Dan Wootton Outspoken - DOUGLAS MURRAY & NIGEL FARAGE WARN WOKE "POISONING" BRITS AS STARMER & REEVES HUMILIATED

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

A gutless Prime Minister refuses to face the farmers and a lying Chancellor is exposed by the state broadcaster for fiddling expenses and lying on her CV. In his Digest, Dan asks: Is it any wonder young Brits despair about the state of our country? Nigel Farage and Douglas Murray certainly think so. Then the Superstar Panel weighs in: broadcaster and political strategist Charlie Downes and, making her Outspoken debut, Brogan Garrit-Smith of the brilliant Getting There podcast. PLUS: A worrying update on Tommy Robinson in solitary, as two visitors report his mental and physical health is in serious decline as Reform’s Rupert Lowe speaks out. AND: Katie Hopkins is unleashed in her most dramatic interview ever. THEN IN THE UNCANCELLED AFTERSHOW: Lady Colin Campbell reveals what’s REALLY going on with Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, as she flees the Invictus Games to skip Valentine’s Day with her husband. Sign up to watch at www.outspoken.live. ---------- Today’s Sponsors: GROUND.NEWS - Go to https://ground.news/outspoken to see through media bias and stay fully informed. Subscribe through my link for 40% off unlimited access this month. INCOGNI - Take back your personal data with Incogni! Use code OUTSPOKEN at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: http://incogni.com/outspoken SURFSHARK - Go to https://surfshark.com/outspoken for an extra four months of Surfshark at an unbeatable price VERSO - https://buy.ver.so/outspoken - Use code OUTSPOKEN to save 15% on your first order. MANSCAPED - https://manscaped.com – get 20% off + free shipping with the code Outspoken. ---------- Dan Wootton Outspoken is fan funded through monthly and one-time donations: https://www.outspoken.live ---------- Join Dan's Substack community: https://www.danwoottonoutspoken.com ---------- Find the full audio show wherever you get your podcasts: Apple — https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast... Spotify — https://open.spotify.com/show/19Ltone... ---------- Follow Dan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@outspokendan?... Follow Dan on Twitter: https://x.com/danwootton Follow Dan on Facebook:   / danwootton   Follow Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danwootton/... #DanWootton #DanWoottonOutspoken #news #outspoken Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm Dan Wood and this is Outspoken Live, episode number 162. So Germans are no longer safe on their own streets after this appalling terror attack in Munich. You won't be surprised to learn an Afghan illegal who had posted Islamist rants online plunged his car into innocence, including children. Yet the sensible Germans who will vote for the AFD next week are far right, according to the MSN. I will just say that Angela Merkel has blood on her hands again. And this is what we are laying the groundwork for here in the UK after our mass immigration explosion. As Eva Wlagenbroek posted on X, we're always warning that civil war is coming. But with these migrant or native attacks happening on a daily basis in Europe, aren't we already there? And remember, it was Elon Musk who predicted civil war would come to the UK. Meanwhile, here today, we have a gutless prime minister

refusing to face the farmers and a lying chancellor exposed by the state broadcaster for fiddling expenses and lying on her CV. So in my digest next, I ask, is it any wonder that young Brits are just despairing about the state of our country? Well, Nigel Farage and Douglas Murray certainly think so. You've been told all your life that your country is rotten. Absolutely everything about it is terrible. No redeeming features at all. Yeah.

That it's all racist, based in slavery and colonialism and so on why on earth would you fight for it then my superstar panel weighs in today i'm joined by the broadcaster and political strategist charlie downs and making her outspoken debut brogan garrett smith of the brilliant getting there podcast also coming up on the show today, a worrying update on Tommy Robinson in solitary as two visitors report his mental and physical health is in serious decline as reforms Rupert Lowe speaks out. And Katie Hopkins is unleashed in her most dramatic interview ever. But let it be known, the Muslim mayor of London will never be a sir in the eyes of ordinary British people.

Never, never, never, never. He has no right to be the mayor of London and is not regarded as such. My message to anybody internationally watching this is that he does not speak for the British people nor will he ever speak for the British people now that was a brilliant interview with Brogan filmed in the heart of London's shortage you know we spoke earlier in the week about all of the protests there so broman's going to reveal all and we hear much more from katie later in the show you're not going to want to miss that

then in the uncancelled after show which is over on substack lady colin campbell is going to be here to reveal what's really going on with prince harry and megan markle as she flees the invictus games to skip valentine's day with her, Lady C has lots of royal exclusives to reveal. So just sign up www.outspoken.live. Then, of course, at the end of the show, we will reveal today's Greatest Britain and Union jackass. The last of the week before we do our big poll, which will go live in my community immediately after the show. But the nominees today, which you can vote for, by the way, in our live chat, are the Labour MP Stella Creasy, nominated by It's Only Me 44 for saying the UK shouldn't ban illegal migrants because of Paddington beer.

Yvette Cooper, nominated by Big Mama Booth for the lack of inquiries. Of course, we had Katie Amess on the show yesterday talking about her dad, Sir David Amess, and the lack of an inquiry there, but also in regards to the Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, loads of other things, lots of pressure on Cooper. And Rachel Thieves, nominated by Just Margaret One, who says, I see she's now officially in the relegation zone. Although Starmer, for some reason, standing by is a lying chancellor at the moment. So get your votes in. You can do so within our live chat. Let me know why as well. And I love getting your comments during the show. We'll read out some of them at the end and reveal the results. But now, let's go.

What do we really have to be proud of in the UK at the moment? Sadly, very little. Just look at our leaders today. Slippery Stammer, the most gutless man in Britain, refusing to speak to the farmers whose lives and livelihoods he is trying to destroy. It must be really incredible to be part of building, I mean actually here, not just building livelihoods he is trying to us. Just talk to us. But he refused. Off he went in his blacked out vehicle, no doubt on the way to a private helicopter or a private jet. Didn't that remind you of those scenes after the South

Port massacre? Meanwhile, after literally months of warning, the British Bashing Corporation have caught up to the fact we have a treacherous financially illiterate liar in charge of our finances in Rachel from accounts. Now, I read their investigation today. It actually included facts reported here on Outspoken from Kev Gillett about her being an expenses cheat months ago. But I think Culver McKenzie summed up the situation well by posting on X. So Rachel from accounts has turned into Rachel the expense fiddler. Even worse, she has Starmer's full faith in her. Who would want that? And Reforms Rupert Lowe added Reeves must resign. Even the BBC is now reporting her dishonesty. An arrogant and incompetent woman who is a danger to the British economy.

But the Westminster elite and the political class, they'll shrug this one off too. She is one of their women. So is there any surprise with these uninspiring clowns leading us that our youth, our future, have lost all faith in our United Kingdom? with bombshell new polling revealing a dramatic drop in young people who can even say they're patriotic, let alone prepared to fight for their country. Listen to how Douglas Murray put it. Only 11% of young people be willing to fight for their country. I would say it's pretty obvious. If you've been told all your life

that your country is rotten, absolutely everything about it is terrible, no redeeming features at all, that it's all racist, based in slavery and colonialism and so on, why on earth would you fight for it? Why would you risk laying down your life for a country that's rotten. And so this stuff actually has very, very significant effects. But Nigel Farage believes there is a solution close to home, both him and Reform UK. So only 41% of 18 to 27 yearyear-olds so are proud to be British. That's down from 80% in 2004. Why? What's going on? Look, I get it.

If you're young in this country, you've been given a rotten deal. Lockdowns. It's really tough to buy a house. The cost of living is impossible. I know it's broken Britain, but I think there's something deeper here. I think the education system at school and particularly at university is willfully poisoning the minds of all of our young people about who we are as a country, our history, what we stand for. I think the whole thing is an absolute disgrace. And I promise you, I promise you, even when reform win the next election, we're going to teach young people that this actually has been a very great country and it will be great again.

