Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - The War on Faith & Family [Featuring Dr. Ben Carson]

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Suppressing religious freedom, redefining the family unit, and indoctrinating the next generation—we see these destructive practices happening all around us. In this episode, world-renowned Pediatric Neurosurgeon and former U.S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Dr. Ben Carson, joins Pastor Allen to discuss the need for God's people to have courage and not compromise on biblical truths. Watch to understand what you can do to stand up for the nuclear family, gender roles, and our children's future.More Information: We Must Protect the Children | Special Guest Dr. Ben Carson: https://www.youtube.com/live/Rju1Kfpa_rE?si=SYH2p7YBJV4t-GJQ Let Your Faith Change the Culture | Special Guest Dr. Ben Carson: https://www.youtube.com/live/lksbJCrHBx0?si=3cjcW093sR2e-Qvr__ It’s up to us to bring God’s truth back into our culture. It may feel like an impossible assignment, but there’s much we can do. Join Pastor Allen Jackson as he discusses today’s issues from a biblical perspective. Find thought-provoking insight from Pastor Allen and his guests, equipping you to lead with your faith in your home, your school, your community, and wherever God takes you. Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3JsyO6ysUVGOIV70xAjtcm?si=6805fe488cf64a6d Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culture-christianity-the-allen-jackson-podcast/id1729435597

Well, welcome to culture and Christianity. My guest today, it's just an amazing interview with Dr. Ben Carson. He's retired now, but he's a pediatric neurosurgeon, extraordinary training, extraordinary medical career. And when he retired from that, has had the courage to step into public service, which has been a remarkable demonstration. I think you're going to enjoy it. We talked about everything from public health to vaccines to the women. issues, the roles of women, Dr. Carson's insight and courage and is willing to take a place in the public square. He's currently serving as the vice chair to the Religious Liberty Commission appointed by President Trump. I believe he will inspire you, encourage you, and remind us that courage is required of every generation, that we cannot afford just to live off the courage of those who preceded us, that we're going to have to decide that there is right and wrong and that we will stand up for what's right and that that's not about our biological sex or our age, that's about our determination to do the right thing. I think you'll enjoy Dr. Carson. It cuts through a lot of

the clutter and helps us, I think, arrive at a place that gives us a clear pathway and forward. Enjoy the conversation. Dr. Carson, welcome back. Culture and Christianity. It's very good to have you back in Tennessee. Well, it's always good to be here with you. We appreciate your ministry. Well, it is an honor to have you back in our church. You know, for a retired person, you're hard to keep up with. Well, I'm not really retired. You know, I've tried to retire a couple of times, and it's become clear to me that retirement is reserved for heaven.

I think you're right. I think if we're willing, God continues to give us assignments. Absolutely. So you're not practicing medicine these days. No, I left the operating room 12 years ago now. 13 years ago now. And I do miss it. I miss the sanctity of the operating room.

Because it was, when you went in there, you only had to worry about one person. And we turned the classical music on and relax. And it was a wonderful time until you came back out. Well, you are the founder of the American Cornerstone Institute. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, well, when I retired from the first Trump administration, I intended to retire. I failed the first time and ended up in government,

so I said this time I'm going to get it right. But, you know, seeing the direction of the country, I realized that I could have no fun playing golf and cruising around the world, watching the country go down the tube. So myself and some other very, very, talented people from HUD got together and created the American Cornerstone Institute, which focuses

on the Cornerstone principles that made us into a great country. It wasn't a coincidence that we rose from nowhere to the pinnacle of the world. It was faith which taught us so much about God's love and how we relate to each

other. To love your neighbor, not to cancel your neighbor if they have a different yard sign. It was liberty. Real freedom to lead the life that you wanted to lead as long as you didn't interfere with other people. Community, the sense of being able to work together and understanding the concept of the common good, a phrase that was used by many of our founders very frequently. And life, respect for life from the womb to the tomb.

