Dan Wootton Outspoken - Calvin Robinson on James O’Brien outrage over Trump slur & Angela Levin Sussex exclusive | OUTSPOKEN EP 9

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

To watch the exclusive Uncancelled After Show, sign up at: https://outspoken.live/premium Father Calvin Robinson joins Dan to discuss the MSM hypocrisy over Donald Trump, as James O'Brien comments where he suggested folk should "take a shot" at the former President go viral and Majorie Taylor Green lashes out at a Times journalist. Plus, the BBC is mired in controversy over Strictly Come Dancing. And Angela Levin with a major royal exclusive on King Charles making a new decision over Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. To watch the exclusive Uncancelled After Show with more royal exclusives from Angela Levin, sign up at: https://outspoken.live/premium LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for new videos every day:    / @danwoottonoutspoken   ---------- Today’s Sponsor: VERSO - https://buy.ver.so/outspoken - Use code OUTSPOKEN to save 15% on your first order. ---------- #NigelFarage #reformuk #UKelection #news #royal #donaldtrumpnews #donaldtrump #gbnews #danwootton #jdvance #joebiden #princeharry #meghanmarkle To make sure you never miss a single Dan Wootton Outspoken video, click here to subscribe: Dan Wootton Outspoken is fan funded through monthly and one-time donations: https://www.outspoken.live/premium ---------- Join Dan's Substack community: https://www.danwoottonoutspoken.com ---------- Follow Dan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@outspokendan?... Follow Dan on Twitter: https://x.com/danwootton Follow Dan on Facebook:   / danwootton   Follow Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danwootton/... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No spin, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Wharton. This is Outspoken Live, episode number nine. And the left continue to refuse to accept their inhumane and downright dangerous rhetoric and endangered President Trump before the assassination attempt that nearly took his life on Saturday night. But more and more evidence is emerging, including this from Britain's number one left-wing radio host, the despicable troll, James O'Brien. So if anyone wants to take a shot at Trump, maybe they should make it.

Not literally, obviously. Although on second thought, we're just coming up to noon. Now, I'm a free speech absolutist. So unlike that guy, I'm actually not calling for O'Brien to be locked up or to lose his entire career. But what I am doing is calling out the sickening hypocrisy of the MSM and the left. So is Marjorie Taylor Greene. And my goodness, I am going to play you her astonishing takedown of a biased British journalist shortly in the digest.

You're not going to want to miss it. Also coming up today, Father Calvin Robinson on whether Priti Patel can save the Conservative Party as she prepares to launch an audacious leadership bid to steal the right-wing support from Suella Braverman. Plus, as Strictly Come Dancing is mired in scandal, is this an MSM witch hunt against the male professionals or another Jimmy Savile-type scandal engulfing the BBC? We'll discuss. And our royal mastermind Angela Levin returns with a major exclusive on why king

charles is banning prince harry and megan markle from his balmoral summer holiday you're not going to want to miss that from angela plus she's got so much more too plus very excited about this angela levin is sticking around to answer your questions in our uncancelled after show where we come off big tech to truly unleash. So remember to sign up right now at www.outspoken.live. Click the sign up button and you will get 30 minutes extra content completely uncensored every single day. That's www.outspoken.live. Remember too to hit subscribe right now if you're watching on YouTube and Rumble. Come on, do it. Click the subscribe button right now and turn on your notifications because you're going to hear from us every weekday. But for now, let's go.

Predictably, there has been absolutely no reckoning on the left about how their despicable, heightened violent rhetoric of bullseyes and Hitler and Nazi comparisons helped create an environment where Thomas Matthew Crooks nearly took the life of President Trump. Indeed it's only the independent media, like this show, and on X under Elon Musk, that is producing the receipts of how the rhetoric of leftist commentators and broadcasters was nothing short of dangerous. The best example comes in the form of the hate-filled James O'Brien. This guy is a mainstream hard left presenter on the UK's biggest commercial news station

LBC. But just listen to the way he actively encouraged his millions of listeners to take a shot at Donald Trump with absolutely no blowback or pushback. Watch. So if anyone wants to take a shot at Trump, maybe they should make it. Not literally, obviously. Although on second thought, we're just coming up to noon. Now, it is genuinely astonishing that he was able to say such a thing with literally no consequences. I'm a free speech absolutist, so he can go right ahead. And I need to be clear about this because it is a nuanced and important point. Today, I am not calling for O'Brien to be sacked. I just think his comments reveal the true character of

the slimeball. But we know full well that is not the environment in which the British media operates. On the right, we are lambasted and censored and shut down for anything the woke left considers unacceptable to their narrative. As Chris Rose wrote, for consistency, James O'Brien should be reported to Ofcom since he would be the first to complain if AGB news hosts said this about Biden. And Lawrence Fox posted on X, thank God he's only advocating for the assassination of a presidential candidate and not saying something truly dangerous like he doesn't want to shag someone. Move along, Ofcom. Nothing to see here. And look, of course, this situation is pretty personal for Lawrence and I. You probably know the media hysteria surrounding his comments on my former GB News show that he didn't want to shag the left-wing journalist,va Santino that caused such a storm

we were both driven from our jobs. Now remember, I didn't even actually say anything other than awkwardly laugh and then push back and claim that Ava was a beautiful woman. But still, the MSM sent film crews to outside my house. The off communists tried to brand me misogynist and my employers pathetically gave into the woke mob. When you consider the rank hypocrisy over the past few days from the British MSM, it is unquestionable that they are now the enemy of the people, dying and not to be trusted. So I salute this epic takedown by MAGA Republican Marjorie Taylor Green to a British reporter from Times Radio. Now, she was attempting to create a gotcha moment over these jokey but all too real comments from J.D. Vance suggesting the UK could become the world's

first Islamist nuclear superpower. By the way, I have to beat up on the UK just one one additional thing. I was talking with a friend recently. And we were talking about, you know, one of the big dangers in the world, of course, is nuclear proliferation, though, of course, the Biden administration doesn't care about it. And I was talking about, you know, what is the first truly Islamist country that will get a nuclear weapon? And we were like like maybe it's Iran you know maybe Pakistan already kind of counts and then we sort of finally decided maybe it's actually the UK since labor just took over but but to my Tory friends I have to say um you guys have got to get you gotta get a handle on this

but neither here nor there no No outrage right about that comment. I think he's talking sense and actually was providing some levity to a serious point as well. But Marjorie Taylor Greene, she was not having any of the ball from the British MSM. And this, what I'm about to show you, is one of the best media takedowns I've ever seen. So Vance, he said that the UK could be the first Islamist country with nuclear weapons under the new Labour government. Doesn't that paint a sour picture for relations with the UK? Well, let's talk about the words of the Democrats and Joe Biden that have also labelled President Trump as a fascist, labelled all of us as us as not Lisa and Hitler, completely lied, demonizing him so much so that a young man, a 20-year-old, which is hard to imagine,

actually climbed onto a roof and tried to murder President Trump. Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, let's talk about people like you. Where's your evidence of that? No, let's talk about people like you that demonize people like me, President Trump. You know, I have some of the most highest amount of death threats because of people like you, because you choose to only take certain words from people,

and then that's what you want to report. Shame on you. Shame on you. Because of evidence. No, no, no, no, no. You're the problem. And where's this woman from? The Times.

