Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - A Cover Girl's Confessions [Featuring Jennifer O'Neill]

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

Description: What happens when a Hollywood icon walks away from fame to follow Jesus? What does it take to confront the lies our culture feeds women about empowerment, abortion, and identity? Jennifer O'Neill was America’s sweetheart—an international supermodel, CoverGirl icon, and Hollywood starlet with the world at her feet. But behind Jennifer O’Neill’s dazzling smile and red-carpet glamour, she was struggling. Fame gave her everything—except peace. In this episode, Jennifer O’Neill confronts the cultural deception that tells women abortion is liberation and reveals the freedom only faith can bring. She unpacks how the enemy twists pain into shame, and how God can rewrite it into purpose. More Info:Surviving Myself: https://www.jenniferoneill.com/surviving-myself-book.html From Fallen to Forgiven: https://www.jenniferoneill.com/Fallen-to-Forgiven_book.html You're Note Alone: Healing Through God's Grace After Abortion: https://www.jenniferoneill.com/Youre-not-alone_book.html  Hope & Healing at Hillenglade: https://hillenglade.org/ Glitter Girls Gatherings: https://www.hillenglade.org/glitter-girls-gatherings —"Simple Man" by Charlie Daniels - UMPG License #262673It’s up to us to bring God’s truth back into our culture. It may feel like an impossible assignment, but there’s much we can do. Join Pastor Allen Jackson as he discusses today’s issues from a biblical perspective. Find thought-provoking insight from Pastor Allen and his guests, equipping you to lead with your faith in your home, your school, your community, and wherever God takes you. Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3JsyO6ysUVGOIV70xAjtcm?si=6805fe488cf64a6d Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culture-christianity-the-allen-jackson-podcast/id1729435597

Hey, welcome to culture and Christianity. I'm excited today. Fun interview. My guest is Jennifer O'Neill. Supermodel before that was a term. Amazing. When I was a kid, her face was on all the magazines, and now she's in Tennessee with horses doing equine therapy. It's an amazing story. Married more times than Elizabeth Taylor, did about everything Hollywood and the movie industry had to offer. And then she met Jesus. And he took all of that. fame and it's an amazing story of overcoming brokenness and hurt and depression, a crazy tenacity. God will use the broken places in your life. He's certainly using him in mine. He's done them in Jennifer's. The conversation, I think, will give you hope no matter what challenges you're facing today. God is a redeemer, and I'm certain he can do it in your life. It's a remarkable story with Jennifer O'Neill. I think you'll enjoy it. Very good. Well, I'm excited about the conversation today. Jennifer O'Neill is back with us. Welcome back. Thank you for having me. Thank you. We are honored. I had such a good time. We did this. It's been over a year. Just about, yeah?

Nana, you live too close. We can't wait that long. I know. I didn't. You text me and I missed it. And because I don't text, I'm old. But I'm going to learn now because I don't want to miss your text. Oh, you're very kind. But last time you had just done the Reagan movie. Yes. And that was kind of the centerpiece of our conversation, but there is so much more that I want to wander through a little bit. Thank you. I'm going to, you all know, everybody knows I like to read, so I've usually got a book, and I got to read Surviving Myself.

I don't even have words. Appropriately. You read it? Yes, ma'am. I thought Kathy read it. She did, but I read it when I knew we were going to get to sit down again. Did you have your seatbelt on? I didn't, I wasn't tight enough.

Yeah, crazy. Crazy life, and I wrote it because I just wanted to talk about not my life. I'm not that important, but what God did in my life. And if he can work with me, he can work with anybody. I didn't come to my faith until I was 38. So I wanted to write about Jesus. Well, and there's just so much. I've been walking around for two or three days saying, how do we want to approach this?

Because I think the average person that leads a normal life like I have in Middle Tennessee, when we think of somebody that we've seen on the covers of magazines all over the world and in Hollywood. And I mean, Elizabeth Taylor wrote a... A funny comment. Yes. May I see it? Yes. Yeah.

