivered in the way that it should be done. So, no. I mean, everyone celebrates the storyteller as far as bringing the story goes, but it would not be Saugos of Sundry without Adam. So, yeah, seriously. Very, very nice. I also love that while we were showing the intro, you guys still had more comments. comments about it and the kind of notes you were giving each other. Like it just doesn't stop.

It just doesn't stop. It's like, oh, can we make this 1% even 1% better? I was telling him that I was initially very worried about some of the props that we had for this season, that they weren't as visually whiz-bang-cac-a-boom-dum as they were for season one, but how he was able to utilize mostly the notes that a lot of the stuff that I wrote, like the day before shooting, really looked like had an institutionalized look that really made that. The notes that the Guardian had made or kept on each of the characters.

Yeah, the notes of the Guardian had made explicitly. They're in your handwriting? They're in my handwriting. Classic. My terrible handwriting. And that ended up being like the thing that really made it look, you know, thankfully my handwriting is terrifying. Yeah, agree.

So, I'm sorry, did I answer my question? Well, I think I know the answer. or is it how you came into this is that you've been prepping for this your entire life. This is kind of where... I came up with the show. You were always meant to be. Yeah, you're part of the Gig and Sundry family

and you've been doing this kind of shit forever. Great. Brad, I actually do have a question for you. So you're coming into this kind of, obviously with a big old background in set design and art design. You do have something to live up to, though, with Dred as its own,

little manifesto of art too. So how does that fly and how much influence did you have versus how much did Adam and Ivan talked to you and tell you what to do? Well, when we initially talked about it, I think the layout was already set. Like the layout for the hotel was set. And then we started talking about it. And I think me and Adam actually had the same ideas about the whole thing. Because as soon as I heard about it, I was like, okay, this is Tower of Terror and American

Artur Story Hotel in my head. And then we started pulling reference photos and we actually ended up pulling some of the same reference photos. So we were pretty much on the same page. Pretty great. But for sure. It was great. That day the Google Lords were like, what is going on? Why is everyone typing in creepy building? It was fun for me with this one, as

opposed to the first season was being able to take it into multiple spaces. And actually getting into more a dimension in this environment that the people were in. So that was really fun being able to like, okay, how do we utilize all this space? And what kind of fun stuff can we put into it given the time and, you know, budget we had to do it

with, which is pretty short. Because I think we had about three and a half or four days to do that whole set. And that's why you're sleeping in a van. Yeah, and the floor and bathroom and everywhere. It was the big thing that we wanted to do. Adam and I explicitly said, okay, this season, we did great with the campfire set, which we did for Dread. But, like, how can we take this season and put it into different locations?

And then, of course, make it affordable, you know? Yeah, because I think all of us had ideas of we could have spent half a million dollars on that without question, like super quick if we wanted to. No. If we had the money, we could have spent. I think also, too, what's fun about the show is that it's an opportunity to tell a story, but the people who are in the story don't know the story they're a part of as it unfolds for them. And I think what we wanted to do, as Ivan I were talking about it, as I said,

Ivan, you know, it's one thing for you to tell them the story. It's another thing for them to find it hidden in a booklet. Or them to actually lift the couch up and look underneath it and find the piece? Or bust through a fucking wall and find a whole other set. I was like, no, don't do that. That like, Denise is probably like,

that's a lot of money. Don't bust the wall. And then I was like, oh, no, obviously that was supposed to happen. We were so proud of that moment because I legitimately remember being in the creative room and that and being like, is that something we can do? And I remember looking at me like, can I have them go through the wall?

because I want them to go through the wall. And Brad's like, no, it should be pretty easy. And then we made it. It worked. The hardest part was actually keeping them from finding that set. Yes. Why we were shooting. But I talked to the cast, and you can ask them afterwards,

but nobody knew. Nobody had any idea. And we hit it very well. So that it had to get into it. And we'll get into this moment earlier. But I remember Erica Ishi, who was holding the sledgehammer. Yes. Very proudly.

Very proudly. Very proudly holding that sledgehammer. She was built to hold that sledgehammer. And I remember them in the sledgehammer. the episode, because again, Adam brings up a great point. Like a lot of shows, a lot of RPG shows, or a lot of, like, just theater shows,

they all have lines that they have to memorize. All of this is happening on the fly. And I remember her putting her hand against the wall, and I'm describing this hollow sensation to them as they're going into, and I'm like, I'm giving them the information they need in order to make a choice. And they're going into it, and she's tapping on the wall.

And I remember Erica looking at me being kind of like, can I? Can I do this? Yeah. Oh, it seemed like a liability from the minute I saw it. But no, Brad made it perfect. Absolutely. And I didn't even have the opportunity. I didn't know how they, how, because I investigated the room just to check it a few times.

But the green light pursing through the wall as they started to break it was the most satisfying thing to see on that set. Yeah. And as a producer, Denise, I mean, you're being given secrets. just objects and how where do you come in where it's like yes we can do that no again like you just said no that's too expensive like how do you wrangle the madness that is madness it is a constant struggle as a producer to be quite honest i mean you have two minds like adam and ivan's put together in one show and what you really always want your creatives to do is to reach for the stars because it's easier to pull back than add things.

And then you go within the budget and you talk about what is feasible, what is safe, and you just work with it because in the end, all you want is an excellent product. So you try to make it happen, you really do. And I come from like a more indie background,

so I actually stepped in and ran wardrobe and things like that because... That's right. I didn't know that literally until today, that you were in charge of wardrobe. Yeah, I mean, I got... Speaking of hyphen-its, that's too crazy job.

I got some really great direction from Adam, and then I just went out and I actually shopped and tried to put what I could together very much, as much in line as I could with what he wanted to see with the time we had, too, because it actually ended up, you guys didn't have very long for the first season, like to get it all done.

And through all the planning and the story building, we actually ended up with a pretty short amount of time to put it all together too. So since I come from that indie background, I am really willing to jump in and take care of those things so that we can make it all happen. You save, you know, what money you can there by picking up different jobs.

I have a story about Denise hanging out with me, me at the men's warehouse trying to pick out the madness suits. And which I got there early because we're like, okay, we need to find this whatever I'm going to wear for the show. And I'm picking everything out and putting it together. I'm like,

Denise, this looks is really good. Let's do this. It costs this much. And she's like, and of course, at the same time my toddler is running around causing hell inside of the men's warehouse all at the same time. and I think we spent like an hour and a half there trying to figure it out. Yeah, because of course I am like,

look, can we do it cheaper? That's really kind of the first question that pops out as a producer. You're like, yeah, this is great. Can we get it cheaper? Or cheaply. And we did. We went through a bunch of stuff,

but it was such a star. I mean, he, I was like, damn it, Ivan's been there for half an hour. This is bad news. He's going to find something. really good and I'm going to have to tell him now. Which we, it was, he's a character. It was such a star piece that we really had to work it out and make it happen.

Right. I mean, I was trying to goodwill it, but in the end. Oh, we tried. And we did. And we went to a lot of different thrift stores to see if we could find, like, discount anything that would make it work. And it is, there is a chance that that always works, but we were just in a position where it didn't work the,

time around because I have I have I've had a lot of nice looking suits that I've gotten at Goodwill but that one just wasn't a little flying I mean just you you found the perfect one you really did right I agree I got a lot of a lot of screen time too the next question I want to ask you guys is this this entire series is based on mystery and solving it and so there are secrets and mysteries that all four of you knew you had to know ahead of time how did you keep it from the actors, one, I mean, that room for one, and then two, did anything unexpected happen where you had to pivot on the day? Yeah, back to the wall. Sure, I'd love to talk about the wall. It was pre-scored and set up to break through a certain way and to come down into the tiles and you can't tell them

you can break through this wall. We can't say, okay, do this and, you know, pre-game them on it. So, like, they started breaking through it, and then they started trying to go through it a little early. where they were just kind of trying to pounce off on drywall. And so me in the back, I was just like, no, no, no, no. Oh, with their hand? They're already through the wall at this point. It's like, take it down for it. Right, yeah, because they had, because they were,

because there is a very explicit frame, a reinforced frame that they could bust through. And so there was a time in which they're hitting it, and they're starting to, like, stray over towards the right outside of the frame. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had to say, hey, okay, guys. And then I think at one point two, there was a same. issue in which they had busted through and they were trying to come out through it early, but there wasn't a strong enough Yeah, the foothold. I was like, oh, so when I think it was Liam was the first one through, we had to be like, Liam.

Oh, oh, I remember in the freaking show his arms go up on the other side of the wall as if he's going to do a pull up and like launch himself into the room. What an idiot. Like I remember watching that like what did he think he's doing? But we had to kind of, after the, like, secret had been revealed, we had to kind of tell him where the parameters of the frames were so that he could get through it. We adjusted for safety. Number one concern. So, and there was a lot, and there was a lot of, like,

Marisha was in the cast, and she is the creative director of Geekin Sundry, and she was very influential in dread, right? Yes, she sure was. Did she try to sneak in on those meetings? Well, I don't think. You can ask her when she comes out here. But that was actually the toughest part because I really enjoyed having Marisha's voice during Dread and not having her for madness and basically having to lock her in a kennel and say no for the entire season.

It was a little tough. But at the same time, it was very satisfying to kind of see what she came up with. And she still had really strong opinions about like the themes that she wanted to explore in madness. and we came to the right conclusions together, and it was very lovely because we actually had a little bit, and I hope she doesn't mind I'm saying this while she's not in the room. I'm sure she's around somewhere. But it's like we originally had a little bit of a clash of having it be set in the 1930s.

Like not just a 1930s apartment, but like actually have it take place in the 1930s. I kind of, that would be cool. Yeah. I mean, that does sound really cool. A little expensive. The secret, though, of the show is that we don't actually take the actors and put them in an arena that they don't personally know. The success of it is because the cast knows what the 90s is. They lived in it for part of their life.

And as a result, they aren't, like, faux acting where they're like, oh, in the 30s, how would I be in the 30s? They don't know how they'd be in the 30s because they never lived there. Sure. And now it gets into this larping effect. versus this is just my own wheelhouse. I'm not in inventing an imaginary era. I'm living in my own experiences. And with the time frame that we had,

having them, because a lot of people who usually do that kind of period acting, they have six months to research. We didn't have that time. Right, right. And so having them have to not have a filter to go through would add milliseconds of reaction time, which for me is extremely important

when you're reacting on set. Like having them go from the gut and feel something versus having to have to put that through a 1930s filter was so incredibly important. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Adam, I remember from Dredd that you had a key part in what we saw on the camera.

