Dan Wootton Outspoken - 🚨MUSLIM WOMAN CLASHES WITH EX-MUSLIM IN EXPLOSIVE RARE DEBATE ON WHETHER ISLAM IS GOOD FOR WOMEN🚨

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

Ex-Muslim and host of Beyond Belief, Nuriyah Khan and Green Party member Fahima Mahomed join Dan in a brand new episode of The Clash: Is Islam good for women? This rare debate also includes discussion on the banning of the burqa and niqab and whether all muslims should abandon the faith in Britain. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No spin, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Wooten and this is a special clash edition of outspoken as we go head to head on one of the most important and overlooked topics of our times. As the Islamist takeover of the disunited kingdom and much of Europe continues at pace, is Islam good for women? Joining me today, Green Party member and Muslim, Bahima Muhammad. She is alongside the ex-Muslim and host of Beyond Belief, Nariah Khan. Because of this special clash today, we will not be revealing a live Greatest Britain or Union Jackass, but the Royal Uncanceled Aftershow does continue as normal on substack at www.

outspoken.com. Live after the main show. But now, let's go. Leftwing activists parade as champions of women's rights. Let's be honest, they constantly tiptoe around the giant tripwire that is Islam. So while they lecture the West on patriarchy, the Taliban in Afghanistan bans girls from secondary education, bars women from most work and public life and has just passed new rules effectively legalizing domestic violence by husbands. In Iran, women are still arrested for improper hijab use. Yet many devout Muslim women insist the faith liberates them. So tell me, is Islam really good for women?

To debate this today, Muslim Green Party member Fahima Muhammad and the ex-Muslim host of the brilliant beyond-believe podcast, Narea Khan. Fahima, why is Islamism so good for women? Well, you know, Islam is not a person, it's not a regime. It's not actually anything when it comes to even a viral clip, whether it's coming from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan or anything like that. It's a 1400-year-old faith that has been culturally interpreted over many continents across the globe. And we need to obviously answer the question as in who actually defines it.

Is it Muslim women who's living it? Is it someone who is an ex-Muslim who rejects it? Or is it someone who is, you know, misusing it? Or is it even someone like, you know, right-wing, commentators who is prophetizing from it. Who could you be talking about? You know, demonizing Islam, right? I defend women, of course, and especially when it comes to abuse or violence or anything like that.

But at the same time, there's crimes in every single faith, and we do not call out any other faith when it happens in the churches, when it happens in the Epstein Files. We don't call out their, you know, ethnicity, their background, their faith, anything like that. Only with Muslims, like as if to say that the only people in the world, that is us and them and that's it. And I think that's really unfair and it's uncawful. Okay. Norea Khan is, is, is, Islam, good for women? No, is the answer.

I don't think it's conducive to humanity in general, but more specifically towards women. I think Fahima's right, you hit the nail on the head. It's a 1,400-year-old ideology that is absolutely outdated. And the argument you presented is just the typical no true Scotsman fallacy. We hear from Muslims all the time. It's the same Marxist argument that there's never been true communism in the world. If you're denying that Saudi Arabia practices doesn't practice the realist. or Afghanistan doesn't practice the real Islam,

then where really is Islam? Find us a state where this beautiful religion is practiced in a way that we can all look and say, all right, this works. Let's do it. Because when I read the Quran, I do see domestic violence being sanctioned and codified, sexual slavery as well, child marriage with no lower age limit on child marriage,

consanguinity, unilateral divorce for men, rape culture, modesty culture, a whole host of other problems that we can get into. But yes, the answer is. is no, it's absolutely not good for women. I mean, Fahima, it is such a good point, isn't it? All the time when we see these absolute crimes against women. And we see it, as Naree rightly says in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan,

but we also see it here in the United Kingdom all the time. We are always told, oh, this isn't the real Islam. Well, what is the real Islam then? Everyone has crime Everywhere there is crime Every ethnicity Background This is crime justified by the religion

No it's not It also is justified by religions That are Christian That are Jews That are coming from You know the churches and the synagogues Everywhere But we do not see that in the headlines

We do not actually focus on that It's not what aboutry It's not what aboutry If you're an academic And you want to make comparisons About to what is right And what is wrong You have to obviously choose different examples

And you have to obviously make it fair You only see it from one perspective and you're only focusing on one faith. Even these scriptures, they're not just 1,400 years old, which is only Islamic. There's also scriptures, which is the Bible, which is the Torah, which is everything. The Jews also have where they will have their women, you know, have to cover the orthodox way. They also walk on the other side of the streets, okay? They also have patriarchy in most religions and most faith. And yes, we only hear off the actual Muslim crime only.

That's it. Just like how when there was a person. No, it is true. I see the news. I'm Catholic. I am Catholic. And I'm sorry, the child sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, which was utterly despicable, utterly appalling, actually brought down a huge part of that regime. And there was action. And by the way, there were also criminal consequences to it for Hema. And that's what happens everywhere. There is criminal consequences for Hema. for all of those crimes. They don't get away with...

No, this is not under Sharia law. Excuse me. No, they do not. If you go in those countries, their laws are much more stricter for whatever the crimes here. I'm talking about in this country. In this country, when this...

Where Sharia law has practiced up and down the country now. It doesn't go above the English law. And if it does, then again, that's another safeguarding issue. That's to do with the institutes. That's to do with the policing. That's to do with all of those kind of risk assessments. And also people that are involved that are not doing their job properly.

Not with the actual faith itself. And Islam is spread so many different interpretations and ways. You cannot say there's only in that sort of fate that it doesn't practice perfectly. If that's the case, what institute practice perfectly? Even in the United States, you've got 34 states that still allow child marriage, and that's a Western world. What I'm seeing here is here I am a Catholic able to fully accept shocking practices that were widespread, that were completely animalistic and disgusting and actually I would want to see

all of those child abusers within the Catholic Church put to death put to death, put to death and what I hear from you for Hema is never an acceptance that this is going on within your faith but rather look over here look over here look over here

it has to be that way I'm sorry because all these crimes are bad and horrific I've always condoned and said you know what we do not accept this nobody does no human does no person of real faith does. Do you not understand that? What I'm trying to say is

why only pick on a one particular faith when this happens everywhere? We do not see things in the same way. You even shouting and screaming as a man taller than me, heavier than me, is that even supposed to be respectful? No, it's not. But you still carry on that way.

So at the end of the day, what I'm saying right now. I'm very respectful to women. If someone else was to do that, you wouldn't accept it. Well, I'll tell you who's not for Hema. It's only because you get away with it. I'll tell you who's not for Hema.

Islamist men who want a lot people like you up in the houses. I'm sorry. Okay? And treat you like a second-class citizen. I actually treat you as an equal for Hima and that's the difference with my philosophy in this Christian Western country. But then you just collectively blame. I don't view you as a second-class citizen. But you collectively blame.

There are so many Muslims that are actually professional women working, speaking on TikTok, on YouTube. They are even working in government. They are even MPs. Don't tell me that this Islam is not. for women. Okay. Well,

that doesn't really, you know, that narrative is really minor and small and very minuscule for what you're saying. Can we let Eriya come in because a lot of people

might not know Norea's story. It's absolutely fascinating. Norea, you were Islamist or at least you were practicing Muslim. Yeah. And you are now an anti-Muslim.

