CyberWire Daily - Chasing Silicon shadows.

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Cyberwire Network, powered by N2K. And now a word from our sponsor, Threat Locker, the powerful zero-trust enterprise solution that stops ransomware in its tracks. Allow listing is a deny-by-default software that makes application control simple and fast. Ring fencing is an application containment strategy, Ensuring apps can only access the files, registry keys, network resources, and other applications they truly need to function. Shut out cybercriminals with world-class endpoint protection from threat locker. Two Chinese nationals are arrested for allegedly exporting sensitive invidiviant.

Starting point is 00:01:00 AI chips. A critical security flaw has been discovered in Microsoft's new NL Web protocol. Vulnerabilities in Dell laptop firmware could let attackers bypass Windows logins and install malware. Trend Micro warns of an actively exploited remote code execution flaw. Google confirms a data breach involving one of its Salesforce databases. A lack of MFA leaves a Canadian city on the hook for ransomware recovery costs. Invidia's CSO denies the need for backdoors, or kill switches on the company's GPUs. Sisa flags multiple critical vulnerabilities in Tygo Energy's cloud connect advanced platform. DHS grants funding cuts off the MSISAC.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Our guest is Sarah Powazek from UC Berkeley's Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity, discussing her proposed nationwide roadmap to scale cyber defense for community organizations. And live from Black Hat USA 2025, we've got a special woman on the street segment with Calceon Cynthia Kaiser and Stacey Cameron. And helicopter parenting officially hits the footwear aisle. It's Wednesday, August 6, 2025. I'm Dave Bittner, and this is your Cyberwire Intel briefing. Thanks for joining us here today.

Starting point is 00:02:43 It's great to have you with us. Two Chinese nationals were arrested in the U.S. for allegedly exporting sensitive Nvidia AI chips, including H-100s and RTX-4090s, to China without a license. operating through their California company, ALX Solutions Incorporated, they're accused of routing tens of millions of dollars worth of GPUs through countries like Singapore and Malaysia to evade U.S. export laws.

Starting point is 00:03:14 The chips are critical for AI applications like self-driving cars and medical diagnostics. Federal authorities uncovered incriminating evidence during a raid, including communications and payment records, with one transaction totaling $1 million. Both men face charges under the Export Control Reform Act, carrying up to 20 years in prison. A critical security flaw has been discovered in Microsoft's new NL Web Protocol, billed as HTML for the Agentic Web,

Starting point is 00:03:48 just weeks after its debut at the Build Conference. The vulnerability, a basic path traversal bug, allowed attackers to access sensitive files like system configs and API keys for AI services, such as OpenAI and Gemini. Researchers Wan and Guan and Lee Wang reported the issue to Microsoft in May, and a patch was issued in July, though no CVE has been assigned yet. Guan warns the flaw could let attackers steal the brains of AI agents, potentially causing major damage, while Microsoft says its own product,

Starting point is 00:04:25 weren't affected, and L-Web users must manually update to fix the issue. Five serious vulnerabilities in Dell's Control Vault 3 firmware, used in over 100 latitude and precision laptop models, could let attackers bypass Windows logins and install malware that survives reinstalls. Known as Revolt, the flaws impact Dell's hardware-based security module, which stores sensitive data like passwords and biometrics. Discovered by Cisco Talos, the bugs include out-of-bounds errors, stack overflows, and unsafe deserialization, affecting both firmware and Windows APIs. If exploited, attackers with physical access can gain control over the unified security

Starting point is 00:05:14 hub, escalate privileges, or trick fingerprint readers into accepting unauthorized users. Dell has released patches, but Talos advises extra precautions like disabling unused authentication devices, enabling BIOS intrusion detection, and using enhanced sign-in security in Windows to defend against potential firmware-level threats. Trend Micro has issued an urgent warning about an actively exploited remote code execution flaw in its apex 1 endpoint security platform. The vulnerability affects the on-premise management console and allows pre-authenticated attackers to execute code remotely. No patch is available yet, but Trend Micro has released a mitigation tool that blocks known exploits, though it disables remote agent installation. A full fix is expected mid-August.