You're from The Times? Okay, you're ridiculous, and you're the problem in our country. You lie about people like me. This is the first time you've ever talked to me. I want you to know, I'm a regular person like you. I'm also a mom. I have three kids. And we have to put up with the most unreal amount of bullshit because of little liars

like you that take your job and turn it into political activism. Your job is the press. You should report the news, not lie about it. You don't get to ask any more questions. I'm done with you because you're the cause. You're the cause of our country being divided. You're the cause of our country being divided. You're the cause of President Trump almost being assassinated. You're the cause of everything wrong in America. No, no, you're done. You're done cause of everything wrong in America. But what is the evidence for those claims? No, no, you're done. You're done.

Yeah, go back. Go back. Thank you. Inject me with that. Loved it. And look, there are countless examples of the be kind left being shown up over the past few days. Like this rainbow-masked-clad anti-Trump protester talking about being worried about political violence

all while advocating for the shooting of Trump. Can I get your reaction to what happened the other day? Well it's a shame the person missed but it's ironic that the shooter was also Republican and I am scared about political violence. You're scared of political violence but you were hoping that he wouldn't have missed? Yes. Wow. These people.

It would be funny if they weren't so sick. And of course Jack Black has turned on his Tenacious D bandmate Kyle G, who made this joke about wanting Trump to be shot dead on stage in Australia. And the left are getting a piece of their own medicine. That bloke, Gas, has had his agent dump him. Jack Black, his best mate, has cancelled the tenacious detour and wants nothing to do with him. So it's now happening to the other side of politics. And I want to be really clear. I'm not advocating for the cancellation of folk who make jokes or even those who make revolting comments. We have to be able to do that. But what I am saying is that the hypocrisy and bias in the MSM and political establishment over what is considered acceptable on the left and on the right

is bordering on psychotic. But to react to that and so much more, Father Calvin Robinson is today's outsider. Calvin Robinson, this is such an interesting one, isn't it? for a second if you or i had half jokingly called on joe biden to be shot and then there was an assassination attempt against him we would be removed from polite society it would be leading international headlines around the world but when it's james o'brien let's just turn the other way right this is the problem dan i forget how many times we've been cancelled between us now. I've been cancelled from GB News, the Church of England, the Conservative Party.

If you or I say or does anything that the left do not like, they will chop our heads off without even thinking about it. But now the shoe is on the other foot. Now it's the left who are in trouble. And actually, I don't think we have to be as generous. I don't think we have to say, no, we're not calling for cancelled culture. I think when someone like James O'Brien incites violence for the death of the leader of the previous leader of the free world, we should absolutely say, no, your job is gone. You cannot be in your job anymore. It's

inappropriate for you to be in the media and calling for a politician of another country to die. It's outrageous. outrageous the double standards they know no bounds but the problem is the left do not care about the hypocrisy all we do on the right is hold up the mirror and say look you're being a hypocrite they don't care because they hate us that much the thing is calvin i would agree to an extent but for me it's about there being a level playing field so what infuriates me is that seriously the left can act as if what lawrence said on my gb news show was some sort of crime and yet when o'brien is saying something that, it's literally just ignored. And we've seen loads of examples of this. David Aronovich, too, literally two weeks before the attempted

assassination on Trump, suggested that Biden murder Trump. He's still on the BBC. He's still broadcasting on the BBC. Nothing has been done about him. That's because you're right. David Aronovich did suggest that something should happen to Trump. He said it's just a joke. But if we make those jokes, we're held to a different standard. So everyone should be held to the same degree. And they're not. If you or I said something, Carol Vorderman

would be quote-tweeting us. There'd be a petition to get us taken off air, whether it's online or on broadcast media. It doesn't matter. They find a way. So to some degree, I think we need to play them at their own game. We need to start using their own weapons against them. And if the left crosses the line that they would hold us to, we have to hold their feet to the fire. Calvin, we've just got a problem with your video link. So what I'll do is get you to come back to us. We'll call you back. And in the meantime, I want to talk to you about why it's so important that I'm independent, because I'm only ever going

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I'm with you. But unless there are consequences to his actions, he's going to continue. And I get where you're coming from as a free speech absolutist, but even free speech absolutists say that incitement to violence crosses that line, right? You can't yell fire in a theater. And that's what James O'Brien has done. That's what David Aronovich did. This is what the left are doing now. They're actually calling for incitement to violence.

So they've crossed that Rubicon. They're no longer advocates of free speech, even if they proclaim they ever were. And so we have to give them some kind of consequences. Otherwise, there is never, ever going to be a level playing field between the left and the right. But there isn't, though. There isn't. I mean, the fact that the BBC

allows someone to continue presenting a show, even though he has called on the current president of the United States to assassinate, murder the former president of the United States, then it actually happens nearly, at least there was an attempt on the life of Trump. Still, the BBC has said absolutely nothing. David Aronovich is not excluded from polite society. It will be the same thing from LBC. So actually, when you look at what happened to you to me to lawrence fox to mark stein it was actually all about trying to stop the development of a genuine media ecosystem in this country that embraces conservative views and embraces the right

i do think calvin though they've made a mistake because actually it was much safer to have people like us as part of sort of the controlled opposition tent at GB News. The reality is now is that honest folk are realising they're not going to get on any honest reporting from the mainstream media and that's why they're turning to alternative news sources including Outspoken. This is the thing isn't it? It was never actually about what we said. On the right it's never been about what we said. Lawrence Fox said something a little bit crass. He got fired. You got fired.

I got fired. Whatever. It wasn't the words. It was who said it. They have a problem with us. We on the right tend to see the left as wrong. The left tend to see the right as evil. But the problem is their actions are evil.

And there's no self-reflection there. The clip that you showed of the purple-haired person with the rainbow-flagged face mask on, who was saying, I don't want political violence, yet I'm sorry that the shooter missed. They do not see the hypocrisy. It's cognitive dissonance. No, they don't. They don't. And it's really funny, actually. Sophie Ridge, who's one of the main presenters now on Sly News, used to be a colleague of mine in a former life. And when I criticized her very softball interviews with Slippery Starmer over the course of the election campaign, she messaged me. She clearly wasn't very happy about it.

So when David Aronovich posted that tweet, I immediately sent it to her and I said, I'm assuming you're going to want to lead your show on this. And that was because, Calvin, I don't know if you remember, but the day that everything happened with me and Lawrence at GB News, Sophie Ridge had actually hosted Gordon Brown, the former prime minister, on her show and had decided that the most important issue of the day was Lawrence Fox and Dan Wootton, where Gordon Brown said they should not ever be allowed to broadcast in the uk again do you think sophie ridge and sly news commented on those despicable threats by david aronovich to the life of donald trump at all of course they didn't i've not seen them commenting at all james O'Brien's only getting attention on social media. This is the problem. It's not about what's said, it's about who's saying it. I've often been accused

of people saying, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Again, it's not even, it's not what you say, it's not how you say it, it's the person speaking. They hate the right. They want to cancel us. They want to silence us. The only possible way we can get any ground back here is by using their own weapons against them and saying well you crossed that line that's inappropriate you are fired or we will call off calm why don't we have a petition up why don't we have a link up pointing people to offcom to get james o'brien fired because we are trying to be reasonable people and say we're above cancel culture well so be done with that this guy has called for the killing for the murder of a good man it's inappropriate it's wrong it's immoral so let's get him fired yeah so you're more in the place that madri taylor green is at

