Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast - Why Students Lose Faith [Featuring Ken Ham, Carol Swain, David Barton, Katie Gorka & Brian Mueller]

Episode Date: October 16, 2026

"The education system didn't collapse overnight, and it won't be rebuilt overnight. Katie Gorka, Dr. Carol Swain, Brian Mueller, Ken Ham, and David Barton join Pastor Allen Jackson to talk about Marxism in education, why a biblical worldview starts with the right foundation, and how the Church needs to step up for the next generation. Watch the full episode to find out what most churches are missing. — It’s up to us to bring God’s truth back into our culture. It may feel like an impossible assignment, but there’s much we can do. Join Pastor Allen Jackson as he discusses today’s issues from a biblical perspective.Find thought-provoking insight from Pastor Allen and his guests, equipping you to lead with your faith in your home, your school, your community, and wherever God takes you.Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3JsyO6ysUVGOIV70xAjtcm?si=6805fe488cf64a6dListen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culture-christianity-the-allen-jackson-podcast/id1729435597"Allen Jackson Ministries is the media ministry of World Outreach Church, an inter-denominational congregation located near Nashville, Tennessee. Our mission is to help people become more fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ. Pastor Allen Jackson has served as senior pastor of the church since 1989, and his biblical messages are broadcast to millions of people each day through radio, television, and the internet. Learn more about Allen Jackson Ministries: https://allenjackson.com/ Learn more about World Outreach Church: https://wochurch.org/ Find the latest ministry news, as well as letters and prayers from Pastor Allen on our prayers and updates page: https://allenjackson.com/prayers-and-updates/ Sign up for Pastor Allen’s daily devotional and receive encouragement in your email box every weekday morning: https://allenjackson.com/devo/ Support the ministry and help us continue to encourage and equip Christ-followers to be salt and light, exactly where God placed them: https://store.allenjackson.com/donate/give-now Subscribe for more content from Pastor Allen Jackson: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmJ_L35KPnDoIfzbe4sfRQA #pastorallenjackson #worldoutreachchurch Connect with Pastor Allen: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pastorallenjackson/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pastorallenjackson/ Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/PastorAllenJackson Connect with World Outreach Church: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wochurchtn Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wochurchtn/ Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/c-564313

Welcome to Culture and Christianity. By now, I suspect you know, we hosted a conference not long ago called Culture and Christianity. We think it's really important that our faith get outside the walls of the church, important enough that we do a podcast, we host conferences, we facilitate conversations with Christian leaders all over the country consistently. But we wanted to share part of the conference with you. We'll be sharing the seminar sessions over the course of the next few weeks. But at the end of each of those sections, we did a panel discussion. and they proved to be so fruitful, so valuable to us,

that we wanted to share those panel discussions with you as a part of this podcast. One of the segments we had was on education. And candidly, it was the most difficult segment for us to put together a speaker's list for because we really wrestled with what it was we wanted to accomplish and what we wanted to communicate and how we responded.

We didn't want to just bemoan and whine and complain about the failure of educational systems, whether it's at the college level or our public schools or our Christian schools. We really wanted to be something that was insightful and helped us learn. And I thought at the end of the day, the Lord really brought together an outstanding panel,

an outstanding group of presenters, all of whom were able to stay and participate in the panel. So you will meet Katie Gorka. Some of you know her husband from the media, Sebastian Gorka. Katie's been working with the Department of Education. They've done a presentation on American History and how important it is across all 50 states. This year is a part of our celebration of our American history, and she came and did a beautiful job.

Dr. Carol Swain came and was a presenter. If you're in Middle Tennessee, you may know her. She ran from the mayor of Nashville not long ago. She holds multiple advanced degrees. She has a JD. She has a Ph.D., she has a Ph.D., she was tenured faculty at Princeton, tenured faculty at Vanderbilt. Very, very accomplished. Understands education.

Became a Christian later in her life, was really unwelcomed at Princeton. because she became a Christ follower after she had earned her tenure as a Ph.D. faculty member there. Dr. Brian Mueller from Grand Canyon University. They actually reached out to us and wanted to be a part. They wanted to engage in the conversation. He's fascinating and has made a tremendous impact from Grand Canyon University. I think you'll enjoy him. Ken Ham came.

Ken is the president really responsible for the Ark exhibit in Kentucky and the Creation Museum. I loved Ken Ham because he built a stinking arc. I mean, you understand that puts him at odds with almost all the established scientific community. Ken doesn't just say, oh, I believe the ark is real. He built one and engaged the conversation and invites families and children and young people. The governor of Kentucky is ashamed of it. He won't even put it on the, it's the most visited attraction in Kentucky. and it's not in any of Kentucky's material to attract guests.