Starting point is 00:06:10 Administrators are urged to secure systems immediately, especially if consoles are exposed online. Google has confirmed a data breach involving one of its Salesforce databases with threat group shiny hunters stealing contact information from small and medium business clients. The compromised data includes basic, mostly public business info like names and contact details. Google hasn't disclosed how many were affected and hasn't confirmed any ransom demands. The attackers used voice fishing tactics to gain access. This breach follows similar incidents targeting Salesforce systems used by Cisco, Qantas, and Pandora.

Starting point is 00:06:54 Google warned that shiny hunters may soon publish the stolen data on a leak site to pressure victims. The group is linked to TheCom, a cybercriminal collective known for hacking and extortion. Google has not said whether it will notify impacted businesses directly or provide additional security support. The city of Hamilton, Ontario in Canada must cover the full $18.3 million cost of recovering from a February ransomware attack after its insurance claim was denied. The insurer rejected the claim because multifactor authentication was not fully in place when the attack occurred. A third-party review upheld the denial. Most costs went to external experts, with over a million dollars each spent on infrastructure, staffing, and other needs. Attackers disabled 80% of the city's network and demanded $18.5 million in ransom, which the city refused to pay.

Starting point is 00:07:56 City officials say no personal or health data was compromised. While most systems have been restored, several, like finance and fire department records, were lost. Mayor Andrea Horwath acknowledged the failure and emphasized a renewed commitment to stronger cybersecurity moving forward. Invidia's chief security officer, David Reber Jr., strongly denied the existence or need for backdoors or kill switches in the company's GPUs, responding to rising pressure from both U.S. lawmakers and Chinese authorities. His blog post follows U.S. proposals like the Chinese.

Starting point is 00:08:36 Chip Security Act, which could mandate tracking tech or remote shutdown features in AI chips. Meanwhile, China is investigating NVIDIA's H2O chips for alleged vulnerabilities. Reber warned such measures would pose serious security risks, calling backdoors dangerous vulnerabilities, and kill switches, an open invitation for disaster. While NVIDIA hopes to regain limited access to the Chinese market, the idea of U.S. control, hardware access could undermine trust abroad. China is accelerating domestic chip development, threatening NVIDIA's lead in the AI hardware space as companies like Huawei catch up. SISA has flagged multiple critical vulnerabilities in TIGO Energy's cloud-connected advanced platform,

Starting point is 00:09:28 widely used in residential and critical solar energy infrastructure. The flaws include hard-coded credentials, a command-injection vulnerability enabling remote code execution and weak session ID generation. TIGO is working on patches, but no release date has been set. SISA urges users to isolate devices behind firewalls and avoid exposing them directly to the Internet. The Department of Homeland Security has released the final funding round for the $1 billion state and local cybersecurity grant program.

Starting point is 00:10:04 this round totaling $91.7 million. Each U.S. state will get at least $1 million, while U.S. territories will receive a minimum of $250,000. A new rule prohibits using grant funds for services from the multi-state ISAC and the elections infrastructure ISAC, both previously funded by DHS. The MSISAC, which has helped local governments with cybersecurity for over two decades, is now shifting to a paid subscription model due to reduced federal funding.

Starting point is 00:10:39 North Dakota CISO Chris Gergen expressed disappointment, noting MSISAC's services align closely with the grant's goals. The grant also prohibits spending on ransoms, insurance, or construction. DHS emphasizes cyber resilience while cutting redundant costs. Sissa says it remains committed to supporting governments with free services, despite pulling direct funding from long-standing partners like MSISAC. Coming up after the break, my conversation with Sarah Powazek from UC Berkeley's Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity,

Starting point is 00:11:25 discussing her proposed nationwide roadmap to scale cyber defense for community organizations. And from Black Hat, it's a special, on the street segment with Halcyons, Cynthia Kaiser, and Stacey Cameron. Plus, helicopter parenting officially hits the footwear aisle. Stay with us. New adversary tactics and emerging tech to meet these threats is developing all the time. On threat vector, we keep you a step ahead. We dig deep in.

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Starting point is 00:12:32 So being able to very rapidly ID what's going on in an environment and contain that immediately. They're hiding in plain sight. So if you're looking to sharpen your strategy and stay ahead of what's next, tune in and listen to Threat Vector. Your frontline for security insights. Machine identities now outnumber humans by more than 80 to 1, and without securing them, trust, uptime, outages, and compliance are at risk.

