CyberWire Daily - Sisters, grifters, and shifters. [Hacking Humans Goes to the Movies]

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

Thanks for joining us again for another episode of fun project brought to you by the team of Hacking Humans, the CyberWire's social engineering podcast. Hacking Humans co-host Dave Bittner is joined by Rick Howard in this series where they view clips from their favorite movies and television shows with examples of the social engineering scams and schemes you hear Dave and co-host Joe Carrigan talk about on Hacking Humans. In this episode, Dave and Rick watch each of the selected scenes, describe the on-screen action for you, and then they deconstruct what they saw. Grab your bowl of popcorn and join us for some fantastic scams and frauds. On this episode, Dave and Rick are joined by guest contributor Amanda Fennell. You can find Amanda on Twitter at @Chi_from_afar. Links to this episode's clips if you'd like to watch along: Dave's clip from the movie Zombieland Rick's clip from the movie Traveller Amanda's clip from the movie The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to the Movies. I'm Dave Bittner, and joining me is my Cyber Wire colleague, Rick Howard. Hello, Rick. Hey, Dave. How's it going? Going well, thank you. On this show, Rick and I look at some of our favorite clips from cinema and television, clips which demonstrate some of the scams and schemes that Joe Kerrigan and I talk about on Hacking Humans. And our special guest this episode is Amanda Fennell from Relativity. Amanda, welcome. Woof, woof. I'm here. Let's do it. Welcome, Amanda.

Yay. We're trying to get this done. I'm glad you're here. I know. Yes. Yes, indeed. All right. We've got some fun clips to share, so stay tuned. We will be right back after this message from our show's sponsor. Transat presents a couple trying to beat the winter blues. We could try hot yoga.

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All right, we are back and I am going to kick things off for us this time. and I am going to kick things off for us this time. My clip I'm going to start off with is from the 2009 comedy horror film, Zombieland. Have either of you seen this film? Great choice. Anything with zombies. It's fantastic. Amanda, are you a zombie fan?

I am a huge fan. Okay. So in this scene, we've got a pair of con artist sisters whose name in the film are Wichita and Little Rock. They had creative parents, I guess. And they're executing what's known as a violin scam. And this is where someone convinces another person that something of value has been lost. And this scene takes place at a gas station. And Emma Stone and Abigail Breslin are the scamming sisters. And we start off with

Emma Stone is at this gas station. And she's got her car parked in front of the gas pumps. And she is down on her hands and knees searching for something, and that is where the clip begins. I'll roll it now. Uh, what are you looking for? My engagement ring. I took it off to pump my gas. She's in distress.

Let's just say. I put it in my purse, but it must have fallen out. And I'm late for my flight, and I'm... Listen, I'll find your ring, and I'll FedEx it to you. I'll give you a reward. That still be silly. $3,000. It's worth more than my car. $3,000? Just give you a reward. That still be silly. $3,000. It's worth more than my car.

$3,000? Just give me your number. I'll find it. Yeah, I'll start looking for it right now. Yeah, because I got nothing else to do. I was engaged once, but I'm single now. I'm so surprised.

Shocked, I say. Hope you make your flight. That guy probably hasn't had a date in 10 years. But I know it's around here somewhere. She's on a plane. That's the beauty of it. Let me call you back. Hey, you found my ring!

Thanks, I've been looking all over for it. Your ring? It was my friend's. You know, I'm gonna send it to her. Do I get a reward? 40, 60, 80, 400. That's it. That's the whole register. You made someone very happy.

You too. Oh. Nice. How many left? Let me see. Enough for us to get to California. Someday I want to ring this bag. For the low price of 30 bucks.

Sold. All right, what do you guys think? Oh, man, I got to tell you. So if I remember correctly, they're named that because that's where they're from. Like that's their city. I think that's like why they were named these things or whatever, but it always reminds me of like the importance that you learned from the early on one from sneakers is that it's all about stress with humans, right? It's always about the stressful situation that makes us do foolish things. So, Rick, I don't know what your first takeaway is, but my first one is that it's always about the

emotion and the acting that takes place that in order to pull on those heartstrings. Well, what got me was Emma Stone, who, can I say this on a public podcast? She's looking fine. Okay. I know. I girl crush on her. Easy on the eyes. Yeah. I know. Right? I girl crush on her. Easy on the eyes. Yeah.