Obviously, that's your job. But you would do maybe five words of coaching in even like, okay, we're resetting this up. You feel like this, isn't that great? And your eyes light up, and I can't believe you sustain it all day, but what goes in your mind when you're like, oh, this is what we need to show the audience, this moment. How do you know in the moment what that is?

Because, again, it's all improvised. You didn't really prep that this confusion and this character had this, you know, backstory that, oh, it ties in perfectly right here. I think it comes from two parts. One is that Ivan and I have gone through the story in intimate detail of where it's going to go and what we want to craft with it. And then, you know, I'm watching it through all six of the cameras at the same time, you know, and as you're seeing it, you're writing the, you're writing the TV show in your mind, right? And so as a character completes an arc or a statement, you're mapping the show kind of, because you already had the box built, you knew where it was going, and then now you're painting it as you guys begin to talk, the talent began to talk, and as Ivan brings up things and he pushes them places.

And so I feel like that that aspect of it is comes from being fully prepared in it and then fully present when it's going on, right? So you're already editing it in your head as it's going. That's right. It's got to be because I got to see, okay, this is the story. And lots of times, Ivan and I, Powell, in between the episodes and sometimes during the episode, how can we shape it a direction, right? Like it's going somewhere, but we need it to shape and curve or we need to. need a climax to bump up. And Ivan's very good about sensing that real time

when, oh, something is building. Let me escalate it. So that way the show can move like television versus just like people playing a game. Right. OK. Awesome. That makes a lot of sense.

On that note, I also had, like, what are the breaks like? Because I remember breaks being kind of a weird part of the day, where you knew, everyone knew that the episode was broken, but we all were continuing to shoot throughout the day. And you can see at the beginning of at least the first four episodes, a little bit of nervous energy where everyone had done a little bit of a reset, like, okay, we're back and things aren't as bad as we left them off. And then immediately they get like, yeah, they get sledgehammered in the head.

Yeah, and actually pacing on this one on madness was a little more challenging than it was on dread. Dread because it was only one day. Like it was very clear where the climax. of each episode was. Madness, there was a couple of times in which we could have interpreted a break and then Adam and I thankfully like he had mentioned were we're both usually pretty in sync about wins how pacing is going through the game but we knew on this one I think it was between episodes four or five and six it was like okay well there's a couple places that this could go at so let's

just write it and see what happens and it was it was literally the only time in the series in which I felt like we'll fix it in post you know we'll see where it feels good at in order to kind of find out where the place it needs to be you know and then and then because of that process like this series didn't start out as eight episodes it became that once I once I sat down I looked and I was going over the edits and I was going through the cut and I was like actually we have this odd double climax in episode one I can make two episodes out of this actually. And because I'm trying to like,

I'm essentially finding the point of climax and going backwards until I hit the one right before it. And so I think that that's part of the magic of the show, is it writes itself in front of you. And when we were, and so to Adam's point, we were literally madness when we were first shooting it, the prologue and the first, like, the, what I call the rooftop party scene,

was supposed to be the first episode? Like, were there, Where they were alone, remember, they had their single adventures, and then they got together on the roof. The single adventures and the roof was going to be the one. It was going to be the first episode originally. Like, just to kind of, like, get the prologue through and then start them off to kind of get into it.

But we got so much with the prologue, and there was such a great arc that happened. It was nice having it separate. Yeah, it was very nice having it separate, and we were obviously delighted that we could, we had enough that we could make it like a clean break to make that prolog, give it, like, the, full punch of being able to deliver all of that in a single episode.

That's amazing. Brad, as a production designer, your windows, your design for the windows, made it onto the shirt. Congratulations. The door for the door windows. Oh, the door, I'm sorry, yes, the door. So I, that's so effing cool. I'm pretty stoked on that.

Yeah, that's really cool. This, I don't know if any of you see this design anyway. Yeah, there I go. The door design is now the shirt, the insignia for the actual. show. If you're going through a rewatch, are there any Easter eggs or other things that you, you know, put a certain Brad touch on that we should look out for? Oh, in the show? Yeah. That set you designed? There, like Easter eggs. I think I slid a couple little pieces of stuff I put into like all shows. Like at random bits of junk, I will always put my old cat's collar

in the show. So if I have a bunch of stuff in a garage. Is the cat alive? No, he died last year. It was when we were on another show. I'm sorry. Yeah, I usually will slide that in every now and then. Or just like. That is so crazy.

I highly approve. Or sweet. It's sweet. Okay. Or just like little random fun phrases if there's a lot of like random writing and stuff. I think I slid a few of those into the architect's room. I did. I did slide that into some dust on a table.

What is that? What is that? What did you slide into the dust on the table? skull guy. If you ever watch Thrashtopia, over by her command center, there's a little skull mohockey guy. And I split that into some dust in there. I like dropping little Easter eggs if I can, but usually I didn't slide too many in this one because some of them are too obvious. I do remember you, when you built Emmett's bathroom, there was a lot of elements in there.

Like, I remember you having to find, you and Denise having to find that freaking claw tub. That thing weighs a ton. Like so much, we gave it to the studio, didn't we? Yes. Thank you, Craigslist. Wow. Because I didn't think I was going to be able to find that. And it was, because it's such a specific look, cloth-foot tubs. Yeah, oh my gosh.

It was, yeah, it was super heavy. But yes, I'm. But it needed that, you know, it needed that. So that when our actress, when she came out of the bathtub and then when Liam was lying in it, it had that old, heavy, dusty, rugged, messy weight to it. so thank you for doing that by the way oh you're very welcome you know it's the architect's bathroom

is the only addition to the thing in which MAM the original architect of the studio that was the only addition that was ever made because he wanted to hide the architect's room that's the whole point of building the false wall so being able to make that articulate bathroom

it had to be dated and more importantly he would not want to do anything to change it that's what's the most important to be no renovations to that because never want to touch and never want to even insinuate that there's anything on the other side of that wall.

Another good find from D is she's actually the one that found the fuses. Oh! That was a hunt. And then D scored those pretty hard and I was like, yes, those are perfect. And that poor amulet.

Yeah. Oh, that thing was too nice of smash. So upset. I was like, oh my God, I even know why. Yeah, y'all are the smashing show. It was an antique. It was a literal antique. Thank you, eBay.

Was it from the 70s or the 60s? You know what? I'm not sure what ticket it was from, but it was definitely labeled antique. And it was just this beautiful, and we were going to try to work it into the story, but we weren't able to. It actually opened up.

It was like a little box almost. So the beautiful part was the cover, and we were going to try and get it, you know. We were going to put a note into it somewhere, but the back kept falling off. And there was no way to be able to make. it so that it could be organic to be able to find a discovery on it because the back just kept popping off so easily. Things you don't know.

Well, one last question before we bring out the actors who got to play in your world. Whose effed up idea was it for Djanga Tower number two? Okay. Of course. Sorry. When he brought that up, he should have had a monocle just twisting a mustache. He was like, we're going to do this. And then we're going to cut some into thirds.

It started actually, the original vision was it just went like this at an angle. It was just a leaning tower of pieces of. I have to build those things, man. The build was difficult. And I actually had so many other terrible plans for that tower. I wanted to put, I wanted to originally say, hey, Brad, can you put blood packets inside of it? Yes, I can. So that when you pulled it and it would drip blood.

Or can we put a, this is an idea that never made it, just because. in the post situation, it's terrible. I wanted to put a tiny, tiny speaker that was hollowed out in one of the blocks. So in one of the blocks, we would hollow it out, we'd put a speaker into it,

and we'd have it in loop just sing tongues over and over again. So that when they would lean in to pull, but it's so bad for TV. It doesn't make any sense because other ones, because sync issues are terrible, and it doesn't make sense.

It's great for an experiential like putting it on the table with your friends, but as a, as a show, it just doesn't work. But I was like, Adam, let me do it. It can't just be fun for them. The one would have been fun. Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much, you guys.

And thank you once again to you folks in our community. You have written, you have drawn, and we have listened and seen. You have come up with art tattoos, crochet, much, much more, and we have seen them all on Twitter. We're going to show a fan sizzle reel of all of the things that we have gleamed from you guys. And before we go to it, I do want to remind you that not,

apologies if we missed you. Apologies if we didn't quite get to you. If you once again want us to see it, we all will look at it. We love it so much. So please feel free to retweet it and include the hashtags, sagas of sundry and hashtag madness.

and for bonus getting seen, tag at Joint Team Alpha. So again, hashtag Sagas of Sundry, hashtag Madness, and at Joint Team Alpha. With that said, Ivan wants to say something to. Throwback just real quick to all of your amazing Darby cosplay from Dread. Oh, yes. Just saying, we see you. Yes. We know it's amazing.

It really, really is. This show is not about me, but I'm happy to have a little. little bit of talking about me a little bit. So that's fine. So without further ado, here's your fan, a sizzle reel of art. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg,

a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming, Plus, that signature, wait, for this price? Moment. Old Navy's drapy denim wide leg.

The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders, an army scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventure. at its most cruel.

Your torch ticks down in real time, and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules-light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s, and man, it is so good to be back.

Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the Shadow Dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on YouTube.com slash the Glass Cannon with the podcast version dropping the next. day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. Once again so much I wish you I wish you could have heard the squeals of delight literal screams and screeches. It was a barnyard. Well yeah, there's an example. Because all of us are here now from the entire Sawagasy Sunday

Season 2, Madness. And y'all look good. Without further ado, introduce who we're meeting tonight. So first off, we have Marisha Ray playing Abigail, aka Kathy. Liam O'Brien, who plays Emmett, Markham. Hello. And Erica Ishii, who plays Selina Tchiaf-Tum-Sukiyama. Tsukiyama.

Sugiyama. We just have a debate about spelling us that between all the articles and everything else, but yeah. And Xander, Generey, who plays Fenley. And I actually only met him for the first time tonight. And before I actually say his name, I do want to say that I know all of these lovely people, and they are so charming and sweet and happy in real life. And they play such dark, dark, dark characters

that I just thought that Jeremy might just be a dark person. Just deep down in his soul. So, yes, this is Jeremy Walker. Yeah, the main thing I want to know is how did you all come together and get into this project, all five of you. Yeah, you came into it knowing about Saga the Century Dread already, right? Most of you? And then, so someone said you for madness. So Ivan sat me down and said he might have concerns?