and wasn't that a beautiful exchange calvin she's like no you're done you guys have no more questions you are done you are the problem and she's right and i think this actually exemplifies what's going on in the world that people are waking up the fact that the mainstream media are part of the establishment. There once was a time where the media held the establishment to account, but now the media are part of it. I think COVID exasperated that quite a bit when governments were giving massive backhanders to the mainstream media in order to stick to the approved narrative through the trusted news initiative and things like that. But the public are waking up and politicians are waking up and saying, well, if you guys are going to paint us as the bad guys all the time why would we give you the time of day it's not worth it you know you talked about when we all had our issues with gbus when i when i left gbus i invited sky news into my sitting room because they said can we

have a chat with you so i invite them in and what do they do they try to get a gotcha moment of are you a are you a misogynist like your friend lawrence fox do you stand by lawrence fox's words i'm like i can only stand by my own words i don't know what game you're playing but i've been courteous and generous to give you the time of day to invite you into my city room and this is how you repay me but it's always the way they want that gotcha moment because they want to cancel us because they hate us exactly but then folk on the left who've said the most despicable things or done the most despicable things like alistair campbell and owen jones and never cancelled still appear on the

mainstream media and that's why calvin i don't want anything to do with them i've been asked by the british bashing corporation to appear on their shows no no no i don't trust you i don't want to be part of that ecosystem anymore we We have to create our own. And that's what I hope that I'm doing here. And I know you're doing the same thing with the brilliant Fox and Father. But look, Calvin, big developments on the political front overnight. Can the Conservative Party be saved? The jury is out in my book.

But Priti Patel, the former Home Secretary, a woman I like a lot, is planning to announce to be Tory leader. This was a fascinating photo she posted today, Calvin, looking very prime ministerial and toned before the King's speech. Do you think Priti Patel could be the answer, Calvin? That's a difficult question. Could she be the answer i'm not sure could she win it yes absolutely the membership love pretty patel parliamentarians mostly like pretty patel she's far more reasonable and seen as a bit more moderate than people like suela braverman so she has a bit of a higher chance of winning it but could she save the party i'm not sure we saw that she was very much aligned with our principles on things like immigration when she was a secretary of state, but she wasn't able to get anything done.

And so what's her track record? That's the problem. Saying good things is all great. Having good rhetoric is well and good, but unless you can actually follow through, what's the point? Yeah, I mean, look, the issue with Pretty is that she had the full force of the blob against her do you remember when she was in the home office and there was that ludicrous campaign to try and claim that she is a bully thank god boris johnson stood by her i know this woman she's delightful you know if there's one thing that pretty patel is not it's a bully i think you're right i think the whole idea here is to undercut sulla Braverman. I will tell you, I've got a lot of insight into this. I know both women, but there is no love lost between them, even though they are politically aligned. They're quite similar.

They're both former Home Secretaries. They have similar backgrounds. They dislike each other. So mark my words, this is about pretty trying to say, look, you don't want horrible Suella, but you need a right wing MP. So I'm the more palatable option. The Conservative Party MPs who are currently believing that there's any chance that the members might vote for a Tom Tugendhat or a Victoria Atkins are delusional. And this is the problem, actually, that we saw this last time around. The right side of the party was split. It was split between Kemi Badnok and Suella Bradman. And what we ended up with was either Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak.

And we might end up in a situation where I say we. I'm no longer involved because they've expelled me as a member, so I won't get to vote. And now the problem appears. Well, yeah, it might end up in the same situation. And you're right, there is a problem. I've been expelled. Carl Benjamin's recently been expelled. Ben's been expelled connor tom limson's recently been expelled so if they're getting rid of all the people on the right of the pot who's going to

be left to vote for the leadership i know that is the worry it is a huge concern however they're expelling the high profile folk like you which is absolutely outrageous and cchq need to be blown up however the rank and file grassroots still will never go for a tom toogan hart or victoria atkins so i have a good feeling that if pretty patel makes it to the final two she will win of course my big question is what about a deal with Reform UK? She's got a good personal relationship with Nigel Farage. But how is she going to tackle that? Because that is the fundamentally most important question now for the Conservative Party. Because if they think, Calvin, that they can win the next election while battling Reform UK, they are kidding themselves.

I agree. And just I think we need to be clear you said cchq needs to be blown up i agree with you metaphorically of course it needs to be demolished from the inside out just for the context of our previous conversation but yeah reform are a threat a massive threat to the right of politics right now and the conservatives need to either embrace reform come to some kind of arrangement with fraud and his friends or they need to attack embrace reform, come to some kind of arrangement with Farage and his friends, or they need to attack that core base. They need to grab those voters. And they won't do that if they lurch to the left. And I have a great fear that the Conservative Party will take a massive lurch to the left and try to become more centrist, because that's what's in their nature. They need to fight against that nature and embrace the right of British politics. Because I think they'll find

that the vast majority of people in this country are small C conservative, fed up of the way things have been going for the past, not even 14 years, but the past 24 years. We've had this Blairite policy throughout the Labour Party and through the Conservative Party, and we're ready for something different. Reformer promised a hint of that and gained a lot of prestige based on that hint. So if the Conservatives could grab that and run with it, maybe there's a chance they could save their party. But I'm not optimistic based on current events that they could actually do that. I don't think they have enough self

awareness to solve what is becoming a massive crisis in the centre right of British politics. What's interesting last night, Kelvin, as we saw in Milwaukee, where the RNC is taking place, Boris Johnson meeting Donald Trump. And Boris posted a picture of the pair of them. And obviously, there's some real kudos in the fact that Trump has still found time for Boris, given everything going on. However, they are fundamentally opposed when it comes to Ukraine. And Boris said he was certain that Trump will do the right thing from his perspective when it comes to Ukraine. But again, to me, Boris is acting delusional over that. Trump and JD Vance have a completely different philosophical position over Ukraine than neocons like Boris.

Yeah, I love the just stance, Vance bouncer stance on the on the ukraine where he said actually i'm not interested foreign politics not my thing i was like okay thankfully someone that will stand up for their own country first and foremost and put all this ukraine stuff behind this foreign proxy war behind uh but of course boris johnson is obsessed with it and it will be his downfall the fact that boris johnson got time in a room with with the future the past and future president of the united states and chose to talk about the ukraine instead of great britain that shows a confusion or a lack of priorities there and it's a great shame and it will will do him no favors but you're right that boris and uh trump have very very different opinions on what should be done in the Ukraine. I'm more in line with Donald Trump and J.D. Vance's stance that put your own country first and then help other countries, but help them in a way that isn't detrimental to your own people.

Yeah. And let's help them find peace. And, you know, on so many issues, I have supported Boris Johnson, but not all. And the fact that he was working against a peace deal, I think, will be a black mark, actually, against his name in history. Because, well, we've had 500,000 people dead now, at least. Much of the international economy was tanked. And for what? What has been achieved? There is going to have to be a deal and Trump knows that. And Zelensky will have to compromise to some degree. And we can bury our head in the sands and pretend that Putin is going to be completely defeated or that he's going to die of cancer, which is what they've been wanting to happen for years and years and years or assassinated. But we're three years in.