Yeah. She's on her hands and knees as the gas station attendant walks out. Okay. That's an easy mark in my mind. Wearing a pair of Christian Louboutin shoes, by the way. I saw the red bottom soles. So, yeah. She's obviously putting across the idea that she has wealth and opulence. She's got a BMW.

She's got an expensive, supposedly $3,000 ring. Like, I don't know guys, my, my diamond ring is a lot more than that. So I'm wondering like, well, that's the reward she offers.

Yeah. She, she says the ring is worth more than her car. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that would indicate, you know,

above 20, 30 grand, something like that. So, well, that looks like a six series, but, Oh no,

actually. So I, you know, I love cars. So, like, it was a more recent model of the BMW, at least $55,000. Yeah, yeah. So, she very quickly says, I'll give you $3,000 for it, and the guy is taking it back just for a second, and he sees the money. It's like the old Bugs Bunny cartoons where the dollar signs are in the guy's eyes, right? You get to see it happening. That's going to be some easy money for him. That's right. Right. Well, so Dave, why is this called the violin scheme? Is that what it is?

It's called the violin scam because I guess originally back when people started doing it, the object of value was a violin. Someone would, you know, say, oh, I lost my violin. I left my violin behind somewhere or if you find my violin. I thought it was because they were singing, they were crying because they'd lost something invaluable, like, you know, like, you know, play a violin of sorrow for me. So I love yours better. Could be. That's my understanding. But of course, you know, these things are often, the stories behind them are often lost to history. But, you know, it's interesting how they both, the two gals who are involved in this scam, obviously they're in cahoots together.

And then the other, the younger woman comes in and she gets her $400. Because the guy thinks that he's going to get three grand. So $400 for the ring. Easy calculation. But that's the actual scam, right? The two of them make it off with $400, I guess less than an hour. And you can do well with that. I think so.

And what'd she say? At least 30 more? Is that what she said? Well, that's the part I like the best. When they got back to the car, she goes, how many more rings we have left? And they pull out an envelope of 30 of these cheap rings, right? It's like, oh, my goodness. That's a big payday at the end if you get money, $400 for each one of those.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they had it down, and they're good at it. You can totally see how this one could work. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I know, but I mean, like, I feel like I'm looking back to try to remember if I've ever fallen for something like this, but yeah. So I do think it is one of those just infallible problems with human beings that we all have, like, we want to be helpful. We want to be helpful. We want to help somebody who's in distress.

But certainly, if you're preying upon somebody who would find Emma Stone attractive, they're definitely going to want to help. Which is most human beings. Most human beings, yeah. I will say, I brought her up one time with my husband because I love her. And he was like, I don't see it. And I was like, you're lying. Come on, you're lying. But yeah, so I agree with Emma Stone. I think one of the important things here is that first, the guy lying. But yeah. So I agree. I think the important,

one of the important things here is that first the guy's coming out just trying to help her. Maybe he's going to, you know, get a chance with her. And then he like on a dime, he turns on her and says, Oh, I'm going to scam her on this. Right. So I think that's an important piece of this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I will share with you guys. I did fall for one of these once Amanda, you asked. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I will share with you guys. I did fall for one of these once, Amanda. Oh, no.

You asked. Yeah. There's a variation of this scam. It's similar to this scam, and you see it happening a lot these days. Someone will pretend to be broken down on the side of the road at an off-ramp from a highway. They'll pretend to be broken down on the side of the road at an off-ramp from a highway. So as you're coming off the highway, they flag you down, and they ask you for money to get some gas. They say they're out of gas.

But they offer you something of value, a gold ring, a gold chain, something like that in exchange for the money. And I stopped to help someone who was flagging me down. I was trying to be helpful, and we went through this whole thing, and he offered me his gold ring and a gold chain. And I said, no, no, no. I said, why don't you just let me drive you to the gas station, and I'll get you some gas, and we'll come back. I'm happy to do that. I'm not in a hurry. And then we can get you the gas and off your way. And he had every, oh no, my, my wife and my baby are in the car. And, uh, you know, I just, I'll just walk and

this and the other thing. So I ended up giving him $20 and I said, no, I don't need your ring. I don't need your, you know, thank you for your good faith offer, but I don't need those things. Here's some money. Good luck to you. And off I went. And only later did it hit me. And I went, you know what? But here's the thing, Joe, Joe and I have talked about this on Hacking Humans a lot, that I have made the deliberate decision that I would rather go through life occasionally being scammed by people and being okay with it than going through life cynically believing that everyone is out to scam me.

