Dan Wootton Outspoken - RESTORE BRITAIN REFORM & TORIES CLASH IN FIRST POST-ELECTION DEBATE OVER FUTURE OF RIGHT FOR GEN Z

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Ex-Big Brother star and Restore Britain supporter George Gilbert, political commentator and rising Conservative Party superstar Albie Amankona, and independent journalist and Reform UK supporter Jack Hadfield join Dan for a brand new episode of The Clash as Gen Z members of all three parties of the right debate for the first time since the election Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. No spin, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Woodson. This is a special edition of Outspoken as we bring you a brand new episode of The Clash. After the elections last week, the future of the right in British politics is under the microscope, with a brutal war ahead. As Rupert Lowe launches Restore Britain nationally, Nigel Farage tries to build on Reform UK's momentum, and the Conservative Party under Kemi Bader Nock fights extinction. One group critical to one of these new political forces gaining supremacy is Gen Z. And today all three parties go head to head right here on outspoken on the biggest issues facing the right today. Clashing it out.

Ex-Big Brother Star and Restore Britain supporter George Gilbert, political commentator and rising conservative party superstar Albi Ammancona. He's a major chemi backer and independent journalist and reform UK staffer and supporter Jack Hadfield. Now, because of the special clash today, We are not revealing a live Greatest Britain and Union Jackass, but the Royal Uncanceled Aftershow continues as normal over on Substack after the main show. You can watch that at www.outspoken.org. But now, let's go. Immigration is changing Britain at a pace that our political class fail to keep up with.

From housing, the job market, the out-of-control welfare state, culture war issues, NHS disasters, it affects all of us. But perhaps our political class that is largely made up of the older generations aren't dealing with it as seriously as they should. Maybe it's because they will be dead by the time Britain is unrecognisable. So the generation who knows that they are going to live through the carnage that is coming is Gen Z. So how hard do they want to see immigration tackled?

Let's clash to debate today. Ex-Big Brother Star, Restore Britain supporter George Gilbert, political commentator, Conservative Party member Albi Amman Kona, independent journalist and Reform UK supporter Jack Hadfield. So I'm going to let all of you put forward your case. Now, you're Gen Z. So we do things very quickly, right, because we've got a short attention span. So only 30 seconds. George Gilbert, how does Restore Britain want to see immigration tackle?

Well, Restore Britain are the only party willing to change this broken system. They want to abolish the asylum system. They're promising millions to go, mass deportations. They want net negative migration. And we're the only party. They're taking this seriously. The Conservatives have given us incessant promises over the years, failing to deliver constantly. Reform, they talk a good game, but I do still feel they're diluting

when it matters. Only restore Britain will keep Britain alive, ladies and gentlemen. 30 seconds up, bold claim. Albi Amman Kona, 30 seconds to you. Towards the end of the last Conservative government, when James Cleverly was the Home Secretary, he put in measures that have actually led to the partial reversal of Boris Wave, and we might actually be on a path to net zero migration as a result of what the last Conservative Home Secretary did. So I just want to put that point forward. We're talking about Gen Z today.

I think the idea that Gen Z want to see ICE-style deportation forces in the UK is for the birds. I think most of Gen Z actually vote for the Green Party. What we need to be doing is making the case that immigration, high levels of immigration, is driving up things like house prices, it's driving up things like NHS.

waiting this. The way to bring it down is to bring those immigration numbers down. But we will continue this debate. Jack, Hadfield, Reform UK. How will you solve immigration? Well, I think the thing is here is that Reform UK is the only party that both can and will reduce immigration. We've seen what the Conservatives did in 14 years of government.

The Boris wave, they had 12 million people come in and restore, you know, they talk a game, but they're never going to get into power. That's a crucial thing here. You actually need to get into power in order to change the policies. And if you look at what Reform and Restore are saying, they're relatively similar. Same in some ways are the Conservatives. But the Conservatives didn't do it. Restore can't do it.

And that's the difference here. Reform can and will. Okay. 30 seconds are very, very clear positions. Albi Amankona, look, firstly, so brilliant to have you on Outspoken for the first time. You were a regular on my show at GB News. I love my introduction. You should be my hype man.

Rising Conservative superstar. I don't know if chemistry is that. Well, I think on the first time you appeared on my GB News show. said maybe one day this guy might be Prime Minister. You did say that. So, I do really like you, but I'm going to have to start with you, Alby. Go on.

Because why on earth would we trust the people who have put us in this catastrophic mess to fix it up? You know, I don't go to Michael Jackson's cosmetic surgeon for a new nose job. I hear what you're saying,

but actually, my point on that specific issue would be that all of the people that were blowing smoke up Boris's arse during the time that he was in government and making all of those decisions have actually joined Jack's party. Suella Braverman was the Home Secretary

that was in charge when we saw immigration get to almost one million in one year. Robert Jenrick was the immigration minister who oversaw the opening of all the migrant hotels that we see all of the protests about. Andrea Jenkins, Sir Jake Berry,

Nadim Sahawi, all blowing smoke up Boris's ass when he was in office. They have all joined Jack's party. So I would argue, if you're going to make that point, and I think it is a good one, that why would you trust his party when all of those people that cause the problems that we all agree our problems are now with him? I mean, Jack, you have blown it. Reform UK has utterly blown it. You were meant to be the alternative to the Conservative Party.

That's why people like me voted for Reform. UK at the last general election. And now you've got all of these losers, wasters and strays who destroyed this country as part of you. I don't think reform has blown it. I think that's a, it's not a truly accurate characterisation of what's happening.

What was inaccurate about what I said? As Suella as Home Secretary, if you look at the numbers on illegal migration, when Suella came in, it was only during Slella's tenure that the numbers actually started to be. I was talking about legal migration. But yes, obviously.

Which, again, because, and this is the point of this, both Suella and Generic resigned because both of them said... Suella didn't resign. Well, Generic resigned on this and on that issue. He opened immigration hotel. And he said, the problem was, I've been completely restricted on doing what I can do. We were elected as the Conservatives. He boasted about opening migrant hotels that you go and report. The problem, yes, because the process on, he opened most of them under his 10 years.

The problem with the asylum hotels is not that the asylum hotels are there. It's that the asylum seekers are there. All their Minahan, you know, great lady, had the pink ladies now in Restore Britain. She said to me previously. She said here previously. Again, like she said, the thing with the, actually, with the asylum hotels, at least you know where they are. At least they're not being dispersed in HMOs. The issue is not the policy of, because they had to be there somewhere if we couldn't deport them.

You don't know where they are, though. Because they go missing. Yeah. And that's the entire point. It's not great. In the village next door to where I live, there is an R.F base called Weathersfield in essence. Yes. I've reported on this as well. They literally go, they get shipped in there and then they just disperse.

We don't know where they go. Because of the ECHR. They get three minibuses to Braintree to Chontsford and then they go missing. So when you're saying, oh, at least we know where they are. Jack, we don't. I'm saying that's even like worse the bad situation compared to the HMO. The problem is that they're here to begin with. I just want to pick up on one thing, Albee.

Yes. You have a real problem with Suella Braverman, don't you? You hate this woman. I don't hate anyone. Why? Well, you really dislike her. You really dislike her. I dislike the policy that she oversaw, which was the most liberal migration policy.

And you think she's racist? I'm not going to relitigate things that are in litigation. But the only reason I raised. She uses very strong words to talk about policies that she believes in. And yet when she was in power, the policies that she believes in. the policies that she oversaw were the complete opposite. I put it to you, Albi, I put it to you, that Suella, superwoman Suella, as I branded her,

was the only person within the conservative government who actually did want change. And sure, she was sacked, but come on, LB. She resigned. Hang on. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Hang on. They were twice.

What is it about Suella Braverman's period in government when she was Attorney General, Home Secretary, or any of the roles that she undertook whilst the Conservatives were in power, what specific policy outcomes do you say she's a two-pwoman for? She was the Attorney General over which, who oversaw lockdown policy, which you hate. You understand the Attorney General is the lawyer for government.

Yes, absolutely. She was involved in that process of making that legal, which is something you hated. She then oversaw the most liberal... fought tooth and nail. Well, she didn't fight hard enough, did she? She then oversaw the most liberal immigration policy this country has ever seen.

