Dan Wootton Outspoken - NIGEL FARAGE IN MELTDOWN AS REFORM UK RIVAL PARTY LAUNCHED BY BEN HABIB AS RIGHT GO TO WAR

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

SHEATH UNDERWEAR - Get 20% off with the code OUTSPOKEN at checkout https://sheath.com It’s the battle of the British right, as the fallout from Rupert Lowe’s reporting to the police by Reform UK bosses causes friction, splits and all out war between those who would usually be considered allies. Well today Dan reveals confirmation that former Reform deputy Ben Habib has taken control of a new political vehicle The Integrity Party, as his battle with Nigel Farage turns even more toxic and Rupert’s revelations on Outspoken yesterday about the Brexit king continue to reverberate. Then brilliant political analysis from Liam Halligan, who is today launching his brand new independent Substack and YouTube channel When The Facts Change. PLUS: The Sun admits Labour has broken Britain, despite endorsing Slippery Starmer to become Prime Minister. How bad are things going to get? AND: Growing momentum to Free Lucy Connolly as Conservative Party leader Kemi Badenoch weighs in on the outrage of the grieving mum being locked up for over two years for one post on X. THEN IN THE UNCANCELLED AFTERSHOW: Not content with exploiting her own children for Instagram clout and big bucks, Meghan Markle is now cashing in on Prince William and Catherine’s children Prince George and Princess Charlotte in a shocking new escalation of her feud with the Royal Family. Our Royal Mastermind Angela Levin returns to reveal all. Sign up to watch at www.outspoken.live. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No spin, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Wooten. This is Outspoken Live, episode number 205. And it's the battle of the British right, as the fallout from Rupert Lowe's reporting to the police by Reform UK bosses causes frictions, splits, and let me be honest with you, all-out war between those who would usually be considered allies. So today, confirmation that former reform deputy Ben Habib has taken control of a new political vehicle, the Integrity Party, as his battle with Nigel Farage turns even more toxic. And Rupert's revelations here are now spoken yesterday

about the Brexit king continue to reverberate. I mean, look, he is very much driven by money. I think he's driven by power. I think he's driven by influence. So I will bring you all of the latest in my digest next. And then I'm very excited about this brilliant political analysis from my former colleague at GB News when GB News was sound, Liam Halligan, who is today launching his brand new independent sub stack and YouTube channel, When the Facts Change, which we're going to be talking much more about. Also coming up on the show today, the sun admits Labour has broken Britain despite endorsing Slippery

Starmer to become Prime Minister just a few months ago. So how bad are things going to get? And there's growing momentum to free Lucy Connolly as Conservative Party leader Kemi Badenoch weighs in on the outrage of the grieving mum being locked up for over two years over one post on X. Then in today's uncancelled after show, which you know we host on Substack, www.outspoken.live, not content with exploiting her own children for Instagram clout and, let's be honest, the moolah, the big bucks. Meghan Markle, this is really gross, now cashing in on Prince William and Catherine's children, Prince George and Princess Charlotte. So this is a shocking escalation of her feud with the British royal family. Our royal mastermind, Angela Levin, is going to be here to reveal all www.outspoken.live.

Make sure you sign up. We will, of course, be revealing our Union Jackass and Greatest Britain at the end of the show, too. Lots of reasons to stay tuned. The nominees, as chosen by you, and, of course, the winner will be, too. Just vote in our live chat on YouTube. Here are today's nominees, as chosen by you. Anaïs Kassab, nominated by It's Only Me 44, of the Union Un union unite calling for more strikes across the country on bin collections and he's obviously said that he makes no apology for the birmingham

chaos and all of those huge rubbish bags across the city uh nominated by london snow 251, Karen Bradley, chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee. And this is because she says that there's no two-tier justice tomorrow. And London Snow was very funny about this. She said, apparently tomorrow they're going to announce the Pope is not a Catholic. And Rishi Sunak, haven't heard from him for a while, but nominated by David Jay. And it's because of fishy Rishi Sunak, haven't heard from him for a while, but nominated by David Jay. And it's because of Rishi Sunak's PM honours list. I mean, goodness me, it was a total disgrace, Lord Gove and a whole load of very mediocre people who did a terrible job

in government on the honours list. Let's go. So Nigel Farage has cock-a-hoot today to receive lukewarm backing from the Sun newspaper, which shamefully just nine months ago betrayed its millions of working class readers, readers who I am very, very fond of from my time as executive editor at that paper by endorsing in what I think was a disgusting decision, Slippery Starmer's communist labour. So in County Durham today, Nigel declared that Reform UK is now coming for the ruling party in the Red Wall. Ten months in, I announced today, perhaps for the first time publicly, that Reform are parking their tanks on the lawns of the Red Wall. Today's the first day I've said that, but I absolutely mean it. And we're here and we're here to stay. And the evidence is that people who are switching to us, this is not a short-term protest. They actually believe in us.

They can see that we represent those values of family, community, country. They can see that we're patriotic. They can see we want to put the interests of British people above absolutely anybody else. So those voters are here, and they are going to stay. But as Nigel texts to the centre to try and persuade Labour voters, I would argue that the party's behaviour over the past few weeks, specifically in regards to their best performing MP, Rupert Lowe, who they ended up reporting to the police, remember, in a bid for total destruction,

I think they risk alienating their base. Very interesting just looking at the ticker, the membership ticker up on screen. It was going up thousands a week just a few weeks ago, and now it's going up incredibly slowly. And that was summed up to me today by this post on X from a guy called Louis Ashdown. And I just happened to see this on my feed. He said, I got my reform membership card the other day. Here's what I've done with it. It turns out Louis is in Great Yarmouth and he has now rejoined the Conservative Party. But many people won't do that. And those people feel politically homeless after Nigel backed away from mass deportations. And the big question today is

whether Reform's former deputy, Ben Habib, could be about to fill the void. So in the past few hours, Nigel's arch rival has confirmed he has taken over control of the Integrity Party, which he intends to turn into a new conservative vehicle. Now, Ben will be here on Outspoken tomorrow, which I'm very much looking forward to, but he posted on X, there was much speculation yesterday about me having taken control of a political party, the Integrity Party. I can confirm the speculation was correct. I do control that party. I was not going to make any comment on the speculation. There is much to be done to get it fully operational, including possibly renaming it. However, I have been bowled over by the support the party and I received yesterday. We gained over 200 members and raised £6,000 without me even saying a word. I am

therefore compelled to thank you all for your support and encouragement. Thank you. I will not be making any further public comment on the party until it is much more advanced, but I can assure you it will stand without fear or favour for a proud, sovereign, independent and prosperous United Kingdom in all its parts and for all its people. Please watch this space. And Reform's former London mayoral candidate Howard Cox, who you will probably remember was forced out by Farage over his support of Tommy Robinson very recently. He's been the first high profile figure to back Khabib's new party. So when Will Moore posted on X, finally a party for the people in Britain. Now, come on, Rupert, announce you are joining with Ben. It's exactly what we need. Howard Cox replied unprompted, I have joined. Now, yesterday in this bombshell interview right here on Outspoken,

Rupert Lowe confirmed he was keeping his options open. Watch. But until my name is cleared, I think all options are open. I know that Ben has now done what he's done with the Integrity Party. I'm not part of that at the moment. I do talk to Ben. I admire him greatly. I think he's extremely clever. I think he was treated very badly by Tice, Farage and Reform.