I'm with you, Dave. I'm not going to worry about that. You gave 20 bucks to help somebody. Okay. It doesn't matter if he was trying to scam you or not. Okay. Right. You, uh, you, uh, you lied and you, uh, elevated your soul a little bit that day. So what do you think of that, Amanda? Was I just being a fool or? No, no. I think it's, it's odd to have three security people on a podcast and we're all like optimists, but yeah, I also, yeah. Like why are we all optimistic? I don't know, but I will say there's this great, like a mantra or something

that was like a saying that somebody once told me, I was starting to try to do investments. And he gave me this one piece of advice, this guy named Chris and he goes, Amanda, never put anything on the line. You're not willing to lose. And I think it's the same. Like, so you lost 20 bucks, but you were willing to lose it. And so it's okay. And I think that that's really where you make the cost benefit analysis of like, sure, maybe you're being scammed, but you were okay with giving $20 towards that. And so you never put anything on the line you're not willing to lose and that's fine. Yeah. That's a great way to frame it. All right.

Well, that is my clip this week. Rick, we are going to move on to you because your clip this week is remarkably similar to mine. Unplanned. Okay. No, we did not coordinate this for better or for worse. So what do you have going on here? Yeah, my clip this week is from the 1997 movie called Traveler, okay, directed by Jack Green. You guys probably know him as a cinematographer from Unforgiven, the great Clint Eastwood movie. And it stars the late great Bill Paxton, best known for, you know, my favorite movies like Aliens and Tombstone and Apollo 13.

And a very young Mark Wahlberg, best known for Boogie Nights and The Departed, in my mind. And one more, and I always mispronounce her name. Maybe you guys can help me. Her name is Juliana Margulies, best known for the TV show ER. Do you know, are you familiar with her, Amanda? Yeah. Yeah, I watched ER when it was a thing. Like, you know, I think I was like 14.

I was totally watching it. But when George Clooney was first on scene, man. Oh, there you go. That's right. Yeah, I was a few years older. Yeah, no kidding. I think she's probably better known now for being the star of the show The Good Wife. That's right.

That's right. Exactly right. So the movie's about a young man, Wahlberg. And this, like I said, remember, it's a very young Wahlberg who reestablishes some old family ties with a clan of gypsy-like grifters in rural North Carolina. And so this is the perfect movie for hacking humans, ghosts in the movies. It's about a giant family of con men and women, right? So this clip is Wahlberg's first successful grift as part of the Klan.

Now, remember, like I said, Wahlberg is young and he walks into a local dive bar wearing a brand new suit, not an expensive suit, more like a suit you get off the rack at Walmart, but a new suit. And he looks a bit naive and Margulies is tending the bar. So play the first part of this, Dave. All right. What can I get you? A martini, please. This ain't exactly the Ritz. You want to order something normal? Pardon me. A bottle of butter would be fine. Where are you from? Atlanta. What's up here on business? butter be fine where are you from Atlanta

what's up here on business what kind of business you in jewelry ain't you kind of young to be out on the road selling my dad owns a company oh it's nice to have a leg up huh yeah I guess that's nice it's been in my family for years. Beautiful. It's $2 for the beer. All right, stop it there, Dave. So these are the preliminaries. It's called playing the con in the con man biz, basically befriending the victim. Wahlberg is establishing himself as a young man with money in the jewelry business and shows Margulies what

appears to be an expensive pin in his lapel, which becomes important later. He's a big tipper and buys a round for the patrons in the bar. All right, roll the next piece. Thanks. Jewelry business is treating you pretty good. Well, I guess I like to spread it around. That's nice. I can use it. Why don't you go and set them up all around? The rest is for you. Wow. Thanks a lot.