What is it about any of her tenure in government that makes you say she's a superwoman? Because I think the opposite. Well, I actually completely agree with you when it comes to policy, but the differences is that we are talking politics. And what we all know is that Suala Braverman tried desperately, and yes, did fail

behind the scenes to change the constitution. conservative policy on a whole load of issues. And by the way, she was very brave. She was the first mainstream politician who came out and told it straight that there is an invasion of this country, that the marches, the pro-Pali marches, are hate marches. What did she do? What did she? Because she couldn't do anything because of your party. No, no, no, no. Why is it then that when James Cleverly became the Home Secretary, he was able to do all the things that Suella wanted to do and put this country on a path of net zero migration. By talking like a weak, woke.

No, no. Excuse me, we're talking about policy here. You agreed that the policy that Suella Brabman put in place was wrong. It wasn't good enough. Why was James able to do it? I don't think she could put the policy. If the Conservative Party was blocking Suella, why did they allow James to do it? I don't think his policy was enough, actually. I don't even think it was close to enough.

I think Suella knew that it wasn't enough. But where I think you do raise a fair point is that, the conservative failure, your failure, has now, in some ways, toxified the Conservative Party. So doesn't that make this man and restore Britain actually the only force that goes against the Boris Wave? There are two cheeks of the same bottom. How do you respond to that, Alby?

Well, I would argue, first of all, that your party leader, if you can even call it a party, but let's call it a party for the same. Oh, well, hang on, hang on. It is. It is a minister party. Come on now. Your party leader, then, I said for the sake of this. Rupert Lowe. Blythe, MP for Great Yarmouth.

I think he says some things that I agree with, other things that I disagree with. Remind me which party does that he came from? Oh, yes. It was reform. So when you talk about these. And remind me which party, when you just, when the Conservatives.

I think it was. And that they were relatable to the working people. You say to, you say, you say, that is distasteful. So he, like myself, is now no longer part of reform. Yeah, and he's working with the Conservatives. I was going to say something, which I think is going to be a bit more united. Is this physical harassment?

Am I harassing? Is that only if you don't like it? Exactly. You're smiling, so I didn't think I'm harassing. You might, I don't. The point is, you say two sides of the same bottom, right? Your party leader came from his party. A lot of the figures that have allegedly made his party,

I've not finished my point, but have made his party credible have come from my party. the immigration policies of all three parties are actually quite similar. We have just seen the Green Party do incredibly well in the local elections. Rather than getting at each other's necks the whole time, wouldn't it make more sense? If we look at the things, the issues where, which we have in common, the toys can't win in Wales, reform have done very well in Wales. The SMP in Scotland, someone needs to tackle that.

Reform can probably do that. The Conservatives can't do that. In parts of England, reform are never going to. to win, the Conservatives will be. I don't think that's true. And in Great Yarmouth, which really is the only Restore stronghold at the moment, at the moment. Like, you're not a realistic proposition

for a national government. So if we look at the polling, who knows? Who knows? At this very point in time, Restore are not a weird thing. Seriously. Throw in the towel because, oh, right now,

it's not going to work. No, exactly. It's a process. And the problem is that will be, for years and years and years, people like me, maintain faith with parties like yours because we were told, oh, we'll just get power and then we'll do all the stuff that we promise. We are sick of that.

We are sick of the political establishment lying to us and not implementing the policies that we, the British public, have demanded now for decades. And I actually want to pick up on a policy point with you, Albi, that you made at the top. You seem to suggest that Brits would be anti-a Donald Trump-style ICE deportation. force. I would argue, L.B., given what's happening on the streets of this country, it would be one of the most popular policies a party could enact. And this is a reform policy now. It is. It is. Zia announced this as the Home Affairs spokesman, I think really, Shadow Home Secretary, because they are the true opposition. They are the true opposition to Labour. This is obvious now,

so my shadow home secretary, for all intents and purposes, in my heart, in my soul, he is. Baby, look what he is doing. It is the truth. You said Gen Z does not want ICE. Z, we're in England. Okay. Good man. You know people say...

I know you're from New Zealand, but come on. I'm not. I'm English and you know it. To be fair to Alby, what he's trying to say is a lot of Gen Z are, in fact, green voters. We all hate to admit it, but that's the fact. That's what the polls say. Didn't you say you were going to vote green?

I did. And for good reason, we can get on to that later if you want. But the point is, is Gen Z as concerned about immigration as we like to imagine? Probably not. I think Gen Z as a whole left and right and more concerned with the economy, just most fail to realize the link between immigration and economy. I'm not necessarily sure that that's fully true. It's true overall that like overall Gen Z is probably more pro-immigration.

It just sounds better to say Z. I've said Z too much on Gen Z. I'll say everything else, but Gen Z to me. It just sounds better than the mouse. Before people are the comments say that I'm in some way embracing the American bastardization of English. Exactly. It's only for Gen Z. It just sounds right.

Anyway, sure, like, they're probably going to be more pro-ingeration overall. But those who are on the right, and certainly younger men, of people who are on the right, their ideas on immigration range from, we have to, you know, you have to start closing the borders to, and deport millions as well. If you're on the right in Gen Z, your stance on immigration is going to be very hard compared to what we've had now. But the problem is,

most of Gen Z isn't on the right. So for those who are, yes, immigration much, much harder than has been in the past. Well, there's a 2025 survey that said 24% of men, age 16 to 25, wanted to see stricter immigration laws in the UK. Now, that sounds good.

That's about the numbers. I do just wonder if you are confident that an ICE-style deportation force is really an unpopular policy amongst young people. Are you confident in that? I am confident that a US-style ice deportation force, which is very heavy-handed in its action. Bring it on! I am confident that would not be popular in this country.

It's not even popular in the US. And actually, if we look at the president... Well, Trump got a lick. If we look at the president in recent time who actually deported the most people, who was it? Obama. Exactly. Did he have the same problem? And he was dealing with the low-hanging fruit.

Did he have the same problems that Trump is having with his ICE deportation force and the violence that he is committing on the American people? People have been killed because of the ICE deportation force. No, he didn't. And this is what I'm talking about when I talk about Suo. And what about all of the illegal immigrants who are coming into this country on? And killing the native. population. After 2 million of them.

Yeah. And as a defense of the ICE policy, what Trump has done, yes, Obama deported more people than Trump. Obama deported more people than Trump, but border crossings on the southern border are now basically zero, and millions of people have self-deported from the United States.

I think we're not talking about the bigger than what Obama did. Trump needs to go harder. Because Trump, in Trump's campaign, they promised 10 million deportations. They did. They haven't got anywhere in. And they're giving up.

But it'll be this. A couple of people have been killed. That comes with the territory. 100%. I completely agree with you on that. Conservatives are too captured by woke, wet human rights. London centric. Yeah, that's not true.

Seriously, Elby. Can I tell you what the Conservative Party policy is? And is a rapist, a drug trafficker, a terrorist, and they go against the ice, our ice, whatever it's called, and they shot dead. Too bad. Too bad.

Amen. Yep. I do not think that policy would be popular. the British people. We don't even want... I think everybody's right, actually. I mean, we're not in America. You talk about the Americanization of our culture. But, Dan, you're like, you are doing it.

I'm sorry, but can you imagine this country people being happy with people being shot? Well, I'm sorry. I don't think you understand what's going on in this country. No, no, no. I understand. There is an Islamist takeover of this country. We are at threat every single day through invaders who want to kill us.

And I am done. And I want... want the police to have force. I think it was pathetic that the local populations in Birmingham, for example, in those riots, were able to completely

get the police to completely capitulate. Our police have to be stronger. They have to take on these criminal forces. They have to take on these invaders. That means you need a nice style force. I know a lot of people won't like that, but unfortunately, Albi,

what I don't like is these people invading our country and trying to rape our young women blow up our communities on the street, traffic jugs, traffic children. I'm done. It's not personal. It's necessary. So let's come back to policy, because that's initially what you asked me about.

Your claim was that the Tories were somehow captured by woke and wet ideology. They were attached to human rights. I believe that to be true. Stuff. Well, let's actually talk about the immigration policy that the Tories proposed. So withdrawal of the ECHR. Finally. Should have done it in the last government.

which is the same policy as reform, same policy as restore. A illegal migrant deportation scheme, they want to deport around 150,000 illegal migrants every year. They don't quite call it, that's your point. They don't quite call it a nice scheme, but some people might argue that it was quite similar to that. They want to increase the threshold of time that it takes to settle in this country from five years to 10 years,

again, reform was stolen that policy. And then also, they want to look at repealing some of the human rights legislation that stops so that immigration decisions are not made abroad. But the people who come to this. But the people who invade our country. Alby, but the thing is, you had 14 years in government to do all of this. The Conservatives were that they say every election. Like I was in government personally.

