Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - Success, Surrender & the Power of Storytelling [Featuring Dallas Jenkins]

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

When faith, culture, and media intersect, it can create powerful stories that move people’s hearts. On this podcast, Pastor Allen talks with Dallas Jenkins (the creator, director, and co-writer of The Chosen) about his new movie, The Best Christmas Pageant Ever. Inspired by the classic book, Jenkins was moved to create the film while reading the story to his children. "The lesson [the children in the story] learn is that the gifts to the baby Jesus were not necessarily about what the baby Jesus needed. It was about them giving up something they had, something they loved, something they wanted, something of significance,” he explained to Pastor Allen. Jenkins discusses the challenges he faced in bringing this project to life. From moments of doubt to divine encouragement, he emphasizes the power of prayer and the importance of perseverance in the creative process. He also talks about how those lessons can be applied to our everyday lives. This encouraging podcast will help you lead with your faith and share the love of our Savior in your community this Christmas season.More Information:The Best Christmas Pageant Ever Trailer: https://youtu.be/6YlZgG4Vgpw?si=q59Hv4tLudXpWFi8__It’s up to us to bring God’s truth back into our culture. It may feel like an impossible assignment, but there’s much we can do. Join Pastor Allen Jackson as he discusses today’s issues from a biblical perspective. Find thought-provoking insight from Pastor Allen and his guests, equipping you to lead with your faith in your home, your school, your community, and wherever God takes you. Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3JsyO6ysUVGOIV70xAjtcm?si=6805fe488cf64a6d Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culture-christianity-the-allen-jackson-podcast/id1729435597

Long story short, God put my wife in the story of the feeding of the 5,000, told her to share it. And so we read through it together, trying to understand why God had us in it. And that night, in the middle of the night, a man that I hadn't even met felt led by God to tell me, it's not my job to feed the 5,000, it's only to provide the loaves and fish. Now, he told me that's separate of his knowledge of the fact that we had been pursuing the meaning of this story all day long. And that concept, it's your job to feed the 5,000, not to provide the loaves of fish, speaks to exactly what you're talking about. My job is to make the best loaves and fish that I can, to present them to God,

and when he accepts them, the transaction is over. This is culture and Christianity. We always want to take our faith and be sure it stays engaged with culture. Otherwise, it's theoretical, and it really is of no use. and I couldn't think of a better guest to help us pick up that topic than Dallas Jenkins. Welcome today. Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

I think many of us, I hope all of us, are familiar with you through your work on The Chosen. But I got this opportunity today because of a new project you have, the greatest Christmas pageant ever. I appreciate the upgrade, but it's the best Christmas pageant ever. Best Christmas page ever. Greatest is fine, too. But, yeah, it's based on a classic book called The Best Christmas Pagent Ever, yes. And you chased this project a while. 20 years ago, my wife brought the book home from the store,

and I remembered having read it as a kid and liked it, and I'd seen the movie. There was like a little TV movie that came out in the early 80s. I watch it now. It doesn't quite hold up, but I remember having seen it as a kid. But I didn't remember a ton about it, and so I'm reading it to my kids. And a couple chapters in, I'm laughing.

It's very witty. It's a great story. But I'm also getting emotional. There's little subtle things throughout that start to get my attention. So the first thing was, and I think you'll appreciate this as a pastor, the story in the gist of it is the six Herdman kids are the worst kids in the history of the world. And they go to a church locally because they heard their snacks there. So they would normally never set foot inside of a church. But they go because they think they're snacks.

They show up in Sunday school and they end up taking over the Christmas pageant and playing all the lead roles. And everyone thinks it's going to be a disaster. But early on in the story, they get to church for the first time, and they're in Sunday school, and they hear about the pageant. And so the worst of the herdman's, her name is Imogene, says to the main character, what's the pageant? And she's like, oh, it's like a play. She goes, what's it about? And Beth says, it's about Jesus. And Imogene says, oh, everything here is.