So, you know, when we do our testimony, all we have to do is our testimony is the Holy Spirit that closes the deal. So when I wrote the book, it was painful to write and watch my insanity before I found the Lord. and I sent it immediately to Elizabeth, and she read it. So I know she's heard the gospel. And she called me up, and she said, Jennifer, we have a lot in common. We didn't date men. We married everybody, and we're both hard to kill. And so I know that she, I hope I see her.

I hope I see her later. I believe you will. I pray you do. But I think that's a good place to start because one of the things in the book that was shocking to me was your candor. because Christians tend, I'm not sure that we lie, but we certainly bury the lead a lot. And you were very open about multiple marriages and your life was not picturesque always. You were certainly in a lot of pictures, but it wasn't a picturesque story. No.

And that's the basic theme is all that glitters is not gold, where everybody thought I had this fabulous life. And I did in many ways, but I was miserable. until I came to my faith. So everything that glitters is not gold. And the overcoming to face pain and to keep saying, I'm going to go take another step. Yeah. I'm stubborn.

I'm stubborn and I'm glad that God is so patient because he had to be patient with me. 38. I mean, I did most of all of that before then. Well, I mean this very respectfully because I consider you a friend, but I was making list of words. Stubborn, rebellious, determined, unrelenting. Yes. I mean, it was this crazy collection.

I thought only God could have crafted you to have walked to that path. That's true. That's true. I just would never give up. But my details of my life are so insane. And when they asked me to write the book, I thought about it long and hard because it wasn't going to be a finger-pointing mission. You throw dirt.

You lose ground. I knew it had to be honest, and that was painful. I had to look at all the good, bad, and the very ugly abortion, multiple marriages, looking for love in all the wrong places, to come to my faith and then to realize what's important and what isn't important. But I was tenacious. That's the word. That's another word.

I think I was tenacious. I like that one. If I could, I started working at 15 to buy a horse because I moved from Connecticut. You didn't just start working. You start working the Ford Modeling Agency. Yes, my first time. You see, God had a huge plan for me that I really didn't want. I was very shy, but I was tenacious. And so at 15 years old, I found myself in Paris by myself doing the collections for Vogue and traveling all over the world and married at 17 and took me 20 years to have my children, lost nine, had nine miscarriages along the way, thinking that what I had allowed with the abortion was punishment from God, and that's not the God we serve.

The devil is such an accuser. And if we don't understand the difference between the truth and a lie, he'll bend us over with his lies. Yes, that's right. He's evil. I just have to stop for a second and blink and realize I'm here again with you and just want to thank you profusely for what you continue to do on a broader scope and the impact that you're having on people because you're a forward. runner and you still are a forerunner of the forerunners. So thank you so much. And God bless you. You were kind. Thank you. Yeah. But I want to go let's go. Can we take a couple chapters out of your story? Oh yeah. They were so I mean you're an open book. You really are. God bless you.

I mean, I write a little bit. It's not easy to be that transparent. Your childhood was fascinating. Your parents were remarkable people. Yeah, they were. They were not perfect parents. And it left some gaps in your soul and your spirit. Absolutely. Well put. But I thought there were some interest. The Lord kept putting things in front of you. Yeah.

In spite of the difficulties, your grandparents, and the stories in South America. Yeah, being born in Rio and my dad was a war hero. Literally, I read about him in books. Met my mother in London. He was a B-17 captain at 23 years old. shot down in Germany and prison camp for two and a half years, went back, got my mom, took her to Rio, my brother and I were born there. It was very, he spoke five languages. They were

madly in love, but they weren't soccer parents. So I had that hole in my heart. So as fantastic as they were, and it was like being in the middle of a movie watching them, Basanova through life. I had that hole, that need. I think that's what I was looking for and trying to emulate what they had in a marriage and not knowing my lord well as i was reading they made it made me think of lucile ball and desi arnaz yes that kind of intense yes crazy creative talented capable yes but a difficult place to hang out yes yes absolutely i would they weren't they shouldn't have had kids and i'm glad they did but they what i say the rest of us are too yeah i'm just very glad but i learned a lot from them, but not that part. I didn't feel secure and loved, and I didn't have a brother

