Dan Wootton Outspoken - ANTI-WHITE RACISM DEBATE KICKS OFF AS LAURENCE FOX IS TAKEN DOWN BY TWO MEGA LEFTIES LIVE ON AIR

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Laurence Fox, Anna May Mangan and Amy Anzel join us for The Clash Takedown - where heavyweights of the right are put on the spot to argue their controversial takes on subjects chosen by us versus two highly prepared and researched opponents who are on a hell bent mission to take them down. On the menu: anti-white racism, Enoch Powell, GB News sacking and woke showbiz. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No spin, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Wooden. This is a very special edition of Outspoken as we're premiering a brand new edition of The Clash. But this is the clash with a difference. The takedown, where heavyweights of the right are put on the spot to argue their controversial takes on subjects chosen by us with no preparation whatsoever versus two highly prepared and researched opponents who are on a hell-bent mission to take them down. Yes, today is going to be fun because taking on the takedown challenge for the first time is the actor, political party leader of reclaim, co-host of the Fox and Father podcast, Lawrence Fox.

He is facing off against entrepreneur, CEO, founder, Amy Anzell, and the author, Anna Mae Mangon. because of this very special edition of the show there is no live Greatest Britain and Union Jackass but the Royal Uncanceled Aftershow does continue as normal on Substack after the main show you can sign up at www.outspoken. Dot live. I'm very excited about this.

Let's go. When we're brought up, we are taught these days that all forms of racism are bad. But the MSM has been spoon-feeding the narrative for years that you can't be racist against white people. However, at least there is one sane mind with me today

who thinks that anti-white racism is as bad as any other form of racism. This is the clash takedown with Lawrence Fox, who is going up against Amy Anzell and Anna Mae Mangon on this very issue. So, Lawrence, you have 60 seconds. to put your case before the takedown begins. Why is anti-white racism as bad, Lawrence, as any other form of racism? Anti-white racism, I suppose,

is probably the only systemic, endemic permitted racism allowed in Britain, from the police to the NHS, to other places that advertise for non-white employees. And to the golden goose, for one of a better word, of the hundreds of thousands of completely sexually exploited white British girls at the hands of Islamic rapists. So I would say that not only is anti-white racism as bad as other forms of racism in the UK, I'd say it's the only one which is permitted. Indeed. Indeed. Amy Anzel, first to you, take him down. Lawrence, I thought you were talking about anti-black racism,

actually, with that intro. There's just no comparison, between anti-white racism and anti-black or any other minority racism that's out there, because anti-white racism is usually based on a single insult or it's relatively new and recent, whereas I feel like anti-black racism or anti-minority racism has been around for decades. So it ultimately affects and negatively impacts their lives, whether it's going out for jobs and their employment, their career, housing, policing, obviously, goes after a lot of black men, as we know. Well, black men go after a lot of black men as well.

There's no comparison, and I just think that it's a ridiculous thing to say that anti-white racism is as bad as any other form of racism. So we're on the same team. We think that racism is bad generally against people. It's bad, but it's much... So if we don't like it against black people, we don't like it against white people. It's much, much worse when it comes to black people and minorities. Why?

Because there's decades and decades that they're dealing with of racism and of Constant. Who's the day? Sorry. I'm really speaking of black people for the most part. I know both in America and in the UK. Speaking for black people. Well, yeah, I'm speaking of and four, I guess. Do you view yourself as one of these anti-racists?

I am not a racist at all. I just feel that I'm really, it's really depressing that you actually think that it's the same. Like, is it the same exact level? Is that what you're saying? Anime manga, take him down. So did you just say, are you anti-racism? What was the same?

Yeah, I asked Amy Ansel if she is an anti-racist because these days... Well, yes, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not racist, but I'm not anti-racist. Yeah. But surely you're anti-racism. That's what you just said, isn't it? Yes. And all of its forms.

But no, anti-racist is a different woke term that has been used where you have to sign up to a whole load of ideological bullshit and I refuse to do it. Do you got a knowledge white privilege, isn't it? It's like sitting in a room with men talking about what it's like to have a vagina. We're not black. We don't know, do we? We don't know what it's like. We don't understand it. We're human beings. No, but we're not black.

Their experience about being discriminated against is their story. It's their history. And there's 18% of people in this country are of colour. So how can, therefore, 18% of people discriminate against the rest of us? It doesn't make any sense. Would it be an anti-racist? Would the anti-racist dislike it if the non-an-racist said 18% the people in this country are coloured.

Well, if you're comfortable using that language, I'm not. I'm comfortable using all language. Knock yourself out, but I don't agree with that. The whole point is that what you're talking about is issues of discrimination in areas. I think you're against positive discrimination from what I just heard you say. I'm against discrimination full stop. Well, how can that, but you can't? I'm pro-merotoxy anti-discrimination, is my position, yeah.

So you don't believe in positive? discrimination to give women opportunities. No, oh goodness, no, less of that would really help this society. Well, I think we're dealing with in Neanderthal here and there's no help. There's no help for this guy. Why, though? Because, look, did you see the graph the other day? Have you got a daughter?

I have a stepdaughter, yeah. Okay, so you'd be happy if she went for a job and she didn't get help if she was, what's the word I'm using, if the job needed a quota of certain people. Like the label waitingness for MPs and things. Well, that's all done now. That's done. Yeah, I know, look at the cabinet. So in your personal life, would you be happy if your kids were discriminated against?

My daughter's actually doing her second day of work today, and she got that job all by herself, and she's doing really well, and I'm really proud of her. You don't want her to get a job because she's a woman. I mean, how absolutely revolts with that be. Actually, in some settings I do, because I do. As a mother, definitely. No, as a person who wants the BBC, Parliament, medicine to run with an equal number of good brains, and that includes women.

Meritoget. You're agreeing with me. Yeah, that's right. So I'm saying I'm anti-discrimination, you're anti-discrimination. We're all pro-womening. No. But we don't, we don't, we don't artificially positive. I don't know what you're back.

I mean, are you posh? I don't know where you're going on. My great-grandfather was a judge. Oh, you're posh, though. And my great-grandmother was a prostitute. Don't put your daughter on the stage. We can close the argument right there because as a working class, as a working-class person who was brought up in an Irish immigrant household

who had to fight tooth and nail. And my shtit is being a pushy mother to Equal, no, they don't. Oh my goodness, they don't. Even rich people have to fight two to them now. No, they don't. Well, have you ever tried to be a doctor? I know some chronically,

or a lawyer lately. Chronically mentally and well rich people. Have you? Have I tried to be a doctor recently? Or a lawyer? Or any of those professions where you have to have a hand up, a leg up. My kids went for work experience as medics. And they were laughed at and told, I know that's for family and friends only.

That's what they had to put up with. And what you all talk, it's positive discrimination. It's my family and people like me. Like me. But we're not talking about class. We're talking about race. No, but we're not entitled to talk about race. But I presume your children are white.

Yeah, of course. Yes. And can I just say, and actually, I don't like going here, but can I just say, the most underprivileged group in British society are white working class boys. They kill themselves at levels higher than anyone else. They don't get into university at rates close to anyone else. Yeah, I think you're moving off that because you're. you're not comfortable, neither should

we be talking about race, but we don't understand it? I'm very comfortable. I don't understand everything about race. How do you? You're not black. You've never been black? No, there's one thing that's called the human race. Right, okay. One world. Yeah, yeah, get it. I thought I meant to be the fascist psychopoeuvre rather than be liberal.

But, yeah, there's a human race and we're all part of it. Okay, and you think that women, working class, black people should struggle. I don't care whether you're working class or black. I care whether you're good at the job. Have you ever employed any of a lot? Can you, Can you land the plane?

I currently employ seven people. Okay. One of them is a gay Peruvian. Oh, wow. So there you go. Stick out of my... You tick the box. You tick the box.

Well done. I know. I walked to you and I went, are you gay? And are you from Peru? And he went, yes. And I went, you're hired. Amy's not happy. Well, I went to an Ivy League school.

I was very fortunate. And there were a lot of black and brown people there. And they were very obviously there. And they even said so because of affirmative action. So I was very happy to hear that because I do believe that we still need to help the black and brown, the minorities in getting a leg up, like you say, it's very important.

