Dan Wootton Outspoken - ANN WIDDECOMBE KILLED AFTER BEING HIT 21 TIMES IN THE HEAD WITH HAMMER AS FARAGE SLAMS COVER UP

Episode Date: July 22, 2026

BREAKING TODAY: The horror surrounding the murder Ann Widdecombe grows. The Reform UK star was brutally murdered after being hit over the head 21 times with a hammer as she ate lunch at her beloved home, a court heard. Joshua Kerry has been remanded in custody. We’ll reveal the shocking details. BUT FIRST: Farage demands a general election as the Reform UK leader says Andy Burnham’s overthrow of the UK government is a “deeply troubling coup”. And there is growing fury over the hypocrisy of Labour for making a convicted criminal fraudster the effective deputy Prime Minister while demanding the cancellation of Tommy Robinson and Reform’s Posh George for similar crimes. But Louise Haigh, with her new toned down hairstyle, just wants you to feel sorry for her. And despite Burnham’s Pollyanna-ish promises, Labour has descended into civil war in less than 24 hours with Slippery Starmer’s main ally brutally exposing the new PM’s dodgy plans, as other Ministers let loose on the British Bashing Corporation. To discuss it all on the Superstar Panel today: Dr David Starkey CBE of the YouTube channel David Starkey Talks and Lois Perry, Director of Heartland for UK and Europe. PLUS: Nigel Farage reveals why he rejected funding from Elon Musk over demands from the Space X boss to publicly support Tommy Robinson and mass deportations. AND: Prince Harry wages a new battle against the UK government under the new Prime Minister Burnham, as the Home Office reveals its anger about the Duke’s emotional blackmail to pressure it into a security U-turn. THEN IN THE ROYAL UNCANCELLED AFTERSHOW: Prince Harry plots to move back to the UK part-time as the veil falls off his marriage to Meghan Markle. We’ve have all the latest with royal YouTube sensation P-Dina. To watch in full, please subscribe at https://www.outspoken.live LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for new videos every day: https://youtube.com/@danwoottonoutspoken?si=-2BhmEbBSN1fyESS?sub_confirmation=1 ---------- Find the full audio show wherever you get your podcasts: Apple — https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dan-wootton-outspoken/id1762436723 Spotify — https://open.spotify.com/show/19Ltoneek2MSPL10CpSA1J?si=8f6d84e2db56448c ---------- Follow Dan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@outspokendan Follow Dan on Twitter: https://x.com/danwootton Follow Dan on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danwootton/ Follow Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danwootton/?hl=en #DanWootton#DanWoottonOutspoken#news#outspoken#uknews Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. If you want a $3,000 a month payday for life, what would you feel free to do? Maybe take a long weekend, every weekend, or try a bunch of new hobbies?

Would you feel free to upgrade and listen ad-free? Don't worry, we get it. Every $20 ticket could win you $3,000 a month for life and supports life-saving cancer research at the Princess Margaret. Feel free to buy your payday for life ticket today. Raffle number 155-214. Please play responsibly. No spend, no bias, no sense. I'm Dan Wooden. This is outspoken episode number 543. And breaking today, this is difficult for me to report, but I will because I must. The horror surrounding the murder of my friend and colleague Anne Whittickham grows. The Reform UK star was brutally murdered after being hit over the head 21 times with a hammer. We learned today as she ate lunch at her.

beloved home. Joshua Kerry has been remanded in custody. The shocking details are Nigel Farge's reaction in the digest next. Also coming up, Farage demands a general election as the reform UK leader says Andy Burnham's overthrow of the UK government is a deeply troubling coup. And there is growing fury over the hypocrisy of Labour for making a convicted criminal. Fraudster, the effective Deputy Prime Minister while demanding the cancellation of Tommy Robinson and Reform UK's posh George for similar crimes. But Louise Haig, with her new toned-down hairstyle, just wants you to feel sorry for her.

It was a really stupid mistake. I genuinely thought it had been stolen when I had my handbag mugged and when I later found it, I didn't correct it. And believe me, Victoria, I've regretted it every day since. And I hope viewers will recognise that I have more than paid the money. the price for that mistake. That's before you get to the Fury over the return to the housing brief of Red Rainer the Tax Evader and Ed Miliband to the foreign office, despite calling Donald Trump a racist. What is objection about him? His racism, his misogyny, his incredibly

peculiar relationship with Russia. And the truth? And the truth, most of all the truth. Despite Burnham's polyanarish promises, Labour has descended into full on civil war in less than 24 hours, with Cypri Stama's main ally brutally exposing the new PM's dodgy plans, as other ministers let loose on the British Bashing Corporation. Isn't it awful? There's too much blood in the carpet, and specifically we can't believe Rachel, at Reeves, the Chancellor, has been replaced by a bloke. And he's walked into a ready-made government. He wasn't there. He didn't have to do the hard lifting. And you remember when I was on before and I said, I need to pipe down. No wonder after just today, Burnham is feeling a lot less.

Well, hopeful after bringing back hope. I talked yesterday outside in Downing Street about bringing back hope. And that's got to be us, isn't it? We've got to do that. Okay. So to discuss all of it today, the dynamic duo return to the superstar panel, Dr David Starkey, CBE of the year. YouTube channel, David Starkey Talks, and Lois Perry, director of Heartland for UK and Europe.

Also coming up on the show today, Nigel Farage reveals why he rejected funding from Elon Musk over demands from the Space Xbox to publicly support Tommy Robinson and mass deportations. Then in the Royal Uncanceled After Show on Substack, Prince Harry plots to move back to the UK part-time as the veil falls off his marriage to Megan Markle will have all of that with Royal YouTube Sensation P-Dyna. Brand new Greatest Britain and Union Jackass. You can vote right now, by the way, for the worst Britain in the world today. That's in the live chat on Substat. But here are our nominees.

Dr. Stunky has gone for Andy Burnham. He says Andy Burnham, no mandate with country clearly not behind him, polling a mail on Sunday saying the public want general election, saying he won't wear a suit and tie for all his work engagements, putting hope, not hate people at the heart of government. when they openly call for those on the right to be targeted, including Anne Whittickham. Lois Perry has nominated Ed Miliband. She says he is a foreign secretary through her work with the Heartland Institute.

She has constantly challenged his net stupid policies, how he's going to deal with the oil producer companies, and she says she is very concerned about him dealing with his master's China. And I've nominated Louise Haig, because do we really need this woman? As Deputy Prime Minister, you be the judge. Get voting. I will bring you the results at the end of today's show.

But now, let's go. Okay, so this one is very hard, but very necessary because of the way the mainstream media and political class have conspired to, I think, virtually end-all discussion about the assassination of Anne Whittickham that was most likely a politically motivated terror attack. Today, we finally learned in court that 13 days ago as my friend and colleague moved out of her beloved office, lined with all of her handsawed documents, having finished that now famous interview with Christian Radio to sit down and eat her lunch.

A man who prosecutors and police believe was Joshua Kerry pulled up into her driveway. They revealed in court, they believed that he almost immediately went through the front door and within two minutes had hit her on the top of her head 21 times with a hammer. Before he left the property, he tipped her out of her chair and he took the wallet from her handbag. The conjecture would be was that so that it looked like a burglary gone wrong. and he immediately drove away and drove the length of the country back to his house. There is very little doubt about these details, because we also learn today this chilling, alleged murder, was captured on a video camera that Anne had installed within her home, no doubt for security reasons.

So it's a difficult one this. we have to obviously understand that there are a huge amount of contempt of court laws in this country. So let me just take you through the Reuters report from court. And they report that the bearded 28-year-old, who appeared in the dock at London's Westminster Magistrate's court wearing a grey track suit, was not asked to enter a plea. But at a later hearing at the old Bailey court, he was remanded in custody until his next appearance in October. The prosecutor Kashiv Malik had come armed with all of these new details and he was the one who confirmed that it was a camera inside the house that captured the attack.