You have effectively... Anti-Islam. I've left Islam behind. Yeah, you have converted. I mean, you're no, you're not, you haven't converted to Christianity, but you are,

you are not Islam. You left the religion. So you know this religion. Is what Fahima is saying that this is all sweetness and light and women are treated brilliantly correct? I never said that. I never said that. But also under your religion, Fahima,

whether you say it's the right religion or not, in the actual scriptures, I should be dead just because I've left the faith. That's how unicorns and radio is your faith is. When we talk about scriptures, and if you're going to put that... Why are there 11 to 12 countries at the minute still, which have the death penalty for apostasy?

It's only because I came back to the United Kingdom where that doesn't apply that I can sit here and talk to you. is their laws, okay? I don't live in a Muslim country. That's not perfect Sharia. That's not perfect Sharia. That's not, that's not.

No, no. Because even between, say, Saudi Arabia and Iran, they meant Muslim countries. They're completely different. Can I clarify? They completely different. Before I let Naria come back, because we've got time to deal with all of this. So, so can I just clarify, should Norea be dead given she is no longer Islam that she's walked away?

Because that is what one of the scriptures does say. I understand. I understand that. And I... So that scripture is right. wrong. It's not about that scripture's wrong. We have scripture in Judaism and we have scripture in the Bible and we have scripture in Islam in Islam that we don't practice by the core in every country in every state. And Muslims that come to this country or anywhere in the West, we do not

abide by those laws. We'll let Nariah keep telling her story. That's the thing. We do not abide by those laws. Nariah, come back here. It can actually, you know, pivot. Well, for him, the difference between in any other religion and Islam, and I think Christopher Hitchens puts this beautifully, is that Islam makes very, very grand claims for itself, that Sharia and the Quran, which is the divine word of God, is completely timeless, eternal and immutable. You cannot pick and choose what you decide to implement when and where. Yes, you can. No, you absolutely cannot. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. No, scholars, scholars themselves disagree. No, scholars themselves, don't talk about being a lipstick Muslim, okay? I get a lot.

I get, no it's not. Most Muslims really do interpret the way that they feel that most scholars actually also disagree themselves. Do you believe in the Quran? You know I believe in the Quran and it's interpreted in several ways. Once the context is the word of God above man-made laws and the final thing you must believe in and it's unchangeable and it's eternal.

It is not as clear as that because when I'm living here no, because when I'm living here you can pick on one thing, the far left or whatever it is. the one major source of your religion. It is so false the way you're describing it. Because at the end of the day, it says... The corona is not the perfect guide for Muslims? Of course it is.

And it says that I can actually be in this country and follow the law of the land. So how does that also fit in? Are you absolutely allowed to follow the law down? What happens when you have a position of power? Are you allowed to maintain peace with the non-believers once you're in a position of power? Absolutely. What do you think is happening? I don't think you've read Sharia law for him.

I don't think you've been Sharia law. No, you just only have one version and I get what you're saying. My version is consistent across Iran, Saudi, Saudi. No, it's not. There are the really, those places, okay, they follow a Sharia that we do not really comply by. So you know better than Islamic scholars who have sat over 1,400 years doing Ishma. There are several. They are several.

Excuse me, you don't know what I follow. Well, you're clearly, you're throwing or disregarding all of their conclusions that they've are. Okay, so Maria, can you just explain what you mean by a lipstick Islamist or a lipstick Muslim? I'm not sure which phrase you used. Yeah, a lipstick Muslim is somebody who chooses to cherry pick versus from the Quran in the Hadiths, depending on what suits them and reject. Nobody follows.

I respect that you are because I would rather you be a lipstick Muslim than be an Islamist. I'm not a lipstick Muslim. I'm not a lipstick. I would rather you pick and choose and say that's not right. You don't get to label me. Nobody does. Then we can coexist. No.

If you follow Islam to a tea, you'll end up like ISIS. No, the ISIS is completely even against Islam. They've been prompted by the West. Where are they guessing their inspiration? Of course. Where are they? They're literally reading Quran verses. They're striking people at their fingertips because that's what the Quran says.

But that is not allowed. They are taking Yazidi women as sex slaves because that's exactly what Islam said. Sunariah, the scholars don't agree with that. During your time in the faith, can you just explain what your understanding was of how women were mistreated? Yes. So, I mean, personally speaking, so I grew up in the Middle East. I've spent time in Saudi Arabia.

I've spent time in the UAE. I've seen Wahhabi Islam play out. I've seen amputations and beheadings take place after fighting. Which we don't follow. I don't follow. I respect that. I really admire that you don't follow that. Most Muslims don't.

Of women. Of women. Of women. And what had these women done wrong? It's theft. It's petty crimes as well. You get your right hand chopped off if you've stolen from that hand. Is it true that in the Islamist faith,

women are blamed even if their husband has an affair? Well, I mean, that's sexual violence. If you try and report that as a woman, as one of my teachers did in Saudi Arabia, she got dragged to the middle of the desert and raped, that you get lashed and also if you are not married and you've had sex outside of marriage, they don't consider that you're a victim of that crime, so you can't report it.

The same thing happens in glossy modern Dubai, by the way. Even in Qatar, there was that Mexican World Cup official. She got raped in Qatar and she had to flee to not get lashed. So this is the status... Sorry, I just need to clarify this. So women are blamed if they are raped. Yes. the threshold in Islam to prove rape is four witnesses,

which is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. It is not like that. What about in Indonesia? One woman, you actually need to see the act in Indonesia for a euphemism with the fountain pen in the ink. That's what four men, not even women, need to see happen for you to be able to say that's rape. Otherwise, you're in trouble.

So does that mean that women are used for sex? Yes, of course they are. And their sexual crimes are rampant in those countries. and what do you do? You hope that you come from a host country where you can flee back to and get on the first plane out because Sharia, all of this Islam gives women rights, Sharia protects women, it absolutely does not. And while it gives Muslim women an iota of what seems to be protections, which it doesn't, because I tried to get divorced under Sharia and they made my life a living hell and made me go...

What happened? So they used an ancient archaic Sharia law Sharia, which is derived from the Quran because the Quran is the inspiration for everything that goes into Sharia. didn't want to go back to an abusive husband, and they actually used, it's called Ta Azaujia, which relates to the disobedience of the wife, which comes directly out of the Quran verse 434 in the UAE. And they said, you need to return to your husband's house and will arrest you and take you there, and you cannot leave without his permission. It is directly going back to the concept of Nushes in the Quran, which is disobedience of a wife, which is directly from Suran Nissa, which is the verse for women. I know exactly what you're talking about. And that's how they're able to use the law.

I'm trying to say, but people don't practice the poor Sharia in one interpretation. Can I just, can I just? Every religion has that. I get that. But Fima, what I'm trying to understand here, and I hope you can understand where I'm going with this and why I'm trying to understand this. Because I presume you acknowledge, and if you don't acknowledge, please interrupt me. But I assume you acknowledge that there has been a massive scandal in this country with Pakistani Muslim rape gangs. 100% I acknowledge and I spoke out about it too.

Yep, exactly. So what I'm trying to understand is why, why those types of barbaric practices were allowed. And when I hear the way that in their host cultures, these Islamist men are allowed to treat women, it all of a sudden becomes more understandable as to why they thought white girls could be treated in that way. It's not acceptable anywhere. It's not acceptable. But it sounds like it is. No, it's not. I don't know where you're getting that from. Well, I'm getting it from Maria who lived in.