that was a big brother, and I was disallowed my dad from the time I was 11. So, you know, in the scheme of things, I've always been blessed, always been blessed, but it was a crazy life. But you chose the blessings, and I kept seeing that. I would think in spite of what was not there in the inappropriateness of things that you had to overcome and live through, you could choose the blessing. Yes. I mean, that's amazing to me. I don't know where that came from. Again, I just thank God when I finally found my faith that he was so patient with me. And I know where it comes from now and his grace and that I just have to, I'm at a point of just trying to step into all he has for me that's already been done. Me too. I'm still trying to walk that path.

But that's where your love of animal starts. Really early. Oh, yes. Dogs. and horses. I mean, you were in for the whole vet clinic. My parents didn't have a clue. Didn't like them. It took me until I was 12 to even get a dog. And then they sent it to the pound when we moved to New York. So not to make them mean. But you tried to give it away. You tried to find a home for it. We did. We did. But she had rotten teeth.

Yes, I heard. So, but they just didn't understand it. So I don't hold them accountable for that. but that put me on my mission to get a horse that put me on my work schedule. And then, I don't know, when I read the story, the Discover doesn't feel right, but the Lord opened the doors for your modeling career. And you went from zero to 100 in a hurry.

Yes. And again, the only thing I did was show up. And I was so shy. It was really painful for me. I didn't like modeling. I worked 30 years for Cover Girl, and they were great people, and I loved them. But beyond that, really, it was just to buy a horse, show horses, breed horses, horses, horses.

And now I have a whole new avenue from that background. Well, that part I thought maybe you understated my opinion. The people I know that have had long careers in the public eye work very, very hard. If they're musicians or artists. Yes. And I have a feeling you had to do more than show up. There was a tremendous amount of tenacity and effort and intentionality because you sustained something that was not just about a gift. Your gifts may open a door and get you an opportunity.

You have to work hard. If I would get trying to attract my parents' attention, I always got straight A's. and I remember getting my report card and my dad looked at, I got one B in spelling and I still can't spell and I've written seven books and my teacher wrote back, my father and mother wrote my teacher

and said, Jennifer will work very hard on this issue. I had 11 A's and one B and the teacher wrote back and she finally gave me an A. Mrs. Leone was her name and I'll never forget it. I'm 77 years old and I still remember her name and she wrote my parents and she said, it's not that I think Jennifer will ever know how to spell,

but I've never seen anyone want straight A's more. So that's the kind of, I didn't give up. And I love her for that because she didn't discourage me. Right. So your modeling career starts and the world truly opens up. I mean, it's phenomenal. So out of that whole run, and I mean, you did it over decades. I'm just curious.

Highlights for you. Who'd you meet that was a surprise? Because you've either met or worked with everybody. Richard Avedon was my favorite photographer, and he was a legend. And then I worked with all of them, but he was my favorite. And off on modeling trips, I met the Beatles and did, you know, I mean, it was just crazy. I don't know. I didn't even like their music then.

And I was in London, and yes, we were. We went around on their motorcycles and all that. So that world was open. And I really think, I'm not sure because you do the Academy Awards or you do all the award shows. So it's a small community, the film industry. And now the television, because you used to only be a film star or a television star. But with Elizabeth Taylor, when I sent it to her, I don't know if I ever met her in person, but there is that camaraderie that you have with people in the industry that opens up all these amazing people from artists and musicians.

Yeah. You're my hero because you did a John Wayne movie. Yes, my first movie. And I was such a brat about him. I had had my daughter when I was just 19 and I was studying at the neighborhood playhouse in New York to be an actor. I wanted to be good. When I went into that, Hollywood had been calling, and I had been saying no until I studied. So I studied for a couple of years.

And my agency called up. First movie, they wanted me to co-star with John Wayne. And I said, I don't want to work with John Wayne. I want to work with Al Pacino. I want to work with an actor. And boy, was I caught short in that lie because that was the year that he won his Academy Award for best actor in True Grit. And he was the nicest man.