That hasn't happened yet. I remember being on your show at the time dan when people were talking about potential peace deal this is april a year ago wasn't it or was it two years ago now and yeah and people are talking about russia's sitting at the table the ukraine's sitting at the table there could potentially be peace boris johnson's over there and the next thing you know zelensky is backing away from these these talks it seems peace boris johnson sits over there and the next thing you know zelensky is backing away from these these talks it seems like boris had a word with zelensky said no peace isn't it now's not time for peace we will back you all the way and the labor party you know that we've just heard that the labor labor will guarantee what is it three billion pounds a year for as long as it

takes for as long as what takes our country it is lunacy the last thing the world needs is another forever war in ukraine and i will not have people try to degrade folk who want a peace deal and again it's one of my big hopes about trump entering the white house that actually he will demand peace he will not allow zelensky not to accept some form of peace. And that is going to be better for the people of Ukraine as well, believe me. But Calvin, just before we bring in Angela Levin, I have to ask you about this new campaign that you've launched. Because look, I'm going to show you my example. Nothing annoys me more now than in the uk when you open a bottle of water and look the lid stays on really annoyingly now i've just returned from a few weeks in america they don't have this issue

they still have normal lids do we know what's going on with this calvin is it some new environmental madness it is and I absolutely hate it. There aren't many things I would say I hate, but this is one of the things I hate. These bottle tops, these lids that are stuck to the bottle. First and foremost, people say just tear it off. You can tear it off, but then you get a piece of plastic that's janky and sticking it out,

so you can't put the lid on properly, and if you do, you're ripping your hand apart. And if you leave the lid on, it's hard to fasten the lid back on properly, so the drink leaks. And it's pointless because first and foremost it uses up more plastic than if it if they didn't have it stuck on so people that say it's good for the environment is actually counterintuitive as these things always are but the worst thing about it dan is it's an eu directive i thought that brexit meant brexit i thought that we were free of all that but apparently it's cost effective

for these companies that distribute across Europe to also have the same policies in the UK. I have discovered that Buxton Water do not do it so buy British I would suggest to avoid these horrible horrible bottle lids it riles me up. I know it's only a minor issue

but it's these small things that really get to people isn't it? Well yeah and just make life more difficult and less pleasant and as you also pointed out why can't we use plastic straws anymore in america i could it really bothers me all of this because actually it's not solving the issue at all it's another example of nut zero virtue signaling which drives me completely mad. But stand by, Calvin, because I'm going to bring in now to join us the wonderful Angela Levin. And very shortly, Angela is going to be revealing another big royal exclusive. But first, I wanted to have a discussion with you both about what is going on in Britain's

prisons. And it is particularly good to talk to you about this, Angela, because of course you were a voluntary prison inspector at Wormwood Scrubs, one of Britain's roughest prisons for years and years and years. And you actually wrote the book, Wormwood Scrubs, The Inside Story, which the Ministry of Justice at the time threatened to sue you over. So you have a lot of experience about the dire straits that Britain's prisons are in. What do you make of the fact, Angela, that they're completely overcrowded and now a lot of these violent criminals under Labour are going to be on the streets far earlier than judges ever intended them to be? Well, hello. I was actually working at the prison for 10 years. I'm a bit of a workaholic. And

whenever I wasn't writing for the Mail, I would be there. Amazing they took me on because they checked out that I was a journalist. And they said, how can we trust you? We don't like journalists. That's my interview. And I said, well, that's up to you. You've got to decide whether you want me or not. And they decided to take me. And I would never have written a book unless the life of the prisoner got so appalling and the ministry just didn't agree with that that I decided to write a book and they threatened to take me to prison myself and all that but they didn't I went ahead with it and they never said anything they were just trying to scare me um but um what was terrible was that in 2012 the government decided to absolutely cut the amount they were spending on prisons

and that involved in cutting the prisoners food stopping them going to any lessons. They all needed to, well, a lot of them needed to learn how to read. And they couldn't sort of make phone calls or anything like that because they cut the staff enormously. And these wonderful people who were the staff who'd worked there, some of them nearly 30 years, became like fathers to the prisoners. And this was fascinating because most of them who created the biggest noise and were very difficult had never had a father to look after them. And these guys tried to do something instead, and it was working very well. But because they had a decent amount of money they were they left they they were sent away sacked and they had very very young people who had a 10-week lesson and um after that they were

put in a prison and they were very very scared of the prisoners um so it was very difficult. And I sort of went off to the government and said, I thought it was shocking that they weren't getting enough food. They had an egg cup of beans from a tin, just ordinary beans, and lots of bread. I didn't think that was a decent meal for men between 20 and 35, most of them. And they said to me, oh no, they have much better than that. And we had a big row. And in the end, they came out with loads of money for them to have more food. But they did behave abominably, actually. And Calvin, I guess the issue is that it's not a popular conversation, is it, to talk about better treatment of prisoners? Because, of course, lots of people think this country is far too soft on law and order.

Although, if these folk are going to be leaving prison far earlier, as it turned out, than many of them were sentenced for, we've got a real issue, don't we? Where do you stand on the justice system, Calvin, the state of prisons, and whether we should just be building more and sending people down for longer, or if there needs to be more of a focus on improving the quality of life in those prisons in order to encourage rehabilitation i'm obviously not talking by the way about people who are in there for life but even most well in this country most murderers do end up getting out yeah it's a broad broad question but there's a lot there that i'm concerned about first and

foremost i do think prison should be punitive i I think we are deciding that you are no longer fit to operate within society, so we're removing you from society. And once someone is in prison, if they can be restored, if there can be some kind of helpful service to help them get skills and knowledge that they don't have so that when they come out, they're able to contribute to society, that's a good thing. But the first and foremost, the priority should be on punitive justice. But most people in our prisons are getting released early, earlier and earlier.

And we saw this over COVID. That was one of their solutions. They decided to release people with a third of their sentence time rather than half. And now we're looking at the Labour Party saying they're going to rapidly reduce, drastically reduce prison time because the prisons are full. Now, if the prisons are full,

first, let's look at the demographics of prisoners. Of course, we know that most prisoners are men, but if we look at prisons in this country, we can also see that a lot of our prisoners are foreign-born. Now, if you come to this country and you're not a British citizen and you commit a crime,

you should be deported. Surely that makes sense. Send them back where they came from if they're coming here and committing crimes. Now, if you come to this country and you're not a British citizen and you commit a crime, you should be deported. Surely that makes sense. Send them back where they came from if they're coming here and committing crimes. And then we'll have fewer people in our prisons. But also, if the prisons are getting full, let's build some more. But I also want to know that what happened to these super prisons that they kept ragging about? Surely they can't be full too.

The newspapers were saying there are 700 prison places left in this country. I don't believe it. i really don't believe it but if there is the answer well the labor's answer is to release prisoners of course that does make more places yes but it's a dangerous situation to be in and they're saying things like well we'll only look at you know people with with sentences of less than five years so it won't be anyone of any serious assaults or less than four years i think anyone of less than any serious assault or violence or potential sexual abuse. But that's not true because we know that actually sometimes people who commit sexual abuse and violence and other serious crimes are given shorter sentences. We've seen this in many cases. There are many examples in this country. So it should be it should be a concern for all of them yeah indeed now look a scandal of a very different kind strictly come dancing and the bbc now i have been holding fire on this on the show because what i can't work out yet is whether this is a mainstream media beat-up or another genuine new BBC scandal along the lines of Jimmy Savile.

But certainly the media, and the tabloid media in particular, seem to believe that there is a big issue with the male professional dancers. The Sun today suggesting that there might be a third professional dancer implicated, of course, alongside Giovanni Panice and Graziano Di Prima, who are the two male celebrities who have already left the show. Now, Calvin, this is incredibly awkward for Strictly Come Dancing because it's their 20-year anniversary. And, of course, the BBC likes to present this as a family friendly show even though for years and years and

years they've actually encouraged loads of shagging behind the scenes and husbands and wives seeing their relationships broken up so let's just remember for one second this ain't a family friendly show given the number of relationships it's broken up. But where do you stand on this media witch hunt, Calvin? Because after what happened to me last year, I have a very clear view on these things. If there has been wrongdoing conducted, go to the police or go to HR and allow there to be a formal process. Because what I feel like is that Giovanni and Graziano have been declared guilty by the media without any form of evidence or any form of due process.

