Dan Wootton Outspoken - REAL REASON BEHIND NIGEL FARAGE'S SHOCK U-TURN OVER ZIA YUSUF AXING AS REFORM UK IMPLODES

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

VERSO - https://evening.ver.so/outspoken - Use code OUTSPOKEN to save 15% on your first order. The Reform UK civil war turned into a clown show over the weekend with Zia Yusuf welcomed back into the party after just 48 hours, but critically not as Chairman, prompting Farage allies into brutal U-turns having spent two days completely trashing the guy for very good reason. So what’s the truth behind the most embarrassing U-turn in recent British political history? Why is Farage so terrified of Yusuf when others who question his authority are swiftly thrown under the bus? The analysis you won’t get from the compliant MSM in Dan’s Digest. Then top analysis from both sides of the Reform debate with Farage ally and ex-Brexit Party MEP Alex Phillips and Farage enemy and former Reform UK deputy leader Ben Habib. PLUS: Steak chain Hawksmoor faces an international backlash over the disgusting decision to evict Tommy Robinson from lunch in a decision they ludicrously suggested was not because of his political views. AND: The Keir Starmer Grindr male model firebombers will not appear in court for a YEAR, meaning the MSM silence over the intriguing story is now bound to continue. Is this another massive establishment cover up? THEN IN THE UNCANCELLED AFTERSHOW: Meghan Markle cosplays Princess Diana at Disneyland in her latest desperate bid to cover up for THAT video. We’ll have all the latest as we team up with the brilliant Royal News Network. Sign up to watch at www.outspoken.live. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No spin, no bias, no censorship, I'm Dan Wood and this is Outspoken Live episode number 244. The Reform UK Civil War turned into, and I say this with absolutely zero joy, a clown show over the weekend, with Zia Youssef welcomed back into the party after just 48 hours, but critically not as chairman, prompting Farage allies into brutal U-turns, having spent two days completely trashing the guy for very good reason. So what's the truth behind the most embarrassing 180 in recent British political history? Why is Farage so terrified of use of when others who question his authority are swiftly

thrown under the bus. He got it wrong. It plunged us for a few hours into a difficult place. He expressed his regret to me. I forgave him. I did say don't do it again, but I forgave him. And is Youssef really to be trusted? Well, look, again, I regret the tweet, right? So let me just be clear. There are reasons people say things. They may regret them later because it suits them to say they regret them because they want to come back.

I mean, you didn't invent the word, you said it, and you said it for a reason. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why. So the thing that frustrated me at the time, Nick, was that I did think that if we were going to... I thought probably at that moment the best thing to do would be ask a question about something that would be policy. But I want to be really clear that the question about the burka, as I said, on balance, look, I'm very queasy and uneasy about banning things that would be, for example, unconstitutional in the United States, which I actually think it would be. But I think we have a very particular situation here in the UK. So I would think about it very deeply, but I probably would be in favour.

So I'll tell you the real story. You won't get from the compliant MSM and my digest next. Then top analysis from both sides of the reform debate with Farage ally and ex Brexit Party MEP Farage enemy, maybe former reform UK deputy leader Ben Habib. Also coming up on the show today, state chain Hawkesmoor faces an international backlash over the disgusting decision to evict Tommy Robinson from lunch in a decision they ludicrously suggest it was not because of his political views. Charlie Kirk brings

international attention to the Islamic takeover of the UK, but the elite class here still refuse to cover the story. Well, we won't. And the Kirstama, Grindr male model firebombers, will not appear in court for a year, meaning the MSM silence over this intriguing story is now bound to continue. Is this another massive establishment cover-up? Ben, in the uncancelled aftershow on Substack, Meghan Markle, did you see this over the weekend? Cosplaying as Princess Diana at Disneyland and her latest desperate bid to cover up for that video. So we'll have all of the latest as we team up with the brilliant Royal News Network.

You can sign up to watch at www.outspoken.live. Now it's also Greatest Britain, Union Jackass time as well. You can vote for your Union Jackass in the live chat on YouTube, but here are today's nominees. Narenda Kerr nominated by the GRIFT Report for Race Baiting Online and Calling Herself an English Rose. Dawn French nominated by Barnack 1, they say they can't help themselves now. Dawn French is doing an apology just like Linneke for an anti-Jewish social media post. And Zia Youssef, nominated by Scotlanday23, resigning from the reform for a weekend. I wish I got such a celebratory response for turning back up to work every Monday. That's a very funny one So get voting now. Let me know your comments throughout the show I will read the best at the end do stick with us because of course the results of Greatest Britain and Union Jackass revealed too But now let's go

I'm sorry, no matter how much you believe that Reform UK must destroy the uni party and Nigel Farage is our only hope as Prime Minister, you cannot watch the clown show that happened over the weekend and think we are witnessing a government in waiting. The party figures who call me an enemy for pointing this out are doing you a disservice. Because if the United Kingdom is to be saved, we deserve better, we need better than grown men in this growing cult willy waving, reporting their rivals to the cops and purging the party of anyone they deem to be on the right. So within 48 hours, Zia Youssef went from saying he no longer believed that working to get reform elected is a good use of my time to announcing that he would continue to give all my time to the most important project of my life, getting a reform government elected with Nigel as Prime Minister. So that is not

normal. Can we all stop pretending that is normal and start thinking about what has really gone on and why? The mainstream media will not answer this question, nor will the corrupt and captured pro-re our own Alex Phillips who's here later because they are out and proud Farage supporters. But it's these so-called journalists who claim to be reporting the truth while actually secretly operating as part of a propaganda machine. What we are seeing exposed by the CEUs of Reform UK debacle is who are the truly independent commentators and reporters prepared to tell you the truth at all times, not just when it's politically convenient to do so. Don't forget that. Never trust controlled opposition.

Now I understand that some of you would prefer me to be a tub thumping Reform supporter, but that's not what I'm here for and it's not what I'm going to do because there is far too much to be done in this country to indulge in undying loyalties more than three years out from the next general election. Rather, I see my job as to expose the problems in the country and help shift the Overton window to encourage our politicians to be brave enough to make a difference. As you know, I also promise you no spin, no bias, no censorship at the top of the show every day. So if I was just to pretend that there's nothing to see here folks, like everyone on GB News,

it wouldn't fly with you. I wouldn't be being honest with you. So let me take you through the truly mind boggling 180 on Saturday evening from Youssef, who returned from his tantrum after being ambushed by Farage over the Burkaban. He claimed over the last 24 hours, I have received a huge number of lovely and heartfelt messages from people who have expressed their dismay at my resignation, urging me to reconsider. After 11 months of working as a volunteer to build a political party from scratch with barely a single day off. My tweet was a decision born of exhaustion. I know the mission is too important and I cannot let people down, so I will be continuing

my work with reform, my commitment redoubled. Reform has come a long way, since I was appointed chairman and has moved from start-up to scale-up. Given this, and that we have now won power at a local level, I will focus on a new role. I will be running the UK Doge team to fight for taxpayers, as well as working on party policy and representing it in the media. I will continue to give all my time to the most important project of my life,

getting a reform government elected with Nigel as Prime Minister." And then the carefully coordinated post began. You will have seen this over the weekend. Richard Tice wrote, "'Welcome back, Zia. Great news. Watch out, Reform Doge is about. Nigel himself declared, I am delighted that Zia Youssef will head up Reform UK's

Doge department. He will also assist the party with policy, fundraising and media appearances. Zia will continue to be an important part of the team we are building to fight and win the next election. That prompted Rupert Lowe to reply, this is all objectively hilarious. Now, the face saving return to the party was soon used to try and claim that critics like me had been wrong, that I'd been wrong after revealing Farage had actually secretly spent the past two months angling to get rid of Yusuf from the chairman role because of his fury for plunging the party into civil war after reporting Rupert Lowe to the cops without his permission. But of course, I was just reporting the truth.