Hey, thanks, buddy. Thanks, man. Hey, you okay? No, my stick pin is gone. I can't find it. Well, it's got to be around here somewhere. I looked. Somebody must have walked off with it.

Uh-uh. Nobody here do that. Did you look over by the bar? No. All right, stop it there, David. All right, this part's called the tale. Wahlberg tells Margulies that he's lost his very expensive lapel pin, and everybody in the bar stops what they're doing and looks for it.

All right, roll the clip again. This old man gave it to him. Listen, I'm going to be here for a couple of days. I'm staying at the Sunset Motel. You know where it is? Yeah, sure. It's right down the street. days. I'm staying at the Sunset Motel. You know where it is? Yeah, sure. It's right down the street. Room 125. My name's Jim Tom Clark. Can you remember it? Sure. Jim Tom Clark, room 125. Listen, I gotta get it back. I'll pay $1,000 cash if you find it. No questions asked.

Well, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for it. I'm gonna check back tomorrow. If it turns up you call me, I'll come right back over. All right, remember, $1,000 cash to anybody who finds it If it turns up, you call me. I'll come right back over. I remember. $1,000 cash to anybody who finds it. All right. Stop there, Dave. Does this sound exactly like Zombieland?

Yeah. All right. Well, and so it's interesting to me that he kind of, he announces to everybody at the bar. Yeah. of an he announces to the everybody at the bar yeah who he's already uh made friends with by buying everybody around all the regulars that there's a thousand dollars cash in play here if anybody finds this pin and do i have that right yep yeah when when he leaves the bar everybody gets on their hands and knees and starts looking for this thing because they know money is in the bag if they can just find it so what ends ends up happening? Well, we're going to get to that. So Wahlberg goes back to his hotel where his partner Bill Paxton is waiting and then

sends Paxton in to finish the con. Paxton goes to the bar, buys a beer from Margulies and pretends to drop something on the floor. When he comes back, he has the pin, Wahlberg's lapel pin, in his hands. Margulies sees her opportunity and asks Paxton to meet her at the end of the bar, away from the ears of everybody, and tries to con on her own. Okay, roll this last piece. That's mine. Really? Oh yeah, I've been looking for it all night. My daddy gave me that pin. It's been in the family forever. You don't believe me.

I don't believe this. Why'd you move me down the bar then? You think I want them knowing my business? There'd be no end to it, just be one thing after the next. Now, can I have my pen? I believe I deserve a reward. Okay, okay, that's fair. I'll give you five dollars. That's a little cheap, isn't it? Okay, ten. That's a little cheap, isn't it? Okay, ten. You know what I think? What?

I don't think this is your pen at all. I think you're trying to put one over on me. You're starting to make me mad. Is it ten? A hundred dollars. I don't think so. This looks like money to me. I'm going to go call the police. $200.

Now it gets interesting. $400. No. $500. Hey, you just said $400. Then I said $500. $600. Now wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Are you finished? I'll give you $500. And that's just for the sentimental value. Honey, you are as cute as all get out. You're traveling in some pretty hot cotton. Where are you going to get $500? I'll get it. We got a deal. Okay, you're traveling in some pretty hot cotton. Where are you going to get $500? I'll get it.

We got a deal. Okay, you can stop it there, Dave. She pulls the money out of the till, okay, gives him the money, and Paxson walks out. And then those two, Wahlberg and Paxson, make a run for it, and she's out all that money, right? It's the exact same scam that we just saw in Zombieland. I love that. Have you guys seen that movie before? I had not seen that movie before, but I have a lot to say about this.

Dave, have you seen this movie before? No, this movie is new to me. I'd never seen it before. When I saw Wahlberg and Paxson, I said, I'm in. All right. So what do you think, Amanda? What's your first thought here? So what's interesting, you know, sometimes i feel like it's an orchestra of words and so you know you said the summary of this was about grifting because they're like a family of like

vagabonds grifters that kind of thing or whatever so the term grifts i'm familiar with uh but and it's because my stepmother is actually Dutch. And the Dutch word that this is derived from, supposedly, is actually a Dutch word called graakt, which means like digging, like to dig your own grave kind of thing. And so the exchange between these people really does feel like you're digging a grave, like you're going deeper and deeper. So that was like one thing that kind of flowed back and forth from it. The other thing is that whenever they're negotiating, whenever Bill Paxton's negotiating and he goes up, that is 100% what I do every time I'm negotiating. If somebody doesn't give me what I want,