And then, of course, we had a pediatric component called Little Patriots, where we teach the children those basic principles, and we teach them our history as a country. The good, the bad, and the ugly. But if you're honest, there's a heck of a lot more good than there is bad. And we also have an executive branch for America program in which we teach people the fundamentals of government,

particularly the executive branch and how it works, including live interviews from people like Newt Gingrich. Sarah Huckabee Sanders conducts all the interviews. We have My American Story in which we interview people who've come from socialist and communist environments, and they tell us about what we need to be looking out for and the dangers that they're seeing already in our society. So there's a whole plethora of white papers

and other things, it'll keep you entertained for a long time, American Cornerstone.org. Well, as you were listing those principles that had brought such strength to our nation, it seems to me that we've been pretty busy for a season now, setting them aside, like common sense things that have outcomes attached to them that have been really positive. You're very smart. How do you explain that we would set aside something that's been so beneficial?

I think there are forces at work, forces for good and forces for evil. And I'm assuming you don't mean Republican and Democrat. No, not Republican or Democrat. But, you know, we have completely illogical things going on as we try to, as some forces try to indoctrinate our kids. and remove from them any sense of patriotism. Take little children who are suggestible and confuse them about their gender, about whether there's really any difference between males and females,

that it's okay for men to play in women's sports and to be in their locker rooms. Just crazy stuff like that. You couple that with the cultural war on the traditional nuclear family, which is made fun of, and the fact that we as a society have denigrated the whole process of marriage. People aren't getting married. They're getting married late. They're not having children.

All of the fundamental building blocks of a strong society. and we're starting to see the consequences of those things. Do you have the imagination we can reverse it? Well, that's a very good question. Can we reverse it? Recognizing that the Bible says in the latter times, this is what's going to happen. So that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight against it.

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything that we can to help people see the light and to save as many people as possible. It seems a little bit to me like we were laughing a bit about aging and how there's some humility that brings to us. And while we forfeit some of the physical strength we have in our youth, we still have a responsibility to give enough attention to our health to make us as productive as we can be. Absolutely. Seems like a similar discussion to me.

We've got some biblical acknowledgement that the things will intensify as we get to the end of the age. But we can't capitulate. No, all we have to do is what is right. I think about the three Hebrew boys, Shedrak, Meshach, and Abindigo. They would not bow down to the golden image. And as a result, they were to be thrown into the fiery furnace. And they said to the king, our God can save us. But even if he doesn't, we're still going to serve him.

and not you. And that indicated the level of faith that they had, that even if he didn't save them, he knew the beginning from the end. He knew what was best. And they had complete trust and faith in him. That's what we're going to have to have. In these last days, things are going to get kind of hairy.

In the book of Matthew, it says, if the time were not cut short, even the very elect would be deceived. That should make everybody humble. No one should think they know it all and that they've got it all under control. We have to stay on our knees and we have to seek guidance from God and work toward faith. And that will keep us safe. You mentioned those three Hebrew young men.

I think if we gave them coaching from the conventional wisdom of current American Christendom, we would have told them to bow down as an expression of tolerance and inclusivity, and they would want to build bridges with the culture they were in. Yeah, that compromise is what the Martin Church does. But it's not surprising. Because if you look at the congressional record from January 10, 1963, when Congressman Hurlon wrote the end of 45 goals of communism in America, one of them was to change the church from the true gospel to the social gospel

and to compromise the values and principles. And, you know, to take things like sexual perversion and make them normal, natural, and healthy, just basically turning everything upside down. And isn't that what Satan does? It is. Well, you said it so simply. You said we have to do what's right.

But even the notion that there is a right is so highly contested. Yes. You have so many people saying, your truth versus my truth versus their truth versus their. truth. And, you know, when there's no solid principle, which is what God gave us, he gave us solid principles, everybody becomes their own God. They make their own rules. Unfortunately, they don't have ultimate power. And in the long run, their rules don't matter. Amen.

You've flourished in academia. You spent many years in training in those environments. And I think one of the great weaknesses we have to now is, for the most part, our higher educational systems are without God. Have you got any suggestions on how we walk that back? Well, you know, it's interesting when you look at some of our premier institutions, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia. You know, Emory, they all started out as religious schools with the main purpose being to produce ministers, men of the cloth. And they're the ones who've strayed the furthest away from it.

And, you know, I think courage is the key to fighting it. I've been going on a lot of college campuses lately. with Turning Point USA. And, you know, it used to be the crowds were very small, and only a few people were brave enough to really stick their neck out. Now we have very large groups of people coming out, and they're wearing their American flags. And they are bullish about their patriotic.

and their love of God. And I think it's spectacular. You look at Auburn University and all those young people who got baptized. Same thing at Ohio State. And, you know, I shouldn't say anything good about Ohio State because I went to Michigan. But the spirit got them too. The cross is sufficient, even for Ohio State. That's right.

