Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - How to Protect Your Children Online [Featuring Sarah Siegand]

Starting point is 00:00:00 They do feel like, well, my kid is very responsible, and I feel like I can trust them. And my response is you can't trust the Internet. And their brain isn't fully formed yet, and their spirit is not fully formed yet. And the parents were talking to, you know, sometimes I'll say, how old were you and you got social media? I was like 34, you know, and we have no concept of what it's like to have that kind of, Ferrari at our fingertips as adults because we didn't, we didn't have it. So I think parents are starting to wake up globally. And I want to see the church on the leading edge of doing something about it because we do have a tremendous opportunity to make a big shift in culture.

Starting point is 00:00:51 All right. Well, welcome to culture and Christianity. We use this podcast as an opportunity to talk about biblical worldview issues. Try to understand what's happening in our world from that vantage point. And I'm delighted to have a guest today. Sarah Seagand, welcome. Thank you. It's good to be here. You are a good Middle Tennessee co-laborer with us.

Starting point is 00:01:13 Yes, sir. But you and your husband have founded parents who fight. Yes. And we are advocates for children and families and helping them be aware of some of the challenges that they're facing. So tell us a little bit about parents who fight and what, caused you to pick up that charge? Yes. So we have two boys, so they're 20 now college sophomore and 17, so high school senior.

Starting point is 00:01:40 But 10 years ago, when they were in elementary school, we kind of out of the blue just had some troubling situations that we learned about, basically that their classmates were being exposed to pornography. And we didn't really know. what the source was, but it was clear by the things that they were talking about and by the things they were trying to share maybe on the school bus or whatnot, that that was the case. And that was really burdensome to us, especially we're talking like first grade. It's not something I was really prepared for when I was thinking about, I wasn't afraid of the issue of pornography.

Starting point is 00:02:23 That is something that had impacted our marriage early on, just like a lot of Gen Xers. And I just didn't know that I was going to need to address it so early. And we wanted to do more than just protect our kids in our home. We felt like we were doing a pretty good job of that. We had a pretty low-tech home. We had our one computer pretty locked down. So, I'm glad you had first grader, and you recognized they were being exposed to pornography. It was my first grader being told by other kids who had been exposed to pornography.

Starting point is 00:02:57 So they're in an environment with kids in first grade. Right. Where that's a talking point. Yes. And as we started talking with other parents, realizing that it was happening with a lot of different kids. And so that, of course, catapulted us into action in wanting to do something and not just protect our own kids, but really how could asking the Lord, is there something you want us to do to be part of the solution? And when we were talking with parents who were affected or just knew about it or about their own kids' challenges, they were all, they wanted to know how to protect their kids. But they didn't know how.

Starting point is 00:03:38 They wanted to do it. They didn't know how. And so we felt like that was something that we had gained a little bit of knowledge on. We didn't feel like we were experts in the technology space. Right. But we quickly started researching, learning more. I went to a great conference. And I started kind of snatching up my friends' computers and phones and locking things down.

Starting point is 00:04:02 And the Lord prompted us to talk to our elementary school principal to see if we could have a parent meeting and public school. And we knew he was a godly man, but it was still, it felt like a risk. And I don't know if you could do that now, if you could have a parent meeting about pornography in the elementary. elementary school. But nonetheless, he said, I don't know why not. They have it in the libraries. It seems like we ought to be able to talk about it. It's a touchy subject. Now, back then, it was like, oh, yes, we definitely want to protect our kids. So 10 years ago. But he said, yes, based on, we asked about it, he said, based on what a third grader had on an iPad in my office this week, yes, we need to do this. So that was coming up at the end of 2014, January, 2015, we had a very same. We had a very

Starting point is 00:04:50 simple parent meeting at our school, and we called it parents who fight because we wanted to provoke parents to action and not just learning, but like doing something about it. And then a few weeks later had, we're part of a parent meeting at our church. And then from there, we just kept getting asked to go to schools and go to churches and help equip parents. We expanded our scope so we weren't just talking about pornography, but we were also including cyberbullying, social media dangers, video game risks, all of that. So I had no idea we would be doing that for almost a decade, but here we are. And we've raised our kids in the midst of that, so you can imagine how much they liked that. I bet they were just thrilled.