I go up another 100. And they're always like, that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. It's how it works for me. Should have taken the first offer. and you'd be surprised how quickly people grab on because they don't want it to go any higher they're like fine fine fine that's fine we'll do that so i thought that was awesome any thoughts there dave well it was interesting to me that as you would expect being the professional grifter that paxton had the edge here, right? As Amanda was saying, by upping the value every time, you know, he was putting the emotional pressure on. He was turning up the heat on her to make this end, to make the bleeding end. And she fell for it. I want to go back to something that Amanda said, the human nature of this, right? You know, Margulies goes, I'm going to call the police and get you out of here.

And then two beats go by and then she makes another offer, okay, for 200 bucks or something like that. It's like, oh, okay, I see where this is. That is awesome. So I guess the only thing is she took the 500 or whatever it was out of the till. Is that what happens in the movie? Yeah, out of the till. Which is the same thing the gas station guy did. Yep, exactly the same. Right, exactly the same.

Yeah, that's a good point. So not only did they lose the money, but they're probably going to lose their jobs. She does. She absolutely gets fired. And then a whole romance starts between Paxton and Margulies because he feels bad that he, you know, fired, got her fired. So, but that's another story. Well, it's a movie. All right.

Well, I think it's fascinating to me that we have these two clips from two very different movies, but it is the same scam in both of them just played out in a different way. Amanda, why don't you take us out of here today? What do you have to share with us? All right. So I am going to use a really short clip, actually. I think it's like 30 seconds. It's not very long. But a lot of people have thought about like the girl with the dragon tattoo.

And I remember this very vividly in 2009 when this first version came out, not the Daniel Craig one with the dragon tattoo. Uh, and I remember this very vividly in 2009, when this first version came out, not the Daniel Craig one, the original one, when this came out on record here, the better, the better one, right. Um, this particular movie had come out and it was, it's in Swedish, but, um, the reason why I remember this movie so well, and I haven't seen it since 2009, which is why it's hard for me to find the scene that I was looking for. I remember watching this movie and I don't know if you sit with your family

when they see anything with computer hacking, they always look at you like, is this accurate? And this movie was one of the first. I always tell them it is. Whatever is going on, totally accurate. Exactly. That's exactly.

Swordfish, 100%. That's what happened. 100%, yeah. That's exactly. Swordfish. A hundred percent. That's what happened. A hundred percent. Yeah. Enhance. Magnify. So this particular movie has a few different things, but I'm just going to show one clip that kind of gives you a taste of it.

But to set the stage at this point, we basically have a 2009 Swedish Danish thriller, if you will, with a German producer. And the main character is essentially played by Noomi Rapace, I think is how we pronounce her name, potentially. I don't know. Rapace? Yeah, Rapace might be right. I think you're right. It might be. I'm hoping. But so Lisbeth Salander is basically a freelance kind of investigator, if you will. She's got a really crazy background. Really lauded in a lot of the books.

And then later in the movies about her hacking skills. So we're just going to look at about 30 seconds of what that looks like and how that displays on film. And then I'm going to pull apart a little bit what we think about this. All right. Here's the clip. All right, here's the clip. Lots of pictures taken. Rapachi's doing something with her laptop, getting the photos on. Thousands, it looks like.

Code. On the laptop. Financial records, names. Wow. Okay. I don't know what's going on there, but it's exciting. I know. Okay, so I'm going to pull this apart for you both in case you haven't seen it or it's been a while since you've seen it. So the difficulty that we have with this is a few things.

But the way that this is depicted is that she just naturally is able to pull in, as you mentioned, like thousands of photographs she just took on surveillance. And then she uploads it. There's tons of metadata that just naturally comes up whenever she opens all these pictures. But some of the other issues that we have is that, as will come about later in this movie, is that there's apparently no point-to-point encryption. So she basically will just look for a directory and then just go on to it with no problem

for Wunderstrom, who is the person she's investigating. But these people are well-known in the financial world. They would have had some method of encryption naturally. And naturally like SSL and TLS is not like a crazy technology. Everyone uses that. Everything is encrypted in transit with this kind of information.