Whittaker, of course, had been due to be interviewed. This is from the Reuters report live on television on July 8th from her home but did not appear, Malik explained. The following day, her personal assistant asked her gardener to check on Wittickham and it was the gardener who found her on the kitchen floor. Malik told the court that the recovered footage showed Kerry, this is Joshua Kerry, entering Whitakins home while she was eating lunch and asking her,

don't suppose you have bank cards and ID. Kerry, who was wearing black gloves and holding a hammer to his side so it was hidden from Whitakam's view, then struck her 20. times, Malick said. He added that Kerry had tipped Whitakin out of her chair onto the floor before taking her wallet and leaving, having been in the property for approximately two minutes. Then we come to the discovery of Anne's body, and you'll remember she had been due to appear on a Channel 5 show produced by Jeremy Vine's team. And they tried to contact Ms. Whitakam through her personal assistant who then asked the family gardener to check on her.

her. Prosecutors said he found the politician lying face down on her kitchen floor with a serious head injury the next day. A provisional cause of death was given to the court as a blunt force injury to the head. Now there's two reactions to this horror, isn't there? Obviously, it's unthinkable to contemplate the nature of the death, knowing the terror that Anne would have been in that moment. I mean, I always thought knowing Anne, oh my gosh, she would have tried to reason with this man. And clearly there was no reasoning with him. It was all done so quickly. But we don't know the pain that Anne may have suffered in those final moments and if indeed she was dead when he left the property. As Pearce Morgan put it in just four words,

alongside a prayer emoji, my God, poor Anne. But there is also the growing sense of a sophisticated establishment cover up here. Why is it taking so long to know these details? How the hell did the police arrest the wrong man? Two days later, a delivery driver? When we now know there was footage of the attack. Why has Kerry still not been charged with terrorism? Given I first revealed he was a hard leftist with communist material in his home. And the son has also reported he appeared to have some sort of anti-forage shrine. Former GB News News News. us, Stephen Edgington pointed out, we are slowly getting the bruty details of how Anne Whitakin was murdered. The police must tell us about the political motivations of the alleged

killer. If Diane Abbott had been killed by a far right racist, you are sure we would know all the facts immediately. See Joe Cox, and we did. Richard Tice's worried fiancé Isabel Oakshot, right? It must have been completely obvious to police immediately that Anne Whittickham had been brutally murdered. The misinformation that followed over several days is inexplicable. Lawrence Fox added horrific. Why is this assassination being ignored? Once again, if this was someone who held differing opinions and morals, we would never hear the end of it. A grandmother of politics massacred. And all the media talks about is Andy's new cabinet. Shameful disrespect. And pointing to Reform UK slumping poll ratings, he added, I remember a Britain.

when we rallied around the party, who had one of their members brutally slain, rather than rallying around a party who gives softball interviews to jug ears, deeply unsurious Panto government working exactly as they predicted it would. Bravo, comrades. And then today Nigel Farage himself has weighed in. Posting on X, the details of Anne Whittickham's murder revealed in court are horrific. Why will no one report on Joshua Kerry's political views? Now, this is a very interesting one, and I know that it is something that the people at the top of Reform UK, having spoken to them myself, feel deeply frustrated about.

But I will reveal to them the answer, because it was provided, ironically, ironically, by the leftist ex-account Larry the cat, who lectured Farage, because it's important that perpetrators of horrific crimes are convicted and punished for that to happen. There needs to be a fair trial to establish guilt. It is grossly irresponsible for someone in your position to suggest others should jeopardise that. So what they want is silence. What they are demanding is silence. And increasingly, our authorities do hide, I believe, behind contempt of court to shut down debate, to shut down reporting. Reforms Matt Goodwin wasn't shutting up, though posting, I suspect the cause is left-winged extremism. But let's see. So what can we say? Well, having revealed that both the Prime Minister and the police chief wrongly tried to insist to Nigel Farage all weekend long after Anne's murder

that this was just a burglary gone wrong, he never accepted that, writing in a column for the sun. I have it on good authority that the murder suspect was a hard left activist. He attended various marches and hated anyone with an opposing view. He had expressed his hatred of me on more than one occasion. He was an intolerant individual obsessed with Soviet communism. He may also have been known to the authorities. And he told the independent trigonometry podcast

why he was convinced the police had got it wrong from the start. Do you know something that we don't about that matter? Yeah, yeah. If you demonise, if you demonise people because, I don't know, in Anne's case, they don't believe in gay marriage. Or they have strict views on abortion. or they believe in strict immigration controls.

If you absolutely dehumanise people like this, is it surprising that living out there in the subculture of those who spend their lives online and struggle to get on with other people, that this doesn't engender a form of hate? And, I mean, clearly Anne's murder is, a very, very deeply upsetting thing. And I've noticed, I mean, just interesting going around the doors

here in Clackson. People are really, really hit by it. I mean, just good ordinary folk are really hit by. I can't think of anybody more famous that's been murdered for decades and decades. So there is a direct link between the two. That was no question. And it was so interesting to see the police, Devon and Cornwall Police, or should we just call them what they are, plod? Absolute waste of space. I think they're still looking for somebody that could have committed the burglary, you know. I mean, they were so wrong about everything. Obvious to me, right from the first minute, this was politically motivated, premeditated assassination of a political figure. And I would argue back to your question, directly downstream of the kind of campaign that is being waged against the entire reform agenda by many online in mainstream media and in the House of Commons every single week.

Nigel also believes there is a huge amount of political hypocrisy going on here. he says if the murder suspect were a reform party member, there would be calls for the party to be shut down. Can you imagine if the murderer was a reform party member? I mean, we'd be closed down. We wouldn't even exist. And it's why when people say to me and commentators write, oh, well, Nigel Farage, you know, he's obviously losing his mind

because he's getting angry with journalists. Yeah, I am. I'm getting really angry with journalists, particularly Times journalists, who choose to publish photographs of where my daughter lives. You know, she's not a public figure. There is no public interest in this at all. And I see what happened to Anne five days after that program, and I begin to get very scared about things.

And he added that left-wing terrorism is now something we need to get used to, given the way mainstream leftist commentators now act. Yeah, we're not used to the concept in recent times at all of left-wing terrorism, but it's pretty clearly what it is. But, you know, Adam Bolton, Peter Tatchel, other well-known figures in the wake of Anne's murder, just saying the most beastly things about her. I mean, the old rule is if you can't say nice things about the dead, say nothing, which I think generally is actually quite a good rule.

And yet they so believe in their own righteous virtue, that they feel allowed to do these things. And I do not know of a single, significant conservative commentator, a small C conservative commentator who would ever say anything approaching that on the death of a senior left-wing public figure. If Jeremy Corbyn died, I'd say, well, I didn't agree with him, but you know what? The man believed in what he believed in

and fought for it for decades. So there was a very big difference here between how the right think and speak about the left and how the left, including public figures, now think and speak about the right. And the son's reporting suggests that what Nigel Farage has said is indeed correct. Sources said police discovered a mass of articles

at Joshua Kerry's address during his arrest. One source said the articles on the walls were all about reform UK leader Nigel Farage's party and their immigration policies. Other discoveries saw counterterrorism officers take overall charge with the police investigation. It would appear he had a profound dislike of the party, its leaders and its policies. To discuss today's breaking news further, Dr David Starkey and Lois Perry. Okay, so Dr. Stakey, there's obviously the devastating human tragedy today. and a lot of us have feared the state Anne was in when she was discovered, but to hear confirmation of the 21 hammer blows to the head is obviously incredibly difficult.

But what is also very difficult, David, is that covering this case in the United Kingdom now feels scary. I do know more about the alleged political leanings of this man. Nigel Farage wants people like me to report it, but you would acknowledge it is very difficult to do that given the way the government seems to use contempt of court laws to crack down on information being freely available after these types of cases. Yes, I mean, again, there is an awful smell, isn't there, of down of two tier, that if we We go back, for example, right to the beginning of the late premiership of Kyrsdamer, the Southport riots. He didn't hesitate for one second to say, these are wicked right-wing demonstrations.

We will come down with the full weight of the law. In other words, he actually condemned people before they were even in court. He said effectively an instruction to the police and the magistrates to use the policies which he devised back in court. 2011 at the time of those riots against the offenders. Really, I suppose what somebody should have done, but of course now long too late, would have been effectively to have prosecuted him under our contempt of court laws. He seemed to me to trespass. And there is, again, you haven't mentioned it, and I think it is worth thinking about. The charge of terrorism brought in as it was, allowed the detention of the suspect for how many days is it now, eight, nine days. Yes, and it can be up to

14. There are special rules which permit detaining without charge because the charge hearing has just taken place. Now, what was going on during that period? It was called the World Cup. There were gatherings of people in pubs. There were people out very late because matches were very late. And I would imagine, and do you know what, maybe I am speculating, maybe I'm speculating illegitimately. I think the delay that you've been talking about is again, how do we avoid public disorder during this period? It is perfectly clear. Absolutely. I think it's absolutely a considerable. It's a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, isn't it?