And Farage was actually backed up overnight by his internal rival for the party's leadership, Rupert Lowe. The tragedy is that a very small percentage of the population actually elected and gave the elect gave the labor party a huge majority but they could see some of that some was that was the fact that some people didn't vote harry yeah and a lot of the gen zeds and a lot of the younger people didn't vote they're the people who are now hopefully signed well they are signing up for reform in big numbers and credit to nigel you know a lot of his tick tock stuff a lot of stuff you know in the jungle you know i i mental images we can all uh we can all try a lot of stuff, you know, in the jungle. Yes. Mental images, we can all try and forget them. I think, you know, it's made him, if you like,

more contemporary than a lot of people in Parliament. I suppose. But then the madness keeps ensuing. Like, have you heard about this? The Nigerian woman who tried and failed eight times to secure asylum in Britain and has now been granted that right to stay after joining a terrorist organization simply to boost her claim. sick. And when I see the terror on the streets of Germany again today, I fear that's where we will be in four years, if not sooner. So you see what's happening in Germany with the AFD, and not surprisingly, the political climate in the UK is heading in one direction. Reform UK, now so popular that they are setting up a specialist defections unit to deal with the volume of Labour and Tory politicians wanting to join the movement.

The chairman, Zia Youssef, explained it like this. Reform is experiencing a surge in those attempting to defect to our party. Some are cynical careerists who just want to save their bacon. But some are genuinely decent elected officials who feel their party has betrayed their values. And now we have a dedicated team to deal with this demand and ensure only the latter make it through. Lifeboats are limited. And there'll be no lifeboat, for example, for former Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who Youssef earlier this week claimed should be jailed for COVID crimes. So this revolution will potentially see a whole load of extraordinary citizens outside of Parliament become decision makers. So reform are likely, I am told, to select Ant Middleton,

really good guy, former SAS man, big life experience, to run for the party against Sadiq Khan and the London Merrilty. And now maybe even Mr Bosch himself, Tom Skinner, will become an MP after going public with reform in Parliament yesterday. So look at the post. Rupert Lowe wrote, superb to welcome some proper Essex lads to Westminster to talk politics and the importance of the country's small businesses. Tom Skinner is a real example for youngsters, hardworking, decent and a right laugh. Hopefully he's here alongside me in 2029. Bosh.

And to be honest, this is the sort of young bloke I would want to see in Parliament. Yesterday afternoon, I had the privilege to go to the Houses of Commons, to Parliament in London, went up there, and yeah, it was a really different experience for me to go and talk about how you can help new businesses and small businesses and keep the high street going. We had a good chat. I've got my insight into politics, and today we're back on the market. We're back grafting.

The vans are out today. It's gonna be a busy day. I just wanna say one thing. Whatever you are doing, always do your best. That's all you can do, keep on moving forward, keep on giving it your all, and believe in yourself, because I promise you now, yeah, you are so much stronger than you can ever imagine, if you're feeling like you're getting pulled back, you're feeling disheartened, just don't give up, just keep moving, and keep doing you, and you will get there, I promise you that. So have a great day.

Enjoy the Thursday. I'm going to smash this down, mate. Yes, Tom Skinner. That is what we need, right? Inspiring, positive, very connected, and all about hard work and being self-made and not being embarrassed about success. The Gen Z broadcaster and political strategist Charlie Downs described that as an extremely powerful crossover. And he joins me now on the superstar panel alongside Brogan Garrett-Smith,

host of the brilliant Getting There podcast. And Charlie has actually been writing on this issue for the Daily Mail this week in a column headlined, Britain's in Decline, Democracy Has Lost Its Way. Yes, many would squeal, but it's no wonder so many of my generation believe it's time for a dictator. So, Charlie Downs, that was described as a provocative view. But actually, it is no surprise, is it, when we look at the state of our leadership and the state of trust in politics, I think, becoming smashed after the uni party let us down time and again. Yeah, well, it's interesting over the last couple of weeks, all this data that's come out about Gen Z, my peers, I'm a 23 years old child of the 21st century. And to me, it's really no surprise because, you know, I, well, I'm of that age group and I echo a lot of the sentiments that have been reflected in this data. To address the democracy point,

I think the crucial thing to understand is that this is an expression of exasperation. This is an expression of a generation of people who've grown up essentially being governed by the same types of people for our entire lives. I mean, I only voted for the first time in 2019, but I remember kind of always thinking that all the politicians kind of look the same. And that's maybe a superficial view. But then when you really look into it, we elect at an election, you know, we vote in and out the public facing element of government, the actual figureheads. But really, the direction of travel, the actual sort of doctrine that is being followed, the ideology that is being brought into existence remains the same, regardless of who we vote in.

And that, I think, is, well, a significant reason for that, is we employ over half a million people in the civil service who we don't elect, whose names we don't know, whose political views I think we can kind of guess. And so, you know, there is a sense that democracy is kind of a sham. It's a theatrical production. It's performative. You know, whether it's the question time, whether it's prime minister's questions, whether it's debates on talk shows or whatever else, all of it is kind of it's for the crowd. And the actual business of government is conducted by this absolutely sprawling, incomprehensibly large state that we don't really seem to have any control over. And it even goes

beyond that, because there is a sense that all of the various institutions of power in our society, whether that's the schools or the universities or the media or the entertainment industry or the corporations or the HR departments within those corporations or the NGOs and the list goes on, they all seem to be marching to the same kind of tune, right? They all seem to agree fundamentally on what a good world looks like. And this is one where, you know, things like mass immigration are prioritised, net zero, neoliberal economics, social egalitarianism. You know, if you were to go into, you know, an Amazon HR department, for instance, and list off what some might regard as, you know, radical left-wing opinions, you know, the HR department, for instance, and list off what some might regard as radical left-wing opinions,

the HR department would agree with you. And the interesting thing is those kinds of opinions, whether it is about the LGBT stuff or the trans stuff or the BLM stuff or the climate stuff, these have been packaged and sold as radical. But actually, these are the opinions of the ruling class. And so I think a lot of young people have been hoodwinked into thinking they're fighting the power when actually they are acting

as the foot soldiers of power. And so to then bring it to this second issue of pride in Britain, it's those same people who think that they're fighting the power. They think that they're being rebellious by saying that they are not proud to be British, that they don't want to fight for Britain. They are buying into an ideology that has been delivered to them by power, by the ruling class. And it's in the interest, I think, of our current ruling class to kind of set these ties of sentimental attachment to things like nation, things like community, things like family, because that makes it easier to control people fundamentally. If people are just deracinated economic units that can be moved around like pieces on a chessboard and replaced like cogs in a machine, well, that becomes it becomes a lot easier to manage the economy, among other things.

And so I think that we are going to see in the coming years a real shift in the way that Gen Z is speaking. I actually like to think of myself as being quite an early expression of what will soon be a far more widespread phenomenon, because I am what I would describe myself as an authentic right winger. I'm not up for any of the sort of social progressive stuff, but at the same time I'm not up for capitalism either. I'm not a Thatcherite. I don't believe that the free market is the solution to everything because I think the progressive stuff but at the same time i'm not up for capitalism either i'm not a thatch right i don't believe that the free market is the solution to everything because i think the purpose of the economy is not growth as starmer and reeves like to talk about it's not profit as that's right it's like to talk about but it's actually security because what young people need is a sense of

stability a sense of security a sense of rootedness and out of that will come a sense of identity because we are you know generation identity we are the ones that have been bought, you know, sucked in to the kind of lefting identity politics that has been sold to us from, you know, really a very young age. And the reason for that is because those traditional identities to be found in family, nation, community, work, and all the rest of it, they've been, you know, they've been taken, a hammer has been taken to them, because they were described as being oppressive and somehow, you know, keeping people down. But actually, I think we're going to see a return to those kinds of identities, because actually that is where the substance of life, the real nourishing fabric of human existence

is to be found. Absolutely fascinating hearing about that change within your generation. Certainly, I think we could see it in the US with the election of Donald Trump and a big change happening there, just in terms as well of what's viewed as cool, you know, and actually what people sort of think and aspire to be. And I'd say people much more in America now, young people in America, much more aspire to be part of that Trump generation, rather than one of the weird woketopians with rainbow hair, pierced noses in New York. But Broken Garrett Smith, so great to have you on Outspoken, by the way. I have, of course, appeared on your brilliant Getting There podcast before. And what's so interesting to me about this is that your podcast is part of that media revolution that is happening. Long form, in-depth interviews, not controlled by the mainstream media. And you have platform people from across the political spectrum. But of course, there are people who are turned off by that young people. Yeah, so what I found, and when I started in the podcasting space

that, you know, there was in fact, an unwritten rule, there are subjects you cannot broach, there are people you can't talk to, and there are questions that you simply cannot ask and I wanted to change that because it seems like the view is all of a sudden if you speak to these people Dan you align with their views and beliefs and I wanted to go back you know to the days when we used to be able to have a conversation you know without killing each other, to agree, to disagree. And I believe that there's beauty in diversity. So for me, this platform has always been about creating a safe space and hearing from people from all walks of life and understanding where they are in their journey and getting there.