Yeah, but Maria is also talking about extreme countries, which I find that also are very, the UA is extreme. That's the example of Muslims quote to say this is the most modern form of Islam. I don't think that they are, you know, the sort of epitome of Islam. I don't think any country actually in the world is an epitome. There's no real. No, because what I'm saying is they don't interpret my sort of way. Your version thing, but why is your version better than all the scholars that have ever come? I follow scholars. It's just

that my scholars are very few and limited. Do you not understand? They do have that. They are very limited. And the scholars themselves argue against it. Then let me ask you this. I get Muslims against me. Let me ask you this. I'm trying to understand. I'm really trying to understand this. Your experience as a Muslim woman

in the United Kingdom amongst other Muslim people and Muslim men, is that you're an equal? In what sense? Under the way that Islam has practiced. Are you treated as an equal? I've had both experiences, let me be honest. I never denied that there are issues

in sort of Islam or the cultures that I have been involved in. Well, talk to me, what are those issues? So there is, I've always raised this. I was the first Muslim women to be on even Islamic channels years ago outing a lot of Muslim culture, okay, and that they want to interpret from the Quran and to bring it over to say that this is the way to live.

And I've always spoken out about it. When I speak, I'm only spoken for like, you know, one or two minutes or five minutes, and I only give one narrative. But actually the core of me is that I do not, you know, expect anyone to follow the Quran in such a way that... So have you been mistreated by Muslim men? I have not been mistreated,

but I know that people have. I've been taking advantage of 100%. And it happens throughout all cultures. But I'm trying to work this out. But why do you think that's culture and not religion? Sorry. But I'm just trying. Because I know people that follow the religion like myself who do not carry on like that.

But I'm trying to work this out. But so you're saying you're not equal to a man. I am equal. Of course I am. And they also. And you're treated as equal. I'm treated higher than most other sort of like, you know, genders if anything.

The ones that I know that practice their faith and I have many professional friends, families that are married, that I've worked in the community for many years across the UK, Wales, Scotland and everything. But what about someone like Ahmed Yakubu who has been on this show saying, well, of course a Muslim woman shouldn't work. He would think it's totally despicable that you're doing something like this. He thinks that you should be kicked and at home. I've been on podcasts on sort of like Muslim men who claim to be Tao men.

And I've always spoken out against their own sort of ways of thinking and believing. And that is still my faith and me being a Muslim woman. And I've seen even Muslims, hundreds of them, convert, and they practice different to me. So again, a lot of people think that they call me not Muslim, but I am Muslim and I am practicing the way I know that my scholars show and I'm not perfect and no one is. And no one follows by the tea either.

Okay, we are all striving. But there are so many different interpretations. And it doesn't just come, because we are living in this country with so many Muslims who are living fine. who are abiding fine and they are doing well. And I'm not saying that there are ones that are not doing it and they are not having those issues. But I see that in every culture, not just Islam.

There are so many people. Not in churches. Of course. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Show me a church in the United Kingdom, Norea, where people are told that women can be raped or that gay men can be pushed off the top of building.

No, what does that either. I'm sorry. That is rubbish. They do. And if they do, they should be called out because that is completely wrong. You need to go up and down the country and you need to listen. I have seen. You need to listen to the Friday sermons, what they're saying.

I have been to every single faith. I would not. I would stand up. How dare you be gay. If you're gay, you need conversion therapy because there's something going with you. I have sat in mosques. You should be better off being at home, being covered up, guarding your chastity for your man. Women are speaking up.

You are an anomaly. No, no, right now, women are speaking. You should not be sitting here. You should not be sitting in front of Dan. He's a non-mehrum to you. Yeah, I've heard all of that because I sit in all these spaces. I have heard that. I have completely heard them.

But you've got it right. No, there's many women that think like that. There's many men that also think like that. You're just picking on a group that is not the actual, you know, the actual state of all of it. I really do believe that because you, I don't, I'm not taking away your experience. I'm not taking away what you think. And I do acknowledge the fact that you are not Muslim and you have all right to do that. What was your experience?

Norea. I have sat against many ex-Muslims. So you say that you were treated appallingly in a Sharia court when you try to. to divorce. What else did you experience, Naria, that made you decide to leave the Islamistak? Because I was a Muslim at the time, you have to go under Sharia law, even if you live in a modern, glossy state like Dubai. And so just to enact divorce, you have to lose all the small rights that you have, which is a monthly maintenance according to Islam. So I gave foregoat all my rights. The police were about to send me back to my husband's house where you can't

leave is essentially kidnapped. And then because I was still fighting to get a divorce, he had convinced them that there were Islamic demons or gins inside me and that's the reason I wanted a divorce. So I was forced to go to Islamic therapy and counseling. And that's like the exorcism type practice? Yes, exactly. I've heard about this. Yes. And that is apparently a

very dehumanizing horrendous experience, the exorcisms. Yeah, absolutely. What happens? Well, there's an again, you're surrounded by men in this religion. It was sitting with an emirati Sheikh and he's just trying to read like bits of

the Quran and things on you to try and make you. And it's almost like they think they're cleansing you. That's what they believe. Exactly. There's always a cult in every faith. And I see that as a cult, which I firstly have called out. I've sat in mosque and I've heard. I have heard. I have heard. I have heard servants. Can I ask you a question. Because the reason I still managed to escape by like, you know, the skin of my teeth and get out of there. If I had children, all of these judges said to me, if you had children, you would be screwed. So just asking you, woman to woman, in Islam, who gets custody of the child after they're done breastfeeding and they're about grown enough to be with

the dad? Seven years old, maybe? Who gets custody for life? It is the man. Without, despite no matter what's going on in his life, whether he's an extremist terrorists. No, no, no. That shouldn't be, that is not that.

If you are in a, who gets it? Look, we are mixing countries and cultures. You just say that you were equal. I am. I'm above. That's how it actually is. But you accept that it. And most people that treat me and lots of women that I know that are living in this country.

I do. I have two boys. And I don't want to get personal. You can, you can. It's fine. So you're married? I was. Okay. Yes.

And if your husband had wanted custody of those children, he would have got there. It wouldn't work in this country. And in Islamic country, who would have got custody? It would have been him, but a lot of the times. And do you think that's right? I think that a lot of women want to actually have that freedom and they've actually asked for it. So again, it's autonomy. Okay.

And the thing is, I feel. By default, it goes to him. Is that right? Yes, but we're not in the Islamic country and we don't live there. And I don't either live there. I've never been there. I've never born there. I've visited. But Bahima, can I just say, in Sharia councils, I know you're saying the law of the land trumps, but here in Sharia councils, many women are gaslit and blackmailed into, forget going to English courts.

You're a Muslim. We're going to settle this in our local mosque. I have spoken out about that. I have also encouraged women not to just have the Nicar, which is the Islamic marriage, but also the Western marriage, because they're not. they actually have more rights in this country. There's a lot of people that don't actually like that, that I actually advise that because it gives them more rights. I've advised women that even if they're sitting in a sermon,

which I have done myself, and if I see and hear something that is not right from the actual scholar, I will write to them and have a letter. And the next day, they will do it. But it does feel like even you acknowledge. I do acknowledge. There are massive issues. There's always issues.

There is always issues. And I'm not saying it's, I think, they're faith. No, for me. No, because I follow the faith, but I don't follow people. Even the scholars, they are not infallible, okay? I will take from that. The prophet Mohammed was infallible. Yes, I do.