I loved Kenham and what he had to say. I think he will bless you. And then David Barton came. If you don't know David Barton and wall builders, you're missing out. David is simply a leading voice on American history. Together, they give us a perspective on education in America and why we should have hope and why we have to use our voices and why it matters, I believe the panel discussion will help you know how to respond in your

community. Enjoy. Our time is limited and I don't want to waste minutes, but I'm going to start off with a thank you. You told us some hard truth, but you did it in a way that I think brings some hope to the discussion if we choose to heed the truth that we say we believe. I heard you say so many things. Katie, you warned us about Marxism that it's not coming. it is in our educational system,

entrenched, tenured, and in the administration. Dr. Mueller, I loved the scalability, and I didn't hear any retreat in you, which was really good. No retreat, no retreat. You're right about that. And Dr. Swain, your take from the elite, I called them the formerly elite universities

because I think God's creating a new high school. I think an opportunity to go to Grand Canyon is far greater than an opportunity to go to an Ivy League school. Then I hope we're waking up to some of those realities. And then Ken, your whole piece on foundations, you're right. I think the answers are there if we'll humble ourselves and listen to what God has said. And every time I hear one of the Bartons talk about history, I know I should have paid attention in school.

But I made a couple notes in my margin, and I'll give us this, I'll frame this, and then I want to ask some questions. I don't think that this set of things would have happened if the church had been the church. I think whether we call it a weak church, a struggling church, an anemic church, a failed church. And I don't mean the denominations and the buildings and the pat. We're the church, folks. I mean, if I could add one thing, you know, people come to me all the time say, what's the church going to do?

And I always answer it with a question. Well, I don't know. What are you planning to do? Because if you're not planning to do something, I'm not giving you permission to mobilize somebody else for something you're not doing. And I think the very awkward conversation that we all have to have is because we have been distracted and maybe disinterested. Our children have suffered.

And so we are going to have to create an awareness. The other thing I put down in my notes was we've got wrong labels. we put buildings like this and we put a sign out in front of this Christian church when in reality we're not teaching biblical principles at all or we have Christian schools and they don't treat teach Christian principles

I mean they may teach some but then they teach secular principles and that's a very very destructive habit so I want to get into some of this a little bit more Katie you started us off so maybe we let you start us off in here with the clarity on the Marxism and the schools

and it's entrenched in the administrations, and it's entrenched in our government, so there's an authority behind it. How do we walk that back short of a revolution? God, that is a hard question. I mean, I think all... You have three minutes. I mean, it's okay.

Well, I think all I can say is kind of exactly what I said at the end that by giving those small individual examples, what I was trying to say is because education is vast. It is huge. Nobody, no one entity, no one person, and certainly not the Department of Education can fix it. And that's why I feel so strongly, almost exactly as you've just said, it's on every single one of us. Because it's going to take a thousand, thousands solutions, right? It's in every school. And honestly, it's in every family.

So I really feel like, I can't give you a single answer. It's really every single person saying this is too important, I've got to engage in this fight. I agree. Dr. Swain, I thought your practical approach to helping parents and grandparents

and adults unpacked the education system was necessary. but it requires us to accept more responsibility because we've wanted the status. I know I went to Vanderbilt because the church I was serving had 150 people and had no carpet on the floor. And we were out on the edge of town.

We built the church in the middle of a cotton field. And I was embarrassed. But a degree from Vanderbilt brought us, I thought, some perceived status. And I think we have sold, our character for status. And so I was very encouraged by your counsel on that. And yet you're still working in that educational system.

So give us the rest of the, you ran out of time. You had some more words for the parents. Well, I know that knowledge is power. And a lot of you may not have thought about the Marxism and how it's permeated just every sector of our society and the schools of education at every university, whether it's Christian or secular, you have that knowledge now. And many of you may not have thought a lot about Marxism or the things that we discussed today,

but now you are aware you know what to look for. And you don't have to support those institutions and you have power to hold them accountable. You don't have to send your child to one of those institutions. You don't have to donate when Vanderbilt sends you the letter, because you an alumni, part of the alumni. You don't have to participate in that.

And I think that there's hope for colleges and universities because they're losing their clientele. They can't continue to exist if they don't have students who are willing to go there. and when it comes to the public schools, they are bleeding kids. And I believe blacks and Hispanics are the fastest growing groups of homeschoolers. And so at some point you have to reexamine what you've been doing wrong and make changes. And I think we're at a point now where we can tell them what they've been doing wrong.