So are you doing those Q&A sessions with Charlie on those campuses? I do some things with Charlie on it, but mostly I do it on my own. That's awesome. Well, President Trump has appointed you. I believe you're the vice chair of the Religious Liberty Commission. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is all about? Well, you know, we've noticed that religious liberty has been under assault.

You probably remember the case of the peaceful protesters in front of an abortion clinic who were arrested and put in jail. They weren't impeding anybody's access or egress. They were praying and singing hymns and talking about the love of God for everyone, including unborn babies. And then you are aware of the situation where the FBI labeled Catholic parents who were just interested in what was being taught in the school as potential terrorist. Even individuals like myself, the Southern Poverty Leadership Conference, labeled me a terrorist. They got so much pushback that they took it down. But, you know, these are legitimate organizations in our society. And President Trump felt that it was important for us to examine all the federal agencies

and all the things that are going on in our society that are antithetical to freedom of religion, which is so critical to all of our other freedoms. You know, it's mentioned in the very First Amendment. to the Constitution to give a sense of the importance of that. And if we can't believe what we want to believe, what was the point of America? Absolutely. Well, in President Trump's first administration, you served as the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. So now you have a new assignment.

What have you learned about working inside the government system? Well, I see that there's a lot of good people there who have good hearts, and there are a lot of people who are not that. And, you know, it's very important to sort of figure out who's who, if you want to get things done. But again, you know, I lay that in the hands of the good Lord to help you find good people. the right people to work with, and it makes a big difference. And there are a lot of good people whose hearts are in the right place who really want our system to work. And, you know, our biggest enemy, quite frankly, is the media, the mainstream media.

They take things and they distort them, and they withhold appropriate information. and they spread things that are inappropriate and keep repeating them to try to make people believe that they're true. And it's really sad because freedom of the press, again mentioned in the First Amendment, was so vital to the success of our nation. And the reason the press was held in such high esteem is because they were supposed to disseminate information to the people. people that was unbiased so that the country could be run on the will of the people. But how will the people know what their will is if they're given inappropriate information on which to formulate an opinion?

And, you know, when they put their thumb on the scale, and in this case, their whole foot on the scale, it really distorts the information that people are getting. And I talk to young journalists all the time, and I say, you can be on the forefront. of those who have the integrity to make the press something that the people can trust once again. Leading with our faith is often not easy. You know, you're in a business setting. How do you start a conversation? Or you're with family, and maybe it's awkward to bring faith forward,

or maybe it's children, and you're not sure how to get to it on their level. We've got a tool that we think will help you. They're conversation cards. They're designed to help you lead with your faith in those different settings. Whether you share them with somebody else or you use them as fuel for your own imagination, I believe with those cards and the help of the Holy Spirit, we can all lead with our faith more effectively. I'm excited about the outcomes.

We created our new Lead with Faith conversation starter cards to help you move past surface level conversations so you can get to know the people around you in a more meaningful way. When you donate $25 or more today, you can request a set of conversation cards that include one for your family, one for your gatherings with friends, and another to use young children. Request your set of Lead with Faith Conversation starter cards today at Alanjaxon.com. Well, I think the deterioration of trust, certainly the media is a part of it, but for me, post-COVID, I think one of the consequences of COVID was the deterioration of trust in so many places that previously, I had held the great, the CDC.

Right. I held in the highest esteem until we got to that window in time when it seemed like Dr. Fauci and his crew were making it up day to day. But it wasn't limited to them. I'd roll the church into that bucket as well. I trusted the church in a way that I didn't. I never imagined we would just capitulate. Well, I was very disappointed with the medical profession because many people in the medical profession knew that some of the things that were being said weren't true. They were saying, like, natural immunity is not going to be particularly helpful,

and it only lasts for a few weeks. Now, doctors know better than that. And yet, you know, they just kind of went along with the whole thing and went along with the force mandates and saying this was critical. I just kind of ashamed of them for having done that. Now, there were a number who, spoke out and they were banished. They were punished in many different ways.

They were made fun of. And I give those people a lot of credit. And I'm glad to see some of them have taken up positions in the administration. Like Dr. Bata Cheria, the head of NIH now. And Marty McCarrie, head of the FDA, these are good people. and I'm really glad to see them stepping up to the plate here. I think it's going to make a big difference, but it's still going to take a while before people trust the public health system again.