No, but the concern. You're backing this party, which has repeatedly said every single time, We're going to get migration down to the tens of thousands. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. Rishi Sunak, who, you know, after was part of the Boris Wave, again, let millions of people in as Prime Minister. So why did you let in all of those conservatives? Into your party?

They're going to be detained, deport. They are your people now. They're your people now. Because the only people that we brought in are the actual few people who are in the Conservative Party, who are actually good people and try to do something. So well, Towers down, well, Towers down, and get all migration. I've got to our civil liberty.

Hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up. Because we've actually got to be able to hear each other. Alby, I just want to ask you a final question on this particular point, a policy point. Do you think the invaders to our country have human rights? Do they have human rights? Yes. That needs to be respected by government. All humans have human rights.

Of course they do. So, yes. Ding Chong Magic, Dan Choll Magic, would you have been happy of a nice style deportation force had shot him dead after he bludgeoned Rianne and White to death after stabbing her 23 times in the head with a screwdriver having arrived in this country on a boat. Would I have shot an eye style? Would you have been unhappy if an ice style deportation force had shot him dead because I would have been celebrating?

Well, first of all, if we're talking about after a crime has taken place, a deportation force would not be the person, police and that would be the police. and I would be happy for the police to do whatever it is that they wanted to do to him within the limits of a law. Yes, no answer. But it's not, he's asked, he's actually asking. He's asking an inaccurate question. And that's why I was correcting it. I would be quite happy with law enforcement dealing with him on the strongest possible.

But does he have human rights? Of course criminals have human rights. Yes. Even the worst criminals in the world have human rights. Too soft. And that right there is the rights problem because we're on the same team, really. but the left, look at the Greens at the Gorton and Denton by-election.

Prime example, in Gorton, high Muslim vote. Do you think traditional, devout Muslims and the genuine Greens have a lot in common? Ask them about animal welfare, about gay rights, about women's rights. They don't see either right. But Hannah Spencer is at mosques dancing with the Muslims, got all the garb on,

she's willing to do what it takes. She's willing, let me finish, she's willing to do what it takes to win the election by any means necessary. maintain the upper hand with our ethics in check. It means nothing. If we're not winning the election, who cares?

Because that's the only party that can win the 2029 election. I don't believe if Nigel Farge's thought of parts, he will do what it takes. He said he doesn't care about demographics. George, hold that thought. Hold that thought because I actually want to talk

about leadership, okay? Because it's very, very important in all of this. So let's get to that because many say the disunited kingdom is in the last chance saloon and that the next general election will determine who gets to take the top job to save Britain. It will all be in their hands.

So who is the right person to take up such responsibility? And after the elections, it is clear there are only three choices on the right. Rupert Lowe for Restore Britain, Kemi Badernock, for the Conservatives, who has absolutely secured her position in her party, and Nigel Farage in Reform UK. So let's clash it out now with Restore Britain Supporter Ex-Big Brother star George Gilbert, the political commentator and conservative superstar Albi Amman Kona

and the independent journalist member of Reform UK, Jack Hadfield. So Alby, let's start with you. 30 seconds. Why is Kemi Badernock the right person to be Prime Minister? Thank you, Kerry Bajnock is the right person to be Prime Minister from a Gen Z perspective. That's what we're talking about. One, she is the youngest and most dynamic leader out of the two old men, let's be quite frank, that we're talking about in Rupert Lowe and Nigel Farad.

She has the most stake in this country's future. She is the woman who is coming out with the bold ideas, the new plans to take this country forward. Everything adds up with Kemi. She's got a track record of speaking out on difficult issues. and I am certain out of the three leaders that we're debating today, she's the one Gen Zet to vote, should vote. 30 seconds up, Jack Hatfield. Why is Nigel Farage the right person to lead this revolution?

Because he's been leading this revolution for decades now. It's thanks to Nida Farage that we got Brexit. It was thanks to his campaigning with UKIP for so many years that forced David Cameron to put that on the table. And then he made immigration, the key issue in this country by his campaigning again and again and again. This man has changed this country. It has made, we would not be having the conversations that we're having now

without Nide Farage. I trust in his leadership. I trust the people that he's surrounded himself with and he will be the perfect person as Prime Minister in 2021. Your 30 seconds is up. George Gilbert, why should Rupert Lowe be Prime Minister? Rupert Lowe is honest. He's trustworthy and he is willing to do what it takes.

And that's what this country is yearning for in its hour of need right now. while Kemi Badenok is trying to flog a dead horse with the same old tripe. And Farage, he talks a good game, but he's more interesting and seeming virtuous than actually doing what it takes to restore Britain. Only Rupert Lowe will slice the Gordian knot and make Britain great again. 30 seconds is up. Okay, Jack Hatfield, I'm going to come to you first on this

because a lot of people wonder why I am so critical of Nigel Farage these days. I was his colleague, friend at Giac. G.B News for a long period of time, actually have no personal issue with Nigel Farage on any level. We have always got on great. I respect him. I like him. He is a fun guy. But Jack, he's changed. He has been captured. And it was when I saw him say that he didn't give a damn about the demography of this country, that mass deportations were a political impossibility, that it was absolutely essential to have the Islamist vote and appeal to Muslims in order to become Prime Minister, I thought, something has happened to this man.

What is it, Jack? Is he so determined to gain power that he thinks he needs to convince the left? Is Andrew Bridgen-right that he has been compromised in some way, that foreign forces have some type of compromising material on him? what has gone on with Farage? Where is the Farage that I used to know? Well, I think sort of what you said there in, you know, what is he trying to do? He's trying to win an election.

And you've seen this in his campaign over so many years. Not at any cost, but what he's doing is he's obviously with reform being the highest in the polls right now when they had, obviously, had polls saying that they're at the majority. Nide Farage, he operates as a cautious operator. His main thing is, I think he said this in a speech once, he said what he's been trying to do in politics is slowly stick the flag a bit further out

and a bit further out on the Overton window bit by bit by bit. But he's doing the opposite. He's doing the opposite. He's shutting it. Because he said the reason why you do this is because you have to have people support you to then get into power to actually change the things

that need to be done. Once he then has, he's at the top of the polls, he's like, okay, his instinct is let's not. screw this up. I'm in the position now. Hold it. And then, you know, we can get into power and do the things that we need to do. I think in some of his instincts, he has been a little bit incorrect. If you look at, for example, what he, when he was talking about stuff, which is December 2024, seemed to have a bit of a wobble then. And I was a little bit of a bit concerned about this at

the time. But it does seem overall that actually, yes, you know, if you look, again, they're still high in the polls now. And now, you know, mass deportations is reform policy. You know, Zia, Yusuf as Home Secretary, who is someone who's not been connected to the Boris Wave or the Tories or anyone else, he's the guy that I really trust to actually sort out the number one problem for me, which is mass migration. So it seems for Raj's political instincts have generally been proved correct over time. So I think a lot of the stuff he says is, again, he was like, we're so close to gaining power, if I say something that's too off the rocker here that makes me look like an extremist that's going to turn off the coalition base that I've built, then

it's over. But isn't the whole reason, George, that Rupert Lowe is gaining such popularity is that we are sick of those games and we don't want Nigel Farage playing those old political games. Our country is facing dire straits, facing total destruction and I am sick of Farage playing that mainstream media game. Well, I think one of the best unique selling points of Restore Britain is that they acknowledge that the British people are sick of the political class. people telling us what to do who haven't worked a real day in their life. They're not specialists in any field. What Restore Britain want is for the Minister for Education to be an ex-teacher

or the Minister for Business and Trade to be an accomplished entrepreneur. With your parties, it's all, oh, he's had a column in the spectator. Let's do him a favour, get him a job, a nice little good job. But Nigel Farage was a successful businessman. Yeah, true. And that's one of the reasons why I liked him. He's successful in the city. He made a lot of money.

Yeah. But I think... He's lived. Come on. He has. True. But now I feel... We're talking about the leader here.

Okay. But what this country needs is somebody who is willing to be honest with the public about what needs to be done. Because let's face it, not a lot in this country is doing well right now. So you're saying Nigel is dishonest these days. I think he says certain things to get in power, as Jack has just told us. But actually, whether he's willing to follow through once he's in power?

I don't think so. They can't hold to see for all of this is done in service of doing the things that need to be done. Yeah, Farage's hero of the 20th century was Enok Powell. Yeah, I think so. Well, he would never say that today. Do you know what? I am so glad you've raised that, Jack. I am actually delighted you've raised that because it's completely true.