Okay, so he has said that a woman is deficient in intelligence and deficient in religion. We're deficient in intelligence because the testimony of a man is worth double of a woman. No, I don't. The thing is, you're picking on scripture. Can I answer at least if you're asking me a question, right? It's like you's picking on the script is with context. is to say that if she's maybe in a form of like where she's not going to be able to actually have those kind of, you know, thinking whether she's on her period or whether she's not feeding well or anything like that, then that's how it feels. That's the actual context of it. Not that she's inferior. So they give more sort of like that. So why less inheritance than a man? Is that to do with emotions or women have good periods? No. It's also to do the fact that more likely the father will look after the thing. But look at your situation. Life doesn't always work out like that. Of course not. And how unfair is that to you?

No, because that's why I always say that these things are there as a guide. It doesn't mean that you have to follow it to the team. So, Mohammed was misogynistic just by default as a guide. It wasn't misogynistic. It was there in that time and it has evolved. That's why there's scholars and Hadith that's come out even 200 years later, which not all are authentic, by the way. Not all that they say.

Sure. But what about when he said, okay, the three things that Nullify prayer are a donkey, a dog and a woman. And Aisha, his child bride said... I don't know where you're coming up with that because I've never heard it and I don't believe in it. Literally say Hadith. I don't follow that. Do you not understand? There's so many different hadies that I don't.

No, it's not. Do you have you not heard? There's so many different interpretations. You come from a culture. I don't believe in. No. It is the truth. It's bad.

Just call a spade a spade. There are people that are like from Indonesia. There are people that have the most amount of Muslims are from there. Exactly. So let's come back to the United Kingdom. Well, I will. I will. And that's what I want to talk.

No, no. But Pahima, Pahima, Pahima. I don't even belong to. But I know so many Muslim men. I don't belong to that. But I know so many Muslim men in the United Kingdom who say, I mean, I can show you videos of the man speaking with the woman sitting there in the letterbox, unable to speak. I know, writing on a board. I get that.

I've sat on that. I have sat in his podcast. Do you not understand? I have been close to these people. Tell me what's going on there. So what I'm saying is we all are Muslims, but we're not monolithic like you expect. We do have so many interpretations. We're not a block.

We do not. That's why you will even have Muslims in reform. So are they liberal Muslims? Are they liberal Muslims? I wouldn't say lipstick. They were, they're just, maybe liberal. Maybe people call me liberal. Maybe that could be it.

I don't know. But like I said, I don't believe in labels and I don't believe putting myself in a box. And I'm ever evolving. I do not follow what my faith. What about Shabana Mahmood not wearing her head gear? Is that wrong? Half my family don't. My mom doesn't.

Okay. I chose on my own when I was 18. Nobody my family wears them. I am in a Muslim faith, which actually is different. So I get your experience, but you also have to acknowledge mine. that I actually do have... Well, I do. I do.

And I want to come back to it specifically on this issue of dress because it is a huge question. Absolutely. Should the burqa be banned? And left-wing politicians scream Islamophobia the moment anyone raises it. But let's cut through the nonsense. In Britain, women are walking through our streets

completely covered from head to toe, faces hidden. In a garment, many argues, symbolises oppression and separates folk from the rest of the rest of. of society. From security risks at airports and banks to the total erasure of women's identity to the uncomfortable question of whether this is genuine choice or pressure from extremist communities. The burqa has no place in a modern, open Britain in my view. France, Belgium and others have already banned it. So why are we still tippy towing around this issue? Let's clash now with Green Party star for Hima Muhammad and ex-Muslim, the host of Beyond Belief, Nariah Khan.

So I will just say from the outset, this is deeply uncomfortable for me because I am a liberal man that believes in freedom of choice. But unfortunately, I now believe that all of this cultural dress must be banned because women are being used and exploited. Forima, why am I wrong? Because I believe that in a democracy, we are given autonomy. women's choice is never to force them to either wear it or even not to wear something. And I do feel that we have laws in this country that actually can't, you know, take away force of, you know, dress or marriage or anything that is, you know, illegal in the sense of the Western world. And I do feel that I personally have spoken. I've had shows with reverts, with Muslim

women that do cover by choice. And they've come on TV and they've spoken on my shows and they've actually spoken out loud and they've actually got, you know, autonomy. And they are actually wanting to and I'm not taking away from the fact that yes, some of them may be. Some of them are in that way. But like I said, again, that's when education, safeguarding, you know, criminal activities that happens across all cultures and whatever, religions and faith, their criminals are criminals. Men are men. Dangerous is dangerous.

It doesn't go for that. But let me, you know this one? Yes. This one. What's it called? The knee cub. The knee cub. That's unsafe.

People walking around like that. That is unsafe. For who? For the person inside? For the people who don't know who they're speaking to. That's your opinion. But also for me, because that could be an Islamist terrorist behind that. How am I going to know?

Well, they're not the ones that. But they are not the ones causing the crimes. So it's safe for everyone. I get that. But they're not the ones causing the crime. It's unsafe for everyone. I get that. But when they are in public office, when they are in the courts, when they are in the airports,

they have to take it out. Even if they go to Saudi Arabia to pray, they have to take it out. Even when they pray as women, they take it out. So you're fine with the kneecap. I'm only fine with it because I feel if they choose to, then this is the country for it. Someone that's dressed half naked and someone that dress fully covered. That's what I like about this country. We can do it all.

Well, Norea, I want you to have an opportunity to respond. Do you think these types of races should be banned? Yes, absolutely. I think it is a bare minimum in an open liberal democracy, you know, you need to respect certain civil norms. And in a high trust society, we expect to be able to see micro-expressions and it's part of the social contractor, as Dan was saying,

it's unsafe if somebody's face is covered, for example. I know you're saying it doesn't affect other people, It does. It's in the public interest. But only Muslim women, not many bern carvers. No, there have been cases when a Nicarbi woman is driving and she's crashed because her peripheral vision. Where was that? Google it.

There's so many cases. But come on. There's so many other cases of so many different things. The judge ruled. And even in Kuwait, an Islamic country, they said no women can wear the Nekar while driving because they are a danger to other passengers and themselves. And to go one step further.

So it's old people up to a certain age and they should be trained again. It's the same thing. No, that's a false equivalence. That is also. That is not a false equivalence. That is exactly the evidence. as well, there are Islam, not just Islamists,

there are normal people committing crimes wearing burkas, for example. I don't know if you've heard about the burqa bandit in California. And also in Manchester and London, they rob jewelry stores and banks by being covered in the burqa. There is a social contract we need to adhere to. And also, your first point, it's so, I'm

glad you said it yourself, but if there is even an element of coercion behind closed doors, whether it's from the family or the religion itself, because the religion says, there is. There is. So you want to just have a ban and collectively every woman that even wants to choose. Can you at least, can you at least acknowledge?

Well, can you at least acknowledge? I did acknowledge. I did say that there are force, even to wear hijab. I did say there is force for everything. But you said a small number, didn't you? Well, you know, people don't know. What percentage? I would still say it's a very small percentage.

Well, I think you're- I think you're delusional. No, I'm not delusional. I think you're delusional. I worked with the Sharia, you know, sort of councils. I think it's 99. 9.99% of women in kneecabs are coerced. That's just off the air.