Because he was like, look, I don't want to promise anything, but I might have it. Tell me I'm wrong. And you're right. You were completely right to you because I'm just like on, on camera for all my hosting in Geekin Sundry. I'm just really bubbly and happy. And they were really concerned that I wouldn't be able to do horror. And we needed you to be dark. Yeah.

That I couldn't go dark. And like I said, all the time I needed you to make the hard choice. And I just wanted you to have the opportunity to be able to say, yes, I can make the hard choice. And you did. And honestly, your name got, your, like, your name was brought up several times, and it was one of those where it was like, oh, man, oh, it'd be great. Can't you do it? Can she do it? Can she do it?

And we just decided to be like, I'm going to cuss. So just heads up. Oh, please. Fuck it, let's do it. Let's get Erica in here. Let's see what she can do. My flexibility. And she killed it.

And she killed it. But you took the wrist. You killed it. You were definitely the, wild card you're like the underdog who ended up becoming one of my favorites of the series so yeah so the key word in this is take risks because you never know what's going to happen because you might get erika issue well said well said well i think i can talk a little bit about that too because i knew ivan from our stints on reality tv from king of the nerds um but we had

we'd done tabletop stuff together and i do another show called dungeon master i here. And so I think you had seen kind of what I can do in a role play scenario and with LARPing, but I'm just so grateful that you were able to pull me in for this because this was unlike anything I've ever done before. And, yeah. And Zander, to be completely fair, I, I completely depended on you to be able to carry the story in a role-playing way. Because you're so, you're so, so good at reading pacing. And the only other person who really did that in a significant way to where I could see it outside of the storyteller was Mercer. You know, Mercer on Dread 1, 100% was great about reading the pacing

and telling the story, and you 100, and I knew that with you. I was like, if anyone's going to carry the story, it's going to be Xander. Multiple RPGs that I've played with Zander. In each case, his character is the one that's like sort of the linchpin that's, like, moving the story. He's going to be the center of attention. Which is the point of words, that's why I wanted you to start. And that's why I wanted you to host the rooftop party. Swaray.

It's a swaray. I'm just kidding. The rooftop extravaganza. Thank you. I feel like you guys were like the shoe-ins, like... Yeah, I feel like you guys were like the... I mean, we know them.

Duh, like the tiny, like the tiny project, Critt up, ma... Roll me... Roll me hard, roll me hard, roll it important... Or crit roll. Important. Dice, yeah. Yeah.

Well, I kind of reached a point halfway through, and I was being kind of typical, non-decisive Marisha, and Ivan was like, do you want to be in the series, or do you want to, like, help me with the story? You're very passionate about H.B. Lovecrafts, and the way you see this, what do you want? And I was like,

you decide for me. I did, yeah, I was like, ah, because I was torn, because I was like, I care, but I want to be in it, but I don't know. I was like, you do it. You make the choice. So then you decided for me, which meant after a certain point, I helped in production, especially like logistically for a while and kind of thematically. And then there was a certain point where I had to completely just attach and let it go.

I cut you off so hard. Yeah, you did. Yeah. I can quit any time. And Liam came to us not because of any of us. Like, I love you. You're one of my best friends, but I did not suggest you. It was Adam. It was Adam Lossie.

I had your back. Liam and I did a movie together. We have some street history here. I wasn't going to let him go down. What was the movie? Can you talk about it? It was called Independence Day. It was called the Phoenix Incident.

And we did some running from aliens in the desert. I didn't know you did Phoenix Incident with Keith. That is correct. Oh, my gosh. It's been a lot of time in the desert. We did. Yeah. Most of us came back alive.

Yes, that was part of our first meetings over there. Yep. And to be honest, it's like we knew we were doing a Lovecraftian, dark, psychological horror RPG, and I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, Liam, are you available? I'm a very happy person. Said no one ever. The building is laughing out of acknowledging right now.

Well, I'll credit Adam for me being a part of the show because, as many of you know, this was like my intro in RPG, which was like, what an intro in RPG, thanks to this guy. And, you know, Adam and I worked together on Escape the Night, season one. What's season one, right? Yeah, season one. And it was just an incredible experience. He's such a great director, and it was like, he brought me on, and we tested one other show, and Ivan was GM.

And he's like, listen, this is, I think, the one that's going to be good for you. He's like, I was like, well, I don't really know this world, really, you know, but he's like, you're an actor. Just act, you know? It's like being in a play for 12 to 15 hours straight. I was like, that sounds pretty awesome. Yeah, why not do it? And man. And you know that the part.

He did. See, what I loved about Jeremy that he brought to the table was that I wanted this sort of charismatic character to come into play who had this charm and wit and kind of a ladies man energy to the table that we didn't have in season one, right? What's up, Eddie? I also thought you were going to say that we don't have a geek and sundry. Well, you do now. That's also true. that is also true. Yes, that is also true.

And so I wanted that kind of charisma. He just had that so much. And I was like, Jeremy, how can I convince you to try this thing and get you in? And so thank you, Jeremy. Hey, thank you. And when Adam brought him to go meet with Jeremy, it was very clear, even from the first minute that I was talking to, he got it. You know, because I met a lot of people who were, like, were actors. And you say, you're like, oh, I'm an actor, this is easy for me.

It's not. You know, these kind of choices don't always come naturally, and more importantly, they don't always feel like you don't understand that this is an organic choice that's being made and the trials and tribulations that this show can put you through, and you were very clearly ready to go, you know? Well, I appreciate that. I mean, it was, I'm so happy to have done it and just made this connection with all of you in this community and it's just been incredible.

And even as an acting experience, you know, like the creation of Jude and just going through and writing like this intense bio of his life and all these things. And it was like, and then when we're out there and in it, it's just like, it just sort of flew through me, you know. And you and I spoke after Adam and I spoke after, I guess it was like after episode three or something aired or right before it aired. And he was like, trust me, dude. Like, I know you don't remember anything that happened,

but like, it was awesome. I'm like, I don't know, but I can't sleep. I remember you telling me stories about rapping from the show and having to decompress afterwards and having it be like a 48-hour process. It was madness. We all went through our process of that. Is that a separate question?

Because we have things to say about that. Yes, it definitely is. And we can get into that right now, actually. my experience with madness, I hadn't, yeah, I knew that they were shooting and I work in this building and Erica just runs up to me and gives me a hug and it's like, it's like, oh, Amy! And I'm like, while I am grateful for this like overpouring emotion, what is going on? And it was this emotion of you've been through the trenches, you have been through the trenches, you know what it's like. And that was one of the most important hugs of my life

where it was like, I survived. And I'm like, yes, yes, you sure did, Erica. You really made it. I just got like a psychologist on salary for what Ivan does to people. Once I figured out what it was, yes. But yes, what was the experience in the aftermath? I know you guys were entrenched in it for a couple of days.

So that's even more intense than just one day. And plus they're in it before that, like Jeremy was saying, building up to the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Erica, you said you have things to say. Okay. I'm doing. Oh, my God.

So I, honestly, it was like I, we were in it for two days. And it was such an intense experience and I loved it. But afterwards, I just, I was so in this crazy head space. And, like, so I used music. I made playlists. I talked about that on my playlist. The article came out. So I made like a mixtape for Emmett.

And I would wake up at night like screaming. And like, and wait, wait, what? I was just, wait. This was after, after madness, I would wake up screaming. And one night, one night two days after, two days afterwards, I woke up and I heard Ivan's voice whispering to me from the closet, Bakerball. Oh, God.

I swear to God. I'm now the thing of nightmares. I've made it in life. It's perfect. You really were like a haunted ghost child for the week after the show, too. Every time I saw you're like, oh. Oh.

And with Selena, though, you know, I felt like, because you were so in her, like, more so than, because she's hearing those voices, like, so much. And you were like, you know, I can't remember. I can't repeat what you were saying, because it was just, like, it was amazing. Plus, like, we kind of all took a little bit of a break from the characters, and you were in the green room, like,

constantly listening to the playlist and doing push-ups and stuff like that, and staying in it more, I think, than some of us may have. Wait, is that true? During the breaks, you would stick around? Yeah. Well, she's doing shit-ups. Oh, dude, she took it on, like, a, like, deep meta, like, method-level, man. So, like, sometimes, like, we would all, like, hang out and stuff, but if like I, and that was like nice, but then like, okay, most of the time I would go to the green room alone and I'd do like planks and sit up some pushups.

And I'd listen to this one song over and over and over on a loop. What is that song? It's the Punch Brothers cover of Another New World, which is, it's the song, and I put out of my playlist, and it's about this explorer, this brilliant explorer who's going to go find a new world in the Arctic. and like the only person and thing that he's ever loved in his life is his ship, the Annabelle Lee. And like they go up there and disaster befalls. And eventually he's the only one left and he has to like burn the ship. And it's like he's burning this person alive. And he like goes kind of insane.

And so I was just listening to this over and over again doing sit-ups and push-ups in the dressing room. So. Oh, wow. No wonder you didn't sleep. I did. Yeah. And like I was like, you know, making sure to like take care of myself and everything. because like self-care is important,

but also saying in your head is like that. I did, I did. You stayed in your head. Yeah. You were in your head. You know? And then I was in your head sometimes too. I feel bad because like our decision,

I mean, and you really do. Ivan has talked several times and we've talked a lot about DM after care and just self-care kind of going through these experiences because you really do, you know, immerse yourself and put yourself in the shoes. And I mean, almost like selfishly, we were like, Selena has to be the one.

Spoiler, if you're watching this, you've watched it, right? But we're like, Celina has to be the one to go and keep going, because she is the only one

who can get us out. But then, like, you don't think about that in a selfish way because we're like, well, you go first, but then you were the only one

left with, like, very real survivor's guilt? I 100% had survivor's guilt. And I thought about, like, Sander, I was talking, and like,

even like, after the episode, where Zander's character dies, I was just like, oh my God, like I feel this terrible survivor's guilt, like, and my character would have felt so terrible. And Zander, speak a little bit about what you talked to me when you were watching the monitors after Fenley died. Oh, well, that's the thing is like,

I got to stay in, like, the video village and got to see it happening, and you don't realize, like, how beautifully shot this whole thing is. And even, like, I talk about this with other people that do, like, RPGs, like, everybody, has their stories from their games, and it's kind of like sharing your dreams. Like you don't really get it,

and it's like, I don't wanna hear about your game, you had to be there. But with this, it's such a gift. Yeah. With this though, it's such a gift that we get to relive what actually happened in the game in an engaging and beautiful way that we get to share that with other people like,

no, like I died and I got flung into the stars because I opened a stupid door. And people are like, oh, I know. I saw it. Liam, did the show have any lasting after effects for you? Yeah, I mean, I haven't asked me just to come play Jenga. So much happened in two days that I never, I really, like, I know, I watched, I binge the entire first season of sagas, and it still didn't really prepare me for it.