Yes, and that includes Katie Hopkins, which we're coming to. That includes Tommy Robinson, who we're coming to. What time to be alive? It's interesting. And these conversations are so important, Dan. Well, of course they are. which we're coming to that includes Tommy Robinson, who we're coming to live. It's interesting. Conversations are so important, Dan. Well, of course they are, but,

but I do find it fascinating. I mean, I was on, I was recording earlier this week, Francis Foster's podcast. And, you know, he's,

he's one half of trigonometry, the trigonometry guys. He does it with Constantine Kissen. And he said to me before we were recording, there are some people who, some of his friends, you know, he's in the comedy world, who are disgusted with him for having me on. And I just find it so astonishing because I'm like, I don't view myself as extreme in any way, but it does show you, I guess, the disconnect that there is between the world of woke and ordinary people in the UK.

Charlie, can I just ask you about the couple of big stories of the day that we kicked off with? Rachel Reeves, look, we've all known that she has been this CV cheat, this liar. It is interesting, though, when the state propaganda outfit, the British Bashing Corporation, even decide that this is a relevant story, reporting the allegations from Kev Gillett, which I first carried on the show weeks and weeks ago. But they are disturbing because it suggests that Rachel Reeves is someone who used other people's money to give herself a very plush life, to spend money on alcohol, to spend money on posh dinners just to spend money on gifts i mean this is not the person we want in charge of our money is it well i mean the first

thing to say i think is it doesn't appear that rachel reeves has done anything illegal um it would be a lot more dry if she had um but it's just one of these stories that stinks of sleaze I think you know and I think it's no secret that I think the general perception of Rachel Reeves is that she is somebody who is genuinely unintelligent somebody who would be more accustomed more suited to a role as an assistant manager in the local branch of a bank or perhaps not even that I mean if her CV is to be believed she was an economist in the Bank of England although that has since proven to be at least a kind of embellishment of the truth. But this story about her using her expenses to finance a very lavish life, I think is really interesting, because I think what it reveals is there are people in the

political discourse who make the mistake of believing our elites in Britain, and whether this is the Conservative Party or the Labour Party or whichever party happens to be in power at the moment, there is the mistake that made that these people are somehow very kind of well-cultivated ideologues, that Rachel Reeves is a socialist or a communist. I mean, she did hang a photograph of one of the founding members of the British Communist Party in the Treasury office. But that's beside the point. Rachel Reeves is an old school scammer, I think. I think that's the best way to think about her. She's not some high minded left wing ideologue. She's just somebody who has found her way into a position of power, whether that's through, you know, greasing the right palms, saying the right things, kissing the right backsides and whatever else.

So perhaps a little bit of merit, you know, let's be, let's be charitable here. And she's found herself in this position where she has access to huge amounts of capital, huge amounts of authority. She gets probably invited to very nice dinner parties. She is recognised now the world over. And I think that to somebody like her, that's very, very exciting. And, you know, just given this story, this expenses story, I mean, this is no surprise that someone like her has sort of found herself in this kind of position, because it's not like she has some grand ideological project that she's actually the case for more politicians than we would care to think about. I think we are. It's actually it's actually too optimistic to think that our leaders are these politically motivated ideologues who want to bring a certain vision of the world into existence. I think it's more accurate to think of them as basically opportunists. And the interesting thing, actually, about my article that you brought up already about democracy and Gen Z's lack of faith in democracy

is quite frankly, democracy selects for these people. And this is what's interesting is we're told democracy, to quote Churchill, is the worst system of government apart from all the others. But actually, if you look at the calibre of leader that democracy tends to select for, it's those people who are just more effective at lying because they're able to more effectively tell the electorate what they want to hear. And so somebody like Rachel Reeves, who is unscrupulous, who does come across as a little bit of a scammer,

you know, she's actually almost the, you know, she's like the perfect example of a democratically elected politician. And I'm not saying that we need to do away with democracy, to be clear. I do think that we can solve our problems through democracy because I think America and what's going on there is a prime example of that.

But I just think it's interesting how the entire ruling class of Britain now at this point is so atrophied, so low calibre. Keir Starmer, Rachel Reeves, Angela Rayner, David Lammy, right? These are the people who are leading Britain, representing Britain on the world stage. It's embarrassing, but that's what you get. Well do for now but the revolution is coming let me show you this new poll literally just released in the last hour this is the biggest lead for reform uk yet 29 percent of the vote ahead of labor with 23 conservatives with 21 so the revolution is coming. Breaking right now, growing fears for Tommy Robinson in isolation at HMP Woodhill. New visitors to the political prisoner have revealed that he has lost weight and does not look well. Now, these people are Aya Fogg and Michael Peel of the Danish Free Press Society.

They were forced to sign one of these gagging orders before visiting introduced after my visit to Tommy in December when I reported on the fact that he was convinced that Axel Rudiger Bahner was a practicing Muslim behind bars in Belmarsh. So now everyone who visits Tommy has to sign one of these gagging orders. But congratulations to these two from the Danish Free Press Society who have said, to hell with that. We are going to reveal to the world what's going on immediately after we've left. So let's look at their first reaction to the visit. Just visited Tommy Robinson and for quite a long visit, actually, almost two hours. Yeah, he is being treated well by prison staff.

They're very professional, very friendly, but Tommy Robinson is, in our view, he's not well. No, he has lost weight. I don't think he looked good. Now this is worrying because this feels like there has been a real deterioration since many of his visits and phone calls were cut off. They went into some more detail here. Watch. And he was slow in a way when he spoke, especially in the beginning, he was slow. Then he said that he started to um speaking one more like he used to he said that the last time he was suffering from the stress of solitary confinement he didn't realize how it affected him until after he came out and was released and this is probably

the same but it's it's absurd living a political prisoner in four months of solitary confinement for the crime of making a film documentary, which has now been seen by 156 million people. It's not a criminal offence, and he's in solitary confinement for nine months, and now he's been there for four months and we can see a difference. It's obvious, and we can see a difference. It's obvious. We're concerned. To emphasise authoritarianism in England at the moment under the current government,

we were both forced to sign non-disclosure agreements where we commit ourselves to not conveying to the public anything of what we have experienced today, which is completely unspecified in this contract. What it is, if you ask, what is it that we're not allowed to say, we cannot get any answer to this. I mean, it is extraordinary. It is absolutely extraordinary that this is going on in the United Kingdom, but not a surprise, given we have a government

that has literally thrown people in jail United Kingdom, but not a surprise, given we have a government that has literally thrown people in jail for posts on Facebook or tweets. But it was interesting to hear an outsider's perspective as to what this does represent about tyranny in the UK. This is how they described their view of British politics after this decision. This is what authoritarian governments do to political prisoners in East Germany and in Russia and in North Korea. But we wouldn't have expected this kind of behaviour from England, which was a democracy, I think we should say, in the past sense now. Yeah. So we were happy to meet Tommy and to talk to him.