Farage begged Enoch Powell to endorse him before his death. He actually refused to do so, but he begged Enoch Powell to do so. Do you think Farage would have the bravery today to go on the British bashing corporation, Wokai TV, sly news and say, Enoch Powell is my hero? No, he would not. So what you're expecting us to do is trust this old Farage, when new Farage would never say this stuff. But the point is, again, it's not new Farage, it's the same Farage.

And now he's been the further out from power. The winner is he last praised Enoch Powell publicly. He's a comedian, Jack. He's a comedian. He's a comedian. But the point is like, he's kind of. We're kind of missing the point. What do you think the point is Albi? What do you think he's a secret communist now? Like, yeah, what's the point? Do you want me to make my point or do you want to

carry on talking over me? Fine. Okay. So Enoch Powell and Jacob Rees-Mogg has said this and I tend to agree with him, but toxified the debate on immigration. He's a Tory. Hang on. He talked. He was a Tory. The way he, I know he was a Tory. The way he spoke about immigration in the 1960s, toxified the debate so much. And it gave a, a racist trope to concerns about immigration that still plagues discussions around immigration today. So I would argue when it comes to Enoch Powell, even though all of us around this table agree that immigration is too high, mass migration has been damaging to this country and people who come to this country need to make an effort to integrate. Because of what Enoch Powell said all of those years ago, it makes it more difficult to have honest conversations about migration because people say that it's...

That is a irony. Isn't this the irony? Isn't this the irony? Isn't this the irony? Nigel Farage gave the language around immigration. Would be a great leader of the Conservative Party today. He's speaking your language, Al B. Do you want a right-wing party to win a general election or not? Well, I don't think the conservatives are a right-wing party. Do you want a right-wing party to win a general election or not?

Well, I don't think Reform UK as a right-wing party. Do you want a right-wing party to win an election in the UK? or not. Yes, but I've just said I don't think the Conservatives are reform UK are acting like right-wing party. Restore is the only right-wing party. Okay. But then if you're a two-person... And you're a... In the US, UK, the Heritage

Party, there are a few different ones but in terms of at the moment where the standings are in the polls, I think Restore Britain is the only genuine right-wing party. And how is it doing in the polls? Yeah, very well. Three per cent. Three years ago, you would never have said reform would ever win. A lot can

happen in three years. In 2020, there's plenty of time for us to get our app together. Jack, Restore Britain's surge in the polls has actually matched or based what reform UK did in the early days. Absolutely. And actually much more.

I mean, the polling industry, and by the way, it's Nigel Farage who taught me about this, is totally corrupt. Oh, we're in agreement on this. And all about stopping new insurgent forces. So, for example, if you look at the UGov polling LB which Nadine's the how we founded.

member of reform. Yes, yes, yes. No longer affiliates. But if you look at the UKF polling, quite extraordinary because Restore Britain is not prompted. So someone calls you up and they say, do you want to vote toys? You want to vote reform? Do you want to vote the Greens? Do you want to vote Labor?

Restore Britain is not prompted at all, but a large proportion of people actually chose other and then voiced Restore Britain. So I don't believe the polling at the moment. I do think Restore Britain has surged in the polls. And it was your leader, by the way, Alby. So are you disagreeing with your hero now? Kemi Badernog, who went on sly news before the local elections and told Kathy Newman that Restore Britain is a new force that is splitting the vote on the right.

So Kemi, I thought was, and I praised her for doing so, actually. I thought she was being honest about it because it's Farage who's saying, no, no, we're not concerned about Restore. Kemi actually admitted that Restore is splitting the vote on the right. What we're going to see at the next election is... But she's right, isn't she? Is seats won on very slim majorities and tight margins? Yeah.

Which means a small number of votes going to any political party could swing a seat in a left-wing direction or a right-wing direction. So if there is a vote where 100 people make the difference between whether or not reform wins or Labour wins and 100 people vote for Restore Britain and Labour wins, then that is a bad outcome, isn't it? But we're talking about leadership here. And my point, Alby, is that actually the best thing for the Conservative Party would be for Nigel Farage to be your leader. I disagree with that, actually.

I disagree with that. Because actually, if we look at the approval ratings of the individual people leading the political parties, Kemi actually does the most favourably. What is actually dragging Kemi Star Down is the brand of the Conservative Party. I would actually put a different point to you. She's been pretty useful. I would put a different point to you, what reform UK needs is for Kemi Bade knock to be leader. Because ultimately, the problem is the Conservative Party brand is rubbish.

Kimmy's the institution as well. Kimmy's the brand is shot. Kimmy is lazy and complacency. She's not lazy. Why does she turn up late to everything? She's not late to everything. She does not turn up late to everything. She does not turn up late to everything.

That is not true. To keep it's not a more Gen Z flavor, because that's what this debate is about. Well, your leader is. is very old. And age is just a number. You're only as old as a woman you feel. But let's acknowledge that people I talk to, mates of mine who aren't politically inclined at all,

everybody our age that I know realizes that whether it's Kirstama, it's Kemi, it's Frij, are we really still doing this? No one cares, because they don't care about the people and the people realise that. We're so sick of this political class, it's London centric elite. We want real people at the health,

who actually know how to run a business, run a farm, like Rupert Lowe, we want genuine sort of the earth Brits, because that's what real Britain is. That's why this country is so great. Well, why is he not, Alby? Wasn't he the chairman of Southampton? Yes. Salts of the Earth? Yeah.

The chairman of a football club. Oh, what? Is everyone sort of the earth apart from the chairman of Southampton? Who cares? I just wouldn't describe someone that was the chairman. He's got an entrepreneur. Come on, Albi. Come on, Albi.

Come on, Albi. This section is about leadership. So please, please, go for Rupert Lowe. what is wrong with Rupert Lowe? What don't you like about it? I don't understand what the appeal of Rupert Lowe is from what you have been saying. You're talking about real people, salt of the earth.

Rupert Lowe, when I see Rupert Lowe, he's not screaming salt of the earth to me. He's screaming the same. Well, why? Come on. Why? He's screaming the same type of political and social elite that have run this country for a very long time. Millionaire, privately educated. These are not Nigel Farage exactly the same thing.

You know, we talk about these people if they're a new political class. These are the same types of people as David Cameron, Tony Blair, they're all the same kind of people. Oh, great. He's been in business. And look, why have we got this stigma

about millionaires in this country, by the way? I don't know. You're using a millionaire is a bad thing. It's not, I'm not. I'm not. You're railing against elites when your party leader is the same kind of elite as everyone else is.

I think I think we're a million. would agree on that and Lee Alby. And I think the problem the problem with Rupert Lowe is he's far too close to the Conservative Party. Recently when it was on with J.R.M. on G.B. News, he said, he praised Kemi, say, what a great deal she's done.

He said, yeah, lots of people who said, oh, if Rupert Lowe just took over the Conservative Party, it would be fine. Wrong. The Conservative Party's rotten to its core as an institution with the people in there. So why did you take on so many Conservatives? He was put on a select committee by the Conservatives

as a different party. That's crazy to have that done historically. I mean, you've far too close to the concern. Is that anybody else? Alby, you have to admit, Kemi Badenock is clearly keeping the door open to the possibility of some type of union with Rupert Lowe, isn't she?

And that should concern you as restore supporters. I think it would be wise for all of the parties on the centre right in this country to keep an open mind as to what the best way is to ensure that there isn't some crazy coalition between Labour and the Greens and the Lib Demi and do you honestly think Kimmy Bejanoch has done a good job as leader of the opposition, are we?

Because why are people talking much, much more about Nigel Farage and Rupert Lowe than they are about Kimi? Quite often she has been in PMQs over the past couple of years and totally failed to hold the most unpopular government pretty much of all time to account. It's open goals for her, and yet...

Well, first of all, I'd say I think in this discussion is the most time I've spent talking about Rupert Lowe since he was elected as an MP. So I'm not sure that everyone is talking about Rupert Lowe. On the point about, well, maybe we're in different circles then, clearly. But when it comes to Nigel Farage, yeah, everyone is talking about Nigel Farage. I don't agree with you. But I'm asking about Kimi. I don't agree with you and what you say about Kemmy. I don't agree that she is not holding this government to account.

I don't agree with that at all. You look at her, week in, week in, week out, in prime minister's questions. She's doing an absolutely excellent job at holding the government. She wants to be prime minister. Really?