Not at all. I just know that I have a very privileged background. You know who gets promoted by these so-called diversity agendas and all this sort of stuff. The people that do well out of that, if you read Heather McDonald to a diversity delusion, excellent book, I highly recommend doing it.

What happens is you get the richest of the people of color or color of people or, I mean, I'd say the M word. That's not true. This is true. And then what happens when they can't attain, when their scores are elevated and they can't attain the same level

as white people or Asian people or whatever because they're only being given the thing because of the colour of their skin. That's not to say that there aren't black people who are profoundly intelligent, Thomas Sol, genius. It's to say that if you artificially mess with the meritocratic system, what you end up with is gender studies and race studies

and all of this stuff because what they do is they fall out of legal studies, they fall out of the top thing and they go, well, why did I fall out? And they go, well, the system is oppressed, it's rigged against you because you're black. I mean, it's rubbish. That's a massive generalisation in the non. I didn't go to university though.

He didn't. So I don't want to thick enough. Did you? I went to university. Well, then I'm... You don't discriminate against me because I'm mental. And you know when my parents went to celebrate, they went to the wimpy bar with me

because that's the level that we were at and my aunt cried when my brother got a Bachelor of Science because she thought it meant he could never get married. It was really sad because we just weren't educated. My sister's husband was brought up on a cancer estate in Ipswich. My wife is brought up on a cancer estate in Suffolk. It makes no difference. So you can't say it's an equal playing field.

We don't care. And when there's 18%, sent people of colour, competing with people who are not of colour, then obviously you can't discriminate against the white people. They're not discriminated against. They're actively discriminated for, which I'm against. But that's a positive. No, it's not good because, okay. I mean, you just said you were going to use the N word. I don't know. Do you try and sort of close every argument by being offensive? Because that is so... I'm really sorry you're finding my well-reasoned and carefully put together argument offensive.

No, at the N-word, I find it disgusting. Okay, well, you can find it as offensive as you like. I don't care. Actually, this makes me think I've sunk lower at doing this job than I ever had before. It's just a word. It's just a word. This guy's got you into trouble more than once before. Are you happy for him to say that?

Well, I believe in free speech. You can't believe it. And for me, what is quite interesting is that people can lose their jobs at the BBC. No, we're coming off the subject. He's just said N-word several times. You're making me say it in my head by saying the N-word. I'm actually...

Maybe you think about not saying what's in your head. I'm married to a woman of colour. Anyway, I'm about to come. I'm just making a very important point here. At the BBC, John Torode lost his entire career. Yeah. Which had been built up over many years because he wrapped a Kanye West song that included the N-word on a night out.

Now, I'm sorry, to me, that is absolutely insane. What's the equivalence here? Well, the equivalence is that actually, if it's okay for black people to use the N-word, while I would personally not use the word, why should someone else not be able to say it? Can you close this? Because I'm actually not participating the rest of this discussion after that.

It's discriminated. Do you understand the point I'm making? Speak to Amy. Do you understand the point I'm making? The point I'm making is I think my position has been very straight, which is we're anti-discrimination. Therefore we shouldn't discriminate against certain people and ask them to use a certain word.

Do you know who sponsors the Pakistani? Are you still speaking to me when I asked you not to? You can speak to Amy, please? See, this is a little lefty just trying to control you. I mean, you wrap up the take down. Lawrence, you haven't convinced me. I'm really sorry. The fact that you just used the N-word about 10 times

was offensive to me as a white person. I mean, I'm Jewish and I know that if someone used the word for, you just don't. Now I'm offended. You've offended me now. You could have said the K word. Exactly. Why didn't you say the K word, though?

I didn't know if you would know what it was. Interestingly. I didn't know if you know what it was. So I just made sure that you did. So the K word. Yeah. You know, you can't, why is one word, you just proved my point for me, why is one word so wonderfully elevated up to the stars? I was just making sure to educate me, Lawrence.

I didn't know, I didn't know. It's just a very, if you knew. If you knew. The N word, because we'll go back to saying that, is used constantly in hip-hop throughout, and it can be a very affectionate way of people speaking to each other. With a hard ER on it, it's a very different thing. The thing I'm just, the thing that I'm just still shocked by, actually, it's interesting. And I think this is the way that different people think in different sides of the political spectrum.

Anime, I respect your position, but you're very offended by the fact that Lawrence has used this word. They're disgusted. I'm still, okay, well, I'm offended and disgusted by the fact that Amy thinks it's okay to be anti-white races. I still can't get over that. It's like, if you hate...

I didn't at the start. Well, she said that it wasn't a big deal, that there's nothing really wrong with it. It's just individual. cases. Like, we as white people are actually the minority in the world. But we are the minority in the world. In the whole world?

Yes, we are. We're not a universe. What about the galaxy? Well, no, we are. Look, it's an actual fact. White people are at the rate of extinction. Right. That is the reality.

Well, you haven't taken in the solar system or the galaxy yet, Dan. No, I'm still not speaking to you. It's not the other way. Okay. Well, we'll pause. We'll pause. We'll force here, but things don't get any less controversial, because last year, slippery Stama was obliterated by the hysterical MSM over his

island of strangers' speech due to the echoes of former conservative MP, Enoch Powell, a man who the left still see as the British Voldemort. Now, they might think that Powell was a deplorable racist. However, many now look back at that 1968 Rivers of Blood speech as a chilling prediction of what we are now seeing in the disunited kingdom, thanks in large part to mass immigration. Now, one person who thinks Enoch Powell was right joins me today. This is the clash takedown with Lawrence Fox going up against Amy Anzel and anime manga on this very issue. So, Lawrence, you have 60 seconds. Was Enoch Powell's River of Blood speech right?

Well, was Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood Speech right? I mean, Kirstama thinks it was right, because he quoted from it almost verbatim. But, you know, what was interesting about Enoch Powell was he was almost worse. He said, you know, in only a decade from now, the black man will hold the whip hand over the white man. and he said that those whom gods wish to destroy, first they drive mad. So we've been driven mad as our country has been, the demographic shift I think is, we cannot question the demographic shift that's taken place in such rapid time in our country.

And Enoch Powell was trying to raise awareness to the fact that that's a very, very dangerous thing. You'll find that most conservative-leaning people do not think that immigration should stop entirely, but they want useful and successful immigration. We don't want open borders to everybody, and we don't think that all cultures are equal. So Enoch Powell said then what was true then, and it remains true to this day, and our children, as they're stabbed on the streets of London,

will bear the fruit of it. Anna Mae Mangan, take him down. Okay, so Enoch Powell, quoting him or using him, is like justifying an extreme right-wing argument. We might as well talk about what Nostradamus said and give that credence as well. Well, how about the secrets of Fatima? Let's bring them up and see where that gets us.

So the fact that he said what he said in a completely different time when we hadn't even joined the EU and immigration. In fact, the people who came to the country at the time Enoch Powell said that were Windrush, they were invited here to work on our buses.

The Irish came, my family came to dig the roads. Lots of people came. Yeah, are they okay because they're white then? I'm talking about immigration being managed and controlled in order to see, you can't have a nation state with open borders.

Inok, you talked about him. So he is, he's dead, he's dust. And he's got no. relevance. It lives on. In minds of people, of your ilk, yes. Like everyone who's going to vote reform in the next general. What do you mean of your ilk?

Reform and reclaim. You mentioned reclaim before, so I'm guessing they're his political lenings. Okay, so you mean someone on the right of British politicians? I'm a bit of liberal. It's like they've got a statue of him in their office. You know, he isn't, the world has changed, immigration has changed. We need to change. I don't disagree with you on that.

Why? Why do we need to change? I love our country. Why do you have to change? What's good about it changing? How you handle immigration changes as society changes. A lot less of it would be great. And I think you'll find that.

Well, I think the offering needs to change. That's what I think. Why do we just have a lot less immigrants? What about the Irish then? Where are you on the Irish when they came over from my family? Well, they're immigrants. I got no problem with the Irish. So you didn't have a problem with them coming over?