Well, why did they stop wearing it when America was in Afghanistan and the Taliban weren't in power anymore? Whenever women are given the choice they choose not to wear it. You're talking about cultures that are there, here and across the world. Women's autonomy. You know, you cannot. Most women, when given the free and fair choice, will never choose to dress like that.

That is a fact. Yes, it is. No, it's not. I'm the one that is a complete opposite of what you just said. You've got a fair choice. Why don't you wear the burqa? But my family don't actually wear even hijab. Why don't you wear the hijab?

If you like it, if it's such a perfect choice. I just told you it's not something I would wear. Why? You're just like majority of women then. Most women don't choose that unless. Most women won't wear the hijab and I've chosen to wear the hijab. Most women take it off. It's the same thing what you're trying to say.

No one in my family wears hijab and I have the freedom to put it on when everyone in my family don't wear me. It's the same thing. And because right now you don't have a, a man telling you that don't you dare take it off. My man or any man would never tell me and I'd never be with a man to tell me to do that. I was not with a man who was even Arab, okay, Iraqi, who was married to me for many years. And he did not force me even though it's come from a moment of faith in religion.

And many of my friends who where hijab have chosen, many people that are converting to Islam in this country and across the globe are becoming Muslim. Okay. What you're saying is 100% just from your own trauma and also your own experience. You're welcome for democracy. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome.

You're not fair. to do that. You cannot say it's in this country and now they're bringing it over here and it's in that. It's whatever. You got lucky. Your family's good. You live in a liberal democracy. There's many, many families like mine. That's what I'm saying. My mosque, my mosque forced me to wear it at nine. I would never be in your mosque. I was in London. In London. It doesn't matter. I'm a very small minority of Muslims. Okay, this is important. Just hold five for one second. This is important because I've got a lot I want to pick up on here. First, Norea, I want to hear about your personal experience because I think it's really valuable, given not that many people do leave the religion and speak out.

So you're saying that your mosque in West London forced you into what, a burqa at a young age? A hijab at a young age. Nine years old. Explain how that happened because that's really worrying. So I would go to mosque every day after school and the Quran teacher was there, who was my Quran teacher, was a very devout Islamic lady. and she used all the Quranic sources, including Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, to tell us that you are reaching an age now

at the young age of nine that you need to cover up and if you want to get on the right path to heaven, you need to wear the hijab because God respects... Because how old was Muhammad's wife? Isha was nine when he consummated the marriage with her according to Islamist scripture. I don't believe in that Hadith either as a Muslim.

I'm not surprised. I wouldn't want to either if I was a Muslim. No, we don't have that. We don't have that. Because I accept what I see. Sorry, I'm just trying to... No, that is so wrong. What you're saying?

But Tahima, I'm just trying to understand it. I'm just trying to understand how this teacher justified. I presume you're not saying Naree is lying. So I'm just trying to understand. No, I know. I've seen that. Okay, so I'm just trying to understand because obviously I'm not a member of the faith and haven't been. So I'm trying to understand.

The thing about the nine-year-old thing is because Muhammad's wife was nine. And so the idea is that by the time you're nine years old, that's the age that you should wear the hijab. Yes, things get very serious for you. You as a young lady, not in Islam, wrong word, but as a child, yes. You know what it is right now? It's the way in which people frame things. Like most people will say to me, the way in which you're taught Islam is out of fear, right? This is probably the way you've been brought up and the way you have.

No, actually. My father was very liberal. Whatever it was. Okay, the teacher out of fear. And I've been to mosques like that as well where they do, you know, in force, but that most religions are like that, where they say that you're going into a choir or this and you have to wear certain things. And why do you like wearing the hitcher? I'll come back to that in a minute. Let me finish.

So the first thing is, that's what it is, the framing, okay? Say, oh, this teacher was really, you know, scary and told me all of this, which is fair. And you obviously don't believe in wearing it. But when you go into Rome and you have to go into the church, you most women, even up till now when I visited Rome, they will put the, you know, the scarf on no matter what. There is a certain way that Muslims have. So is Christianity. It's not codified in the Quran, which says God wants you to do this. Otherwise, you're going to go to burn in hell.

Again, it's another, it's another interpretation. How is the Quran an interpretation? It is an order. No, it's not. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, everything. I don't know what sect you belong to, but all four Sunni schools of jurisprudence. I don't follow any of the Sunni sect, by the way. Well, they don't follow that.

Even Shias, agree. Even Shias, they're so different as well. Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. Everybody agrees. That's what I'm trying to say. At the very minimum, the Quran is encouraged and recommended, if not obligatory, by Sura Nissa. And that's what I'm trying to explain. There is nothing wrong in someone framing it as if to say it is like

something for you to get used to if you are going to be wearing it older. You're saying it like as if it is a force. It's something you have to be doing. I don't believe and I was not brought up in a force. That's what I chose. Can I ask you? You're lucky. That's what I'm saying?

Sometimes the way in which it's taught. What's the positive for you for wearing this over your head? Because I learned my faith myself and I've seen so many different scholars speak. And why do you like it? Why do you wear it? It is my identity. It is a symbol and it's also a very small part because for me it's more about. You want everyone to see you're Muslim.

It's not about everyone to see. Well, no, I'm just trying to. Yeah. It's just the fact it gives, like I said, people have an identity, okay? And that's my identity. So but the thing is... And can I just ask, again, very genuine question, what are the positives for women of wearing the kneecap?

What are the positives about it? I personally will say that if they feel that in their interpretation, it brings them closer to God. I've heard many scholars say that actually you probably stand out more if you're going to be wearing that in a Western... It must be so hot and uncomfortable. It's hot to wear this. It's hot to wear, you know, the nun.

What they wear is hot to wear a lot of things. We do it out of, you know, faith and sort of connection. And we have our own. But the knee cab is very extreme because you're completely covered. Like there's no space to breathe. Okay, we're talking completely different. That is someone, if they manage, they manage. In the summer, I can't wear even though hijab, the way normally I have to wear this

because I need my neck. You know, I have to sort of feel like that. Okay, that's how it is. So I'm just trying to work out what the positives are about people wearing the knee cam. Well, they feel that, you know, that's what they want to be like. And that's how they feel. women feel quite empowered because, you know, even you think that, you know, someone in a bikini is free. They're not necessarily free either. What's empowering by letting everything on your own

amazing? Veil and eating like this. Like, what's empowered? If you don't understand it doesn't mean it's right. You haven't spoken to someone with hijab and Vukkah. How do you eat? You know, all of them. You know, all of them. A lot of them, if they are in, in sort of like Saudi Arabia, they have special sort of rooms for families where they can remove it and they will eat. And in this country, some of them actually don't wear it in such a strict form where they sometimes do take it out just when they're eating. But they don't have to wear it at home? No, and they don't even have, in fact,

they're not supposed to even wear it when they're praying. So even in public, they have to remove it from their face has to be exposed. Okay, and, and then I'm also. For me, it's not the dress. For me, I learned it's about conduct. It's about in the way in which you treat people. So even when some of these scholars and some of the people that are putting it as a fear on people like how you were, for me that's wrong way of teaching Islam.

I was not brought up like that. And a lot of people are not brought up like that. What about this new? And those people are converting to it, which you cannot deny either. So not converting to it. Of course they are. Of course they are. No, it's your birth rate.

I have seen. It's birth rates. No, it's not birth rate. I've interviewed so many reverts. The reverts within. In this country. Okay. In this country.