Yes. No one else wants her to be prime minister. I say that for free. Well, I think more people want her to be prime minister than Rupert Lowe if we judge the polls. In 2019, we'll see if that comes true. I really doubt. Do you know what proportion of the population

even know who Rupert Lowe is? Oh, it's very much more than you think. Do you know what the proportion is? Does he have quite high name recognition? I'd say so. Alby, you're trusting a poll by GB News. Now, you know better than anyone that GB News is a propaganda channel

run by Nigel Farage, who is a major shareholder in that business. I really don't think we can trust a poll. I am not. By CB News. In fact, the LP just did a new one last week. I think the previous stuff he talked about had been in GB News.

Oh, yeah, but it's the same company. Yeah, it's the same company. So come on. Sure. But I mean, obviously, one was commissioned. by G.B. News and one recently wasn't. But also, to be honest, I don't think name recognition should actually matter on this front. I mean, very, very few French people knew who Emmanuel Macron was two years before he became

president of France. What we want is someone who actually is going to be an insurgent force. So to me, the name recognition thing doesn't matter so much. Yes, everyone knows who Farage is, but actually, in some ways, that's a weakness, Jack. No baggage. No, I don't think. A lot of All of baggage with Farage. I think, again, if you look at, you know, going back to Gen Z, if you look at who is their most popular among Gen Z, it's Farage by a mile and then low, probably next, and then Kemi way down at the bottom.

I'm definitely sure. On the right, of course, yes, as we mentioned earlier, Gen Z is more blessed. So how is it how is that we get the majority of people who are, who loves Zach Polanski to even consider voting for you? Well, how are you going to get into voting for Kim? And that's why 2029 is so critical. because of the demographic shifts that we're having.

I think that is actually the more interesting discussion. Well, Rupert is adored by young men. Completely adored by young men. A small section, but yes, that is true. There are now a small and probably growing group of people who like Rupert Lowe, seeing on like Instagram reels, on social media, etc. However, that is still, now these are fervently loyal supporters of Rupert Lowe. Rupert Lowe.

But that was the Bernie Sanders of British politics. And old man who is adored, well, he never got the chance to run for president, did he? Because there was a stitch up within the Democratic Party to make Hillary Clinton the nominee. So look, I don't know, I don't know, but it's very clear that there is a big division on leadership. I want to move on though. Because as the woke mind virus seems to be losing its grip on society, identity politics is still being pushed by the left-wing political class. and even some of those on the right. But do Gen Z right-wingers wish to see it cast into the shadows

or to remain within the political conversation to keep wielding power? Let's clash on this now with Ex-Big Brother Star Restore, Britain supporter, George Gilbert, Conservative Party member Albi Amman Kona, an independent journalist and reform UK staffer Jack Hadfield. So Jack, you've got 30 seconds. identity politics, should it stay or should it go? I mean, there's less of the question on should it stay or should it go versus will it? And I think, no, that's the definite thing for Zoomers now. Identity politics is going to be firmly part of whatever politics we have now

in the way that I think that people who didn't think of themselves in identity politics terms, obviously young white men and our thinking of themselves are, you know, actually, I care about my country, I care about my identity as an Englishman, as a Brit. You know, I care about that community identity. So that's going to increase 100%. Times up. George Gilbert. Restore Britain's view, 30 seconds.

Go. Well, I think this is more of a personal view. I would like to see identity politics disappear. However, humans are social animals. We desire to be a part of a collective, be that religion or whatever else. As we become a more secular society, people are either, verging towards these political organisations, like Extinction Rebellion, to name but one,

or maybe a football club. But if we can harness the power that being British and feeling patriotic can give to young people, then I think will be a lot more sane and actually it will come with a lot more benefits. Time's up. I'll be MN Kona. Should identity politics go?

We need to move beyond identity politics in this country. I think it has been such a destructive force on society. And I'm really disappointed actually to start seeing this identity politics start to infect parts of the right. Chemi has been clear on identity politics from the beginning. She's reeled against it. She has brought clarity where there has been madness, especially with the trans issue and on race relations issues, Kemi Badock has a track record of promoting meritocracy and tackling identity politics. Time's up. Albi, I want to pick up on you to begin with, because you actually found

fame running an organisation, Conservatives against racism. Am I correct? You know you're correct. So you now say, oh, restore Britain or Reform UK are leaning into identity politics. But what that feels to me that you're saying is that you care about racism when it comes to black people or Asian people or other ethnic groups. But all of a sudden when the native population, when the white population are saying we are sick of anti-white racism, you want to move on from it. Please make that make sense. When did I say that? Well, I've just listened to your opening statement.

What did I say that made you think I... Well, you said we need to move on. We need to move on from identity. Yes. You think we shouldn't move on from identity politics. I'm not saying that, but I'm pointing out that you run an organization, conservatives against racism, which is literally the definition of, I don't know. I don't think that is correct.

And you have played a lot of identity politics in your time. Such as, and look, you can say this is fine. A lot of people think it's fine. Celebrating. Oh, Kemi is a, you know, a black Nigerian woman and she's our leader. Oh, it's great that we have this mix of like women in the party and this mix of gay people in the party. And LGBTQ plus trans, you're a member of that organization, right? the conservative group, aren't you?

You're part of that. Do you have an issue with the reformed Jewish alliance? Well, actually, yes. Yes, I do. And it's nothing to do with Jewish people, it's to do with the fact that our country is in such trouble. I no longer give a damn about the makeup of a particular political party or people who are saying,

oh, restore Britain's branch meetings are full of white people. Like, I do not give a damn about that. But what I'm just trying to understand with you, specifically based on your opening statement because I picked up, tell me if I'm wrong, if I'm wrong and I've misinterpreted what you've said, then please pick me up on it. But my interpretation of your argument

is that you were saying you were concerned that restore and reform supporters seem to be leaning into all of a sudden being concerned about the native population, the white population fighting against anti-white racism and that's why you now want to move on. Having played identity politics in the Conservative Party for years, for years.

I am concerned that I see... But was my interpretation correct? No, it was not correct. Okay, well explain what you mean. I am concerned that we are seeing a copy and pasting of what the woke left did to identity politics on the right. And I see the Green Party doing it with Muslims and I see the right doing it with white working class boys, for example.

And if we are going to Balkanize society and only talk about certain groups of people and say that these certain groups are important and we care more about one group than the other, then that is not going to lead to good outcome. So that's why I talk about a concern with the right embracing identity politics. I completely reject what you have said

about my group Conservatives Against Racism. That group is not about identity politics. Are you a member of the conservative LGBT group? That is a political group. of gay conservatives that have come together for campaigning, for campaigning reasons. It's a group of people who happen to be gay, who like that campaign with each other. Jack, just before you come in, I just want to clarify, because this is an important point. It's LGBT.

So what? Well, so it is absolutely plain identity politics. If there are trans conservatives that come out in campaign, is that a problem? Okay, okay, Jack. It's a group of people that like to campaign with each other. who happen not to be straight. Is there an issue with that? Okay, all right, Albie.

I genuinely do not, hang on. Very quick question. No, no, no, no, no. I would like to know if a group of people who happen not to be straight who like to campaign with each other and socialise with each other, is that an issue? Well, the issue that I have,

and obviously I'm speaking as a gay man, is that I have a huge problem with gay men being lumped in, especially by conservatives, into the same group as trans people, because I think it's a totally different. debate. I agree. And I actually think the trans debate has become innately homophobic. But actually, my bigger point is, is that I'm not a member of any of these groups. I despise it. I hate identity politics. I don't give a damn if you're gay. If you want to dress up like a

woman, but I'm not going to say you're a woman. Where you are from, like, I don't want to play these identity politics. However, however, what I find ironic is that all of a sudden, you seem to be suggesting that it's bad to tackle anti-white racism. That's my issue. You said that. You said that. Are you imagining things? Alby, can I just ask a very quick question? Well, do you campaign against anti-white racism? I was literally just about to ask this. In conservatives against racism, have you, and I literally do not know this, this is not a gotcha question. did you ever do anything, any campaign or highlight any instances of anti-white racism? We have, I have personally spoken out against things like affirmative action, for example.

I support Sophie Corcoran's case against 10,000 interns where she is saying she feels discriminated against because she couldn't apply for an internship through that scheme because she's not from an ethnic minority. So why are we trying to come for me for this issue when actually we all agree around this table? You still have not answered my question. What is the issue with people who happen to be? Well, I've explained. You haven't explained actually, not to my satisfaction.

You have not explained what your issue, if you do have an issue with Conservatives. Well, I do have an issue with LGBT. campaigning with each other. Well, I have a huge issue with LGBT groups and I have a huge issue with the fact that that group within the Conservative Party was captured by Stonewall,

captured by trans extremism, actually allowed the Conservative Party to go down a very, very dangerous path, in part thanks to Carrie Johnson. Not whilst I've been on the committee. Well, that organisation was captured by Stonewall. It absolutely was. We have no affiliation with Sto.