He did an awful lot to keep Reform going when Nigel Farage left the field to make money. And Richard Tice was running the party or arguably co-running it with his girlfriend, Isabel Oakeshott. So we all did a lot to keep the party going. And, you know, I think I can't make any decisions until my name is clear. But in further evidence, the right in the UK is bitterly divided on the best part forward. Ben Habib's integrity party has already attracted visceral criticism from two former allies. So, you know, I'm presenting all sides of this argument. Let me show you.

Ex-Brexit party MEP Alex Phillips wrote, Sir Ben Habib has decided he can establish, grow and run a new political party. Let's see how that goes, shall we? And after all his slurs against Nigel, he's the sole director. Ironically, it's also named the Integrity Party. I didn't see much grace and integrity in his bitter diatribes on X that showed an absurd lack of self-awareness. It took Nigel Farage and a dedicated team decades of hard work and sacrifice to gain a political foothold. Ben is about to find out what Real Bolideak looks like. Enjoy splashing in the beginner's pool with all the other funnies. How many are there now? Heritage, Reclaim, UKIP 2.0, that other one I can't even

remember the name of. Setting up an alternative right-wing party is the new businessman's weekend hobby. They should stick to golf or tinkering with old cars. So Alex ain't holding back there. And Reclaim leader Lawrence Fox, he has said that he's currently backing the Conservatives after Habib apparently told him Tommy Robinson would not be welcome in the Integrity Party. This is what Lawrence said. I really admire Ben Habib as a human being. He is a man of integrity, dedication and commitment to the betterment of the United Kingdom. I can also understand why he wants to start a new political party,

given how unbelievably dire Reform UK are. Nowadays, I apply the Tommy Robinson test to everyone, especially if they want something. The test is very simple. Will you include Tommy in the party? I asked Ben Habib this on the phone 10 days ago. The answer was no. The last thing we need is Reform Mark 2. The original version is bad enough. We need a big tent where everyone is welcome. Although I should say the current integrity leader Richard Jay Shaw did respond to Lawrence Fox on that, saying that Tommy Robinson is a political prisoner, he pled guilty to contempt of court as civil offence, he should not be in prison, let alone spending 18 months in solitary. In regards to him joining integrity,

Tommy is a citizen journalist, not a politician. However, if he wants to join the party and participate in helping us make this country better, he is more than welcome. Meanwhile, and there's so much going on in this today, the Great British PAC has now confirmed that Ben Habib remains its chairman, but the PAC says it intends to work with parties from across the full spectrum of the British right, including the Conservatives, Reform UK, UKIP, TUV, Heritage and Reclaim. Now, as for me and Outspoken, you know I'm completely transparent about this. And I understand some of you are disappointed in my approach. But we have four years until the next general election,

and I am not a propagandist for any political party, including Reform. But I will cover all great people on the right fairly. So at the moment, my priority is shifting the Overton window on a whole host of issues, especially free speech, the threat of Islam and mass deportations. But I will not stay silent when someone on the right is subjected to lawfare and cancellation. I know what that's like, especially from their own side, which is why I am still stunned by the takedown of Rupert Lowe, especially just before the local elections. To respond now, let me bring in Liam Halligan of the Independent Substack and YouTube channel When the facts change. Liam, of course, my former colleague at GV News, also the co-host of the brilliant Planet Normal podcast with the Daily Telegraph and our very good friend Alison Pearson and business columnist in the Sunday Telegraph. So Liam, look, we're going to come to so much

GB News, your new project, the economy in just a moment. But first, I want your political opinion on this split on the right. So we have Kemi Bainanot trying to rebuild the Conservatives with Robert Jenrick. We have Nigel Farage and Richard Tice pushing hard with Reform UK. But what do you make of this new vehicle, the Integrity Party being set up by Ben Habib, who, let's be honest, is a guy who has his own following? He does indeed. I think Ben Habib's a very impressive character. And I think there's a lot of sense across politics that he's been given a bit of a raw deal by reform, by Nigel Farage. And I think there's a sense across politics that the same applies to Rupert Lowe. My general view about these things, though, is even though political pundits, obsessives like like us, Dan, with respect, we know all about these these this warfare on the right. But I think for the general public, you know, the reform, even though Rupert Lowe in particular has got a big following on on Twitter or X, as we must now call it twitter and x they're not really the

real world for the vast majority of people in this country the reform party is nigel farage or there's nigel farage and what party is he is he and now he's in reform um i don't think that's to underestimate the importance of the debate on the right, which you cover so well, it is really important, not least because you talked about the Overton window there. I think the whole Overton window of British politics is shifting, has already shifted a long way, just in the last 12 to 18 months. I think for a lot of, and this is going to bring me on to the Conservatives more generally and Kemi Badenoch know for a lot of conservative mps

you know they think the overton window of british politics is somewhere between you know ed davy and kemi badenock um but for a lot of the british public now particularly in the red wall and how interesting nigel's recent uh statements on that and indeed this poll in the sun which i'm sure we're going to come on to for a lot of the public the overton window the sort of center ground of british politics is believe it or not it's not between ed davy and kemi badenock it's between kemi badenock and nigel farage yeah um that is where the election is going to be won and lost that is where a lot of the british public now is uh the sort of silent majority of swing voters if you like they're absolutely sick and tired about illegal and legal immigration. That is no longer a taboo subject at all in Britain.

Everyone is talking about it or just a few people are trying very hard not to talk about it. Same on net zero. I think the Overton window on net zero has shifted literally in the last few weeks i think kemi badenock deserves credit for a speech she gave just two or three weeks ago that was barely covered really in which she said that net zero 2050 is quotes just impossible we should admit it there's no way the tories would have said that even six months ago. And then, of course, on many of these other issues, cost of living and so on. I mean, two tier justice perceptions of that. My dear friend, Alison Pearson, of course, her work on the Lucy Connolly case. Absolutely. And I want to talk about that.

Absolutely. So I do think, you know, you must keep covering the right of British politics. It is so important. I think I think the only reason Keir Starmer really won to the extent he did. And of course, even though he's got a big majority, it's like an inverted iceberg, isn't it? Because his parliamentary majority looks really big, but it's built on very little support only one in five of the electorate voted for the labour party of course because it was a very very low turnout just a 60 turnout a 33 vote so i think the labour party doesn't have have that much support i think the only reason starmer won is because post-covid everybody was just getting rid of the incumbents and the tories were the incumbents. They had their own problems. I almost wonder if you think that they are going to be able to outflank reform on the right as reform tax to the centre.

Like, for example, when I think about Robert Jenrick talking about the Islamic gangs that are taking over our prisons, when I think about his rhetoric on mass deportations, for example, that almost seems further to the right now than what Nigel is presenting. I think what has to happen in the Tory party is this. I think that I think Kemi's instincts are good. I think she's not so good at really expressing those instincts and shooting from the hip in public. I think she's being too cautious in many senses. I think what she's trying to do, and I totally understand why she's trying to do it,

is she's trying to stop her own parliamentary party from erupting into disunity. Because of all those Lib Dems, all of those non-Tories who should just go and join the Lib Dems. A lot of her parliamentary party, as you're suggesting now, they just beat the Lib dems in set in the southeast you know by 500 votes and they think they need to attack and be more lib dem in order to beat the lib dems again we've been through peak lib dem right the lib dems got 70 odd seats on 11

percent of the vote they're not going to get 70 seats next time nowhere near because of that massive overton window shift so if you're're a Tory and you survived in a fight against the Lib Dems, close fight with the Lib Dems against the last election, you're going to keep your seat regardless, it seems to me, unless you're outdone by reform from the right. So I think Kemi should be speaking a lot less to her own parliamentary party, worrying a lot less about her own parliamentary party. she should be leading the tories more towards where the center ground of british politics is which is actually to the right of a lot of the parliamentary conservative party if only those parliamentary conservative party

