Dan Wootton Outspoken - ROBERT JENRICK DEFECTS TO REFORM UK AS TORIES & NIGEL FARAGE PARTY ERUPT IN CIVIL WAR

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

BREAKING TODAY: It’s the end of the Conservative Party, as their one real hope on the right, Robert Jenrick, is brutally sacked by Kemi Badenoch over disloyalty for engaging in discussions with Nigel Farage about defecting to Reform UK. But Dan also thinks this is the beginning of the end of Reform, which is now an establishment party completely overrun by failed Tories attempting to save their dying political careers and ambitious Islamists wanting to become the first Muslim Prime Minister. He will reveal how Richard Tice and Zia Yusuf are the two most angry men in Britain over this development. And isn’t that the real problem. For the UK to be saved, we need politicians who put principles above power, but how does that stack up with Robert previously telling Outspoken that Nigel should retire. In his Digest Dan, who is aware of Jenrick’s thinking, will reveal why he decided to jump ship. Then we’re joined for the entire show by Carl Benjamin, founder of the independent media sensations Lotus Eaters. PLUS: Douglas Murray backs fears over Laila Cunningham being Reform UK’s mayoral candidate to take on Sadiq Khan simply because she is a Muslim. AND: The most shocking fight on GB News yet, as Nana Akua finally calls out the deeply disliked Tom Harwood live on air. THEN IN THE UNCANCELLED AFTERSHOW: Prince Harry’s delusional court case against the Daily Mail could finally ruin his reputation once and for all. We’ll preview what will go down next week with Tom Sykes of The Royalist Substack. Sign up to watch live or on demand and totally ad free at https://www.outspoken.live LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for new videos every day: https://youtube.com/@danwoottonoutspoken?si=-2BhmEbBSN1fyESS?sub_confirmation=1 ---------- Find the full audio show wherever you get your podcasts: Apple — https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dan-wootton-outspoken/id1762436723 Spotify — https://open.spotify.com/show/19Ltoneek2MSPL10CpSA1J?si=8f6d84e2db56448c ---------- Follow Dan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@outspokendan Follow Dan on Twitter: https://x.com/danwootton Follow Dan on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danwootton/ Follow Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danwootton/?hl=en #DanWootton#DanWoottonOutspoken#news#outspoken#uknews Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No spent, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Wooden. This is outspoken episode number 405. And breaking right now, Robert Jenrick has in the past few moments defected to Reform UK after a hysterical day of drama on the right of British politics. And I just want to say thank you to Kemi Baddok. This is the latest Christmas present I've ever had. The negotiations with Jen Rick are over. There's nothing more to be said or to be done. You've handed me on a plate, the man that is by far the most popular figure. 60% approval rating on Con Home compared to our own 38.

And you've perhaps today really done anything, more than anybody in history, to help realign the centre-right of British politics, which is much needed against a dreadful Labour government and increasingly worrying extreme left-wing. voice in this country. So I can't offer you drinks all round, but I'll buy Kemi lunch next week and say thank you. So it's the end of the Conservative Party as their one real hope in generic was brutally sacked by Kemi Badernaut for his disloyalty in this what was a successful bit, I guess, to bounce her leadership rival into an

announcement. This morning, I removed the Conservative whip from Robert Jenrick after dismissing him from the shadow cabinet. I was very sorry to be presented with clear, irrefutable evidence, not just that he was preparing to defect, but he was planning to do so in the most damaging way possible to the Conservative Party and his shadow cabinet colleagues. So do you know what? I'll give him a ring this afternoon. I mean, I'll give him the ring this afternoon. He said he ran for leadership. I might even buy him a pint, you never know. But I think this is also the beginning of the end of Reform 2, which is now an out-and-out establishment party completely overrun by failed Tories attempting to save their dying political careers

and ambitious Islamists wanting to become the first Muslim Prime Minister. On that note, I'll reveal How Zia Yusuf and Richard Tice are the two most angry men in Britain over this development. And isn't that the real problem? For the UK to be saved, don't we need politicians who put principles above power. But how does that stack up with what Robert told me here on outspoken? Yeah. But we have first passed the post. So what if the British public voted Reform UK the biggest party but required a conservative coalition deal to govern? Would you consider that? And would you serve in a cabinet with Nigel Farage's prime minister, for example? No, look, I want to, with all due respect, retire Nigel Farage, get back those voters we've lost, get back the Conservative Party into power. That's what we need as a country.