No, do you know what I do have a problem with? What? What I have a problem with is 900 men a day or weekend fleeing war with I don't disagree with that. Without women and children with them, so obviously that war can't have been that bad. Coming over here, creating no-go zones where people can't go, stabbing people in the street,

robbing them, mugging them, and trying to impose the death cult of Islam on our country. Inopal, Irish people are Catholic in the main, the Irish immigrants are Catholic in the main, which is much more cohesive to our society. Islam, on the other hand, no thanks. So Enoch Powell, when he said what he said,

you think he's still relevant to this? No, he was prescient. He was absolutely right. You don't think he was inciting. He was right. No. Rivers of blood and all that. No, no. That's the thing about you guys.

And I totally respect why you do it because your arguments are poor. My guys. Yeah, the left. I don't. I come here and I'm always accused being on the left. We use words as a correct meaning. You've already called me offensive, disgusting. No, I used the words.

Yeah, but you've already gone for it straight. Wait, it's this, because your arguments are right. Oh, sorry. I don't find enough for you in my argument. No, it's just, I'm trying to encourage you to be better at arguing. Oh, thanks. So when you argue with somebody, what you do is you attack their idea not them as a person.

It's just a piece of advice that I learnt from my mum before I've been to postul. I certainly don't need advice from someone who use language like you do. Okay. Okay. Amy Anzel, take him down. You know what's interesting. So being raised in the US and being educated in the US, I actually didn't know of Enoch Powell.

Obviously, he's more of a figure here. And I wasn't around in the 1960s, but I was in the 70s, 80s, and I moved here in the 2000s. And from what I saw, because I did watch the speech in full, and it seemed, extremely exaggerated and having moved here now I don't see any of that as legit and true.

All I see is immigration being beneficial to the UK whether that's NHS staff. I read that one in six NHS workers are from overseas and are immigrants. We only need so many NHS stuff because we have so many immigrants.

I come from a generation 47 years old. I come from a generation where we remember our country being a lot nicer than it is now and you'll find in America which is very interesting America There's a good parable here for you. Please.

When a, in Nigeria, I've just been with a bishop in Nigeria who had a hundred of his flock congregation murdered and beheaded by Islamist militia on Palm Sunday on a Christian holiday. And what he says is, Christians are very charitable. So they reach out to other people and say, come here. So a Muslim comes and prays at the bottom of his garden. After a while, two Muslims come and play at the bottom of his garden.

Then they put some stones around it, and after a while you have a structure in a building in a mosque. And what he said was, you've got to stop that. first Muslim praying. Because if you'd, no, just ask him to go and pray with his brethren where they pray. Right. So in, for example, in one of the world's many Islamist countries. For example, how many churches are there and how much freedom of religious worship is in Saudi Arabia?

Do you know? I know there's not much. Not a single church. You're not allowed to practice anything other than Islam in Saudi Arabia. They take themselves extremely seriously. Why shouldn't we? Why shouldn't we? Really?

So citizens, taxpaying citizens in this country shouldn't be allowed to worship. In Saudi Arabia. You'd exclude them from worship. I would say that Islam should be... Just Islam? You've got a problem with anyone else? Well, I don't see other people stabbing and burning people to death and blowing people up and throwing acid in their faces

and shooting up nightclubs and beheading people in the streets. Going back to In Hull... And blowing up children's concerts and stabbing loads of children and running people over in Carls. I don't see any other religion doing that. Thank you. Going back to Enoch Powell. I just think that the right of moved him forward

as a visionary. He was a visionary. He was already a visionary. He didn't need to be moved forward. It was just right. It was visionary when people come to this country to work. To work and to contribute. And they were invited here.

They were invited. But do you not understand that that invitation has had grave costs? He was just talking about people of colour. He wasn't, that's what he meant. Black people, which is just unbelievable now. I would have thought we've all evolved to the point where we don't have to say, God, wasn't he right? I mean, he was a disaster.

The point of his speech was not so much about black people. It was about the undermining of the property. present culture within which you live. Anything else in the 60s, any other political views from the 60s that you admire? We're not talking about any other political views from 60. They're not in the debate platform. No, it's just the racist's what you like. So you're saying you're not pounds of racist, don't you?

Definitely. His speech was definitely racist. Again, you're doing it. Do you see what you're doing, which is you're constantly gay? You're a racist, you're despicable, you're disgusting. You can't argue the point. So you just call people racist. My wife, you just met my wife.

She's not white. Can you not distinguish between having a racist idea? and me calling it. I don't know you. I hear what you're saying. I'm responding to it. I'm not saying you're a racist. You just said he's not pals of racist. She wasn't a racist. See, what's interesting, Amy. It's a weak argument. It's not working with anyone. It's so fragile nowadays. I'm not getting personal with you. So don't get personal with you. I'm not being personal with you. He's dying for chat. Okay. So, so, so, Amy, you said you watched the speech in full. What do you think was racist about it? I think he was inciting fear and people based on. But we had reason to fear.

Look at out our country. today. But I just see, you're talking about 15 immigrants a week. I just see useful immigration. I mean, for the most part, it's a very diverse country. Really? Yeah. You don't see rapists, murder, terror, terrorist, drug runners, Islamist.

They're not all necessarily immigrants. I think immigrants have done great things for the country, just as they have in America. I think we're built on immigrants in America and here, and I think we should respect their contributions. It's not true. You've got to be factually correct. Britain is not built on immigration. America. Well, after the war, a lot of immigrants were brought over to help rebuild the country.

Absolutely. So that was rebuilt. Rebuilding. Okay, America was built on immigrants. There is always a case for moderate and controlled immigration. Mass uncontrolled immigration. Okay, explain to me this. How do you have a state-funded welfare system, which now takes more of the tax burden than anything else? How much, how do you keep that with an open border? So anyone can come here and get free healthcare whenever they want. at the expense of people who have been paying their taxes, whilst to the same political parties who have promised them that they'll look after them in their old age.

That doesn't work. I appreciate the welfare system needs me. It can be friends. You meant to be taking them down anyway. I'm not going to lie. I agree with that point, yes. Yes, I do. And it's interesting you say that because Enoch Powell.

So he's right. Enoch Powell. Lawrence is right. Enoch's right. But no, he's past. It's over what he said. We need to be dealing with immigration as it is now. Maybe it is worse, but it's still different.

It's still different. But anime. But anime, no, because anime, he was talking about rivers of blood. It's only worse now. Have you watched the speech? Well, where did the rivers of blood come from? You can tell me that. It's the most misquoted.

He's quoting Virgil and he's saying, I see the tiber frothing with blood. He does never mentions rivers of blood. But at that time, he would have meant Irish blood and West Indian blood because they were the people who were coming over in small numbers. If you can't quote what he actually said, then it's possibly, possibly, possibly. not to draw inference. It's possible not to draw inference from what he said if you're misquoting in this first base. Well, I do think that that's a common misconception, though, is it. It's the most common misconception in politics in political quoting, actually. But historically, he has no relevance now. Like I say, dig up.

But, Aname, he has total relevance, though. Why is he couldn't brought back to life? He does. Because, because, because what you seem to be missing here is that this has taken, this takeover of our country, this invasion of our country. I mean at Aname, has taken decades, has taken decades. And the British public have been ignored. Do you realize that two-thirds of Brits publicly agreed with Enoch Powell back then? Now, he was completely shunned from polite society.

The Conservatives turned on him. But two-thirds of Brits agreed with him then. It wasn't because they were racist anime. It was because they wanted to keep England English. And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? You would never say there was a... Are you saying a black person can't be English? Seriously.

Well, I'm saying ethnically they can't. Oh dear. I honestly think. Well, what, how am I wrong? I mean, it's a scientific argument. It's really wrong that all our white faces are speaking. Can I be Japanese? Can I be Japanese? No, no, no. Seriously, Anna may answer the question. Can I be Japanese if I live? Is this a comedy show now? Can I be a Japanese? Can you be Japanese? They wouldn't give you half a chance.

If you're born in Japan, would you not be Japanese? If you're a mother and father. You know how stupid that sounds. I actually don't. Everyone's educated today. Can I, can I be Nigerian? Can you be a Nigerian? If your parents live in Nigeria and you've got a Nigerian, you're born there and you've got

a Nigerian passport. No, ethnically, ethnically, ethnically. I don't know what you mean by ethnic. I go for the South, go South African on him. Go, can you be, go do the South African. No, I'm not, no. And there should be more people of colour in this room having these two debates that just had. Why? Because they have a point of view and a perspective that might be valuable.