one nation tories would realize it on immigration on net zero on justice and policing on i would say the size of the state i think there's a lot of votes now um to be gleaned from ordinary working people who are being taxed through the nose and are getting really upset about it people say a smaller state isn't isn't isn't popular but every now and then in politics a smaller state is popular because it's seen as necessary. One time was, you know, when I was a lad, you know, in the late 1970s, crikey, a small state was popular then. You know, after the global financial crisis in 2010, a small state was popular. It wasn't that everybody was screaming for it, give it to us now, but they knew it was necessary. Grownups needed to come into the room and actually grab hold of

the national accounts and the public finances and put them back on an even footing. So many people across the country know we're living way beyond our means. They're sick and tired of, you know, tens of thousands of civil servants being added to the public sector payroll every single year so i do think a lot of these issues kemi needs to spend a lot less time talking to the left of her own party and a lot more time i would say talking to her party in the country the activists at least those who are left because so many of them of of course, are now joining reform, or at least they're not going to be stuffing envelopes and knocking on doors, helping the Conservatives during these upcoming...

No, there's such an enthusiasm gap, isn't there? We have... Go on, after you, Dan. Well, I was just going to say, I want to show you just a little bit of Rupert Lowe's criticism of Nigel Farage yesterday. Now, I think you agree that the treatment of Rupert Lowe's criticism of Nigel Farage yesterday. Now, I think you agree that the treatment of Rupert Lowe was terrible, but you also know Nigel Farage very well. And I just wonder if you agree with this claim from Rupert Lowe that Nigel really only cares about money. So let's just watch this together, Liam, and then I'll get you to react off the back.

I mean, look, he is very much driven by money. I think he's driven by power. I think he's driven by influence. And I think what we need is we need people who are driven by what makes good government, what effectively delivers for the British people, and what is going to change the way in which British businesses flourish, the way in which British people flourish, and actually returns the norm of British interface, which is based on free speech, it's based on total freedom,

and it's based on people being able to pursue their lives as long as they don't effectively damage the interests of the people who are around them. So I think Nigel's increasingly, in my view, in it for himself. And that's become abundantly clear to me. So does Nigel care too much about money and himself? It's the question there. Now, I don't know what's gone on between uh nigel farage and rupert lowe i'm far from a reform party insider or really an insider of any political party i've got people i know very well across all the main parties dan as you well know um so i don't know

what rupert lowe is guilty of if indeed he's guilty of anything. In terms of his talk, what he said about Nigel's character when it comes to money, that's not really how I see Nigel's character. Nigel Farage could have made, you know, millions and millions of pounds throughout his life. He's a very adept trader. He's financially, probably the most financially literate senior politician I've ever met, if I'm honest. You want to talk to him about shares, commodities, currencies. I mean, he really knows what he's talking about more than pretty much anyone I've ever met in politics. And I know a lot of people in politics who say they know lots about these things, but they don't. So, you know know nigel farrell's left uh the city left his commodity broking business

in order to try and get britain out of the european union and he did so with a with a plumb and if you support that cause then you've got to admire him for that even if you don't like his style in particular so i don't think Nigel's obsessed with money and owning it for himself. I do think he genuinely wants to change the country. And I do think he's given a lot of years of his life in order to try and do that. Again, I say that even though there's lots

I disagree with Nigel about, as you know, but he's somebody who really has put his back into political campaigning for the most part, certainly on the surface. I don't think there are many people who are better at dealing with people in debates, like public debates on the radio and television and so on, when they're really insulting, personally criticising him. He rarely loses his cool. I'm not saying he's always like that behind the scenes. And I'm not naive about, you know, the nastiness of politics behind the scenes, the backbiting, the black arts, the arm twisting, the character smearing and all the rest of it. You know, is that what's been going on with Rupert Lowe and

Nigel Farage? I don't know. And I genuinely don't know. But I don't think it's right to say that Nigel Farage, whatever criticism you may want to throw at him, I wouldn't say he's, you know, all about money. He spent decades of his life foregoing massive money making opportunities in order to campaign when it comes to politics. And, you know, Rupert Lowe is an extremely wealthy man. And, you know, hats off to him. Chapeau. I don't begrudge him that for one moment by all accounts he's a very skilled businessman and investor good for him um nigel in contrast you know he's got a family and he spent many decades not making money when he could have made money you know he's been on the front line of british politics plugging away you know since since since the early 1990s, you know, since the time

when UKIP was run by Alan Sked. And you've got to be a real nerd to know what I'm talking about then when I say that. So I don't think that's entirely fair by Rupert, though I can't assess, you know, how justified he is in being bitter when he makes that personal attack, because I just don't know what's been going on between those two behind the scenes, or what Rupert's meant to be guilty of, if indeed he's guilty of anything. So I couldn't believe it this morning when I saw the front page of the Sun newspaper, a newspaper, by the way, that I used to be the executive editor of, declare Britain is broken and include within its pages what seemed to be a near endorsement of Reform UK and Nigel Farage at the local elections. I found this particularly galling, particularly frustrating, particularly infuriating, actually, because I believe the Sun's

management and editorial team desperately let down their readers, their good working class stock, by endorsing Keir Starmer officially just nine months ago. Because let me tell you, it would have been far more powerful for the Sun to endorse Reform UK and Nigel Farage at the last election. No kidding that the disastrous policy platform that Labour put forward, especially putting the accelerator down on Nut Zero, was going to destroy the country. But Nigel has embraced this Nair endorsement. He's held up the Sun's Inside article describing him as a Nijmare for Keir Starmer today. And of course, Liam Halligan, this polling is dire for Labour. It shows that just nine months in, the vast majority of Brits feel like we are going in a disastrous direction. in the country. And I would argue that a lot of this is down to the pocketbook, right? It's down to the fact that Brits feel ourselves getting poorer at the same time as we see public services

like the bin strike in Birmingham go down the drain. You know, Dan, there have been famous Sun headlines throughout the years. And even in today's world where newspapers are a lot less important a lot less widely read certainly in print form than when we were younger when the sun really goes through it with a front page it can still move the needle it can still pack a punch uh i think back to the sun headline of the late 1970s, crisis, what crisis? Words that the Sun then put in the mouth of outgoing Labour Prime Minister Jim Callaghan. I think back to the Sun headline before the 1992 general election.

Will the last person to leave Britain please turn off the lights when it looked as if Neil Kinnock was going to win. And I think this broken Britain headline, it's so well timed and it's there's such sharp journalism behind it that I do think it could enter that pantheon of kind of, you know, historic sun front pages that really mark a kind of inflection point, a sort of important milestone in terms of British political life. Why do I say that? Look at the polling inside. The polling inside that's driven the headline is that whereas reform were on just after the general election, of course, they won. They won 14 percent of the vote in the general election just after the general election uh reform went to 18 they're now on 30 uh starmer he got his post-election bounce he won 33 he went up to 37 of the polls he's now on 28 so he's behind farage and the tories are on like 26 27

you know nigel farage the the mainstream media of which I guess I'm still just about part, doesn't like to admit it. But if you look at the likes of Betfair and other political betting sites and the betting markets, these aren't odds, as your very informed readers, listeners will know. These aren't odds that are set by the house. These are odds that reflect the way of money in the market. Very different form of odds. It's like a betting market, not like a bookmakers. For many months now, Betfair and others have had Farage as the most likely next prime minister, which is really astonishing. And yet still so many at Westminster think they can ignore him.