And transparency is really the key. You know, when you're dealing with COVID, you know, there were places in the world where there was very little COVID, you know, like the western coast of Africa. and if we were really trying to control it rather than trying to control the population, we would have said, what is going on in the West Coast of Africa?

Why are they having so few cases of this disease? And we would have discovered that it's because they take hydroxychloroquine as an anti-malarial. And we would have said, hmm, maybe this is not the horrible thing that some people say it. is and it's been used for over 60 years and we know how to use it safely and it seems to prevent this disease.

Same thing with ivermectin. But instead of doing that, you know, they said, no, no, no, these things are horrible. This is horse serum. You know, people can't take this. And think how many lives could have been saved. Hundreds of thousands of lives that could have been saved. So there's good reason for the people to be skeptical now. And, you know, it spread, unfortunately, to the arena of vaccinations.

You know, proven vaccinations, MMR, things like that. People are not getting them as they should. We've had an outbreak of measles. It had some deaths from that unnecessarily. So it's important that we get messages out that all vaccines are not bad. Some are very good and have made an enormous difference in the public health of our nation.

You know, the ideas are related to me. We were lamenting the deterioration of trust in the media, which has pushed a lot of people to the Internet. Right. And you can go on the Internet and find, find somebody arguing in behalf of anything. Anything under the sun. Right.

And if you get your health care off the internet, I think it's a pretty risky place. It's a very risky place. I mean, you can go on the internet and you can see me, an AI image of me, advertising everything from blood cleansers to ED formulas. I mean, it was just ridiculous. And I can't do anything about it. because I'm a public figure. So there are vaccines that are very important for us.

Some are critical. And, you know, we need to just stop and look at the facts. The COVID vaccine was put together very hurriedly. It was an emergent situation, admittedly, because people didn't have immunity to it because they hadn't been exposed to it before. And they did a yeoman's job of getting a vaccine. but every iteration of the virus was less virulent than the one before it.

And you always have to weigh the benefits versus the risk of the medication or the vaccine. And if you see the vaccine getting weaker and the complications from the vaccine remaining significant, at some point those lines cross where it becomes less beneficial to take the vaccine than to catch the virus. Right now, the COVID virus is about equivalent to a common cold, and yet you still have people pushing the vaccine. If I remember, you had COVID early, when you were still unknown and very, very... I had it early on. It was very serious. I was pretty sure I was going to. to die. And I was fortunately able to get the monoclon antibody before it was approved by the FDA because President Trump signed a bunch of papers and I was able to get it. He always reminds me he

saved my life. I can imagine that. What about the current version of Maha? Well, the concept behind Maha is good. Make America healthy again. It costs a lot less to prevent stuff than it does to treat stuff. And we need to get ahead of that curve. And you know, you look at the fact that so many of our people have chronic diseases. And we don't see that level of these chronic diseases in other industrialized countries. But they have much stricter rules in terms of what you can put into the food. And I think Maha is looking at those

things very carefully. And we're looking really at the very inception of where our food comes from. In the agricultural realm, what are we putting into the soil? What are we putting on plants

and trees that produce the food that we eat? And looking at better ways to transport fresh produce so that we don't have to infest it with all of these chemicals. I think it will make a big difference. And I think that has an impact also on what's going on with our children.

We have so many diagnosis of ADHD and autism spectrum disorder to a much higher degree than most other industrialized countries. And it's probably multifactorial, but I think what's going into the digestive system has something to do with it. Well, it's at least refreshing to be having a public discourse about how we can be healthier

and use fewer pharmaceuticals. No question about it. And I'm glad to see people getting serious about it. And I think it will make a long, a big difference for us because it's a combination, I think, of what we eat, the fact that we don't have nurturing environments for a lot of our children.

We're bombarding them with messages and social media that are not helpful. It's got to be hard growing up as a kid these days. In an environment like that, if you don't have parents who are really digging into this stuff and trying to prevent you from being contaminated with a lot of stuff and making sure that they substitute good things in your life. Absolutely. We're of close enough in age.