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Starting point is 00:15:29 My guest today is Sarah Powazek from UC Berkeley's Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity. We're discussing her proposed nationwide roadmap to scale cyber defense for community organizations. SISA, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, started an initiative a couple years ago called the High Risk Community Protection Initiative. And this was really their effort to focus on nonprofits and other high-risk community organizations that really weren't getting the full force of, federal attention because obviously the federal government concentrates on national security threats. And usually journalists, nonprofits, food banks don't really qualify. That effort wound down after a year. It was a bit of a sprint for them. And moving out of that work, we worked with them to say, what is the next step of the high-risk community's protection initiative? What is the

Starting point is 00:16:20 next step of trying to protect more systemically these types of small organizations that don't really get a lot of federal assistance that are never going to meet that threshold of a national security threat, but are still very vital to their communities. And that is how we started this group called the Cyber Resilions Corps. It's co-chaired by the UC Berkeley Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity, CLTC, and the Cyber Peace Institute. And between our two organizations, we convened several dozen experts on community cyber defense, whether or not they're running a cyber volunteering program, whether or not they run maybe an affordable or a free-to-use managed service provider to talk about some of these issues that community organizations are facing and what we need to do

Starting point is 00:17:05 as a cybersecurity field in a community to better protect them. So that's really the impetus for this report. You know, one of the things that caught my eye reading through the report is this notion of a cyber poverty line that in some ways we can describe things as, you know, the people being the haves and the have-nots. Can you flesh that out a little bit for us, what the reality there is? Yeah, I think that everybody in cyber has a different word for these types of organizations, but I think we're all very familiar with what this looks like. So cyber poverty line, target rich, resource poor, I think is SISA's term, basically any organization that can't afford the basics for cybersecurity, which is a lot of them. So whether or not that's a small

Starting point is 00:17:50 organization or a large organization that just has a very small budget. These are the types of institutions that uphold our public life. So think about the Boys and Girls Club, the local food bank, your church or synagogue or mosque. Think about your local dentist's office, but also things like small water utilities, small hospitals, things that you'd anticipate having more resources, but actually when it comes to cybersecurity, tend to be very underinvested in the field. So we need to think about all these together. I think as a field we typically think about these in terms of sector. What can we do for the water sector? What can we do for the hospital sector? But there's actually a lot in common between these types of small organizations across sectors than there is maybe between a very,

Starting point is 00:18:33 very small rural hospital and a very, very large metropolitan area hospital. So that's what we like to refer to as the cyber poverty line. When the report talks about this notion of a roadmap and this co-responsibility model. Can you describe that for us? Absolutely. So when we were thinking about how to propose a path forwards for all these very different organizations in a way that we thought would be meaningful, we had to split it into a few different sections. So the first section was, what can we do right now that we think will make a difference? And there was some disagreement in the group on this. I mean, there's a million and one things that you can do to help organizations. A lot of it has been tried already in the industry. Can we give them free tools?

Starting point is 00:19:15 Can we give them free software? What if we send someone out to go and help for a little bit and they come back? What is actually really going to be effective? And the way that we were able to drill down into that was by developing a co-responsibility model. We had to agree amongst ourselves what we thought was the organization's responsibility for themselves and what we thought was more the community's responsibility to help protect them. And we decided as a group that there should always be some amount of responsibility that lies within the individual institution, right?

Starting point is 00:19:46 We can't take away all of the cybersecurity responsibility from a nonprofit and say, none of it is your responsibility because it would remove their buy-in, right? We need some level of investment at the institutional level for the CEO to say, I'm worried about cyber risk. I'm going to make sure that I allot an IT budget. I'm going to hire someone who will help make these decisions for me. So that's what we left within the responsibility of our organization is that institutional understanding of risk and investment in that risk.

Starting point is 00:20:13 But everything else, we take the. position that the industry should be doing a better job of providing those services. And that's mostly the talent, right? A non-profits budget of IT is sometimes approaching zero. We don't anticipate that changing. So we need to be more creative about the ways that we expect nonprofits to use cybersecurity technology and tools. We can't expect that they're always going to have a CISO, let alone, you know, an IT full-time staffer. And so we have to, we structured the report around how can we find creative ways to provide that sort of hands-on technical assistance, assuming that those institutions aren't going to have that in-house?