I mean, it was intense. It was a great show, but I was like, okay, well, I'll go and play. And it was, it was, it was intense. And I went home in the first night and then my wife at home was like, what's the matter with you? I was like, oh, I don't jenga. You got like the surprise of the show because none of us knew there was another cast member there. Oh yeah, you got a little scene partner. Yeah, yeah.

And did you know that was happening? No, and I should mention that the hour before we shot that scene, was I first up? You were first up. You were not first up. Second or third? You were last. Oh, was I? You were last because we still had to put Alejandro through makeup.

Yeah. By the way, on the top of your head, Alejandro Sanude... Sehudo. Yeah, that's fantastic actress. You can find her on Twitter. Yes, Alejandro Sehudo. Another Adam find, by the way, which I found that later

that she played Game the Game with us, but oh my God. And I gave, that was the only part of the actual series that was scripted. So I wrote her monologue. For her, you know, originally. Yeah, for her. Yeah. I mean, are you kidding me?

Liam's prologue. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah, that's... The hour beforehand, too, Ivan came up to me at least three times. I was like, listen, are you okay if things get raw and real? And I thought, are you asking, is it okay if Xander grabs me by the lapels and shakes

me? Yeah, I've done... Yeah, that's fine, that's fine. Whatever you want to do. But you kept coming back and asking, and kept saying, all right, get in that room, shut the door. So actors, stay in your rooms? because they were escorting the corpse back and forth, I assume. Oh, my gosh. The corpse. That, yeah, that was a brilliant, very, very,

when I saw it, I was like, wait, wait, what's happening? Like, he could, what, who is, ah? Part of my head was going, why did you do this to me? Why did you do this to me? Why did you, but the other half was just going, weh. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. You know what is so, there's so much to love

in playing a game like this, whether it's on the show or in your house, with any of these kinds of games, it almost feels like a ritualized version of theater. It comes with, like, traditions and rituals that you have to do along with it, but it's providing the same thing, which is just a way for all of us to plug into story,

and story is so important to human existence. It has been for thousands and thousands of years, far beyond human, like, recorded human history. We'd say around the fire all the time, but it's true, and that's what turned into Aristotle, and theater and Euripides and then you know all the way up to present we want story it helps us try to cope with the highs and lows of human existence before we had flickering lights on a TV we had flickering lights by the fire

and we would tell stories by that fire to help try to understand our existence so and this was like mainlining that so thanks by the yes absolutely Jeremy we haven't heard from you yet what it was the prep and the aftermath for you with this crazy Well, the prep was, you know, I binge Dread as well and was like, okay, this is, whoa, what am I getting myself into? You know, and like I was saying earlier, you know, it was not knowing this and not really, you know, growing up and playing RPGs and doing anything like this. You know, it was like, well, I have to just draw from what I know, which is years of acting, you know. and it was just the character creation was really fun

because it was like hey you know it's like whatever you really want him to be this is the idea but you know you can sort of make him be whatever and that was like you know I was sitting there one day I was like wigging out on Jude and and I text I don't know if I was it I texted me yeah I tell I feel and it was coined in such an actor way it was like I feel like

Jude's a smoker. Yeah. I would... Is this... Is it okay? Like, you were asking for permission, basically, but you're doing it in the way that, like, an actor would normally

try to find this type of thing, which, by the way, is totally fine. The only thing we had to clear was to make sure, hey, can we have fire on set for you to light the cigarette? How do... How do you...

Like... Like, like shit. But whatever. But that text was beautiful because you basically... you were asking permission for something that in my mind you didn't need to ask permission for, you know, as far as a character goes. Okay, cool. Yeah. And I had already went out and bought clove cigarettes, by the way, like before I even asked permission. Because I was like, well, even if I can't do it, I'm just going to, as I'm prepping the character.

You know, that cigarette actually had the same effect for me as Liam's friend did. Sam, Sam, the woman in the tub. but because I was like, what? What's he doing? He's lighting a cigarette. Like, it's just one of those, I mean, it's totally 90s, but it's just something you don't see anymore on TV and film. And then it's definitely like the way I'm also thinking,

like, from a producer standpoint, like, you know, get fire on the set or whatever, but it was so like, it was one of those like, oh, wow, and it gave you such swagger that I'm so happy you made that choice. Yeah, I mean, thank you, you know, for allowing me to it. They were used really well, like punctuation. in well-written fiction.

Yeah. A certain woman is. Oh, yeah. Sorry. I don't need to be so bossy, guys. I also produced this show. Yeah. Drop from.

Pass the mic. Marisha, the wig. Who's, who's, you transformed. Like, it was one of those things I was like, wait, who is this? There was much discussion about this wig. Oh, my God. We went back and forth.

I said, yes, tell me. Tell me. Go, go, you save. Yeah, because there's a, once again, once again, it was like another I had like such this this whole show was such a learning curve for me in terms of not only a whole kind of new theater that we kind of sort of invented it kind of TDRPG theatrical drama reality role playing game what Ivan just said yeah and then I also had to

trust and and let go and know that it was going to be okay and then I also like I love Lovecraft in that lore so much, so I had strong feelings. So there were times that I'm like hearing whispers through other people, I'd be like, Ivan, what are you doing? What is this? 90s?

Why does Erica look like Gwynne Stefani? What is happening? And I was like, I don't know. That was not an accident. Yeah. And it was like, trust. And then we kind of had this actress thing, but we were like, kind of part of the transformation was

we were like the geek and sundry audience knows Marisha, me. So what can we do and give them something totally different? So we were all kind of on board with like, let's do something that no one will expect. Yeah, I mean, and I knew that too. It's like, okay, and I wanted, of course, it to come from you because all character creation should come from what you're interested in doing.

So when you made this choice of like, I really, like, I feel like Abigail's really, she's dark and she's got some of these deep-seated kind of like anger issues inside of it. And when you talked about the wig, I was like, yes, okay, let's let's take it in a whole new direction. And I remember you explicitly were talking about, you know, Kileth is very bubbly. She's the glue that brings people together. Keyleth. Yeah. Well, I know you said Kee-Lith. You are referencing Kieleth.

Because I said, you explicitly said, Key Lith is very bubbly and she's the glue that brings things together. I want to do something totally different. I want to go into the opposite direction. I'm like, okay, what is that direction? And then we came into it. And then we kind of let you discover who Abigail was going to be. She's a weird cross-section, though,

because we wanted, we decided that her backstory was going to be this girl kind of trying to come to Los Angeles from Middle America town, nothing I can relate to and try to make it, but also someone who was fabulous but also gritty and dark and gotthy and gave zero fucks.

So it was like, where is that cross-section between this is who I am and who I want to be, but also fuck all of y'all if you don't like it. Badass and vulnerable. I think is how I do. Weird. And just so people

know about the story of the wig, that wig that you were on set, you got like the night before. Yes. Yeah. Well, like, shorter one. And then they were like, no, we don't like it. It's two Catherine's Data Jones is what you said. I need to make you look amazing.

That's what I said. I need you to look amazing for this. And I need you to feel two things, both violent and vulnerable. Yeah. And I will get you there. Adam and I, we had a, we had. had a private powwow, we're like, what do you think about the wig?

Because you sent us photos, and you sent us photos, and we looked at it together, like, oh. Oh my God. I know, okay. I just, I love wigs so much. Like, I have like 60 at home, and, and you have wig face, my friend. And the glory. And the whole, and I mean, not to mention, it was the perfect wig for the character.

So whatever went down, it was the right decision. Those two inches made all the difference in the world. It was huge just how like two inches of length made difference between Catherine Zeta Jones in Chicago. Sure. And like Adelao. Yes, perfect. You know? I didn't feel like I was hanging out with you, you know, behind the scenes.

It was, I would have to remind myself. The makeup, there were two different makeup artists between day one and day two. And on the second day, the makeup artist from the first day was showing pictures of, you know, Marisha in costume to the second girl. And the girl was like, oh, so you want me to make this girl look like this one? girl and they're like they're the same person they're the same person yeah they thought they pulled it off of like Instagram

was like a makeup tutorial and I was like oh no no that's that's me that was me yesterday and they were like what that was fun well I I want to actually now talk about a person who can't be here to my chagrin because I really wanted him to be here and you guys don't even know

that he did try so hard to get here and between like between flights getting delayed and gigs and everything He just couldn't. And that man is Darren DePaul. And he was always meant to host this with me and couldn't, ah, just so many things, couldn't make it happen.

But he, I think, is an instrumental part to the entire series. For those of you who don't know, he plays Mr. Wren, Darren DePaul. So I do want to, on top of, yeah, with Alejandra's, I want to give him a round of applause too. And then. I deserve it. Definitely deserves it. And then maybe talk to Adam and Ivan about the creation

of Mr. Wren and his just maniacal joy, I guess, because it is so dark, and yet you love him. So Adam and I had originally talked about, and Marisha, because this was all during the conception of season one, it's like, Saga Zandri needs its cryptkeeper. It needs the, it needs the Twilight Zone, opening that's going to hold into it that's going to bring all of them together who's that going to be and i think it was uh it was you myself sean and it was eric campbell who were in the room and because

the other problem of this is that okay we need to shoot it like next week because the episodes are coming out in two weeks so we need to put this together quickly and i knew kind of what i wanted i wanted a little bit of a of like that twilight zone appeal i wanted a man in a suit i knew that much but I didn't know who was going to be. And I believe it was Eric Campbell who threw out Darren DePaul. And because this is after us talking about 15 different names.

And I think as soon as we said Darren DePaul, all of us went, duh! Of course! Why could it be anybody else? And it was like that call where I think Marisha said, call him, see if he's available.

And Eric, I remember the look on his face, the poor man. I remember looking at his face and I'm like, oh, God, okay. That was a spot-on Eric Campbell impression. And you could see that look in his face being like, oh, I, oh, God, I hope he's available. And he was. Yes. He was.