If they want to stay in business, they will have to make changes. It seems to me we did with education decades ago, what we've done with health care. in the last decade. We wanted the government to be responsible for it. We wanted outcomes that we didn't want to invest in. We wanted health care

that we didn't want to pay for or we didn't want to sacrifice for. So we said give us government health care. Well, we said that about education decades ago. We don't really want to be responsible for our children's education. We want to send them, somebody else do it.

And our health care system is crashing and our education system has crashed. COVID. gracefully showed us that. Dr. Mueller, I thought your affirmation that the biblical worldview and the free market system were necessary and complementary

is the simplicity of it is wonderful, but it's a profound concept for everybody to hold. Because I think they've told us to be ashamed of the free market system, that it was, destructive and selfish and and I thank you for that. How did the students

resonate when you give them that formula? Really well. You know, when did Christians get worried or get nervous about scale and about spreading the gospel? The key

to making things affordable so that you don't have to be dependent upon the government is scale. And so when we went to G.C. We knew we wanted a large campus of 18-year-olds, and that's at 25,000 students and grow into 50. But we have working adults all over the world now that are attending our programs online. We have 110,000 of those students. That's going to grow to 200,000.

And we're building hybrid campuses all over the country now. We have 49 of them stood up. That's for students who can't go back as an 18-year-old, but what they need to learn can't be learned totally online. And so we've got these 20,000 square foot facilities all over the country. eventually we'll have 80 of them. And as those student bodies grow, they're leveraging a common infrastructure. One president, one provost, one set of deans. We're leveraging all of that across three growing student bodies,

which has resulted in we haven't raised tuition in 18 years. While tuitions keep going up and debt levels keep going up, we've used the free market system to create an economic model that's not dependent upon the government, but our students are going for less tuition than the average, heavily subsidized state university students. They're taking out less debt. They're graduating in three years.

And most importantly, 80% of our programs have all been built in the last 10 years. And so we know where the economy is going. We've got 22 advisory boards, 800 companies on those advisory boards. We're creating programs that are going to help students get the next generation of jobs so that we can get the maximum number of people into the workforce, having an impact in every sphere of society. but the key is an economic model that is self-sustaining and it is not dependent upon the government. It can be done, but we've got to be very creative about how we do it.

You know, this podcast is made possible because of sponsors. And one of our sponsors is preserve gold. And I appreciate their partnership with us. And I pray it's a blessing to you. You know, one of the things that I hear most often right now is this, that people are doing their best plan for the future, but they're not sure what's trust anymore. You know, the headlines, they change every day.

And the economy, it feels pretty unpredictable. And that uncertainty, it's unsettling to all of us. But as people of faith, we're not called to live in fear. We're called to live with wisdom, with discernment, and with peace. Well, part of that is simply taking practical steps to protect what you've worked so hard to build and establish for yourself and your family. That's why many are turning to time-tested assets like gold and silver. Not as a reaction, but as a way to bring stability into their financial plans.

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could help protect your savings, text Allen to 50505 today. You'll receive your free wealth protection guide. I especially like not dependent upon the government. Did you take government funds? This is a misunderstood thing. The government will make you think that Title IV programs are theirs. They're not.

They're tax-paying. citizens who if they meet the eligibility requirement can get the money and then they spend it any university they want to people looking at grand cany's growth and saying holy kate this thing just exploded how did that happen the title four funds are not ours they're the students and if the students qualify they can take that those funds to any university that they want to uh and that that's how the system works. And so, yeah, we don't get state subsidies. We're not funded by the government.

And it takes more creativity. It takes more ambition. It takes a level of risk. But it can be done. I think in the next, what, 10 years, I'm hoping that there'll be 35, 40 states that have opened their funding in the K-12 world. So Arizona is a leader. so that parents can send their kids,

they can use those dollars and send their kids to any schools that they want to. Christian schools could explode if that happens and there could be a real renaissance of how young people think about the world. Amen.