And look at what's happened. Youssef is not back as chairman. He has lost his power. That power will go to a Faraj loyalist, probably someone like Aaron Banks, who will be announced tomorrow, more on him shortly, by the way, and by securing Yusuf to work for free before the next election, no doubt I'm told in return for the promise of a safe seat in a place at Reform's first cabinet, what Farage has most importantly done is avoid Yusuf turning on him publicly. So remember Andrew Pearce in the mail on Friday who helped start this war reported that Yusuf was already plotting revenge. He wrote Yusuf felt angry and humiliated and he said mark my words this will not be the

last we hear from him. So here's what happened, Faraj could not risk Yusuf going rogue, hence the deal to bring him back, admitting today he was annoyed with his chairman, but unlike with anyone else, he's prepared to forgive him. You know, let's be clear, I think the Z has done a great job. Under enormous pressure. Oh, and by the way, a level of abuse, racist abuse online, unlike I think anybody in modern

politics has ever had to put up with. He made a mistake, he got it wrong, it plunged us for a few hours into a difficult place. He expressed his regret to me. I forgave him. I did say don't do it again but I forgave him. Alright and actually you know he comes back after a 48-hour exeat he comes back into a very very big job it's a very important brief it links directly into what we have to do here and the first question that was asked by Patrick McGuire today and the testimony given to us by our two defecting councillors this morning and we're broadening the management team and no we look

better and stronger because of it. Would I rather those couple of days hadn't happened? Yes, but look how quickly and effectively we have dealt with it. Thank you. Now Youssef himself appeared on the BBC Today program, something he loves to do, something everyone in reform loves to do for some reason, to even try to say that he didn't care about a burka ban after all, despite deriding Sarah Pochand as dumb for raising it. Is it dumb to call for a ban on the burka? Yeah, it'd be good to actually clarify my view on that, because I think there's been a lot of misinformation out there about that. Look, I think that if I was an MP, which obviously I'm not, if I was an MP, I would think about it

very deeply. But I think I probably would be in favor of banning face coverings in public, writ large, not just the burka. But I've seen Antifa thugs threaten Nigel, threaten our employees, and attack one of his security detail and knock a tooth out it's a very threatening thing and we do live in danger of time. So still puzzled about what's dumb then was it dumb because you think it's a distraction to talk about the burka it's not central to what you hope Reform UK will do. Well look again I regret the tweet right so let me just be clear. There are reasons people say things they may regret them later because it suits

them to say they regret them because they want to come back. Yeah. But I mean you didn't invent the word you said it and you said it for a reason I'm trying to get to the bottom of why. So the thing that frustrated me at the time Nick was that I did think that if we were going to I thought probably at that moment the best thing to do would be ask a question about something that would be policy but I want to be really clear that the question about the burka, as I said, on balance, look, I'm very queasy and uneasy about banning things that would be, for example, unconstitutional in the United States, which I actually think it would be. But I think we have a very particular situation here in the UK. So I would think about it very deeply, but I probably would be in favour.

So there you go. But meanwhile, we're now in a situation where the Reform Shields are attempting to claim my reporting has been in bad faith, which is outrageous and highly dishonest given I first revealed all of the discontent behind the scenes back on April the 19th. That since Youssef decided to launch his unhinged bile at me for reporting the facts, I've discovered things are actually far worse at Reform HQ than even I had previously realised. Youssef's fury appears to be that Nigel Farage is now openly saying it's a matter of when not if he departs the job after a succession of high-profile departures

So you said allied Tim Montgomery wrote of my reporting here on outspoken on X This can now be seen to be the nonsense. It always was I was highly offended by that I made that point to Tim But you should be highly offended by it too, because you're being lied to by these people and I've got the receipts. Because the problem is that in the 48, intervening 48 hours after Youssef quit the Parsi, the Virajas admitted the truth about what had been going on and actually backed up my reporting. Take Aaron Banks. After Youssef was out, he posted, astonishing that everyone thinks they are responsible for the meteoric reform rise.

As the old saying goes, success has many fathers and failure an orphan. As he worked very hard but struggled with relationships and people, the corks will be popping in party HQ this evening. Reform will power on. But poor old Aaron Banks, who is now rumoured to be the new Reform chair, had to delete and reverse Ferrett, writing, we all have strengths and weaknesses, including Nigel and everyone that supports Reform. It's an inspirational move playing to Zia's strength. He's a brilliant communicator with the media and a genius on tech. We all have magic

moments. Doge is going to uncover the biggest scandal of the last 25 years. Then what about the Reform supporter Calvin McKenzie? Two, I love Calvin by the way, but he declared when Yusuf went Zia Yusuf has no loss. Making untrue allegations against Rupert Lowe was the last straw pleased to see him go, Reform will be stronger. But as soon as Yusuf was back, literally within hours, he wrote, Warm to you, to Zia Yusuf for having the humility to recognise his mistake and the graciousness of Nigel Farage to embrace it. Musk and Trump would do well to learn from their cousins across the pond. Richard Tice's girlfriend and Reform's unofficial spokesperson Isabelle Oakeshott said there had been problems behind the scenes for a long time, which remember is all I had ever reported. Watch. I am sure that he didn't resign

because of the Burka question. There's been stuff going on in the background for quite some time now and my take on it is that it's really, really difficult and in fact virtually unheard of to go from zero political experience and see a use of had when he became chairman of reform. And I want Alex Phillips who's here in just a moment, she agreed. I mean perhaps it is good for reform because certainly a lot of people, especially over the Rupert Lowe thing, became very critical of Zia Youssef, very concerned about quite the effect he might be having on the party given the reporting of Rupert Lowe to the police. I mean I've obviously got lots of friends within the party so I hear things that perhaps other

people don't hear. And so perhaps actually it's a bit of who will rid me of this troublesome priest and now they can move on harmoniously. Even the Times newspaper reported, behind the scenes, Youssef had been increasingly sidelined recently. He has had some functions taken away from him to focus on leading an anti-waste unit for councils known as DOJ. There has also been growing unhappiness with the chairman among staff in reform headquarters. So there you go. This isn't coming from me, this is being confirmed by Farage allies. But now, because I refused to swallow the propaganda and wanted to pledge the truth to you about Farage's desire to drive Yusuf out for weeks,

somehow I'm the bad guy. As World by Wolf posted, Reform supporters in the media are either deluded or overt propaganda agents that they are actually trying to spin that Zia Yusuf's resignation comeback was all part of a grand plan and Farage is playing 4D stretch. Yes, TalkTV and GB news are insufferably captured. Now let me repeat, it's annoying I have to repeat it, I'm not a reform hater, far from it, I voted for reform, I was the first to predict Faraj will be PM in 2029, but I am deeply concerned by the direction they're going in. Indeed in their major MSM interventions over the weekend, both Faraj and Tice decided to lean into the identity politics issues when most criticism of Youssef began because of his appalling and inexcusable decision to report Rupert Lowe to the police for hurty words.

And I think he just needs a period just to think, what am I going to do? There is no way that his commitment to this isn't where it is. He just, look, let's be frank, he made a mistake. He went over the top, he made a mistake. But I do think, and I'm going to say this again, because it matters. Had this been, let's say, a black Labour MP,

who'd been subjected to the kinds of things that Zia has to put up with every single day. Oh, it'll be number one or two on the BBC 10 o'clock news. But because it's reform, it gets ignored. But it really has been pretty nasty. And I just think he snapped. Who's it come from? Well, the interesting thing about it and where he's really made a mistake is if you look at the nastiness, most of it comes from a non, and I think that most of the country... But does it come from the left or the right?

I think it comes from the very hard extreme right, and I have little doubt about that. They're Indian bots, someone's paying for it to happen, I've no idea who it is, and, you know, I've said it before, I said, Zia, don't read the Blumin stuff. But he does, he did, and this really was the result. It's very often that, sort of not surprising, that you're just pushing on at pace and you sort of, in a sense, don't realise just how demanding it is and the pressure and the politics

and I regret to say that Zia had received horrendous online abuse which was just appalling and you know this does take its toll. Where's that coming from that online abuse was it in the aftermath of the Rupert Lowrow is it reform supporters that don't like Zia Youssef for whatever reason who are these people abusing him? Wherever it's coming from, it's horrid, it's vile and I'm very sorry for Zia but politics, it can be an awful game and some of that abuse is just awful and I just hope it stops. Now the line coming from GB News presenters like Kamila Tomane is that despite the fact

he's already appearing in preferred Prime Minister polls in the Red Wall, Rupert Lowe is just an irrelevance. And then I kind of got wind that he was finding a lot of the discussion around Rupert Lowe problematic because whenever the low wow is mentioned, he gets a load of abuse. I actually wasn't going to ask him about Rupert Lowe. Interviewed the guy twice once for us here, once for GB News. He didn't make the best fist of it and no one's talking about Lowe. You know he did go from Rupert to Hooperth. So I have sympathy however I will say this I think the manner of his departure is very petulant.

Rupert begs to differ with you, Camilla, writing this weekend's E! Youssef is back in reform. I have never been more convinced that we need a credible alternative to the utter shambles that is Reform UK. I am working on that and will have more news to share soon. that and will have more news to share soon. And in response to GB News leaning into the idea that Yusuf quit because of online abuse, Rupert added, he tried to put an innocent man in prison on false allegations. He received online abuse? If he had his way, I'd be behind bars, locked away from my family. I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for Yusuf to be brutally honest. Neither do I. Frankly, I'm not going to lie to you, I believe the return of Zia Yusuf to Reform UK is a major mistake. Now, Alex Phillips and look, this is obviously very awkward, isn't it?