And the first weekend, David, it was also incredibly sunny. You know, it was a weekend. Look at what happened with Southport. But I think the real difference is it wasn't drip, drip, drip. We had false information to begin with. And then a long period of silence. But of course, it is also terribly convenient, isn't it? That the man is charged on the day the new prime minister.

In other words, the court hearing goes, you were saying now, who was it, was it Nigel had said, wasn't it disgraceful that we are focusing on the appointment of a new cabinet when this dreadful case comes to court? But of course we are, because without wanting to sound heartless, it is actually more important. But did we all know that the 20th was going to be the date that the new prime minister came in? I was able to plan a party a month ago on the assumption that it was on the 20th. I'm ashamed to say, you were saying the right wing doesn't celebrate deaths. I was celebrating the political death of Kirstland. We did a terrific party, last year. And we deserve that.

We deserve that. And Anne would fully sign up to that. But, you know, the wretched man is still alive. But there is a terrible sense, isn't there, of what we know about the Nudge unit, what we know about comms. And this is something we should be talking about a lot later. This Labour government believes supremely in comms. In other words, it leads bluntly about the manipulation of public opinion.

And this goes right back to Alistair Campbell. I mean, we saw their trigonometry with Nigel appearing before that very formidable pair of inquisitors. One of the previous people to sit in that seat very recently was Alistair Campbell, who was taken a part. But Campbell is the man, and can we just call it frankly, a culture of lying. We're not far propaganda. It's lying. It's a branch of the art of lying. And it's now deployed utterly shamelessly.

But David, you were effectively agreeing, though, that this is part of a sophisticated cover-up. No, it's not a, no, it's not a cover-up. And in other words, the man will be tried. The evidence is now public. What I'm talking about, the timing of it isn't cover-up. It's management. In other words, we mustn't have this during the World Cup. We don't want to give too much prominence to it.

So it comes out on the day that the old Prime Minister resigns, the new one is appointed. There's all the nonsense and pageantry of Buckingham Palace. And what is now the even sillier pageantry of the Prime Minister, the new Prime Minister, gnawing outside Downing Street, old pageantry and new pageantry. So it's deliberate,

it's deliberate containment of public opinion and the shaping of public opinion. That's how it's done. When we shift to talking about the incoming government, you, Lois, putting words in my mouth for the nomination of Andy Burnham, talked about this as a full blow in this coup. It's not.

It's one. one Labour faction, replacing another labour faction. Yes, and we will get to that because I know you disagree. You disagree with Farage on that. Just one second. Who will use the manipulation of public opinion to conceal the fact they have no new policies at all? No, no, indeed. And we are going to get to that because, of course, it is incredibly important.

But Lois, can we just talk about the human side of this? Okay, because, I mean, I know you were close with Anne too. She attended the launch of your Heartland Institute as one of the star guests. And I mean, it was such a great night. I remember looking after Anne that night and she was a bit like the queen, you know. We were bringing her champagne and bringing people to her. But she was such a vibrant, vibrant figure. Lois, this must hit you on a personal level there,

but also the fact that you are incredibly close to. Lots of senior people within Reform UK, including Nigel Farage, who now feel like their lives are on the line. You personally have been targeted, I believe, by hope not hate this organisation that had the cheek to target Anne Whitaker when she was alive. And then the moment she's assassinated, deleted the webpage designed to turn all the leftists against her. So from a human level, Lois. How do you feel about this news today? Well, first of all, I would just like to say that on a human level, I'm just going to do a nice positive story about Anne first.

She totally and utterly won over my nan and my mum at that event. They'd heard all sorts of stories in the 90s about the various things when she was famed secretariat and had a view. Let's put it like that. but Anne completely, completely, not just won them round. She didn't need to win them round, but they put it this way. They had, they just went away from the event saying, what a great, what a great woman, what a wonderful lady.

And she was very, very generous with her time with my son too. So, so that was lovely. On a personal level, for me personally, yes, I'm a peripheral figure, but I'm also having association with reform. and also I do work with Israel through my work, the reform friends of Israel and so I've been fortunate enough to have security put into my flat

but I had a call from the security company saying that they wanted to come round and basically turn up the volume turn up the volume in terms of the level of security at the flat. So yeah, but what I will say, I totally agree with David, as per usual.

And I handed you one of my nominees. That's why about Andy Burnham. We'll discuss that over dinner later when we go out. But, you know, basically, it's, yeah, it's just an absolute, absolute nightmare, the whole thing. Can I ask you about something else, David Starkey? And this is about trust now. because I believe the trust in police and authorities is collapsing and that is when you have potential societal decline,

potential civil war coming. I'm just going to give you one example, right? So many people today, David, saying something doesn't add up about this particular suspect. So look at this. This is a mainstream politician, Darren Grimes, of Reform UK, friend of mine, he is an elected Reform UK politician openly questioning the fact,

And David, I have had people all over the country from viewers of the show to very senior political figures saying, this doesn't add up. The picture of Joshua Kerry that was released looks nothing like the CCTV image that we were shown by the sun. And it now looks nothing like the court sketch today. Now, these people, David, are usually dismissed as conspiracy theorists, right? But do you understand that this sort of containment that you're talking about? talking about the silence, the delaying of information means that there are now a lot of people not even trusting the official version of this event whatsoever. They don't believe this is the guy. They think it's a cover-up already. Now, I don't have enough information to make a call either way,

but do you understand that there is now such a lack of trust in authorities and in the police? Yes, of course I do. Remember, I was one of the first to point out that the idea of two-tier is not simply an accident. It's not simply some silly policemen are more likely, and Lois will forgive me, some silly police woman, because the silliest things all seem to be carried out by these terrible fat, waddling police women

who, of course, couldn't actually arrest a real criminal to save their lives. It's all founded in law, unfortunately. We do have a two-tier structure of law. We also have what I talked about, length, maybe too much length just now, which is we have the deliberate manipulation of information. Now, is it done for a wicked purpose?

I don't actually really think it is. There is, it is a problem with a multiracial society as David Betts, a very distinguished professor of war study. And he thinks we're already in civil war. He, well, he thinks there are the, no, no, he doesn't. He says the preconditions are there and that we may be edging closer and closer. And what's going on is clearly an attempt at dampening down. But the problem is when you filter information and when you do it in a very, very one-sided way,

then of course people suspect not simply the fact that they're being manipulated, they suspect the truth of everything they're being told. And there's another even bigger issue down. We have a society like the old Soviet Union that is founded on big, lies, you know, that diversity is our strength, that multiculturalism is a wonderfully good thing, that, you know, that anti-Semitism only comes from the right has got absolutely nothing to do. Freedom is slavery. We have, curiously enough, quite a lot of Muslims in the country. You know, this sort of thing. There are deliberate big lies which are sold to, COVID was, of course, a monstrous,

sample of it. Once all these things accumulate, once you get the Henry Nowak affair, everything piles up. Each thing goes on another. And the trust, and remember, a decent society, a society, which as we used to have ever since the 19th century, with an unarmed police force, uniquely an unarmed police force, or I think maybe a couple of other countries in the world. And that depends on trust. It depends on the fact that we trust each other and that we broadly trust the state. But once the state has to start telling big lies, Plato, unfortunately, so much of this has got the highest backing, even at the highest level. Plato talks about a society depending on the noble lie. Well, that's exactly what we see. That in the name of protecting diversity,

in the name of stopping cultural tension clash between these famous communities, we've got to manipulate public opinion. But people see through it. And again, you know, both of you, we're all on roughly the same side politically. And the problem is that we are dealing with a world in which once you normalise the lie, you're lost. We can't conduct ordinary politics. You can't conduct ordinary conversation. Can I just interject just very briefly, just with regards to Sir David Amos' murder, talking about things not being quite what they seem.

Now, Katie Amos, his daughter, has fought very hard for an inquiry. And so far, all of her efforts, all of her hard work, has been to no avail. But there's something very interesting about the Sir David Amos murder. And I don't doubt for one second that the person that was convicted of the crime did it. But there were so many unanswered questions.