Yeah, you're right. If someone's broken the law, then due process should be followed. They should be innocent until proven guilty, and that should be followed up. The problem I have with this is that I'm not convinced that the BBC will follow the law or follow a due process. And you're right to point out Jimmy Savile as an example. The cover-ups at that place are disgusting. The debauchery and degeneracy around this show in particular is evident to all of us, even those of us that don't

watch the horrible show. The breaking down of families and the promotion of indecency is not appropriate for a bbc update broadcaster and so if something's going on behind the scenes that is is highly inappropriate and questionable to the point of potentially being illegal i'm not convinced the bbc is going to do anything proper about it angela levin where do you stand on this one because of course it's a tough show the rehearsals have been particularly brutal but at the same time you've got women like Zara McDermott and Amanda Abington who claim that actually they were improperly treated during the rehearsals? Well, I think it's ridiculous if grown-up women have to have chaperones when they're rehearsing something like that. I mean, if they feel they're not children, they're not teenagers,

if they feel that they're not being properly treated, they can say, I'm leaving, I'm going, I'm not doing this. You can walk out. I mean, they've got to look after themselves a lot. And the other part of that program is that it is sexy. The dancing is sexy. And there is a sort of feeling of romance. And I think that some women think that actually that romance is meant for them. What it is really is most of these guys are trying to do as much as possible that it looks very romantic so that they win and they get rich and all that sort of things. And I think that they've got to control it. I mean, they get very upset. And if somebody says something not very nice to them, they sort of

cry and want to take things to court and all that. And I think that you shouldn't go on something like that unless you feel that the person who's teaching you wants you to do well. And they can get annoyed if you don't practice it enough and if you're not really doing what's physically needed. And I think the tension there is very high. But you have to split what it is. It's because somebody wants to do very well. Maybe they have been badly behaved or

maybe they shouldn't actually fall in love with each other these things happen in all sorts of areas where you're not when you're surprised about them but i think you also have to be a woman who can stand up to yourself it's an interesting one isn't it calvin Because is it snowflake culture pervading a reality show like this? Because we never had these complaints in the early days of Strictly Come Dancing. Yes, there was lots of shagging going on, but there was never any claim of violence or bullying. At the same time, I've spoken to people who are close to Amanda Abington, for example, Calvin, who insist that the behavior was completely inappropriate. And of course, people should not be physically abused

during a show. I mean, of course, that goes without saying. But I look at what Zara McDermott said when she left Strictly Come Dancing, and she thanked Graziana and said he'd been the most amazing partner to her and that he loved working with her and he loved she loved all of his passions so is this almost another example calvin of offense archaeology getting really worried about something that happened years and years and years ago which actually was just you you didn't get on with your dance partner during a dance show big deal perhaps perhaps but i think angela makes a very good common sense argument that actually if you don't like it then

leave you don't need to be there yeah which amanda abington did in fairness and that's why i give her more credit because she is the only one that quit midway through the series which makes me think that maybe her complaint has some more merit yeah i do worry because of course we need to we need we do need to listen when people say they are being abused or something dodgy is going on at the same time we can't we can't assume that someone else is guilty so there has to be the bbc needs a transparency process they need to have some kind of system where these things are reported. But come on, we know there's no transparency at the BBC, Calvin. Scandal after scandal.

Jimmy Savile, Martin Bashir's interview with Princess Diana, Hugh Edwards, you know, the list goes on. The BBC doesn't do transparency. They do cover-ups. I guess the big question is, it's been 20 years. Is this just the time to axe this show now? It's past its prime. Is this just the time to axe this show now? It's past its prime. The viewership is tumbling.

It's broken up enough marriages. What do you both think? Do we think Strictly Come Dancing after two decades needs to shimmy off to the left? I used to love watching it because it was fun and nice, and especially to see how people improved each um installment but on the other hand now they don't get very famous people i don't know who they are so i'm not interested in the same way people have never heard of most of the time

and i think that it's probably enough um i think you should finish it without it getting too much of a fight. And I think there is going to be a lot of mess and not understanding what's going on or not saying that, sorry, that it should have happened. I think they should start again with some other sort of dancing thing and leave this behind now because it's not very tasteful last dance you've highlighted a bigger problem here and that the bbc is its own watchdog they are their own off and they are biased and corrupt and i think actually forget strictly it's time for the bbc to end it it's time for the bbc to defund itself well you know that's where i'm at and calvin

robinson that is a great note to say thank you very much and we will speak next week but angela levin you stand by because it's now time for our royal masterminds and Angela Levin Prince Harry's biographer returns Angela you have yet another big royal exclusive which I've been desperate to hear about King Charles doesn't want Prince Harry and Meghan with him in Balmoral this year. No invite to Scotland. Tell me what's going on. Well, they haven't invited them, but it's not, I'm afraid, as grand as you'd like because they didn't invite them the last couple of years,

but they have said, come if you want to sort of thing, not we really, really need you. But what the difference is, is that Harry and Meghan are saying they want to get friendly with the royal family again. They need them. They want to make everything nice. And they were obviously including going on holiday to Scotland. But the reality is, if they wanted to go, I don't

think Prince Charles would stop them coming when Catherine and William had gone home, something like that. But I don't think they will come because Meghan's not interested in going to Scotland. And there are no photographers there to take pictures of what she's doing. So I think that's out of the question. And also, you know, we still have the king who has cancer treatment, and also with Princess, and we must make sure that they have a rest and a calm, and they don't want any arguments. And Meghan, I know, is still determined to sit down with the royal family and see what they've done wrong and why she's so unhappy and apologize. And of course, Harry will want the same thing. And they don't want to do that on holiday. It's now four years. Go and live your

own life. Be happy. Forget about all these things. But she is bearing a grudge. And so I think you need to avoid that and have a very quiet time. King Charles and Camilla love Scotland and they want to have peace and quiet, reading, talking, it doesn't matter if it rains and to just enjoy themselves. And of course, Meghan is also annoyed with the King because she feels... What? Why? He is taking over all the spotlight for her selling jam. Her scam jam. Remember, I call it the scam jam, Angela.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And this is almost unbelievable because he's been having it made since 1999 and well before Meghan was even thought about. And he sold it, all of it goes to charity, whereas Meghan wants it all for herself. And she's got it all wrong again, you know, and she wanted to have a go and try to get hold of the king and argue about it but you can't ring ring the king directly he doesn't have a

mobile phone and it goes through lots of aids and they just wouldn't have put her through had she managed to try wow that's astonishing so what she was hoping that Charles would say oh I'm not going to sell any jam anymore because you want to do it with your ludicrous new Gwyneth Paltrow style business is she really that delusional well it's not just jam isn't is it there's lots of different foods that the king has made and if she tries to get hold of one, she'll want to get through, you know, more than one, you know, a whole load. She's got a whole list of things she wants to do. But so far, we've only had 50 going to her friends or people she knows

or stars, celebrities, and one which was raspberries instead of strawberries. But it's not coming together. It's just not going anywhere somehow. Well, look, I'm absolutely delighted to hear Angela Charles just say no. Just say no. Both in terms of Balmoral and not entertaining these conversations with Megan. Ridic ridiculous conversations. I mean, as if someone battling really serious cancer should have to go and rake through all of these issues from four years ago

that she's already moaned about infinitum in media appearance after media appearance. I think it says a lot about her that she wouldn't actually say, please can I come to Balmoral? I promise you that I am not going to raise any negative issues because I know that you are undergoing chemotherapy and I just want to be there for you. But that isn't her personality. And we know that, Angela. And another reason that we know that, and I'm so sad about this one, is that it's Thomas Markle's 80th birthday tomorrow. He is Meghan's beloved father. Until she met Prince Harry, she used to praise her dad as one of the biggest influences in her life. And remember, for much of her teenage years, Doria, her mum, who she adores so much, wasn't there.