In my digest next, I am aware of Robert Jenrick's thinking and will reveal why he decided to jump ship. Then I'm joined for the entire show by Carl Benjamin, founder of the independent media sensation Lotus. Eaters. Also coming up on the show today, Douglas Murray backs fears over Laila Cunningham being Reform UK's Merrill candidate to take on Sadiq Khan simply because she is a Muslim. Andrew Gold's mortifying capitulation over his woke right label after he was owned by Steve Laws. Why can't he just say that England should be run by the English and the most shocking fight on GB News yet? As Nana Require finally loses it and and calls out that deeply disliked Tom Harwood live on here.

Honestly, you're not going to believe what went down. I will show you the extraordinary video. Then we're moving over to Substack for the Royal Uncanceled Aftershow with Tom Sykes. Big news, Prince Harry testifying in court on Thursday. We're going to preview it all. Of course, we will also reveal a new Greatest Britain and Union Jackass 2. Here are your nominees for the worst person in Britain today. Tom Harwood, A for mention, nominated by Darren Donaldson for his patronising takedown of Nana Require Live on Air.

He soon lived to regret that, he says. Ed Davy, nominated by the Grift Report for being addicted to X while calling for its suspension. Good point, actually, hadn't thought about that. And Shabana Mahmood, nominated by Matt Cass 48, who says they bowed to the community and banned Jews from attending a football match. The community won. the police buckled and the country lost. So that is the Home Secretary up against Ed Davies and Tom Howard. Let me know your thoughts, by the way, throughout the show. Is Robert Jenrick a game-changing move for Reform UK? Is this the end of the Conservative Party? Or actually, is it reform that needs to be more worried?

Fascinated in your view. We have a megapole running in the post tab as well. I'll let you know about that shortly. But now, let's go. So Robert Jenrick's defection to Reform UK has been able to prove everything that's wrong with British politics, where power comes before policies, where power comes before the bravery required to save the country. In the past few moments, Nigel Farage announced the ultimate prize from the Conservatives who are flooding his increasingly establishment party. I just want to say thank you to Kemi Badenock. This is the latest Christmas present I've ever had.

The negotiations with Genrick are over. There's nothing more to be said or to be done. You've handed me on a plate, the man that is by far the most popular figure. 60% approval rating on Con Home compared to our own 38. And you've perhaps today really done anything, more than anybody in history, to help realign the centre-righted British politics, which is much needed against a dreadful Labour government and increasingly worrying extreme left-wing voice in this country. So I can't offer you drinks all round, but I'll buy Kemmy lunch next week and say thank you. Moments earlier,

Kemi had tried to make the best of it. Saying that you thought that he was going to announce his defection at 4.30 this afternoon at this press conference, he says that's not the case and that you're panicking. What's your response to that? He doesn't know what I'm thinking. He was caught out this morning and he was absolutely gobsmacked at what had happened. And he's the one who gave us the clearest evidence yet. He admitted that he had been talking to Robert about the defection. And all I would say to Nigel is Rob's not my problem anymore. He's your problem now. Initially though things didn't actually go to plan

during this highly choreographed announcement. I will welcome Robert Jenrick into this room and into reform UK. He hasn't changed his mind, is he? He can't find him. Is he coming, Nick? It's been a funny old, this would be a very funny end of the day, wouldn't it? This really would put the tin lid on the whole thing. As you can tell, normally, when I unveil defections, it's all perfectly planned. Nothing ever leaks, and I'm known for nothing ever leaking, but this circumstance has been sprung upon us for reasons that were not under my own control sadly. Do we play music now or what are we doing?

Okay, folks, don't worry. But eventually, Genrick did turn up. After declaring on X that it was time for the truth, and here he is making his pick. I am convinced that Nigel and Reform will deliver the real change we need. Nigel knows. reform knows, the extraordinary challenges that Britain faces require a comprehensive plan to turn our country around.

That'll be a major priority for this year. As Nigel has said, we will set out to build and recruit the team needed to execute that plan. Yes, a few people will come from parties who have realised that those parties have lost their way, who unquestionably back the real change the reform will bring. I am convinced that Nigel and reform will deliver the real and media class. This was a great day because the fun had begun. Extraordinary breaking news we've just had in the last couple of moments. Kemi Badernock has sacked her shadow justice secretary, Robert Jenrick. The Tory leader has sacked.