Starting point is 00:20:54 Well, share with me some of the suggestions here. What are some of the practical things that the community can do to better protect everybody? Yeah, the core of our solution for the short term is really relying on cyber volunteering programs. Folks might have heard of things like cyber clinics where students are learning to give risk assessments to local institutions as a part of their schooling. And there are also programs like the state civilian cyber corps where volunteers at the state level form sort of an auxiliary corps. And they're called in to help with incident response and training for local cities and hospitals and other types of organizations. So there are these really low cost programs that

Starting point is 00:21:39 rely on community resources that are very decentralized, that we like to say they form a cyber safety net. And what we want to do is strengthen that safety net. So try and scale up the number of volunteers that are active in different communities around the country, scale the skilling that each of them have so that we can reach a consistency of services across whether or not you're working with a clinic or a state civilian cybercore or a nonprofit cyber volunteering program. You're getting what you need out of it. And we want to connect these sort of short-term Band-Aid solutions, which is everybody needs help now. We need to get it to them as quickly as possible to more long-term solutions, such as an affordable managed service provider or managed cybersecurity service

Starting point is 00:22:24 provider. So those were really the recommendations around how do we scale these types of models, how do we make sure that they're consistent and providing good service? And then how do we connect them to this cybersecurity ecosystem and give them a sort of on-ramp into more systemic cyber resilience. What would your call of action to be for the people in our audience who may be looking for opportunities to give back? Do you have guidance for where's a good place to start? Yeah, that's a great question. I know that folks might be tired of reading reports in this day and age, and that's why, along with it, we also released a platform called Cybervolunteering. Cybervolunteers.U.S. I'm going to say that again so that I make sure I get the URL right.

Starting point is 00:23:09 We released a platform at cybervolunteers.us, where anybody can go to learn about cyber volunteering programs across the United States to figure out what program might be right for them if they're interested in volunteering. Or if you know of a local organization that's in need of help, they can go to that website to find a program that they would qualify for to receive free assistance. But again, our biggest hurdle here is trying to increase the number of volunteers and increase the number of volunteering program. So especially the folks who listen to this podcast that might be leaders that have communities of their own that are interested in volunteering, come and talk to us and start up a new program where you can recruit your friends and your colleagues to start

Starting point is 00:23:50 providing some of these pro bono services to organizations in need. That's Sarah Powazek from UC Berkeley's Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity. This week is, of course, Black Hat USA 2025. We've got a special woman on the street segment with Halcyon's Cynthia Kaiser, and their CISO, Stacey Cameron. So I have a multifaceted value proposition that I do here. One is I really like to do a lot of networking, reach out to other leaders in the field.

Starting point is 00:24:38 And, you know, we kind of share horror stories and success stories. And so that is, to me, that's a very value added to really grow and build that network. But additionally to that is coming in, hearing some of the briefings, meeting sitting on the panels, listening to awesome people, leaders in the field really go over and sort of expand everything that I know and things that I don't know and that educational aspect of it as well. Also use it as a chance at being the chief information security officer, I use it as a chance to meet with some of my vendors and some of my potential vendors. as a CISO, anyone in that field understands that you're always getting accosted, I would say, by a lot of vendors.

Starting point is 00:25:25 But they're really trying to sort of help the role. But some certain things that I need to do as I'm continuing to improve our security posture and mature our security posture at Houselian is uses as an attitude. This one and other conferences, just let's set up, let's talk, let's go over some things and let's just knock it all with one bang. So I use it for two purposes. I use it. Get out there. Sometimes we're talking to customers. Sometimes I'm talking to partners.

Starting point is 00:25:52 Sometimes I'm at the briefings. I'm able to learn and educate myself and educate others. I've met someone that almost like in a mentor role since I've been here, been able to really provide that guidance for up and coming folks in the profession. So those types of things just sort of happened by happenstance. And that was kind of a byproduct of being here. But yeah, there's just so many. ways that I can use this as an as an opportunity to really grow in the security space.