And it was Thomas who was doing all of the day-to-day raising of her. It was Thomas who was paying for her university fees. Now he is an elderly man. He is recovering from a serious stroke, which has taken away his ability to speak properly. All he wants is to see her, hear from her and to meet his two grandchildren, aren't she? And Lily Baird. But you're hearing, Angela, that she's not going to reach out on Thomas Markle's idea. I think that's a strategy. She can't give in. She wants to win. But if only she could just do it. 80th birthday, they're not going to do any harm, a parent at that age.

And he longs to see his grandchildren. He hasn't seen them. He hasn't met Harry. And I think it's really, really unkind. If she could just let go and do that. I don't know why she's got such hatred for him and won't have anything to do with him because she has, as you say, felt very much close, very close to him for years when she was a teenager. And she said that, you know, he's been wonderful to her. So none of us know what it

is. Parents aren't perfect, as we all know. We have failures and she should be forgiving. She talks a lot about that, you know, humanitarianism and all that sort of stuff. But really, that begins at home, doesn't it? It does. It does. I just think it's unbelievably cruel. So do I. And do you remember when Harry said, oh, well, Meghan doesn't have a father anymore? No, she does.

She does. Thomas Markle is about a two and a half hour drive. You just need to hop in your car and go from Montecito to Rosarito. That's it. Do it tomorrow. Do you really want the next phone call to be your dad has passed away and to live with those regrets forever do you really want to justify to archie and lily bet that you didn't allow them to meet your own grandfather a man who's very accomplished in his own right, who won Emmy Awards. I mean, honestly, it really

upsets me because he was a good dad and the Markles are a good family. I know that sometimes they can be a little bit edgy, a little bit controversial. I love that, but I know they care about each other and they love each other. And of course, Angela, it's in direct contrast to the celebrations for Camilla, the Queen, who has turned 77 today. And my goodness, what a way to spend it. We've got some incredible pictures of her at the state opening of Parliament. Now, look, this is the last way, right, that she would want to celebrate her birthday and she's injured as well Angela. Yes she twisted her ankle yesterday or she got her foot caught somewhere but today she didn't have a bandage on so she was obviously feeling much better she just was very careful what she got into the carriage and got out of the carriage otherwise, she was fine. She's remarkable, really, because she laughs about it and says that, you know, she was in her mid 50s when she started to work, and everyone else was retiring, all her friends, and she was just getting going. And the more

she's done it, she said to me, I wrote her biography too, was that the more she's done it she said to me i wrote her biography too um was that the more she did the more she wanted to do and she's done marvelous things that people would have wouldn't often to do like a domestic violence and all that and helping children read and she's also you can see that she's absolutely wonderful with the king he really needs her and just as they were coming out of the abbey and walking he looked around because she wasn't right with him because he obviously came first with his trail and um you know she rushed it was a very fast movement of two or three steps and held his hand. And it seemed calmer. Everything was fine.

And I thought it was lovely. I mean, they are very close. They understand each other tremendously well. And she doesn't mind if she's got wrinkles. She says people have to take her for what she is, which is interesting to know. And I think she's a role model for women who are over 50 because she says, you know, you don't have to finish. You don't have to end. Not that we're all going to find a king somewhere who can afford to keep us in amazing life, but that you can change your life.

And if anyone has shown an example of that it's her indeed it is and look I've softened to Camilla in recent years but I have to be completely honest because you know I always am Angela I am one of those people who did have concerns about Camilla especially becoming queen I felt a huge amount of loyalty to Diana and I didn't like what went on with her in the marriage. However she has done a really good job and I just wanted to show you actually this little moment from yesterday because it shows how protective Charles is of Camilla. So it was absolutely bucketing down with rain on their engagement and he becomes absolutely furious because she's trying to hold the umbrella

to save herself from getting wet and there's no one there to help her put her jacket on and and look at Charles erupt in this moment a raincoat isn't it? Yes. and Angela the lip readers say that Charles was delivering shall we say a volley of tough words to his aid there his courtier What did you make of it? Yes, well, I mean, I think he's probably very tired after those two hectic days in the islands. And when you're having all this cancer treatment, it does take the energy away from you. And he didn't want her to get wet, and he didn't want her to catch a cold.

The interesting thing is that camilla wore it until she went to the welcoming um people who were welcoming them and she could see that she's actually got it still around her so she went like that with her shoulders and the coat fell on the chair and then she could sit down and it was all right she didn't want to sit there with a coat on um very funny actually very funny but um they work very well together and he needs her he needs her as you say keep some calm he does need her because he does have that temper which every now and then uh fires up in public but look brilliant analysis and exclusives as ever. And do stand by because Angela Levin and I are going to move across right now to the outspoken, uncancelled aftershow to

continue the second half of our conversation. And Angela has loads more exclusives, unmissable exclusives, including on Harry and Meghan's latest career disaster. Let me tell you about the aftershow, though. It is a very important place for me, a safe space, if you like, that is not patrolled by big tech, because on big tech, as you know, censorship and control runs deep. So we have www.outspokenlive. It is our membership section for just five pounds a month. That's it. Five pounds a month. You get an extra half hour of exclusive content every single weekday. I also offer Outspoken members the opportunity to come on the show. We have our roundtables where we debate the issues of the day.

So at this stage, what we do is come off YouTube. We come off Rumble. We move to our own platform, www.outspoken.live. And Angela Levin is going to answer your questions there. Do sign up. Hope to see you though back tomorrow at 5 p.m. UK time, midday Eastern and 9 a.m. Pacific. Do remember if you are watching on YouTube and Rumble to subscribe. Hit subscribe right now. Turn on the notifications because you'll get alerted to all of our new content. I'll see you on the after show, but most importantly, I promise to keep fighting for you. We'll be right back. so and we're back with the brilliant angela levin the biographer of both Prince Harry and Queen Camilla. And Angela, I want to talk to you about the last week or the last 10 days for Harry and Meghan, because this feels pretty disastrous. I mean, they were actually heckled leaving the Pat Tillman award receipt at the ESPYs.