There's enough people of colour. Go to BAFTA. It's 50% representation has to be in order to be considered. This is still a majority white country. I've been there. I've thought you weren't working in that industry anymore. I've made you've been there lately. I can see the glee in your eyes that I'm not. And that's fine. But anime, but, but, but, but, but, but, I'm sorry. Anime, I, like, it's so annoying to even have to say this because, like, it's not even racist. This is just, It's just, it's scientific. It's, it's ludicrous that you say that I'm in some way racist for saying that a black person is not ethnically English. But you can't sit there and say that I could become ethnically Japanese or that I could become ethnically Nigerian.

Are you talking about? Where you can find out where your ancestors are from. Is that what, is that what you're talking about, about your ancestry? No, it's just very obvious. It's very obvious. Are you a citizen of this country? Yes, of course. I'm. Okay. So are you English? Yes, of course I'm. I was born in New Zealand, but I am 100% ethnically English. My parents are English. My great-grandparents are English. Why is this so confusing for people to understand? If you were saying this about someone who was Japanese, that would be considered racist. Yet because you're talking about English, white people, it's in some way excusable to completely deride that we actually do have an

ethnic homeland. And you seem to make that a racist thing. It's not. That's what Enoch Powell was talking about. He said that it mattered. And you would not call a Japanese politician saying that they want Japan to stay predominantly Japanese. You would not call that person racist. You would not. I don't know how Japan came into this. I thought would you. Would you? Would you? I don't understand the question. I don't understand the question. I don't want to lay for it. So culturally, are you saying that a black person cannot be. No, no. No, what he's saying, which is, which is, which as far as if I'm explaining it correctly, is if the Japanese said Japan for the Japanese,

who want to protect our culture, show guns, whatever. That's their choice, isn't it? Yeah. Well, this was our choice. You wouldn't turn around to that Japanese leader and go racist. You would go, how wonderful that you've got your land of the first people and the indigenous people of your land, we're so proud of you. But the minute a white person does it and a British person does it,

you turn around and you go, it's racist. It's not. It's not. It's very logical. Some fresh genes, some non- We've got a lot of fresh genes. Some vegetarian. Look at how we're benefiting from them.

Because I don't eat meat or fish. So, yeah, I think the Japanese could benefit from some incomers. No, the Japanese want to stay Japanese, and they want to keep eating whale, and it's none of your business. And if the, and if they... This is hate that much of a peculiarity. No, I want to keep eating wild. Where is this going? This is my favourite line ever.

No, because the thing is what you just have to think about, right, is that no one would say the Nigerian Enoch Powell or the Jamaican Enoch pal or the Japanese Enoch pal, was racist. This is my issue. Amy. I really don't know what to say anymore, Dan, because this conversation has just gone in a very weird direction. Because you're losing. You're losing. I mean, ultimately in 1968, when he made this speech, it was very extremist. And it didn't come true. He said there would be a societal collapse. It has come true. There's not a societal collapse. You do not believe there's a societal collapse in the United Kingdom today. You don't believe there's a takeover today. You don't believe people are at threat every single.

single time that they leave their house today because of mass immigration. That is what he not Powell warned against. There are some immigration issues, but you know, you see that in many countries. Can't make an omelet without breaking any X, man. And if those ex happen to be a quarter of a million young white girls, then so be it. It's like

that. That's not a good argument. You would not like that. And the fact that it's happening in other countries is also not a good argument. If someone came into your house and behave like that, you'd be very, very upset with them. These people are guests in our home. And if you want to become British, that's a question that we can talk about. My wife was born in America. She now, she lived in English. She lived in the most of her life. She would never call

herself English. She's half English. But she has values in the way that she lives. It's very British. And that's, and there's an argument. Yes. And citizenship. Like we accept that people can go to. A piece of paper doesn't make you English. And Amy, we accept, right, that great British people go to America. They have to pass a, I mean, I know lots of people have done it, a very stringent test where they prove that they're going to be an asset to America, that they bring something. to America that Americans can't do, that they sign up to pay all their taxes forever more to America for the rest of their life, that they respect American history. And at that point, and only at that point, do they get to become an American citizen?

Now, I don't think anyone argues the Brits that do that have changed their ethnicity. Okay? So we just have to be honest about what is going on here. And it's a lot. What's going on here is that you're harnessing your wagon to a speech that's what, how many years old? Because it's come true, anime. And he wasn't, the problems you're describing weren't even happening when he gave that speech. They were happening.

They were happening. They were trying to saw what was going to happen. Have you watched a speech? No. Right. So it's difficult, it's difficult to generalise about something you haven't listened to. So what he says in the speech is he says that in Wolverhampton, one of the specific points he raises, He says in Wolverhampton, there are 15 families

have moved into Wolverhampton this week, which means that you will have, each of those families will make another generation. So it will exponentially become a major, major demographic issue within 10 years of that speech taking place. But look at what's happened. Yeah, but you're talking about Islam. How many Islamists are in the country in 1968?

Well, it doesn't matter about how many there are then. It matters how many there are now. Your opinion, your argument now. Immigration anime was about to come from Pakistan, and it was Pakistan that important speech, the Islamists. West Indians and Irish, the majority of people. No, they weren't. There were people fleeing in Uganda.

There were people fleeing all over the world. Invited. Invited to his country to work here. We can have a lot of conversation. You can have a conversation about whether it's a good idea, whether it's a good idea. Talking over me doesn't mean that you're right. Well, I've just asked you whether you've seen a speech. You said no.

I'm not a lie. I'm trying to explain to you what he said. in the speech and you just go, well, that doesn't matter. I think the majority of people who agree or disagree with it haven't read the whole thing. They haven't. I mean, you're very good that you did. Do you know how long it takes to read or listen to?

No, but I know I don't agree with him. Eight minutes. I know from the highlights. Do you know what the audience? Do you know, don't read commentary. Go to the primary source. Another argument when it comes to a decent arguing. Sorry, but it's true.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody. No, opinions are like ourselves. everybody's got one. So study the primary source. I should not interrupt Lawrence. His room, the room broke out in loud applause. Dan is right.

He was speaking to two thirds of the population. In 100%. Find someone more recent. Who's given a speech more recently? I'll tell you. I don't need to tell you what's what happens on May the 7th. Watch what happens as the entire Conservative Uniparty Party along with the establishment party is designated.

And you're then left with Nigel Farage. That's great. Look how good that's going to be. That's democracy. I'm happy with that. I'm not happy with you deifying a speech from 19-exam. But, but anyway, there has been no, I mean, that's really interesting you say that, because genuinely there has been no democracy when it comes to mass immigration into this country.

From Enoch Powell and the four decades that followed, every single time the British people were asked right up to culminating in the 2016 Brexit referendum, every time we were asked, we were opposed to mass immigration. What happened? Every single time we were ignored. That will end up leading to civil war. I don't disagree with that. I do disagree with the fact that, you know, Powell, talking about different people in different time.

I'm so dramatic, honestly, please. It's not dramatic. Civil Wars quite dramatic. Tell that, tell that to the Rudy Cabana, not the Rudy Cabana phone. Oh, please, don't do that. That's appalling. Sorry, why is that? So you're telling me how I can and can't talk.

I just think that example is, why, why? Because it's, it's heartbreaking. Oh, so we can't talk about it. It's heartbreaking. What's her super. I mean, I don't know what happened. His father, his father came to this country, was welcomed in by us. One of these people who Enoch Powell said we shouldn't allow him in.

The father then allowed his son to go and bludgeon to death. Three young girls and the Taylor Swift dance class. The arena bomb. I know all that. And it's so distressing. Yeah, they didn't used to happen. This is not the venue for raising that as your example. Why do you decide what's the venue?

Because it's so deplorable. Oh, surprise. horrible now. We've done disgusting, despicable, deprable, oppressive. What, the murder of murder of children? Yeah, the murder of children by a family who should have never ever been in this country. Who the uni party told us was a Welsh choir boy.