Starting point is 00:05:39 They were thrilled. But they not only were very slow tech. in the way that we lived, and we had filtered technology in our home. But because we had such an amazing church community, and we had so many partners that really came into the fight with us. And so our kids' experience for their church friends was very normal for everybody to have filtered technology in their home, have way less technology. They all waited for smartphones and social media into high school.

Starting point is 00:06:15 school, some even past that. So we feel like we kind of lived two sides of an experiment, what we were doing at home, but then also what we were seeing in culture. And then as our kids went to middle school and the challenges that we were seeing in their classmates there, and then into high school. And now on the other side, I am proud to say that they are grateful, even though it was not easy. It wasn't easy for them. It wasn't easy for me. I didn't, you know, enjoy the conflict that came around that. Well, discipline is not very often easy or fun. No.

Starting point is 00:06:50 Particularly in the moment. I'm grateful for the outcomes later. I don't like disciplining my diet. I'd rather eat cake three times a day. Right. But apparently vegetables have some value. And that's a great analogy for what's happening with kids and online access, right? So it is like a diet.

Starting point is 00:07:10 What are they consuming? And it impacts their emotional. health, their mental health, but we're seeing more and more how it impacts their spiritual health, and that's not something the world is necessarily talking about. Talk about that a little bit, because I think most parents and adults in general understand social media has some effects, but we're not really sure. I suspect you've got a little more clarity on how social media is affecting the kids. Yeah, I mean, for the last 10 years, of course, we have all this anecdotal evidence because

Starting point is 00:07:37 parents are calling us when things kind of blow up in their home. and so you're helping them to mitigate that and, you know, recommend some strategies. But thankfully, there have been some really intelligent people studying the outcome. So we now actually have some empirical evidence. And we can see that when social media really rose and became very common, became very algorithmic driven, and kids were coming on by the droves, all of the negative impact is very visible. The suicide rates shot way up, eating disorders, all kinds of self-harm. And then, of course, the students who are self-declaring their mental health issues. So that we have all researched over the last 10 years.

Starting point is 00:08:25 Jonathan Haidt wrote a great book called The Anxious Generation. We would encourage every parent to read it. Jonathan Height. Jonathan Height. And he is a social psychologist. And at this point in society, he is. the person who is leading the charge to reverse the trend that has been a phone-based childhood and lots of social media access. And so thankfully, you know, his research is there for the

Starting point is 00:08:54 church to use. He's not a believer. But what's interesting is he actually has studied how religious communities navigate these issues and found that religious communities actually we're more protective for their kids online. I'm sure we all have a long way to go, but we're starting with a different premise, right? Because we have a different moral compass and we have community. We have leadership structures. We have leaders over tens, over hundreds. And I was so convicted and compelled by a couple of his interviews where he said the church should really be leading this issue. What a thought?

Starting point is 00:09:38 Because they have the most opportunity to actually turn it around in their community. And that's our story. We've seen that in our church body. You know, the kids who started off in the grand experiment with us, they are now young adults and the courage of those maybe 12 to 15 families at the beginning. gave, they lent their courage to everyone coming behind our kids. And so now we have reversed the peer pressure in our youth group, where it's really uncommon for a kid to have a phone or social media. And we've been able to observe the outcomes of the students who have come out of that

Starting point is 00:10:20 experience and how much stronger they are and how much more spiritually ready they are to engage culture. Well, a couple of things occurred to me while you were talking. One, One is I think we are almost purposefully naive about the degree to which our children are targeted. Yes. You know, if I do a Google search, I did one the other day, a Google search, I was looking for a jacket. And for the next four or five days, everything I picked up, every time I lit up my computer, I picked up a social media feed, there was some advertisement for somebody trying to sell me some form of a jacket. Yes. And I'm pretty sure if they'll target somebody in my life stage, there's no question.