Because you guys, Aaron Banks, Isabel Oakeshott, are all really revealing what's been going on behind the scenes, and then all of a sudden this guy is back. Yeah, I mean, look, there were tensions behind the scenes, that then all of a sudden this guy is back. Yeah, I mean, there were tensions behind the scenes. That's very evident. And, you know, there are tensions in all sorts of workplaces. And if you want to find a workplace where you get egos clashing and tensions more than any other, it is politics. But I know Zeir, I've met Zeir a number of times.

He's extremely intelligent. We chat all the time. I like him. He's extremely personable. Perhaps he wasn't the right fit to be party chairman. I do think that the online abuse was pretty horrific. I do think that there were massive mistakes made over the Rupa Lowe saga. But if he's there saying, look, I want to be part of this project, I want to make amends, I want to get on and play my role in forming the next government, then brilliant, because T'er is human, and actually redemption and inviting people back into the fold and forgiven is extremely important,

and they show signs of good character. So actually- But it wasn't good character, Alex, though. It was not good character, though, was it, for him to brief to Andrew Pearce in the Daily Mail, who caused a lot of this issue in the first place with his interview with Rupert Lowe, that this wasn't the last you were going to hear from me, I'm going to blow the whistle. I mean, come on, he's effectively made a threat to

Reform UK and that has seen him be allowed to be back in because Farage didn't want him as chairman. That much is very obvious. Otherwise, he would have come back as chairman. I'm not speaking on behalf of Nigel. I don't know the conversations that have happened. I don't know about this briefing to Andrew Pearce either. I just wish everyone would stop briefing, stop putting things online, stop washing dirty laundry in public

because it's really unedifying and quite frankly, utterly stupid and baitish. And anyone who goes in that route, look, you and I left GB News. I haven't sat there like a sad keyboard warrior attacking GB News ever since my departure because I'm an adult, because you move on in life. Sometimes things don't work out. And I think there's so much that has played out now is really quite, you know, just ridiculous.

Before the world of social media, there were fallouts in political parties. There were clashes of personalities. There were disagreements as there are in offices up and down the line. It's this idea that people want to play it all out and their ego drives them to want to sort of garner support and have the last word. Get down and just take care of yourself.

Because if you're living in that world, then you're following every single tweet and looking like an online bunny. Totally get that. But you understand from my point of view, right, that I feel like I was reporting the truth. Then all of a sudden, once he's gone, a whole load of Reform UK insiders admit that what I was reporting was the truth. And then the moment he's back, Tim Montgomery comes out and says, Dan Woodham was lying. I'm like, OK, well, was Alex Phillips lying? Was Isabel Oakeshottie lying? Was Aaron Banks lying?

Was Kelvin McKenzie lying? You see what I mean. I just believe that my job in all of this is to report the truth. And clearly, there have been. I'm not saying you have multiple. Multiple things can be true at the same time. It can be true that there might have been arguments

and disagreements and personality clashes in head office. It's also true that Zia Youssef suffered a horrendous torrent of online abuse. It's also true that he's a very bright and convicted young man who is a great asset to a party. It's also true that he wasn't experienced in politics before and as much as people might have eons of real world experience, politics is a way of living and a way of operating in itself that nothing prepares you for. All of these things can be true simultaneously, we don't have to look for some sort of bigger conspiracy theory. Okay, Bin Habib, I'm sure there's a lot you want to pick up on.

Actually, there's not much I want to pick up on. I thought you did a brilliant exposition at the beginning and Alex has made a good fist of defending the position. I suppose the only thing I would pick up on is that there is a track record with reform that when it falls out with someone, including myself, Rupert Lowe in particular, and dozens of other people who have been set aside, with whom I campaigned shoulder to shoulder, dare I say it, to help put the party on the map while Nigel Farage was in the jungle. It's typical of reform that when someone parts company with them that they suffer ad hominem attacks and, you know, Zer Youssef was no example. It's almost as if there's a kind of pack of wolves

that scent the blood and they just come straight out after it. And for me, it's not really about Zarei Yousuf, this whole thing. For me, what I'm interested in is what are the symptoms in the organization itself? Well, not the symptoms. What are the symptoms of Zare used to resigning and then coming back? What are the causes of those symptoms? What is it in reform that perpetually condemns it to being a bit of a circus? Why is this happening? I mean, I've got my own theory on that, and I can expound that theory. You've probably heard it before. But why is it that these big egos, these fantastically big brains and

so on can't behave with the, with the modesty and professionalism that you get in just about every single business with which I've ever dealt with in my life? You know, basic common courtesies and mannerisms and the methods of engaging with each other seem not to exist in reform. And I And I just find that really peculiar. Well Alex, today, today, in this, I'm sorry, you come in Alex. You talk about professionalism and modesty, you're probably the worst person for obsessively dedicating your life to attacking Nigel Farage and attacking reform. So you're not deputy leader anymore, you're left, move on. I mean it's people like you who actually seem to exacerbate this desire to turn

everything into a circus. Reformers are just getting on with being Reform UK. You're the one who's sitting there constantly prodding the bear and trying to get attention. It's really quite disturbing, Ben. I used to think you were one of the most brilliant people. You were such a great asset to politics. I have so much affection for for you as you know, but you should read the comments under your own posts because people are beginning to think you sound bitter and twisted. So for you to sit there and start making that same allegation against other people, I think you need to have a look in the mirror. Everyone, look, people fall out. There are disagreements in politics. It's a rough and tumble game. There's a clash of egos. People who have been very successful in

business suddenly go into politics and realise they're the monkey and not the organ grinder because it's a team sport, because it needs to be collegiate. And it's all very well using but while all these attack dogs are like, look at you, that's what you do. I managed to not involve myself in any of it. I will do my work and I will talk about politics, but I don't start going, Ben, this, Rupert, that, nyeh nyeh nyeh. Since you've absolutely proven my point, I was making an argument about reform

and what we see coming out of reform. And what you've done, Alex, is actually just evidence the fact that you're incapable of having a debate without attacking me personally. I was saying that. And my criticism is that you're behaving like children by coming up with attack dogs online. Well, I think it is childish. I think it's very childish of Aaron Banks to come out. Because you look at my timeline and I don't do any of this stuff because I'm an adult.

Of course you're an adult and I'm very pleased by the fact that you're an adult and that you recognise yourself as an adult. But the point here, and it's a point that goes back to two fundamental issues I had with reform, and to the extent that I comment on reform, it is these two things that trouble me the most. It's not about Zia Youssef, it is about Nigel Farage, and I'll come back to that, but it's not about Zaya Youssef. It's not about, it is about Nigel Farage, and I'll come back to that, but it's fundamentally about two other things. It's about the fact that the party doesn't seem to have a settled political philosophy. It pivots from one issue to another, depending on where it sees the media attention is likely to settle, where the media would be,

you know, most courted, certainly for the base that reform is trying to court. That's the first thing that I find. So it's got no political philosophy on which you can hang your hat and from which you can predict how reform would react. And I think the Burka question is very good example of a party which bangs on about multiculturalism, in my view, correctly,

but doesn't have a settled, almost immediate answer to the burka. And then the other thing is the other issue that I've been campaigning about, and which actually nearly prevented me from joining reform in the first place, is that it doesn't have any form of democratisation. And by democratisation, what I mean is, including things like checks and balances, processes through which the organization can govern itself. So for example, and the question that Sarah Potchin made in parliament is a good one, a good example, I mean, how is it that a sitting MP could ask a question in parliament, which was so offend the chairman, and how is it the chairman could

then put out a tweet in the way that he did. It's not about Sarah Potchin per se, it's not about Zia Youssef as a human being. I watched the full Farage press conference today and in fairness, he was asked about this sort of issue by the media because they were also saying, well, who's going to be your first minister in Wales given the Senate elections the next year? And Nigel was very honest, actually. He said, look, we're just not there yet as a party. We are still a growing movement and we're not there yet. And I actually thought that was a really honest answer. However, Ben, I do have to ask you about this over the weekend because Nigel actually said that your departure was specifically in relation to Lee Anderson coming into the party, which he said you didn't want to happen.

Watch this. Ben Habib basically vetoed Lee Anderson from joining the party. So it really became, does Lee Anderson join or does Ben Habib stay? So that was why he went. But what Basil the Great said on this, Ben, is Lee Anderson joined reform in March 2024, Ben Habib left reform in November 2024. What is Nigel going on about? So did you have a problem with Lee Anderson, Ben?

And was that all connected to your departure from the party? We did absolutely have an internal debate in reform as to whether or not Lee Anderson should join the party, and I thought that he had loosely used the word Islamist. You know, I think one has to be very careful in one's choice of language. And I thought that he had misused the word Islamist. And I find the man to be a bit of a thug, frankly. And I was not in favor of him joining. But after a long debate, we agreed that he would join. By the way, also, the other problem I really had with Lee Anderson was that he had

accused me of seeking to induce him into joining reform in the first place through offering him money, which was a complete falsity. This is something that goes back to 2023, September 2023, I think, by memory. It's something that you'll find on my Twitter feed because I had to explain precisely what happened. So he is, in my view, not a first-class candidate for reform, and we did have an internal debate.