This is a news night. He wasn't. He was a psychopathic Islamist thug. This is an entertainment program, isn't it, basically? No, we're a news show. We're an independent news show. Yes, right. Okay, but it's not news night. Therefore, we don't need to go that low. You think news night is more honest than this program, Anna. No, I don't. I do. Seriously.

Seriously? Well, it's shorter. You seriously think Newsnight is more honest than Dan Witten out spoke here. We've got to be able to bring up examples of where Britain's disastrous immigration policy has led to the massacre of people. I could bring up loads.

7-7, the Lee Rigby murder, the London Bridge bombings, the Ariana Grande bombings, they were all born here. But their parents were all people who Enoch Powell had said should not be allowed into this country. Don't look back in anger, though,

Oh no, I'm not angry at all. No, he didn't mention. He didn't mention Islamists. Edoch Powell didn't mention Islamists. But he knew what was coming in May. I don't think he... No, I disagree with that. Hopefully after you've watched it, we'll know.

You have to think of the family and the impact it has when their names are mentioned in any context other than they're ungrieving. Well, look, I've... You might say this is a news night. Well, guess who I've had here who Newsnight hasn't? Chivon White, the mother of Riannan White, who was bludgeoning. to death, stabbed 23 times with a screwdriver through the eye

by an illegal who arrived in this country five weeks ago. She has been totally ignored by the mainstream media. She is another example of what Enoch Powell was warning off. And that's why when Lawrence says how people are going to vote, I think that's going to show, all of that is going to show in the vote. But it does not, it's not

reflected in a 98, which is a whole point of this discussion. But Anna, Anna, Anna, Anna, Anna, it's not reflected in what Enoch Powell said in but we have voted in time and again. That was the topic. But we have voted time and again since 1968 and being ignored. But look, look, let's move on for something lighter, right? As many of you will know, the end of mine and Lawrence Fox's mainstream media careers

at our former employer GB News was provoked by this moment back in 2023. We're past awards yet, so I can say this. And show me a single self-respecting man that would like to climb into bed with that woman ever, ever, who wasn't an in-sell, who wasn't a cucked little in-cell. That little woman has been fed, spoon-fed oppression day after day after day after day, starting with the lie of the gender wage gap. And she sat there and I'm going like, if I met you in a bar and that was like sentence three, chances of me just walking away are just huge. We need powerful, strong, amazing women who make great points for themselves. We don't need these sort of feminist 4.0. They're pathetic and embarrassing.

Who'd want to shag that? Well, look, she... Sorry, I'm just going to provide a touch of balance from her because she did actually respond to this earlier today saying that she regretted her comments, but she didn't apologize. Yes. So there you go.

At least it used to be fun, right? At least it used to be fun back then. The outrage exploded with the MSM calling for the broadcaster to be shut down. And Lawrence and I face the modern equivalent of a public hanging all over that comment that many will have heard their mates saying down at the local pub and not thought twice about it. it's now time to revisit that moment in the clash. Take down with Lawrence Fox, who's going up against Amy Anzell and Anna May Mangon on this very issue. So Lawrence, you have 60 seconds.

Why was the fallout to the wouldn't shag that moment, an overreaction? It's interesting. Someone pointed out to me that the woman concerned Eva, Ava Santina, I think her name is, has said she wouldn't shag lots of people relentlessly throughout her career. but no one paid any attention to that. And then the next night, after that little dwarf Greek chap, what's his name, Angelo, the little miniature Greek thing, that's the chief executive TV news.

Yeah, that's the one, Frankopoulos. After he'd done his apology tour, they then did, have I got news for you the next night, and went and started talking about whether they shag me. I think I got a yes from Borderman, which is going to give me nightmares. But the point is, women keep going on about the facts you in my body, my choice.

I was giving you a choice. saying I wouldn't want to shag it. And, you know, could I have made it more articulately? Yes, do I regret it? Not for a second. Was it a huge overreaction? Because men are basically bullied relentlessly by feminists and feminism. Yeah, that's what I think.

Yeah. I stand by it, like I do most things I say. Anime Mangan, take him down. Is it disgusting? What I said? Diplore. Did you ever apologise to her? Yeah, I did, yeah.

Did she accept it? No. No. Why would she? And... I think the one thing you did do was give GB news, the opportunity to show they did have some production values. I suppose that was a good thing.

And 9,000 people, was it complained? 8,000. The off-communist, in a campaign led by Carol Vornun. And it's just the low, I mean, you're the lowest of the low for saying that. Oh, no, that's that deplorable, despicable, low. Do you get my point, though? In a way. Well, I thought women were always going on about the fact that it's like,

you know my body my choice I'm like decision for me so a man turns around and goes I wouldn't want to shag that then because you're a woke boring feminist and they're like no you should want to shag me just tell me what the rules are if you two were in the pub and that had happened yeah then

oh come on it happens all the damn time yeah you should have got a glass or something in your face I mean that would have been well I mean I think she read by should have had his balls chopped off but that didn't happen either who said that well I'm just saying to you you're talking about proportionality and punishments I said who would shag that and they did a a whole apology tour where Dan got fired.

Fortunately, he's now much richer than he ever was then. And I got fired. I don't care. Who cares? I mean, a free speech is worth it. And what happened was the same narrative, which is perpetuated over and over and over. And you think it's okay to attack people

if physically attack someone if they say something that... Physically attack. Cross water in the face. Oh, for sure. A glass of beer in the face. Yeah, because you needed a quick, short, sharp shock. And you always bad for laughing at it. The kind people.

Oh, Anna. You are. You were supposed to be, what's the word when you're the person in the middle, like you are now? Yeah, moderator. Yeah, you're the moderator. So you joined it. You thought that was funny, did you? Well, I think, firstly, what I find so funny is that obviously I had to think about this moment so many times.

Luckily, haven't thought about it for a very long time. And it's really interesting watching it there because I was doing that thing that you have to do at GB News. It's so exhausting. I don't know if you guys could see, but I had my iPad, same iPad. And I was like, oh God. He's just said something. They're going to tell me, I've got to do that faux balance thing. What is she saying?

They hadn't provided me the statement. But actually, I had always said when I joined GV News, and maybe they shouldn't have hired me, Aname, for that reason. I'd always said they had this guy called Nick. Hilariously, he used to run Sly News, right? So he's a total wotopian. I can't remember his last name. Nick, he did all of the off-communist stuff.

And he was meant to make you, like, compliant for working at G. No, all. And Nick Pollard. Nick Pollard was his name. And he's totally corrupted, you know, as a totally hard-left mainstream media creep. And he was in there trying to teach us how we were meant to broadcast.

And I always said, right from day one, from the chief executive down, I'm not playing your stupid game. I'm not going to be Mr. Devils advocate. I'm not going to just say that I disagree with a guest for the sake of it or put an opposing argument for the sake of it. And because they wanted the ratings

and they were loving the ratings that people like Lawrence and I were giving them, they were prepared to go with that until it all exploded in their face. So do I feel like I should have like come in and said, Lawrence, you terrible human being, I'm so sorry

I'm going to apologize on behalf of Lawrence now that was a really, no, no, that wouldn't have been me it wouldn't have been honest. I think Dan, I smirked. When I watched, you just saw it. You were laughing uncomfortably. That was my take on it. But ultimately, Lawrence... But I don't think what Lawrence said was really

offensive. I think what would I think what was much more offensive is the fact, and everyone forgets this, that that vile woman, Ava Santina, basically didn't want there to be a minister for men. She doesn't give a damn about male suicide. That's what sparked the whole conversation. She didn't say it in so many words. But the point is, the point is, you brought into the conversation and the debate for sexuality,

and you do not do that. Why not? Are you going to, should we talk about, you know, would you shag this? No, I don't. I think that's inappropriate. I'm having to talk about it should you want to. No, I'm not. It shouldn't be a part of the conversation.

Exactly. And even so, it shouldn't be a part of the conversation. But you can't win. You can't win. No, no, no. Because I came in anime and again, I was trying to do like a little bit of like, like, oh, balance because I was being told all of this. And I said, do you remember, Lawrence?