Now, again, we know these were the two rivals for the Tory leadership back in 2024. There's no doubt at all that Robert Jenrik has continued with his leadership ambition, shall we say. We've got some extraordinary breaking news here. Kemi Bagnott, the Conservative, Kemi Baderich, the Conservative Party leader has sacked Robert Jenrick, who is her shadow justice secretary, tipped by many to be the next Tory leader, tipped by many to be the next shadow chancellor of Reform UK. There's been lots of rumours at Westminster

that Generate was thinking of jumping ship to reform. Is that lying behind this decision by Badek not to sack, but this is a big, big moment in the Conservative Party? Kimmy Bainach saying she has sacked Robert Jenrick from the Shadow Cabinet, removed the whip, and suspended his party members. with immediate effect, writing on X, saying, I was presented with clear irrefutable evidence. He was plotting in secret to defect in a way designed to be as damaging as possible to the shadow

cabinet colleagues and the wider Conservative Party. Indeed, Jimmy News, which is so focused on getting Nigel Farage elected as Prime Minister above anything else, actually decided to treat this event as entertainment, to the point where their Westminster Swamp presenter Tom Harwood, even got the popcorn out, live on air. Money is now on Robert Jenrick. I couldn't tell you what he was doing with that earlier on. On Robert Jenrick, defecting to reform,

and this is the reason he was sacked earlier on. We are definitely going to hear from Kemi Bajnock, who had just been found out that she emailed all Tory members first thing this morning about this story and linked into the post she put on social. media about Robert Jenrick being sat. It's been viewed 1.5 million times. So this is the reason we have got the popcorn out. Keep going, Dawn. Yeah, you just enjoy yourself. Every new facts that you give me. I'm just ingesting more popcorn. Today has been a made-for-TV political event, I guess,

with Kemi Badenok timing her bombshell announcement at the exact moment Farage was unveiling his new Scottish leader, who was of course another failed exit. story. What? Robert Genrek has just been sacked by Kemi Bednach because she said there was clear evidence he was plotting to defect. Was he in talks with you to defect to reform?

I'm very surprised that this news is broken. Are you, though? Well, I never reveal private conversations with anybody, which is why, you know, when people like Malcolm came to me to talk and he was a front bencher, nothing

ever leaked. So, I'm going to I'm going to say that I've had conversations with a number of very senior conservatives over the course of the last week, over the course of the last month, and a lot of them realize that for all the talk that Chem is doing better at PMQs, which is true, for all the talk of a supposed chemi bounce, a lot of them realize that on May the 7th, or should I say May 8th, the Conservative Party will cease to be a national party. They will all be obliterated in Scotland, in Wales,

in the Red Wall councils, if they're not all cancelled, we'll find out later on today about that. So there's a lot of people seriously considering their future. As far as Mr. Jenrick's concerned, of course I've talked to Robert Jenrick. Was I on the verge of signing a document with him? No, but have we had conversations? Yes.

So he was considering leaving the Conservatives and joining Reform UK? I think virtually every Conservatives is considering leaving the Conservatives, yes. Including Mr. Jenner. I think that's been in his mind, yes. I've little doubt it's been in his mind. At that moment, Kemi Badenok played her hand, posting this video to X revealing Genrik was gone with zero discussion. This morning, I removed the Conservative whip from Robert Jenrik after dismissing him from the shadow cabinet. I was very sorry to be presented with clear,

irrefutable evidence, not just that he was preparing to defect, but he was planning to do so in the most damaging way possible to the Conservative Party and his shadow cabinet colleagues. It is my responsibility to protect our party, and faced with that information, I took the only decision that any responsible leader could,

because the British public are tired of political psychodrama. So am I. They saw too much of it in the last government. They're seeing too much of it in this government. I will not repeat those mistakes. When I was elected leader, I committed to doing politics differently. Disloyalty and dishonesty undermine trust in politics. They're also disrespectful to our party members, our councillors, MPs and most of all, voters.

You all deserve better. Conservatives suffered a heavy defeat in 2024. That was painful, but we are rebuilding, with strong principles, clear plans, and with a serious team united around a shared purpose. When individuals choose to walk away from that effort for personal ambition, it tells you nothing about the Conservative Party and everything you need to know about them.

There will be more to say, And I know a lot of commentary about this decision. But I want you all to be in no doubt. It's a time of global uncertainty. I am focused on holding the government to account, ensuring they are acting in the national interest, and that conservatives deliver a proper plan for a stronger economy, stronger borders, and a stronger Britain.