Well, you hosted, you previously hosted an event at the Conservative Party conference with Stonewall attended by Carrie Johnson. So, so there are... Before I was on the committee. Okay, fine. Before I was... Fine.

But the point is, you are on the committee. And I can say in my tenure, we do not have an affiliation with Sto. Okay, well, I think our position, our position on the issue of trans and self-ID. Conservative about being part of an organisation called the LGBT Conservatives. There is nothing conservative about that. I am sick of identity politics being played. Full stop. I really am.

That's my point. Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Okay. Do you want to come in, George, and talk about. where the Restore Britain argument on this is because I would argue, and this is I thought what Albie was arguing, is that Restore Britain is plain identity politics, but in a different way,

because it is very, very important seemingly to most restore Britain supporters where people deride from. Ethno-politics, you might call it. Yes, some call it that. Some people call it ethno-nationalism. I do believe that many restore supporters, like these anon accounts on X, you see, they are painting restore to be something they haven't said they explicitly are. Well, they've actually seen quite the opposite.

Exactly. Yeah, I think Rupert Lowe said, I think he was with Winston Marshall, it may have been. He said, you know, I don't care about the color of anyone's skin. All I care about is that you contribute here. Again, ironically, you know, sounds a bit more to the left of Nigel where he says, you know, if you could come here, you know, have a good job, pay tax. He was like, that's great. Rupert Lowe in favour of legal migration as long as I have a job.

Well, within reason. But is that not also Nigel's position? Well, I think they're far, far tougher on this, you know, in terms of the actual migration things, especially. But the point is, Rupert, Nigel is not pretending to be this ethno-nationalist, whatever. The supporters of reform don't believe that Nigel is an ethno-nationalist. the supporters of Restore, and a lot of people within Restore, I do believe that the party is standing up for white men, etc. When there is, in terms of the ideas, both Farage and Lowe are civic nationalists.

What's wrong with standing up for white men? There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm saying like... Well, you seem to be suggesting there is. No, no, no. I'm saying there's a difference in like the conceptions of civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism. Both Farage and Lowe are obviously civic nationalists, Whereas a lot of restore people are more ethnic nationalists and believe the party will push a more ethno nationalist sign.

As I said earlier, Gen Z want a leader that is willing to have the uncompromising views and the raw honesty that we haven't been getting for decades now. Rupert Lowe is the only leader prepared to have these uncomfortable conversations that are anti-establishments. So you've got Kemi and Farage saying, oh, I'm anti-trans, I don't believe in transgenderism, X, Y, and Z. they're the low-hanging fruit. I feel sore for trans people in that sense, actually,

because why aren't your leaders, ballsy enough, like my leader, to actually make clear what it is to be British, as in... I don't think they have, have they? Restore spokespeople have said, to be British is almost like a spectrum. So if you are practicing Christian values,

then you are more British than somebody who doesn't. If you have English lineage, then you're more British than somebody who doesn't. But it doesn't go to mean that you aren't a British citizen, only British by ethnicity. So if somebody's a black Caribbean immigrant who's a Christian, are they more British than a white atheist, whose family been ever a thousand years?

Because I haven't got the gumption like Rupert Lowe does to actually... I was it listening because he interrupted me. Okay, well, we'll let Cherkasker's question. Go on then. Yeah, and I think I'll add to this. And I think Albie, you know, you've debated Charlie Downs on this identity stuff before.

Restore have an idea that they are far more to the right And their entire point, as you're saying, is that they are more hard line on the sort of immigration and identity demographics issues. But what has Restore actually said on this? Again, when they've been questioned multiple times, they go all wishy-washy, they can't say who is in English and who's British. Watch Charlie Downs getting skewed by Nanaqueer on GV News a while back. He couldn't say, he's, he tries to say that, you know, you have to be ethnically English to be English. And then she says, well, am I English? He says, well, no, of course you are.

So the point is restore, if they're going to be to the right of reform in that way, you're going to have to have to. But that's not going to be acceptable to many resource. The question that Jack asked that I thought, you have to crystallise what this identity is and what this position is. They have going to be. Okay, I'll be coming. The question that Jack asked that I thought was very interesting, you said,

if you were a practicing Christian, practicing Christian values, you're more British than someone that does not. So would- Somebody who believes in Christian principles, not necessarily a practicing Christian who goes to Okay, okay. So is a Jamaican Commonwealth migrant who is a devout Christian more British than a white, British-born, atheist, that votes for the Green Party and thinks that Christian values are evil? That's obviously insane to have that take of a citizenship.

In your view, you gave the spectrum that you gave on that spectrum, which one is more British? By ethnicity or by citizenship? No, no, no, no, you gave your spectrum, you didn't mention ethnicity. You spoke about values. You spoke about values. Well, one's from Jamaica. No, but what is the difference between... Can I just come in?

Can I just come in, because this is where I find these debates very odd. Very, very odd. He started it. Because fundamentally, ethnicity is undeniable. Cannot change. Of course, the person who... is born in England or has English blood is ethnically more English. That, to me, is absolutely clear.

Albi, what I'm interested in, though, is that you have spent a whole load of your career fighting against racism, right? So you clearly do believe that race and ethnicity plays some role in politics today. but are you with the Shibana MacMood sort of Kirstama line, which is that actually anyone can be English and Shabana MacMood is English while at the same time she's slagging off Little England and saying that she's quite embarrassed by that. Like to me it's very clear. And I say this is someone who is ethnically English born in New Zealand. I've been very open about where that puts me. English identity does matter and it should play a part. I take the Douglas Murray approach that it's not everything, but it certainly is something. What do you mean is something? Of course, English identity is something.

There's a difference between English ethnicity. There's a point, there's a point, there is a difference between someone being civically English, which I think anyone who lives and is born in England can be civically English, and someone who is ethnically English. So like Nana are Queer is not ethnically English. Well, no, she's ethnically Garnayan. Just like I'm half ethnically Garnayan, half ethnically English. We are all civically English, I would argue,

because everyone has a claim to civic Englishness. If you're born in this country, have a passport, participate in society, buy into the values of this country. Rubbish. You are civically English. Rubbish. I think it's a bit more than that. See, that's where I totally disagree.

It's more than that. Because look at all of these terror attackers, Albi. I'm sorry, like, seriously, Axel Rue. Ruda-Kabana is civically English? No. No. And I think maybe that's where there's a difference. Maybe that's where there is a fundamental... Can I... Can I... You put it out of store on this, which seems like a good to compromise. I was doing a debate at the Oxford Union a couple of weeks ago now. And the question was about whether or not Britishness, so not Englishness, was a birthright or a choice. And I argued that it was a birthright in that if you are, you're made in this country,

Britain has to claim. Britain has to claim that. And that goes for good people who are made in this country and bad people who are made in this country. Ian Huntley, awful man. Didn't he get murdered recently in prison? Or he was attacked and then dying later on. He is British.

In the same way, he's civically British and ethnic English, but civically British. But what about ex-Ruda Cabana? I'm coming. You have a really great way. Okay, get on with it. Ask me a question just I'm about to make the point

of the question you're about to ask. He is civically English in the same way that Axel Rood-Cabana is civically English. No, he's not. They are both, they are evil people

born and made in this country. He is a Rwandan, yes, he's a Rwandan, but civically English. To be fair, even the puny rules of what it means to be British by citizenship,

he is technically right. But that's the rules that need to change. No, because Albie is saying English. He is, He's actually not even civically English. He's civically Welsh. Fine. Can I set out a stall on this, which I think is, okay, we've had mass demographic change.

We've had mass migration. Now, we're going to be able to undo a lot of what's happened in the previous years. But I don't think, even in the most optimistic, you know, scenarios of restore supporters, this country will never be, you know, a completely ethnically British or English thing ever again. There will always be some shades of ethnic minorities in this country. Well, it never was in historically either. Well, yes, but they're all part from, you know, northwestern Europe. That's a whole different kettle of fish. Okay.