But let me be utterly clear. When that debate was settled, and it was decided that Lee Anderson would join, I made no further fuss about it, and my leaving the party had absolutely nothing to do with Lee Anderson. And I did a video on the 28th of November when I resigned from the party, setting out all my reasons for it, and there were plenty of reasons.

None of them referenced Lee Anderson. Nigel Farage, I mean, I don't know what Nigel was on about, but that was a complete lie that I vetoed him. I didn't veto him, we had a debate and in the end we came to an agreement that he would join and it's a complete lie that I resigned on the back of it. It's also idiotic because Lee Anderson had been in the party I thought since February, maybe it was March officially that he joined, but you know February 2024 and I didn't resign till November 2024. Okay thank you so much for clearing that up. Developing today a growing backlash over the steak chain Hawksmoor which decided to evict Tommy Robinson and his friends from their central London branch for absolutely no reason, but

then claim, oh, this wasn't a political decision at all. You can imagine how much consternation all across the globe this story has received, leading to Hawksmoor now being branded Wokesmoor with internet memes saying we don't just serve steak we also judge you on your political beliefs. Now we're going to get analysis on this from Alex Phillips and Ben Habib in just one moment but first Tommy Robinson has now documented exactly what went down at the restaurant. It's fascinating and horrifying in equal measure watch. Yeah, yeah. Is it because of the colour of my skin? No, no, no. Is it because of the colour of his skin? We've got members of staff. We like to look after our people, as I'm sure you can understand. Our CEO Will, obviously, if you've got any questions about him,

you can email him directly, because you'll know what to do. Yeah. I'm going to go to a meeting. This is the biggest one we've had. Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Here, get another one. Thank you.

I mean, you can see they were absolutely shocked as you would be. They weren't drinking. Actually, lots of punters had come up to them within the restaurant. There was no bad behaviour going on. And so Tommy Robinson decided to approach the desk to try and find out from the major D what was really going on. I'm not being discriminated against, am I? No, if you were drunk and disorderly, we would say, gentlemen, head your way outside, our staff are not comfortable serving you. I would guess they're not comfortable being around you. I'm not drunk, I haven't had an alcoholic beverage. No, I'm aware this has got nothing to do with politics or anything like that. What's this to do with it?

It's just that you're too. Also, to let you know, I'm a job inactive, so any footage you use, I will be in more time. That's fine, what's a jobbing actor? That's a joke, but... Oh, okay. But what, I don't understand, so when you say, because I'm, is this... But gentlemen, it's not gonna change the outcome.

Oh, okay. I'm really sorry about that. Okay, that's fine. I hope it's not inconvenienced. It has inconvenienced us. We've just sat here waiting for our food. We've been in... I'm so sorry.

But what I wanna understand is, what reason? What's the reason why as I said? Your guys have just shook my hand to have asked for photos sure So I have a duty care to those people do you have a duty care to me as a customer Yeah, but you're no longer a customer because you're making the way I could you've answered But you were doing care for them. Why don't we say to him if they have a problem? Why don't they leave because I come in here regularly if as I said before I know you've asked us, but you've got to do the care for them. Why don't you say to them if they have a problem, why don't they leave? Because I come in here regularly. As I said to you before, and I know you've got a copy of our CEO's card,

and he said if you've got complaints... And is it your CEO who made this decision? You'd have to ask him that. He's more than... A minute ago you said it's got nothing to do with my qualities. It's got nothing to do with your qualities. So why am I being asked to leave? It's really about hospitality and our jobs to our staff and our customers.

Your jobs to the customer, I'm a customer. You've got five people, we're all customers. And you're hospi- Tommy's keeping his head there, he really is. I mean, I would be absolutely furious in his situation. He did eventually leave watch. When you said, you said your thing, your duty is for hospitality for your guests. did eventually leave Watch. I'm going to change the address. I know you're wanting answers from me, that's why I've given you... Would you want answers if you sat down? You haven't given me one answer.

That's why I've given you my boss's email address. He said you're more than welcome to engage with me. He is more than welcome to engage with you. However, for here and now, I have a restaurant full of people who have gone to the capital. So I thank you, and I'm very sorry, and I hope it's not inconvenienced you too much, as though it would be. You're telling me that it has. I'm very sorry about that. But for now, I'm going to have to ask you to stop me and wait till you're done. We're leaving. I find it outrageous. I think you would as well. I understand. You are discriminating against us.

No, I understand. You're not very happy about that. Can we confirm then that we've been nothing but nice since we've come in here, to your staff? No, you've not been anything but pleasant to all of us. There's not been a complaint? No. No, so there's not been a complaint, okay? Thank you, sir. Okay, no problem. I hope you enjoy the rest of your time.

I talked more on Airstreet. I find it outrageous. I think everyone, lots of people, I know they're customers because two of them took photos and people, multiple people shook our hands since we've been in here. And all the staff have been very pleasant and nice. I find that insane, no? Now what was so appalling about that is that as soon as the backlash begun, rather than standing by their decision,

Hawksmoor tried to claim that it had nothing to do with politics. A statement from their CEO posted on X went viral after they wrote, Our focus is always to give the best restaurant experience to the most people possible. On Thursday, a public figure was asked to leave one of our restaurants because guests and staff felt uncomfortable and had complained. The party left peacefully and politely on request. This was not about politics or beliefs. Hawksmoor is not a political organization,

we're a group of restaurants. We want to welcome as many people as possible, regardless of backgrounds or views, to our teams or as our guests. We're not trying to engage in a public debate. The team has had to deal with a huge amount of fallout from this, some of which is quite concerning. We would like to get back to focusing on looking after those people and our guests. Thank you to them and the many who have been so supportive, Will Beckett, co-founder and chief executive of Hawksmoor. But Tommy responded directly to Hawksmoor, writing, how can you say it's not political when your staff or guests issue could only have been with my political views? I'll be honest though, I don't believe it. Your staff

were great. Other patrons were taking photos with us and shaking our hands, so this version just doesn't stack up. There's a lot more video footage to come, which blows this statement apart, we're working on the whole story now, so this is only just getting started. But the most worrying thing to me, if there was a group of Islamist extremists in there, you wouldn't have asked them to leave. It's only ever the people that are easy to discriminate against that get discriminated against, and that's got to stop. Everyone's bored of this woke ideology. But either way, restaurants and businesses should not be political.

We weren't loud, aggressive, or inappropriate, so this can only be my politics. Not only that, but it wasn't just me you unfairly asked to leave, it was my friends and colleagues. Will, I've asked for a conversation, let's talk and address the issues together rather than you just putting out nonsense statements and making it worse. And just to be sure, this doesn't have anything to do with the fact your mum writes for the Daily Mail. Now, being totally honest, I don't think it has anything to do with that. She's not a major Daily Mail columnist, but you never know. Obviously that's in regards to the fact that

Tommy Robinson's latest legal battle is against journalists working for the Daily Mail. But of course, rather than actually try and just defend what's right in this case, which is that any law-abiding citizen should be able to eat wherever they want to in this country without the risk of being kicked out. The mainstream media are loving it, are luxuriating in this. Take this call between, I think, Plant and Sheila Fogarty on LBC. He is quite happy to go out and make people that aren't of a British heritage feel uncomfortable and hated and wanted and stir up hatred. And then he wants to go and have a quiet meal and be left alone and be not recognised and not be held accountable for his actions in the past.

Not in my restaurant, no way. You know, that man, you live by the sword sword You die by the sword and you reap what you sow So if you want to be a hateful racist git well Then you reap those benefits and that will be in all of your life as far as I'm concerned I I agree with you that he has clearly declared who he is I agree with you, but not everybody agrees with us Alan. They can disagree But I'll tell you what in my restaurant it wouldn't be in it It'd be wearing it, you know?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword, and that's my view. Oh, wasn't that just hilarious? Sheila Fogarty. Oh, Alex Phillips, way to begin. I mean, this is tyranny, isn't it? I mean, look, it's, well, I'll tell you what it is. It's corporate woke-ism,

which is just the most ridiculous tangle of nonsense and jargon. The fact that he kept calling him gentleman, gentleman, such a weird way to address people. And so I actually, you know, I'm not going to be honest, I actually felt a bit sorry for that guy. I don't know the backstory of what went on here, but you could see he was clearly not his choice. He was politely polite. Yeah, he was. And we don't know what's going on, which members of staff will guess it. I don't want to eat here if he's here, me, me, me, me. Because that's what we've become as a society now. This divided, you know, you've seen BLM in America, where they

go over and start shouting at white people sitting outside for crying out loud. And look, just to put things in a sort of interesting context, at the moment, I'm trying to deal with my local pub because someone smashed into my car, which is part opposite the local pub. And I said, your CCTV covers where my car is. Can I have a look so I can get the number plate? Can't do that. GDPR. You're not allowed to look at the foot speed.