And I've always told that story because he was just a delight to work with. And so kind to the young actors and so forth. Well, it's amazing. And then you meet Jesus. Then I meet Jesus about 30 movies later. Yeah. And a lot of time. And I was blackballed from Hollywood.

It was not user-friendly to very typical of me. when I get excited about anything, and you can imagine how I was about Jesus. I was screaming it from the rooftops. I can believe that. And Memori Popovich asked me to go on a show about being born again, right off the bat. And so I went on with my old Bible. My pastor at the time very wisely said to me, Jennifer, I know you're an adult and you can do what you want, but you're going to be asked to do things publicly and you're a baby Christian.

You may have achieved this and this, but you're a baby Christian. I suggest that you take at least five years before you talk publicly about your faith. I took 10 before I wrote that book and started going on tours and doing conferences with women of faith and all of that. And when I came here, I had to prove myself more than ever in my life to the Christian community. because they thought, oh, that actress from Hollywood says she loves Jesus. So, TBN, that's why I was asking you about TBN, was one of the first organizations that had me on on a regular basis when I first moved here. That is wonderful.

And by the way, I have to say for your audience that I've been married 29 years to my husband since I came to my faith, and he always said I had to come to Nashville to find him. So it works when you have God in the middle of it. Absolutely. Well, to me, that's what just resonates through the whole book is the faithfulness of God. Yes, yes. You know, in spite of what we do or don't do, the faithfulness of God. I mean, to become a Christ follower later in life, you were a young woman,

but you had to live a lot of life is statistically... It's very rare. Very improbable. What is it? Over 19? the numbers go. And for God to do that in your life. I know.

I know. And then I met the old uncle, Holy Spirit. And I've been having more fun with that in the last many years of just receiving God as a father, a little different than my dad. I love my dad and I honored him. But so, but the tender part of the heart that was hurt, I quickly learned that I, I could trust him. I could trust Jesus. And now I'm just on a mission to really get to know the part that the Holy Spirit is integral in our lives as believers and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I'm just so blessed. It's insane. I agree. There have been many blessings in both of our lives. But now you spend a great deal of time and energy helping other people. Yes. From equine therapy to glitter girls. I mean, it's quite the menu that you're involved in.

Maybe we start with the animals because that's an amazing initiative. When my husband and I bought our farm 15 minutes from downtown Nashville, and I stopped showing because I didn't bounce anymore. I mean, I've broken everything at the kitchen sink. Good call. So I said I was in 65 or so, and I wasn't going to jump anymore. And I said, God, what am I going to do with this? passion I have for people, for this country, for the military, from my dad's side, growing up

with victory at sea and all of that, and my horses. And so I have been, for the last 15 years, doing equine therapy for the military first responders in their families, and now we're open to everybody who needs help. You do not need to be a warrior to have shock and awe of life. Life is pretty shocking these days. And it's the most rewarding thing I've ever done with the horses. And it's all groundwork. But it changes lives in a unique and powerful way. Your background with your dad being a vet and so forth.

But I never knew in all the 65 years I've been playing with horses, breeding them, showing them. If I knew what I know now about who they are, God was in a good mood when he made a horse. They're completely different. than a dog that just wags their tails. They're a mirror to your soul. They're flight animals. So they really create communication, trust, very biblically based. Honestly, it's incredible when I work with people who know the Lord,

the difference between how quickly they can receive from the horse who just God works through all of it. And he's really blessed it. So we've saved so many lives. And now we're doing the glitter girls, which is also using the equine therapy, but taking two groups of girls at this point, 13 to 15 and then 16 to 18 before they go off into the world and navigating their teen years, which are, you know, I almost died four times. And teen suicide is insane. And suicide from military is insane. And we have to cement our faith. and the girls are very, very vulnerable.

And the boys are too, but I kind of tend toward the girls. No, I get it. I love the story about your first horse swimming in the rock quarry. Oh, you did read the book. I promise. I was paying attention. I was on a mission to get this guy who was, I was a freshman in high school. And there was a boy, a senior, who had a horse named Blake.