And then we didn't even know who Mr. Wren looked like until I had him in the makeup chair. And all I said is that, hey, can you bring a couple of suit options and maybe like a sports jacket? like some kind of smoking jacket, bring that, you know? The smoking jacket, which was just, oh, pardon, because I just imagined him like sniffer of brandy, like telling the story. We had written all of his stuff out, and then it was since he got so excited about it, he took a pass on it as well, too. And then I did another version onto it, and we got him on set, and we discovered this.

And the makeup was putting it together, we were kind of discovering, and I said, okay, I don't want Vincent Price, but I do want this, like, kind of ethereal figure. And he was telling me, it's like, okay, well, we can do this, I can do this glasses, I can do this glasses, I can do a pencil mustache. And I said, stop. Pencil mustache. Yes. Give me John Waters.

Absolutely. And then I think I explicitly told her, I said, do Gomez Adams, but make it about an inch shorter. Well, I think his mouth is actually the most interesting part of his Mr. Ren. Like there are times when I'm like, how is his mouth doing that? And like, I need a gif of him saying madness because it's like, it's like he's got about 20 more muscles in his mouth than any other human that I know. It was perfect. And Sean, Becker and I were on set directing the day with Dread. And I remember having this, and it was like, did I make the right choice?

did a go okay. And then he did his first take of the first one and I peed myself. I didn't actually peeed myself but I nearly peed myself. The delivery was so good. You can be honest. It was so good.

And I was like forever. And then I think Sean, again, Sean, and one of the things I always remember that he said to it, it's like, I look forward to when we can do this. Like we'll know if we can do this moment right now with Mr. Wren again in season two, then I'll be happy.

I remember him saying that. And then I remember feeling that same way when we were shot a madness in your backyard with him. Yeah, we shot all those the Mr. Wren sequences in my backyard. Oh my gosh. Because sometimes you do a production

and you spend all the money on the production. And oh shit, we need a garden to shoot out my backyard, my backyard. Just used my backyard. And sometimes the best location just happens to have like an awesome Cthulhu fountain though. I know. Yes, it's gorgeous.

It worked out okay. Well, to the cast. who are here. I think, for me, the biggest difference between dread and madness is the building blocks of a group of friends going on a camping trip versus a group of strangers who somehow can tell the same story with the same amount of conflict, the same amount of love, and the same amount of arcs. So I want to talk now about relationships between all of you. I know Erica, you and Liam had a special bond, and then you had a terrible bond with Abigail.

And then Jeremy, your relationship with Abby was definitely, like, there was something there clear from the start, and we got a little more down the road, and then Fenley is just sweet. Alone forever. Alone forever, yes, yes. But you were the glue for a long time. You were definitely the glue.

And whether that was by design, but I think it was more just based on who Fenley was, I want to talk about that. So let's start off with Erica and Marisha. Did you guys make a choice to hate each other? No. Oh, not at all. Oh, my God, it's so funny.

Actually, it just comes out in the watch. It's a, I had no idea until we were watching. I was like, ooh, I was mean. No, it's funny. You were a bad actor and it was game on. I, I. Fantastic moment. So Felina's just really, really awkward.

I guess, I mean, just doesn't socialize. She's not socialized. And that's part of it. And then part of that is she intentionally does try to keep a wall up to keep people out. But it's funny because in my original questionnaire, do you remember,

one of the questions for the questionnaires he sent us was have you seen anybody else in the building before? And do you remember what my answer was? Yeah, yeah. No, she was on to it. So Selena's whole part, and because she was the person who's been in the building, besides Jude, she'd been in the person the longest.

And in her mind, she had dirt on everybody. But this is in her mind, you know? In her mind, she knew everybody's secrets because she's Mrs. No-it-all. And it was her way of protecting herself from everyone else's relationships. So, yeah, no, it was. It was like, you saw Jude and Abigail

infragrante delecto. Right, but also do you remember what the answer specifically was? I don't. if I knew anybody else or talked to anybody else. I don't remember that part. It was the cute girl from the mail room. Oh. I'll take it.

Yeah, no, I do remember that because I was like, is there anyone you're interested in? And yeah, and you did. And you were like, yes, I do remember that because you had some connection. We tried to tie those together a little bit because there was an element of Selena being confused about what you're like,

am I attracted? Am I not? And it's weird things, emotions. Do I like her? And so I like, I guess verbally pulled your hair. Wow. That was such a bitch in return. Yes, Marisha, you started.

Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah. I watched that and I was like, this is going to be important for when I interview them. But you started it. Happy does not do well with any type of criticism at all. And it was like,

it was just such an awkward thing to say and it just like came out of Selena's mouth. But like my favorite part about that was like by the end. And like people on Twitter called it out too. She's like she calls Abigail our girl Abby and stuff. Like, yeah, that's our girl. I remember. The first, it was like, or as after, it was like our first break in shooting.

And then Liam comes out. And I remember and he comes out into the, we're like all in the green room. And you're just like, you look at Marisha and you look at me and you're like, you guys are assholes. It was so perfect. Do you realize? Yeah, it was like, you guys. I remember at the end of the first episode when the cops came.

And like, Jude and I are the ones with like, we're like, we're not cool with cops. And then we have good old Finley being our face man. Okay, okay, okay. I wanted to talk about this, though. Okay, so it came out a little bit with his backstory of the abusive ex-boyfriend. And in my mind,

Fenley got out of that situation by reaching out to people and the police had helped him and he went to his shelter and stuff like that. And so he had this good relationship with police. And so he's just like,

they're here to help, oh boy. They yelled to cut and they were like, okay, that's episode one in the can and me and Jeremy were both like, what the fuck, Zander? What the fuck? And he was like, I don't know. Was that the wrong thing?

We're like, no, it just makes things complicated. But I edit with like the face palm, Jeremy's face palm. Liam called it out first. And he's like, I don't think these guys are cops. That's one of my favorite moments. Yeah. Not cops. Yeah, there was a lot.

There was a lot in that whole cop thing that needed to. That was a big fuzzy area of who knows where this is going to go. And I was delighted that we all came. came to the decisions that we came to. Well, you can plan a lot, I think, but in games like this, it's like there's your plan and then what actually happens. I didn't do anything.

Nothing went the way I thought it would in this game. I thought I was going to be, first of all, I thought I was going to be, I'm going to be the mostly well-adjusted guy who falls into hell. He's just a normal guy. And then from my prolog, I just had to go, no, no, oh, I'm crazy actually. I'm actually crazy.

So that's what we're doing instead. And I also said to myself going in, like, everything that's going on with his backstory, he doesn't want to, he's going to be a loner. Whatever happens here, he's going to be a loner. So the whole time things started, whatever was happening, I was like, no, I'm alone. I'm a loner. Oh, hi. Yeah.

It was so shocking. And so much happened in two days of shooting around a Jenga tower. Yes. It was really surprising. That's a beautiful thing about red herrings. you know, is that sometimes when you're building out good horror, you literally build red herrings into storylines to throw people off their guard.

Yeah, one thing, we talked about permissions. You're talking about permissions. So the night, a couple of nights before we shot, I texted Ivan and I said, like, hey, can we go over boundaries with people? because I'm like 100% comfortable with anything like verbal, physical. Like I have no limits. But I want to make sure that everybody else in this improv exercise that we're doing

also feels the same. And so Ivan hooked us up into a group text and said like, hey, this is here for you to talk about boundaries. And I said like, I have nothing. And Zander's like, this is fine. When you specifically said. Yeah. Well, and this is something that we kind of talked about beforehand.

but the 90s was not a good time for gay people, and there were a lot of slurs that can be thrown around and things like that. I wanted people to know that because I am gay myself, that I didn't have a problem with that kind of attitude if any of the characters were homophobic or any of the NPCs were homophobic, which some of them were,

in that it wasn't going to affect me in an adverse way in that I was comfortable with it. And do you remember your response? In probably in classic me fashion, I was like, I'm gay, Bring it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Matt. Like wrote a novel in text. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then we're artists.

Yeah, I think I was just like, I was like, bring it on or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a microphone. I realized I was just looking back at the text thread and I realized Liam never answered.

You didn't. It was the most physically involved with. He's nice. He's right. He's right. Can get consent. Oh no. I was obviously not on this text three.

Yeah. Well, and Jeremy and I, we ended up talking the night before for like a good 30 minutes or so because we knew we were going to be going into this with like a background, with a backstory. So it was like, where do we, where do we lie? What does this even like mean to you? Yeah. And we kind of mutually agree that I was a bad idea. Yeah.

Well, I think we were both bad ideas for each other. A hundred percent. Yeah. But at first. At first. Yeah. And I will say this, though, you know, I'm giving so much love and credit to you, Marisha, because, like, not only did we talk about our characters, but I was like, what do I do?

I don't, you know, I've never done this. Like, you know, you're like, and you were just like, you got it. Like, we didn't even really know each other. We met with, like, two days before. Yeah. And you were like, you just, like, gave me this, this good feeling. feeling of confidence there that like, listen, like, if you just trust your instincts and trust yourself and trust your acting ability, you'll be fine and just like, and trust your other

and the other players. And like, you know, if anything ever happens, like, we got you, you know. And that's how it was. And even though we played as strangers, you know, and I was definitely a stranger to the whole world, you know, it was like I still felt protected in a way. that I could make a choice that I could, you know, do anything and if I was like, what choice do I make here that everybody else that was playing the game

was there and in it and could like carry it along, you know, and our relationship, I really was, it was so cool the way it developed because I didn't really expect it to happen like that either. I saw when it happened too, and I was so proud of the moment.

It was in the escape room when all of your shit was laid out before you. Everything had the escape room. It wasn't an escape room. It was a narrative engine. Thank you, Adam. It was a, because there wasn't any timer on it,

but there's no timer, no crap. It was a, it was a puzzle mechanism, sure. But the point is, I was so incredibly proud of what you brought into that. All of you, like, were basically like, all of you basically just vomited. everything that you were dealing with. That's where the madness, I feel like really, like, shit.

That's where the... It just, like, it just... It went crazy right there. Yeah. It was... Oh, sorry. No, please. As I say, it was funny because I'm so glad, in hindsight,

that you took my talk as encouraging, because on my end, I was thinking, it's, like, like, convincing someone that they're about to just, like, take a cult initiation, but it's going to be okay. That's kind of what it felt like because I'm like, it's going to be weird

and we're all going to like get into it. So, just trust it. And it was like trying to be like, it's going to be a trust fall moment. And we got you, man. Yeah, and that's how it was.