Starting point is 00:26:22 And I guess as Sissau, you kind of have a target on your back because you do have purchase authority. Yes. But you can't purchase everything. Don't need to purchase something. But we do need to purchase something. So let's put it on that aspect. But yeah, so it's it's one of those things where it's actually beneficial. sometimes because it opens a lot of doors, right? So if I'm trying to do something, but on the other side, it opens a lot of doors. You get a lot of phone calls and somebody take and somebody down. Yeah. Well, Cynthia, as you're heading into this year's Blackhead, what's your sense in terms of the tone, how people are meeting the needs and the challenges of the industry this year?

Starting point is 00:27:09 What's the temperature that you're sensing there? You know, I've met so many people who had, it's their first black cat, which I found kind of surprising. I mean, actually, I'm the first black cat, you know, in 10D, too. But being able to, I think, have people come and there's such a sense of, like, wanting to learn not only from the presentations themselves, but a real interest in learning from each other. Stacey said it well, like, it's the people, right? Like, you come and you get to meet people, and I sense that there's a lot of excitement

Starting point is 00:27:44 across industry for what we're going to be able to accomplish with some of the new technology or new-ish at this point technology that we're able to do. And I think from my vantage point of doing our soft launch of the Ransper Research Center last week, I'm just excited to meet with all these companies that are willing to share, really to partner and want to actually put stuff together

Starting point is 00:28:14 so that we can have a difference against cyber adversaries. Well, Cynthia, what is the specific type of networking and connections that you're looking to make there with the launch of this ransomware center? You know, I'm trying to gather information about how people may want to partner and why, and I think that we've had a wide spectrum of interest in that. I've spoken with startups, especially, you know, small companies, medium-sized, companies and we've talked through how we can take our good information that we have and we can all put it out but you know it's of okay value and maybe sometimes good value but it's niche but if we

Starting point is 00:28:59 all put it together we can do something much more comprehensive and i think there's a lot of interest especially across the startup community and being able to pursue that i've also been talking to various companies who say, I'm not going to want my name on the website, but I'd love to share data because I want to put it all together. We want to get information together and gift wrap it, give it back to the government so they can do something about all these problems. And I think that's been really fun. And third is the policy element. People who want to talk about what are the solutions that we can drive as collective across industry and talk about with policymakers, is especially with Sean Kerrcross being confirmed over the weekend.

Starting point is 00:29:44 You know, Stacey, as the CISO, a lot of folks who are just starting off in the industry here, certainly would find you to be an inspiration, someone to look up to, perhaps turn to for mentorship. As you're walking around a show floor like this, it strikes me that people might be hesitant to strike up a conversation with someone at your level, but my sense is that, you want to talk to those people. Absolutely. And a lot of times there's introductions and already happening this week, right?

Starting point is 00:30:18 So we're already out here. We came for some of the pre-events and people who have just met or now introduced me to more people and people that are coming, trying to break into this space. And a lot of people don't really understand like within cybersecurity,

Starting point is 00:30:31 there's so many ways and so many skills that are transferable. So whether you're a lawyer or a project manager, so many ways that they apply to cyber, and the question is, well, how do I break in? How do I get in there? And I actually, I'm glad you asked this question because I was just telling a young lady earlier that Cynthia got to meet. So I wanted to make sure I introduced her so she can start expanding. The young lady can start expanding her network. And it was, she's asking like,

Starting point is 00:30:59 how do I do this? I'm like, just walk up and talk to people. Because just like you said, people may not want to talk to you. I'm like, they have a badge on. They're here. A lot of people are here to, and they're going to enjoy the networking aspect of it. They're here for exposure and to be exposed. So those types of things is, yes, I encourage you. I have a smell of my face, so I try to be welcoming. So a lot of people come in and they'll just say hi and we'll just start talking. I'm like, oh, you're a C-So. And now, and then we just go from there. And it kind of helps them and promote that to give them more confidence and where they're talking and just sharing information, just asking them about their journey and being interested. And yes, I know

Starting point is 00:31:37 we're going from meeting to meeting, but we do have to take that time to talk to the people. So, yes. And Stacey, if I can add to that, I think sometimes it's hard to be a woman in cybersecurity. But one of the best parts is that I always find that I'm a little more recognizable. And so people will come up and talk to, you know, I find that people come up and talk to me all the time. Or I met somebody yesterday who was like, hey, I remember you from this conference in, you know, 2023. And it's so fun to be able to make those connections across the years, across the

Starting point is 00:32:14 conferences, to know that you were able to have that conversation and share what you learned. And we were just at an event this morning where we were doing just that, where we were trying to share like, what do we get right? What did we get wrong? And what's the advice we give to our prior selves. And in showing up, when they show up and they see us in certain places like we're at panels and you're talking in the events and those types of things. Someone after that event this morning walked up to the elevator. I saw you earlier. So that was an entry way.