But we are concerned about his well-being. Things are not good in England under Selma. And he can definitely not take another five months in solitary confinement. That's... Well well nobody could and uh and even though he's um he's working out and eating properly yeah i mean he's not really eating properly though because he's so terrified about his food being poisoned he needs to only eat things that are canned or common sealed bags like crisps, for example, which he can only get when he has visitors. And of course, his visitors are now severely limited. But the

mood is changing out there because Rupert Lowe, one of the most exciting politicians in the country of Reform UK, is now prepared to openly challenge the prison authorities about what they're doing, even in a mainstream media which remains steadfastly opposed to Tommy Robinson. Watch his exchange with Harry Cole for The Sun. He doesn't deserve not to be given the credit for the things that he's done. But when Elon Musk says he's in prison because he's a political prisoner for telling the truth about, telling the truth about brewing gams, that's bollocks though, isn't it? He's in prison for 10 years. I don't know what he's done and why he's in prison. I hope that while he's in prison, he's being treated exactly the same way as every other prisoner. I gather he's in solitary confinement. I don't know the ins and outs of that. I don't know whether it's right or wrong that he's in solitary confinement. But as you know, solitary confinement is a big cross to bear.

And I just hope they are treating him as they would treat all other prisoners. That's all I've said about it. And I maintain that. Charlie Downs and Brogan Garrett-Smith of the Getting There podcast with me. Brogan, you have obviously hosted Tommy Robinson on your podcast, and I know you have been investigating his conditions in prison, especially after hearing those disturbing reports. What do you know? Well, I feel that it comes as no surprise. Any of us left to our own devices let alone entrapped in an extremely small small space limited sunlight limited exposure to anything no real human connection it comes as no surprise that

he's going to be going stir crazy dan he came on my show before he showed the film knowing what would happen when he showed the film and he spoke about his much shorter time in solitary confinement. And it said that it scarred him for over a year. He said he had bouts of psychosis. And like you said earlier, he had no idea the damage that did until he came out and he adjusted. Because what we forget is that he's going through this whole mental process. And when he comes out, it's going to take time to rebuild his character

and everything else that's happened to him. And I know firsthand that they've been stopping his prison visits. And like you say, they've put gagging orders on them. So now he's gone from those hopeful moments to once or twice a week, like you say, even being allowed a bag of crisps, even being allowed the opportunity to see his family are now being taken away from him.

And it worries me for him. It worries me for the family. You know, ultimately, all he did was show a video and it wasn't a biased opinion. He showed people that were recorded unknowingly telling the truth about an incident. And now the same story was told time and time again through the individuals that he interviewed. So it's very, very unlikely that it's false. I know he even got the young schoolboy's school reports, you know, that had been submitted.

So he hasn't done anything here apart from expose the truth. And I'm not surprised that, you know, Britain feels a little bit shaked by this. Well, of course, because at the end of the day, no journalism should be censored. I don't even care if the journalism is inaccurate. It shouldn't see you go to prison. Our interview was censored.

I think people need to wake up to what's happening. You know, I had a lady not long ago on my show that spoke about the fact that in 2020, young infants were delayed in getting their early vaccines because, quite frankly, where's the last place you're going to take your child, your newborn child, during COVID when everyone's got it is to the doctors, right? So that meant that Sid's,

which is sudden infant cough debt, completely went, yeah? All she did was state a fact. I was then put in YouTube prison. We had the whole episode taken down. I think people are starting to just wake up to now what is really happening and this level of censorship that is going on you know Tommy's being used as an example to try and make people like you and I to stop him from even letting him speak or you and I speaking freely he's being made a real example of he is but what's interesting Charlie Downs is that because of politicians like Rupert Lowe, who do have the balls not to just give in, I mean, he's now given two big interviews with the mainstream media over the past week,

and he's pushed back to both the Daily Telegraph and The Sun. Do you think there is an Overton window shift going on when it comes to Tommy Robinson? Especially, by the way, given Elon Musk is now paying his legal fees. Such an interesting topic, this one. I mean, I think however the Tommy Robinson story ends, he will be remembered in history hundreds of years from now as being a kind of symbol, as being an expression of a far more widespread phenomenon in a lot of ways i think

he kind of embodies the you know the forgotten white working class in britain because whatever you think of his personal conduct and i you know have my own criticisms there um as as many people do he's no nobody's saying that he's a perfect kind of character um but whatever you think i mean the way he's being treated is actually quite, well, it's, it's almost like a microcosm of how the white working class in Britain in general have been treated. Yeah. They have been suppressed, censored, you know, kind of locked away their interests, not represented, you know, attacked by the state at every opportunity.

And that's because we live under a state that fundamentally hates the indigenous people of the British Isles. But to kind of move on to the point of mainstream politicians now engaging with Tommy Robinson I think that the right in Britain and by that I mean basically you know the kind of nexus the Conservative Party the Reform Party and so on they don't quite know what to do with Tommy Robinson and and that kind of feeds into the same thing as I was just saying in that they don't really know what to do with the white working class. Because there is a British sense that you have to be polite and proper when you're operating in politics. And a figure like Tommy Robinson is neither polite nor proper, quite frankly. And so there is this sort of feeling that

the kind of reflex, instinctual response of many people is to just reject, you know, in a kind of fearful way, any association with Tommy Robinson. And I don't think that's I don't think that's the right solution. Right. I don't think that's the right strategy. Because the correct view, in my opinion, of Tommy Robinson is, look, Tommy Robinson isn't going to be in government. Right. He's not going to be prime minister. He's not going to be running the country. I don't and I don't think I think he would make a pretty bad prime minister. But with that being said, he is an expression of a phenomenon that is not going to go anywhere, all the while the concerns of the white working class in Britain go unaddressed. And this is on things like Islam, this is on things like mass immigration, this is on things like de-industrialisation,

this is on things like the destruction of local working class communities because of the destruction of industry, the destruction of community, the destruction of social fabric. These are things that have been going on for decades at this point. I mean, I've raised the specter of Thatcher already. And I think that you can certainly trace it back to there to a certain extent, maybe before. And there have been things that have happened since, obviously, that have played a role. But the working class in Britain have been totally forgotten about. And I think that the right wing movement in Britain, the conservative movement, the patriotic movement that is in its nascent form right now,

and which has reform UK as its center of gravity, this, this concern and this group needs to be, needs to be integrated into that. And again, that's not to say that you bring Tommy Robinson in. I think actually that will be electoral suicide if reform did that because the general public are just not going to go for Tommy Robinson, unfortunately, or fortunately, however you view that. That's just the truth of the matter. But what you do need to do is you need to speak for the people that Tommy Robinson currently speaks for, because at the moment, he's the only

one doing that, and there's nobody else doing that. Yeah, and it is going to be absolutely fascinating. I mean, the first thing is, Tommy Robinson doesn't want to be a politician. He has made that abundantly clear. I just checked for sure again in December with him. And no, no, no, he doesn't. But what he does want to be is an independent journalist. And I know that the first investigation that he is working on for when he comes out of prison, I obviously won't speak about the details, but I know that he is coming for Labour. He is coming for this Labour

government. And I think given the complete, and by the way, deserved downfall of the mainstream media, there's absolutely no reason that Tommy Robinson cannot be a very significant voice in terms of the shaping of public opinion ahead of the next election. You don't have to want to be an MP or in Parliament to make a real difference to the country. I have absolutely no desire to be a politician or to be an MP. I do have a real desire to help this country return to greatness. And so for me, I do believe that Tommy Robinson will have a part to play. And I think the journalists and the mainstream media who are so quick to deride him, and we've seen it from Camilla Tomine and Harry Cole and Gordon Rainey, you know, oh, he's just terrible, isn't he? He's just terrible.