That's the bubble that they're in. so i actually think you know the sun better than i do i'm i'm i have a good relationship with the sun i write for the sun from time to time and i always read the sun i still think it's capable of really important journalism i still think the quality of tabloid journalism in this country is way above any other country you look at the depths of political analysis and even economic and business analysis you get in our tabloid newspapers way above the quality of other countries i'm not being sarcastic at all it just it just is and this some um uh uh political analysis i don't think this would have happened Dan um without you know News International at the very

highest level sanctioning this right um I don't think this would have happened maybe the very top people at News International took their eye off the ball when Starmer was endorsed or it was so obvious that he was going to win that the sun doesn't want to be seen to uh you know back a losing a losing horse but i do think this is an important uh move by the sun it'll be very interesting to see if they firm it up it'll be very interesting to see if the likes of rupert lowe do join the conservatives and that's something that is certainly being rumored my whatsapp um message groups are certainly talking about it and people are on those message groups

who are in a position to to know it'll be interesting to see how the sun responds to that you know the sun doesn't have the the the you know the double digit millions numbers of readers that it used to have but it still has an awful lot of political and cultural power and this is a major feather in nigel farage's cap that ahead of the local elections in which reform are likely to do pretty well even though the the local elections have been sort of gerrymandered to some extent so reform doesn't get as much of a crack of the whip as it otherwise would and indeed ahead of Welsh senate elections next year if the sun is going to carry on turning the screw on starmer and the tories by getting closer and closer to reform that will have a major impact and the sun would not do

that unless they thought farage had a really good chance of winning because that's totally right you're totally right right and i'm not being cynical at all i've watched this newspaper my entire since i was a paper boy i got into journalism because i was a paper boy and i used to read the papers i used to read the papers me too since i was a kid i've watched the sun very very closely and i've always you know i'm mainly known i guess as a sort of nerdy economic broadsheet bloke i'm really a tabloid journalist uh at heart i just like really reveling in complexity so i've got a lot of respect for the sun and i think this is the first sign that the sun believes those betting markets and believes i'm astonished we're saying this but i'm saying it because i think it's true

believes that reform is in with a fighting chance if not of winning out right then certainly holding the balance of power at the next general election i think you're totally right media people will think i'm insane for saying that think i'm morally a reprobate for saying that. I'm saying that because I'm an analyst. Yeah, no, no, no, you're totally right. But I guess where my disappointment comes in, right, is that Rupert Murdoch himself is a personal fan of Nigel Farage. He would regularly go for dinner with Nigel up until very recently.

And look, I guess for me, Liam, I can't just forgive that endorsement of Labour just like that, because we're now living through the pain of a Labour government. And that's going to be so painful for some readers. You've operated at newspapers at the highest level, right? You've been in the room when major decisions are made. There was nothing in it for the Sun when an incoming Labour government was about to take office in Downing Street. The Sun News International, they have all kinds of regulatory issues they've got to deal with. You know, they've got to have a relationship with the government of the day that isn't just sort of, you know, a standoff, pistols, you know, at dawn, daggers drawn. It was inevitable that the sun was going to back Starmer

because it was inevitable that Starmer was going to win. That's just grown-up politics. At the moment, nothing was in the balance, Dan. There was nothing in it for the sun to sort of die on that hill and just really annoy the government. Well, apart from that now, Liam, they could say, but now, well, but now, now there is genuine flux in British politics.

No one knows how it's going to go. No one knows how it's going to go. No, no, no. We are in. We all know that there needs to be some kind of if the if the right is going to beat Labour, if the right isn't going to disgrace itself in front of a big slug of if labor manages to come through even though it's annoying so many people then it has to unite in some way there has to be some kind of deal done on the right of british politics it doesn't look like a stitch up but looks as if there's some kind of thought being given to the some of the greater good rather than the individual ambition you're already seeing signs of this just hints from the leader of the opposition herself kemi is starting to say things like this at the local level ahead

of the local elections and maybe the sun wants to get in on that act maybe the sun wants to be part of that and you start by endorsing or or making clear that you take Farage seriously as the major political player that he is. Yeah, the funny thing is I know Sun readers and I know Sun readers will have absolutely no concerns about the Sun getting closer to Nigel Farage. Did they have concerns

about the endorsement of Keir Starmer? Oh my God, yes they did. Look, I've got to ask you though, while you're here Liam, about this major potential economic news overnight with J.D. Vance in an interview with UnHerd really talking up the chances of a trade deal. He said, we're certainly working very hard with Keir Starmer's government. The president really loves the United Kingdom. He loved the Queen. He admires and loves the King.

It is a very important relationship. And he's a businessman and has a number of important business relationships in Britain. But I think it's much deeper than that. So he said, thus, I think there's a good chance that, yes, we'll come to a great agreement that's in the best interests of both countries. So, Liam, what could that deal look like? And where do you put the chances at the moment? Well, since a couple of days after Liberation Day, of course, the name given to the day when

Trump announced all those tariffs, I've been predicting on my sub stack and on X slash Twitter that there will be a trade deal between the UK and the US quite soon. Why? Because Trump desperately needs a big win to come out of this current situation. Trump needs to show the world that if you negotiate and you get close to America and you do what America wants, then there are mutually beneficial trade deals with what remains the world's biggest economy and the world's easily most valuable consumer market to be done. Trump needs to show that it isn't just all about bluster and shock and awe and gyrating financial markets. He needs to show that actually what he's trying to do is use the threat of really high and the head of the Council of Economic Advisers, Steve Miriam, are trying to bring about.

Starmer also, there'd be irony, of course, if Starmer was able to preside over a free trade deal between the UK and the US, because that would only be possible because we're outside the European Union. When you're in the European Union, the European Union conducts your trade policy. And of course, the European Union has been trying to get a trade deal with America since it began life and it hasn't managed to. So there'll be an irony in that for Starmer, but it would also make him look good. Let me just explain to your viewers and listeners. I'm sure they know, but a lot of people in politics don't understand this. You don't need a free trade agreement to trade right you trade on what we call wto rules with other smaller tariffs about a fifth of our trade is with the u is with the us we are the big they are our biggest single country trading partner now a lot of that trade isn't in goods and these

tariffs only apply to goods actual physical objects a lot of that trade isn't in goods and these tariffs only apply to goods actual physical objects a lot of our trade with the u.s is in services financial services legal services media services insurance that kind of stuff britain's good at exporting that we're the second biggest service exporter in the world we are a service superpower in this country it's not just a city of london this stuff comes from all over the country i'm proud to say now trump needs a u.s to show the rest of the world there's a trade deal he's trying to do a trade deal with the indians he's trying to do a trade deal with the vietnamese he's trying to do a trade deal with the brazilians he's trying to do a trade deal with indonesia

these are really big economies uh and if he can show them look i've done a trade deal with the brits they're the fifth biggest economy in the world they show them look i've done a trade deal with the brits they're the fifth biggest economy in the world they're serious people i can do a trade deal with you too but i just need you to drop your tariffs on me then it will work really well for trump it worked really well for trump if he can do that and if his starmer can hold his nerve and with respect to keir starmer since he and his front benches have started have stopped insulting the US president personally to the extent they were they have actually done a pretty good job of holding the line and saying look we're not going to do reciprocal tariffs we're not going to freak

out here we're going to carry on talking to the Americans and try and get some kind of deal if there is a trade deal between the UK and the US, it would be an important economic story for the UK. There would be a bit of a boost to growth. There would be a bit of a boost to investment. But it would be a much, much, much more important story to the rest of the world because it would demonstrate, Dan, that Donald Trump isn't just in chaos wrecking ball mode. He's actually in negotiating mode. And that would change the global political weather for trump and that's why i think the uk currently has more bargaining power with trump

with the u.s government to form a trade deal than it has had at any time since that brexit vote vote breaking right now growing fury over the fact that lucy connelly the political prisoner in jail for over two years for one post on x on the day of the south port massacre is being punished in prison behind bars because she spoke out to Alison Pearson of the Daily Telegraph in a piece of journalism which has completely changed the way that the British establishment and politics looks at this gross injustice. Now I've been covering this story on Outspoken for months and in just a moment, we'll hear from Alison's Planet Normal co-host, Liam Halligan, of the When the Facts Changed sub-stack and YouTube. But I just want to kick off with one of my interviews with Ray Connolly, the Conservative husband of Lucy, where he really makes it clear that his wife is a UK political prisoner.