And I thought, I'm like, I just immediately got emotional because I'm thinking, how amazing would it be, or is it, to be at a church or part of a church where everything. everything's about Jesus. And I thought, that's what I'd love to be known for. That's what I'd love the church to be known for. So that started to get me right away. Well, at the end of the book, I'm reading this last chapter. And I am crying so hard, I cannot read. And my wife, Amanda, goes, all right, let me have it. Let me read it. She grabs the book. And she starts crying. And so we take turns reading while the other is recovering. And the message of seeing the birth of Christ through the eyes of children in poverty or children who are troubled or children on the outside and how it actually brings them closer to the gospel story than maybe even those of us

who take it for granted are. So I closed the book and I said, I have to make this movie. I'm the only one who can make this movie. The humor, the pathos, the Christmas message, working with kids, it all reflected my heart. And for over 15 years, I pursued the rights. Now, I'll elaborate here just for a second. I also, early on, wrote in my calendar on my phone and my computer, three words, pray for pageant. So once a week, it would pop up on my phone or my computer and just remind me to pray. And I would, honestly, I wish I could tell you that I was always praying just for God's will to be done and I'll be happy with whatever the outcome is. I'd like to say that I prayed that. Sometimes I did, but I was really like, God, please let me have this. I feel, I just felt like he

put it on my heart so clearly. And I said, please don't let anyone else make it. And over the years, I would check in and they wanted to do it with a big studio and a big time director. And at the time I hadn't done much of, I mean, I'd done a few projects, some with some success, but nothing of tremendous significance. So I was always checking in, always getting told no. So five years ago, I reached out again. And they said, okay, we've got the rights back. The studio didn't end up making the movie. So I'm making a big pitch for myself. And they said, ultimately, they chose to go with a new studio and a new director. And I was really upset. And so I went to my wife and I told her. And so we're crying. We're frustrated. And I said,

I think it's over. So I go back to my office. I sit down to get some work done. Ping pops up on the calendar. Pray for pageant. And I have a sense memory now. I might even get emotional thinking about it because I remember grabbing the mouse for my computer. And I started sliding the cursor up to the delete button. And I said, I can't do this anymore. I can't keep praying for something that's going to only get my hopes up and disappoint me. And they just said no. So I went to delete it. And one of the few times in my life where I really felt like the Holy Spirit clearly was saying something to me. And I just felt like I heard, don't do that, not yet. Wow.

And so I was like, all right. So I put the mouse back. And I pray for pageants. I'm like, all right, God. If you will be done, I hope and pray that you will do your work. And I'll be able to rejoice in you no matter what the outcome is. And I'm doing all that Christian stuff that I didn't fully believe in the moment. But I did the deed.

And at that time, my wife walks in. And she says, you know, Dallas, I was just praying. and frustrated, and I just felt God putting it on my heart, like, this isn't over. I just don't think it's over. And I'm like, oh, man, I wish you wouldn't have told me that. Because I felt like God was putting it on my heart. Now I'm going to get my hopes up. And I just, I was cautiously optimistic, but God just really seemed to knit our hearts

in this. So just a couple of years ago, I reached out again. I know, like, it's time for my annual check-in and bugging. And the guy says, funny you should call because just a week ago, the studio, the new studio, forgot to extend the rights. so we have them back, and we've been kind of frustrated that they haven't been doing anything with it. And my mom called me just a couple days ago.

She's in her 70s, and she said, have you heard of this show called The Chosen? And I said, oh, that's funny. The creator of the show is bugging me all the time to do Best Christmas Pagion ever. And she said, you better give him the rights. He's the only one who can make this movie. I don't know what you're thinking.

And he's like, all right, I have to listen to my mom, so let's talk. And now I got a chance to finally get the rights, and it's coming out in theaters, big Hollywood release. But at the heart of it is this. very strong Jesus story. And so God made me wait for a long time. I was camped out at the edge of the

Red Sea for a while. And so when the waters finally parted, I knew it was him, but it was clearly something that he called me to. So that's a very long answer to your question, but it is how God works. I don't know why God asked us to wait sometimes. I wish that seems to be a part of following. Yeah. And I think many times he waits until you are willing to trust. And then even then he might wait, you may have you wait a little bit longer, but ultimately I've learn that surrender is typically what's necessary to proceed revival or proceed a move of God. And so I'm trying to learn to surrender as much as possible.

And we don't ever become too successful or too old. We have to continue to do that. Oh, he puts me at the edge of the Red Sea constantly. And now that I'm talking to, you know, even the story of the chosen is a God story and how it came about and surrendering in the midst of my failure. But you'd think that after six years now that it is by all objective measurements, one of the most successful shows in the world, that things would have gotten easier and that now I can finally relax and my career is at a place where I'm happy. Like the last five years have been the hardest of my life. The last year has been the hardest of our family's life without a close second because I think God wants us on what my wife calls the Manna Program, which is every day

we open our hands for God's daily mana. And just like he told us, the Israelites, if you store it up for another time, like over the weekend, I will make it rot. And I think he was saying, and of course, you're the pastor. So you can ultimately give your people the final word on this, but I think he wanted them open and in need of him every day. And when you start to get content and you start to kind of store up the manna and go, okay, now I can relax. I think that takes away our desperation for him, and I don't think he wants that. No, I think you're out preaching the preacher. That's good. There's a scene in the movie that I love.