Ken, your clarity on foundations and how essential. So if we have young people, students, adults, and they didn't put the foundation in the right way. It's, it's, renovations are more difficult. so I heard it that's in the Genesis 1 through 11 but you're a process guy so what's the

process for helping them rebuild or establish a foundation you know one of the things that I do as a communicator and I believe that's what the Lord gave me a gift of teaching communication and that is when I became a science teacher and and then being teaching on apologetics for 51 years, I look on communicating as building a house because you can't build a house from the roof down. You've got to build it from the foundation up. And one of the problems I see in much of the church and a lot of the Christian colleges that have compromised God's word is that they're trying to put the walls in the roof of Christianity on the wrong foundation. And we have to understand that we've got to have the right foundation. In fact, you know, if you want to look at it

from a theological perspective, evangelistic perspective, if you look at the difference between taking the gospel to the Jews in Acts 2 versus taking the gospel to the Greeks in Acts 17, when Peter went to the Jews, his main message was Christ crucified, you know, you crucified the son of God and they were picked to the heart and thousands were converted. That was our culture generations ago because there was foundational knowledge. There was a respect for the Bible. There was an understanding of Christian terminology. And so in that culture, the Jews knew about creation.

They understood about full, the promise of the Messiah, etc. But their stumbling block was that Jesus was a Messiah. But when Paul went to the Greeks in Acts 17, the same message and it's foolishness to them. They didn't understand it. Why? Because their foundation, I had no foundation of an understanding of one creator God, as the Jews did, and they didn't have any of the understanding of the fall of man

and the promise of the Savior, the entrance of death, etc. So they didn't have the foundational knowledge. So it was just foolishness to them. And one of the things that we've got to understand is our culture used to be more like the Jews as type, as a type. It's become more like the Greeks, but the trouble is much of the church still treats it as if it's like the Jews. In other words, much of our evangelism and the way we do things,

we're trying to impose the walls and the roof of trust Jesus, etc. on generations that don't have that foundation to understand it, and it collapses. And so what we have got to do is get people on the right road. When Paul was ministering to the Greeks, he then went back and said, oh, you have an altar here to the unknown God. Let me tell you who he is. He's the creator God. He's the real God.

We all come from one man. We're all of one race. That's why we're all sinners and did that foundation. So I'm saying that we have got to start in our homes, in our churches, of understanding even kids that brought up in the best of homes have been impacted by the secular world in many ways. And so many of them are so secularized that we have got to de-greek eyes their thinking.

It's a new theological term. de-greek-is their thinking so they become de-greek-eyed and you have to do it for yourselves as well as maybe for your pastors and maybe for the elders and deacons in your church and Sunday school teachers and I'll just give one example

to help us understand here a lot of what we do in our churches and homes as we teach Bible stories journey and the great fish feeding a 5,000 Paul's missionary journey Jesus on the cross and people say what's wrong with that well I would say two things One is that the word story has changed meaning today,

and atheists will say the Bible is just a book of stories, meaning fairy tales, so you have to be very careful using the word story anymore. And then secondly, we're not teaching them. You're teaching them these accounts from the Bible, but the Bible is also the foundation for a whole worldview to understand everything, to understand reality, and to know how to deal with every issue, whatever it is. and that starts with Genesis 1 to 11.

That's what we're missing. And that's why we produce our church curricula, our VBS. Our VBS was used by 15,000 churches, impacting a million kids this year. And over and over again, we had pastors, Christian leaders tell us we've never seen so many come to Christ. And the reason is, because we have science experiments, we have worldview, we connect it to the,

we connect the Bible to the real world. It's not just Bible story-based. And I think that's a big problem in much, of what we do in that church. David, you didn't, I didn't hear you talking about it. You were talking about how we learned, but you have invested years in curriculum development that's now being adopted in Texas,

which will impact many of the states across the country. Can you tell us a little bit about that work you've done? Yeah, there's something significantly going on. This is inside baseball probably more than people want to know, but they need to know. We won't tell a soul really. This is just between me and you. There's nobody else is.

So what happens is you have about, over the last 30 to 40 years for public schools, there's been basically six major publishers of textbooks, whether Scott Forrestman, McGraw, Hill, whoever it is. And for them to make money, which free market, they need to make money to produce, and so that's fine. But for them to make money, they need to make sure they can sell their books in some of the biggest states. And that tends to be Texas and California. our two states have 24% of the nation's public school kids. So if any publisher can get a hold of those two states,

then they're going to make money on their textbooks. But as you can imagine, the standards Texas comes up with or not the standards that California comes up with. We're very different. But when you put those two together, what do you get? You get a pretty useless textbook, but it sells all over the nation. And so Georgia can do what it wants,

but it's going to get stuck with one of the textbooks that's being published, by the big publishers. And Vermont can have what it wants, but it's, so you're getting stuck with that. What's happened is, for example,

in Texas, our legislature has been very aggressive in the last few years and passing some great laws. So we're driving back to original intent, to original focus. Our kids now have to read

the Federalist papers to understand the Constitution. I'll put the courts say about it, but the founders said about it. And so we've got, this year, our state legislature passed a bill to put both prayer and Bible

back in public schools. We've got that the fear of the Lord's beginning of knowledge, and not everybody that goes to public school is a Christian, but having a knowledge and fear of God is typical for America, because our documents proclaim God. That's what our declaration is about, 250 years. We have a creator of God. So all of that is there, and people are yelling about it.