And I've been in enough hippie festivals to say like, all right, that sounds good. Yeah. I can do this. Jumping off of that, I think one of the reasons that these things are so fun to do and such beautiful or crazy moments happen is that it's like the pure, it's, it's like the best moments you have in rehearsal as an actor, because when you're rehearsing, you throw yourself into it, but then you totally break character and go like, oh, you know, between moments and you allow yourself those little like pressure releases and you're like, well, I'm just trying something. But when you're willing to fail in rehearsal, amazing things happen, and that's what's going on in this game is that we're not, we're not, we're not. not making a movie, it's still a game. We're only in character like 80% of the time or 85% of the time. And then you're seeing us laugh at what just happened

because we're saying, well, it's just, it's a game. We're trying something. And there's something about that that gives you more freedom than if you've got a script and there's cameras going and we're making a TV show. You've got to get it right, I've got to get it right. We're allowing ourselves to fuck up. And it allows amazing things to happen.

Denise, do you have to say. On top of that, I just wanted to say, since we're talking about the acting right now. This, we talk about acting, just so everybody knows, this isn't regular acting. This is improv acting, and not everybody can do it. So these guys deserve so many props,

because it's such a combination. It is a new, like, animal that we've created, where it's a game, but it's also improv acting, and there are really fewer people who can do it than cannot. So, I mean, it was, it was so insane because, like, everybody was so deep into their characters that they could, like, react to literally anything as their characters. They could react to, like, somebody coming out of the shower that they had no idea

where it was in there, or, like, solving puzzles together in character. Just, like, every, at every single moment, like, we just were in their heads so much that we knew what to do. And to Liam's point, even if, even if, You're laughing at things, whatever, back and forth, whatever's going on, the fact that you can always go back and then immediately, like, feel things, like, as your characters, immediately.

Like, snap right the F back into it is mind-boggling. Real quick on that, too. I was a little bit nervous because I had had a conversation with Ivan about, like, how are you in, like, scary situations or whatever? And my defense mechanism is sarcastic comments. And so I'm like, if I can make people laugh, it diffuses the tension and then it's not scary anymore. Don't diffuse the tension.

I know. He's like, I want tension. But I found that. Suppress your instincts. This is madness. Yeah, yeah. But playing someone like Fenley,

there was an outlet for that where I could make my sarcastic comments, even if I didn't mean for people to hear them and I muttered them into the mic, they heard them. But it was great. And I knew it was perfect. It was so good.

And it did not kill the tension. Okay, good. Well, we're going to go into some of your questions, but before we do, I do want to ask our actors here. I like to say that every point that you're at, there's a kind of a roadmap that got you there. So what was your acting experience? Obviously, some of you have had tons of it. Obviously, some of you have had role-playing experience, but I'd like to know how you got here really quickly. Marish, if you want to start. Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast for self-improvement and modern leadership.

I'm Mick Hunt, your host, and I'm here to challenge your why and fuel You're because. This is where leaders, entrepreneurs, and go-getters come to level up. Each week, I bring you unfiltered conversations, game-changing strategies, and the kind of motivation that transforms lives and legacies. I've learned from legends like Les Brown, Damon John, and Robert Irvine. And now, I'm bringing their lessons, along with mine, straight to you. From modern leadership tips to creating unstoppable momentum,

this is the podcast that redefines what's possible. Hit play, subscribe, and join the millions who've made Mick Unplug their go-to source for growth and greatness because your next breakthrough is just one episode away. This is Mick Unplug, the voice and face of modern leadership entrepreneur and self-improvement. Let's get started. Look, there are a lot of celebrity interview podcasts out there,

but there's only one happy, sad, confused. I'm Josh Horowitz, and yeah, I'm the host of the show, so I'm a little biased, but truly HappySaid Confused is the place for nerdy and intimate conversations with all your favorite actors and filmmakers. From Andrew Garfield and Scarleth Johansson to Christopher Nolan, casting what ifs, backstage stories, and much more. Listen to Happy Say It Confused on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sure, yeah, I mean, I went to college and then dropped out.

for acting. But then had acted and done like performing arts and musical theater my whole life. And I got scouted by an agent out here that kind of gave me like the stars and stars in your eyes talk. And he was like, if you come out to Los Angeles, I'll make you a star kid. And I was like, okay, I'm 18 and impressionable.

And so I did and it was still, I mean I suffered, I was broke, I did crazy things for money that sounds like I turned tricks, I didn't do that. It wasn't that type of crazy, just other crazy. No judgment, this is Hollywood. Yeah, it's true, it's true. But then I ended up getting into an improv class,

met a girl who did other video game journalism and like hosting in video games. And she, her name is Becky Young. She had just got done doing a web series called There Will Be Brawl with this guy named Matthew Mercer. Oh. I know who was at the time. And then so we kind of met through like

geeky web series scene and she was like, I need a girl because I was like, you like video games? I like video games. Let's talk about video games and be friends. It was almost verbatim how it went. And then she kind of introduced me to a lot of amazing people who I'm still now working with to this day. Like Tracy King, who was one of our producers on the first season of Dread, was one of the first people I met in this town. She was great. Yeah, and so I kind of ended up, kind of kept following my love for both gaming and geekiness and acting kind of at the same time, and then eventually they just kind of smashed into each other, and now I'm here at Geekin Sundry, crying over Jingah.

Well, I also went to college for acting, but I didn't drop out. Debatable. I stayed with it and I was going to be a very, very serious theater actor. I was only going to work in the theater. I didn't need anything else. And I got over that pretty quick because it's hard to feed yourself working in the theater. But I did it for like regional theater and off-broadway for four or five years. And then wanted to get out of New York when things got sour in New York and thought, you know,

it's probably too late for me to be on camera. But I started to do a little bit of dubbing anime because I met a guy doing it. to play and it's maybe something will happen with a voiceover maybe that'll work I guess and I was still doing theater here in LA and then slowly the that little pebble became a little rock and sort of turned into a boulder eventually and then I just like theater I left it behind because video games and animation and anime and now regular animation just start going and it's hard to you know when life is is a Cthulu impression no that was my nervousness before the the show started

but sometimes life just, you know, you tell life, life this is what I'm going to do, and life goes, oh, honey, here. Try this instead. But interestingly, like, I never really made, interesting to me anyway, I never made improv a priority for myself, and I wish I'd gotten into it sooner. And Critical Role really was my baptism by fire. It's the best thing, I mean, if any, or if there's any actors watching,

improv is more important than anything, I think. And I just loved how much we get to do every week for four or five hours. That's amazing. Take some improv closest kids. Erica, you and I know each other. Oh my God. Before we exploited our nerd dumps. We did.

You were both doing anything separately, but we were in this like indie film thing. Yeah, a little short. Yeah, indie short and stuff. And I don't, it's not on the internet. And I don't, I hope I don't. I hope it doesn't get that. Personally, speaking of the words.

Basically, it's a non-sexualized version where I'm Erica's Dom. But, yeah, anyway, that's the short. Pretty much. And there were wigs, so. Good wigs, good wigs. Yeah. But, yeah.

Oh, my God. So we had this idea of one show that we were going to do on Twitch. On Twitch where, like, everybody has to show their old work that they're terribly ashamed. of and then like, do a watchalong of it. Right?

Well, now you know something about Amy and me. I have a zombie short that I will never, it will never see the light of day ever again. You think that you say that, you say that, but. It was called Jezebel Zombie Lovin. That's amazing. Now I really want to see it. Yeah, I know.

You can also be seen on Pornhub as well. Yeah. What's that? But I, you know, for the record, at Amy things like a great dog. Great! But I think we'd be interested in this short film. There was no sex. It was a discussion between the two.

It was a discussion. It was a discussion. But I feel like every weird skill in my life literally was leading up to madness because I was a child actor and I did on-camera stuff and a musical theater. and a lot of Shakespeare. I stopped in college to do the college thing, communications at UCLA and violin. And then I went back to, I am method trained.

I was at the Strasbourg Institute. And I did that. And then I did UCB and improv, a lot of improv. And that's where I met, like, Sax, actually, and, like, Joe Star and all the other people that are in internet geekdom now. And so I was on this track of acting, because I really just, I love it,

and I just need to breathe it. But on the other side, I just have been a geek my whole life. I learned to read with comics, and I've been playing D&D since, for like decades. And, you know, one of my improv friends actually, like same as Marisha, pulled me in and said, oh, you know how to do on-camera stuff, and you're into video games.

So why don't, why don't you? Like, we just need somebody to, like, read a teleprompter, really. And I eventually ended up taking over all of it and writing and producing and just really taking to on-camera geekiness. And I, you know, also voice acting was kind of on this little, little path and that kind of sort of ramping up last year. And it all just kind of coalesced into madness with improv and RPGs and acting. and it was incredible.

I feel like this was the most incredible gift I've ever been given in my life. Madness. Yeah, snaps for real. I had a similar story where I grew up in the Midwest playing D&D and role-playing games and things like that, and I went to... Jealous.

I don't have that in my Midwestern. Well, yeah, I forced my friends to play D&D with me on my birthdays. You're coming over and here's your character. We're doing this. I DM'd, yeah, I would always DM. But I love playing more than anything. But yeah, I have my degree in theater and art and international studies and stuff like that.

And then I moved out here because I was like, I want to do film acting instead of theater acting because I've done that. I'm fulfilled. And I booked a lead role in a movie out here, which will never see the lighter day. It's one of those things. But it paid pretty well. And so I was able to sustain myself acting. And I was like, I got the bug. And I was like, this is what I want to do.

And then this is advice that I give to anybody when you move to like a new city, try to find your tribe. And I was with Dungeon Master and with the Sister Show Adventure. And I met like Matt and Marissa and Taliesin and just fell into it. And then King of the Nerds happened and here I am. That's amazing. Yeah. So I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee.

Where did Danny Carr, where are you at? Yes. Oh, hollering. Yes. That's right. So I grew up there, and I always was a writer really growing up from, like, the age that I learned to write. It was like writing weird stories and all kinds of stuff. And, you know, I was in Memphis until basically high school.

And then after high school, I moved to Colorado, where I went to Colorado Film School and studied acting for the screen. Because, like Liam said, I knew that I wasn't going to make any money as a theater actor. And so I was like, well, you know, I'll study here. I found this amazing coach. She was the dean of the acting program at the school, Colorado Film School. Her name is Galena. She's from University of Moscow. Stanislavski's trained, like hardcore, like hardcore.

And just really put me through this intense acting years of, you know, school there. And it just took me in a whole new level. And then she'd be like, you're ready for Hollywood. And I was like, wow. Okay. Oh, my God. And so I did, you know. Yeah, that's, yeah.