I said, well, she's actually a very beautiful woman. Then, hilariously, when the off-communists came back with their finding, they said that me as a gay mask, was being misogynistic for saying that she was a very beautiful woman. So you can't win. You're in trouble if you say you don't want to shag that. You're in trouble if you say that she was a very beautiful woman. You cannot win.

And this is the mad wokery why people no longer watch GB News and no longer watch. I think both of sexuality in a news program has no place in my opinion. I'm sorry, Lange. It's all right. I know. I know. You're right. It's pub language.

And what makes you think you're shaggable anyway? I know I'm shaggable. And it's pub language. And I get it. They have it in a pub. Don't have it on national TV. Hang on. This is a late night show.

It's the news. And what people miss about... A news program. With some entertainment values. Everyone misses. I've just seen that for the first time in what I've only two years. I've just seen it. The bit that no one talks about is when I go,

we need strong, powerful, independent women out there. Not these... Who case? It doesn't matter. You said you wouldn't shag her. Because I don't want to shag her. I thought she'd be thrilled. She's woke.

You know, I'm a far... It doesn't matter. You still don't bring her sexuality into a debate. But Amy, then Amy, then you've never experienced that. I'd rather throw a drink in my face and have a debate. If you'd say, yes, in a pub setting, not obviously, I think this is forget your broadcasting. Did you forget?

I was just having a nice time. Oh, it's. And encouraged by the host. But anime, Amy, well, absolutely, my show on GB News, and again, they loved it because it was the only show when GB News launched that got any ratings. It was a great show down. No, no, no, the whole point of that show was that it.

wasn't meant to be like everything else that was on television. We were actually meant to speak like human beings. And so sometimes that did mean that a guest might go a bit far. Not just Lawrence, by the way. You know, I'd have Nurenda Kauron saying that Rishi Sunak was a coconut. And that was all part of the... She's a woman, though. Does it ever occur to you that the thoughts you have, and I'm not the thought,

please, you can think what you like, but are there settings in which you shouldn't say the things that come into your head? Is that not intelligence? Does it ever occur to... Does it ever occur to you that if you were discussing a topic on a panel show to actually watch the topic, the speech and... Are we still talking about Enoch Powell? I'm just saying don't lecture people.

Don't lecture people. I'm not. I'm actually protesting on her behalf. That's not lecturing. You've got to stop protesting on people's behalf. They can do it by themselves. We're all have agency. We all have agency and she did.

Don't worry. And the next night she was on telly, the next night she was on mainstream television, watched by many more people saying I wouldn't shagging. She's launched an anime. She's launched a whole conference. She loved it. She's launched a whole career off it. She did a big shoot with the daily mail. She was paid a lot of money saying this was so terrible.

Come on. I've made a lot of those people very fast. Let's just bring it back down. I asked you a question you threw in a hell back in my face. Are you aware that there are things that you can think but not say in order not to upset people, not to lose your job, not to, yeah, offend women, offend all the women who heard you say that? I wouldn't have offended my wife.

And it wouldn't have offended my sister who's left wing. It wouldn't have offended anybody who is actually, doesn't weaponise. The answer, what's the answer? Which question I'll give the yes or no answer? When you think it, do you have to say it? Yeah. Because I'm teaching my 71-1-onsile.

I have absolutely, well, don't. I have absolutely the right to. Would you have the same conversation in a pub as you would on the news? Yeah. G.B. News. Can you curse on G.B. News? Yes. Did you?

Yes. Did you? I mean, I didn't say fuck. Okay. I think we are the victims. So you and I, to be fair, I, My reflection on this is that we are the victims of the fact that we're so used to watching people like Megan and stuff like that. Megan Kelly, someone like that.

They're just like, fuck you, Trump or whatever. She's saying, we got to use to that. But genuinely with me, I mean, I hold my hands up like I was absolutely attempting to do something different. People forget that when GB News launched, it was a complete and utter disastrous mess. That channel had no idea what it was during the day. Does it now? Well, now it definitely doesn't know what it is apart from being. a propaganda's vehicle for Nigel Farage.

But what I was doing was absolutely, as Lawrence says, about trying to bring the American style of broadcasting, which is much more honest, much more forthright, much less scripted onto British television. And people wanted to shut it down. And why were people so desperate to shut down that show? And I don't give a damn of people try and say that I'm being a conspiracist about this,

because it was the first GBM News show that regularly every single night thrashed Sly News, thrash the BBC. They were looking for a reason to take a reason to take it off here. And unfortunately what G.B News did was given to the mob. And their presenters are now cucked and censored. And anime, you may love that.

Because, yeah, you're not going to get the conversation that's had down at the pub. But I actually think it's very boring as a result. You two have a show and call yourself Lad's Tele. I mean, that's really what this is about, isn't it? Write that down. Oh, yeah, I'm such a lad, aren't I? I don't think I've ever been called a lad in my life. You're certainly in my estimation, I'm not a lad.

I'm a, I, you, at the beginning of the conversation, you said, are you a posh boy from public school? And then, now I'm a lad. Yeah, you can be a lad as well. Now I'm a sort of dirty, dirty white kid from down the pub. I was a posh white dirty kid up from the posh land.

And now I'm a dirty white to play. You'd like, make your mind up. Look, the point for me is that that moment did not deserve the cultural significance of had in the United States. It deserved to lead the British Bashing Corporation. Sorry. It deserved to lead the news on the British Bashing Corporation when Pakistani Muslim rape gangs don't.

That is utter rubbish anime. That was designed to shut down G.B. News to shut down myself, to shut down Lawrence Farns. Do you think Hugh Edwards, do you think Hugh Edwards has a responsibility as a national broadcaster who oversaw the Queen's funeral not to have category A images

of the most depraved images of sexual abuse of children while still being paid $300,000 in a pension and actually looking for a way back into the establishment. Do you think my pub banter is in any way comparable? I wouldn't shagger. That's more than pub banter. I mean, that's Miss Arneme. And you're on telling.

Lawrence is making a good point. They cared more about that than they did Huid was being a paedophile. That is a fact. You didn't see news night, night after night. You two are desperate to get off his subject because you both know. that you did wrong. Yes, you did. I've already admitted.

You asked me at the beginning of the conversation. So now we've got Hugh Edwards. Who else do they bring up? I can't remember now. There's a very long list of them. They find them every way you can. You know, do it all. What are you waiting for?

Well, that's what we do now. Not get the willies out, but we do it. If only we did, if only we did. You can here. You can. Yes. But the point is, and what. And what?

You have to follow. Why stop at teleglies out? Why stop? draw the line at denigrating women. Go further. Yeah, do children. It's great. It's a huge entertainment.

Well, the thing is, is that I actually genuinely believe that that moment was totally designed to shut down GB News. And it did shut. Oh, he said, Lawrence was a spy then? Who was that?

Who was he acting for? No, I'm not sorry. The Jews. I worked for this jewels. How old is your stepdaughter? How old is your stepdaughter? How old is your stepdaughter? Fifteen.

So how would you like, if you overheard someone saying, I would or wouldn't shag that? You would think it's disresist. respectful, misogynistic, and just disgusting. Sorry, are you asking me what I think? I am. I'm doing both. Are you telling me what to think? Okay, so my relationship where I stepdaughter is private, but put it this way,

kids nowadays, they speak in a slightly different way. All kids do. The stuff I hear when I go into school gates pick up any of my children. Some go to private school, some go to public school. The language that children use because their parents refuse to parent them because they're trying too busy trying to tell them what to think rather than how to have decent manners is astonishing. So my stepdaughter, the thing I am incredibly proud of her

because within her own achievement circle at this current moment, she's doing incredibly. And that's all I care about. I don't want to please what she says. That was a long non-answer to her question. No, it's called the Considerdial.

I asked you how you would feel. I feel absolutely fine. She was sitting here and someone other than Dan said, laughing at her together. I'd feel fine. Not really, I don't believe you. It's totally.