And I used to run five miles each way to take care of a horse so I could ride. And I would see him at the quarry on his horse and rearing like a Jean guest ad or guest gene ad. And I was in love. So I ran to get my horse and I decided to engage him by the quarry. And we met. And I guess I can say this on this, because it's true. I was, my brother used to tease me. I was flat-chested at that time.

And so I stuffed, I talked my mom into buying me a bra. I don't know how I managed that. And I stuffed everything into it. And I went out to the quarry with my horse. And I stuck my chest out. And David came around the corner. And he said, do you want to go swimming with the horses in the quarry? So I'm swimming along and I'm thinking, I've got this made.

And all of a sudden, I realized he was going back to the, the shore, and I felt a breeze on my chest, and I looked down, and one side was flat as the pancake, and the other was out here, and there was Kleenex everywhere. Talk about humbling. I didn't do that again. No, but the love for the horse and the tenacity, a swimming horse is not just, it's not a puppy dog paddling. That's a whole different proposition. Well, if I was going to follow him, I was going. I could tell. that's a tenacious part. That's a good word. That follows all the way through the story. Absolutely. So if somebody wants to find out more about your equine therapy and your glitter girls, where do they do that?

It's called hillenglade.org is our website, and that's everything's on the website. So hill and glade, H-I-L-L-E-N-G-L-A-D-E dot org. Or they can look up Jennifer O'Neill.com and that'll send you there. And as I say, we're 15 minutes from downtown Nashville. We are open to the public. All our military and first responder fees are paid. We have a 501C3. I've had a 501C3 since 2004. So I love helping. We rescue horses as well. So we help horses and people.

And life is good. And we have a chapel. And we have Bible study Wednesdays. And everyone's invited. And yes, thank you for asking that. Well, I think there's a follow-up. And I haven't read all the books yet. So I want to, you may be already ahead of me, but when I'm reading this, I'm thinking about, I read a verse this week with the church about living in such a way that we lay up treasure in heaven.

Yes, of course. And you had a grand adventure through what most people would call fabulous success. It wasn't without pain and heartache. Yeah. But I also know that you've lived for decades laying up some pretty remarkable treasure in heaven. What an honor that we can do that. And, you know, my overachieving people-pleasing personality, tenacious personality was really happy when I read in the Bible that there are rewards. And God speaks about rewards for a reason.

He designed us. He knows what inspires us. And the rewards, of course, are put down in crowns at his feet afterwards. But I wouldn't want to just get into heaven by the skin of my teeth standing there empty-handed. and saying, hi, you know, because that's all I care about. It's the only thing that's important to me. And to pass that along through his power, through the power of the Holy Spirit, for his glory, has been the most exciting adventure of my life.

I agree. And I think it's one of the remarkable things about the character of God, that he doesn't just tell us to do the right thing, like an angry parent scolding us. That's right. He tells us, he gives us an incentive. Yes. You know, honor your father and mother, that it'll go well with you. You can have a long life.

Yes. He didn't have to add that last part. He could have just said, shut up and honor your parents. That's right. That's right. And the Bible is filled with these amazing promises. Yeah. It's an invitation into this amazing world that God puts before us.

If you don't mind my saying, my parents live with me for 30 years. And I'll share this with you. It's not in the book. I just came to realize after a period of time my parents have passed, that probably the first 15 years they live with me were for the wrong motives. And motives are essential to me, their core, because I wanted to have their attention. So I wanted to take care of them. Second half, second 15 years, I did it because God told me to and that I honored them.

And it was a whole different experience. And I think my husband on this show that he was always right by my side with them too. It is an honor to take care of your parents, no matter what. Well, we don't honor our parents. It doesn't mean we slavishly do whatever they say. That's right. Or that we say everything they did was perfect or even the best they could have done because parents often don't do the best they could do.

