Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - The Crisis in Children’s Ministry: A Call to Action [Featuring Dr. George Barna]

Episode Date: March 16, 2024

How can children learn God’s truth if we don’t know it ourselves? Dr. George Barna joins Pastor Allen Jackson to discuss the current state of children’s ministry in America—both in churches and Christian schools. The Director of Research at Arizona Christian University’s Culture Research Center, Dr. Barna’s research shows that seven out of eight youth pastors currently serving in Christian churches across the country do not have a biblical worldview. “To imagine that the church is going to lead a transformational culture without having a biblical understanding is insanity,” Pastor Allen said. Their discussion shows that taking children to church and enrolling them in Christian schools doesn’t mean they will be taught God’s truth. Ultimately, parents are responsible for their children’s training, and the podcast offers action steps we can take to disciple the children in our lives. More about Dr. George Barna:https://www.barna.com/people/george-barna/--It’s up to us to bring God’s truth back into our culture. It may feel like an impossible assignment, but there’s much we can do. Join Pastor Allen Jackson as he discusses today’s issues from a biblical perspective. Find thought-provoking insight from Pastor Allen and his guests, equipping you to lead with your faith in your home, your school, your community, and wherever God takes you.Listen on Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/3JsyO6ysUVGOIV70xAjtcm?si=6805fe488cf64a6dListen on Apple Podcasts:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culture-christianity-the-allen-jackson-podcast/id1729435597

I'm at NRB this week, and I've been getting to talk with some old friends and making some new friends. It's a wonderful collection of people who are using their voice for the sake of the gospel in this most unique season. I know you know by now. It's an election year. I think we have a challenge in front of us, not just selecting candidates and deciding to participate in the process, but avoiding the pitfall of imagining that an election is going to fix all of our problems. Politicians didn't make these problems, and politicians aren't going to fix them. Now, I believe elections have outcomes, and I think it's important to participate in the process. If you're not registered to vote, stop and go register to vote.

If you don't know how to do that, you go to My Faith votes and just follow the banners. You can do it online. And then participate in the process, invest the energy and efforts and know who the candidates are and the difference it makes. On a national platform, it's not about personalities. If you don't like one candidate because they're too snarky and you like one because you think they're cute, it's irrelevant on a national basis. they're going to do what the party platforms say. They're committed to do that.

That's where the funding comes for. They don't really have a choice. The local elections, that's more about individuals than their choices. Participate in the process. But here's the mistake. Political candidates aren't going to fix the heart problem, and our nation has a heart problem. That's the church's assignment.

Our assignment is to be a transformational voice in the midst of whichever place God plants us. I love this nation without a policy. I'm grateful for the heritage we have of a Christian faith. I'm not confused. I don't think they play the star-spangled banner and the elevators of heaven. And I don't think behind the pearly gates, the red, white, and blue is going to be flapping in the breeze. But I do believe God called our nation into existence and that our educational system, our legal system, has emerged from a biblical worldview. And we're the holders of that heritage.

And if we lose that biblical worldview, which is rapidly disintegrating before our very eyes, it's the failure of the current generation of the church. We are to be salt and light. Now that's not an easy task, because right now that makes us countercultural. We'll stand outside of most of the conventional wisdom. We'll be choosing a path that most people would say only losers would take. I borrowed that from Dr. George Barn. I'll introduce you to him in a minute. But that's an intriguing idea to me. Do you have the courage to walk a path that the current culture says only a loser would choose, yielding your life to the Lordship of Jesus, embracing a biblical view of human sexuality

and a biblical view of morality. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to teach your children to do that? If you're not, you really need to reconsider if you think you're a Christian. It's more than walking the aisle and reciting a prayer and getting dipped in a pool. It's leading and yielding your life to the Lordship of Jesus.

And we don't get to choose those moral boundaries. We submit to the ones that the king has given us. Our entry into the kingdom of God means we have joined a new kingdom, and we don't define those rules and those regulations. I understand it's a bit of a call to a radical response to our faith, and I hope it disrupts your notion that sitting in church is enough. It just simply isn't. That's like saying sitting in a gym will make me an athlete,

or sitting in a gym will make me an Olympian. To be an Olympic athlete is going to take years of training and discipline and sacrifice. to be a person who honors Jesus of Nazareth with your life is laying your life down. It is a call to sacrifice, a call to discipline, a call to surrender. Now, are there benefits? Absolutely. It's the most fulfilling way I know to be under the planet, to be in a life under the sun on this planet.