It's completely fine. Again, it's so easy. Again, but it's. Why are the end. insults of the personal insults. You just said it's okay. If two adult males were broadcasting, insulted your daughter and laugh at her. Just so we're clear. Just so we're clear. Just so we're clear before I get annoyed with you. No, I need to. Just so we're clear, you're not putting this on this earth to judge me. You're not. I'm not judging

you. No, you're not. No, you're not. Oh, you're very touchy now. You're taking it. No, I'm, I'm getting it. No, I'm get, we're not debating. You don't debate ideas. You attack people. Stop it. I do not attack people. It's boring. It's boring. You think I've attacked you. You've You think you can say. You think you can say. Okay, I'll say it one more time. What I'm talking about is the things that he says. The things that he says.

Get an argument. Don't attack people. Dad of the year. You don't like that one. You said it's okay for two broadcasters to laugh at your daughter. And you would be happy with that. I tell you what. This is why.

Here's why you can't talk to the left at all. I'm not left. Because they judge you. They judge you. They think they think in the absence of God that their own personal confected fake morality is more important than yours. And what they do is they, and also they're arguments pathetic. So what they do is they attack you,

where they cancel you and they destroy you? And do you know what's coming on May the 7th? Do you know what's fine? Do you know what's coming on May the 7th? The end of your way of thinking, it's finished. The people are going to be heard now. What did you say the middle name was? Rant.

That's fine. Rant. You can call me rant, Lawrence. It's the end. You can talk, but you can't listen. Oh, another one. Okay. Well, look, let's let's listen.

Let's move on. But this is called the takedown and I am loving it. You're taking them down anyway. You're taking them down Anna and Zell. Amy Ansel. Over the last 10 years, art and culture have been flooded with woke political activism, with right wingers and even those who aren't political but don't sign up to the woke mine virus banished from the show business and entertainment industries. Now, one person who lost his acting career as a result of the woke takeover of the Showbiz is with me right now. This is the clash takedown with Lawrence Fox going head to head with Amy Anzal and Anna May Mangon on this actual issue. So Lawrence, you've got a minute. How has Woke ruined showbiz? And I believe you have a bit of an exclusive to share with us too. Yeah, I do.

Woke's ruined show business because Shakespeare gave, there's a scene in Hamlet. If you read it, it's in Act 3, I think the scene, I'm over 5. But where Hamlet gives, where the actors give advice to Hamlet, it says, do, it he advises art as being something to hold a mirror up to nature. So the whole point of art is to be countercultural necessarily. And show business has become a moral lecture of the kind of sorts that I've heard from both of you today, which is like the underrepresentation of black people

or whatever we want to call them this week. Sorry, the K word, sorry, the K word. The underrepresentation acts. A moral lecture, it's very, very boring. And as a result, the product, the quality of the product is much, much less. and then your respect for the performers loses. So I used to look at Robert De Niro and go, what a fine actor.

And now I look at him and I go, you're a deranged psychopath who encourages violence against the US presidents. So I would like to see a world where art didn't run alongside the political consensus. It ran in contention to it. And we saw much more plurality of views and I think we'd all have more to talk about.

And your little exclusive is, seeing as I've started picking up the large paychecks now, I thought to myself, I'm a creative, I spent 22 years, You may never have seen anything I've done. That's fine. I don't, you're missing out. It's, it's thing.

I've started winning a lot of money for people attacking me in a way which is not true and making false statements about me. And sorry for being touchy about it, but it destroyed my life. And so what I'm doing with the money is I'm going to use it. I'm investing all of it into exactly what I've just said. And that's the first $482,000 are in process. Make sure there's a plurality of use, the kind you won't like. And neither will you.

There we are. explain a bit more? Well, I'm going to start up a basically a non-political arts organisation and production company. To make what, to make films, theatre, I'm going to go into schools

and I'm going to go, write me something about Britain. It doesn't need to be like, wow, flag, shaggy, whatever, and it doesn't need to be, I'm going to say, write me to young people to get them thinking, not the crap that they're taught in schools, the stuff to think, here's a 10,000 pound prize,

for you if you write me this and I'll stick it on in the theatre and people will come and watch it. That's how you beat the people. You can't beat them politically. You've been them culturally. Well, I think that's... We've already beaten them politically. I think that's a wonderful idea. However, the format of this show is that anime mangan and Amy Anzal are here to take you down, Amy. You kick off. Well, Woke has definitely not destroyed showbiz. I'm loving recent theatrical productions, TV shows I've seen like Bridgeton with the Queen was cast

I'm loving it because it's made first of all our society our society is different and a trans Queen Elizabeth Our society is different and therefore different people have to relate to different characters they see in different ways I think it opens up our minds to see things in different ways

I saw the Little Mermaid the movie the original one with a white mermaid, and then I saw the recent one with the black mermaid, and I loved every minute of it because I questioned, you know, questions, what are princesses nowadays? Are they black? Are they white? And how does that affect mixed race, black people, minorities, seeing these people cast? I mean, a lot of black actors, I know they've said, you know, there's so few black leading women in musicals. I come from a musicals background, and I've heard that time and time again, and I'm seeing changes. I'm seeing Audra McDonald play Mama Rose and Gypsy

or Cynthia Revo playing Jesus even in California. So I'm loving it because it just, it makes us thing twice. Because a question. Why should there always be traditional casting? What does that do for anyone? It's not traditional casting. Yeah, it's as you think it should be. It's like, well, maybe it shouldn't be that.

Maybe it shouldn't be that. I'll tell you a story. They'll prove my point for me. Right. Okay. So I did this job for Netflix called White Lines. It was the last job I ever did, okay? And I got the job in the room.

I was offered the job in the room as a Mancunian gay, Mancunian drug dealer, and I got after the job in the room. And then I waited two weeks. I didn't get a message back about it, and they said, well, the other person has got to be black. And I went, why? And I went, well, because I got to be black because you're white. And I went, what a horrible thing to do to a black person

to give them a job just because they're back. And what they did was they gave. That's their choice as a casting director and director. That's not how it used to work motor critically. Things changed. Well, in a bad way, for the worst. No, not my opinion. So the question, well, I'm just going to read what actually happened from my lived experience.

Go ahead. So when I went on to set, the black girl who'd been cast walked up to me and said, I only got this job because I'm black, I feel terrible. I don't feel valued. I don't. As a woman, I don't feel valued. So she knew. Yeah, yeah. She'd been told, too.

And then I sat at the flip side of it was I then sat on a table with a load of young black actresses who were on 25,000 pounds a week complaining about racism. And then I just thought, you know what, this is nothing is more boring than this. I mean, Amy, would you want to get a job? because of your skin color? It depends on the project. It depends on how the project has been done before, if there are previous versions of it.

I think when there, especially when there's previous... So you'd be okay with it? Yeah, I think if there's previous versions of a show that we all know has been done this way time and time again, to change up their casting just adds a really interesting slant. And also, people that go see it, there's a new wave of audiences that are going to see shows that aren't necessarily white upper middle.

class people. So I think it allows them to really enjoy. I think they do, but not as much in the past. This is all right. Can I ask you a question? I'm talking about New York Broadway shows where I grew up. I've seen what I've seen. A boy one. A black one. Say that again, sorry.

Two actors, same role, both as good as each other. Nothing separate them from apart. Which one do you hire? It depends on the show that I'm casting or producing. It just depends. It's a show about Martin Luther King's. It's Martin Luther King's world. No, it depends. Has there been a previous version before?

Do we know about it? I'll give you the casting. There's so many more factors. You can't just go. The film is called, the musical is called Martin Luther King's wife, right? And the two actors, they're both amazing, but one of them is white. And they're both great singers, but they have to play Martin Luther King's wife, which do you hire the black or the white? It depends.

Oh, Amy, come on. I haven't seen, ma'am. I want to know their social media following. I want to know their popularity and their commercial viability. Can you just be honest about this? because this is one of the huge issues with what Lawrence is talking about. Yet again,

we know that colour blind casting only applies when you're talking about making white characters and ethnic minority. It never goes around the other way. Lawrence would never be able to play Nelson Mandela and you know it.

White don't. Wow. Wow, Lawrence. Anime Mangon, take him down. Take him down. In showbiz, what is it for? What are the plays? What are the programs?

What are the radio shows? Who are they for? Like I said, they're to hold a mirror up to nature. They're to remind you of the madness. Like in Bertolt Brex's time. Okay, so who's the audience? The audience is whoever can't see it. Exactly.