Yeah, so. Superhero. It's amazing. And that's exactly what she said. And so I, I. You go to Hollywood. Just kill these three people. Your estimation words.

Kind of how it was. So then I, you know, yeah, moved here. and I started really making money doing commercials and stuff was kind of how it came about. Oh, my God. We were at the decompression. Like, we all went to a bar after we wrapped to, you know, kind of like decompress.

And Jeremy got recognized from his commercial. Oh, that's obvious. You're the Haynes guy or Fruit of the Loom, yeah. Fruit of the loom guy. Oh, my God. And I'm like, dude, please. Yeah, not. Yeah, I was so drunk.

Not right now. Yeah, not right now. Too much. If you only knew, it just happened. And, yeah, so came here, and I had, like I said, had done the show with Adam. And, you know, I'll just tell you about this audition I had with Adam. It was like a straight-to-callback audition,

because I... And this is for what? What project? Escape the night. Escape the night. And the manager I had at the time knew the casting director of where I was. She's like, I'm going to get you this straight-to-callback with the director.

director and I was reading for the the like butler role that's right yeah which was like the driver of the show that's right yeah and I go in and it wasn't anything weird with the audition but it's like those moments when you connect with the director and like this is what I feel maybe you're like whatever this guy's a hack but but like I felt it and I walked in and I remember just like from the jump I just had this like he just started like tweaking stuff and it was like

instant I was like I got to work with this guy like please I want to get this job to work with this guy and I didn't end up getting that particular role for whatever reasons there's a network

there's a network in the middle and they call out all kinds of things on that show but I know but that's exactly what I found Jeremy and I said I'm casting him anyways is what I said to the network in something you can take this guy, but I'm putting him in something else, and that's...

Deal with it. I'm casting him, so figure the rest of it out. And that's what happened, and because of that, I'm here. That's amazing. He also said, you're ready. You're ready for Hollywood. The networks just don't know it yet. That's amazing.

Well, we're going to go now to some fan questions from chat. And real quick, here's... We have so many. Oh! Okay, so we're not gonna get through all of them. We only have half an hour. I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. This is one though that I think is fantastic.

From Dunkelheight, do you sometimes feel like your own character in madness? Have you brought something real about yourself to create them? And I'm gonna tag on if you're ready, if you're willing, what is your personal jenga tower? Okay. That's heavy.

That's deep. Yeah. So it was like what personal touches are in there, right? Is that it? So what? What personal touches from our lines? Yes, well, have you brought yourself to create them? And do you sometimes feel like your character?

Well, for me, I remember when it was time to make a character, I just didn't have any time. So I was like, well, I was just secretly make this guy me. Not a lot of it came out on the show, but he was from upstate. in New York where I spent all my summers. His name was Emmett Markham. Emmett was the name that the second choice for my son that we didn't use. Markham is my father's mother's last

name, so I was just like, I'll take that and I'll take this, I'll put that in there. And I don't want to be an actor because I'm an actor. That's, oh, I'll make him a writer. I'll make him a writer. And I'm pensive sometimes, so that's it. Too real. The question's too real. And that is fine.

Somebody else go next. Well, it's funny because the original concept for Fenley was way different than the Fenley that ended up in the series. Because you had sent out the questionnaire, but I don't know if there was miscommunication or something, but I didn't get the note that this was the 90s. And so the original Fenley was like a millennial Fenley who had blue hair in a man bun that was a barista and an artist. I talked to you.

I talked to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talked to you late. As soon as I heard the word man, but I said, Ivan, we should reconsider Fenley. I do remember that that was the one part we missed because I brought you in. But it was fine because all the things you were saying is like, this is all great. Let's just pull up back 20 years or so. Because originally his ex-boyfriend was like a social media star.

And so that was the thing of like the breakup was very public. You said it was very different, but it was very similar. Similar, yeah. Yeah. But the creepy factor was that people were like stalking Fenley and that like things would show up on the Instagram that they couldn't have access to like inside the apartment and stuff like that. So like something supernatural was going on. But it was nice to kind of discover Fenley on the day too.

And I wasn't going in going like, I'm going to be the glue and I'm going to be the center of attention. But it was nice to kind of find that in character. Can I just bounce off of that? I did the opposite of what you did, because when I was told, what we're doing a show, we're doing sagas in its Eldrish horror, and I went, okay, okay, 1930s. I'm a playwright in the 1930s. I need to look at Odette's plays again.

I need to talk with the heyday of vaudeville going to Broadway and Stanislavski. And then I was like, okay, no, it's the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. I need to watch the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. I put some Fresh Prince of Bella looks together for Fenley, which he denied me on. I'm like, no crop tops. We found the right place for Fenley, but it was not fresh Prince of LA. Oh my gosh.

Okay. Yeah. How do you follow that? And I'm ignoring the Jenga Tower question. That is fine. That is well within your rights. I am not your storyteller. So I didn't expect Jude to be such a dick, because it kind of was. But as far as like the elements I drew for myself, I guess, you know, I very much love my mother like Jude does. And, you know, I also have worked in hotels before. That's sort of where I got that whole element of it.

But, you know, I think Jude had, I have a lot of friends in my life. I'm very like, and I really like care a lot about my friends. I've tried to like probably go above being beyond more than I should. And I think the difference with Jude is if, there's the Jude's friend that he lost Jordan, who I referenced in the show, that was when Jude stopped caring, you know? And so like, because he lost this friend

that he cared so much for. And so, and it was something that he sort of felt responsible for because his friend, you know, died when he was there and then Jude didn't tell anyone about it. You know, he just sort of was like, because he felt like he was responsible for the death. And so he just sort of kept it on wraps and it was like, I was never there.

never knew anything. And so that's sort of like the black door that I was dealing with. Yeah. And that's what was so tasty about like Jude's backstory was that there was this element of like, oh man, it wasn't, oh, I lost a friend. It was, oh, I lost a friend. And I didn't tell anybody. So for, and we went even deeper into it. It's like he didn't tell the family. He didn't tell anyone. So literally like the family, as far as Jordan goes, he's a missing person. Like his family may even know that he's still alive, kind of a situation, where it's like nothing was ever reported. He just was, he just, he just, he, because he's the only one who ever saw it happen. So like writing with that level of guilt was awesome. And to think about that, I mean, it's like a

kid that's growing up and going through 13 years and then all of a sudden like at age 15, 16 years old, you know, I was this loving person, you know, and then I commit this sort of like, sin inside myself and that's going to lost. I change it. Yeah, you are exactly like I thought.

A dark person. Marisha. Sorry. Oh, we're tangled. I mean, I kind of alluded to it earlier, but probably the strongest element of Abigail that I brought over for myself was her

kind of running away running away. For Abigail, maybe running away from this kind of small town, Middle America, secluded lifestyle, and trying to head to a big city like Los Angeles and completely reinvent yourself, change who you are, kind of forget what was behind you. You're a detriment.

Like, as we talked about your look and how the fact that your look was so extreme, it was one of the reasons you weren't getting callbacks. Yes, yes. Once again, especially in the 90s. when all of our black and whites were super clean cut and we were all in polos and no tattoos. Remember when the industry was like,

if you have a tattoo, we won't. Oh yeah. But it's impossible for you to be anyone else. Yeah. So yeah, she kind of came and starkly reinvented. Like I saw her from her town in Illinois of being a like kind of tomboy, t-shirt and jeans, hair pulled back, no makeup kind of girl.

and then she kind of found these idols and these old Hollywood starlets like Greta Garbo and you know and she got inspired and influenced and that's what made her make this kind of leap beyond all the things that she

was dealing with at home. Right on top of being once again kind of a dark person so I could kind of pull from my experience of knowing what it feels like being stuck in like a small town in the middle of Kentucky where no one understands you they think you're weird because you're different.

So then they call you like in slurs and stuff like that just because they don't understand. And that can easily breed anger. Like I dealt with anger like in my high school years of kind of feeling trapped. You know, and for Marisha, it was like the town and I was able to like fight past that. For Abigail, that kind of got condensed down into her father and kind of turned into. That was the focal point. And that was the focal point of feeling trapped.

by this one individual. And she was kind of a cautionary tale of what happens if you don't. Release your anger and let that bottle up and then just stabbing. Because being angry at life is so obscure. And it's very hard to relate to, but being mad at your father and being able to have reasons to point all of that energy into it, gives it a place to go.

Right. So yeah, a little more dangerous too. Yes. And if you're a little unhinged and probably dealing with some issues way beyond all of that that can definitely culminate into some bad things which kind of isn't being Abby yeah oh god I was the wrong version of leave for last then um gosh selina is so incredibly different than me um but i brought a lot of myself to her i think oh well i I'm kind of disagree with you.

She gets real sweet. She does, though. Like, she gets really, really sweet. Thank you. Yeah, just, yeah, that was something that, again, I didn't expect would come out because she, like, is so walled off. And I was like, oh, she's going to be walled off,

and she's not going to let anybody close because, like, what if they have to watch her lose their mind? And that's, you know, you never want to have that. I think everybody brought physical items into their character. probably like mine was I brought a charm bracelet that I made and everything and um yeah that was an easy way for me to kind of like give something to it's a totem or some kind of fetish to be able to like have something to ground it grounded yeah it was very grounding um yeah okay um so i uh mental illness

runs in my family yeah um yeah my this girl yeah i'm like this girl yeah My dad had early onset dementia. And it's funny because I'm just like a happy person. I'm very lucky. And it's not something that I'm like fixated on or that I am terrified about. It hasn't affected my relationships with people.