But I'm not telling you it's easy. I am suggesting it's worthwhile. Well, my guest today is a powerful voice, along these lines. Dr. George Barna has been doing statistical research on the church and the body of Christ and our culture for a great season. He's been a powerful voice in my life into the body of Christ in this nation and beyond, and I'm honored to have the privilege to do an interview, a podcast with him this week at NRB. I think you'll enjoy what he has to say. We are watchmen on the walls, and if we see evil and we don't use our voice, it says it's on us.

our exercise of our faith in America is at risk what are you going to do about it we are called to be advocates for Jesus of Nazareth in Nashville this April join us for the Culture and Christianity Conference Brandon Tatum Eric Metaxus Kirk Cameron's Allie B Stucky and more go to lead with faith.church to register

Well my guest today is Dr. George Barna welcome it's a treat to get to speak with you That's great to be with you. Thank you. Your research and your writing and your analysis of the church in our culture has been a light in my life, but to the body of Christ for a long time, and I thank you for your faithfulness. But I'm more interested in now looking forward. Rearview mirrors aren't overly helpful to me. I have a degree in history, but I still like looking forward.

And I think you have had some of the most insightful understandings of the condition of the church. You know, I remember a report that stuck in my head was some analysis on youth pastors. And the lack of a biblical worldview and amongst the people in our churches that are working with students, it was pretty alarming stuff. And to imagine that the church is going to lead a transformational culture without having a biblical understanding is insanity. One of the things that I've discovered in doing the research over the years, we look at what influences people who think what they think and do what they do. And one of the things that I've learned is that as we've categorized those influences,

local churches aren't even in the top 20 influencers. On average, I mean, there are some churches that have great influence with their congregations, but on average, the local church doesn't show up. So we've got a long way to go if we're going to turn that around. And the research specifically you're alluding to with children's pastors was one of the most alarming studies I've done in a long time. Because we know that a person is driven by their worldview. We know that a person's worldview is developed by the age of 13. And so when I look at a local church, to me, the most important pastor, no offense, but the most important pastor in the whole or

organization is the children's pastor. And then to find out that only 12% of them have a biblical worldview. Another way of saying that is seven out of every eight children's pastors currently serving in churches, Christian churches across country, do not have a biblical worldview. So it's actually more dangerous to take your child to a church than to keep them home. which to me ought to light of fire under a lot of churches saying, what are we doing? Why are we here? Who do we think we're serving? How are we doing that?

A lot of key questions, but also for parents, because parents are the ones who really have the biblical responsibility for raising that child to have a biblical worldview. Now, knowing that only 2% of the parents of children, under the age of 13 have a biblical worldview. You can't give what you don't have. So they don't have it. The church needs to be supporting those parents. But if the church leaders don't have it either,

then we're really in trouble. Well, you know, tragically, and I love academia. I could have been a professional student if the Lord would have given me permission. But he didn't give me that permission. It was my wife who stopped me. What stopped you? A late night session in the library in God.

Okay. That's even better. I had spent weeks working on a paper on a topic that was so minute that there weren't 50 people in a 300-mile radius that could have a discussion. And I heard the Lord say, is that really what you're going to spend your life doing? And so I had to make an adjustment.

But having said that, the assignment is to lead change. That's the point of the church. We have a message about transformation. But the authority for that comes from the Word of God. Now, the good news, I suppose, is both Scripture and the history of the church is about these points of renewal. And they usually come from points of great devastation, or at least when there is an absence of that. And I think we are squarely in one of those seasons. It happens to also be an election year.

And I think Christians have this rather idolatry. view that we can elect someone who will make us Christian again. I wish that were true. I would go into politics. Well, let me tell you. I bet in politics. That's how I got started in all of this. I used to manage political campaigns.