Starting point is 00:32:42 You know, this is how I can talk to these type of people. So yes, I do get that. I will say even from a mentor standpoint, I do have some mentees. I take mentoring very seriously. And I believe that there's a lot of time that goes into. So some people, if I don't have, I may not have the bandwidth to, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:01 take on a bunch of mentees, but I will take time to have a coffee. have a virtual coffee, to have a chat, because I think is, I believe in the industry and I believe in emerging talent. And I want to make sure that people understand that they can be successful in this industry as well. Well, before I let you go, I want to ask each of you, how do you measure success? When you head home from a conference like this, what do you hope to take home with you? What do you hope to accomplish? Let me start with you, Cynthia. I love taking home business cards and lots of LinkedIn connections, because what

Starting point is 00:33:35 do when I go home is I try to send a message to each one of those people. I know that we felt like we've identified some reason why we're connecting, why we're following up. And so success to me is being able to continue the conversation after the conference is done. I was going to say something similar. I know when I have like, it's kind of like you have your meeting and you have your action items, right? So if I don't leave any leave here with anything new on my plate or or even something that I'm already working on a solution for that or maybe progression during that that I don't think I've accomplished

Starting point is 00:34:10 what I've come here to do. And as I see-so, I'm still working, right? So I'm here able to enjoy the conference, but I'm starting my day early, checking in with my team, making sure things are still going as planned and then jumping in midday as well. But I really want to make sure

Starting point is 00:34:25 those relationships are solid. I don't know. Cynthia mentioned the business cards. I like pictures of business cards. I'm very... And definitely the LinkedIn connections. And I was thinking similarly, like when you have those LinkedIn connections and you never reach out, I was like, is it really a connection? And we haven't only spoken to each other

Starting point is 00:34:42 and we're kind of just connected in theory. Yeah. And I think, you know, in the end, you just want to learn one good thing. Yeah. Right. If we can learn one good thing, attend one good talk, have that, you know, one really great new meeting. I mean, that makes it all worth it because you collect those and it just makes you better. Oh, and then I love to. all the wonderful, amazing women that we were meeting out here, these bosses out here in the streets in the world of IT and cyber where it once was a, this was a man's world, right? And it once was that. And I love that the men out there are welcoming our allies and advocates and just seeing so many women not afraid to excel and do what they need to do

Starting point is 00:35:31 to succeed. So that's a, it's beautiful and amazing watching all of that actually be in an industry for going over 20 years. Our thanks to Cynthia Kaiser and Stacey Cameron from Halcyon for joining us from Black Hat in Las Vegas. And finally, helicopter parenting has officially hit the footwear aisle. Skechers' new Find My Skechers line quietly sneaks in a sealed compartment under the insul, perfectly sized for an Apple air tag, not included, of course. On the surface, it's a clever way to locate lost sneakers. In practice, it's parental tracking disguised as stylish kicks

Starting point is 00:36:31 for toddlers to eight-year-olds. The Internet naturally is divided. Some hail it as a lifesaver, especially for kids with special needs. Others see Big Brother lacing up early. The shoes look ordinary, but they whisper, I know where you are,

Starting point is 00:36:47 and so do your shoes. Add 52 bucks a pair, plus the air tag. They're priced for peace of mind, or pint-sized surveillance, depending on your view. From Be Home by Dark, to GPS-enabled souls. Childhood just got a firmware update.

Starting point is 00:37:22 And that's the Cyberwire. For links to all of today's stories, check out our daily briefing at the Cyberwire. dot com. We'd love to hear from you. We're conducting our annual audience survey to learn more about our listeners. We're collecting your insights through the end of August. There's a link in the show notes. Please do check it out. N2K's senior producer is Alice Carruth. Our Cyberwire producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher, and I'm Dave Bittner. Thanks for listening. We'll see you

Starting point is 00:37:58 back here tomorrow.

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