So have a look at this and then I'll get you to react off the back. Now, Angela, someone is actually shouting in the audience there, go back to Britain. And all of the choreography around the awards were odd. Venus Williams seemed to be shooting her the evil eye. What did you make of what was going on and how they could have messed this up so badly? Well, I think it was um very foolish of them because in america um which they should know by now um the pat timmons was a

real hero uh the company the the all the people uh felt very very strongly that he was a wonderful man and he was a hero. He was a brilliant footballer. And then he left that and fought after 9-11 and unfortunately died in 2004. furious that she wasn't asked who could get the present that came with the thanking him for being such an amazing man. And she didn't want Harry to have it because she said he wasn't right, he'd been awful to his family, and he couldn't represent his son. And although he'd worked for Invictus Games, he hadn't done the whole thing, and he just didn't deserve it. But they continued. And it was very, very uncomfortable all the time. I mean, Megan hung on to him, you know, hold his hand and his arm so he could barely move. And when he went up to get the award she clung to his hand and he was walking

and she was hanging onto it and in the end he obviously pushed it away and walked up now what was that about was that because she wanted to go up um and hold the award as well i mean she likes awards nothing to do with that but you don't take other people's which you don't deserve. And she shouldn't be always in the photograph. It's just it's just shocking. But apparently Harry was in a terrible state about it. Backstage, he was absolutely distraught about what he should do, what he shouldn't do. And the piece that he read was very Megan-like, actually. I mean, I went to loads and loads with him where he made speeches,

and they were very open and friendly, but this was sort of loads of boring words that you didn't know. Yeah, he hadn't written that. He hadn't written that he hadn't written that absolutely not and I thought Angela what was really interesting is that he looked terrified when he was walking up so clearly what Megan had hoped is that Harry was going to take her arm and say come up with me come up with me but he didn. He didn't actually want her up there on the stage. And the reason he was terrified, and I think he probably knows that if Meghan was on stage,

there was more chance of this happening, is he was terrified of being booed. Because he was heckled on the way out. And, I mean, in the end, people were respectful during the speech, but I don't think he got a particularly loud positive reaction but it's very rude because as soon as that particular event had happened they were leaving i think if you go to one of these organizations which is to thank people for doing wonderful things you don't walk out in the middle. That's incredibly rude, isn't it? You just wait. Even if it's boring for you, you don't sort of walk out.

It's very bad manners. And they rushed out just after Harry had said his speech. And I think that it was just a disaster. They need to know now where they stand, what they do, that they can't take other people's success and pretend it's their own. They just can't do that. They need to build their own life, but they don't seem able to. They're hanging on to their royal details and actually not living their own lives, which seems very strange, very strange. If they're together and they're even the slightest bit happy, let them do what they want, not try and spoil things for other people. When he talked about Pat's mother, obviously,

Harry would think of his own mother, but then he should know. He said, I respect you, I understand you, but then he did nothing. Well, what does that mean? You know, if he understood the relationship between a mother and a son, which is quite understandable, then you don't actually then make it very unpleasant for her. You make it as easy as you can you you don't take it away from her make her even more unhappy that you've uh got the award exactly mary tillman had said she didn't want you to accept this award. If you had any respect for that woman, you would not have accepted

it. You would have said, I've heard what she's said. She is Pat Tillman's mother. I'm going to respect her. He did not do that. Instead, what he tried to do was curry sympathy by talking about her during the speech, which I just thought was completely grim. and it shows how tone deaf he is to anyone else's feelings he only seems to care about his own feelings and we've seen that time and again haven't we with his own family too yes but this is extraordinary because when I was with him for 15 months he understood everybody's feelings he was brilliant with people who had been injured, and he was marvellous with them, and he could get them around. And several of them, after he walked to speak to someone else,

would say to me, he's given me the feeling that I should live. Nobody else has been able to. I've lived in darkened rooms for years now, but he's actually told me there is a life and he's helped me feel like that he's been talking to him for only five minutes so he has got that feeling it's his mother's way of being kind and nice and helpful to other people but I think with Megan he just is a very very different person and that he becomes determined and unkind. Exactly and what's so interesting at the moment Angela is that this has now been widely considered Harry and Meghan's flop error it's like everything

they touch turns to the opposite of gold and I just wonder how you think they're going to turn this around because the Nigerian tour was a disaster. This has now been a disaster. I mean, is there a way for them to claim back the narrative? Well, I think it's totally difficult, isn't it? I think they have to sit down and talk it through and not keep on going on and on and on about the things they don't like of what has happened

and trying to win. I think that's a problem. I think they should be very quiet and be together and not try and grab everything that isn't theirs. It's terrible. The other thing that I think people don't like is the fact that nobody sees their children. It's very difficult to understand this allegedly happy couple who just hide their children. It's very difficult for the children because they don't have a family

on their mother's side apart from their grandmother and they don't see anybody on their father's side and I think that's very hard for children not to know that they're a big family and they have lots of people who love them I find that very peculiar and I think they should spend a lot of time with their children, take them out, take them around and actually be ordinary people because they're no longer royals and they could have a lovely life if they looked after their manners. Angela, and there's a question on a similar theme there from Jane Knight, who says, I really feel for Charles not seeing Archie and Lilibet except over video. Are they being held as a form of ransom or blackmail, do you think? If so, leverage for what? Well, that's very interesting.

I mean, I think the blackmail might be a very exaggerated word, but I also feel they have said, you know, unless they get this 24-7 police protection, they will not bring their children over. So that is... And they're not going to get that. They're not going to get that. They're not going to get that. And I think that's the wrong way to behave. They have occasionally seen them via Zoom, but little children like that, two and four, they're not going to be interested in conversations. It's just like two or three words. And I think, you know, Charles, the king, would love to see them actually where he could play with them and and take them around the gardens and live in the country but um i think they they're holding that back that's my impression um because they won't do that unless they get exactly what they want from the royals

yeah these two children archie and lily bet are being denied so much and I wouldn't be surprised you know being a bit of a clairvoyant here if in the future it's either Archie or Lilibet who have the same reaction to Megan as she's having to her current father Thomas Markle because it's quite possible Angela they'll be saying why did you deny us this relationship with our grandfather who happens to be king with our grandfather on our maternal side who was an Emmy winner you can't get those moments and those relationships back let alone by the way they're cousins uh because that relationship is really important too and they have no relationship with George and Charlotte and Louis who were so young when they met yes I think it's a huge shame but another thing that I

think Lilibet will be very cross about you know Megan is a feminist she says and very strong about that that there's only an Archie foundation. There is a foundation for Lilibet. Now, that's not fair, is it? And I think if they don't do one and she grows up, why has she been missed out? I think you've got to be very careful with children. You can't just give one something and not the other.

It's really not fair. And although that might sound silly, I think that if they're so proud of Archie Federation they should do something that's for her as well yeah well you know there's so many and it's mother especially and there's so many questions around the children and why they don't want them to be seen in public. And it's all very odd, isn't it? Yes, very odd, very odd and unnecessary, actually. I mean, if you want people to really like you and get to know you as a couple,

you should be seen as a family as well. It makes sort of sense. It makes you think, what are they hiding and why are they hiding it? It can't be just for protection I don't believe in that although Harry is obsessed with making sure that they're safe but then lots of families do that and I think he should be he can still be careful but let people see who they are especially when it's birthdays well look from career perspective, I think they are in a dire place. Things have gone from bad to worse.

It's really hard to see these two new Netflix series turning things around. In fact, I think probably they'll be a disaster. I mean, no one is interested in this polo series with Harry. has proven with archetypes that actually the more that she lets us in to these conversations with her uber-privileged Hollywood friends, the more that we realise how out of touch this woman is with real life. Yeah, I think she is out of touch because she sees everything from her own view and that it's all about how people are reacting to her and how they're behaving. And I think she actually doesn't really trust herself

and she feels very neurotic about things and that makes her see the darkness and that people are trying to attack her. They're not. It's just the fact that she says and does things that a lot of people don't like and they're fed up with them now of course i guess in terms of popular royals no one is more popular at the moment than Catherine, the Princess of Wales, who returned remarkably to the spotlight again, unexpectedly too, but she clearly wanted to be at the men's final of Wimbledon. She went with her sister Pippa and her daughter Charlotte,

who was clearly just in awe of her mum looking so well and being out in public. There was a beautiful moment when she received a standing ovation from the Wimbledon crowd and I had friends who were in the audience family members who were in the audience who said it was just completely electric and all eyes were on Catherine. She is looking great but but you are concerned about how thin she is given the treatment she's going through yes i think she's very very slim and um also i imagine that um that would be enough for her to do for a long time i got very anxious that the match wouldn't go on for very long because i thought well okay she can sit for a couple of hours,

but much longer, I hope she will be OK. And when she stood up to give the award, I just felt again, you know, I hope it's not too heavy. So it came across to me that she's still it's still quite difficult for her. And she she will now not do anything for quite a while. I think the people who said, oh, it's wonderful that she's back working again, but I don't think she is back working again at all. I think it's going to be a much longer-lasting event. And it is a shame.