It is genuinely sick and twisted. I've spoken so much about the case of Lucy and also Julie Sweeney, a very similar woman who is a carer, a grandmother, who received a similar sentence for a post on Facebook. Now, I believe they're political prisoners. Is that how you view your wife, Ray? I think as time has gone by, pretty much so. I'd say most definitely. I think they've been really harsh on her. You know, I just, you know, I joked about it before and, oh, you'll be coming with me when we do the community payback teams and they come litter picking and painting with our teams. I thought that's what she might end up doing. I thought I had visions of her coming in painting and whatever play parks and whatever yeah no no not even you know you wouldn't even believe that in the uk in 2024 a housewife would be sent to jail for two and a half years 31 months for posting on x it is extraordinary and liam halligan one of the reasons why i absolutely love both uh yourself and allison

pearson and your brilliant planet normal podcast which is part of the daily telegraph umbrella is because and you really started this over COVID and lockdowns, you are prepared to go where most of the mainstream media, which you know I'm very critical of, will not touch. And I think Alison has really done that here because she has changed the national conversation over Lucy Connolly. This case, when you look into it, Liam, when you really dig down in the details,

which Alison did in that 6,000-word feature, shames Britain, doesn't it? I think it was journalism that changed the political weather. Alison is, you know, Alison pours herself heart and soul into her stories. She's very modest about it, but she is actually a very, very talented Normal, not me. But, you know, over recent months and years, when the economy has become really important, she has learned a lot about economics and gives me a run for my money. But she really comes into her own on stories like this,

human interest stories where there is injustice involved. She was, of course, at the centre of a political furore herself when police came to her front door in the market town in Essex, where she lives, on Remembrance Sunday, early morning, in front of all the neighbours and were feeling her collar about a social media post that she had put out a year before and deleted uh very quickly afterwards and so you know the lucy connelly case similar except for the fact that lucy connelly you know a mum uh from northampton a mum who tragically lost a child with her husband ray in earlier life a woman who is really sensitive to the idea of kids getting harmed in the aftermath of the southport murders put something out on social

media which was really pretty nasty but she realized that very quickly and she took it down very very quickly and rather than a warning rather than you know even community service or a fine the judge absolutely astonishingly has put this woman in jail for 31 months when she's got a school-aged kid when there were many many accentuating circumstances when she was getting character references from loads of other mums whose children she had been minding professionally you know mums of all different races and ethnicities you know saying this wasn't lucy this is not her character she should not be in jail and yet the judge put her in jail for 31 months it seems so disproportionate to me and I know Alison feels that the sort of judicial

system really did have its finger on the scales here um you know journalists we think really hard before we make statements like that they're very very serious statements. But in this case, was, you know, what was the state trying to make an example out of certain people who said certain bad things in the aftermath of some absolutely horrific murders of three young girls in Southport, a Taylor Swift themed dance class? Because, you know, the state at the because you know the state was saying oh it's not a terrorist related thing it's fine but they were you know the state should have said a lot more at the time about what was really happening um but the state covered it up um in some kind of mass thought control process and that's never the right way to do things and it was a it was a difficult moment in our national life but you don't bang up a mum for 31 months and you know mainstream politicians now as a result of allison really uh ramming this case

in the public's face and the telegraph did a really good job of projecting the story i thought the space they gave her um in in the paper for it the fact we've been covering it on planet normal and we'll be talking about more on planet normal when we record tomorrow wednesday it'll be out on thursday about the case uh she i think allison has really um uh re-energized among the public the sense that we really shouldn't be putting people away for 31 months particularly mums of young girls you know the mother of a family that's been traumatized by the death of a child um after after negligence um by the way a mum who's caring for a husband ray who has his own needs uh that she had been helping him to deal with his own health issues i say that about ray

with with respect of course um and so i do think that we need to look again at this case surely it's disproportionate surely it's disproportionate for a mum to be banged up for 31 months and it allison has now established lucy connelly is not being given the the kind of home leave that many other people in her position get because the the the the authorities are worried that you know she's such a notorious case now um so she's being doubly punished uh because um the injustice of her case in the eyes of so many is now being highlighted it's really important that she goes home and spends time with her daughter and her husband it's really really important and on humanitarian grounds that now needs to happen and i'm astonished that it isn't happening but i don't

think the political heat over this is going to dissipate anytime soon well it's interesting because kemi badenock became the most senior politician to speak out on this. After reading Alison's piece. Indeed. And we can show what she posted, actually. She really thought about it a lot and goes into a lot of detail. What interests me, and I was actually on the Mark Stein cruise

last week with Alison, so you're completely right. I saw how much this impacted Alison. She lives and breathes a story. Enormously. last week with Alison, so you're completely right. I saw how much this impacted Alison. She lives and breathes a story. Enormously. But Dan Hodges, the Mail on Sunday political columnist, thought it was a terrible decision for Kemi Badenoch to weigh in on this case. He accused her of jumping on a bandwagon.

I was perplexed about that because, you know, Dan is Dan is not thick by any means. Dan Hodges is a clever guy and a good writer, I would say. I don't know where he's coming from on this. I don't I don't know why he's so determined that she should stay. Lucy Connolly should stay in jail. Just talking about Kemi Badenoch, you know obviously uh she's an engineer she talks a lot about the fact that she's an engineer and she is genuinely an engineer but she's also got a law degree by the way um so she knows her way around the judicial system as well and she would not have posted that tweet without taking serious advice from people in the in the judiciary about the the extent of that sentence so it is a big

deal when the leader of the opposition puts out a tweet like that basically challenging uh the the judiciary but i think there's a sense in this country you know normally as a journalist i'd be really queasy about politicians trying to second guess the courts right about politicians trying to influence judges right that that's the sort of thing that happens in sort of tim pop banana republics right there should be a genuine separation of powers that's the sort of basis of a civilized democracy so normally as a journalist i'd be quite concerned about a politician weighing in on a legal case but i think in recent months and years, there have been some real crazy examples of two tier justice that I think it's

right that politicians are actually calling out a judiciary that, you know, increasingly seems to be revealing itself as stuff full of sort of, you know, woke lefty liberal judges. And a sort of, you know, a legal aid industry that always seems to be promoting certain causes when they're clearly, you know, going up against the sort of weight of public opinion. And as I say, this is in ordinary times. Politicians shouldn't be calling out judicial decisions,

but I don't think these are ordinary times. I don't think these are ordinary times, Dan. No, they're not. They're absolutely not. They are extraordinary times. But Liam Halligan, stand by because I can see on our live chat, we're already getting people like Mary asking the question, which I'm sure you're asked when you're out and about in the supermarket, why the heck are you no longer on GB News? So Liam, I want to talk about our time together at GB News and also your very exciting future plans in just one minute. So don't go anywhere.