Actually, I think they will be the folk who end up on the wrong side of history there. Breaking right now, Katie Hopkins has given her most dramatic, emotional and revelatory interview yet. And trust me, Britain's mainstream media are on the ropes as a result of this. She sat down in Shoreditch, the heart of woke London, with Brogan Garrett-Smith of the Getting There podcast, and she was finally prepared to unleash, including on her former colleagues at LBC Radio, I call it now the Labour Broadcasting Company, like James O'Brien, like Sheila Fogarty, because she revealed they had previously ambushed her show. Watch. so many things to me and Fatty Fogarty wouldn't even, oh sorry Sheila, she wouldn't even change studios with me, she wouldn't even come in to change over in a professional manner. And didn't you have somebody pulling your phone lines as well? Yeah, she was paid by James O'Brien's heavyweights

allegedly, but she would just rip the phone lines out leaving me with no callers to try and throw the show I was fired from there anyway and there's much more where that came from in just a moment Charlie Downs with me and Brogan Garrett-Smith behind that incredible and fascinating interview. I feel very privileged to have watched it all. It will be released on Getting There this weekend. Brogan, first set the scene for me because this was not just a normal interview, given the fact that you decided to host it

at the heart of woke London. There were protesters outside. There were police on duty. Oh, it was a time to be alive you had people trying to shut it down right for weeks oh my god the chaos it was crazy so um we found this fantastic venue in shoreditch and we sold out over three months ago and in the lead up to the event the venue had received a couple of emails and then then in the week leading up, I can only use the words bombarded, harassed. They received dozens and dozens of emails from the woke crew urging them to shut down this interview.

They then went into neighbouring businesses to put pressure on them. went as far as finding out the people that simply took the bookings for the venue and finding out their names and taking them on LinkedIn as racists. Simply because you wanted to interview Katie Hopkins. That's it. All we wanted to do was have a safe, honest conversation. That's it. Like with

all of my guests. You've been a guest, Dan. You know how it is. A safe, honest conversation about her journey in getting there. Nothing else, nothing to do with the left lot. And they were trying to tear us down. And they went to the Hackney licensing committee. They went to the council. They contacted the Metropolitan Police. They flied against the event in Hackney and Shoreditch all along the streets. Now, most venues would have crumbled under pressure like this. And I can see now firsthand why she lost so many venues. And it's terrifying.

You know, one thing anybody doesn't want to ever be called is a racist. But what that does, it has the capability of putting people like me or the people who are taking the bookings in a box because nobody would talk to a racist. And they showed up. They were beyond aggressive. And I'm actually surprised that the police let them be as aggressive as they were. They had megaphones and they were screaming Dan into the megaphone.

They then went off at a tangent and blamed her at some point for climate change. I don't know. I think they were just running out of abuse. But they went up to my guests and they were swearing at them. And I couldn't believe what these people were trying to do to simply stop us from having a conversation. I mean, it is extraordinary. But what I love and where I think maybe things are changing is that all of those people walked past those protesters, went into the room and were excited and happy to be hearing from Katie Hopkins. And she didn't disappoint. And obviously, we've got much more of the content to preview before your full interview on Sunday. Charlie Dunst, let me bring you in on this. Can I ask specifically about those revelations that Katie made about LBC, specifically James O'Brien

and Sheila Fogarty, essentially trying to hijack her show. And we know, Charlie, that it was James O'Brien who managed to get Nigel Farage sacked from LBC. So it's almost like there was a left-wing coup at the station that used to represent the working class in this country, used to be the station of the black cab driver, and now is the station of the woke elite. No wonder its owner, Global, is losing tens of the woke elite. No wonder its owner, Global, is losing tens of millions of pounds. They deserve to, don't they? It's really interesting this. I mean, something that I said earlier on the show is the fact that the kind of regime

that we live under in Britain, it doesn't begin and end with the public facing elected element of government in the House of Commons. It's actually sprawling and extends into these kind of nominally separate institutions like the media.

Now LBC is kind of, you know, LBC is what you listen to if you want to hear what the ruling class are thinking and talking about. It's actually a very useful tool for that reason. Somebody like James O'Brien, who again presents himself as being a bit of a shock jock, as being somebody who is a little bit fight the power. I mean, you know, his book, what's it called? How They Broke Britain.

I mean, they as if as if he's not part of the ruling class, as if he's not a mouthpiece of power himself. So it's no surprise to me that, you know, these allegations that Hopkins has made against him and and some of the other staff at that particular outlet. It doesn't surprise me because these people do not tolerate dissent. They do not tolerate different opinions. They are, in the proper sense of the word, bigots. They're not interested in having a conversation. They would rather just censor and attack and smear and defame. And, you know, it's just very interesting.

And I would add to that, actually, on that same point, something very interesting that Brogan just said is these protesters outside the venue and the police being quite kind of easy with them. That's because they're on the same side. That's because the interest group that that protest that those protesters represent are, you know, are essentially the government, the state, because in what way, you know, if one of those protesters was to walk into Whitehall, if one of those protesters was to walk into, you know, a corporate HR department and complain about Katie Hopkins and say that she's a racist and say that, you know, equality, diversity, inclusion are the most important things, you know, they would find themselves among friends and the police, unfortunately, and, you know, there was a time where I would have said that I'm a great respecter of the police, but I actually think the police force in the United Kingdom has become so atrophied. They are just the foot soldiers of the regime. They are the iron fist of the power structure. They're standing there really among allies because they ultimately represent the same interest group.

Yes, and of course, the police in London, at least, are under the control, under the purview of a certain Sadiq Khan. And in the interview with Broken, Katie didn't hold back about London's mayor. We lose our ability to celebrate our identity, do you feel, from you being in the eye for so long? Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. o'ch bod yn y golygfeydd am hynny am hynny? Ie, dwi'n meddwl am ddau pethau. Dwi ddim yn siarad am unrhyw un ond fy hun, ond gadewch i'r gwybod bod y Prif Weinidog yng Nghymru ddim yn ystyr yn y gwyliau o bobl Brydeinig. Ni, ni, ni, ni. Nid oes ganddo'r hawdd i fod yn y Prif Weinidog a nid oes cael ei ystyried fel hyn. A'r neges i bawb sy'n gwylio'r hyn yn gyffredinol yw not regarded as such and my message to anybody internationally watching this is that he does

not speak for the British people nor will he ever speak for the British people. Now what was so fascinating about this interview with Brogan on getting there and Katie Hopkins is that it wasn't just Katie talking about the news, but also the huge impact that cancellation had on her life. I obviously feel a lot of empathy and sympathy for what she went through, given I had a similar cancellation in 2023. And Katie, when she was talking about her sacking from the Daily Mail, which she reveals here she's actually writing about in a tell-all book, which is going to be big, really summed up how cancellation works. It's all about pressure from external forces and mainstream media organisations and corporate giants who are just not prepared to stand up for their staff and in turn stand up for the people.

Because, of course, what Katie Hopkins was doing, what I was doing was representing the people. Watch this very fascinating exchange and we'll get reaction from Brogan and Charlie off the back. What happened? Yes, I'll do it in brief. A, I don't like talking about myself. I know that seems like I'm always talking, but I'm usually talking about something else that matters. And B, I couldn't tell anyone what was happening to me because I was universally hated.

I was a monster. I was seen as being the worst person ever. yn cael ei haeddu'n unigol. Roeddwn i'n gwybod fy mod i'n ychwanegol. Roeddwn i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i'n cael fy mod i' Ac yna, fy bost, y ffigwr duw yng Nghymru ar y Dail Mael, cymerodd e-bostau o bob lle, oherwydd bod pawb yn gwybod ble oeddwn i ac beth oeddwn i'n ei ddweud, sef bod y rhan fywyd o ddynion dynol yn rhan cyd-dynol dynol sy'n ddigon ddigon ddigon ddigon a ddigon ariannol, a phroffidiaid, cyrffion, eglwysion a chynulliadau, a'r holl sefydliadau mawr yn cymryd eu llythyr o fles. Traffig, ond mae'n y bobl mwyaf sy'n cymryd y

arian o symud ymlaen i'n ddynion i'n wlad. Ac roeddwn i'n mynd i ddweud y stori hwnnw, ac roedd fy bos yn cael e-bost, ac yn sydyn, fe dweud, beth yw'r hyn sy'n digwydd? Ac rydw i am gyhoeddi'r holl e-bostion hynny mewn llyfr, oherwydd mae'n amser i bobl gweld. Yr arweinydd, ie, mae'n dod. Dwi ddim yn cwmio nawr. Oherwydd roedd fy bost yn anfon y e-bostion hynny yn syth i mi, felly rydw i'n eu rhoi mewn llyfr i bawb gweld. Yr arweinydd arweinydd,

holl bwrdd o ddewidwyr, sygnadau o ho, y cyfan o'r cyfarwyr, sylwadau o'r holl gyfarwyr o'r eglwysion Cymru a Chwarchedd Cattol, cyfarwyr o'r llyfrau barchadau, Brendan Cox o'r Gwarchedd Gwarchedd, NGOau mawr, cyffrediniaethau mawr, Llywodraethau Llywodraeth, cyfarwyr Llywodraeth, i gyd yn gofyn i mi ddychmygu, ac fe wnes i'n cael fy nghymryd y dydd hwnnw. Yn effeithiol, fe gadawyd i mi fynd i fyny am tri mis i fy ngholli, ond fe wnes i fy nghymryd ar y dydd yr unol i mi fod wedi bod ar y sioe yn yr Adael.