But, but I think. So I think we have to talk about now, and this is fair, in terms of being fair to the people who've historically been on these islands, that we say that to be English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, etc., are ethnicity. Soella Bravman said that she said, I'm not English for English to mean something has to be about ancestry, heritage and ethnicity. And she was right. And Matt Goodwin said the same. But they also said is that British can be this overarching, I think.

identity that can be about the civilizational cultural stuff. So I think that, I think in order to be fair to the people of who've been on these islands for a thousand years, we should, we didn't have to if we didn't have mass migration demographic change, have these arguments and get into the nitty gritty of it. This is now a serious part of the political debate and this debate will go on for a couple of reasons because we have identity politics being played by the soft right. And we also have people like Shabana Mahmood saying, oh, I'm English while at the same time, slamming England saying she doesn't support little England. So this is going to be an ongoing

conversation, but I'm glad that we've started it here. Young men in Britain have been told for years now that their masculinity is toxic and that their ambition is evil, resulting in them falling behind at school, fewer and fewer going into adult life to start a family. And it's also been reported recently that more in one and three young men were, living with their parents in 2025. Our left-wing political class clearly want to see them fail. The stats show that this evil plot is succeeding. So can any of the current political contenders on the right be trusted to ensure young men have a bright future in Britain today? Let's clash with Restore Britain's George Gilbert, the Conservatives, Albi Ammancona and Reform UK's Jack Hadfield.

So, George, you have 30 seconds to explain why Restore Britain is the best for young men. Last year, 700,000 people fled the UK, three quarters of which were under the age of 35. Where are these people going? Well, they're hungry, they're entrepreneurial and their tax-paying citizens, ambitious for a better life. So where are they going? They're going to Dubai, to Portugal, maybe the US. places where taxes are fairer. Restore Britain will give them that here in the UK.

They want to install the lowest corporation tax in Europe. They want to scrap the IR 35, which is simply not fair. 100%. Okay, good stuff. And they're the only party supporting ambitious young Brits like myself to keep us here. Al BNcona, 30 seconds. Why are the Conservatives best for young men? The Conservatives are the best for young men

because the Conservative Party has a comprehensive strategy to help those who are currently claiming benefits get back into work. It's all well and good to talk about IR-35. It's all well-and-good to pay about corporation tax. Very few young men will be paying those taxes. What is important for young people is that they have the skills and the ability to get into the job market,

into the jobs of the future, that they have secure and prosperous careers and also bringing down those taxes on working people. Jack Hadfield, 30 seconds. why is Reform UK best for young men? Well, Nide Farage is loved and adored by many young men. I think he still has the biggest, biggest, there's a million followers on TikTok or so on,

because everybody loves him and the reason, and because his policies will actually, again, reform this country to back where it should be. More importantly, mostly on immigration, if there's no people coming in, well, then the house price are going to go down because there's not enough people coming in there. There'll be less crime on the streets.

You'll be able to reassert yourself and build a family where you don't have to worry about creepy asylum seekers coming in and doing whatever. So, Reform UK will solve immigration, the number one issue in this country and that will cascade to a number of effects. I mean, Albi, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we're talking here about young

men. We are. I don't know what that was to do with young men, but we'll come on to that. Building a brighter future. But see, I actually, I actually think we're a real problem. It's affecting them. Can I just pull Jack up on that? Because immigration won't be sorted out on the reform. Reform of

said they won't let any more in, they want zero immigration, the problem's already here. The genie is out of the bottle. We need to reverse migration and that's what only restore are willing to do. You two puny. You ain't going to do it. Reform conservatives, get out of here. We

want real talk, real action. And only restore will give us that. The puny party is going to deport millions of people with their lifestyle policies. We'll see you as a last laugh, pal. See, what's interesting to me is that we talk about young men here and actually Albi, you're someone who has been focused on demographics in terms of fighting racism.

Now, I would argue it's actually something that we need to specifically talk about in this case. It is not all young men. It is specifically young white working class men who are the most deprived in this country, Alby, and are not spoken about as a group that needs desperate focus. Right, so first of all, it's not only young white working classmen. I've actually done a lot of work in this area. That's one of the most underprivileged groups in this society. I'm going to perhaps inform you of something. If you actually look at the metrics that we talk about when it comes to white working class men in their life outcomes, education, employment, etc. There is one group which has almost exactly the same figures.

we're talking about like maybe a 0.1% difference on all of these metrics, and that's actually Black Caribbean men. And what I don't like about the conversation on the left and on the right is that the left will focus on the ethnic minorities, the right as you have will just focus on white people, when actually there are two groups for whom I think the problems are the same and the outcomes are very similar. And if we only focus on one of them, as you did just then,

and as the left does, then that is an issue for. for me when actually the issue is affecting these groups, family breakdown, not good access to opportunities, they're not being pushed by their parents to do well at school because a lot of their parents, unfortunately, compared to other ethnic groups, do not see this value in education. We need to be changing these things for both of those groups and not just white working class men. This is something that affects the Black Caribbean community and the white working class community almost exactly the same. And what's even more interesting about that, is they are the two most well-integrated groups in this country.

In most Black Caribbean families, even white working-class families, they will have white working-class relatives if they're Black Caribbean or Black Caribbean relatives or mixed-race relatives if they're white working class. These are two groups that are very intertwined, and actually we need to be looking at them both, rather than just saying white working-class men have an issue. It's not just white working-class men who are suffering. We need to be lifting all groups up who are not doing as well as a,

as others. Okay, well, here are some stats. 36% of white British boys on free school meals, the least likely group in the entire country to go to university, full stop, full stop, 40% less likely to enter higher education than disadvantaged black boys. Which group of black boys?

Black African or Black Caribbean? I don't know. Well, exactly. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. No, it does matter, actually. Because we're talking about...

Three times the male average in terms of suicide. Dan. Overall. The worst school results. Dan, but what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, if you actually, if you look at a graph, right, if you actually look at the O&S statistics, where it breaks it down into South Asian, British Indian, British Pakistani, British, British, Bangladesh, mixed race, black African, black, African, black, black, white.

the white and black Caribbean groups have extremely similar outcomes. You're looking at something which doesn't even break up the groups because there's a difference between Black African and Black Caribbean. Well, no, I'm looking at the research that I did on this yesterday, and I don't have that broken down. But what I do know, but what I do know is that only 13 to 14% of poor white boys make it to uni, a pathetic 2% getting to top high tariff universities.

Now, the reason... It's very similar for Black Caribbean, and that's my point. Okay, but the reason that I have raised this, George, is because I feel like we talk all the time and we hear all the time in the mainstream media about underprivileged groups based on identity politics, but we don't specifically talk about underprivileged white working class boys. Well, I believe the working class, regardless of ethnicity, actually, are overlooked

because our political class are so... They spend too much time in London, I feel. I live in rural Britain, out in Sticks in Rural Essex, and I'm a Gen Z person. So I feel I've got stake in this argument. But I just don't feel like I've ever been acknowledged in policymaking by any party, be that label conservative. And you say that as a young man overall,

or specifically as a young white man? As a young man overall, as I say, I don't really like this whole divisive catastrophization of political language now. I want us all to be a united Britain. That's in all of our interests. So I think we can all agree then that young men are in a bad, bad place. I mean, even if you don't break the suicide rates, Jack, down by ethnicity, this is an epidemic for young men.

And actually, I mean, it caused my departure in a weird way from GB News when I was having a discussion with Lawrence Fox about the comments that Ava Santina had made where she was completely dismissive. of the fact that there should be a minister for men. Because of this suicide epidemic, it is just dismissed consistently by the left in this country. Yeah, it's terrible. And it really has been for years.

And, you know, Farage has talked about this in a number of ways. First, he's mentioned the idea that young men are being more feminized. Now he talks about the feminization of young men in terms of, especially you can look at the workplace now. For example, one thing that was often talked about, You know, when I started getting to politics 10 years ago. I'm not. I don't really know what the feminization of men has got to do with suicide.

I'm a feminine man and I've been suicidal. I mean, what's that got to do with it? No, I'm talking about the wide issue. I'm not talking about suicide specifically in this instance. I'm talking about issues that had affected young men. So what, men are no longer allowed to be men because we have people like Sam Smith who are treated as heroes these days. Yes.

And you see in the education system, for example, where things have been more oriented towards girls had been universities, more women in there. And also now, because of this, now, feminists always used to talk about, like, always used to talk about the gender pay gap, which was, you know, 77 cents the dollar, you know, that a woman makes from a man makes. Now, if you broke that down,

and this started about maybe about five years ago or so. In women of basically our age demographic or slightly now, so it's now would be people under 40, women are then out-earning men quite substantially. If you look at this in the workplaces, I think Helen Andrews, I believe, did a good piece on this in terms of the HR, the HRification of many businesses, which was then very female-oriented. Farage also talked about generally, like, this is why a lot of young men, the whole anti-male perspective, why people go for people like

Andrew Tate, who I am not a fan of at all, but Farad said, and also Farage said, he is like, look, you can understand this. You know, when you're getting bombarded with, you are a man, often white man, but often it's just man, you are evil. So why did you feel you had to say just now that you're not a fan of him? Mm. Well, because, you know, he's goes too far on the other end of the spectrum in being like, it's too, there's not actually, we need to return to a balance of how we treat each other. You know, it shouldn't be a battle of the sexes.