You know, all of this stuff. I'm sorry, we'd love to help, but actually we can't because we've got to protect what? We can protect the number plate of the man who's committed a criminal offense. But again, it's a, it's a part of this community though, is there no community that means the problem. They, and, and you know what restaurants and other industries live in fear of their staff, making some sort of complaint saying I've been discriminated against, I didn't have a safe space.

My mental health being affected. There's so much junk legislation in that regard that most entities now are really frightened to make any sort of decision for themselves, even if it's a common sensical one. And you kind of have to wonder if this was an independently owned pub, then right, you know, the proprietor gets to choose who they have as a customer and not because they don't like your your political views get out or I love you Tommy the drinks are on me but when you've got these corporate chains particularly within big cities it's just a sort of fluff and a patch-up job to try and avoid any sort

of disharmony or any sort of risk or litigation or sort of negative publicity so I mean that's what I put it down to is it because of this political views yes there have been guests no doubt or members of staff said oh my, oh my god, it's Tommy Robinson, I'm going to quit. Well, I'm not. I can see them standing in the kitchen and I go, I'm going to leave unless he leaves. I'm going to quit. I'm going to hand in my notes. I'm going to put it on X. I'm going to put it on Instagram. But bosses need to stand up to that bullshit though, don't they? That's the point, like, rather than... Yeah, because the corporate problem prevents them. Yeah, I mean, Ben Habib, you're a businessman, very successful businessman.

I just wonder if you're looking at this from a strategic point of view, if this has now been a disaster for Hawksmoor. I mean, honestly, this has gone mad. Like, so look, this was my post on it on X-Rite. I wrote, I used to love your restaurants, never again. We're meant to be a free country. You're adding to the tyranny. Shame on you. And I just checked it.

60,000 likes, 10 million views. I mean, this has got Hawksmoor publicity for all the wrong reasons, surely? It has. And I mean, I think at the heart of all of this is the regulatory and legal framework. It's not a social fad wokeism. It's something that is government legislated through the Equalities Act, the Companies Act, various regulatory bodies that require those that they regulate to promote and protect and celebrate minority ethnicities, minority religious beliefs. And in this progressive discrimination, what has happened through our country in every institution, businesses, educational establishments, the armed forces, public services,

etc., is effectively reverse racism, which of course is racism itself, which is racism against white people. And it's something that we need to be repealing. We need to get rid of all these regulations and all these laws which have introduced, legislatively as I say, racism back into society. And it was self-evident, I think, from the video you showed that Tommy Robinson and his mates had not behaved badly at all. Not at all. And if they were peaceable in eating their meal, then I think it's an affront to just civil society to eject them from the from the restaurant because of their

political views and the man on LBC who kept saying live by the sword die by the sword I think it's ironic really because Tommy Robinson I don't know Tommy Robinson by the way but I've never heard him advocate violence he is a free speech proponent and to use terms that are overtly violent, live by the sword, die by the sword. All Tommy Robinson, as far as I'm aware, wishes to do is to have the ability to speak his mind without fear or favour about the issues that concern him in his community, in his country. By the way, you're very right to point that out Ben, because he is probably subjected to more death threats than virtually any public figure in this country, yet the left, as you say, more than happy to use that type of language. Tommy Robinson has actually traveled to the Bahamas over the weekend to sit down with Patrick David, one of the biggest US podcasts. I can't wait to watch it. I actually

love PBD. And I was chatting with Tommy earlier, he said the interview went incredibly, incredibly well. And PBD has now posted on X free Tommy Robinson, love him or hate him, his message needs to be heard. So that is quite a coup. And then there was another coup as well with Douglas Carswell, the former UKIP MP appearing on a podcast saying that he supports Tommy Robinson. He posted or he said on this podcast, sorry, what does it say about society that the lad from Luton was closer to the truth on the grooming gangs than anyone else? When I heard he was thrown out of this restaurant, boy it makes me on his side. Don't ever set foot in that restaurant again. He's the only one saying what needs to be said. And one interesting update on our story last week

which was about Aunt Middleton who had been rumoured to be the Reform UK mayoral candidate for London at the next mayoral election speaking out in support of Tommy Robinson. Well, Howard Cox, the former London mayoral candidate for Reform UK, has weighed in on that. Warning, hi Aunt Middleton, good luck mate. I was threatened with expulsion by Reform HQ if I showed more support for Tommy Robinson, which is why I resigned from the party after standing loyally for them in two elections. I then visited Stephen in prison and realised my decision was correct.

He is not only inspirational, he is right. Breaking today, former Luce Women star and ex-Muslim, Saira Khan has threatened to quit the UK if Nigel Farage wins the next election with reform. So I wonder if there's going to be a whole load of people celebrating actually. I wonder if not because of Saira specifically, but if a whole load of lefties maybe throw Yasmin Alibiye Brown into the mix. If actually, there'll be a whole load of support growing for Reform UK as a result of this, almost like the same phenomenon where Trump was elected in the UK and Americans managed to send over Rosie O'Donnell and Alan DeGeneres to these parts. So this is what, well actually we'll get analysis

from Ben Habib and Alex Phillips in just one moment on the Superstar panel, but this is what Sarah Khan said on the Jeremy Vine show. You can win an election just on Culture Wars, Trump has just done that, so let's see. It doesn't last, it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. You'll get people moving out of the country. If reform come in on this kind of propaganda, I will leave this country. Where will you go? I'll go to Portugal. I'll go anywhere.

It's better than living here. Alex Phillips, famous last words. What do you make of the fact that these lefties, these lefty celebrities have just not learned that that type of rhetoric just doesn't work? It didn't work in the US for Trump, and the vast majority of them did not quit. Well, it's the latest fad, isn't it?

To say, I don't like who's the, you know, who's the prime minister, so I'm going to leave. I don't have a president, so I'm going to leave. I mean, it's as if the whole country is going, wow, we better not vote reform now because she's going to leave the country. I mean, it sort of suggests a very sort of inflated regard of somebody's own significance in the sort of prism

of an entire nation. But it's just stupid, isn't it? It's just banal. It's ridiculous. But what is interesting is how many people have left the country because of Sarkis Tharva. I mean, that's actually a real fact. You've got an exodus of millionaires and successful people

and business people who actually have packed their bags and gone as a direct result of government policy. I mean, what could be an interesting turn up for events is if reform does form the next government, and if there are people who are concerned that they're actually going to grab the nettle and start dealing with some of these issues of integration, then you might

suddenly find willing departures from people who never intended to make a life in Britain as a Brit, who wanted to live in a force-fielded enclave of their own monoculture, who don't like British values. Perhaps they might say, actually, we're not going to get away with it anymore, and they will leave. and that might be something that people celebrate but this is just You know ridiculous tokenist rhetoric Which you know it to be honest it shines a light on the sort of person She is if she thinks that people are going to be up in arms about her saying if reform forms the next government

I'm going to Portugal. What does she know about Portugal? Portuguese politics. Because what you might find is this wave of populism has very much deluged most of the continents of Europe. Well indeed, that's the thing. I mean it's hardly like you're going to escape extreme Islam, is it, in Europe? I think what is quite sad for me about this Ben Habib is that actually I always thought Sarah Khan was one of those reasonable lefties because she was pretty brave in terms of admitting why she had moved away from her Muslim faith, for example, because she didn't like their treatment of women and she didn't like the fact that they were not supportive, that she was in a relationship with a white man