Of course, they're still on my, for 10 years, they still here. Within three years, most reverts leave Islam because lo and behold, they see the reality of it. They're fed this. Okay. And so a revert is, sorry, can I just clarify. I've got another statistic. A revert is someone.

someone who has left and comes back? No, no, they're... They basically converts. Someone who's being Christian? Yes. Yes. And you're saying there's a lot of these people. Of course. There's so many of my friends. They're on TikTok. They're on YouTube.

They actually have their own shows and podcasts. They speak as women. And why would they do that? What's the reason? Because they feel empowered. They feel that they can do like everyone else and they're there to show it without having to show skin or without having to feel like they have to follow a certain way. And can I also just clarify, forgive me, talking about the dress.

What is this burkini thing which seems to be taking up? Is that a way for women to be able to swim without taking any clothes? Well, it's like how you'd have a diving suit. Yeah. Okay. Could you ever go into the water not in a burkini or would that be considered showing off too much skin? Well, if I am covered, I'm not going to uncover myself to go into the pool. So it's just like, you know, a process of doing the same thing and having a garment that's going to be completely covering myself as well.

Is this a rule? Is this a rule that women are not allowed to show? any flesh, even if it's in the context of, for example, being at the beach or being at a pool? Is that a rule? Your head and your body needs to be covered from head to toe. At all times? Yes. When outside the house.

Yes. And outside the mosque. Yes. Or even inside the mosque. Yeah. You're coming into contact with men who are not your blood relatives or your husband. So yes. Got it.

So you don't have to wear it if you're with men who are blood relatives or your husband. I wish we had a Jewish person here as well. because they also have very strict rules and even strict conservative Catholics. They have the same sort of rules when it comes to modesty. It is not even ancient when it comes to British, you know, history of women covering

and it wasn't seen as demonizing or anything then and they had autonomy and people still carry these traditions up till now whether you like it or not, whether you think it's a good thing or not. But do you get beaten to death if you choose not to do that? We don't have that here. Oh, well, you're lucky once again. You're so lucky.

But what's it got to do with anything? We're not living in Iran and we're not living in Saudi Arabia. But there are women here for Himah who are being honour killed, who are being forced to wear that. And again, we have crime. Britain. That is a crime then. And that's what everyone is under. But they're being killed because they're not wearing hijab properly or they chose to dress like Westerners.

That is wrong. That is wrong. And every Muslim that I know believes it's wrong and it should be criminalized. And it is criminalized. But some women, you're saying, have been physically harmed in the United Kingdom for not dressing in a modest way. If they're trying to live a double life from their family, if they get caught,

they have been even on a kield for choosing to dress healthy peace. Because what's interesting, when we had this Islam debate the other day, with the lights of Yakman Akhen Akhub and Charlie Downson from Restore Britain, what was interesting is where they sort of did come to a point of agreement. Exactly. I've seen that. Yeah, was around this whole issue of like,

yeah, the woman at home. need to, well, yes, but also look at some of the negative sides of our society at the moment, where you've got Lily Phillips and you've got Bonnie Blue. And actually a lot of conservatives think, well, okay, yes, we don't want our women in kneecabs, but we also don't want our women walking around naked boasting about sleeping with 500 men in one day. Sure. But I guess what you're saying, Norea, is this isn't actually about modesty. It's about punishing women. Yeah, because like Bonnie Blue and Lily Phillips. They are extreme examples.

Yes. So it's like going from that. To be fair. Well, this is the problem though. That's enforced through violence. Like exactly what the point that done just made. It's not down here. And if it's by violence and endorsed.

And also they're not doing that out of their free will. You can say whatever you want about Bonnie Blue and I don't for a second want to even, you know, condone what she's doing. But she's not, there's no threat of violence behind that. She's just acting of her invalition. But Nouria, do you, But do you understand that some people are looking at the British culture, right,

the British sexual culture of Lily Phillips and Bonnie Blue and sort of saying, oh gosh, this is going too far. And actually, while there's a lot about Islamism, which is hugely concerning, now by the way, I don't actually endorse this view. I really don't. But that is what a lot of conservatives are saying. Well, at least Islamist women aren't running around naked. on the streets covered in semen, you know? Yeah, I know, I just think that's a false dichotomy,

just because we pick out two extremes from Western society, which most women... Excuse me, that's what you're doing about extremes from Islamic countries and bringing it here. It's backed up by that. No, it's not. I do not think is backed by that. I would love to see a survey of women in Britain

who are choosing to wear the barrican cup of their own will. You're just doing it from your own. Look, I'm sorry for your experience and I acknowledge it, but do not make that as if it's everyone else. And also your interpretation of Islam is certain not mine. Your culture is different to mine.

Your culture is not to mine. I would not follow your culture or your interpretation. Let Norea asked the question and you can answer her question. I think you've conflated culture and religion the entire time throughout this conversation. You've completed different countries. You've completed. Norea, what did you want to ask for Hima? Is the order of the Quran, is the order to veil?

Does it come directly from God himself in Islam? Yes or no? No. Wow, so you're denying the actual Quran. Because many people have interpreted that it only is to cover the bosom. Then some people say the Chimar is just the head covering. Yes. So that's why some women who are practicing Muslims say that I'm a practicing Muslim,

but I don't need to wear the hijab. Then there are also Muslims that say... Like Shabana Mahmoud. Yes. Or she will even agree that what she's doing is actually also sinful, but she's happy for that. My mom doesn't wear the hijab. So it's sinful because she's not wearing it, correct? it is something that she's not,

she's not one of the obligations that she's following. But it's a sin, yeah. It's a sin. Okay. Yes. Can I say something really quickly? Your final point, before we move on.

I just want to say that the actual origins of the hijab, whether you want to call the hijab from what you're wearing to the full nikab, to the burqa, if you look into Islamic history and you see why it came down in the first place, it was because one of Muhammad's wives was out answering the call of nature at night. And one of Muhammad's companions at the time called Umar Ibn Hattab was doing, one of his sexual raids and he spotted her. He was the one who was asking Muhammad over and over again to put down a verse to order Muslim women to be veiled so, Dan, that they could be recognized from non-Muslim women who were a fair game to be molested and harassed. The exact Quran verse telling

Muslim women to veil says, oh prophet, tell you're believing women to cover so that they will not be known. Because if it was a white Christian woman, they could be raped. Exactly. And what do we see, lo and behold, happening with the grooming gangs in England and what they are called and the logic reasoning they give. Well, I think your context, it is disturbing. And is that true? And every single Muslim person do not agree with grooming gans. No, it's not true.

What Narea's just said? No, she's only saying scriptures with her interpretation from her school of thought. No, she's got, she's got a different school of thought. You might have to look into a historic history. No, but even still, that Islamic history is not my Islamic history and not my interpretation. No, it's not. We don't even believe in. Okay.

Stand by. Stand by. Stand by for just one second because the clash continues. Should all Muslims be forced in this country to give up their religion? Now that's a question most people are too terrified to even ask out loud. But with Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, no-go zones, demands for even more Sharia courts, parallel societies, and growing terror threats dominating the headline year after year, many are now saying it is time to stop pretending Islam is just another faith like many others.