My ex-hus was the last meeting that Sir David Amos ever had. He was developing with Sir David, the Sir David Amos Children's Parliament, which is actually really successful venture. And Kenny Badenock is about to become the patron of it, actually. But he was the last meeting. It was a Zoom meeting that Sir David ever had.

He was murdered, I think, within minutes after the call. He sat down the guy and texted someone saying, it is done. My ex-husband was never interviewed, ever, and the footage was never asked for of the Zoom meeting, even though it was only two or three minutes before the murder of Sir David. There was no, who did he text? Who did he text? and say it was done because there was only one conviction.

And the other point I just very briefly wanted to make was when Joe Cox was murdered, they wasted no time whatsoever in telling us that the guy was far right, that he was this, he was that. So this whole thing about, oh, we need to be, we need to make sure that everything is done correctly for the court case. Whilst I do respect that enormously, because in spite of everything,

I still have the most extraordinary respect for the institutions in this country. You know, it's a, it is a bit strange, isn't it? Well, it is. And of course, we have to remember the fact, too. And we're going to need answers on some of this. You know, was it really a coincidence that Anne Whittickham was one of Sir David Amos's closest friends?

They were both lifetime patrons, Dan, of the right, they were the only two lifetime patrons of the Right to Life organisation. And Anne had obviously supported Katie Amos during all of this. And then they were at the unveiling of the statute. So there is so much more that we need to know. What's interesting is that the focus on Reform UK and Nigel Farage from the mainstream media

isn't ending up. The assassination of Anne Whitakam didn't stop for one moment, the desperate desire by the mainstream media and by the Westminster. establishment to destroy the reputation of this party. Now, I'm not saying there are no questions to answer, because of course, there are. But what's very interesting to me is that during Nigel Farage's appearance on the Trigonometry podcast, he said that the way you can know that he is a man who

will ever be bought is because when Elon Musk tried to buy him and tried to buy his public support of Tommy Robinson and tried to buy his public support of mass deportations, he said no. He said no to a lot more than maybe the $5 million from Christopher Harbourn. So look, it's not necessarily an argument that I agree with, but Lois Perry, Dr. David Starkey, will respond shortly. So to Tommy Robinson, but this is Nigel Farage's argument about why he cannot be bought. Nobody can buy me. nobody can bully me

nobody can tell me what to say you want some evidence of that Elon Musk who was holding out offers potentially of very large sums of money not for me but for the party but he asked me to do a series of things and say a series of things

what happened with Elon by the way why did you fall out because he wanted me to come out publicly and support Tommy Robinson and I said I can't do that I said, you know, he wanted me to come out and talk about deportations of illegals before we had a plan. You know, when you're beginning, you know, an agitator, you can say, let's deport the world. Right. Great for clicks.

If you're a political party leading the opinion polls for 350 consecutive opinion polls in a row, if you're going to make big statements like this, you need to show, you've done some maths, some homework and thought it through. Now, we did, in fact, in the end, a few months after the fallout with Musk, public operation restoring justice, was he a use for the head of it. Tommy Robinson watched that interview and responded directly, writing, so according to Nigel Farage, he thinks Elon Musk was bullying him by suggesting he shows support for my work and call for mass deportations.

He bottled both. Luckily, there's politicians like Rupert Lowe, who stepped over weak source, and Farage tried tarnishing him too. And there are lots of people on the political right who actually think that Farage has boasted about this as a strategic error, and it would have been much better, actually, from him to take the must money and support Tommy. Ricky Doolin, would have been good to ask him why he couldn't show support for Tommy, Robinson. If Nigel Farage had not only would he have had support from Eland, but from the millions of Brits,

that support Tommy. everyone would have got behind reform. And Lawrence Fox now Restore Britain member added, he should have come out and publicly supported Tommy Robinson because Tommy did all the heavy listing. But Nigel Farage is the king of cancel culture. Be careful what you wish for. So Dr. David Stucky, this was an interesting argument from Nigel Farage.

He's effectively saying, look, I can't be bought. Yes, Christopher Harbourn gave me the $5 million, but it was a gift and it was to pay for my security. And here's proof that I can't be bought. because Elon Musk tried to buy me, but he had the conditions and I wasn't prepared to go along with those conditions. Now, personally, I think those conditions

would have been great for Nigel and it was a big mistake that he turned down the Musk's support. But what do you make of it? Well, I suppose he would say that, wouldn't he, as someone once said. The argument against it is, of course, very simply, that the source of, or one of the major sources, Nigel's new money is, I'm afraid, those who deal in cryptocurrencies, and one of the things

that reform has done very prominently is to develop policies which are rather favorable to cryptocurrencies. So I'm afraid that does rather pull you off the high pedestal. I'm not saying the policies are wrong, then it's no longer, I suppose, than the extraordinary business, if you may remember at the beginning of the last Labour government, the governments of Tony Blair, when huge donations from Formula One somehow led to a suspension of a campaign against the banning of cigarette advertisements. Do you recall? Terribly convenient.

So it is the problem, isn't it, with politicians being pious? Everybody, to an extent, has got a finger in the pie because you depend on private funding. But unless, like the Labour Party, you're harnessed to the trade. You depend on big donations. And these whiffs come and go. And we're seeing that at exactly the same time, that reform is being targeted, in my view, correctly. I think Farad was very foolish not to have declared these things.

So he wasn't foolish to take the money he should have declared it when he became an MP. Is that your view? That's exactly right. No, that's precisely the point. Except, you know, if you look at it, the dates do. all look very awkward. I mean, they all side around, I think, is the 21st and 22nd of May, which is the moment when he decides to stand. So I think that it was badly handled. I think it was unnecessarily handled. I am not one to denounce political donations. They are necessary. I think

they're important. I think very often, and I see no reason to question the people who are backing reform. They're done out of a genuine sense of public interest, of public commitment. But, but, but you therefore have to be, that wonderful phrase, if you're Caesar's wife, you have to be above suspicion. Hands have to be kept clean. And it's very foolish, as it were, as I'm afraid, reform didn't do not to wash its hands publicly. You unnecessarily open yourself to suspicion. And I deeply regret this because I want a lively, vigorous competition of ideas on the right.

I mean, whatever the future fate of reform, whether it survives, whether it continues at its present level, it's played a vital part. And Nigel has played a vital part. But Dr. Starkey, people will be stunned to even... Rescuing conservatism. And... Yeah.

But you think this could kill reform off? There's a chance that it could kill reform off. No, he didn't say that. No, no, no, but I'm asking, Because you are at least raising the possibility. I think it very unlikely. Can I put it slightly differently, I think it very unlikely

that either reform as a party or Nigel as a person will emerge strengthened from the clact by election. I think that it will do harm and inevitably will do harm. I think the, in other words, what's happened,

and it's the first time really that Nigel has made a series of very obvious tactical missteps. In other words, the failure to declare these donations at the right time and then the rushing into the attempt at heading off the parliamentary inquiry, which, by the way, I do not believe civil servants should be investigating MPs. This seems to me to be yet another extension of the regulatory state that I very much disapprove of.

But it's an utterly transparent attempt to head in. off and to say, are the people have declared. But of course, it won't work like that, because the investigation will resume immediately afterwards. And it is very likely that on the present showing that he will be found to have broken the rules. And it's very likely, I would have thought, that the committee will enforce the maximum sanction of suspension from Parliament, which will result in possibility of a petition for yet another by-election, which will further a further tarnished thing. And I deeply, I want to emphasize again, I deeply deeply regret this because what we need

is a proper unity on the right and we need to use this extraordinary multiplication of parties we've just mentioned restore as it were to work out what we on the right should really be agreeing about, what the new fundamentals are, what the things that we've got to present hopefully as a reunited party to the British people to rescue us. from what we haven't even really talked about, the utter catastrophe of this new incoming government. No, and we're going to get to that. We are going to get to that.

Don't worry, because it's incredibly important, but I know Lois is absolutely chomping. Because you disagree. Don't you, Lois? Have you got Tommy Robinson on the same show as me without telling me? Is he coming on the show? I promise he's not. But I would love to see that.

Because you said we've got coming up Tommy Robinson. But you haven't set me up, have you? No, I promise not. Okay, all right. Okay, right. I would never do that. But actually it would be a fascinating debate. But no, don't be so paranoid.

Why is reform? This is a great example. You've just made my point, actually. Why is Reform UK so paranoid about Tommy Robinson? Because let me just put this one point to you, Lois. No, no, no, just let me put one point to you. And then you can come on. No, no, no, but let me put this one point to you.