We grew up in a similar time, and there were some failures in our culture. from expressions of racism, I mean, those widely documented. But there's abundant evidence that as glaring as some of those weaknesses were, they didn't prevent opportunities. I'm concerned for the younger people today. I think they face challenges that could be even more debilitating. Well, you're always going to have problems with people as long as there's a Satan around to stimulate weak minds.

But there was a time in my life when there was a lot of racism. I remember the first trip I made to Tennessee when I was six years old. I remember seeing the whites only and colors only signs. And people saying what that meant and how you need to be careful before you can return to Detroit. But in Detroit, there was another type of race. racism, racism of low expectations, which was really just as devastating. But in that very same lifetime, you have black admirals and generals and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and heads of foundations and university presidents.

We've had a black president of the United States. You know, when you stop and you think about that kind of change in a society and that short a period of time, It says a lot about America. It says a lot about the resilience of America. And the other thing that's so important is that people don't become victims. The best way to become a victim is to believe you are a victim and to start acting like a victim, which was something that my mother never allowed. She never became a victim.

she would not let us be victims. There was never a such thing as a good excuse. You just did what you're supposed to do. You got it accomplished, and you didn't make excuses about it. And when you adopt that type of an attitude, there's very little that can stop you. I've heard you talk about your mom before she was a force. She was probably the wisest person that I ever knew. She didn't have much in a way of formal education.

but she knew what was right and she had tremendous faith in God. And I am convinced that my life would have turned out very differently without her. Absolutely. One of my favorite moments on television ever was watching you on The View. You were gentle, unrelenting strength, silenced that group of people. Well, you know, it was interesting when I first went on the set and they took me into Whoopi's dressing room and she was like, what is this conservative doing in my? She was like melting down. By the end of the program, she hugged me. Well, it was refreshing because you didn't have to meet their anger and all the emotions. with an equal expression of anger.

You did it with a dignity and a strength. Before our eyes kind of neutralized that, it was truly remarkable. Well, you know, I had a lot of practice with some of the people on some of those house hearings, particularly when we were talking about transgender's and women's shelters. And, you know, five, six years ago, that was a big issue. People think that it's just a big issue now.

It was a big issue then, too. And, you know, I was concerned about everybody's rights, including all of those women who said they didn't want to be in the shelter if there were men in there. No matter what they called themselves, they were men. And they didn't want to be in there. Some of them said they'd rather sleep out in the snow in the woods than to be in there. Nobody's looking out for their rights.

It's all about the transgenders. So that was something that I was not going to relent on. I think we had a landmark decision this week when the Supreme Court upheld the Tennessee law regarding children and the transgender issues. And that is so important. I'm glad the state of Tennessee was willing to. to go to bat on that and not to capitulate. Because children have immature brains.

That's why God gave them parents to protect them. And that's the reason that a lot of these people go behind the backs of the parents and try to influence these very vulnerable children. And, you know, just because the little girl put on her daddies, tool belt doesn't mean that she wants to be a boy. Just because the little boy tried on his mother's high hill doesn't mean he wants to be a girl. And there's really a little girl fighting to come out. But you take a suggestible child and you tell them, that's what it means.

And it's the only way you're ever going to be happy. And, you know, a mature person would just, yeah, right, throw that in the garbage camp. But a suggestible kid, oh, really? Is that? And the wheels start churning, and then you do more things to encourage that kind of activity. And then you have books about it and you expose those children to them. Their poor parents don't even know. You tell them to keep it away from their parents.

It's child abuse. It is. It's as simple as that. And I'm delighted that the Supreme Court recognizes. that at least some of them do. You know, I agree. I celebrated the Supreme Court's ruling, and I was grateful for President Trump when he said marriage was between a man and a woman. And that there are only two sexes.

That there's only two sexes. But I was embarrassed and ashamed that those messages have to come from political leaders. It seems to me those messages should be resounding from every pulpit, from everybody that sits in a pew. you know, the moral fabric of our country, if we relegated to the politicians, we're in real trouble. There's no question about it. And when you stop and you think back to the American Revolution,

and you think about 1831 when Alexis de Tocqueville came to this country, ostensibly the study our penal system. But he said, well, while I'm here, why don't I look at everything? And the thing that impressed them the most was not our system of checks and balances, which really impressed them, was not our system of education, which really blew them away, was not the business environment that encouraged entrepreneurship. And the thing that really got them were the churches. and those fiery sermons that he heard from those pulpits that encouraged a rag-tank bunch of militiamen to the point that they defeated the most powerful military force on earth

and gave the people a moral basis. Amen. It made all the difference in the world. So maybe while we're praying for renewed trust in our health care system, and we can pray for some renewed vitality in the church. I would love to see that. You know, more young men are coming back to the church.