Did polling for many, many candidates, have degrees, advanced degrees in political science. It's not the solution. Never will be the solution. And right now, Sadly, as you say, a lot of Christians, surprisingly, believe that politics will be the thing that will bring us back to biblical morality or a better culture. And it can't. I mean, right now, we can't even rely on politics to bring unity to us because we are so deeply divided in our core beliefs, our fundamental elements of our worldview.

that until we bring that together, which is a spiritual dimension, not a political dimension, politics will follow the spirit. And so we've got to work with that first. Earlier this week, I put out a little report where I talked about our most recent study looking at some of these things. And one of the things that I didn't go into detail in the report on is what we were finding is that Christianity, is moving into a period of invisibility in America. We've got 66% of all adults who call themselves Christians, only 3% of whom I think the Lord would characterize as disciples of Jesus.

3%. Well, when we look generationally at what's happening with worldview, which is, of course, the basis of becoming a disciple, what we find is with each succeeding generation we're losing ground and so it went from boomers boomers right now 8% have a biblical worldview gen x 5% millennials 4% the youngest generation right now around 2% 8 to 12 year olds they're at 1%

will that grow not unless we do something different in fact if we continue doing what we're doing, that may drop below 1%. And so we're moving to this point where the average American person has circles of relationships and circles of influencers. And as we're projecting ahead to what's going to happen, the average American will have circles of relationships and influence where there won't be a single person with a biblical worldview in either of those circles. And so how is the church going to grow?

How are people going to be saved? How are people going to become who God made them to be when there's no shaping influence from disciples of Jesus around them? And then what will happen is because there isn't that kind of influence, that voice representing the things of God. It's going to be incredibly easy for the elites of the country to take away the rights, the religious rights of all Americans. and so we'll no longer have the opportunity to read the Bible in our private spaces.

We won't have the opportunity to come together publicly to worship God. We won't have an opportunity to speak publicly about the things that we believe about Jesus, about sin, about righteousness. And so if we think it's dark now, we're on a path to move into even greater darkness. The antidote is to recognize that to see. disciples make disciples. If 3% of the American population right now qualify as disciples, based on my research, only God knows, I'm just trying to estimate what's going on so that we can do what we need to do to serve him well. But if that's accurate, it's based on the six things that Jesus said in Scripture.

This is what makes a disciple. Just measuring those things, if we're at 3%, we can grow that number with just 3%. but that 3% has to hear the call of God on their life saying you are here to make disciples you know not to puff me up but I mean this is so serious to me I just told my two biggest clients I'm not renewing my contract with you why because I need to stay home I need to be with my grandchildren I need to disciple them so I'm willing to give up the money the influence all the stuff that comes with those opportunities in order to say, no, the biggest call on my life is to make disciples. We've all got to have that mentality, not because I said it, not because I'm doing it, but because that's what Jesus calls us to do.

Right. Well, I agree with you. I've been saying for a while, and I think I hear you saying something similar, the kitchen table is our first assignment. If we can't bring that biblical worldview to the people in our home, It's nonsense to look beyond that. Now, that's the hardest place, because those are the same people that see you kick the dog. And then it's hard to talk to them about faith and forgiveness and love. But if we can do that, use the sphere of influence God has given us at our kitchen table and then our holiday table with that expanded family.

That's a transformational process. That's better than having a huge following in the social media. This nameless mass of people. Sure. But that's also the hardest place in the world, I think, to lead with your faith. But, you know, you go to First Peter, I'm sorry, First Timothy 3, verse 5, where he says, look, if you can't do it with your family, what makes you think you're going to do it in the culture? No, I understand. You know, so, yeah, you're absolutely right.

And, of course, one of the challenges we have is that parents don't have the spiritual development of their children on their agenda. When I did all the research for my new book, you know, raising spiritual champions, we did seven. new research projects just for that book because I wanted to make sure that parents understand the totality of the condition here. And one of the things we discovered is that parents love their kids. They have an agenda for their kids. Their work and the agenda. But when we looked at it, it was an agenda for their academic achievement, their athletic achievement, their relationships, their health, you know, all of these different things, spiritual development. wasn't on the list.