George Cottrell, convicted fraudster. Tommy Robinson convicted fraudster. Nigel Farage says posh, posh, George should be given a second chance. Nigel Farage says Tommy Robinson, because of that fraud conviction, should never get a chance in public life. What's the difference? What am I missing? Okay, well, you've made an assumption that the reason that I don't want to appear on television

with Tommy Robinson is because of any sort of convictions or anything like that. Of course, things like that play a part when political leaders are making decisions about who they work with, who they don't. And it also depends on the kind of convictions. convictions as well. But my personal thing with Tommy Robinson is that he has organized an internet pylon on me, which was very vile. He's put out disinformation about me on Twitter, which was, and then admitted to a mutual acquaintance of ours that he knew that he'd done it, but it'd be good for clickbait. And then he's also been extremely critical of my appearance. I don't care. That's

fine, whatever, but also my personality as well. So my not wanting to appear with Tommy would not be because I've been told that I'm not allowed to, it would be for those reasons. Having said that, if you had said yes and he was about to come on, if you had allowed me to challenge me about those particular things that happened, I won't go into details now about the specifics, I would have obviously stayed on the show if you'd allow me to put those things to him. But don't organise it, though. He's not here. Don't worry. But answer my question. Why is it okay for George Cottrell to be a convicted fraudster to have served his time? Why is that okay in Nigel Farage's world? But it's not okay for Tommy Robinson to have done the same thing.

That's my point. But you are making the assumption that the only reason. Well, no, Nigel said it himself. Nigel has said in multiple interviews himself that the reason that Tommy Robinson is not someone who should be sort of brought into a. form UK is because he's in convicted criminal. He's also said in multiple interviews that he wanted, that he's someone who believes in redemption. He's someone that believes if you serve your time, that you should be given another chance. And there's proof for George Petral.

I read an email. Okay. All right. I read a tweet from Tommy last week where a woman disagreed with him on a political point, right? He came back to her saying, stupid bitch, X, Y, Z. I can't remember the exact thing. That's not a criminal conviction. that's just not the kind of person you would want to be associated with

or your political party to be associated with. So your question in terms of obviously convictions, things like that, I get what you're saying completely. But that's not the only premise on which people make decisions about associations. Okay. Well, let me put this to Dr. Starkey. Is Nigel Farage correct to maintain this absolute distance from Tommy Robinson while at the same time bringing George Cottrell back into his inner circle? I think I prefer to separate the two.

I mean, what you're saying, Dan, is that on one occasion, or in fact quite a lot of occasions, that you will get Nigel using the argument that Robinson is a fraudster, therefore we can't have him in the party, and being inconsistent. That's what you're really saying. Now, I think there's a bigger question.

The first is why on earth he has Cottrell as close to him as he has. And on my own podcast, I put it like this, that Farage is at a king, possibly a king-howell moment, the moment at which you cease to be, it's Shakespeare's play, a wonderful play, the moment at which Prince Hal, having been a rapscallion, is about to become king. And what does he do? He gets rid of all the people that he'd been rapscallions with. They'd go out of the door. And I think if Nigel wishes to be taken seriously, he will have to do that. There has to be a clear out. You cannot have people running around in dark glasses inhabiting Montenegro shady. What is that a sunny place for shady people and for people who wear shades as well? trotting around calling the Prime Minister Daddy. You really cannot. You really, really cannot. And Lois, perhaps you would say that quietly at some point, as well as giggling about it on air. But equally, the business of Tommy Robinson is a different one. You're very fond, Dan, and I am too,

and indeed Nigel is, of looking at cross-Atlantic comparisons. The enormous difference with Trump and Nigel Farage is that Trump dared to involve the equivalence of Tommy Robinson in the MAGA movement. And indeed, it wouldn't be the MAGA movement without it. Now, that opens a whole bundle of things. Is our politics different? Is our attitude to demonstrations different? Is our attitude to language in politics different?

Well, it usually, but you know what? It's getting more and more similar. So I, but what I would. Can I ask you specifically, and as an example of that before you go on, CPACGB, which you spoke at, which I spoke at. But I think we've both got to be honest. And, you know, I've been fond of Liz Trasso over many years. But the event was considered quite a flop. And I think one of the reasons, because it was trying to do that American thing, but I think one of the reasons was because actually it totally left out Tommy Robinson and Rupert Lowe from the debate.

Well, I think there were many reasons. And now I'm going to be really, really brutal. I am very fond of Liz as a person, people that I am closely associated with, like my deep friend and political colleague, Mark Littlewood, we're at Oxford with her and go back and back and back. But there is a simple, brutal truth, and I'm going to say it. Liz Truss is unrescuable. Her reputation is irreparable. She is the kind of person who gives good ideas a bad name.

And this is inescapable. It will never change. So there was that, there is that powerful element with CPAC. The other thing that's wrong is that even the name sounds American. The very idea is an American idea. We need, we on the right need to invent in Britain. We need to invent our own language. Why go to that horrible international hotel?

Absolutely in the middle of nowhere, a kind of new labor paradise. of emptiness. Why go there? I mean, we're talking about Britain. We're talking about British culture. We need to be surrounded with that beauty, with that history. And instead, you're in this soulless dump with silly pseudo, you know, piped rock music

and flashing blue lights. I was mildly embarrassed. Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. I hear you. But I do think, I don't disagree with anything you've just said. by the way. But, but, well, no, I was just going to say,

I do think it probably would have been a sellout of an event if, for example, alongside Nigel Farage, you would have had a keynote speaker from a keynote speech, sorry, from Rupert Lowe and Tommy Robinson as well. That sort of my point. But Nigel wouldn't have come, would he loins? And that's the point that CPAC organises made to me. I don't know what's going on in his brain.

But I just wanted you to know a very, very good friend of mine who was very, very, very closely involved in organising the CPAC event in the UK. In fact, he was the organiser, Joseph Robertson, told me that the audience for Nigel's speech from CPAC was one of the largest online audiences from a single speech that he said that there's ever, that Nigel has ever had. And I mean, bearing in mind, you know, his speeches have had millions of views. I would be very skeptical of that.

I'd love to see the stats. I'd love to see the stats. Okay. Okay. I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. Now, look, we've got to talk about Burnham's government and his criminal cabinet. But can I just start by saying, I love it how the British people just burst that media bubble.

Did you see this? Act of Patriot saw these absolute scenes and Cleethorpe. as two men just held up this massive sign last night saying another wanker, look. Nice little welcome message for Andy Byrne and there's people arriving Cleveland tonight. What we're saying?

Do we like it or not? And I mean, what Burnham did unveil yesterday was a criminal cabinet, criminally incompetent, criminally, socially, criminally tax-evoiding and yes, just actual criminals too. And I repeat, We live in a world where Tommy Robinson is forever derided, forever brand because of a fraud conviction. We live in a world where Nigel Farage's right-hand man, Posh George.

According to the political establishment of the mainstream media, his connection to Posh George should just see the entire Reform UK party cancelled. Right, because of this felony wire fraud, U.S. conviction for which he served nine months in a brutal American prison. Yet we also live in a world where the left will embrace the fact a convicted fraudster who was sacked from the cabinet for lying. to cops is welcomed back months later to become the Prime Minister's new deputy. So what Louise Haig has done, right, is tone down her revolting hairdo. It's more like an urban tone now. Put on a power suit to try and hide the fact that there is now a criminal running the country. And I believe in redemption, but I also believe that this constant brand of political hypocrisy

must be stamped out. So we have choices to make, don't we? I mean, the Conservative Party, they have made their choice. They released this poster, suggesting that Andy Burnham has just made a convicted fraudster, his deputy prime minister. Of course, she's not officially, but she is the second most senior person in his administration. Then you have people who say that actually she should be given a second chance because of her contrition on Newsnight. That your work mobile phone

had been stolen when you were mugged. Later you found the phone in a drawer at home. You didn't tell the police you'd found it, hence the fraud offence. Why didn't you just tell them? I know. It was a really stupid mistake. I genuinely thought it had been stolen when I had my handbag mugged

and when I later found it, I didn't correct it. And believe me, I've regretted it every day since and I hope viewers will recognise that I have more than paid the price for that mistake. Okay, but what about consistency? Because when the Guardian's political editor,