But there was this thought like, what if it did? And Selena's kind of the person that like, if it did affect her. And I was also, I was really scared about portraying mental illness. because it has done so poorly in media, in so many instances. It's so hard to do it correctly. And I know our community especially really appreciates it being dealt with delicately as it should be. And I didn't want to kind of make it a caricature or like, you know, like mental, like mental illness gives you superpowers, kind of like a Sherlocky thing.

so like bringing that I think from my life really grounded it plus I had a friend I have a friend who suffers from probably psychosis and they talked with me a lot like about what it's like what it feels like what it sounds like and made me a playlist that actually helped me get into that headspace so I like a lot I'm like a lot I'm brought a lot from my real life into this and it really really helped a lot. You killed it. Yeah, it was tough. It was one of those mental illnesses and I agree with you. It is so, even when you touch it, it can be a lot and I mean, it was actually the part that I was least worried about because when you were talking about something you wanted to do, I was like, no, if Erica's going to make this choice, she's going to do it well. She's just going to do it fine. And I did a lot of my research on my end because the voices explicitly to make sure that I wasn't misrepresenting what that could mean. Yeah, and you totally played into it in like the correct way,

and that helped so much, like the whispering in my ear while I was making the polls and like the things that you would say. Right, yeah, because it's, ironically, and this is, again, not trying to take the question away from the cast here, the, and I'll just say very briefly, one of the reasons that we synced up on the Selena with mental illness element is at the time preparing for Madden,

I was playing a lot of games, video games and reading a lot of books that had dealt with, you know, psychological horrors. And one of the games that I was playing was Hellblade sent to a sacrifice. I specifically didn't play it before I went into this. I'm going to play it now because it looks amazing. It's great. It's an amazing game. But even, but in just knowing that a lot of people who are in the profession vetted that and looked at it and said, yes, this is a wonderful representation in a fantasy world. of a journey that this could be into.

I felt, and it had such a profound effect on me that I was like, okay, I feel more comfortable than I did beforehand being able to do, to like utilize some of these tools and tactics. So, Boosh. Thanks, Ivan. Well done all around.

Ivan, this question is for you. Libertinian says, for Dred, you got inspiration for the goat man from an urban legend subreddit. Where did you find your inspiration for madness? So psychological horror is, and I'll be totally upfront, I was not a Lovecraftian fan,

before Madness. In fact, it was something that were, there was a lot of people saying, well, let's do Lovecraft, let's do Lovecraftian horror, let's explore that. And I, it wasn't as exciting for me as some other things,

But then I started reading all of the stuff. And then Idom and I had a big conversation about like trying to try to set it in a decade that's relatable. So, and then there was, of course, some concerns about that not being true to form. And a lot of the like trying to bring technology and elements into it, which I was not okay with. I didn't want, like it was even really a stretch to have Sleen to be tapped into the internet as a month of it. And I knew that if I was going to include it, it was going to be kind of one of those, okay, this is part of the background,

but then it's not going to be part of the storyline. And that was really just kind of what it came down to. I think, too, Ivan, that like we wanted to put Kathulu, but we needed to contain it into, because we wanted to build multiple rooms. So he said, what if the hotel is haunted, but not just that the hotel is haunted, but that it's like a machine or it's somehow.

What if it's because it needs to be a contained space in order for it to be able to carry the story. So what if, what are some contained spaces that we can play inside of, okay, well, there's buildings. And one of the things about Dread was is that even though it was out in the middle of the woods, it was still in a space that we could control. So having to want to do an urban setting this time,

it felt really natural to be able to just put it in a building. And then we had all, like, we talked about time space fuckery up through the wazoo. And so it kind of all just kind of fell together, like having the building, manipulate time space and then trying to bring an elder god into the equation and it all it all weirdly rolled together. Definitely. Killed it. This is from T-boys, Zander. How did you feel seeing that after your heroic sacrifice, the Tower of Madness was then replaced with a new Dread

Tower with even more complicated? Well, like I had mentioned before, I got to watch everything happened in the video village. So at one hand, I was glad I didn't have to deal with that. But on the other hand, the real sad thing for me was I loved Fenley so much, but also that I didn't get to play anymore because I want to play the game, guys. And so that was really sad for me, but I was so happy with the choice to do that. And I feel like even though it's like random with pulling blocks from a Jenga tower, it fits so well in with the narrative of things happening. and it's such like a classic horror story.

And to go off of this too, but I think we had the conversation of like, we have to be careful as like minority characters of trying not to get killed off. Because there's like the whole trope of like, bury your gaze. Do you underwriting that article? I didn't, no. Everything just was randomized, but you made the specific choice.

There's agency with what Fenley did, and I think that's different than, what the Barry the Gay's thing plays off of it's to humanize a gay relationship by losing someone or something like that. But it really was anybody could die at any time and so there was this fair

element of that that's a great for that. Yeah, that's perfect. That's a fascinating point though, but you're correct. Like it's hard to even, like you said, when normally that is a trope to use to humanize that type of relationship, but in this case, you just die

like any other normal person. Yeah. That sounds, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was random, but it was also a heroic sacrifice, which is different that, thank you. It was just different than a character like getting killed off just for the sake of getting killed off.

It's something that you have to think about in this new genre or whatever it is that we're all playing in is that anything can happen to anybody at any time. We had, Adam and I had contingency plans if there was going to be a death in episode. one or two. Like, we knew what we were going to do. We didn't know if it was

going to happen, but we planned for it. And I know that you won't say what? I mean, friendly then we'd have to kill you again. I don't know if we want to pull the curtain back to that day. In like a weird way, though, like that makes dread and like the dread

tower, like one of the most transhumanistic things that you can find. Like, we have We have surpassed it. Everyone can succumb to the dread tower. It's an equalizer. It's an equalizer, yeah. We're all on equal playing field.

Cold and uncaring. It's not poop that is the great equalizer. It is Jenga. This is from T. Boyce, Liam. If Emmett could say some final words to Selena, any final words before the tear between dimensions closed. What would they have been? Just to drop that bomb on you.

Why? Why would you ask that? Oh, thank you. And go be happy. Go be happy. Start over. You're cheering up already. Also, send blankets because it's a real fucking cold here. Maybe some Oreo cookies or something. Just shove them to the door. Just open it up a pinch just for a second. But mostly thank you.

And Jude's going to need cigarettes. Can that pack? Yeah. The facts on it out. Nicotine withdrawal is going to be the killer. Abby's flask is almost stepped down. There's postmates in the alternate dimension, right? You think there's like a stranger's things box

where you could put Legos in it? There's not. Agos? No. There's no aggos in the alternate dimension. Celina, you're already there. So what would you say to Emmett? Sorry.

No, you're not. I love you. Oh shit. I love you. I love you. Say blanket. Yeah, for real. It's real cold.

Oh, man. Wow. Okay. This is very specific for Marisha. I understand being hesitant to use the final three bullets in the gun as they had been ineffective against the old crazy lady avatar. And you didn't know what else you could have. However, this is, by the way, from ephemimural, a fumarial. Fium are meal.

Yep. However, that was also a killer injury with no poles needed. Even though I found the ending perfect, was there any guilt knowing that having an extra one to three blocks left on that tower could have made this a totally different story?

I didn't even think about the gun. Wow. It would make me feel like shit, Emory. Oh, man. If you don't have guilt, you have it now. You feeling guilty, bro? Man.

Well, I mean, I think it's a classic lesson in any type of RPG game where maybe sometimes you don't want to hold on to all of your most powerful attacks because then, you know, the game might be done. You might have T.PKed by the time it comes around to your next turn. So it's always that, like, wait, you know, of like, I think in my head I was thinking, I need to save these bullets in case we are actually people. facing off in fighting an elder god? I don't know. Hard to say.

We shouldn't have made it so awkward at the so swery. Like, because that's another answer. That's true. That's true. I mean. There's always the element too, and I didn't even plan this out because we had tested this skill with this challenge so many times,

but when you got all three health blocks during the fuse test as well too, there's just so many things you just never plan. So I mean, I guess to answer your question, all choices lead to now? Real quick, too, because I know that we're running out of time, but I wanted to get in that there was some backstory stuff that didn't make it into like the final cut. And so I wanted to kind of bring up that the roommate or the person that lived in Fenley's apartment before him made like the mixtape and was the DJ. Her name was Sam. And it was the same Sam that Emmett was. with, which is crazy and it never came out because Fenley died before he came out.

So Finley knew Sam as well. Lived in the building. That is amazing. I know. No. Dang it. This, I think, will be our last question. It is specifically for Jeremy.

And it is also, it's just well written. It's from a firm, a humor. I loved your transition from low-life hotel manager, especially having worked in hotels in the 90s, both myself and S.O., which I think is significant other, to the transition from that to sandworm killing, God destroying, smoking cowboy with your fang tooth wielding along with your badass pistol shooting lady

along the way. Yeah. What? That's right. What are some of the things that stood out most to you during your very transformative adventure? Wow. Well, I think it was that.

I think it was Jude really coming and opening himself up. Because I feel like, and I think it shows in the very beginning, coming to the party, that how really closed off Jude was. You know, and it's like, you know, I had the relationship with Abigail, but it was like strictly physical. You know, there was like, I had no, I was like not interested. And Ivan and I talked about this. You know, it was like, well, what is our relationships?

Like, you should. One of the backstoress never came out on Jude's character, too. Just to, I hope he don't mind me throwing you under the bus here a little bit, too. Not at all. But he had a girlfriend. Oh, no, Jude. Yeah. He was, he was.

Oh, what? Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, my God. I thought you knew. I thought you knew. Jude, Jude, it's the right time. Oh, my God.

But he also hated the relationship. Yes. She had nothing on you, baby. Nothing on you. Thanks. Oh, man. You dog. You dirty dog.

Exactly. I was a very, very terrible person. But that's the thing is I think, you know, as the show went on and as I grew closer to them. And it was really, honestly, like, Finley's death did so much, I think, for everyone. And I felt like, it was like, wait a second. You know, we just lost this amazing human, you know, because of this. And it's like, I have to sort of, like, redeem him and bring everybody together. And, like, now someone's going to have to be that person, you know.

And I think just connecting with Marisha's character and everything like that, I don't know. It just made Jude try to redeem himself and make himself a better man. And it was a lot of it had to do with her and Finley's death. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for spending your evening with us. That is our show. That is one night only.

It's a Sunday. Madness. Madness. Madness. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Your car will be on fire.

Your car will be on fire. We'll all happen. That's fine. Yeah. Madness. Madness. And thank you. Thank you so much to all of you who sent in questions and who are watching it live.

You can definitely rewatch it. And if we didn't get to your questions, I'm so sorry you saw the list. But feel free to tweet. We're still very actively involved. Everyone is so you can use the hashtags sagas of sundry and hashtag madness. And then for bonus, put in that at Joint Team Alpha tag. You get so many characters now. Why wouldn't you?

For those of you on Alpha, we do have, and I encourage you to check. Check out Painters Guild season two is up. It releases a new episode every Monday with the very charismatic and hilarious Wilfredel where he really tries his artist to paint minis and kind of does. You can tell him I said that. But I'm Amy Borefile, I've been your host. It's been my pleasure and go off into the world, live your lives, but always know that there will be mania. with horrors or mind like a drill.

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