Less than 10% of the parents of children under the age of 13 today have a plan for the spiritual development of their children. And if you don't have a plan, it's not going to happen. It doesn't happen spontaneously. It's not going to merge randomly. You've got to be thinking very intentionally and strategically. What am I going to do to raise my child to be a spiritual champion in a culture that's going to ridicule my child for it?

in a culture where my friends will persecute me for doing that with my child. And yet, God calls me to do it. I have no choice. What's the plan? Well, the biblical language for it is to train your child. And that's an intentional, systematic, incremental. It's not random or accidental, and it certainly doesn't just evolve. No, no.

And, you know, in the book, I tell parents, okay, first of all, you've got to understand that this is your highest priority in life. Not because I'm writing this book, God already wrote a book where he put that in there and he said this is your highest priority. So secondly, then, you've got to make the commitment. And then once you make the commitment, you've got to develop a plan. Now, what's going to go into the plan? Number one, think about the beliefs that you want to teach your children, be very specific about those beliefs. It's not just, yeah, believe good stuff, believe the happy talk. No, no, no, it's got to be specific things. Secondly, then, you've got to have a plan for once you start talking with them about those beliefs, how are you going to teach them to translate those beliefs

into a lifestyle? And then once you've done that, how are you going to evaluate how your child's doing? You've got to be there to measure, are they growing in their relationship with Christ? Are they growing in their knowledge of the scriptures? Are they growing in their capacity to influence the world for him by the way that they're choosing to live. How are you going to do that? And part of that, I encourage them, is ask them to evaluate your walk with the Lord. Because if you're blowing it, understand you're their chief role model. One of the things I found in the research we did is that kids today don't trust their parents to help them develop their worldview. And we asked them why. They said, well, I listen to my parents and I watch my parents. I hear him say one thing,

but then they do something else. And I said, well, what difference does that make to you? And they said, well, it tells me that my parents are just as confused as I am. So why should I listen to them? Why should I look to them for guidance when they're still trying to figure it out? I say, so where are you going to go? Who isn't confused? And what I basically heard was them saying, well, the media, you know, the movies I watch,

the TV shows I watch, the music I listen to, the video games I play, the social media sites I go to, they're always. consistent in their message. I'm thinking, of course they are, because the TV show only has to be consistent for 24 minutes. Your parents have to do it 24-7. It's a very different expectation, a very different challenge. But parents have to understand, you know what, it's not just about telling your kids what to believe. It's about showing them what it looks like in practice. We can do this, but we've got to be committed to it. So if I'm listening to you, and I'm a pastor, and I've been doing this for decades

with a high priority on children and students and families. And I'm not a newcomer to your data and your thought. It's still different being at the table with you. So I'm trying to climb outside the box a little bit. We're going to have to resource families differently. We're going to have to come to church and speak differently. We're going to have to acknowledge the elephant in the room, the pressures on family, to deconstruct a biblical notion of family,

to tear away the roles that the Bible would hand us. and come back and help families reinforce that, have the courage to talk about it. Does that seem, I mean, you're the data expert. I'm a country preacher, but that feels like what you're describing to me. You're my guy, you're getting it. Yeah.

I mean, you know, what I encourage churches to do is to say you're going to have to make some changes. And some of them are going to be confusing to people. Some of them will be painful for people, including staff. you know, because what we really need to do, I believe, is reorient our emphasis, our focus within the church. We don't want to ignore adults. Adults are very important to God. So, yeah, we want to minister to them.

We want to bless them. We want to love them. We want to grow them. But first and foremost, recognize that the Lord tells us we're in a war. And we're losing the war because we're not raising up warriors. We're raising up pansies, spiritual pansies. And so we're going to have to get tough. And we're going to have to say, okay, a lot more of our resources, our money, our space, our programs, our teaching, our evaluate, everything is going to be geared to what's happening with our young kids.

And secondly, that means that our responsibility to adults isn't to keep preaching and teaching about stuff to them unless it's going to help them with what they're doing in the home to try to raise those children. Now, that should also help them to become better disciples. Right, absolutely. Because the better a disciple they become, the better a disciple they can raise in their home. But, yeah, it's a complete reorientation of what we're doing in ministry. I even go so far as to suggest, stop counting your adult attendance. You know, we go to pastors conferences. I pastor churches, too.