Piper Carrera, posted, I'm hearing that Louise Haig, Andy Burnham's right handwoman will be Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and that is what happened, and she will also be first Secretary of State. That's like the pretty much Deputy Prime Minister position. Ben Wallace, former defence secretary,

wrote, why don't you prefix her with convicted criminal, Pippa, in the same way you do George Cottrell? And he actually added to the same, I'm no fan of reform, and he's not. But every time the Times or the Guardian mentions George Cottrell, they prefix it with the words convicted criminal. They must prefix Louis Hague with the convicted fraudster. Not to do so is to show disdain for professional journalism. Then we come to Rainer, Red Rainer the Tax Evader, who announced her return, saying she's delighted to accept the position of the Secretary of State for the Ministry of Housing. I mean, this is a woman who was done for tax avoidance. And Alison Pearson of the Daily Telegraph simply replied, Ange did not write this. What about the criminally

inept decision? of making Ed Miliband, Mad Miliband, Foreign Secretary. I mean, Donald Trump at the moment is feeling quite positive. He seems to genuinely believe that we're going to be drilling properly in the North Sea, having no idea about the madman that we are putting in the foreign office. A madman, by the way, who has gone on the record, just like David Lammy previously did, to accuse Donald Trump of being a racist. No wonder the White House have today briefed the Daily Telegraph concerns at the highest levels about this man taking that office. Well, he actually said on this Pierce Morgan interview, apparently I saw the clip, I think, you know, I'm really popular in Britain. No, you're not.

And I think it's very important that people, you know, show, you know, and what is objection about him? His racism, his misogyny, his incredibly people. peculiar relationship with Russia. And the truth. And the truth, most of all the truth. And, you know, who he is as a person. I mean, there's a line. So if you were still leader, you wouldn't go to the banquet.

You wouldn't wear the white tie. I don't know. I think the one thing about... Which day visits dinners, did you go to? I can't remember. I bet there was some... Oh, make it stop. Seriously, make it stop.

Then you've got the fact they're already engaging in a civil war. despite the fact that Burnham said this was going to be a new error, right, with no briefing. Yet Darren Jones, Uber Slippery Starma loyalist, acts from the cabinet yesterday, posted this morning, good news that VAT will be cut on electricity bills. It's a simple way for families to save a few quid and to mechanically help to keep inflation that little bit lower. But the digital ID program was unfunded. The government will have to set out how it will pay for its new policies at the budget, prompting Piers Morgan to write, wow, the vengeance knives are plunging into Burnham's back before he's even chosen his number 10 bedroom wallpaper. And that's true and it's slightly deserved.

Is it not given that Burnham was a man who spent one year? One year secretly planning to depose the prime minister. What is terrible at Laebelo? They always get it wrong. Do you know what they're most concerned about? The fact that Rachel from accounts was replaced by a man. Sacked cabinet ministers walked in and they were applauded and cheered to the rafters. And the top of a conversation at that drinks party tonight, I'm told, was, isn't it awful? There's too much blood in the carpet. And specifically, we can't believe Rachel, Reeves, the Chancellor, has been replaced by a bloke. And as Thangam says, I think she's absolutely right.

I was inundated with text today from people who were saying, Kirstarmer did not have a faction. That was one of his failures. Actually, maybe Andy Burnham's team have accidentally created one. Okay, well, that is interesting. And the bloke that has replaced Rachel Reeves in the Treasury is John Healy. I have to be honest, as Burnham sat behind the cabinet table for the first time today, I really felt like the pressure was already getting to him.

The polyanarish vision of utopia had long gone. I talked yesterday outside in Downing Street about bringing back hope And that's got to be us, isn't it? We've got to do that. We can do that. And we've made a start today. We've made the announcement about removing VAT from household electricity bills. It's not everything, but it shows our determination to do something.

And a reform UK leader Nigel Farage is now saying, make no mistake. This is a coup. We must have a general election. To the superstar panel, Lois Perry, Dr. David Starkey. Dr. Starkey, firstly, can I talk to you about this criminal cabinet? Does it matter that we now have a convicted fraudster, effectively operating as the Deputy Prime Minister? And is Ben Wallace right that there should be consistency

if we're going to constantly refer to George Cottrell and Tommy Robinson has convicted criminals, convicted fraudsters, shouldn't we do the same with this woman? Well, actually, the telegraphers started doing just that. Oh, I like. In other words, but the Guardian won't. The Guardian. No, but come on.

Sorry, we are now on this program falling into the other side's trap. We are being a little bit partisan. I mean, newspapers have political alignments, and they use language appropriately. The bigger question, of course, is when organizations that pretend to be impartial, like the BBC, are equally partial. That's when the real trouble has. Can we just talk a little bit more about Louise Haig? Please. Why this raises some very particular problems.

She's already had to have had one part of her brief for the fraud office removed. Isn't it wonderful? But there's something much more serious. And it really is very, very serious. In charge of the cabinet office, you're in charge of the new central machinery for the enforcery. for the enforcement of standards. It's called propriety and ethics. And it's invented by the famous Sue Gray,

who was the person who came up with the rulings against Boris Johnson and was briefly at Kirstehm as Chief of Staff. And what that is, it is a machinery effectively now through things like the Honours Forfeiture Committee of enforcing conformity on the political elite. And using things like bringing in, into disrepute and whatever as the means of doing it. And the person in charge of the cabinet office is somebody who brought her position and

that of MP into the ultimate disrepute. Now, this raises, again, it's two tier. And this point hasn't been made. And it really is of central importance. You saw sitting there in the cabinet, you saw Antonio Romero, the Antonio Romero, the newish cabinet secretary, she is in direct charge of this machine. Now, the great risk is, if people like me keep on saying this about Louise Haig, Louise Haig will have to be, as it were, recused from that aspect as well,

which means that more and more power will go into the hands of the head of the civil service. And the more we have our politicians being that little bit shady, and by the way, you left one out, The new business secretary or the renewed going back to his old job, Jonathan Reynolds faked his qualifications as a solicitor. He described himself as a solicitor when he hadn't completed the exams and he hadn't been admitted to the rules. He was just a trainee. He was a trainee.

He was a trainee. And you go back and again it's even worse. If we look at the economic policies of this government, they are still the same economic policies that by some miracle of chucking public money at things, you can grow an economy that famously Rachel Reeves self-promoted serious economist, when you know she had a rather indifferent degree from LSE and nothing else, suddenly, you know, proclaim that she had a new economic formula.

But the maddest thing, again, in your list of people, can I just remind you? I think you're wrong to fuss too much about Milliband. I mean, Milliband is silly. Mad Miliband. Mad Miliband. But the reason that he has been moved. moved into the foreign office is so that he can do minimum damage. He's obviously...

I mean, I'd rather that than Chancellor. Well, I actually have a different theory to that. Just because it's a really big point, and I think we need to make it. And one of the key figures that we haven't talked about is this extraordinary woman who is now actually in charge of where, let me just find my list here, who is actually in charge of energy. and it is... Oh, meata van Bula!

Remember, coming from that well-known economic success of a country, Liberia. And she's a real lefty. Do you want to know? Ultra lefty. She is also, again, she is a kind of intensified edition of Rachel Reeves, this notion of modern supply-side economics, which is old-fashioned Keynesianism, which can work if you can borrow, but doesn't work if you can't,

and we're at the absolute edge of our borrowing. And I fear the risk is she and her like will actually complete the financial crisis, which may actually get us out of this thing. She's terrifying. David, she's absolutely terrifying. Her career's actually gone downhill because do you know what she used to do in a former life? She was actually one of my off-communist leftists on the GB News. Superstar panel.

There she is alongside Father Carlman Robinson and Carol McGiven. So I know quite a lot about her. Well, Lois, I know quite a lot about it because she also used to appear on my talk radio show every single week. And like, this is a true, true leftist. You know, this is a true leftist. Enough of it. Well, was it, oh, well, again, that said it's always the women.

It was always the young women that wore the sashes and went on the masks at marches and were the biggest grasses and the ones that would always dog people in and towed the party line. It's always the women. But should we be forgiving to some of these women, though, Lois? No. No, not really.