You can't do it. Well, why can you teach all of your agendas and not teach a different agenda? How come it's okay to teach all the stuff you teach? which we disagree with. So all that to say that what has happened now is this is the third cycle where I've been appointed in Texas.

We just finished about two weeks ago. In Texas, I'm one of nine individuals that's appointed to write 22 courses of material. So all of our social studies, history courses, government, civics, et cetera, all of that's there. Here's where it gets different. Is our Texas has decided, We're not going to do this for any other publishing company.

We're creating our own publishing company. Now, by state law, by state law, we have to, before we can adopt any textbook in Texas, and adopting textbook means that the state will pay for those textbooks for schools that use them. All they have to meet is 50% of our requirements in Texas and we'll buy that textbook. Well, 50%, the other 50% is California. That's not what we want in Texas. Now, with the new law, 100% of what we wrote into the standards has to be in the textbooks. So we're having our own state publishing company.

And guess what? All these other red states are coming to Texas. We want your textbook. So here comes Missouri. Here comes Arkansas. Here comes Oklahoma. We've got the Ten Commandments back because that's the fundamental law. That was, I mean, going back to our 1643 first public school law.

So everything is changing now. But here's the deal. Okay. Great for us. we're changing. Our textbooks will not come online until 2030, 21. So we're still looking three to four years, because it takes four years to produce that to get all the curriculum together. And by the way, by state law, we also require that every level of school kids has to have biblical literature as part of their course. So as they go through, they're reading biblical

literature as part of their literature course, et cetera. But it won't come out to 30, 31. And then if you're a kindergarten kid, it's another 13 years. It's going to be 44. before we get the first set of kids all the way through school. So these kids that are going to get this content, it's going to be 2044. And this is going to be another six or seven years before they get elected to office. So we're talking 2050 and 60.

Exactly. And this is the problem with living in America today. We are so short-sighted. We forget that this thing changes over generations. It's little by little. I mean, you go back to Deuteronomy 722 and Exodus 23, 29, 30. God says, I will not give it to you all at once. He said, I will give it to you only little by little,

lest the enemy be creased against you. And so this step by step, man, we've got to learn to start taking the small steps because we've been wanting big wins, big gains, and we're getting nothing as a result. And so you've got to start taking small steps. And I guess I'd close with this challenge. When I go back to the founding fathers,

at the time the founding fathers were alive, the largest religion by far in America, and the world was Islam, by far. Christianity is way down second. Well, now 32% of the world is Christian, 21% is Muslim, 14% Buddhists, 6% Hindu, or reverse those two. Anyway, those are the top four. And we've been working for a long time. We put so much money into missions worth to get people brought to Christ.

We put billions into that, and good for us. But let me suggest something. If every existing Christian right now said my goal for this next year, year is to find one person and bring one person to Christ. I'm going to disciple one person. At the end of this year, Christianity would be 64%. In two years, the whole world would be Christian in only two years. We've been doing this for 2,000 years, paying all the professionals do it do it. Why don't we go do something ourselves? Why don't we take it on? God designed our bodies to heal. When I came to that awareness, it changed my whole attitudes

towards prayer, but it also changed my attitude towards health. We've got a responsibility to do everything we can to promote our own health. That means what we eat matters. Well, in our busy lives and all the things going on, I have found I need a little help with that. So supplements and vitamins, nutrients have become an important part of my own lifestyle. Jordan Rubin's a friend, so ancient nutrition.com has become a part of my daily routine. They're a sponsor of this podcast, not just because we needed a sponsor, but because I

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what God has for each one of us to do. I want to ask one more question, and I want you to each answer it from your own perspective, but I want to put it into context for us because when I listen to you, I think we all agree that education in general is,

is not in the great place, that we need significant changes. And I think that's true culturally in a broad way. As Christians, oftentimes we look at that and we go, well, it's eschatological. It's about the end of the age. And rather than invest time and years and effort in trying to resolve it, we're just praying for the big airlift. Okay?