But it's the same thing with forgiveness, right? It is. That second book is from Fallen to Forgiven. It doesn't mean that you forget what someone's done to you. You have to forgive them. But it doesn't mean you have to do business with them. again and you won't forget but you know how to channel it so it doesn't eat you up and that's why God's so adamant about it. So it's easy to forgive people once you realize what we've been

forgiven of. When we forgive, we cancel the debt. Yes. But it doesn't mean we have to get back in line for further mistreatment. Great way to put it. Great way to put it. Because I mean, I think sometimes those experiences are to teach us to stay out of those lines. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. We shouldn't imagine that God puts us back in those places repeatedly. And then it gives you a heart for other people that have gone through it. And it's one thing to listen to somebody that wants to help you, but they haven't experienced things you've experienced. And they say, well, been there, done that, didn't get a T-shirt for it. But if they know that you've been there and that God has healed your heart, no matter what's happened, it's easier to help other people. The compassion is there.

and he uses, he recycles everything. So if he allows something, he's allowing it to grow you up, to make you more reliant on him. Who am I talking to? I'm preaching to the choir, but these are some of the things I've found out. Yeah. But when you can forgive and you can heal,

that is so much better than revenge. Oh, yeah. It gives you a place for a future with hope and fulfillment. where anger and resentment where you're waiting to see lightning strike, whoever it is, it's a miserable way to exist. It's like being jealous. It just takes everything out of you. And also when God says, give it to me, and I work like this with the horses all the time

and the therapy, when you put it down, don't pick it up again. He says, give it to me, but don't take it back. And then you'll start to heal. Hey, we have a tool that I think will help you overcome some of the chaos in the world and stay focused on the good things that God is doing. It's called Awaken Us. It's a 30-day plan. Each day's got a scripture, a little devotional, a prayer that goes with a specific topic to awaken us to God's promise and provision in this season. God's moving in the earth. I want to move with him.

And I believe this tool will help you be prepared to capitalize on God's invitations in your life. Awaken Us delivers 30 days of prayer, scripture, and insight from Pastor Allen on relevant topics. Each day is designed to sharpen your focus as you ask God to show you his heart and his truth in a new way. With the Holy Spirit's help, this book will awaken you to the impact your life has on the world and those around you. Start your journey today by requesting Awaken Us when you donate any amount at Alan Jackson.com. You also help women who have had abortions. Yes. Heal and recover from that.

It's another place where I think your candor is refreshing. Yeah. I went on The View years ago when I was working with Silent No More. And I tell you, it was like a crossfire in Vietnam. And the Holy Spirit showed up. And wow, what a dichotomy of people and anger and, fury and I haven't seen that one. I'm going to go Google it. I will find that episode. Oh, it's hysterical. It's just, it's amazing. And they were so angry. And I just kept saying,

ignorance is not bliss on this issue. All I'm saying is that I suffered an abortion. And I want everybody to know that there's forgiveness for it. It's not, not, it's God died for all, Jesus died for all of our sins. And so the enemy will beat you up about abortion. It's a horrific thing to experience, obviously for the children, but also for the women and the families. Absolutely. And there is forgiveness, and you can become a billboard for the truth afterwards

when you receive that from him. That is so good. And there's a message, you know, I think women, I'm going to step into some realizations. Oh, what? I mean, we've, if the 60s was kind of the trigger point for feminism. Absolutely.

You know, we're 60 plus years into that, and it has not delivered what they said it would. No. You have had a very full life with a great deal of success and acclaim. And I think your voice is really important and influential for helping women find a way that will bring true meaning and fulfillment to their lives. Thank you. Thank you.

And, you know, to the women's movement, that's how crafty the enemy is. is that he cross-fired, he cross-contaminated that notion with the right to kill your baby and sold it to women, that they have their right, the right to kill their own child. We're not designed to do that. So it was very crafty. He is very crafty, but the truth will set you free. And if you folded under pressure, 85% of women or girls that have abortion, as was in my case, The father was adamant, powerful, and I folded, and I hated myself.

And until many years later, it was the last thing I received, the grace of God, was about my abortion. But it has given me a voice, and I realized that he has in that tapestry, the back of the tapestry may be really ugly and gnarly looking, but the front is beautiful. His front, his picture, his purpose is gorgeous for us. I saw Corey Tin Boom speak one time. Oh, that must have been a thrill. She held up a piece of cloth, and it was ugly, just a bunch of knots. Yeah, it was a tapestry. And she turned her in as this beautiful tapestry, and she talked about her life and the pain and the suffering.