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redefining comfort one pair at a time. But now back to the show. so Liam Halligan we were there on the first night of GB News together and let's be honest about it probably we had some degree of uh very mild PTSD for a number of weeks and months after because GB News wasn't like a normal media startup right nothing worked and i remember those hilarious early clips liam of yourself and gloria de pierro trying to present as like there were hammers in the background and the wrong clips would come on i know for myself like sometimes like i would think that the camera was about to show me and it would like be zooming all around the studio. I mean, it was mad, right? It was mad. But we really fundamentally believed in this mission, Liam.

And you in particular, having worked for some of the, I would argue, left wing mainstream media equivalents like Channel 4 News, we understood why it was so important for there to be plurality within the broadcasting ecosystem in the United Kingdom. But it hasn't been an easy ride, Liam. And there was absolute outrage when your departure from the channel was announced. Can you explain what happened and why you left well just thinking back to the launch in june 2021 it was a magical time really um there were some really really good people at the beginning of gb news really seasoned broadcasters you know just just to next to me there um you got simon mccoy you know one of the most seasoned bbc presenters a really smart clever journalist you got colin brazier brazier oh legend you got kirsty gallagher you've got you know really good people glory de perro labor mp back in the day but also before

that you know the politicas of gm tv my uh co-host uh and i really believed in gb news i joined gb news because andrew neill and john mccandrew uh who had previously been a very very senior guy at sky uh asked me to join gb news and because some really good people were involved in it and because you know you you kindly mentioned that back in the day i worked at channel 4 news uh but you know i would say in the late 90s early 2000s when i was at channel 4 news it was a lot more pluralist than it is now you could have a really good sort of cross-party conversation on channel 4 news even within the newsroom i think channel 4 news though i have tremendous affection for itN that makes Channel 4 News and indeed for many old friends at Channel 4 News, now has sort of just disappeared down a sort of wormhole of metropolitan opinions,

which is a shame because it's, you know, there's some really smart people work there, both in front of and behind the camera. And they're really good at what they do so when gb news came along you know i really put my back into it i made major changes in my life um in order to be part of it and i worked really really hard at it as did you dan um and uh firstly i was team teamed up with with gloria uh and we're really good friends we're we're in many ways we're from different parts of the political uh uh spectrum if you like but we've always got on very well we've known each other a long time we were both young political reporters together me at the ft uh her as i said at gmtv uh and we're actually from very similar backgrounds we're both

people from working class backgrounds the first people in our families to go to university you know albeit i i was brought up in sort of irish northwest london and and and she was brought up proudly in in bradford and i thought gloria and i had a really good show going uh obviously it was completely chaotic um you know the poor people in the gallery in your ear when you're on telly. Oh, oh, there was an interview. But now there isn't because the system, the electronics have made the guests disappear. Fill for 10 minutes, you know. Well, you know, Dan, because you've done it yourself. When you're looking down a camera for 10 minutes and you've got nothing to go to, no interviews. No pictures. No graphs. Nothing. It's just you and your co-presenter.

10 minutes. Right? You learn who can broadcast and who can't broadcast. Right? And some of us proved that we are actually really good broadcasters. It was sink or swim. And then other people who were very established broadcasters showed that they weren't actually any good broadcasting when they didn't have a welter of producers backing them up and and lots of um uh stuff in the background that you could cut to when the camera the heat of the camera was was on them so i then started a show on gb news

called on the money which was actually very very popular my. My inbox went crazy. My social media went crazy. You know, I've been on telly and in the papers for many years, and I've never been stopped on the street or by cabbies the way I was when I did on the money. It had a big impact. I think GB News needed, you know, something to do with economics and sort of cost of living, pocketbook issues in the middle of the day. The BBC used to have a show called Working Lunch, which some executives got rid of. Mainstream broadcasters have never really understood business and economics because far

too many mainstream broadcast executives are from wealthy backgrounds that you know they they they're not from small business backgrounds uh like me or you uh dan sort of lower middle class blue collar backgrounds yeah people are really intensely interested in money business and financial issues particularly you know in recent years uh and on the money got really good guests and we made really big macroeconomic calls we had a really good coterie of people who were coming on the show a lot people in the city were talking about the show uh a lot of gb new new gb news viewers were talking about the show a lot of other broadcast executives were trying to get me to leave and do something similar on their channels which i didn't do out of loyalty for GB News.

But then the day of its one year anniversary on the money was scrapped. And I wasn't even allowed to go on and sort of, you know, explain or do, you know, say anything to the viewers. It just disappeared. And that was not my choice. that was not my choice as far as i was concerned the show was never properly promoted the show was always starved of resources the show only ever had for the most of its time one producer for an hour of television uh five days a week very talented uh producer uh she was and is uh for a bit of time it had two producers most of the time it had one producer and then it was scrapped completely that was not my choice uh i think that the channel uh boss class wanted me to go off in a huff but i didn't i stuck around and i put my back into appearing on GB News pretty much at the whim of the producers, the program editors throughout the day.

And there were many, many times in the in the time after On The Money Was Scrapped where I basically kept the channel on air. They had nothing else to go to. So they'd literally throw me in a studio and I could talk about various business and economic issues. So I didn't choose to leave GB News for a long time. I didn't I didn't say that, but it is actually what happened. I didn't choose to leave GB News. It was GB News's choice, the boss of GB News in particular. And yet when I did leave, there was a sort of media explosion, a social media explosion. It was trending on on on X. Why is this guy left GB News when he's, you know, one of the best things on GB News?

So if you want to know why I left, you'd have to ask the CEO of GB News. of gb news and no one could understand it because it was at a time when gb news claimed to be moving away from maybe more of the firebrands on the station right after my departure laurence fox's department calvin robinson's departure mark stein's departure and there's me a bloke who's worked for the economist and the f. Exactly. They wanted to do Real News. I can mix it with the best tabloid journalist, Dan, as you know, but I'm also an extremely well-respected broadsheet specialist journalist, whether it's finance, business, politics. I've been political correspondent for The National Times.

I've been a foreign correspondent for The Economist. A lot of people told me that I gave GB News cachet. I gave GB News a sense that this is serious journalism. I mean, look, when I was removed from GB News, right, a bunch of MPs came to me from across the parties and they said to me, do you want us to do an EDM? Right. An EDM is an early day motion. It's when loads of them. It's like parliamentary graffiti when a load of journal MPs sign something, you know, in parliament and it gets reported. And I asked them not to because I didn't want to cause too much trouble. To be honest with you, there are various other things going on in my personal life at the time that were very very painful to me um and so I asked them not to do that but there was a real kind of massive eyebrows raised across the

broadcast industry you know what are you doing if you're getting rid of liam halligan at a time when the cost of living crisis is like a major issue um you know i was being gotten rid of at gb news at the time the bbc was appointing a cost of living correspondent totally it was it didn't make any sense no at all it didn't and it was but unfortunately and we probably do know what it's about it's about money because they want to staff this channel with very young and very cheap people and don't get me wrong i some of these people are great, right? Some of them are great, young, talented people. But unfortunately, you can never replace that sort of experience, that type of worldview, the contacts that someone like you has.