Now, for the record, I want out on the first load up. Okay? I'm not arguing for the privilege of tribulating. But I don't want you to have an escapist theology that enables you to cover your eyes and ears and hear no evil, see no evil, and therefore do no good. So when I'm listening to all of you, I suspect there's a side of this story we haven't heard. Jesus, this is a biblical issue. It goes all through the generations of Scripture where God's people wander into the weeds

and have to be brought back. In the New Testament in the Gospels, Jesus is challenging the authority structure of his day and said, you've taken the principles of godliness and perverted them into self-promotion. You're whitewashed tombs, you're a bunch of snakes. He did not use nice. When people say Jesus was always kind, I'm like, which Bible did you read?

So my question is, I'm confident each of you has faced opposition. Criticism, pushback, resistance. Because when Christians don't like that, if you go to your workplace and you say, I'm a Christian, and somebody says, you can't say that, we have very meekly withdrawn.

Or if we've gone into academia and they have done that, when they say you can't use a male pronoun in reference to God, I said, okay, wouldn't do that today. So my question is, can you give us a couple of minutes into the kind of opposition you face and how you navigated it and why? We can start, Katie.

You live in D.C. There's no opposition there. I love this subject. Well, no, and I think this is an important one because I think it's the fear of opposition that keeps a lot of people silent. And I don't want to judge that because it is. It's really, really scary. And I will just say our opposition was more political, but it's still the same set of values. In my husband's first four months of being in the administration, he had 400 attack articles written about him. And I will just say my own little story was I was also in the first Trump administration

at Department of Homeland Security, and I was driving home one day past American University, and I see some students out protesting, and I get a little closer, and I see that they're protesting my husband. It is the entire subject of their protest. And I just had that split-second decision where I had to decide, do I drive by? Or do I stop? And I stopped. And I am not a confrontational person, but it was fantastic. And I engaged those students.

It was a quick conversation, and I just laid out the facts for them. And I pray I changed a mind or two. They listened to me. And I got to go home with my head held high. Dr. Swain, I'm sure you haven't faced any opposition in academia, have you? Well, I can tell you about life before I became a Christian. Things were easy. I won national prizes where there would only be two or three given in the nation.

I was hired at Princeton. I got a signing bonus everywhere I interviewed. I got an offer except the University of Michigan and by then I had like five or six offers and so they knew they didn't stand a chance. And everything I thought I wanted came easy for me. My life was planned out. I was going to get the early tenure in three years.

It normally takes seven. I went up in the third year, got it in the fourth year. I was going to have a full professorship in six years I got that and then I was going to have a cabinet position in 10 but then I changed my mind about wanting

that. After I became a Christian, the job office stopped the prizes ended and all of a sudden I became less desirable. I had many people that came to me

and said, what happened? Used to be a great political scientist but what ended my career and I did not get fired from Vanderbilt I took early retirement was that I wrote an opinion piece in 2015 criticizing Islam the day after it was published in the Tennessee

and I knew that life was over as I knew it and it was the most read article in the Tennessean for that year that's how I grew my social media like the worst thing in my life it boosted me God, you used that to get me out of academia. So it was fine, but, you know, when I became a Christian, it ended my career. And it was impossible to get a job anywhere. I applied to some Christian schools.

There was a private Christian school that out, that's nameless, that was for high school students, the headmaster wanted to hire me, some parents complained. And so I became an influencer. Far beyond the walls of one classroom or one campus. And now the world is my classroom. And if people wanted to curtail my influence, they should have kept me in academia. Okay, Doc. I'm sure the universities just applaud your work. You don't face any pressure from... Yeah, no, it's, it's, you know, university education, the tuition's keep going up, debt levels keep going up,

people get more and more dissatisfied with program offerings because they're rooted in the past, not the future. And so while all those things were going on, the university was just exploding. And people ask me all the time, did you see this coming? And honestly, I thought we had a good plan.

I could have never predicted this. I could have never predicted what God has done. But when it really started going, the Biden administration came after us in a big way. They wanted this thing stopped at all costs. And they opened up investigation after investigation and came back with unbelievable things. Like they said in your advertising that cybersecurity specialists are important in almost every organization needs some level of cybersecurity. You're overpromising.