Starting point is 00:10:59 and they are very intentionally coming after our children to shape their thoughts and their ideas and their values. I don't think that's some dark theory. I don't know. There's just no way. We have to face that reality. And if they're doing that, then we've got to have a plan on how we're going to protect our kids. Yes. So right now, the statistic is by the time your child reaches 13, that there are 72 million data points that have been collected on the things that they click on or look at.

Starting point is 00:11:31 on devices. Actually, just a couple of weeks ago, we did get some pretty landmark legislation passed in the Senate that does have a privacy component. And if we can get movement on it in the house, then it will actually change some of the data privacy laws around children. It will ban targeted advertising for all minors. It'll give minors the opportunity to opt out of algorithms on social media, which is huge. So we do see some hope coming. And in the meantime, parents have to remain vigilant. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:12:09 And the other thing I liked about what you were describing is it's a really biblical model, the fancy word for its mentoring. Yes. But that conjures up some things that, I think, get us stuck. But you were peer learning, and maybe somebody that was one or two steps ahead of you would share an idea with you, and we're going to go grow together. and we learn so much better in that way than a classroom setting where we collect all the information and then we decide what to do with it.

Starting point is 00:12:33 Yes. And so kudos, led by the Lord, whatever they're right. I mean, we're just so thankful that we have the unity of the spirit in our church body for everyone to really be leaning into one another. And so, you know, sometimes I engage with parents who are like, I already gave my kid a phone. I really regret it. and I think they're expecting condemnation from me, like, how could you do that?

Starting point is 00:12:58 And my message to them is, you know what, go find a parent who has an eight-year-old and tell them and encourage them. Right. And the statistic is that over 50% of parents regret giving their kid a phone when they did. And so if that's you, if you're a believer and you're walking through that, man, let the Lord use that to help another. young mom or dad understand why it was problematic. That's great coaching. Okay, my guest is Sarah Segan. She and her husband, out of some recognized needs in their own kids' lives when they

Starting point is 00:13:34 were young, now lead a mission called Parents Who Fight. And I know a part of your thing, I loved it. You said it's about actually doing something. So give us a little coaching. What are some things that the people listening can do? Yeah. So for many years, we've made a couple of basic recommendations, and I can't say they were popular because they're hard to do. But they're free. So that's great. And it's really just

Starting point is 00:13:59 delaying addictive technology. So delaying the smartphone, delaying social media. But when Jonathan Heights book was published and it became an international success, now we have this movement in where tons of people are climbing in and saying, you know, we're going to do it. So it's great because now we have all this research to back up kind of what we were sensing all along and what we were recommending. And so two really important things for parents that will be pivotal. One is to delay the smartphone until your kids have fully completed puberty. And really, the average age is like the start of high school. And there's a good reason for that. It's not because we think one size fits all, but it's because of the way their brains are being pruned in puberty. It's this

Starting point is 00:14:52 rapid change, and their brains are pruning the areas that don't have any juice going to them, right? So no dopamine. So if that phone comes into the kid's life at 10, which is the average age a kid gets a smartphone in America, then that phone is blocking experiences that will help the brain in the future. I mean, just look at, for example, as believers, we know how critical it is that we have a foundation in the word of God, right? To have a biblical worldview, you've got to learn how to study the Bible. Yes, you do.

Starting point is 00:15:30 If kids are not learning that in those years and they're only on the phone, what we see is that they don't even have the attention span. They physiologically are challenged with reading this. ancient book, right? It's black and white, a little bit of red, maybe a map here or there, but there's no memes, there's no shorts, there's no reels. It's long sentences, it's words they have to look up. And so that is an arduous task for a child who has been doped up on dopamine for the past three years. So we want to get kids through puberty and give them that delay until high school. And then the second biggest recommendation that we make is don't give them a smartphone and social media all in one package.