Sut oedd hynny? Efallai nad yw'n cael ei chymryd o'ch swydd. Mae'n y peth arall. Mae'r ffaith y by fact that you're then a leper that people who know you don't want to know you if they see you they look as it's almost like you're a ghost because it's almost like they look straight through you they didn't catch your eye anymore my god I know exactly how that feels broken I went through something very similar and what's interesting is that later in the interview Katie said look these people they want you to swing from a tree that is actually what cancellation is about they want to finish you off. She is without doubt one of the most strong women I have ever met. And I think a lot of that is to do with the work as well, you know, her Sandhurst training and everything else.

But she spoke openly, Dan. She was picking her tree. This isn't, oh, you know, a passing thought. The weight of this attack was so heavy she was completely ostracized I mean she speaks about it being a coordinated attack like she said on those boats like they wanted to make it so she completely was obliterated and I won't ruin the rest of the interview but obviously things have gone on and they've progressed and thank god katie's still here because she has that tale to tell for people like us who didn't know the weight of these kind of attacks and i feel hopeful for her now and unfortunately there aren't people as strong

enough as katie and most of them would be silent and give in you know and that is what's happening and i felt it myself when i've tried to speak to people whose narrative simply doesn't fit the mainstream media's narrative. They will just stop it. And this is happening. It is happening. No, it is happening every day. And the thing is, she was one of the first to be cancelled. But, Charlie, what I found really interesting about that

is it's an explanation, I guess, of how it works. So the male probably don't actually want to sack Katie Hopkins or me because we were both their most read columnists, right? But when you have a major supermarket brand who is spending millions and millions of pounds a year in advertising, pressuring you, they give in. Well, it shows you, doesn't it, that people are allowed to occupy a position until they are, right? One thing I will say, perhaps offering a little bit of a dissenting view here and an alternative viewpoint, is I think there's a conversation to be had about the fact

that, to be honest with you, in my own life, I think if you were to present Katie Hopkins to most, you know, most ordinary, non, sort of not particularly politically minded people that I know, she would kind of bounce off them. I don't think, you know, I think ordinary people who I know would view her as being a kind of unpalatable figure, similar in that way, actually, to Tommy Robinson. And so in a certain way, I think it's actually in the interest of the power structure that governs us, that the opinions that Katie Hopkins has and represents are coming from somebody like her, because they, and I'm not saying I don't like her, I'm not saying that I think she's a bad person or anything. I'm just saying that from a value-free perspective, I think a lot of ordinary British people find her and her ilk quite difficult to stomach, right?

And it's actually therefore in the interest of power that radical dissident opinions are coming from someone like her or indeed someone like Tommy Robinson, because it's then very easy to paint those opinions as being the opinions of cranks and the opinions of outsiders and weirdos and, you know, unpleasant people and all that sort of thing. But what's so different about Katie though, Charlie, what's so different about Katie, right, is she was absolutely an insider. She was a mainstream figure.

I mean, she found fame on The Apprentice. She was on This Morning constantly. She had a column in The Sun. She had a column in The Daily she had a column in the daily mail and actually if you look at the things that she was writing about that got her cancelled it was no different to what any mainstream politician on the right now says yeah no i'm not denying that she was certainly a mainstream figure but what i suppose what i'm saying is you know perhaps there's a reason for that because perhaps that that presents those kinds of opinions

in a certain light whereas if it was somebody you know for instance somebody young uh somebody who is a little bit maybe more relatable um a little bit more palatable in in the kind of mainstream mind I think I think that the system would view a figure like that with a great, a far higher level of fear because I don't necessarily know whether Katie Hopkins is somebody who could truly win a majority of people over to the positions that we hold, for instance. And I think that there is an extent to which she actually puts people off. But to actually get back to the point here, right, about her cancellation, because that's what we're talking about.

I do think that is really interesting because it's obvious that there is a line an invisible line that if you cross it suddenly you're not allowed to speak anymore dan i know this is something that you've experienced personally and i i know plenty of people um personally and professionally who have undergone the same experience and it's just very interesting that you know we we have this kind of uh nominal commitment to free speech by our various institutions i mean the echr for instance which is something that is derided in the press and uh in the right-wing press certainly but held up as something sacrosanct by the you know by the power structure by the government you know the idea of leaving the echr is is is you know beyond

the pale that actually does have free speech as one of the human rights. And yet we still have this situation. Yeah, right. When they want to finish you, you are finished. I mean, in my case, River, I was cancelled from the mainstream media for laughing.

I wasn't even for saying anything. Laughing awkwardly at a joke that Lawrence Fox told. Brogan, you wanted to come in. No, I wanted to say, I think I believe she became too powerful. She had the most read column. She had an extremely

successful radio show. And Charlie, I know she plays up to this huge caricature and we spoke about it in the interview, you know. She likes leaning into the baddie role.

She knows what she's doing. She's not someone that sits on the fence. But ultimately, you go back and look at the things that she's saying. She's only expressing the opinions of most of the british people there's nothing too radical about her views and i think she plays up to the caricature and that's probably what gets the attention but for me she had too much of a voice and a platform i just want to uh show another really fascinating part of the interview broken and

this is where you discussed the whole thing of our and it's charlie something you were referring to earlier our working class folk who have strong opinions in the uk treated differently to people who have a posh accent but maybe are saying similar things and and the examples that she uses and that you use Brogan are Tommy Robinson versus Douglas Murray it's a really fascinating discussion. It's like oh my god you vile uneducated pig yet his peers that were more educated could make the o'r ffyrdd oedd yn ysgolion yn ddiddorol, ond roedd ei ffrindiau sy'n fwy addysgol yn gallu gwneud y ddewisiau cywir a chael eu llwyddo. Ac rwy'n teimlo ein bod yn gweld hynny gyda Douglas Murray, yn dda? Douglas Murray yw bwyd o'r clas, ddyn ddiddorol, sy'n ysgrifennu'r un sylwadau y mae'ch ganddo chi a Tommy Robinson. Mae Douglas yn y colwm yn y Spectator, mae Tommy Robinson yn yisyn ac yn cael ei ddweud yn ddynol ar gyfer arweinyddiaid.