And what do we do? We say, how many you have? You know, it doesn't matter. you know if we're going to count anything let's start counting how many children are coming but not even how many are coming but how many of them give evidence of being serious about growing as a disciple that's all that matters and so everything that we can do to help parents do that we are there if we're the local church we're only there as a support to parents as they're raising those children and Our success is based completely on their success.

So what we've got to be doing is giving them everything possible to make them successful at disciplining their children. Amen, I agree. I'm down the rabbit hole with you all the way. But we have some fundamental problems for my lifetime. The church has been primarily focused. I mean, the evangelical church on a gospel of salvation. You get born again and you got your ticket, then now's kind of your life.

And if you want to give God a little time or a little money, so be it. But it really hasn't been an invitation to lay down your life. And what you're talking about is that because it changes. Every season of your life comes with a set of responsibilities that are kind of unique to that season. When your children are young, it's a high commitment. But as grandparents, we're in a season in our life where we fall into that category. And grandparents want to be heroes. We want our grandkids to love us.

We want to be the great benevolent gift giver, the experience creator. And what you're talking about is rewriting that role. Because now we're going to challenge them to grow and become. And we may have to do it without full parental support always. Because families are struggling and they're not all completely unified all the way around. That's a courageous response. that's not a passive response. Yeah, it's only courageous

if you don't really understand the Christian faith. Yeah, that's true. I mean, if I understand that someday I'm going to stand before a holy righteous, omnipotent God who is going to ask me about

what I did with every resource he ever gave to me, every minute of my life. And more Disney visits won't get me brownie points? That would all drain my bank account. You know, I mean, knowing that the response that I want is well done good and faithful servant and not congratulations, you are happy.

It means that I've got to live a completely different life than what most American Christians are geared to living. And it means that I'm going to be put down by a lot of my friends at church, which I am. You know, and I'm going to be the subject. of some mean comments from pastors across the country. I know I am all the time. I get it. And you know what?

It doesn't matter because I'm playing to an audience of one who has given me the charge of taking care of my children and my grandchildren. And then when I can move beyond that, other people whom he puts in my path, great. And if I do a great job at that, I'm more comfortable. I'm not secure in knowing, but I'm more comfortable thinking maybe he'll say, well done, good, and faithful. And I still blow it a bunch of times.

But, I mean, that's got to be my mentality. I can't be worried about all the other stuff that our culture is driving us to. Right now, the culture is influencing the Christian church, more than the Christian church is influencing the culture. So with that in mind, I can't take my cues from the culture. I can't even take my cues from the church. I've got to take my cues directly from God through His Word. Which implies you have to read it amongst some other things. Amen.

I won't ask for the data on that. It would be discouraging. But this isn't surprising to me because we've been training our theology schools for decades. You know, I studied at some of the most elite schools theoretically. And they were, for the most part, godless places. I was going to say, don't get me started on my soapbox about seminaries and Bible colleges because, I mean, just in brief, I think they are the things that are most harmful to American society today. That particular institution has pushed the dominoes down, and they're just

destroying the church in America. And so, yeah, I'm not a big fan. And I see the same problem now with Christian schools and universities, because they've capitulated, but the family send their students there because they think they're getting a good Christian education. And we're, we're galvanizing in the hearts of those students compromise and inconsistency and that they can wrap it in Christianity and it's okay. To me, it almost feels more destructive than putting them in a secular environment. And so you're going to have to battle for your faith in this because they go in with their defenses down and they come out the other end of the system with this jaded view of what Christianity is.

it's very destructive. I've had the opportunity to teach it four universities, Christian universities, and three seminaries. And I gave it all up because I thought this is utter nonsense. When I look at what's going on behind the curtain,

even in front of the curtain sometimes, it's craziness. I'm at Arizona Christian University now because I finally found a place that understands worldview is what we've got to do. we can't stray from that. But the only reason we do that is because we've been called to make cultural warriors

who are going to go out and transform the culture with God's truth. And that's how they're gauging success, not how many kids go to Harvard Law after they graduate and that kind of thing. But you're right? I mean, it's few and far between that you're able to find an institution, Christian institution, that really understands what we're supposed to be doing to train up kids in the way they should go so that they can live that kind of life.