So the problem we have is that there's accuracy with the way that this picture, this movie depicts a lot of different things. It is eclectic. It takes a lot of different things to It is eclectic. It takes a lot of different things to pull things together, to put together the pictures of an investigation. But the difficulty is speed is never correct in these movies because they have a short amount of time to get the point across. And then they try to exploit things that are just fundamental

security that we're using. Encryption is just fundamentally something that we're using a lot of times and it's like a natural default. So that's my answer. I put it forth to you too. I will counter that you're assuming that people in the finance industry know how to use their own tools. Okay, so that has not been my experience. All right, I'm just going to throw that out there.

I'll say that one of the things, first of all, Amanda, I agree with everything you're pointing out here, but one of the things that struck me in watching this clip is that they use the old trope that you see whenever there's a hacker doing anything on a computer, which is that not only do computer monitors display everything you're working on, but they project it onto your face. Oh, yeah. Okay, I hadn't thought about that. But I thought you were going to say it was the old adage

that they were going to play Rage Against the Machine while she's hacking. But yes, so valid point. I thought you were going to mention that she's probably one of the first hackers in the movies that wore hoodies, okay? Because she's absolutely doing that too. All right, so. So the other thing, and I couldn't find the clip in order in time for us because i really wanted to go over this one um talking about this encryption being broken the best part that i remember from

this movie and i know it's in the book and i believe it's transferred to the movie she has to get onto someone's computer so she goes to a hotel but she has a friend of hers go and do a man in the middle attack and so i thought that was one of the best things to display about the security industry is that it's never something you go alone. You typically have to pull in a friend that happens to know a different skillset. And so any of this, like you have to leverage what you can leverage to get what you're trying to get. And it's rarely going to be a unicorn of one person who can do everything. And I think that that was the one thing

I liked from these movies. And I didn't see all of them, but this first one, the dragon tattoo, the growth of the dragon tattoo, I do think did a really good job of showing that hacking is not simple. It takes time. This particular clip's not great at it.

The other ones are i swear just take my word for it and uh and you have to have a team effort i remember when the we when my i was telling you guys before we started the show my daughter turned me on to this movie back and back then all right so went and watched it loved it yeah 2009 right and uh and then i said i gotta read the book, thinking that it was going to be all about this hacking stuff. And the hacking stuff doesn't show up in the book until like the last 20 pages or whatever it is. All right, so it's still great.

It's still great. Horrible story, but yeah. Dave, what was your experience with this? Have you seen this movie? No, I have not. Oh, my goodness. Sorry. Did you see the Daniel Craig one?

Are you a complete newbie here, Dave? No, I have not seen the... Oh, don't bother. I'm certainly familiar with the name of the film. It's an iconic name, and I know it seems that people who... This movie is kind of like black licorice. People who like this movie really like this movie. But no, if you've recommended, I will have to check it out. Maybe I'll do that over the holidays.

I don't know if I'd recommend it. There's a reason why. It is a really graphic, violent movie and really bad murder is taking place in it. So if that's not your cup of tea, if you're not a Hannibal kind of fan, then you might want to pass. I remember when it came out, most people were turned off because you had to read the subtitles.

But now that we've been doing the pandemic for so long and everybody watches movies in my age with subtitles on, it doesn't matter at all. I got to tell you, I'm one of those people that's like, I put subtitles on for everything. I always have. Everything. Yeah.

Yeah. All right, friends. Well, lots of good stuff this time through. Thank you both for taking the time and selecting these great clips. Of course, Rick Howard, always a pleasure to have you be a part with us here. And our very special guest, Amanda Fennell from Relativity. Thank you so much for joining us this week. Thanks, Amanda. That was fantastic.

Thanks. Thank you. Information Security Institute for their participation. You can learn more at isi.jhu.edu. The Hacking Humans podcast is proudly produced in Maryland at the startup studios of DataTribe, where they're co-building the next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies. Our senior producer is Jennifer Iben. Our executive editor is Peter Kilby. I'm Dave Bittner. And I'm Rick Howard. Thanks for listening.