She went public about that. She faced a lot of pushback from extreme Islamists, but then when I hear her say something like that, I'm like, oh You're just being as extreme as anyone else because I mean actually if there's one thing that we've spoken about most on this show It's that Faraj is certainly not extreme these days on anything. I mean, what struck me out of all of that was Jeremy Vine saying that Trump won the election in the US on the culture wars. And this has struck me as particularly peculiar with the British establishment and indeed Western governments across the West is that they regard the culture wars as something that is unimportant, a distraction, the thing of

adolescent politics. In fact, the culture of a nation is fundamental to its ability to be economically prosperous, for it to go forward in a coherent way, its preparedness to defend itself, its ability to be confident within itself, and so many other things. Culture is a critical component. A homogeneous, settled culture is a critical component of nationhood,

of the ability of a country to go forward in any shape or form. And politicians should actually recognise, in my view, that the economy should serve three things. It should serve the constitution of a country, the culture of a country, and the people of a country. And of course, they're all intertwined. And the economics must never rise above and trump culture and I think one of the reasons we've got into the pickle we've got into in this country is that we've always put the economy up at the top of our priorities and for example you know we locked up people during covid and printed 500 billion and we thought that the 500 billion that we would print

would somehow economically remove the pain of what we were doing. But actually we did the opposite of what our forefathers did in World War II, for example, where they would have given up their lives to protect their civil liberty because they recognized the importance of protecting the nation state

and the culture of the United Kingdom. You've actually got to fight tooth and nail to protect your country, which basically means fighting for the protection of your culture. And so these people who dismiss the importance of culture and say, well, it's just the culture wars, we should focus on the more important economic aspects of the governance are completely missing the point. Culture is right up there, it's critically important. And if reform does form a government, I very much hope it understands the critical importance of culture and that it protects, promotes and celebrates British culture, that we're no longer challenged to define what it means to be British and left wanting for an answer because we're reduced to ridiculous things like the European Convention of Human Rights

to describe what we mean by people having values in this country. There's got to be a determined effort by the next government actually to put culture front and centre. And if someone like Sarah Khan doesn't like an integrated, settled, pro-British, pro-traditional British culture, then of course she's welcome to lead the country. Indeed. And unfortunately, at the moment, it does feel like it's people in America who are really raising the attention of what's going on in this issue when it comes to the Islam takeover of the UK. Radio Genoa over the weekend posted in London, there are so many Muslims that they

are forced to pray even on pavements. This is what an Islamic invasion looks like. Charlie Kirk responded saying there are 50 Muslim countries in the world, 50 Muslim majority countries. Ask yourself why they insist on immigrating to the Christian West. And Maya Tusi replied, because Islam as an ideology is about taking over the world. They failed to succeed using force. Now there is a new approach. Alex Phillips, what do you make of the fact that it seems to be people like Charlie Kirk, who are prepared to say what most people in the UK, in the British elite class are not, which is basically that Islam is not compatible with our Christian

way of life. Yeah, because they still have free speech in America, right? It's that simple. They've been brought up having the ability to express such views without fear of persecution. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in this country. And it doesn't work that way politically because the media is so hardened to actually generating these taboo subjects, to beatifying certain individuals and causes and demonizing others. And then at the same time,

when you look at the way that we run our politics with first past the post, but also on a multi-party system, that demonization of the media can be a hugely compressing factor on electoral success. So we end up stuck in this awful game where we don't agree with the rules, but we're forced to play it if we want to stand any chance of winning.

And so America doesn't have so much of an issue. I was speaking to a friend just now before coming on your show, and we were saying, but you know, Trump was really bold and radical and said all of these things, and you know know, he still got elected. Why can't Nigel do the same? And I said, ah, because the choice was between Joe Biden, or not Joe Biden, actually it was Kamala Harris at that point, who, you know, Joe Biden, the fossil, someone who's decrepit and barely functioning and a woman who just seemed outright barmy

and like DEI on steroids versus Donald Trump. There weren't other sort of entities particularly that you could pick. So you either sat it out or backed your horse. Now in the United Kingdom where you have, largely speaking now three parties, you've got Labour Party reform and the Conservatives, and the Conservatives are dying of death. But actually it goes beyond that. You've got the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens. You have a multi-party system, but to win under First Pass, the Post, you've still got to try and push up to the magic 30%.

Unfortunately, you find yourself entangled within a political strategy that is dictated by this ridiculous straight jacket of media censoriousness, a cultural taboo that's been drummed into us for so many decades now that we've forgotten what freedom of speech is. It's a sad and woeful situation and I wish it didn't have to be this way. I wish we could have leadership that came out and said exactly what they think because I'm pretty certain that applies as well to the Conservative Party.

There have been many members of the Conservative Party who 10 years ago wouldn't have said boo to a goose, but now they've seen that a window shift are happy to turn around and voice their opinions on certain topics that five years ago would have been inconscionable. But that's because we are forced into a system where politicians are made to be weak and where journalists end up being public prosecutors. And quite frankly, it's a tragedy because Britain always used to be the lead nation of philosophy and innovation and free thinking and being a vanguard on so much progress in the world. I know it is really disturbing. Benhabib, just before you come in, I wanted to show you a little bit of an interview that

Rupert Lowe has conducted with our friend Conor Tomlinson on Tomlinson Talks. Conor will actually be here tomorrow, by the way, talking about this in a bit more detail. But he talks about this issue. Watch. I don't understand why our establishment is so keen to protect Islam. I mean, it's one of many religions and I don't think any religion should be singled out for any special treatment. If you have a society that believes in free speech and that does poke fun at things and does challenge things and does debate whether something's right or wrong.

There should be no exceptions. It should be for every religion, every faith, every politician, every public servant, whoever, they should all be and they should all face the same challenge from a society which ultimately is seeking the truth. And you don't get at the truth by suppressing free speech. You don't get at the truth by bullying people into silence. I think we've seen that throughout history. Benhabib, do you agree with Rupert there? Well, it comes back again to mass migration coupled with regulatory and legal framework

which favors minority ethnic and minority religious beliefs in the United Kingdom. And when you create that framework and the majority of those who fall in the protected status of minorities, in our case in this country, Muslims, 3.9 million in 2021. I think the figure's probably markedly higher than that now. What effectively happens is that within that protected status, it is the Muslims who are protected and none of the others by definition then get protection from the Muslim contingent as it were.

And so that it is Islam in this country that is on the ascendancy, in significant part because of mass migration, but again because of this regulatory framework that we've created that protects and promotes it. And the biggest challenge Islam has, particularly the form of Islam that has gone across the world since the 1980s, is this sort of fundamental belief, which is central to Islam, that the Quran is the word of God and is unchallengeable. And the minute you accept that as a Muslim, you can't tolerate a debate about the ideology because it's God that wrote the book. And if God wrote the book, it's perfect. wrote the book and if God wrote the book

it's perfect and if it's perfect it is beyond challenge and so freedom of speech is very very difficult in Islam at least as far as the ideology is concerned and that makes Islam as an ideology challenging for the form of democracy at least that we have in this country and so we're going to find increasingly that if we have a regulatory framework that protects and promotes Islam and that ideology isn't comfortable with the debate about itself in the way that Christianity is because the word of God is the Quran, then we're going to have greater and greater difficulties in settling

our society. And this comes full circle, again, Dan, back to what I was saying about the importance of culture. Rupert said something with which I slightly disagree. He said all religions should be treated the same in this country. We should, of course, have freedom of religion, but there is one religion which we do need to put over and above every other religion, and we need to make the case for it. And it needs to be constitutionally central, and the head of the state needs to understand what his role is when it comes to that religion. And everyone must by now know I'm talking about Christianity. We are essentially a Christian nation. And that Christian culture, that Christian heritage, the Christian belief, the promotion of church,

I wish Justin Welby understood what it was and his successor understands what it is. But Christianity must, we must be much more muscular about our Christian beliefs now. In order to write the balance, the imbalance that we've now got in the United Kingdom, Christianity now needs to be much more confident, much more proselytizing, much more on its front foot than it's been for the last couple of hundred years. Very well put, very well put indeed. Now look, there's a major update in this case of Kier Starmuys, Ukrainian firebomber grinder guys. And what this means is there's gonna be a total mainstream media blackout over the case.

So is there another coverup going on? We'll discuss much more of this with Alex Phillips and Ben Habib in just one minute. Plus today's greatest British union jackass reveal coming up as well. But first, being sleep deprived makes you perform as poorly as someone legally drunk. These deficits include slowed reaction time, reduced working memory, impaired decision making and poor emotional regulation. Poor sleep is also a stronger

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That's evening, the word evening,.ver.so slash outspoken. Use the coupon code outspoken to save 15%. But now back to the show. Breaking today, is there a cover up over Keir Starmer's Grindr firebombers? I only ask because it's now been revealed that these three blokes accused of arson attacks on the Prime Minister's property will not stand trial for a whopping 10 months. Here's the reporting from Politico. They write the trio will enter a plea hearing on October 17, then face trial at the Old Bailey on April 27, 2026,

almost a year after the fires they were accused of starting last month. Let me bring in my superstar panel now, former Brexit Party MEP and the author of the substack, that's what she said, and Ben Habib, former deputy leader of Reform UK. So look Alex, there's a real issue here because increasingly what we've seen with major court cases, I'm talking Axel Rudicabana, there's a real issue here, because increasingly what we've seen with major court cases, I'm talking Axel Ruda-Cabana, but there's a whole load of others, is that official dim, the government, the deep state, however you want to describe it, the establishment will hide behind these draconian contempt of court regulations, so as simply not to have to cover a story, to bury a story. And so what this

means with these firebombs, we're not going to know anything Alex until April 2026. And sorry to just quickly button, but the suggestion is Alex, that they want them to plead guilty. So it all just goes away. Yeah, exactly. And we're constantly told that timing isn't done deliberately or cynically. These guilty pleas aren't told to make them. And we're supposed to constantly believe that. I mean, this is such a curious story. I can't make head nor hair of it. My initial suspicion was that actually, given the nationality of the individuals, given the fact they were sort of jobbing actors, lived on the peripheries. My initial suspicion was they could potentially have been recruited by someone like the GRU, the Russian foreign intelligence arm, to try and create disruption

in this country, to try and dissuade the UK from intervening in Putin's war against Ukraine. So I don't know. That would be my initial feeling. I'm less inclined to go down the route of this being some sort of personal peccadillo of Sukiya Stama's private life. I think it is probably more likely to be connected to them being engaged by a foreign state actor, but I don't know. The thing is we may now never know, but also like I said, we may never know because if it was flatter, if it was a sort of personal scandal of the Prime Minister, there may have been actions taken to try and make sure that that isn't released to public. But also, if it was known that these people have been acting as operatives of a hostile state, there might also be a national interest at stake to concealing what we know about them, which might have come out in a court case.