You cannot replace it. Now, Liam, there was reports surrounding the chief executive of GB News and the fact that a presenter may have had a bit of a newsroom bust-up with him on their last day on air. Is that true? No, there was no newsroom bust-up. I was constantly provoked for months and months and months um but i remain completely dignified throughout you know ask ask any of the sort of

tv producers anyone behind the scenes you know i was always really dignified and professional in the way i conducted myself um even though I was being very heavily provoked. And I'm not even sure it's about money because I think I was good value. You know, I'm the guy, you know, I'm the guy that got, you know, exclusive interviews with chancellors, home secretaries, business secretaries. You know, with all respect, I was better connected politically than anyone at GB News, as well as being, you know with all respect i was better connected politically than anyone at gb news as well as being you know obviously out on my own when it came to economics and business and you

know that in an ego is it an ego is it an ego thing i think i just think i just think the ceo anglo-frankopoulos he just didn't like people being in the room who were obviously so much smarter than he is he couldn't handle it yeah it's interesting and everyone in the newsroom knew it yeah alex phillips had said uh a very similar thing and of course she was dispatched of in a terrible brutal manner so was colin brazier and i think what's oh colin brazier what a fantastic broadcaster big time and a huge And a huge loss. A huge loss. When GB News hired him, I was like, this is incredible. And he's completely aligned to the mission. Al Stewart, Colin Brazier, you know, Simon McCoy, Kirstie Gallagher.

These are serious, serious presenters and broadcasters in their own right. And, I mean, you go on question time liam and and go totally viral and and everyone online is talking about you a dozen times a dozen times i know very very very very bizarre and i guess that the last thing i would say about it liam is that gb news tries to present itself as a family and And there's been a big sort of, you know, they need money from their viewers. And one of the ways they get money from their viewers is presenting what they do and presenting their team as a family.

And all I would say is that the way so many members of the family have been treated viciously, brutally, when, as you say, we gave up so much. We didn't need to be at GB News at the start. We gave that up because we believed in the mission. I'd just say it's not really the way that you treat members of your family, is it? It's not a family.

It is a very ruthless business. I used to be an asset manager. I used to be a professional investor, a financial investor. And one of the first things you look for any company is is is obviously cash flow. But you also look at staff turnover and if staff turnover is really high, it's not a good sign. And the staff turnover at GB News is absurd. Now, look, nothing I've said takes away from the fact that GB News is stuffed full of really good young people who've been given a start in television that they would never get a look in at the BBC or ITN or Channel 4 or probably even Sky people from all parts of the country from non-journalistic backgrounds and I will always defend GB News because it has really replenished the gene pool of British television news it's

given a lot of people a start in British television news. They learn at GB News and then they go off to the more mainstream broadcasters. And GB News has done a fantastic job. And the investors that have put money into GB News need to be congratulated for, as I say, giving more people in the UK from different socioeconomic backgrounds a start in television news, and they will now stay in television news or what replaces television news, you know, for the rest of their careers. And that's absolutely fantastic. And I'll never stop saying how good it was. And, you know, the managers at GB News included, they did a really

good job, if not with the actual launch itself, which was really chaotic. But just in terms of staff morale and engendering the idea of common purpose, we got through all that all that technological difficulty and the chaos of the launch because there was really good camaraderie. And that did come from the top at that point. Absolutely. And I wouldn't I wouldn't say anything against the management at that point, to be honest with you. But it then got to a situation where it just became really, really toxic. And I was very much a sort of bigger head in the newsroom, somebody who was, you know, a flag bearer for, you know, decent, more pluralisticistic journalism giving everyone a fair crack of the whip um maybe you know i'm i'm a i'm a broadsheet journalist but with a sort of tabloid heart as you know and you know you don't do as much telly as i've done if you're just a broadsheet journalist

and you don't write in the papers that i often write in as well as the telegraph if you're only a broadsheet journalist and i felt a real connection with a lot of gb news viewers and they felt a connection with me because they could sense this is a bloke who's done pretty well in life but basically he's a working class kid right who's who this is the background comes from i've got all the credentials exactly what universities all the rest of it yeah you know but i i'm i'm a normal i'm from a very ordinary normal background right uh and gb news viewers sense that and they sense that when i meet them and they sense that in the way i am uh and the sort of attitudes i have and the opinions that i that i express and so i did really did feel that g News, you know, having knocked about at the top of the British media industry for quite a long time,

I really felt that GB News would be finally the proper home for me where my sort of proletariat background would be a big advantage rather than something that I had to manage and sort of compensate for. I really thought that. But unfortunately, GB News ended up being run by somebody who doesn't really understand the UK, doesn't really know that much about the UK, if we're honest. And that is a problem. That is a problem. Unless you really understand the culture of a country,

then you can't really run a big media organisation, especially not something as touchy-feely as daytime television. But also the way the media works too. I mean, God, I remember my crazy conversations when the person in question would say to me, you know, Dad, I'm going to get Laura Koonsberg. You know, we're going to get Laura Koonsberg. It's just like, what are you even thinking?

What are you even thinking? You know, number one, why would you want Laura Koonsberg? But number two, she's not going to come. But look, the great positive out of all of this, Liam, is that there is a genuine media revolution coming. It's nothing to do with GB News. It's all about independence. We've seen what's happened in America. But that would have happened anyway. This media revolution would have happened anyway, Dan, because it's technologically driven. Totally. The great tragedy of GB News, right? The great tragedy of GB News, even though there are lots of positives, which I've outlined and I'll always outline. The tragedy is that we need a kind of, you know, broadly centre right broadcasting platform in this mass broadcasting platform in this country. But I don't think GB News is it. And that is a shame because the idea behind,

the original idea behind GB News, so lots and lots of regional coverage, you know, lots and lots of pluralistic coverage, but with a kind of, you know, proletariat angle to it, you know, cost of living coverage coverage all the kind of stuff that you know that we talked about in the early days of gb news a lot of that is as as now just been thrown out uh and it's not necessarily expensive to do the things that you need to do i just think the vision has gone wrong and that to me is a tragedy totally but as i say because of this and i totally agree

by the way it's nothing to do with gv news it's to do with technology actually we're now in an era lee and where people want to engage with individuals not with organizations and it's something that i've actually found massively liberating since since my exit to you you've really turned turned your life around I know you were you're in a really bad way if I can say so personally you've got it yourself I remember seeing you people like me who know you behind the scenes knew that and yet you've turned it around you've you've built this platform uh and fair play and others other others doing the same i do i do wonder you know there's going to be a shakedown right there's lots of people starting things like you've started i'm obviously starting one myself now there's going

to be a shakedown and only the really strong broadcasters who have authenticity look the key thing is authenticity it doesn't mean that they're the best known people now people will come from nowhere that would never have got a platform and the technological platforms allowing them to do that i just hope that the punters can sort of keep up because the punters are just used to turn it on the telly at the corner are they going to be navigating laptops and i mean my mum can't do that well Well, do you know what? I mean, I've got people who are now watching on YouTube, Liam, in their 80s and 90s. So I think it is changing.