Starting point is 00:16:18 Because as a parent, if you're going to do your job, there's a pretty big learning curve to knowing how to help your student with a new form of technology. You're teaching them to plug it in, answer mom's call, be kind to people, you know, be authentic to who they are in the Lord and not try to impress people. So when you get some of those chops down, you know, 16 or so is really the age that a lot of kids start preparing for adulthood. So they're driving. They're potentially getting jobs, opening bank accounts, applying for scholarships or colleges. And so we feel like 16 is a minimum age that you should consider adding social media into their life. I think we probably remember that old saying of which is stronger, the flesh or the spirit, and the answer is the one you feed the most.

Starting point is 00:17:13 So if you want your kid to be spiritually strong, you have to give them time to grow into that. Most adults are really challenged with the kind of content that comes at them on social media, as well as what it's doing to their brain and hijacking addiction. but now put a developing brain in that, put a kid in that. It's not just the content that's coming at them. It's also the people who have access to them, the predators who are pretending like, they're the boy at the Cross Town Rival High School and they saw you at the game and you're really cute. No, they saw your photos that you went to the game and now they're targeting you.

Starting point is 00:17:55 So you have content, you have users, and then you have the physiological, What is it doing to our kids' brains? And I would say their hearts. You know, they are the most anxious generation. So I'm going to be sure I'm hearing you correctly. You're not saying they shouldn't have access to technology. They're still on computers and they're doing all the schoolwork and the research. As a tool.

Starting point is 00:18:20 Technology as a tool. They're technically savvy. They're using technology as a tool. You're trying to limit their, as I'm understanding you, their portable technology. and their access to the social media. Yes. As well as video games, I think video games, when we reach out to our pastoral voices that are speaking into our ministry,

Starting point is 00:18:43 and we're asking them, what are you seeing? The kids' pastors are saying video games. Video games are a huge issue in our ministry. And so I think parents need to be aware of how video games are designed to keep you in the fantasy world. And so there are some really practical protections you can put in place by setting that account up correctly so that at one hour or whatever it is that the Lord has led you to do, that sucker shuts off. And then it's not a conflict in your home of I told you and you didn't and all these things. But again, because it can be very addictive, that's an addictive media that we want you to delay as much as possible.

Starting point is 00:19:24 Okay, real world. I try to live there. Yes. You know, you're going to wait until they're 16 to have access to social media. I see the statistics. A large, significant percentage of teenagers are sexually active before that. So you're really asking parents to take a completely different tack. Yes.

Starting point is 00:19:44 I think it's a good one. Yeah. Again, I just think we have to acknowledge the kind of struggle we're in. Oh, yeah. And the permissiveness that has been pushed upon parenting. Yes. You know, and what you're suggesting is really a completely, different imagination of the influence that parents can have on the development of their children.

Starting point is 00:20:01 Yes. Well, remember, I think you had George Barna on a few months ago. He's one of my heroes. He's not very good with numbers, though. You know, we've got to help him with his numbers. The book that he wrote about transforming your kids and to be spiritual champions, that was one of my favorite books I read as a young mom. And that statistic of, you know, 2% of Gen Z has a biblical worldview and 1% of Gen Alpha. And I believe his statement was like, if we want to do something different, or if we want something different, we're going to have to do something different. And we feel like the culture that our kids are up against, yes, it is in schools.

Starting point is 00:20:40 Absolutely. We're public school parents. We can attest to that. But we are also, I mean, if you pull your kid out of public school, because the Lord has told you to do it, you have the courage to obey that, lay down your life and homeschool. I applaud you. and I have so many friends who are doing that. But if that is the case and your kid is at home

Starting point is 00:21:02 and they have Snapchat and TikTok and all of that, you're not winning the battle against culture in that scenario. And that is a very common thing in the parents that we're trying to help. So we want parents to realize that this is a channel that the enemy is neutralizing our kids. And if you think about the future of the church, What we want to see the Church of Jesus Christ in 20 years, and the people who are kids now are going to be in their 30s.

Starting point is 00:21:34 And they didn't get a biblical worldview because they didn't read their Bible. They were on TikTok. If they don't have the word in them, they don't have the sword of the spirit. They have no lamp to guide their feet. They have no light for their path, so they're confused. they don't have a foundation of what Jesus's teachings. He said, if you hear my words and obey them, you're like in someone who built a house on a rock. Well, how can they obey what they don't know what he said?