But I think to have Charlotte there and her sister would be very helpful for her, that she would feel safe and enjoy it very much. But if you remember that if you've seen her before, when she comes down when it's the finals, she quickly comes and sits down to make no fuss, no fuss at all. But this time she obviously thought, my goodness, I will stand up and wave. And it was very moving. It was lovely. Thousands of people cheering her.

And I think it's very nice because it shows that she's wanted and she's admired and she's she's lovely. And she just needs to get well well especially given the amount of rubbish that she was put through from the online trolls so much was driven as we spoke about at the time by the dastardly awful Sussex squad who were perpetuating these ridiculous rumors about her and I think it's beautiful that she was able to be in a space like that where she could feel the true warmth and the true love, especially given it's at Wimbledon, a place that is home to such happy memories for her.

I mean, it's certainly probably her favourite duty as a royal, given that she's such a tennis fan and her mum and dad were brought up as such tennis fans. And I think what's good, Angela, is the conspiracy theories have to stop now. And, you know, I actually hate using the term conspiracy theory because so often conspiracy theories turn out to be true. And we've seen that over the past few years, but not when it comes to Catherine. They weren't conspiracy theories. Actually, they were just malicious lies, weren't they? And so now that we've seen her a couple of times, it's not such a big deal. I want her to take all the time she needs.

But as long as she pops up every couple of months to show us she's doing well, that's enough, you know? Yes. I think it's very important, as the doctors have said, that she needs peace and quiet. That's why she asked the press not to make too much of a fuss about her, that that's what she needs. And I think that's what will help her if she goes to Scotland and there with the fresh air and the lovely scenery, I mean, that will help.

But she does need it. I mean, it's very, very tiring when you have all these cancer treatment, and she does need to be quiet and rest and save her energy when the children come home from school. I think that's what she's doing, which makes sense. They're out during the day and she can rest and then be with them. But when you see little, her daughter looking up at her, absolutely in adoration, you realise that here is a wonderful mother as well as a wonderful princess. It's just absolutely beautiful.

Look, Angela, time for a couple more questions before we go to you. And another big royal piece of news this week was of course the announcement that king charles will be going on this tour a big trip too and so helena driscoll is a little bit concerned about this and she says i'd love an explanation because there's been a mess of contradictory things published about the king's upcoming Aussie trip. One, is it wise for him to go, given his health? Two, what about New Zealand? And three, the King wrote to Donald Trump. That was Donald Trump was mad about Queen Elizabeth II. Mad as in he adored Queen Elizabeth II. So let's save the Donald Trump one and we'll come to that separately.

But do you think it's wise for him to go on this trip, Angela, given how unwell he is? Well, I think it had to be fixed now because of all the things that are happening. Summer holiday things don't happen and they need to get organised where they're staying, what they're going to do and the places they're staying what they're going to do and the places they're visiting now if the doctor says to him a bit nearer i'm sorry i thought you'd

be okay but um you haven't got quite the right line to actually go i think they'll just cancel it i think that's what will happen we don't have to worry too much but i think that's what will happen. We don't have to worry too much. But I think that this should be just underlined now. But if you work it out, they'll only be there about a week, because they've taken in the travel. And it's going to be just 10 days, I think, all together with with the journeys and they're only going to do two or three things a day where as before I know Charles fits absolutely as much as he can in and he will do about 10 12 things is it's absolutely exhausting and his aides have said to me they come back absolutely wiped out they have to have a couple of days off and he goes straight into the next engagement that he's got so he did have loads of energy but he has to wait till that comes back and I think with New Zealand it's another four hours flight and I think it's best if he just does the one thing and New Zealand is very fond of us and he can go there another time but I think

he very very much wanted to be one of the commonwealth countries he's missed out on that and he wants to show that he's still there for them and he's very keen on them and so I think this is the way they've worked it out and i hope that he will be well if he has a good rest and the holiday up in scotland so that's maybe another reason for quiet and peace um and then he gets ready to go but this this last week he's been incredibly busy he's done so much and so you think that it actually he has got some energy, even though he's having the treatment every week. He is quite strong. And if they take it carefully, and if he listens to Camilla, and the doctors who will be in close contact, and I'm sure some of

them will fly over there as well with him to look after him that things will work out well. Yeah indeed I mean look obviously from my perspective being a New Zealand Brit having joint citizenship it's sad that he couldn't make the trip to New Zealand but I think something had to give and as you quite correctly point out there's much more love at the moment for the royal family in New Zealand. In Australia where they have this left-wing government led by Anthony Albanese actually there's been quite a push for the republican movement and Anthony Albanese is a republican so I would say from a political perspective it was much more important for him

to get to Australia to try and save the monarchy there rather than go to New Zealand. And look, just finally, a question from Jane Angela, who's actually talking a little bit about your job. And she says, in the world of royal correspondence, where I assume paths cross, is there rivalry or camaraderie, or is it just a random group covering the same broad topic? And I'm fascinated by your answer to this. Well, I'm not somebody who wants to go and have a fight with someone else who's talking. I love to give you my views on everything, and I love to be at places, and I love to hear you my views on everything and I love to be at places and I love to hear what people tell me and can keep secret. But I'm not somebody who wants to grab things from other people. But I think nobody talks like I do, just like I don't talk like anybody else does.

And I just get on with my job. I think I'm very lucky and a lot of it is a great honour to do but I'm not sort of greedy or sly or anything like that so far absolutely so far you're absolutely not and obviously there's a lot of camaraderie between us two even if other people may not like us uh but I'm sure everyone loves you angela but you know me i i i i shook things up and that world of royal reporters because they're quite a closed off bunch that's how i view it anyway well then when you were at the sun yeah well you see i've always been independent i just get on with it. And I think that makes a difference.

It's up to me. And I approach people and talk to them. I just get on with it. Well, independent is the way to be. It is the way to be now because it means we report the truth. What I didn't like, you see, Angela, is how the royal rota would often work together and sometimes become a PR

for the royal family. I mean, we're royalists, but we have to cover them honestly and we have to tell the truth. And I think sometimes those relationships become a little bit blurred within the journalists who are covering the royal family every single day and are on the royal rota. But it's an interesting one,'t it it's a certainly it's an interesting world to cover but Angela Levin thank you so much scoop after scoop after scoop today my goodness I'm going to have to take a lie down

after that and you're back with us on Tuesday next week next Tuesday yes amazing thank you very much thank you Angela best in the business our royal mastermind who is of course the biographer of Prince Harry and Queen Camilla. Thank you so much for your brilliant company on the Outspoken Uncancelled After Show today.

I'm back tomorrow at 5pm. We'll see you then. Oh, by the way, I should say, if you want to be part of our Unancelled after show round table next week, then email me dan at outspoken.live. That's dan at outspoken.live. And we would love to have you. We did our first one on Monday and it was such good fun. Thank you. Remember, I keep fighting for you.