Felly rwy'n meddwl, ar pa rhan mae clas yn bwnc hefyd? Ie, rydych chi'n gwybod, mae hynny'n gwestiwn yn sicr. Ac mae'n llawer o fwriadu i Tommy a'i teulu, a'i plant, a'i gynnal, oherwydd yn amlwg yn gwbl gwahanol. Ond rwy'n meddwl, yn bendant, a'r hyn sy'n wych am Douglas Murray, yn annibynnol i lawer o'r eraill, yw bod Douglas yn gwybod hynny'n gwbl. Mae'n beth gwych iawn mae Douglas yn dweud. Rwy'n gallu ddweud hyn. Ie, oherwydd fy nghasg, oherwydd fy nghyffordd, oherwydd fy addysg, rwy'n gallu ddweud hyn a nid yw Tommy. Ac mae hynny'n beth magig iawn y mae Douglas yn ei wneud oherwydd mae

ganddo cyflwyniad mawr iawn. Ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n bwysig ac un o'r pethau, nid Tommy o gwbl ond eraill, yw'r hyn rydyn ni ddim am wneud yw gwirio i mewn a chyfrif ein hunain. Felly os yw rhywun ar ein not Tommy at all, but others, is what we must never do is turn in and fight ourselves. So if someone on our side, the side that just wants everyone to be OK and as free as they can be, is criticising someone else who's in the freedom movement, loosely, you know, whatever you believe, I never think we should be turning in and criticising ourselves. I think Douglas has such a vital role

to play in the spectator with the you know the shoreditch lot probably wouldn't protest douglas i mean maybe they would um you know then you've got tommy you know street level warrior you know i have a role we all you have a role dapper what a great guy um so we all have a role to play. We mustn't criticise. platforms, but of course, I much prefer it on YouTube when you can see the visuals and you can watch the interviews with the likes of myself, Tommy Robinson, and from Monday, Katie Hopkins. Don't go anywhere, though. Katie did let loose on Philip Schofield and Holly Willoughby in quite an extraordinary fashion. We will discuss it with Charlie Downs and Brogan Garrett-Smith in just one minute. But first, sleep quality declines in people as early as 30. When you were young, your body was producing a good amount of sleep-regulating hormones. As you get older, your body's ability to produce those hormones decline, making it harder to fall asleep and stay asleep.

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then she hadn't finished there and holly willow booby the thick bitch was absolutely i mean seriously i'm jealous because she's got great or she had great tits. Right. But, you know, Holly Willoughby is as thick as this table. Seriously. Seriously. But yes. So Phil and Holly, they were still in there. Oh, my God. Why am I sat like that? And Katie did go on to explain a little bit about her role on This Morning, where, of course, she was provocateur in chief. She's saying something outrageous and then she would be the other side.

And that was the format, right? Oh, I say. Oh, that's Holly's drippy face. O, mae hynny'n hollol ddryffyn. Mae'n perffaith iddyn nhw, oherwydd maen nhw'n cael eu bod yn y ddwyloedd o'r bobl yn ffyrdd sydd yn y tu allan ac rydw i'n cael fy modd yn y twat. Ond, yr hyn rwy'n ei ddweud yw, roedden nhw'n anfon y stori. Felly, ar un enghraifft arbennig, roedd, mae pobl yn meddwl am beth maen nhw'n ei alw eu plant. Wel, nid oes sgwt. Mae hynny ddim yn topig, mae hynny. Felly, fe wnes i fynd ymlaen ac wedyn fe wnes i fynd amdano ar ei

ffordd o ran fy mwyafrwydd o wneud y rhan o'r ysgol. Fe wnes i ddweud bod rhai enwau'r plant ddim yn gallu ddod. Pan fyddaf i'r cofio rhai enwau, rwy'n gwybod yn gyflym beth fydd y mam yn edrych fel. Pan dwi'n clywed Tyler! Rwy'n gwybod y byddai'n ffat mam mewn siwrt chwarae. Ydy hynny'n mam Tyler? Nid yw hynny'n mam Tyler. Mam ffat mewn siwrt chwarae yn ffocio allan o'i fyned o'i car deithio. Ie. Caeth ei ddod o'r cyngor. Ac fe wnaethoch chi ddwe And you said that on the TV, right? I said that on the TV and she'll be shouting,

Destiny! The broadcaster and political strategist, Charlie Downs, and the woman behind that interview, Brogan Garrett-Smith of the Getting There podcast, join me now. So, Charlie, is that what you're saying is unpalatable is that too much for you yeah like i mean it's not too much for me i thought i was very funny but what i am saying is that a lot of ordinary like middle-class people i'm thinking about the people who i know in my

personal life who are not you know into politics or anything a lot of that is going to be it's going to cause some pearl clutching and it's going to cause some offense and i get that that's what she's trying to do and i and i and i kind of respect that in a certain way and i mean as i said as i was watching that i mean i was laughing because it was funny um but point that i was making because i am trying to make a kind of you know i'm trying to make a serious sort of political point here which is that when radical sort of uh you know interesting spicy dissident opinions are put into the mouth of something like Katie Hopkins, I think it turns more people off than it does bring people on. And actually, you know, if we have to bring it back to the whole point of the dire state of this country,

if the objective is to save Britain and if the objective is to bring Britain back from the brink, I mean, that's a tongue twister in and of itself. Goodness me, I'm getting myself all tied up. Then it's not actually that helpful to have people like Casey Hopkins delivering those opinions to the public. And actually, as I said already, it's kind of in the interest of the power structure for it to be delivered in an unpalatable way.

But with that being said, look, I'm not going to say that wasn't funny with the clip that you just showed. It was very amusing. I mean, Brogan Garrett-Smith,ith the thing is she is actually a stand-up comedian now and that's what's so interesting isn't it brogan because i think katie has sort of worked out that she can sometimes say unpalatable truths in a much easier manner with less risk of cancellation although once you've been cancelled like she has, they can throw anything at her.

When did we forget to be able to have a laugh as well? Do you know what I mean? I know you said, Charlie, some of your friends or peers might not find it funny. Maybe they don't have a sense of humour. I don't know. But one minute she's being called a racist and the next she's talking about, you know, white people hanging out their mobility scooter.

So, I mean, she's diverse. Well, she's not diverse, but do you know what people hanging out their mobility scooter so I mean she's she's she's diverse do you not well she's not diverse but do you know I mean they can't put her in a label in one moment and the next you can't and you have to be able to have a joke and she said that's to me privately she said that's what she believes has given her this longevity and comeback is that she can talk about things that are too taboo to other people to talk about if we put it into like a comedy act or we we make fun of it and she uses her comedy to bring home some really important points about what's going on in the uk charlie do you want to do you want to respond no i totally see that i really do and i don't disagree um i think actually just to come back to something

we were talking about earlier the sort of uh tommy robinson douglas murray distinction that's that's that is really interesting in and of itself actually because i do think if you know if you had a kind of a working class version of casey hopkins you might actually see the same thing you might see the same thing as you do you know where douglas murray is allowed to say certain things about immigration and islam and all the rest of it whereas when tommy says the same things, he is, you know, imprisoned by the state. I think you'd probably see the same thing because Katie Hopkins does have that, you know, granted she has been cancelled. But at least for a time, she was part of the establishment. She was part of the media establishment. And so I think that background does give her a certain amount of insulation and it gives her a certain amount of license to say things

which actually you know i think it's fair enough that she's using that to push the boundary and to push the overton window um so yeah i mean credit to her where it's due yeah and trust me when you have been cancelled right and you know that the people who were so gutless or didn't stand up for you and actually are the worst type of people. You feel braver in terms of actually just being able to actually say, OK, Philip Schofield's a scumbag, whatever it happens to be. And look, my personal story, I guess, with Katie is a bit of an interesting one because we were both colleagues at the Sun newspaper, very much smack bang in the mainstream media. And I would have, I guess, a combative relationship with her for a while because I'm much more sympathetic to people who struggle with their weight than Katie is, right? And so we would have back and forths and argue. But I loved that.

I loved interviewing her because she would challenge you and she would be quite scary in a way because obviously she's super, super smart. But I never, ever thought that she deserved to be cancelled, ever. And what I love about her now is that when folk are cancelled and it doesn't matter who it is so in recent weeks you know you've seen it with gino dicampo or uh win evans i think his name is from certainly come dancing she is there for those people because she knows what it is like and given we were touching on the whole itv woke itv daytime thing i just wanted to show you both one more clip from loose women which is the sister show i guess to this morning and this clip actually happened a few months ago but it's gone viral now and i think it really is worth showing because it totally sums up the hypocrisy when it comes to the treatment of men and women on these shows.