They are. The young women not quite as much. I think we have more work to do there because with the feminine movement, there was so much distortion. of the role of women and how important they are. And basically they were told that they're not that important unless they're in the sea suite of some company.

Raising a family in motherhood, you know, that's for the wimpy women. And I think a lot of that got inculcated into that generation. And until we get to the point where we help people to realize that there's really no calling that is more important than that of a mother in raising children, that's not to say that the father's role isn't very important. But, you know, the mother, there's something very special there about that relationship. Absolutely. You and I both benefited from strong mothers. Absolutely. It makes all the difference in the world.

And, you know, my wife, who had a Yale degree, a Johns Hopkins degree, said, you know, put career aside, and I'm going to take care of the kids. I can always go back to work after they're grown up. And it worked very well. And I don't think anybody would refer to Candy as a weak person. No, they would definitely not. Not twice. Excuse me. One of our goals on this podcast is always to leave the people listening with response to what we can do.

I think there's reasons for hope. And I think it will require the involvement of all of us. So if you could put an invitation in front of the people listening today, so they're not powerless. They're not caught in some machine or some spiritual conflict. We can make a difference. What would you suggest? I would say think about what happened at Fort McHenry in 1814.

During the War of 1812, the British were about to win. And one of the last places they had to conquer was the port of Baltimore. And they had all of their ships there, and they were going to level the place if they didn't take the American flag down and submit. And they said, we're not taking this flag down. And all through the night, they bombarded the place. And soldiers stood by that flag. They held up.

They were not going to let it by. Some of them died. But when dawn came, the flag was still there. And that's our history. That's who we are as people. And it requires courage. And you can't capitulate just because that seems to be what the present trend is. There's a right, there's a wrong, there are values, there are principles that were essential to the formation of this country.

And you have to be just as bold in proclaiming those as the tractors are who are trying to bury those things. and remember that you can't be the land of the free if you're not the home of the brave. I think that's such an important point. We can't be less determined than the adversaries of the gospel. Absolutely. And they counted us being timid.

And, you know, a lot of people don't want to be called a nasty name. They don't want to be canceled. They don't want their family to have any, potential problems. So they just shut their mouths. But what they have to recognize is when you open your mouth and you stand boldly, that gives permission for other people to do the same thing. And courage thrives on courage, and it will grow.

And just remember, in the 2020 election, 20 million evangelicals did not vote. We reverse that trend in 2024. What does that mean? That means people of faith in this country have the ability to control the agenda, but they can't keep receding back into the shadows and expecting somebody else to do it. Well, you described Francis Scott Key's experience with Baltimore. That's described in a great deal more detail in your book, The Periless Fight. Which, of course, comes from the Star-Spangled Banner.

Absolutely. It's a very encouraging book. If you are a bit overwhelmed with culture and the battle and all the things, I would recommend this. It will bring a note of hope. I'm assuming they can get it wherever books are sold. I think they can get it, or you can get it from Amazon or any of those places. Bezos needs our contribution. You need a bigger yacht.

That's right. Dr. Carson, you are an inspiration. I'm very grateful for your courage and your determined voice, and you do it in a way that shows us that strength can be expressed with a gentleness, and I'm very appreciative of that. Well, Pastor, I'm appreciative of the fact that you have not capitulated to the social gospel, and you preach from the Word of God, and that's what we need. We all need that kind of strength to go forward with this fight.

You know, I live with this idea that one day we're going to see our friends from the pages of Scripture. And they're going to ask us what we did with our journey. And I don't think the Apostle Paul would be impressed that we were champions of tolerance and inclusivity. So I'm trying to prepare for some of those appointments that are, most of us are aware of the judgment. But I think if we were fortunate enough to be included in the kingdom, we're going to share our stories with that great cloud of witnesses that have preceded us. No question about it. I'm looking forward to that. Me too.

Thank you for being with us again. I hope you come see us again. Look forward to it. Hey, thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic too. If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Alan Jackson Ministries YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity Podcast. on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith and change our culture.

I'll see you next time.