And Angela Rainer. Do you say no? Okay. So, yes, people can make mistakes and they can apologise for them and potentially move on. The problem is, when you're being paid by public money,

it's integrity and your background and character, they're all going to be scrutinised. And you can't have a situation where, because what happens is, what it means is that a criminal conviction will end up meaning nothing. So you'll have a situation where somebody can go for a job in the private sector or indeed in the public sector

outside of the government. And they'll say, you can't use my criminal conviction against me And how far does that stretch? Does it say you can't use my criminal conviction against me because it's murder, because I'm a paed by. Once a criminal conviction means absolutely nothing, we're on a very, very, very, very separate slope indeed.

We already have, in my view, a proper rule that, as it were, long expired criminal conviction. In other words, criminal convictions of a long... Spent conviction, yeah. can be and indeed must not be taken into account. No, I agree with that. In employment. Now, this is all rather different, isn't it, with people in life?

But there's a real risk, you know, Lois, that we start to impose impossible standards. And here I do it. I have a certain sympathy with Louise Haig that it happened in an early stage of her career when no doubt she was short of money and no doubt, you know, getting an, at a time when phones were much more expensive. And again, I'm frightened of a world in which we want all our politicians to be absolutely virtuous.

I do agree with that, but okay, but only if they hold, only if it's completely equal, and it isn't equal, yeah. That is absolutely right. I mean, I don't know about you, Lois, I have made many terrible mistakes. Yeah, so have I.

Because some of them are live television, unfortunately. that I wouldn't really wish to be waved around in public. And we all have. And we don't want to create a world in which only those who have never sin. Because you know what? It will be the most boring ridiculous, helpless people. Well, David, I remember when I was cancelled and you said to me, look, it's the greatest dinner party.

I remember you said it's the greatest dinner party, David. All of the people have been cancelled. And it's true. Because we all have our wounds, we all have our stories. But I'm with Lois on this. There has to be political consistency. So I will just stress once more and I know it feels like I'm just banging on about this. But like if Louise Hay can effectively become deputy prime minister, then George Cottrell should be forgiven.

He served nine months in a really rough American prison. And it sounded utterly horrific. You know, he was with murderers and all of that type of thing as a young man. So sorry, David, what's that? There is a difference, Dan, there is a difference. Okay. But that phone theft or whatever it was, concealment was a long time ago. And there is no evidence of repeated, as it were, phone thieving by Louise.

Unfortunately, with George, he's still in the same world that he was in, you know, I'm afraid. And that's a great problem. That whole world, that shape, as I said, the world of Montenegro, a sunny place for very shady, people who even wear shades. I'm afraid you've got to look at dear George and you will go. I can't believe I'm defending post George, right? But can I

Why do you not like posh George? Are you friends with posh George? But in defence of post George. What's he like, Lois? Everyone wants to know what he's like. You know him. He's an enigmic character. But the conviction that he's only had one conviction and that

that was a very long time ago, David. I'm afraid what I was pointing out, but you're saying he hasn't changed, David. In the same shady world. Yes, although he, of course, denies illegality. But look, it's an interesting one. It's an interesting one. I do think there is rank hypocrisy from the left

where they're prepared to forgive their team and they're not prepared to forgive the other. Are we heading towards a constitutional crisis involving Prince Harry and King Charles? I do think there is a possibility of this. Let me explain why. Front page of the mirror, Harry is now directly briefing that despite his visit to King Charles

and a promise to put down the swords, he is still going to be challenging the UK government over his security. Remember, a decision which was decided in the King's Court and Prince Harry lost. What's interesting is that Andy Burnham's appointment of Shabana Mac Mood as the UK home. secretary, it was a reappointment, is very, very bad news for Harry because the home office are furious with the way that he has tried to use this trip and this meeting with the king and

the children to force the home office into a change of policy. Now, that woman there, Shabana MacMoot, is staying as home secretary. So I think she's pretty angry from what I'm told about Harry's antics. But this briefing from Prince Harry's team, and by the way, he is actually quoted on the record within this so-called exclusive is pretty extraordinary stuff. I think it shows this is a man who has zero respect for his father. Remember, in the same week of his visit to the United Kingdom, he suggested that Justice Nicklin, in his decision against the Daily Mail, had taken part in some type of whitewash. And he actually wanted to make that statement and outseeing that from the rooms at Buckingham Palace, the decision then at the very last minute.

it, the king, luckily, you turned on. But here's the reporting from the Mirror's royal editor. My belief is this was briefed by Prince Harry's team. Prince Harry is to continue his controversial campaign demanding taxpayer-funded security, paving the way for future visits to the UK with his family. They say he's been buoyed by this emotional reunion with the king alongside his wife, Megan, and their children, Archie and Lily. Sources have revealed Harry wants to arrange further meetings with his father to allow him to spend time with his grandchildren he has hardly seen since.

they quit their royal roles. And of course, he is back in September. But here's the concerning part. Harry now plans to continue to lobby the Home Secretary to complete an urgent review into his security after he sent the department a report from his private security company claiming he is a terror target. Sources suggested the Home Office was further angered by Harry's plan, suggesting the Duke announced his itinerary in the hope of forcing the government to grant them security which was removed when they left their royal roles. Neither the Palace or the Sussex's team have revealed details of the meeting, but one source described it as emotional. And here's the on-the-record quote. This is Prince Harry speaking

on the record about this, to the Daily Mirror. Listen carefully. The Duke continues to make the case that he and his family face an enduring security risk by virtue of the circumstances of his birth and his membership of the royal family. The threats that existed while he was a working member of the institution did not simply vanish when he stepped back from official duty six years ago. They remain and the most recent threat assessment underscores the continuing nature of those risks. To the superstar panel, Lois Perry and Dr. David Starkey. So Dr. Starkey, my issue here is that Harry is not allowing formal processes to play out. He never does. He throws a tantrum and he expects to immediately get his way. And the point here is that there is a very serious and a very formal process that

politicians and high profile members of the royal family go through when they are trying to get security. We have seen in recent weeks Nigel Farage actually was offered security by Ravik. They considered his threat level high enough. With Prince Harry, they don't consider his threat level high enough. And Dr. Stucky, if he were to receive this Ravik security, I know, because we know this from former prime ministers. He would get security wherever he wanted to go in the world, wherever he wanted to go, it's permanent, it's for life. It's very difficult to take it away once you've got it. And that also means, by the way, covering his security overseas. So you would effectively be in a situation where the British taxpayers were paying for Harry's security in the United States of America,

which I think is a ludicrous situation. But my biggest issue here is that he just shows absolutely no respect for his father or the process because shooting his lip off to the daily mirror saying the fight goes on means I believe he just wants to do this publicly. And he almost wants to bludgeon the government and bludgeon his dad into reversing the decision, which by the way, has already gone through a full court process. Yes, I mean, he's a sad lad, isn't he really? Oh, got you. Gotcha.

I think he's the plain truth. I mean, just watching him with the other matter that you mentioned, his reaction after the case against the Daily Mail was thrown out in language stronger than any judge would normally use. And he is indulgent. And he's unfortunately, he's not very bright. He's absorbed, I think, from probably from his wife, this intolerable self-righteousness. And given a dash, of course, of Princess Diana's appetite for public martyrdom,

for ability to, in her case, to arouse sympathy, whether she deserved it or not. I'm not talking about her death, I'm talking about her earlier performances. And it's a deadly combination. It's impossible for somebody to be a member of the royal family and behave as he does. The only solution is really that he maintains some form of private contact, but there can be no public endorsement of his role. He's shown himself entirely unsuited for it. It's very sad.

So there's a contradiction between the fact that in real terms, he is a member of the family, he's the king's son, the children are the king's grandchildren. But in terms of behavior, in other words, he's an analogous case, isn't he, really, to his uncle, to Prince Andrew Mountbatten Windsor now, David. I keep forgetting, you know, I'm usually quite good at titles, but Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, carefully ejected from the family, he whose name cannot be mentioned. And really, I suppose we need to find some way in which we could park him. But of course, he wouldn't let that because at the same time,

I'm not a member of the royal family, I'm above, I'm below, I'm different, and this constant desire to shove himself in front of our noses. I mean, I've no idea how you solve the problem. In the old days, there would have been a rule that he could have gone incognito. And they used to put it to the rule if you wore a black sash or a black mask or something, people didn't know you were there. And we really want an ideal world in which he's there and not there. I mean, maybe we're going to arrange this on the media, you know, some kind of self.