All of us have that. Yes, we all do. Everybody. All in different flavors, sizes, and all of that, so that compassion can run over anybody's issues. And they're getting more intense every day, so we have to be more vocal about our, availability for others. Do you know, I think deep wounds prepare us for great harvests and great opportunities? And I kept thinking that as I read your story.

Every time there was a wound, I thought, oh, God was going to bring a blessing. Yeah. Well, he has, and I didn't know it at the time. But he took care of me. I can't even imagine. I've almost died four times. I've been shot. I've been this.

I've been that. Hollywood and wouldn't make this movie. It's not credible. Well, no, they wanted to make it. But, you know, I turned it down and it was a very hefty fee they were going to pay me. But they wanted to do it because of all the salacious. My daughter was sexually abused. They wanted all that story.

I wrote it about Jesus Christ and what he did in my life. And I don't think they were going to honor that. And so I wouldn't let it be made. Well, you would know the industry well enough to understand that. I know right where they were going. What an amazing story. There's one more piece. and I'm excavating some of the painful things, but you lost a grandson.

I did. That's two years ago. And that's another, that's what, we don't get to stop overcoming. The grief issue in everyone's life, again, that gave me another layer of grief. My grandson was 22 years old. He jumped in a shallow pond and broke his neck. And then I didn't even know that he had put his organs up to be harvested. So he was, my daughter for a week had to go through that process. There's a lot of pressure if you have somebody.

I think that God was having a chinwag with him while he was harvesting his organs. I really do because I know that he wasn't a believer. My daughter didn't grow up. I didn't know Jesus. So I didn't show them. And it's a horrible guilt that I refuse to take as a guilt. because I can only do what I can do. But I believe that God did not let my grandson go without having him receive his Lord and Savior.

I believe that. You know, I'm asked that question frequently. Yeah. And my answer is the same. I don't have the, I'm not comfortable saying to people yes or no. Yeah. There is a God and it's not me. You know, I made an offhand statement from the pulpit a few weeks ago.

Really ingest when the Pope passed away that he went to heaven. Yes. They came and filmed our Easter service. Okay. Fox News. But it was on some streaming, and right before it, but right before it, they cut from St. Peter's. And what the Pope was doing in Rome.

Wow. And I made the snarky comment to my wife, the Pope is going to be jealous of our outdoor stage. All he has is St. Peter's. I remember that. He died the next week. And I said, see, he was overcome with jealousy. So I told the congregation, and then I got multiple, very unhappy messages from people who said that I said the Pope was going, went to heaven.

Oh, okay. So I did a podcast and I said, look, I need to make an announcement. I'm not in charge. Yes. And I'm not qualified. You know, I know the outside, but I don't know the condition of a person's heart. And we have to trust God and his grace and his mercy. Absolutely.

And the enemy will come and attack us with any point of leverage he can. Of course. And I think we have to be able to say, Lord, I trust you. That's why we need to know his word, know God's character. Absolutely. And really trust him. Trust is hard to find. And the only one that's totally trustworthy is God, Jesus.

And listen to the Holy Spirit. And trust is earned. If you give away trust without it being earned, you're reckless. Good point. And it's even true with the Lord. Yes. And as you walk with the Lord, you learn to trust the Lord. Yes.

It's why I want people to help me learn to know him in new ways because I want my trust in the Lord to grow. Yes. And you have to have those awkward. As we build trust with one another, you walk in a place and you go, are they going to be trustworthy? Yes. And when you find out there they are, you gain a little bit of trust. Yes. And I want that in my life with the Lord.