I genuinely enjoyed this movie, so that has nothing to do with you being here. But there's this scene where the Herdman kids have volunteered to play the role in the pageant. But they don't know the story. And so they're reading in the story, and they begin to react to it in an honest way, not in a church way. Like they want retribution against Herod. Right. And they have some really clever ways. I mean, you're going to take Herod out.

It's genius. It invites us into something we're so familiar with. but with a really authentic response. Yeah. And that's from the book. I remember reading that scene where the head of the Christmas pageant, who's a mom who's volunteered to direct it,

it's been around, they've been doing the pageant for decades, and it's always had the same exact tradition. It's what everyone's comfortable with, and Mary is the sweet, pretty precious girl, and it's a nice, sweet nativity scene where everything looks pristine. And so she's reading the Christmas story again

because the herdmans hadn't heard it. And they start asking, questions, and I'm going, this is impactful to me for two reasons. Number one, the fact that these kids haven't heard it. We actually, just a quick side note, when we were auditioning kids for this movie, we're watching hundreds of tapes that kids had submitted, and they're mispronouncing some of the names and some of the terms from the story that we take for granted, and it's because they hadn't heard it. And their parents didn't correct them because their parents don't know the story very well. And so we sometimes go, well, everyone knows the story of Jesus.

And we're living in a time where that's increasingly less likely. And also, they're used to maybe the story from that surface level perspective. So the scene where the kids are now asking all these questions, and they're like, wait a minute. Okay, who are the shepherds? Okay, wait, they couldn't find room for a pregnant mom. Are you kidding me? And they're angry about it, right? And they're also going gold, frankincense and myrrh.

What kind of gift is that for a baby, right? And to them, it's a baby's not going to appreciate gold, frankincense, and mur, but the lesson that they learn and that they ultimately end up applying, which is one of the more beautiful moments in the story, is that the gifts to the baby Jesus were not about necessarily what the baby Jesus needed. It was about them giving up something that they had, something that they loved, something that they wanted, something of significance. And, man, that reminder that not everyone knows the story and that not only can help. those folks who don't know the story. But for those of us who know it, sometimes we need to be revived in our appreciation of it by someone out on the outside. Absolutely. No, and you do it so well. This is, when's it going to release in theaters? So November 2nd is Early Access and November 8th. What's that mean? What early access means you get a chance to see it a week before it comes out. Okay.

So that Early Access grants you, we have some extra content. So it's a Saturday, you can go see it. and I've got a scene from season five of The Chosen from the Last Supper that I'm showing in this early access screening that we're not going to show anywhere else. And then November 8th is when it's available for the – that's where it launches on a Friday. It'll be available as long as theaters have it. But it's nationwide? Yes. And theaters all over the country from a big major studio, treating it like a potentially new Christmas classic, hopefully. So just to grab by Google and he'll help find you the theater near you?

Look up the best Christmas page ever. look at your local theater whenever you're listening to this podcast, and hopefully it's still there. This is a pay-it-forward opportunity. This is an opportunity to take the Christmas season and take a friend or a friend of one of your children or your grandchildren and invite them into the Christmas story in a way that is impactful. And it won't feel exclusive, right? You know, that's the thing is sometimes you see Christmas movies and they completely lack any connection to the nativity or to the true story. And then other times you might see a church movie or a Christian movie that feels so, I don't know if preachy's the right word, but it feels like it's

only for the believers. This is a movie that has the strong Christian message in it. It gives you the gospel for sure. But it doesn't feel like homework. It feels like anyone can appreciate it. And we've had screenings now. We're plenty of people who aren't traditional believers, including some of our cast and crew, who've been completely in love with the story and in love with the movie. So this is something you can invite your friends to, and it doesn't feel like you're dragging them to a church service,

but afterward they might actually be more inclined to go to a church service. Well, I know I'm a pastor, and I've been responsible for Christmas pageants forever. Right. And you helped me laugh at myself and the environment in which I lived without it being uncomfortable. Right. I'll tell the story because they can all like.

laughed at me. I broke horses to help pay my way through college, at least part of it. So we're going to do a Christmas pageant, and we wanted a donkey for Mary and Joseph to ride in the church. So I said, I can do that. I can break a donkey. I've done this professionally. Right. It did not go well. Yeah, donkeys are different than horses. They are very different. Finally, the donkey laid down in the front door of the church, literally laid down and was not going to get up. And I lost any semblance of Jesus. Fortunately, there were no cameras or film at that point in time. But, yeah, you were not living out.