I said, you've got to be kidding me. So our people ask me, should we change it? I said, absolutely not. Within 24 hours, they back down. Then they came back weeks later with some trumped up. thing about us misleading doctoral students. And they carried that and eventually they level a fine. Within two weeks, they leveled the biggest fine in the history of the department of that against us and the second biggest fine against liberty. I mean, they weren't even being careful. They

weren't even being subtle about this. That happened within two weeks time. And so they asked me to comment on the 37 million dollar fine and I said, I didn't intend, I never thought about this. It just came out. I said, I don't care if that finds 37 million dollars or one dollar. I can tell you this, we're not going to pay it. And we won this case. It costs us all kinds of millions of dollars, but we won the case in the Ninth Circuit in California. In the night circuit, we won the case.

And so, but until you felt that, that pressure, that harassment from the federal government, you haven't, until you feel it personally, you don't understand how determined they are about their worldview and to stop anything it stands in the way of that worldview. If we were 2,000 students in a sleepy campus in West Phoenix, Arizona, they wouldn't have said a word, but when you start graduating 35,000 students on an annual basis and you put them into the workplace in order to change the culture, that's a threat.

And it was, I never intended to say what I said, and thank God it worked out the way it did. But they're so confident that you won't resist them, that you won't stand up to them. I got to say one more thing. You know, we're 20 minutes away from Turning Point USA. And Charlie Kirk was, you know, he was a hero on our campus. He was on our campus a lot. We have the largest Turning Point Club in America on our campus. The work that he did, giving young people the confidence to speak the truth, I mean, he changed.

that was, he, you could see it. You could see it on our campus. You could see it in our classrooms. They spoke the truth lovingly, but they spoke the truth and they didn't back down. We need more Charlie Kurtz. We just need more Charlie Kurtz. They went after you because you were making a difference

in the inner city towards their constituents, and they were afraid they would lose them. That is absolutely true. That is absolutely true. And if I've learned anything through all of this, it's that when you really live out Matthew 25 and you really care about the least of these and you put in place programs that change people

and lift people, the transformation takes place. The transformation takes place in some of the most hardened hearts. they'll start to listen to the gospel message. Ken, you built an arc. That's not like a challenge to the establishment. I bet all the evolution is lined up just to applaud your perspective on the world. I know you've had to endure being called many things other than a blessing. How did you navigate that?

Well, you know, just recently a Christian media outlet was interviewing me. At the end of the interview, the interviewer said, Ken, in 51 years of teaching, apologetics and in this ministry and all you've done, what's been your biggest problem? And in less than a second, I said, people. And I have determined, I'm going to write a book with the title, this world would be a better place without people. But let me just say, over the years, we've had opposition from non-Christians, opposition from Christians, opposition from the government. The government won. The ARC actually qualified for a, it's a tax incentive, it's a rebate on sales tax you generate within the facility. It's a Kentucky legislation to encourage you to build tourist attractions in the state.

And we qualified for that. And the then governor, who was the father of the now governor, who for some reason won't even mention us when it talks about tourism and yet the ark is the biggest theme to attraction in the state. But it might have something to do with the fact that his father wrote me a letter and basically said, you're going to tell people about Jesus, you can't have this tourism tax incentive.

And so we took him to court. And we won. interested to know the attorney who led that for us as a First Amendment issue was Mike Johnson who is now the Speaker of the House.

I wanted to say one of my heroes of the faith is Nehemiah and you know Nehemiah was repairing the wall and that's sort of what we're doing repairing the breach the loss of biblical authority to restore the foundation and he got opposition

and I like when it talks about the fact that he said, I'm too busy building a wall to come down and argue with you. But notice something, they built the wall, but with a spear in one hand and a trail in the other. In other words, you've got to be prepared to defend what you're doing. And with the non-Christians, I wrote a book called Miraculous, actually, which is the whole history of this ministry.

And in that book I talk about a number of examples how when they tried to stop us and we even lost our first property for the Creation Museum, which we opened in 2007, because some left-wing people turned against us and atheists did things. But when the media said, so you're giving up now and said, absolutely not, God called us to do this, we are doing it. And how are you going to do it if you don't have that land? I don't know, God will provide something else. and the property we ended up with was far better. God burdened us to build the Ark in the Creation Museum for this reason. And this has always been my philosophy, is that there are a lot of people out there

you couldn't blow into church with a stick of dynamite, but you could get them to a world-class attraction. And I've been at the Ark encounter when I've seen Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, Orthodox Jews, Roman Catholic nuns, priests, Amish, Medanites, there's even Baptists, not Methodist or two,

a few Presbyterians. But my point is, where would you ever see a mix like that in a church? You wouldn't. And because we're answering questions, we're apologetics, answering questions, and pointing people to God's word, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.