But, you know, it's the same thing. What is it the new statement? What's been accused of? What's it? Well, a lot of men have been accused of right. What is it that he's been accused of? Sorry. Sexual assault.

And you don't think that's serious. No, I try to see. Has he been found guilty of any crime? Alby. No, no, no, seriously. In any country? No, he has not. How many women?

There is a huge witch hunt against Dan who take. So, Dan, so Dan, would you say that, let's say we go to Bradford, okay? And there is someone who is accused of being involved in grooming gangs who has not been convicted. Pakistani Muslim rape gangs. But many, many young white working class women accuse this particular man of raping them. But because we all know it's so difficult

for rape allegations to be prosecuted in this country, it's not, he's not actually charged. Would you believe, would you believe those women who made those accusations? Well, what I find absolutely extraordinary, I don't know. Number one, I don't know. I'm certainly not in the place

Alby, trust me, of believe all accusers, because I know a lot of people make things up for political reasons. So that's my first point. Second point would be, I find it astonishing that the British Bashing Corporation has spoken more about Andrew Tate. And they care more about Andrew Tate who ran a dodgy sex cam business, which should not be celebrated by the way. But they care more about that than the epidemic rape and a mass. scale of tens of thousands of white working class young British girls because it suits their political narrative and the Pakistanian Muslim rape gangs do not. I don't know how you could definitely talk about proportionality here for sure. I don't know how we can sit here and have a

conversation where you've just dismissed the allegations against I haven't dismissed him. You put words in our mouth. You did. In my view, in my view, you seem to be dismissing the legal system. In my view, the tone that you took was very dismissive. I don't know how you can sit here and take that tone about a man who has been, who has been accused of rape by many, many women. And who spews out, who spews out, who spews out, in my opinion, some of the most misogynistic and sexist content on the internet. But do you believe in innocent and proven guilty? Dan, I have not finished my point. I will answer your question after I finish, finish answering your first question. Please stop interrupting me like that. Apologies.

Apology accepted. And then go on a tirade about rape gangs. These two issues are interconnected. One of the reasons the rape gangs went unpunished for such a long time is because people did not believe the women who were making those allegations. So we're all on the same side here. I just want a bit of consistency. Don't be dismissive of Andrew Taked and then go on and talk about the rape gangs.

Can I just make one point though? Because they were covered up for a very different reason, Alby. they were covered up because it was not politically palatable. The girls were not believed. Yeah. No, but no, but they, they, that's not that. It really isn't that. They were covered up because it did not suit the political narrative

for there to be a massive issue with Pakistani Muslim men raping young white girls at scale. The police revolved this, Labour councillors, all these people wanted to hide this up. But talking about the BBC coverage of this, as I said, obviously, as I said, I mentioned I'm not a fan of Tate, you know, he didn't need to get into sexual assaults up

because I think the stuff he says, again, is too far the other way and is too, you know, again, we need to get back to a healthy balance to the battle of the sexism. And that leads to more division, but you can understand why if young men are being attacked here, they're going to go to someone who's saying, I'm standing up for you. You know, you don't need to be bullied. I'm strong, but he's got the wrong solutions to this. But anyway, just on proportionality, again, you're right. It is insane that the only reason the BBC is covering this is because it is a thing from the right,

giving more coverage like spooky, scary Andrew Tate as opposed to, The Pakistani grooming gangs. For the record on the Pakistani rape gangs, Restore Britain is the only party that have said they would, whether they started the rape gang inquiry, and they would deport all collaborators in the rape gang. Actually, hang on, I'm going to, hang on, I've got to pull you up on that. I'll put you off that very specifically.

For these white working class girls. Rupert Lowe said, you literally tried to get, your party literally tried to get Rupert Lowe arrested for having that position. Well, we could go into that, to the second, but just first, Rupert Lowe said very specifically, in a space, I believe, an ex-space, I believe it was Basil the Great. He said, I have never and will not deport whole communities of British passport holders. That's not my point. I said collaborators of the rape gangs. Great, but he's also, he has also said that if people have in any way, broken the law, don't contribute to society, they go.

They go. If they're not if they're again, if they're British passport holders is a different kettle of fish. broken the law, you can strip people of this, you are of British citizenship, in specific ways. Looking into the policy, it seems like there's various bits here or there. But obviously, back to the, you know, the allegations that you mentioned. Now, obviously, I don't know what happened there. I know that the Casey in the, in the parliamentary harassment inquiry found that there was evidence, evidence of harassment going on there. Obviously, when it comes to all of what's been talked about.

You know, we, the police investigated, Zia Yusufs, cooked up death threat claim and chose not to even pass anything on to

the CPS. Again, like, I obviously don't know, yeah, what happened there. I think overall, generally, again, at the time, I think it was overall a bad thing that there was then bad blood and falling out between that, because I'm someone who likes to see

the right united. I mean, I'll be, as a final point this is great for you, isn't it, in a way? I presume you think that if restore and reform sort of cancel each other out, report each other to the police and have this death battle that the conservatives will emerge through the middle. And it is interesting, even though I don't think I could ever vote for the Conservative Party again. The Conservative Party vote has not collapsed in the way that someone like I would have predicted. And in fact, the Reform UK national polling, even though the performance obviously at the local elections was incredible, that the national polling is collapsing.

So it isn't game over yet, is it? That the battle for the right is on. No, the battle for the rights on. And yeah, I mean, I agree. I really should have brought some popcorn for that second. I was just sat here watching it happen. I could see you're loving it. You're loving it.

I'm not going to say anything because these guys are just killing each other. And that's why this entire problem. But actually, we can have this and I win. This is the problem. Whatever. Someone's got to win. Someone does have to win. But the same things happen when the Conservative Party is having a go

at reform people or the rest of all parties having a show. Like you have done today. But we've all done today. But Dan, come on. You invited us on your show. you wanted us to argue that's what we've done. No, I genuinely, genuinely, I have really appreciated this today

because what I cannot stand, what I cannot stand at the moment is people who lecture and heck to me at the moment and say, oh, the right has to unite because you know what they mean by that? And I'm sure George and Albu, you agree. What they mean by that is you've got to back reform UK at any cost, shut up about any crazy thing

that Nigel Farage says or does, and I am not at the point of doing that. Did I vote for Reform UK at the last elections, the general election? Yes, I did. Do I completely rule out voting for them again? No, I don't because I think we all have to think strategically. We do. But do I think the battle for the right is over after the elections?

We should all just shut up and just accept as a complete state of complete that Nigel Farage is going to be prime minister. I'm sorry, I know lots of you will be saying, yes, Dan, you have to. And if you don't do that, you're not a patriot. But I'm not there yet. I think the battle for the right still has to play out. And actually, I think this discussion today shows that there is still a long way to go on that front. And it's split. You know, it's split.

And in some ways, Nigel is doing very, very well. But actually, Kemi has surprised a lot of people. And I think her leadership is absolutely secure. And when it comes to Rupert Lowe, he is a superstar. And I know you two don't want to hear that. But trust me, he is a superstar. And the idea that Rupert Lowe is not going to play a role in British politics in the future, I think, is for the birds. So, look, I've loved it today.

I've loved it. I've loved it. I've loved the debate. I thought it was fascinating and respectful. Thank you so much. That is Jack Hadfield. He is a brilliant, independent journalist. So I very much recommend you follow, but is now also, sadly, part of Reform UK. Joking, Jack.

I'm joking. Well, we can bring you back over as well at some time. You said you wouldn't rule it out. Come on, Dan, back to the teal team. Ammancona is of course a rising star of the Conservative Party. He formed the Conservatives Against Racism Organisation. And George Gilbert, well, he's a firebrand. He's a firebrand who was booted out of Reform UK after a stint on Big Brother.

But now supporting Restore Britain. Okay, thank you so much for your company today. We're moving over now to Substack for the Royal Uncanceled After Show. At this stage, we move off YouTube. and move to our own platform to continue the conversation there, you can sign up at www. www. outspoken.com. But remember, we are back live every weekday, 5pm UK time, midday Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Remember to hit subscribe right now if you're watching on YouTube.

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