The answer is, I don't know. We're gonna have to wait 10 months and then maybe we still will not know. But for such a staggering story, it really didn't generate the sort of newspaper columns that you would otherwise expect, which always makes me think there's something funny going on, a bit like that kid who attempted to assassinate Donald Trump. Normally, you would have years and years of speculating, who was it that the photos mischarged? Here's his school friends, this is the next door neighbour, this is, you know, someone who once walked his dog with him, and they'd all be given their accounts or review.

I can't even remember the man's name, for crying out loud. And so, very often, when things are deliberately or seemingly not hyper publicized, you have to think there's a subtext to all of this. Absolutely. And that is the thing, isn't it, Ben Habib? The mainstream media will often bury stories. Actually, story selection is one of their greatest powers. Covering up information is one of their greatest powers. And we've seen it so much with Slippery Starmer.

I'm sorry, we really have. From Lord Ali to the truth about his marriage, to the truth about the shape of his family, to the truth about what's going on with Lady Victoria Starmer. All of this stuff has just been totally covered up by the mainstream media. Now I'm actually with Alex when it comes

to these Grindr firebomombers as Thar described, but the point is we're probably never going to know the truth. That is not good enough. How can four young men who all look a particular way firebomb a whole load of the, or I have to be very careful because of our contempt of court laws. Be accused of fire bombing a whole load of properties. And the mainstream media have just decided this isn't a story, we're not going to cover it, we're not going to dig. And what very often happens, Ben, in these cases, is they do hide behind our contempt of court laws, because the same thing happened with Axel Ruda-Gabana. Absolutely, and I think what happened with Axel Rudekibana, the prohibition even put it effectively, I think put in place by Lindsay, what's his name, Lindsay Royle, the speaker in parliament. To basically say you can't even ask about it in parliament. Which was wrong, constitutionally the Speaker was wrong. Parliamentarians could and should have challenged the Prime Minister on what was going on and, you know, a critical

component of the criminal justice system is shining a very bright light on things that have happened and in the absence of that, in the absence of being able to, you know, court papers are freely available, you should be able to read the transcript, you should be able to understand exactly what's going on. And in the absence of having that bright light shone on things like Axel Ruda-Kaibana, things do go underground. Criminal activity is basically hidden from public eye and it encourages more criminal activity. I would also say, at least in the case of Axel Ruda-Kaibana, if we had known what the Prime Minister Yvette Krupa and Merseyside police knew very early on, and the Prime Minister had been open about the nature of the perpetrator, there wouldn't have

been the kinds of protests that then took place, because everyone knew, everyone would have known what happened, and people didn't, so there's a lot of supposition and anger about what was being withheld and it goes on and on and on. And of course with the mainstream media there is an unholy alliance, which I think you've been alluding to if not saying it explicitly, an unholy alliance between this kind of governance through supranational institutions, pro-diversity equity and inclusion, redistribution of wealth, all of these underlying socialist anti-British principles seem to have infected our mainstream media and they then apply their

analysis of various subjects with that backdrop. And so it does just instantly make you suspicious about what these fire bombers were all about. It's like I was instantly suspicious about that man who apparently tailgated an ambulance in order to run people over in Liverpool. And he was explained instantly as a white 53-year-old man. And it was so clear that they had disclosed the color of his skin in order to dumb, you know to effectively silence any any Any speculation about you know, the nature of the crime? But we live in that we live in a very topsy-turvy world

and I think a powerful point made by Alex is that we've got to have freedom of speech and And we don't we're seeing well, we don't have freedom of speech. And what we're seeing, we don't have freedom of speech. We've seen it, by the way, throughout this program, the underlying theme has been the absence of freedom of speech. You can, you can trace the roots of all the debates we've had. Well, it links to all of it. And actually there was one thing that's just come in and I want to finish with it because it's very interesting. It is obviously related to freedom of speech, but it's also related, I guess, a little bit to revenge. And Alex, I think you might enjoy this.

Nigel Farage has been asked about Elon Musk today by ITV News in Wales. And of course, we've got to put this into context, which is that six months ago, Elon Musk pretty brutally threw Nigel Farage under the bus, said he didn't think that he had what it takes, I think was the wording, to lead Reform UK. And at that point, that really damaged Farage's position within the Trump administration. But of course, six months on, that's blown up to pieces. Farage is all of a sudden back in a pretty strong position. And let's just say, Alex, I think you'll recognise this is a question that Farage very much enjoyed answering today. What?

Long Musk, you had a row with him. Oh, it could to be first. And I certainly was with Elon. I found it painful to watch. Painful to watch. Sad. Sad to leave government on those terms, to have the struggle he's got with Tesla, he's got to get, I think Elon needs to get himself sort of straightened out pretty quickly. Alex, is that what you call revenge? Do you know, I think actually that's just what I'd call candor. I mean, we saw Elon Musk on the campaign trail

looking like there were flies buzzing around his head when I don't think there were. And it is incredibly tragic. And like I was saying earlier, when we started this conversation, I remember once being told by my grandma, if you don't want other people to read stuff, if you think you might regret it later, don't write it down.

Don't put things in writing. And social media has really changed the game of people just sort of losing their common sense and their sort of cultural decorum and how to deal with issues, how to deal with fallouts, how to deal with disagreements. It suddenly becomes putting sort of verbal posters all over timelines.

And I just think, come on, it's not very edifying, you know? That I think actually it'd be nice to go back to a bit of British stiff-upper-lippism when it comes to the way that we look at personalities and personality clashes in politics. And we had this sort of zeer use of fallout, and I was like, oh, this is spicy. I was on air at the time.

The next thing is like, hold my beer, look at what's going on in America. And it just escalated to the point of you almost got lost or not stuck in space. And there's no going back is there? That's the problem. You're still away from the keyboard. Yeah. There's no going back because obviously Ben he's deleted the posts specifically accusing Trump of being in the Epstein files, but that the damage was done. It's a shame.

It's a, it's actually a tragedy for Western civilization. I agree. I agree. The entire West, the entire West of people like you and me and Alex, who are keen to restore our countries and to understand the importance of nationhood, making policies for the betterment of our country and our people and so on. All of us are looking at the United States and hoping that it succeeds in spades.

We need the United States to succeed because for the first time in decades, we've got a president who is espousing the kinds of things that we wish to take place in our own countries. And if the US succeeds, then we can follow. And so I do hope that the spat between Musk and Trump doesn't undermine in any way Trump's ability to deliver the United States away from the precipice of disaster.

And we can all then follow that same lead. But I can say, I'll disclose now, I don't think I'm breaching a confidence in disclosing this, but I had a good chat with Elon Musk a couple of months ago, three, four months ago. I had a 20-minute conversation with him, in which I found him to be nothing other than extremely lucid, very well versed in all the subjects about which we talked, and understood the dangers that Western civilisation faced. Did Zerat and Faraj come up? He may or may not have come up.

And is this potentially to get a bit of backing? Get a bit of backing from your adventure? No, this was before all of that. This was just a chat on ideology, where we stood as people. And I found him to be absolutely solid on all the big issues. And of course, the 20 minute chat isn't a one and a half hour conversation, but it's long enough, I think, to get to the bottom of it. And I think people underestimate Elon Musk if they think he's some kind of loony. Remember, he's the richest man in the world.

Oh, I mean, I agree. I think he's an incredible, incredible man. And I mean, Ben, it would be, it would be the type of backing. If you were thinking about, you know, a new conservative political force in the United Kingdom, he might be the guy you need. Yeah, well, I would like, I mean, look, all support for anything that delivers the end, which we all want, which is the restitution of our country, would be great. But I would like to do it, you know, locally in the United Kingdom.