So this is Loose Women interviewing Mark Wright with some brilliant commentary along the way. Can you imagine an all-male panel speaking to a female guest like this? Please welcome Mark Wright. How you doing? Did I see a bit of a tight quadricep coming down that step? Yeah, yeah, I'll bet, I'll bet. Maybe you just need to get naked. That was the address from about 10 minutes ago. You missed it. That's what he thinks. Imagine if it was Mark Wright's wife, Michelle Keegan. She came down, sat on the panel, and some 50-year-old-plus bloke said to her,

I'll tell you what, you should get naked. Imagine that. It'd be cancelled in about five minutes flat. And I'm walking around in blow-dry my hair with nothing on, no towel. I sometimes think... What gym is that? I made some jokes about sitting naked in the changing rooms at the gym. Imagine if that was the other way round. Am I offended by what she said? Not particularly.

Do I think she meant it as a joke? Probably. What I'm offended about is the fact that if it was the other way round and a male panel and a woman guest, it wouldn't be acceptable. So why is it acceptable the other way round? Generally seems to be males that have been singled out and cancelled at the moment, doesn't it? And when you ask the question why that might be the answer is well women don't make

comments like men do do we? Well clearly they do because they have. I've got a video they're showing it. Tell me a joke you should lighten up. Yeah I agree we should all lighten up but if a man makes a joke he's a pervert. So that's not fair is it? Remember that program Take Me Out where the guy used to come down in the lift and the woman used to turn the lights off and they didn't like the look of him before he'd even spoken. Can you imagine that the other way around? A woman coming down the lift and 30 blokes judging her like that? It just wouldn't happen, would it?

I'm not offended by what they said in any way, shape or form. What I am offended about is it doesn't seem to work the same way the other way around, does it? And this one really resonated with me, Charlie Downs, I have to say, because given ITV is so woke, I call it woke ITV now, there are total, total double standards for how men and women are treated. And I'm with that guy, by the way. It's not that I'm saying, okay, Adams should lose her job for sexually exploiting poor Mark Wright, but we've got to be really careful given this is itv that is now trying to cancel and ruin gino de campo for making inappropriate sexual jokes which were jokes right

yeah this is actually this actually gets at something really interesting which is the actual whole concept of gender equality and i am of the belief that the actually I'm not a feminist or anything like that. But I don't believe that, you know, because equality just means the same. Right. And I don't believe that the genders are the same. Therefore, I don't think that it's appropriate to treat the genders in the same way. Because I'll give you an example. If somebody walked up to me in the street and punched me in the face, if that was a man, I would fight back. But if it was a woman, you're not going to turn around as a man and like floor a woman aren't you even if even if she does come up to you and assault you there's something about that in the male spirit that is just inappropriate right because it's not really it's just not a

fair fight at the physical level and so this kind of complaint that you know there's a double standard in the way that men and women are treated on screen, you know, where you can make sexual remarks about a man, but not about a woman. That's just the way it is, I think. And I actually think it's a little bit unbecoming of a man to be hectoring and complaining in this way, because you just sound like a male version of a feminist, like you just sound like, you know, the kind of inverted version of a feminist. What I would prefer is that we have a properly constituted relationship between the sexes where we can on occasion make some racy jokes, you know, because that's, you know,

adds a little bit of spice to life, doesn't it? And we can all just have a laugh and we can all just kind of, you know, not get so het up about this sort of thing, but we live in such an emotionally charged climate at the moment that even, you know, something as, you know, otherwise unremarkable as this exchange is picked up as this kind of culture war issue. You know, what I would prefer to see is a recognition of the fact that men and women are different and therefore need to be treated differently. But actually, at the end of the day, the right

relationship between men and women is not one of uh competition or resentment or you know or hatred but just one of love um one of care and one of you know one that recognizes that the male and the female are complementary parts of a of a greater whole brogan where do you stand from a female perspective on this is is it okay for for the loose women girls to objectify mark but it's not okay for gino DeCampo to tell? I think Charlie hit the nail on the head. There are differences between men and women. Women are seen to be more vulnerable. You know, traditionally they are more sacred, especially when it comes to their bodies and everything else. So I also feel that, you know, if we stop being able to make small jokes like it wasn't hugely inappropriate

it was nothing about his private parts for me it was an icebreaker of him walking onto a panel of women you know jokes to me are kind of that last bit of free speech that we've got you know she couldn't have said that without a comedy context and exactly what Charlie said there are differences between men and women you know if a man hits a woman it is different than a man and a man having a fight and there has to be people that toe that line and say that is the truth and in the same breath women do require a little bit more respect and privacy when it comes to their bodies because traditionally they are the more sacred out of the two when it comes into preserving their bodies.

And can I just add very quickly, Dan, just to that point, if anyone's going to sit there and tell me that your average man wouldn't be loving it if he was in that same situation, then I don't know what to tell you. No, and Mark Grote was loving it. He was absolutely loving it. And I know Mark. We grew up in Essex together. I'm surprised he didn't come out in a tank top.

He's a lovely bloke. He knows the drill. And also, guys, I think one of the main things is, you know, that table of panels, we're not trying to recreate at home, you know. They're not the conversations we have at home. People are tuning in for entertainment. That means a little bit of comedy. That means conversations that they may not be having at home.

And television isn't just a complete replica of real life. It is there to entertain. Very, very good point. Well, look, you guys have certainly entertained today, getting so many comments about you both through on the live chat. Mark Harrop wrote, what a breath of fresh air listening to your guests. These and yourself are our future politicians and truthful media presenters. Thank you very much. Rhys wrote, Charlie is fantastic. Wish he would have a word with my privately educated 22-year-old niece who calls everyone racist if you disagree with her. And John Scotty Wood said, I've just subscribed to the Getting There podcast.

I'm looking forward to watching Katie Hopkins. And Brogan, when is it out? Monday, is that right? We're going to be out Monday night. Monday night. Amazing. Well, look, I watched the whole thing last night i know i know my audience are going to absolutely love this one so uh make sure you subscribe to the getting there podcast and then you'll get the full katie

hopkins interview when it is released on monday but so brilliant to have you both here thank you so much charlie thank you brogan thank you dan uh lots of other comments coming in as as well today uh on the tommy robinson issue pauline galthier wrote my heart breaks for tommy he is a modern day hero who deserves all the love and support he can get from all over the world and pauline is actually writing from canada and dazzler wrote what will they come up with in five months when he is due for release? They will do everything to keep him in there. So effing wrong. And I think that is something that I've certainly thought about. This isn't going to be the end of the

lawfare against Katie, sorry, against Tommy Robinson. But on Katie Hopkins, Ronald, Ronnie, wrote, I like Katie Hopkins because she calls a spade a spade and I am 51 years old and she represents my era. So that is going to be a really great interview, isn't it? I hope you enjoyed the highlights today. But now let's reveal our greatest Britain and union jackass. So the three nominees, Stella Creasy, the Labour MP who said that the UK shouldn't ban illegal migrants because of Paddington Bear, nominated by It's Only Me, 44. Yvette Cooper, nominated by Big Mama Booth for a lack of inquiries. And Rachel Thieves, nominated by Just Margaret because she's now officially in the relegation zone after these revelations from the BBC about her expenses, swindling and CV lies.

The winner, it was relatively tight. So actually, well, I'll take you through the actual votes. In third place, Stella Creasy with 22%. In second place, the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper with 31%. But today's union jackass, Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. And goodness me, it's insane that she will survive. But I think she will, because Keir Starmer knows that once he's sacked as Chancellor, he's gone as well. He's finished as well. And's greatest britain nominated by june

moultrie the buckinghamshire farmers and june writes i couldn't be more proud of my home county farmers go the farmers what a brilliant episode goodness me we've run a little bit long today but don't worry we've still got lady colin campbell she's waiting patiently to be unleashed on substack in the uncancelled after show lady c is going to reveal what's really going on with prince harry and megan markle as she flees the invictus games to skip valentine's day with her husband so head over to substack www.outspoken.live back tomorrow 5 p p.m. UK time, midday Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific with Claire Fox. That is going to be a good one.

Her first time on Outspoken. Make sure you hit subscribe. Turn on the notification bell. I promise to keep fighting for you. And I hope to see you on the after show on Substack in just one moment. Thank you. We'll be you next time.