Millions of moderate Muslims may live peacefully in Britain, yet the ideology itself seems fundamentally at odds with Western values of freedom of speech, women's rights, gay rights and secular democracy. So, very simple question we are going there. Should Muslims be forced to abandon their faith to fully integrate it? Britain. Clashing it out. Green Party star Fahima Muhammad, an ex-Muslim, host of the hit podcast Beyond Belief, Nariah Khan. Naria, should Muslims in Britain convert? Or even if they're not converting to Christianity, should they walk away from the Islamic faith? Look, Dan, that is a beautiful thought. I would ideally, in a perfect world, I would love for that to happen because

we need to understand Islam cannot be lumped in with any other religion. It's not just a personal faith you would adhere to behind closed doors. It has a de facto political element to it. It is constantly trying to encroach in public life. It is trying to impose itself and remove and erode secular democratic values that we have, you know, years people in this country have fought and died for those values. So I would genuinely, and this is a compliment to you for him, I'm very glad that you are the type of Muslim that you are because if we can defang Islam and say, right, we'll get all the Ahmad Yakubs and the Islamist mentality out of Islam. And it kind of, and it's funny because this is again, what Muhammad said, that Islam started off as something small and maybe it will end as something

weird and small. I really look forward to that day when it can just recoil and become something where you pray five times the day in your home or in the mosques. You're not shouting out of sermons to kill the Jews and, you know, to throw gay people off the top of the highest tower and to, you know, tell women to stay at home. So a defanged Islam, I think, would be something that if the UK government could acknowledge that this is a genuine threat, it's an ideology that's not benign. That would be the ideal. Well, firstly, that is not Islam.

That is just, you know, cherry picking certain people. And I wouldn't call that Islam. I would call that red pill men. I will call that men in general that will come from all types of men. So you're saying people shouldn't walk away from the religion? No, not any religion because that's not a democracy. But specifically Islam. Specifically Islam.

Absolutely, like I said, it is definitely a faith that. is part of the Abrahamic faith, which has actually got more in common than you realize. Again, you just want to choose what you want to choose. You want to pick on what you want to pick. And you want to just also make it like as if, you know, your experience or your interpretation is an interpretation of us all. That's why it calls them the worst of creatures, does it?

No. Because it has so much in common with them. At the end of the day, we have so much in common when it comes to Jews and Christianity and especially Catholicism. So at the same time, I feel that in a democracy, we should have the autonomy to choose, whether it's the clothing, whether it's the faith. and we do have laws which are very strict

and I do believe in that fact that if there is any risk then that is already been taken care of yes there's flaws and it needs to be processes as just a citizen of Britain I am deeply concerned about Islamism and I look at Islam Islamism which one is there all of it I guess for you yeah exactly just to be clear

there's no point you sugar coating it because I look at the terror attacks okay from 7-7 to Lee Rigby to Ariana Grande to London Bridge. So you want to collectively blame everyone for it? Well, I just... A collective ban?

I just keep thinking that actually our country would be much safer. No, it won't. Islam wasn't practiced at all. No, it won't. Because the thing is, it's only because when there is a Muslim or even shouts it... Why do these terror attacks keep taking place? Because that, again, is a false flag majority of the time. What do you mean?

I do believe that these people are either put there with... either some mental health problems, or they have absolutely no clue about the religion itself and they're using it, just like how people will use the far right with the flags, and they don't believe in it, or they even disband Christianity by doing that. That's exactly in every faith, like I said, okay?

But we are not using in the headlines. It will go on for weeks if it's a Muslim, okay? But we would never do that for any other. And they all come from some faith, they come from some background, but we never pick on that. Yes, of course. We never pick on that.

Have you read the Quran? Several times. In English. Both. Arabic and English. So you're telling me, you can't see a link where it says go in, kill the unbelievers or why the Jews and Christians, when the Jews and Christians are the worst of creatures, you don't understand why certain people are going around and targeting a specific kind of people are doing something. Well, that's why the separation from those verses? Only extremists will take

certain, you know, quotes like you are and just roll with it without any understanding context, jurisprudence, theology, and that's what it is. Pfeema. So any extremists can do that. Any extremist. Axel Ruda-Kabana. We don't believe in extremism. Axel Ruda-Kabana only decided to go and stab those three beautiful young girls

that are Taylor Swift dance class. Once, he had converted. Once he started reading Al-Qaeda training manuals. Al-Qaeda's got nothing to do with Islam. No, does ISIS, no does any of these extremist groups. I'm sorry, they do not belong. Well, you might want to tell them that because they're not. Well, they don't come and even attack their inspiration.

They are carrying on Muhammad's work. No, they actually attack Muslims more than outsiders. Most of these groups are actually attacking Muslims in Iraq and in Syria and Yemen and all of these places. They actually attack Muslims. So they're not from Islam. They will only attack Muslims if they think that Muslims are siding with the West because they are so anti-West because they're gaining their inspiration. They are paid by the West a lot of the times. They are paid by the West.

This sounds to me like you were denying it. Islam as terrorism. They are. Tell that. No, you are. They are. You are denying it. I'm saying that they are.

Because go and tell that to David Amos' daughter. Oh, that's where you come again. Seriously. Seriously. They are horrific and they do not belong in any faith or any religion. It is. It is. How?

100% because they are not Muslim. They shouldn't be in the country. That's what they say. How can you deny their Muslim experience? How can you deny their inspiration? Shemima Begham was radicalized in an East London mosque. Because again, it's an interpretation. which is just taken out of context.

They have no understanding of learning. They have no way of believing in the way in which should be. We are here to live as Muslims to have peace and to coexist. We need to coexist and have peace. I know. That's how it should be. And that's how it is. Because we are actually living in peace.

It's just that when crimes happen from every group and it is only Islam, that's only being. I'm not denying it. You are. I'm saying that they are false. You're saying it's nothing to do with Islam. It's nothing to do with the. the mainstream Islam, no.

So it's what, to do with Islam extremism? It's extremism, yes. So you do concede that because previously you were saying they were false flags. It's like looking at some of the Talmud or the sort of like, you know, the Torah and looking at things that was there 100 years ago, which does not apply now. But I mean, I want you to be honest. I want you to be honest because I've looked at a lot of Green Party candidates, for example, who say that, like Mark Adela's husband, who says that he believes that 9-11 was a false

flag and was actually committed by Israel, that October 7 was actually a false flag and was committed by Israel? I mean, if you believe that, feel free to say it. But I'm trying to work out what you're saying here. But I don't think that these are real Muslims that are there for, you know, the whole and the good for what it should be. No, true scotsman fallacy as always, no true scotsman fallacy. So when they yell out, and this is a fact, you know it's a fact, when they yell out alu Akbar before blowing themselves up. It has nothing to do with Islam. We're not supposed to kill.

And there's rules in law, and for war and things like that. The Quran says go kill. No, again, it's context. Again, it's context. Do you believe the Quran is timeless and applies to all times? Yes, it does.

There we go then. So why are you saying that was that time? But do you not understand. It was then because again, that's a big gotcha moment for Hema. No, it's not a gotchew moment. Because again, it is interpretation of context. You're saying, you're saying,

The Quran applies today. It does apply now with the right interpretation of what that means. And only you know that. Only you and you're one scholar who says the Islamist rainbows and unicorn says that. It's everyone that's living in the UK. Otherwise, we're all going to be, you know, really, is everyone. All of those Muslims. Of course, we're living in peace.

So you're accusing all these two billion Muslims who are practicing to be part of that? I'm accusing all of the ones that make up the MI5's watch list. No one of the last. No, but I do want to know. It's absolutely ridiculous to say things like that. Your deputy leader, a man I presume you respect Moth and Arlie. I don't respect anyone. I only acknowledge people. I don't know him personally. We're not there by association.