And actually, I want to talk about when the facts change because this is your independent platform. You gave me the courtesy, and we can have a little look actually, of a sneak peek of your first interview, which is absolutely fascinating, beautifully produced. People can subscribe to Win the Facts Change on YouTube right now. But effectively, if you want to watch the entire thing, it's best to sign up on Substack, right,

which is this brilliant free speech platform. I'm subscribed to win the facts change. And I think what's really important for folk to know is that with Substack, it is totally focused on free speech and it gives the power to the journalist or the provider of the content, which is one of the reasons it's so important. That's right. The little clip you saw there,'s uh uh an interview i did with a guy called mike calvi mike calvi uh was by far and away the most successful western investor

in post-communist russia he lived in russia from the early 90s for 25 years uh i was a foreign correspondent in russia i knew him well um and Mike ended up in prison after a business dispute went wrong. He was then eventually released and he's written a book called Odyssey Moscow about his experience in post-communist Russia. But Substack isn't just a video platform. It's more of a writing platform, really. And what I do and when the facts change is every couple of days I do a little post about things I'm thinking about and you can subscribe now you don't have to pay to subscribe certainly not at the beginning you can just subscribe you can see that entire interview with with Mike Calvey it's an hour long uh you just go on when the facts change uh substate you can Google that and, and, and you'll easily find it. It's very, very easy for,

uh, readers and viewers to, to, to, to follow. Um, and what I do like a lot of people is I put the early part of MindsView on YouTube and then try and draw people over to Substack. But look, it's taken me a while to get to this point, Dan. Um, uh, you know, I, I started doing a podcast series, uh, off my own back, back in 2013, 2013, right, 2014, just when smartphones were coming out. And in the end, I ended up doing other things. A lot of people have been telling me to do independent media for a long time. And now I finally I'm finally doing it. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing my Telegraph column.

I've been doing that for 25 years. I'm going to carry on doing that. That's still a big part of my life. And I'll end up making TV documentaries like I always have done. I'm sure none of that will change. But what Substack does is I'm trying to build a platform that eventually people will subscribe to for money, a few quid a month or whatever it is and that will help give me the power to write what i want when i want and also to make the television that i want to if i can get enough subscribers on substack that means i can make films like the channel 4 news documentaries i used to make on financial scandals and infrastructure that's gone wrong and pensions collapsing and all kinds of things.

It means I'll be able to, you know, do investigative journalism because there's very little money for investigative journalism, particularly when it comes to economics and business in television these days. I've tried for the last 20 or 30 years to do as much economics and business journalism as I can on television alongside my newspaper columns. And you know what, Dan? I've concluded, and I conclude this with regret, mainstream television and radio, they don't care about economics and business, right?

Because they think the punters are too thick to understand economics and business, right? Because they think the punters are too thick to understand economics and business, right? Now, it's my experience. It's my experience. And I would say I've demonstrated over many years that if you know what you're talking about and you speak clearly and you don't talk down to people and you decipher all the crazy terms that are used to deliberately confuse people not only are punters interested in economics and business they really want to know about economics and business they really want to know about money you know money sport sex right these are the things that make the world go round that people are really interested and yet the media, the media for my whole adult life have really underplayed economics and

business. Going back to when I was a newspaper boy, right? I used to read the great newspaper columnists in the business sections, literally when I was 10, 11 years old, in the Sunday Times, in the Sunday Telegraph, the Observer, the Times. And they used to write these brilliant economics columns. It's why I ended up doing A-level economics. It's why when I was the first person in my family to go to university, I did economics rather than do English literature, which all my teachers wanted me to do because they thought I was a good writer.

Because it really grabbed me because I grew up in an environment, you know, an Irish dad running a tiny little business off the back of a fag packet at the kitchen table. And I knew that economics, where the economy was, where inflation was, it really made a huge difference to the mood in my house, right? And whether or not we were going to go on holiday, we only ever went on holiday to Ireland, of course, like all London Irish families. it really made a difference uh and so when i got into the mainstream media

particularly mainstream broadcasting and i i i i sensed the sort of disdainful attitude of people working in the newsroom towards economics and business i couldn't believe it how out of touch they were. And then I realised it was because most of them had trust funds, so they didn't care. They didn't care about economics and business. Don't they have to look at the price of anything? Totally. Because the talk about money was crude,

and it was business and commerce and trade. No, we don't talk about that. We talk about the arts. Now, you know, I like the arts. I like going like going to the theater i like writing all the rest of it but i also really understand that i know when i go into pubs i'm so often someone comes up to me and they don't want to fight well sometimes they want to fight they come to me and say liam what's going to happen to interest rates liam what's going to happen to the dollar liam i'm going going on a holiday. When should I change my money? I mean, just basic stuff. Basic stuff. Now, Martin Lewis has done a great job.

Martin Lewis has done a great job, right? ITV sort of get it, but he's a one-off. We need a lot more economics and business across the media. And in my own little way, I'll be doing politics on when the facts change. I'll be doing foreign policy stuff on when the facts change as well, because that's all part of me as well. But the thrust of it will be economics and business, mainly the UK, the world too, because, you know, the UK is a big trading nation. And when America catches, we get sneezes, we catch a cold and all the rest of it.

Obviously, we still do a huge amount of trade with uh continental europe but the thrust of it will be uk economics and business so if people want to subscribe subscribe for free at first and just see how you like it well liam we're getting so much feedback actually on our live chat jan law has said we'll subscribe after this uh timo uk has said liam halligan was brilliant on gb news seemed to be the only one with a grasp on economics and what will happen in the future and julie coles is dan please have this lovely gentleman liam back on again and i would absolutely love to uh liam so great to have you liam halligan dotsubstack.com if you actually want to type the address in or you can just search for when the facts change substack or on youtube uh when the facts change it's a bit harder to

search for on youtube so i'll put the link in in the description when we put this video up so liam halligan such a pleasure to have you today on everything you've been doing with your channel. You've rebuilt yourself. You're irrepressible. Fair play to you. Thank you so much, Liam. Hope to see you very soon.

Thank you indeed. And of course, Greatest Britain Union, Jackass time now and great nominations today. One Kassab nominated by It's Only Me 44 of the union Unite because Unite is calling for more strikes across the country on bin collections damn them he said

we make no apology Karen Bradley chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee nominated by London Snow 251 and that's because the Select Committee came up with a ridiculous report saying there's no two-tier, apparently. And the point London Snow made is that tomorrow they're going to announce the Pope is not a Catholic.

And Rishi Sunak, Rishi nominated by David Jay for his honours list, which, let's be honest, was full of very mediocre people. OK, let me get to the results loads of votes today thank you so much for that in oh goodness actually it's so close we've got almost a dead heat so i'm just gonna go in and check just to make sure that there hasn't been any update over the past. Okay, so we're all tied up, are we? So our runner-up with, oh, okay. So it's just, so in third place, just Rishi Sunak. And the runner-up, Oneka Sab, the Unite boss. But we do have a very clear winner, an overwhelming winner, Karen Bradley, or her two-tier police denial with 56% of the vote.

And of course, all of the Union jackasses of the week go head to head later in the week. So I'm very much looking forward to that too. Greatest Britain. This was a great choice from at Steve JJB 36 following our interview with Rupert Lowe. He wrote that he is caring about the British and our once great country and very excited, by the way, to say we'll have Ben Habib, new leader of the Integrity Party, on the show tomorrow alongside Father Calvin Robinson. But don't go anywhere because we are continuing the conversation in the uncancelled after show. www.outspoken.live is the address. And Angela Levin is up with all of the latest royal news. Not content with exploiting her own children for Instagram crowd and big butts.

Meghan Markle now cashing in on Prince William and Catherine's kids, Prince George and Princess Charlotte. This is a shocking new escalation of her feud with the royal family. Angela Levin will have all of the details in just one moment. So please do subscribe www.outspoken.live. We're moving off YouTube and Rumble now. Back tomorrow though, 5pm UK time, midday Eastern, 10am Pacific. Most importantly, I promise to keep fighting for you.