But I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't come to our Christmas pageant because of the attitude I had towards that donkey before we ever got there. Exactly. Yeah, no, we've all been there. And this movie, I think if you grew up in church or if you've ever been to church on Christmas Eve, you'll recognize it. And it definitely captures some of the clunkiness that church can experience when they're trying to put on a pageant.

you've got all the players, you've got the church moms who are a little bit concerned about bringing in outsiders who might mess with tradition. You've got the dads who are bored sometimes and don't always love it. You've got the pastor who is trying to do the best at living out the gospel. You've got all the players. You've also got the visitors and the outsiders. And so, yeah, we've all been there. But the title of the movie is the best Christmas page ever. Hopefully that's not too big of a spoiler.

but we don't shy away from the fact that we really give you a good pageant in this movie. It's a blessing. It is to me, and it's not even Christmas yet. I will go back to Chosen for a minute. There's a level on which I have been an apologist for you. It's part of the job description. People come up and go, what do you think about the Chosen? Did you see this episode?

Did you think about that? I heard this or that, yeah. This is what I read in my Bible, and this is what they showed. Right. So I'm happy to have an on-the-record moment, because I think you've given a gift, not just to the body of Christ. I think you've given a gift to a point in culture and time. Because the arts are such a powerful way of communicating.

And for hundreds and hundreds of years, Christianity was communicated through the arts, far more than we were any other way. And somehow we lost that, and it became secular. Our music, our drama, our theater, Hollywood, Lord knows. and you have brought new life to that. You help me imagine the characters that are familiar to me from the pages of the scripture. And you're not pretending to give me the original Greek meaning of whatever. But I think you're trying to elicit a thought about Jesus and the impact he had in our world.

And I'm grateful for that. Yeah, well, thank you for that. I think let's address the elephant in the room because there are people who maybe before they've seen it or maybe even while they're watching it can be uncomfortable because of something that we would actually agree on, which is it would be a bad thing if the chosen came along and either did one of the two, one of the following things, either it replaced the Bible for people. Like if people were like, all right, now I've got a fun TV show, it's got some Bible in it,

that's enough, that's my own devotions. That would be a problem. If you as a pastor would be a problem if one of your congregants was replacing the object of our worship with a new object of worship. So that would be a problem. The second thing would be is if I was contradicting the character or intentions of Jesus and the Gospels. So the majority of the show isn't actually directly from Scripture. I mean, if you think about it, every time Jesus says hello to someone, that's not directly from Scripture, right? But anytime we do anything that isn't from Scripture, it's still inspired by Scripture.

It's giving context and cultural context, historical context. But if it ever contradicts the character of Jesus or the intentions of God's Word, that is a problem. So we can all agree on that. That said, I recognize fully that the chosen is not the Bible. I am not God. Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus is not Jesus. And the chosen is not the Bible. I'm glad we clarified that.

Yeah, I'm glad. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page. no pun intended. So that, because we know that, and we even say that before episode one, actually the words, viewers are encouraged to read the Gospels is right up there before episode one. Once you're comfortable with the fact that, all right, we know the difference between us and the Bible. The Bible is the perfect word of God. It is ultimately the end game. But a show like this can, and it has for millions of people around the world, sometimes turn black and white into color. And I have heard, and I'm not exaggerating when I say,

say this from directly hundreds of thousands of people either on social media or email or people in person and then millions of people indirectly who have shared not only has the chosen not replace their Bible they're reading their Bible more than ever and that is i think the i wouldn't call it the proof but i think it's evidence of the fact that um that we're on the right track right because the end game of getting more people to read their Bible getting people to go back to church getting people to engage more to hopefully be disciples more. That is the end game. We're not going to be watching TV shows in heaven. So I'm fully aware of my role in this. I am not the thing. I am pointing you to the thing. And so I do want your listeners, and I do want you as a pastor to know that where my heart is

so that you can feel comfortable saying, this isn't the end game, this isn't the thing, but it can inspire you to the thing. And the person who's behind it is surrendered and is humbled and loves God's word and is right-sized before God and knows my place in it, and it's not to replace anything. No, and you do it. I applaud it. It has been a blessing to me and a gift to me in a very personal way. And I think the critics are the people that stand apart from it, there's a lack of awareness,

you know, as a pastor. I serve a local community of faith. We call it the church. Jesus is the head of the church. His expression in the world in which we live is through his church. You take that all too. Literally, it will crush you because I'm flawed, I'm broken, I'm a cracked pot. The community of faith I lead meets all those same criteria.