Okay. There's good news in the midst of all of this. The statistics are not encouraging, but you can't get healthier until you get an accurate diagnosis. So I'm not in favor of the churches who want to deliver a message that is predominantly grace. I believe in grace. If you look grace up, you'll find my picture. But I think the message has to begin with truth.

It's like going to a doctor that only wants to give you good news. That's called malpractice. and if all the church does is say smile and be happy, we're not helping people. But both historically and biblically, they're not separate, but God doesn't need a majority. The truth has an authority in and of itself. And if we, in relatively small numbers, choose the truth, then we get the multiplier of Almighty God. So we can have a sense of great hope for the future. I'm not completely out of bounds on that, right?

You're the keeper of the statistics. No, it really is about that commitment. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that my data is right, that only 3% of adults qualify biblically, currently, as disciples. That's fine. You can start a movement, which then becomes a revolution with 3%. You build that momentum through the intensity of your commitment to the cause that your pursuing the cause that you represent, the passion that you bring to the table. 3%, my goodness, you look at the gay community in America.

When they started out, they were less than 1% of the population. You look at what's happened as a result of that 1% being totally committed to a lie, to a deception, and you see what changes, what transformation they've brought about in our culture. Can we do that when we represent the... truth, when we represent light, when we've got three times as many to start with as they have, it's not about numbers. It's about the intensity of the passion. If we can bring that to the table, you're going to see some magnificent things happen. Absolutely. A line I've used a lot, I think it's appropriate here. The problem isn't the depravity of the wicked. It's the ambivalence

of the faithful. Amen. And if we'll make, if we'll push all our chips into the middle of the table, God will make the difference. Dr. Barna, thank you. You have been a light to many. You've been a light in my life. The rest of them, I let's speak for themselves. But I thank you for your hard work and your diligence. It's a hopeful message.

You know, people say, oh gosh, you're so negative. I say, no, I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist. And you can't become an optimist unless you're a realist. And so if we know what we're up against, if we know what we have to work with, we're going to win. Because we can think strategically, we can behave strategically. We can do this.

We got the power of God behind us for goodness sakes. How can we lose? We only lose if we're not willing to do what he called us to do. Amen. Let's start stacking up some wins. I like it. I like it. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Wow. Dr. Barner gave us a truckload of things in the what we can do category. And what I loved about it is they're all within reach. You don't need a Ph.D. You don't need the church to go be different. You need the pastor to be more anointed. He handed every one of us, no matter what life season you're in,

some things we can do in a very practical way. Parents with young children, we have an assignment to train our children in godliness. And that's a heavy lift. It's going to be countercultural. Disney isn't going to help. And in fact, Nickelodeon's not going to pitch in much either. But you and I can do that. If your children are older and you missed that window,

I'll remind you something the scripture says. It says that a day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. What that tells me is if I missed a window of opportunity in some life season, that God can redeem the time and give me an opportunity to make that impact in another season of my life. So I don't want to hand you a sense of guilt and shame

if you missed a window in the lives of your children. Maybe they're adults now, and you didn't give them that godly perspective. A lot of reasons contributed to that. It's not too late. Begin to pray. Ask God for the opportunity to let your love for the Lord become a transformational part of your children's lives.

If you're a grandparent, you have grandchildren, you're not just a happy, benevolent giver of gifts. You're a transformational voice, a generational difference. Sometimes it'll even bring some conflict. Parents may not be as on board as you are. And you'll have to navigate that with some love and grace and mercy. But Dr. Barnah gave us a very clear conviction for our schools. We're the protector of the children in our schools, our public schools, our Christian schools.

Pornography in elementary children's schools is wrong. And we've got to have the courage to say that. We can't just imagine somebody else will care for this generation. It starts at our kitchen table. It'll extend to our holiday table. But at the end of the day, if you will use your voice, God will expand your influence. We don't have to have the majority. a handful of people with the authority of truth and almighty God behind us, we can change our world.

That's why I'm doing these podcasts, and I pray that's why you're listening. Let's begin to say to God, God, I'll raise my hand through my life and my voice, bring your change to the people around me. I'll be excited to hear the reports. Hey, thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic too. If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Alan Jackson Ministry's YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith and change our culture.

I'll see you next time.