Do you get the sense that he is done with Reform UK now? Elon Musk? Yes. I think he was done with it in January. And the issue for him then was the lack of recognition by Nigel Farage that Tommy Robinson was a political prisoner. It came back to free speech. The Americans really understand the critical importance of free speech.

And it was clear to them that the incarceration of Tommy Robinson on a civil charge was effectively making him a political prisoner. And it doesn't matter what you think of Tommy Robinson. It doesn't matter whether you think he's the Voldemort of politics, the Voldemort of all division in society. It's academic. He was incarcerated because of political reasons. And it was vital that those who want to champion free speech saw that and called it out for what it is. Just like the restaurant episode with Tommy Robinson just now, it doesn't matter whether you like or hate the man. It's the fact that he was thrown out of a restaurant

when he wasn't behaving badly. These are things we should all be very concerned about. And you've made some news just then, Ben Habib. I like that, I like that a lot. But also breaking right now, Alex Phillips desperate to get your reaction to this. Andrew Pearce in the Daily Mail has just revealed that David Bull will become the new chairman of Reform UK. Now, I think

David Bull is an incredible man. And if this report is true, Alex Phillips, as I say, this has literally broken in the last few minutes. This would be a coup, wouldn't it, for the party? Well, it looks like I'm getting up early on a Saturday and Sunday. There's a lot up and ground. I'd better get used to a morning alarm at 3.30 and no more Friday night drinking coups. Because David Bull would have to quit TalkTV, presumably, right? I would imagine. I would imagine because being chairman would have to be a full-time job.

David has been chomping at the bit to get back involved. He's had FOMO, as do I if I'm honest, you know, I'm sort of hands are tied at talk. They say you know you've got to pick a lane, you're either a broadcaster and you bring objectivity to the table and you can deliver breaking news and analyze political stories as even handedly as possible. As you've seen, I think with the clips you played of my reporting on Reform UK is what I try to do. But it is difficult for me sitting there and watching a movement that I've been part of

for 20 years, reached such radical heights and kind of wanting to jump into the fray and get involved. So if it is David Bull, it is well-deserved. I am such a huge fan of his. He is so hardworking, his integrity is incredible. You know, he was deputy leader with Richard Tyson Reform UK, kept that party ticking over tirelessly without any public recognition for years. When Nigel Farage came back and he was disavowed of his duties, he humbly took that decision quietly and continued to support the party and has done all that

he can, modestly and with great magnanimity behind the scenes. And so if they have picked him to hold that position, I can't think of a better character. But we don't know. Look, Andrew Pierce might have got it wrong. We don't know. Yeah, I mean, he's quoting Alex Phillips, a reform source, saying he looks and sounds good and he's been out and proud for years, so we have no worries about any skeletons in his closet. Now, Ben Habib, you were obviously the joint deputy leader of Reform UK with

David Bull. Do you think this is a good choice? I think David is a first-class individual. Absolutely kind, gentle, caring man. And I think it would be terrific in any organisation to have him chairing it because he will pour oil wherever he sees troubled waters. And so I hope that he will help reform on its way in a very, very positive way. Yep, I'm happy with that. I'm very happy with that. I think Alex Phillips, if you could say, and obviously we did play what you said earlier on in the show, if you could say that there was a lot of division coming from Zia Youssef, David Bull is the opposite, right? Like he's a people person, he's a total unifier. Everyone loves him. And I think this is a great choice.

Just to make clear, I wasn't sitting in those reform party offices when arguments and spats were taking place. I don't know. It has been suggested to me that there had been some sort of clashes and disagreements. But look, I don't know. But been some sort of clashes and disagreements but look I don't know but when it comes to clashes and disagreements you would have a lot of trouble actually having a fight with David Bull, it would be like trying to fight a teddy bear but at the same time he is so loved and respected and intelligent, I mean the man's intelligence is off the charts and he's dedicated and like I said he is magnanimous, he really fights for the cause when he's dedicated. And like I said, he is magnanimous. He really fights for the cause.

When he was disavowed of his duties as deputy leader, he just went, right, I'm going to go back to my broadcasting show. It is correct that Nigel came back. I didn't win a seat, so it's correct. I don't have this particular office and has quietly waited and watched. And if he's deciding to take a monumental decision

to step back into the fray, which will mean sacrificing, I would imagine, I don't know. But I imagine it will mean sacrificing his broadcasting career, which he equally has poured so much energy into. Nobody understands how much hard work David puts in behind the scenes to curate his show. Then again, it's testament to his character that he is a dutiful servant for this country and I adore that man. What a show we've

had, what a show we've had, so much breaking news but I adore you too. Thank you so much to my superstar panel Alex Phillips. Follow her on That's What She Said, her brilliant sub stack, and Ben Habib, businessman, former Brexit party MEP, former deputy leader of Reform UK, and now chair, I can't forget to not to mention this because I love it, chair of the brilliant Great British pack. Thank you both so much. And now it's time to reveal today's greatest Britain and Union Jackass. A reminder of your Union Jackass nominees, Narenda Kerr nominated by the GRIFT report for Race Baiting Online in Calling Herself an English Rose. Dawn French nominated by Barnack One because of her apology just like Linnecke for an anti-Jewish social media post, Zia Youssef nominated by

Scotland A23 for resigning from Reform for a weekend and he said, I wish I got such a celebratory response for turning back up to work every Monday. Just before I bring you the results, which I'm looking for now, let me get some comments from you about the show. Where seagulls fly posted, I feel like a yo-yo. I'm not normally indecisive in this way. I voted Reform UK, then disliked what they did to Rupert, then Zia left and I thought I could vote for them and now no thanks to Zia.

Although maybe David Bull will bring a few people into the mix. Colin posted, it's interesting that Lee Anderson seems to keep his head down for the most part. Pom said, just shows the reform two tier system. We love Zia who is a twat, but Innocent Low is not welcome. Barbara Clevery wrote, the only reform members I would trust are the two who have been expelled. And Jean Philipson said, Alex Philips has been extremely rude about Ben Habeib. Thank you so much by the way to Susan Grove who joined Outspoken Plus during the show. Thank you Susan. Hello that gets you first access to our members videos. And also thank

you so much to Simon Brandy for the super chat who wrote let's be real if Zia endorsed the ban of the burka it'll be his lot threatening him not the far right. Tice is the worst part of reform week so lots of interesting feedback coming in. Let's get to the reveal of your Union Jackass in third place with 21% of the vote N Nour Indicur, the runner up with 34% of your vote, Dawn French, but going along with the theme of today's show, your union jackass, Zia Youssef, with a whopping 45% of the vote, Greatest Britain Time Now, nominated by Music Mum in Shoes and it's Tommy Robinson for holding Hawksmoor to account for discriminatory behaviour. I'm going to tell you about the uncancelled after show in just one moment but before I do, let me tell you we've got some very special shows over the next few days.

I'm not going to be live because I'm off on a little break but I really, really hope that you would still join us at five o'clock because I promise you We have some brilliant guests who you have been asking for for a very long time So tomorrow making his outspoken debut. I've waited a long time for this Steven Wolf Then on Wednesday again, I've managed to coax him out of semi retirement Colin Brazier I know how much you love him. He was a launch presenter at GB News alongside of me and this is his first major interview. I can't wait. Then on Thursday, another one I'm super excited about genuinely. I've been begging her to do Outspoken and she has come out of like full retirement in order to do so.

Carol McGiffen, really amazing former Loose Women but also such a political brain who's one of my favourite guests on GB News. Then on Friday it is the biggie Mark Stein, my former GB News colleague, opening up for the first time about the truth about his exit from the station and the off-communist. And then on Monday before we're back live, Alison Pearson, the Star Daily Telegraph columnist is going to join me for a very special episode. So as I say, we're not going to be doing the usual shows just for the next few days but we've got lots of brilliant guests tackling the biggest issues and please do keep coming back, keep supporting us and then I'm back live a week tomorrow.

But coming up in the uncancelled after show on Substack, Meghan Markle cosplays Princess Diana at Disneyland and her latest desperate bid to cover up for that video. We'll have all the latest as we team up with the brilliant Royal News Network. So at this stage, we're moving off YouTube and Rumble, moving to Substack to continue the conversation in the uncancelled after show.

All you have to do is sign up at www.outspoken.live so as I say we are back tomorrow as normal don't you worry about that just with these special editions of the show Stephen Wolf, Colin Brazier, Carol McGiffen, Mark Stein, Alison Pearson I'm so lucky like that is like my dream lineup up of shows. So please do come back 5pm UK time tomorrow, midday Eastern, 9am Pacific. Hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube with Rumble. Turn on the notification bell and make sure that you ask to be alerted to every episode. And most importantly, I promise to keep fighting for you.