It's not the Hall of Fame. It's a triage unit. Much like the disciples. And yet we're holding out the love of God in this dark and broken world. And so I feel tremendous joy at finding somebody who brings creativity and talent and imagination. to helping do that. I'm not looking for a place where, well, you didn't present that in the way I imagined it.

I'm rejoicing that you helped me see it in a new way. Right, right. And it's easy for people to stand outside the church and be critical of a local church. Or you can come be a part of it and help solve the problems. And so let's use your efforts to celebrate the reality of God

and not sit in the critic's seat. Yeah, and sometimes even when we disagree, it can be an opportunity to explore deeper. you know, the whole concept of the hypostatic union and God and man, and he was 100% God, 100% man. Where on the spectrum did Jesus fall in this moment in Scripture or in that moment? Is he more God or more man at this point? Excuse me, is he, yes, he's divine, but he also laughs with his friends at a wedding.

He did a favor for his friends because his mom asked him to and turned the water to wine. All of these things. The only thing I reject is when someone, thinks they can solve 2,000 years of debate about the hypostatic union in one YouTube comment. Good people can disagree on these issues or wrestle with them together or reason together. And there are some people who I call the all or nothing now or never crowd, where they feel like they've got the monopoly on the understanding and knowledge of theology and on every word of the Bible.

And I think that sometimes there's an opportunity for us to wrestle with and explore more. And if we don't fully agree on the interpretation of a particular story or verse, you're in good company because they were doing it even in the first century. And the disciples weren't fully understanding everything that Jesus was saying. And they had to wrestle with it. And they had to see it. And they didn't have the benefit of the Gospels. The Gospels hadn't been written yet.

So they were wrestling with through some of this as well. So now we have the Gospels, but we're still not there yet. We're still on this side of eternity, never going to fully understand God because we are not God. And so we're always going to seek him. We're going to pursue holiness. we're going to fully try to embrace everything that he has for us. But on this side of heaven, our job is to be the hands and feet of Jesus and to love others as he's loved us. But if we're going to try to claim that we understand every single story perfectly and we don't need any more interpretation or wrestling through it,

I think we're missing out on what God wants for us as we get sanctified. I just want to clarify. I know you've had a lot of affirmation and a lot of people appreciate your work. I suspect there's been one or two that we're less than please. I know. I can't imagine that that's true. I'm betting a thousand. Everyone has loved it. No, it's, you can do a Google search on Dallas Jenkins, and you will find plenty of videos and articles with hundreds of thousands of views that are very, very critical of me. And you've got also plenty that are the opposite. I've got a, my job is to not really try to seek either one

or avoid the other. But yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. But I didn't cut me off. I have an agenda in the question, because when I read my Bible, I've been living in the gospel of Luke lately. The resistance that Jesus met was so consistent, so unrelenting. And it didn't matter the good he was doing. He could be healing the sick, raising the dead. Whatever he did, there were voices, you know, he would heal a man who was paralyzed and couldn't walk, restore the man to mobility, and the people complained. And yet Jesus persisted. And that carries on beyond the Gospels, right into the book of Acts, same author, Luke, I'm telling Dallas Jenkins. Yeah, I've heard of them.

Good guy. But I think it's important because those of us who are Christ followers today in the 21st century, we want to be received with applause and affirmation. And if you're going to represent Jesus in this world, there will be people who will cheer, and there will be people who won't

represent Jesus anyway. Even if you're Dallas Jenkins, that's true. Right. And that's so important, I think, for everybody listening to understand that. Affirmation was my drug of choice for a long time. The majority of my life actually. I wanted to be legitimized. I'm in a business that is measured by numbers, measured by affirmation. You're only as successful as your last project. How many people