And the discernment that comes from the Holy Spirit to be. To be able to discern spirits and where they're coming from. I have a group our Wednesday, and I don't know if this is right or wrong, and I know you're a great supporter of small groups. You have to be with such a giant empowering church. But I said right off, please come if you're really interested in being a disciple of Jesus Christ, and everything that comes with that. because I want to be surrounded with people that I can trust and they can trust me,

and we're going to do a deep dive because until the day we meet him, we're being sanctified and sanctified and sanctified. So being a disciple is something we don't repent anymore. People just assume the grace of God and they don't repent. Do you think that? I find that to be very true. that where's John the Baptist? You know?

I think we have been given an incomplete gospel. Yes. You're right. Well, you don't. You don't. We repent and we gain access and then we're kind of finished with that. Yeah. And I think those of us with maturity and the Lord need to be the best repenters in the building.

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. That's why I love your ministry. But, you know, smaller, whatever the enterprise is. As you walk towards excellence or accomplishment or responsibility, the gains are much smaller. If you're a world-class athlete, you have to make extraordinary efforts to make a minute change in your outcome. Yes, yes.

I imagine if you're a supermodel, your approach to appearance is much different than mine. If I brush my hair at all, I feel like I've accomplished something. So, and I think with the Lord, we lose that. Well, you know. You haven't seen me at the barn. You haven't seen me at the barn. I don't wear makeup. My hair is sticking straight.

It doesn't matter. It's not about me. Horses don't care. Yeah, horses don't. They love me anyway. That's a gift. But with the Lord, we've got to be more sensitive as we grow and mature and for the Lord to trust us with more. Yes.

And more committed to doing the things we know. Dr. Carson was here a few weeks ago. He said, just do the right thing. Oh, I love it. that man. He's so smart. Oh. He got in the brain line twice. Yes. So kind. So kind. I'm glad. I'm glad he's involved with Trump. Me too. So you work on a new project? I, you know, I wrote Hill and Glade the movie. I was going to be with Morgan Freeman and I was going to play the part. I've outgrown mine and now I have white hair about 15 years ago when I first moved there. The magical aspects of that place in equine

therapy immediately struck me and the military and the pain they go through and the suicide raids and the divorces and so forth. And so I wrote it and I was about to do it with a group and COVID happened. And very disappointed, several times started and stopped and I said, God, I'm going to put this at the foot of the crest. I'm going to focus on these other situations in the equine therapy and then you tell me when to pick it up again. And it seems that it's time because I've got now a team that I can pass the baton on and then grow other issues and spend my time not running around in the ring so much.

So we're going for a pilot into a series. And I'm excited because I've kind of left that behind. And I don't think it was about feeling that I wasn't going to be successful. I didn't want to get disappointed. I have to be honest. I don't like getting disappointed. but I've learned to really trust his timing. And it's his.

I wrote it for him, for his glory. So I have to step back and just trust him in all things. And that includes when I want to do something and I have to wait 15 years. Gosh, Moses, 40 years in the desert. So no complaints. You use the same language similar to mine. When I have to trust Lorda, I always describe it as if it's a painful place. Well, I had to trust the Lord.

Yes, yes, yes. When in reality, it's the honor of my life. Yes, and sitting there waiting and keeping your laser focus so you don't miss who and what he puts in front of you while you're licking your wounds and feeling sorry for yourself. And it's amazing what comes in your purview when you aren't even looking. So I want to look. And I can't wait. Well, Jennifer, thank you for coming to see us again. Thank you.

Thank you for your faithfulness to the Lord. for your courage. The book, again, the one I just finished was surviving myself. It's a great read. It will encourage you. And I bet you'll have a friend that needs the tenacity. And it's a great book to share. Thank you.

Thank you very much. God is using your life in a more profound way than on the covers of magazines. Yes. Well, yes. And I'm very grateful because all of that is just glitter. It's a both end. Raymond Barry, NFL Hall of Famer, said that if God gives you a place of prominence, he has an assignment that will match the prominence.

Yes, yes. And his yardstick is the, God's yardstick is not Twitter, tweet, twat, whatever, zing-zong that you do is, it's what God says about us. And from the time you're a little girl or a woman that's just a little girl grown up, just remember how he, you're the apple of his eye. Well, thank you for your tenacity. We've all benefited from it. Thank you very much. God bless.

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