Fine, fine, fine. Your deputy leader, once he was elected to the Birmingham Council, yelled out in front of all of the cameras, Alu Akpa. Now, that was very offensive to people who have been blown up by Islamists screaming Alu Akpa. It's only because it has been you, just like how I would say, okay, it's offensive, it seems offensive to how, you know, the flag. Exactly. But that's not that. It's not that. People have associated with that.

They have hijacked it. So it doesn't mean that when every time it's called out, we say that 10 times a day, you know, what does it mean? What does it mean? We say that in our prayer. We say that in our prayer every time we pray. Okay. So do you understand why someone like me and because you have an interpretation?

I'm sorry if this is offensive to you, but I now link Alu Akbar with extremism because I've heard it being shouted out before debate. So then you'll understand why if the far right are linking, you know, sort of some people are scared of the flags because it's linked to the far right. And that's not acceptable either. Like what?

The union jack? Yes. Well, the far right is. The St. George's flag. The same George's flag. But for hima, the far right, the far right ain't blowing you up. Okay. No.

No, they are. We're not, we're not blowing you up, Fahima. other techniques. We're not going to mosques and blowing you up and stabbing your young girls to death. Even though I know they wouldn't be allowed at a Taylor Swift dance class. There was a case just the other day that someone was raped thinking that, you know, that person was a Muslim, but it turned out to be Sikh. So don't tell me that nonsense. In that too, it was only a small minority of that. When was the last terror attack against?

But those things are not called terror. That's the difference. It's only reserved for the Muslims with the same crime that happens everywhere across the globe, okay? And even here is only. Exceptional for the Muslims. It is spoken about all the time. All the time. It's not considered that though.

Labor politicians can't stop talking about far right terrorism. And by the way, I'm not denying it. I'm not denying it. Some of it exists. Look at the terrible example of the Australian man who shot up a mosque in Christchurch, New Zealand. I am not denying that far right terrorism exists. But I feel like you are denying that Islamist terrorism exists. And I think extremism.

No, I haven't denied it. I feel like I'm able to acknowledge the terrible traits of the Catholic Church with child sex abuse. But you're not acknowledging any wrong. No, I'm not saying I'm not acknowledging wrong. It is out of context. It is not the Islam that I know and many Muslims know of. We do not believe in that. It does not conform to the way in which it believes. So it's not denying it. That's what it is.

The sources say we all cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. You can quote all of these things. It was victorious through terror. Oh my gosh. What is the most, what extremists do? This is what extremists do. This is the best thing that a Muslim man can do. This is ridiculous.

You're saying Nerea is an extremist. Quoting that, because you are trying to be, this is what extremists do. Quoting Islamic sources make me an extremist. What does that say about your religion? In that one quote, there would be hundreds of interpretations, hundreds of different contexts, hundreds of ways you can do that. I don't know your religion, but what is the best thing a man can. Stop being contending, okay. At the end of the day.

I'm not being condescending. Yes, you are. What is the best thing a man can attain or the best way he can follow his religion? It is to die a martyr in Islam, to fight in the cause of Allah. What is Aksa Radha Kavana? What are all these people doing? Exactly the point. It doesn't mean that you have to go out there and kill innocent people.

It means if your house is under attack, it means if you are in that way. How dare you? How dare you say that is defensive? How dare you? No, how dare you? That's disgusting. You only want to see your interpretation and you think it falls on everyone else. Otherwise, everyone here would be a terrorist.

Most of the Islamic world. Most people on the watch list agree with me because they're carrying out their religion dutifully. No, that's not true. That's not true. That's absolutely not true. You can keep saying that. You can keep saying you're hiding behind context. No, you are using context for your own narrative to spread as if it's collective and it's not collected.

Well, tell that to all the extremists on the terror watch list. There's not, there's many of those terror watch lists that is not only being watched. They don't necessarily mean that they are actually there that's going to be committing anything or actually doing anything. That's why they're being watched. In different ways. I work in that way. Okay. Prevent is literally full of referrals about Islamist terrorism,

including, by the way, the most recent attack that we saw happen in Golders Greed. Yes. And that's a... And that was another failure, just like actually Rudy Kavana was. But look, I think the most important thing today is that genuinely, and I mean this, I really do mean this, I think you have, and it's not something I use lightly, I think you've both been very brave to have this conversation. and I genuinely appreciate it.

Because for Hima, I think it is brave for a Muslim woman to come on a show like this and actually be honest about what you believe your faith is against two people who have a very different view. Genuinely, I've appreciated it, and I have tried, and I hope you can see, I am trying to understand. I am trying to understand.

Even with the bias. It's very hard for me to understand. It's very hard for me to understand, but I'm trying to understand. It's a black and white thing, like how she's portraying it. That's the problem. It's not like that. And I'm not saying it's black and white.

Yeah. But I also think Nariya Khan is incredibly brave too. Because to be an ex-Muslim in this country and be prepared to speak up about it, that is really hard. There are threats against people like Norea Khan. And so I get threats every day. I was speaking to police as well. 100% from extremists, you know, from all sides. And I am not politically in that.

I am not the Muslim. But I also acknowledge what you've gone through and I do believe that yes, your voice needs to be heard and I'm not taken away from anything that anyone has done and I do not condone any of that and majority of Muslims do not condone that. That's what I'm saying. We do not blanket ban and collectively blame.

That's not how it works. And genuinely, I respect you both. I do. But for me, what's important is actually to have these discussions because I feel like the mainstream media doesn't actually want to have a debate about Islamism, you see?

And what it really means. So genuinely, genuinely. Well, it might just convert you. That's a problem. Far from it, I reckon. You need to get from it. I need to go up so fast. But no.

My stepdad is English white. Come on. I've got many members that are English white. I know. I know. And that is why I am genuinely saying thank you for having the debate. Because not many people would.

And thank you for not following your religion. That is absolutely. No, that is absolutely wrong. following it, same like a billion people that are following it. Absolutely, you know, incorrect there. Okay. Well, look, where can people, people are going to want to know much more about you after this? Where can people find you for Hima? I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook, on Instagram. I'm sure that, you know, it keeps, for Hema Muhammad. For Hema Muhammad, just Google me. And of course, Naria Kahn, you have your fascinating podcast. It's called Beyond Belief, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. And it's available on

YouTube? Correct. Yeah. I'm not on LinkedIn because of Islamists. So, yes. Really? Yes. Well, I get you, I watch it YouTube. So make sure you follow Beyond Belief with Nariya Khan on YouTube as well. And as I say, I found that genuinely fascinating. I really can't wait to hear what you think about that too. Now we're moving over now to Subset for the Royal Uncanceled After Show. So at this stage, we come off YouTube, move to our own platform to continue the conversation in the Uncanceled After Show. But we are back with you tomorrow. Oh goodness, Fahima's not going to like this. It's just one day before Tommy Robinson's massive Unite the Kingdom Rhaps. So we will be having a special show tomorrow talking about everything that you can expect on Saturday with our host, Don Keith and Lauren the insider.

So be back with us then tomorrow 5pm UK time, midday Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Remember, hit subscribe to to our channel on YouTube. Turn on the notification bell. Then you'll be alerted to our new episodes. We're also available as a podcast now too, which you can find totally free. By the way, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. But on Spotify, it is available as a video podcast. Most importantly, I promise to keep fighting for you.

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