loved it? You're trying to gain awards credibility. You're trying to gain box office success. And that was my fuel for a long time. And I got to 2017 when my movie, it was called The Resurrection of Gavin Stone. And it was released nationwide, and I had had the affirmation that I'd sought. Big Hollywood producers were involved, and it completely failed. Just a total bomb. And that day, as I was crying and confused and praying and unsure of my future, unsure if I even had one, long story short, God put my wife in the story of the feeding of the 5,000, told her to share it. And so we read through it together, trying to understand why. God had us in it. And that night, in the middle of the night, a man that I hadn't even met, felt led by God to tell me, it's not my job to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish. Now, he told me that's separate of his knowledge of the fact that we had been pursuing the meaning of this story all day long. And that concept, it's your job to feed the 5,000, not to provide the loaves of fish, speaks to exactly what you're talking about. My job is to make the best loaves and fish that I can, to present them,

to God and when he accepts them, the transaction is over. So I got to a place for the first time in my life where I was genuinely okay if I never made a movie as long as I was in God's will. And I stopped caring what people thought of me. I stopped trying to avoid criticism or gain praise. I stopped trying to see whether or not my loaves and fish were going to actually successfully feed 5,000 people. And so I changed. And so now, whether I get affirmation or whether I get criticism has truly become irrelevant. And when you can get to that place where you have lost the fear of man and now you are just simply trying to please God and your wife, in my case, it's a superpower. And so I have gotten lower and more surrendered as the show has grown

because it's so easy to realize I'm not this good, like the show that's become this successful and gotten all the things that I used to seek before I stopped caring about them. awards and money and the box office and success by the world's eyes. It really is a cool place to be of going, if God took it away tomorrow, that's okay too. I'm just presenting my loaves and fish. Now, we have a responsibility to make sure they're healthy loaves and fish. We do want to make sure that they are not poisoned by our own ego.

But for me, that is, that's the story of the show is the story of my own, my own brokenness and humility. Well, I appreciate you making the effort to share it with all of us. We haven't talked about this, but I think I know you well enough. I suspect it was very much on purpose. The release of the best Christmas pageant ever right around the election? I can't say it was exactly purposeful, but we certainly didn't. It didn't hurt because there's going to be a lot of people, regardless of what side of the aisle you're on,

who that week are going to be either excited or very dependent. I'm impressed. And I have my own hopes, but my hope is that no matter what we do remember, as much as God does call us to impact culture, and that includes politics, and as much as you and I are no doubt on the same page on a lot of political issues, I think we'd also agree that there's no solution for any divide besides Jesus, and that we can lose the political game and not be the first. There are countries all over the world where Christ

is very strong and evident among his followers where they don't even have the benefit of voting. So politics, as important as it is, is not the end game. And so my hope is that that week, that weekend, they're kind of brought back to what truly matters. And that regardless of who's in power, the Christmas story still exists and has resonance. I think it's a perfect reminder. I'm in the habit of saying frequently and broadly that fundamentally we don't have a political problem. We have a spiritual problem. Right. And I think the best Christmas pageant ever is a perfect

component to all the emotions that are going to be involved in those days. So I would strongly encourage anybody listening not only to plan to see it yourself, but take somebody with you. I think you'll be grateful for that. Dallas Jenkins, it's another contribution to our culture. Thank you for taking our faith and giving it some imagination. I appreciate that. And thank you for what you do. As I said, What you're doing is discipling, and that is ultimately the end game. The Chosen and Best Christmas Pagin ever are invitations to join, but it's not where it ends. Absolutely.

Culture and Christianity can't be separate. We can't go sit in a building on the weekend and have church and then think we go live our lives. They are very much integrated, and the more we integrate them, the better our quality of life will be. Thank you so much. Thank you. You know, I've heard it said that Jesus wasn't involved in culture, that he was a theologian. Well, I'm quite certain the devil wants us to believe that. We have to take our faith outside the walls of the church

and live it out in the world in which we find ourselves. I've written a new book, Jesus, his followers, and politics. It helps us take our biblical worldview into the culture and be difference makers. Folks, we can't hide in the churches and preach sermons. We've got to make an impact in this world with the good news of Jesus Christ. This book will give you a template, a roadmap for doing just that. I believe it'll be a blessing to you. So many things that our culture calls political are actually.

actually biblical. Let's focus on following God and he'll provide all we need to take his truth to the people around us. Request your copy of Pastor Allen's new book, Jesus, his followers, and politics. When you donate $25 or more today, just go to Alanjaxon.com or call 800-8805102. Hey, thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic too. If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Alan Jackson Ministries YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity podcast

on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith and change our culture. I'll see you next time.