The audience is everybody. So therefore they should be reflected on screen all the time. And the current best program on HBO is the pit. Have you watched that? No. It's superb and everything, everyone's in there. Disabled people. I don't know how you feel about them.

The people of colour. Oh, you know who I hate more than the kids. And the ns, the disabled. A nurse who wears a headscarf. They're all represented. A nurse who wears a headscarf. And it's the best thing that's ever been on telly. And so there it is.

All inclusive. I said I might give that one a miss. It's no. Go-go. The lead actor is a white man. White privilege. A white straight man. Straight as well.

I'm leaving. No, I'm telling you, it's for the audience. It's only racist who give a shit about skin color. That's the problem with it. Where I would draw the line here is. It's animated. Do you genuinely watch that drama and think, oh, this is great because there's a nurse.

I've got a daughter who works in A&E, and she said it's so realistic. It's exactly what the real world is like. Well, it is now. There are very few English people. It's not good. Exclude pockets of the population from, because you want to see more people like you on the telly.

Oh, yeah. I don't feel comfortable when I say white people. Hamlet. We'll do Hamlet all the time. We'll do Hamlet with white people. Adrian Leslie, I went to drama school. It was a wonderful black actor played Hamlet. and we never, not once was it ever mentioned.

Not once did any newspaper go, first black hamleth, isn't it wonderful these black cameramen? They just went, Adrian S is a great actor. Denza Washington, great actor. No, your point is we've got to focus on the color of the skin rather than the quality of the talent. How do you know what went into the casting? How do you know what went on behind the scenes as the casting director?

Maybe they cast him on purpose because he was a great actor, and he was black. But none of the, none of the newspapers was about that. They didn't have to. That's because it spoke for itself. Okay, so you're actually going to try and make the argument that the more brown and black people we get into this country, the more we've got to talk about brown and black people in this country.

I didn't say that. They're represented. They are represented. But anime, you must acknowledge that diversity on screen is nothing to do with how life actually looks out there on the streets. I don't know, I live in Brent. I think it looks pretty much like in the shops. In Brent, but come on. And that is the problem.

That is the problem. That is the problem. We are... South Oxford, South Oxford with the Cameron's live. We're going to do big... Tell you what, we'll have more television dramas with Kitchen Islands, the size of Wales, and people drinking chardonnay around it.

All of them white, all of the middle class. Yeah, bring it on. Who's watching that? Is it acceptable? Is it acceptable that I have been accused of racism for saying that woke ITV is wrong for consistently putting on a panel show called loose women, where they have four women

who sit around the table and meant to reflect Britain and very... I call that gagged women because they don't speak. Well, that's true. That's very true. That's very true. And I agree with you on that. But what they do these days is put four Afro-Caribbean women who all think the same and all live in London on the same panel for black faces.

And that is meant to be diversity. That's not diversity to me. The audience will appreciate that. The black women watching it might appreciate that. And what percentage to the country is black women? Oh, I don't know that. Do you know that? Well, I know that the population is about 8 to 9%.

So it would be 4%. So therefore they shouldn't be represented. I'll tell you what I hate most. You're not getting rid of it all by just being meritocratic and just go, you know what, let's find four people with four different opinions. Let's not care about what colour their skin is. Let's stick them on TV and let them have a good old ding-dong. And one of the ways that you don't increase the viability and the sustainability of a culture

is by trying to police the way people speak, which is why I deliberately use offensive language to certain people. But I do it in a measured way. A lot of actors mistake their role and they think they're there as spokesmen. I'm not an actor.

I'm not an actor. I am a speech person. I am a spokesperson. I'm talking to you. I'm talking about Emma Thompson. I'm talking about Benedict Cumberjit. I'm talking about David Tennant. All of them.

Shut up. I don't care. Benedict Cumberdick. Come on. I don't know. I'm not there yet. We're nearly there. Come on.

You're meant to be taking them down. I'm not agreeing with her. Air fist bump. Come on. Air fist bump. Come on, an air fistball. Yay! Okay, well, look, we've got to wrap it at that point.

Because I'm like, I've actually agreed on something. Amy, Ansel, final word to you? Well, like I said, I think that show biz has not been destroyed by wokeness, and I love the diversity I'm seeing. I'm loving the inclusive casting. Being a former actor and a producer myself, it's where I would go with shows that I would be producing, and I think we're going to see so much more greatness.

You'd be happy to miss out on role. because you are a privileged, terrible, white, middle-class American woman. If that's the way the cookie crumbled for that particular part and that particular show, there's lots more great opportunities. There's lots more great opportunities. Just deal with it. As you know, rejection is a big part of the process when you're an actor. So you would just accept it, whether it's because of the color of your skin or your acting ability.

and just wait for the next job opportunity. And that's how showbiz is as an actor. That's the truth. It just works a lot better when you don't get the job because of your talent rather than what clue of skin is. But that's part of it now. That's how it is. I'm speaking the truth.

It might be how it is, but it is dreadful that Turkey's here sitting down going, oh, look, it's May. Soon we'll be beginning for Christmas. What are we going to have for Christmas this year? You're not a very good turkey. Maybe that's why he didn't get the jobs. So on top of everything

On top of everything I'm a shit-turking person And Lawrence is it true Lawrence is it true And apologies this is a difficult issue But I just thought of it Is it true that quite recently You were banned from your own family

At your own personal family funeral Because of your politics No because it's not because of my politics It's because of the media's coverage of my politics Got it. So they just didn't Because there are a lot of high profile foxes at that event and other people they didn't want it to do. Yeah.

That was your uncle. That was my uncle. But to be fair. So you couldn't go to your own uncle's funeral? Well, no, I could if I wanted. But it was made clear. And also it's not about me. It's about his kids and his family.

So I'm, like you say, you know, sometimes you've got to be the bigger person and all that. You see? I'm very, I'm very. No, but that shows to me. This is all part of shows. Also, I don't know these people. And, I don't know any of these people. And I may, that's terrible.

That's consequences. they're not putting a break on your rain, isn't it? Sometimes. There you go, which is some water in your face. Well, we can agree to disagree. There's the technique. Did you enjoy it? Did you enjoy it?

Thank you. Lawrence. I really enjoy it. I'm sorry if I got, I get a bit upset because... Don't apologise. I'm fine. No, no, because I think it's worth leaving on good terms of people. Oh, we are?

And who did the best take down? I think... Can we do Boxers' hands? Boxes. I've got sweaty palms on the blog. No, I'm going to have a good. Okay, best takedown. The winner is.

Oh. Really? Well, you held your, you stick to the thing. Well, yeah. You're like, you're like, yeah, I don't mind you. Because you feel like anime came for you too much person. No, no, I think anime is kind of going, yeah, some of this stuff is insane. I see. And therefore she can see it.

So you think you won anime over. No, I think she's on the way to becoming a way too right, way too often far too right, far too often extremists. You're saying I've got tendencies. The leanings are there. And just finally, Anna Mae and Amy, please be honest about this. Please be honest. Did Lawrence change your mind even just a little bit?

I think he did on that Enoch Powell conversation. He did, but I actually found him more offensive than I thought I would. Okay. But he did change your mind on Enoch Powell though. There were strands in each of the topics. I mean, I know you were very offended. I should disagree with him. But I just think that, like, when kids, it's not, you're not naughty, but what you say is naughty.

That's what I say to my grandchildren. We need more naughtiness in this way. Amy Anselt, did he convince you on anything? I wasn't convinced, especially about the wooden shag that comment. I don't think I'd ever see differently. I really tried to be open-minded, but I just, I don't see anything about that that was right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. All right. No problem.

Been a turkey. Watch this face. Okay. Well, I hope you enjoyed it because guess what? We're doing it all again tomorrow with Mike Graham. The former talk TV legend now host of the hit independent show, the Mike Graham show on YouTube and Substack. Also the host of the original Plank of the Week. Oh my goodness. I am excited about this. But right now, we're moving over to Substance.

for the Royal Uncanceled Aftershow, www. www. outspoken. Live is the address. Remember, we are available as a podcast too, which you can subscribe to an Apple,

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