Whenever he comes onto a television screen in this new age of AI, there can be media, It's self-blanking device and you merely hear this kind of little ginger streak saying, I think people would love that. Honestly, I think they would. Okay, Lois, is King Charles weak then? Because the problem is he keeps on for personal reasons giving in to the delusions of Prince Harry. Should he have just said, no, I'm not meeting you. while you'll continue to act in this way.

Oh, he's his son, Dan. Come on, he's a human being with the best will in the world, you know. But don't forget, Prince Harry, until he met, you know, his modern day Mrs. Simpson, was a wonderful working member of the Royal Family, in spite of the challenges that he faced. And in spite of, I watched an interview with him recently, where it said that up until the age of nearly my son's age, nearly 23, he honestly believed that mummy might affect her own death

and might be coming back to get him. That is how damaged and deluded. Yeah, but we can't keep excusing the inexcusable laws. A lot of people have experienced tragedy in their life. No, I agree with that. And he's still a highly privileged individual. Dan, I think he wants to come back. He does.

He does. I do. This is what I think. You're right. You're totally right. No, he does. And then he'll have full security. Whether the wicked witch of the West, the Queen of Narnia, the manipulative cow that she is comes with him,

that's a completely different, you know, kettle of fish entirely. I personally believe what... But David, you're saying he won't just get it back, will he, if he returned to him? I don't think you should. I mean, even if... There's still affection for Harry, I believe. Not much. Not much.

Not much. No, I don't know. Without the witch? No, I think the point is very simple. His own behavior repeatedly shows that he cannot be trusted. I'm sorry, he may be injured, he is injured, but something has gone badly wrong. He breaks every single rule, the rule of discretion, the rule of good public behavior. There is a very formal rule in the royal family for obvious reasons that all members of the family in public,

bow if they're a man or curtsy if they're a woman to the sovereign. There is a discipline and you can, this is not simply, Lewis, I agree with you this is family, but it's not any family, it's a public family. But it's her.

Can't he just bin her? Like Henry the 8th binned off some of his wives. Well, we don't take any longer We're not going to encourage the murder of her. Well, what about an Adam Cleese? Just a second. Lois, just let me, Really, it's a big point because it may very well happen.

We will have to find some way in which the human side and the public side, if he comes back, can be separated out in exactly the same way, I'm afraid, that they've been done with Prince Andrew. There will have to be the only way, right, let me now formulate this much more clearly. The only way he could be allowed back to live permanently in Britain would be if he fully forfeited his royal state. status. That's the only way. But David, can I just ask you as a historian, though?

If you think back to King Edward the 8th, then the Duke of Windsor. I mean, I was absolutely fascinated looking into this. You know, he only returned, oh, I can't remember that I'm... I think he only returned five times, right, after his abdication. He only returned to the country. I'm pretty sure it was five times. And I believe Wallace Simpson only had one audience. with any official member of the royal family

at Queen Mary's funeral. Like, that's exile. It's how it works. You make your choice, and that's what William wants. And I'm sorry, I do understand what you're both saying. Yes, of course, family. I get it, right?

But Charles's weakness here, I think, is damaging the monarchy. I do, because it was so necessary with the Duke of Windsor and Wallace Simpson to keep them out of the country. I don't think anybody takes. Harry sufficiently seriously. I mean, his attempts in returning in public life and enforcing his role in public life

result in repeated humiliation. I mean, the scenes, as I said in the courtroom, his behavior afterwards, and he piled shame on shame, that he was publicly humiliated by the judge's remarks, and then his own childish response to them, I think doubled on that shame. as I say, the only way you could possibly have him back in the country would be if his royal status was formally renounced. It has to be. And of course, the royal status of his children, with the security now, the succession, makes absolutely no difference. I think probably the best thing would be if the entire family retired into a form of private life. But, of course, he wouldn't do that, would he?

No, he loves the attention. He's an attention seeker. Yeah, and she wouldn't do it. She wouldn't do it. And the other problem is, the other problem is then he wouldn't get his security either. No, no, indeed. I mean, you may be right that the cold rationality,

which Prince William appears to be displaying on this, may be right. But equally, of course, remember, there was an enormous difference with Edward VIII and Mrs. Simpson. A, the times were very different. There was a much more rigorous view of these matters. I mean, look at the king's own, extraordinary marital history.

And if we want a sense of how times have changed since 1936 and 1937, but also he had been king. He had wielded sovereign power. And that meant that the rules of severance had to be absolutely clear. You look at his instrument of amputation, his absolute finality, the word irrevocable stands. And Harry, of course, there's always been this uncertainty of status. And he was only a second son.

I mean, hence the famous. Well, yes. Yes. But I would also argue, though, the Duke of Windsor, in all of his years on earth, post his time as king, did not try to destroy the British royal family, did not spread from rumors about the royal family. Well, I'm not defending him as he. human being. But Prince Harry and Megan Markle made accusations about the British royal family. I believe

in an attempt to try and bring that family down. So I think they are dangerous in a different way. That's not to defend the Duke of Windsor. So did Princess Diana. The really lethal accusations against Charles were made by his mother. Yeah, but it was against Charles. It was not against the British royal family. Well, he was going to be king. But she said he didn't want him. She wanted the throne to pass to William. No, no, no, no, no. The really, look, if you actually compare the situation, I know I was around then, and very much a leading commentator on it, the damage that Diana did to the royal family was immeasurably greater than anything that Harry has done.

And the problem is, Harry sees himself, remember, he sees himself as both his mother reincarnated, and he has manifestly married his mother. and a kind of woman who sees herself of emulating his mother. And it's a lethal, lethal mixture. She's a little of a copy at absolute best, Dr. Starkey. Oh, no, I'm Dr. Starkey, am I? Let's reveal, stick around you too, because we're just going to reveal today's greatest Britain and union jackass,

but I just want to get to some of the feedback. PWZS2Y says the far left are mentally unwell, unstable anarchists, the want to destroy and tear everything down and use violence to achieve it. Lulu Bell, says Anne Wittickham was highly religious and devoted to God. I'm sure she is in paradise and maybe even given a divine role by God. We can only pray. But Dylan Hughes says regarding Anne Wittickham straight from the off, I smelled something was not right and still doesn't right with so many.

And Mr. Sardock says, a pleasure to have you here. David Starkey. Thank you so much for your super chat. Okay, David has nominated Andy Burnham for today's Union Jackass. Lois Perry has nominated Ed Miliband. Apparently he's already off to the Philippines. Bye-bye, don't Harry back.

And I've gone with Louise Haig, the criminal member of the cabinet. She's in third place with 14% of the vote. Mad Miliband, the runner up with 25% of the vote. But today's Union Jackass, the nomination from Dr. Starkey with 17% of the vote. 60% of the vote. It was really 11th.

Okay, fine. Well, Lois, you can have the win. And Lois, you get to know, you nominate for Greatest Britain. So, yeah, the Greatest Britain, Lucy Connolly all day long. We love her. She has stood up fearlessly against the nasty, nasty two-tier establishment. She's been to prison and she wasn't bitter about it. She came out actually asking for her.

reform of the prison system. She has been fearless in terms of her advocacy for free speech. But she's done a new book called A Tweet Too Far. And I read today on Twitter that it's actually in

Blackwater, is it Blackwater? No. What's the bookshop? Oh, here it is. Blackwell books. Blackwell. I've got to post up actually. Here it is. It's in the bestseller. She is a bestseller in Blackwell books. Her book is doing it extremely well

But she's always been super sweet with me She did it all herself She did it all herself She independently published this And so impressive She's always been very sweet with me No publisher Very sweet with me

Well look Lois Perry Amazing stuff Lois is of course The Director of the Heartland Institute For the UK and Europe And also head of Reform UK Friends of Israel Organisation The Chief Director

Yes indeed And Dr David Starkey Well here's so much But the key message is I believe Dr. Starkey, because I love your YouTube channel, is to subscribe to David Starkey talks because that's his entry into this brilliant independent media space. And it is becoming quite a success of a channel too, isn't it, David? So congratulations on that. But we love having you both on Outspoken. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. If you do want more royal news, though, we're heading over to substack. Now P. Diner's got loads more. You can join us there at www. www. outspoken. Dot live. We will be back with you though, live tomorrow. 5pm UK time, midday Eastern, 9 a.m.

Pacific, please do hit subscribe on YouTube. Turn on the notification bell. We're also available as a podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or if you get your podcasts, and most importantly, I promise to keep fighting for you.