Starting point is 00:22:08 They don't know what Jesus said. And they're trying to ascertain all that from social media influencers who are Christian. And that is not what's going to get the job done. I'm curious. I deal with lots of parents. Yeah. and have for a while. And there's a disease that affects parents.

Starting point is 00:22:27 It's the disease of my children are exceptional. Yes. You know, my child is going to play major league sports. And I'm grateful. I mean, that's wonderful. You should love your children and have high expectations. But it also seems to leak into, you know, I can trust my child or my child wouldn't. So what kind of, how much pushback do you get from parents that say you're being overprotective or you're, you've gone too far the other.

Starting point is 00:22:53 way. Yeah, I don't get as much you're being overprotective now because after 10 years, we have all the scary stories. So I don't think anyone's going to be able to convince me of that, so they don't try. But they do feel like, well, my kid is very responsible, and I feel like I can trust them. And my response is, you can't trust the internet. And their brain isn't fully formed yet. And their spirit is not fully formed yet. And the parents were talking about. talking to, you know, sometimes I'll say, how old were you and you got social media? I was like 34, you know, and we have no concept of what it's like to have that kind of Ferrari at our fingertips as adults, because we didn't, we didn't have it. So I think parents are starting to wake up globally

Starting point is 00:23:44 and I want to see the church on the leading edge of doing something about it because we do have a tremendous opportunity to make a big shift in culture. Amen. I saw one of the points that were in some of your best practices, and one of them is allowing risky or unsupervised play. I like the way that's going. Can you talk about that just a little bit? I grew up in a barn, so that sounds like fun to me. That's one of the tenants that Jonathan Heights book brings out, and it's funny because I don't think that I had realized that we had kind of done that as parents along the way. But when I was reading his book and I was thinking back to all of the funny stairs that my friends kind of gave me when I let my kid ride his bike to McDonald's before school to get a frappy because he was

Starting point is 00:24:33 in seventh grade and he wanted to do it. And I was like, I watched him, you know. I made sure he got there. But I think kids now are suffering from all of these adult responsibilities and adult content is crazy. It's everywhere. So we're pushing that on our kids. they have all this anxiety, and they have none of the actual skill building that is happening to help them learn how to be an adult. And so it means extending the leash a little bit, you know, letting them in whatever way makes the most sense with your geographical reality, right? Some people do live in more rural places or more urban places, but basically as a parent, can you take a step in allowing your child to see that I can do this?

Starting point is 00:25:22 without mom and dad. And letting their knees get skinned, letting them get dirty, pushing them outside. Like we had before the street lights were on, you know, don't come home. That's not a reality that kids today understand. But for those of us who have that in us, we need to be intentionally praying about how can we instill that. And it's interesting because if you think about the summer camp model

Starting point is 00:25:49 and all of the sweet memories that go with. summer camp. I read an article from a summer camp director and he was talking about it's like, we're kind of like, you know, pulling one over on the kids because they feel independent because mom and dad aren't there. And they're doing all the stuff and they're eating the snacks they want. They went to the snack shack and got a giant ice cream cone. But the reality is there's tons of supervision around. There's this structure. You know, there's a lights out. But because we're giving them the opportunity to do that. They feel like, I got myself up. I did this thing. And if you're talking about a Christian summer camp, you're talking about a place where they can meet God. And he is

Starting point is 00:26:34 birthing all of this truth in their life. They're seeing it. They're feeling the presence of God. And then I would just say, can we do those things without technology in their pockets? can we make a stand as a church of no distractions coming in here? I'm really blessed to be part of a youth camp that's happening up in Dixon. And it's right now about 10 churches. And they're coming together. Kids are surrendering their phones. If you ask them, you know, are you nervous about it?

Starting point is 00:27:08 If it's their first time, they're like, yes. After the week, you ask them, they're like, it was no big deal. when I talked to my son about a camp that I knew of that kids had phones, I think he was probably 15 or 16 at the time. And he's a very cool, calm, and collected young man. He does not get riled up about much. And when he heard that kids had to go to a camp with phones, he was so mad. And he was like, Mom, that's the best part of camp is that nobody's distracted.