That we've done research, year after year after year. We've had now 16 million people come to Northern Kentucky because of the attractions. The Ark was open in 2007. Sorry, the Creation Museum was open in 2007. The Ark in 2016. And we get about 1.5 million

visitors a year coming to Northern Kentucky for the attractions. And we've done research year after year after year and it's all consistent showing that over 100,000 people a year say they profess Christ as a result of coming to those attractions. So I think that's a pretty good investment. Our nation needs our prayers.

Let's pray for wisdom and courage for those who have been entrusted to lead us. Let's ask God to raise up godly voices who will stand for truth and protect the freedoms we've been given. God has blessed America in remarkable ways. Let's thank him for this land, its resources, and the freedoms generations before us work to preserve. and let's pray for his protection over our nation, our communities, and our borders, and ask him to guide our future. Let's pray for an awakening in the church that God's people will be salt and light in our communities. Let's pray for our families, our schools, and the next generation, and ask God to bring healing where division has taken hold. Request your copy today with your gift of $15 or more at Alan Jackson.com.

or call 800-880-5102. Last and not least, I know you've taken criticism because I cited, I wrote, had a book for a Christian publisher, and I cited a couple of history facts, and I used you. I mean, I noted it, and they sent it back to me through an editor and said that you weren't reliable. I had that happen, too. And he has the largest collection of documents privately held,

American history documents of anybody in the world. So I went back and did the further research beyond what he'd said, and he'd told the truth. So we gave it back the publisher, but I know they pushed back on you, that you fabricated history and twisted it, but you didn't quit. No, and it's interesting. It's great. I mean, fine, because they wouldn't attack us if we weren't making progress.

And so that's fine. Go for it. Anybody in the Bible that was doing good got attacked, And that's just the way it is. And if you don't like getting attacked, then do nothing. But that's not good with God. So since I account to him and nobody else, then I'm not really cared what,

I don't really care what they say about it. And so as long as he pleases, we've got an audience of one. Now, I don't want to get somebody else in trouble if it turns out that I did something wrong. And so that's why we try to take every foot we, I'm amazed at some academic books that come out and say, oh man, we've got nearly 300 footnotes.

I've got that in one chapter. I mean, that's what you got. So we try to document everything back to original sources. We own the source, we go back to original sources, and still gets a lot of criticism, et cetera. So we actually went so far as to do a defamation case against some of the stuff. And that's hard to do because I'm considered a public figure.

And in law, public figure, you're just stuck with it. And that's why Trump doesn't sue on everything that they say about him that's wrong. And yet we won the defamation case. It was that bad. Their lies were so that bad. But then, once we won the defamation case, they refused to post it because they said, oh, that doesn't really matter. Now, wait a minute.

You're saying all the lies were there, and then it turned out I'm right. Now that I'm right, you say that doesn't matter. So it's great. It doesn't bother me because, again, they answer to God, I answer to God. I'm not the one that keeps score. He keeps score. That's one of my life lessons is God keeps score, so I don't have to. So it doesn't matter how that turns out.

and I also look at how many Christians attack us. And I think it's interesting, but then I point to Moses, he only fought the Egyptians one time. He fought his own people for 40 years, you know. So that's just the way the Christian community is. So this is just all human nature to me. No worries. And you bow with me for a prayer?

Father, I thank you for the testimony of these men and women. I thank you for their lives and the fruit of their lives and the encouragement that he had been willing to give us. Thank you for their courage and their body. boldness and their determination and their sacrifices. Thank you for your faithfulness to them. And Lord, as we come to you today, we humble ourselves. We ask you to forgive us for those play times.

We've been silent when we should have used our voices. Those times when we pretended not to notice, when we overlooked or accommodated ungodliness, Lord, forgive us. This is our watch. You have called us to this generation. and we want to be pleasing in your sight. And I thank you, Lord Jesus,

that you took the punishment for our failures, that we might receive the mercy and grace and the strength that came from your perfect obedience. And as we repent today, Lord, now we receive what you have for us. We say yes to those new futures and those new opportunities. Lord, give us courage and boldness

and wisdom beyond ourselves. May we be willing to live out the truth that we have said we believe, and give expression to it in such a way, Father, that by your power, we'll see the name of Jesus exalted, that our children and young people and schools and universities will see new light and have new hope.

And through it all, may you be pleased. In Jesus' name, amen. Thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic too. If you haven't yet, be sure and subscribe to Alan Jackson Ministries YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity podcast.

You can do that on Spotify, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith. We can change our culture. I'll see you next time.