Starting point is 00:27:40 And as Christian leaders, that's a gift. we can give to hundreds of kids at a time. And it gives them the opportunity to just be in nature, not be thinking about it, and explore and just be. I love the idea. I have another question, and I may be off base, but to what extent do parents contribute to this by being determined to put their children on social media?

Starting point is 00:28:08 They want their pictures, they want to document everything they're doing. I feel like we, social. media has made us more competitive. Oh, for certain. We vacation competitively. Look where I'm at. And I think we almost parent competitively. Look what my kids are doing.

Starting point is 00:28:22 Am I off base on that? No. I think if you're saying to your kids, we don't want you on social media, then you can't be driving your kids through the heart of your social media feed all the time. I agree. And I think there is a little bit of a learning curve when we first started on social media. Those of us who are parenting who have kids my kids age,

Starting point is 00:28:40 we didn't really realize what this is the end. internet is forever, right? It was like, oh, this is felt like this closed caption thing. And so, yes, we need to be more diligent about making sure that we're not just putting our kids out there and also checking our time and attention on social media. Every person's phone has a numeric value for how long you've been on. And, you know, we joke around with kids and say, I'll show you mine if you show me yours. you know, let's compare. Because if you're feeling like, well, this isn't fair,

Starting point is 00:29:18 I want you to know I'm right here in this battle with you. And I have a time limit on my social media. And I have strategies to fast social media regularly. Or, you know, before certain events, it's like, if I'm fasting, I'm fasting social media. So our kids are looking to us for those patterns. And if they see us being prayerful about it, if they see us being willing to go without it for the sake of the family vacation,

Starting point is 00:29:45 not putting everything out there, adjusting privacy. I mean, I've sat with my kids at the barbershop, and I'm like, let me show you how to adjust the privacy settings, even though they didn't have social media. I wanted them to see that this is actually a tool that we can use to really represent Christ well. And so all of those factors play in. That is so good.

Starting point is 00:30:08 So tell us how to find, Sarah, tell us how to find. Sarah, tell us how to find more about Parents Who Fight. Yeah, so we have a website, Parents Who Fight.com. And ironically, we post daily updates on Instagram. There's a lot of great people getting the statistics into the world, getting the real world stories about what's happening that's very current. So I feel like that's a place that parents can stay up on things.

Starting point is 00:30:33 We'd love to have them be part of our community, and they can shoot me a message on our website, ask me questions. I love to answer them. It's one of my favorite things. So just for the record, this is parents who fight for their children, not parents who fight with one another. Correct. Yes. That's a whole other initiative. That's another podcast. Yeah, we'll help with those too, but this one's about fighting for our children. Well, I think what you have leaned into is of tremendous importance. And I think a lot of people have a feeling that there's something wrong, but they don't really know what to do. Yeah. And so I really like the fact,

Starting point is 00:31:09 that you're willing to have the conversation and to give them some practical ways. And I think to be in a community, we're having that discussion. Yes. It's much easier to accomplish a goal or to make a significant change in your life if you're doing it in a community of people, rather than just trying to do it with some self-imposed discipline. And it'll help your kids because they'll know that they're not the only ones. You're not the only ones being mistreated. Yes.

Starting point is 00:31:31 Every child knows their parents abusive. I grew up before we had phone lines where you could turn your parents in or I would have turned mine in. there was all sorts of stuff. I didn't think it was good, but I had mature enough to appreciate it. So thank you for caring enough, not just about your children, but the children, to put the time and energy and effort into this.

Starting point is 00:31:51 I hope you'll come back and we can talk about it a little bit more. Thank you. Would love to anytime. Very good. Hey, thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic too. If you haven't yet,

Starting point is 00:32:08 be sure to subscribe to Alan Jackson, history's YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith and change our culture. I'll see you next time.

Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - How to Protect Your Children Online [Featuring Sarah Siegand]

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