To be honest, I actually preferred Katie Hopkins translation. Because Britain, where Robert Jenrick is out at, the Conservative Party because he was planning to defect to another party, whoever he was planning to defect to has leaked that information. Kemmy Badeknot's got a hold of it and she's sick of it all so she's fired his ass. In a statement, Kemmy says, I'm so sick of all this shit. Why is politics so full of utter wankers? And Katie's right. The wanker class loved this, but none of it is about what is really required to save the disunited kingdom. How can we trust a word they say? when Generic actually appeared here on outspoken

and suggested his number one goal was retiring Farage from British politics. But we have first passed the post. So what if the British public voted Reform UK the biggest party but required a Conservative coalition deal to govern? Would you consider that? And would you serve in a cabinet with Nigel Farage's Prime Minister, for example? No.

I want to, with all due respect, retire Nigel Farage, get back those voters we've lost, get back the Conservative Party into power. That's what we need as a country. I don't think Nigel is the bloke that you want to have running your kids' schools or running your local hospital. Or as the public finances continue to collapse under Rachel Reeves, trust your savings, your pension, his small business to. I have some time for Nigel. He and I agree on many issues, but I don't think he's a serious politician. I don't think he's got the answers to the problems that our country's facing. And then just months ago, as reforms then chairmen's ear use of ludicrously suggested Jenric should be jailed.

Farage posted on X, Jenric is a fraud. I've always thought so. This quote proves it. He even made this slick video. You might have seen pictures of Robert Jenrick turning up outside the Bell Hotel, the migrant hotel, in Epping in Essex. And what he's saying is, I'm on your side. I'm with you the people. What's going on is a disgrace. Well, when he was immigration minister, just a couple of years back, it was very, very different. Here he is boasting that he's going to open more migrant hotels than all the ministers that went before him.

We have procured more hotels very rapidly and more are coming on board literally every. every day. More hotels have been coming online almost every month throughout the whole of this year. So Suella Braberman and her predecessor, Priti Patel, were procuring more hotels. What I have done in my short tenure is ramp that up and procure even more. Yes, that was Robert Generic. And under him, as immigration minister, we got up to 56,000 people who'd crossed a channel by a boat living in hotels. He put more people in hotels than even this Labour government. And here we are three years later and he turns up and says, I'm on your side. My advice to you would be to say this man is a fraud. This man is not to be trusted and certainly

his party aren't either. Mark my words, Zia Yusuf and Richard Tice, are today furious about Gen Ricks' arrival. But again, not for political or policy reasons, but because of personal ambition. Both want the Shadow Chancellor gig, which Generic also covets. Now, in the past few moments, Generic has said no job, has been guaranteed. He hasn't come to the party, I guess because he was bounced in by Badenok, with a promise that he will become their Shadow Chancellor. Yusuf posted on X today hilarious.

chemi begins the brutal purge of those most likely to challenge her and may post the electoral wipeout. James Cleverley, keep your phone on last days of Rome. Remember, it's all a game of power to these people. And the MSM are in on it with them. The detail behind this sacking is she says there was a secret plot, and that's why Robert Generic has been sad. They love a secret plot in Westminster, don't they?

Well, she's made the allegation. I know, and she's flapped and she's panicked, And she clearly thought at 4.30 this afternoon, Robert Jenrick was going to join report to UK. Is there a plot? Mr. Fudge. He was not going to join. There was no plot for him to join at 4.30 this afternoon. There's no plot. So do you know what? I'll give him a ring this afternoon. I'll give him the ring this afternoon. He said he ran for leadership.

I might even buy him a pint. You never know. He was in the shadow cabinet. He was a big sign in for you. I mean, he was part of that Tory failure. But the one. The one big tick against his name is that he did resign as immigration minister because of the failures of the government. So that would be a big tick in his direction. I will speak to him this afternoon and see what he wants to do. Now, I've been doing my own reporting on this story. Genric, I know for a fact, had been unhappy for six months.

Badernock, in his view, had been purposely pushing him down the Tory pecking order. He was furious with the speaking slot. He was offered at the Conservative Party. conference, for example, he was left off, a lot of glossy brochures. He feared that without a quick leadership change, the Tory party would die. And I think he knew. My understanding is that he knew that saving them was almost impossible, even if he had become leader. Now, why it took so long for him in Reform UK to come together is because he actually didn't know whether the party would accept him, given the previous public feuds. But in recent weeks, well, it was in September

initially, I'm told that Generic actually approached Baraj. And Badenock, at that time, was cementing her leadership, so things quickly changed. Now, on the real right today, the real right, you know what I mean by that, right, there is disappointment that the generic decision will actually boost reform rather than a real country-saving force like Restore Britain or Advance UK. World by Wolf argued if Robert Jennerant wants to truly make an impact, he should not join reform, he should team up with Rupert Lowe and form a new party bringing a couple of dozen Tory backbenchers with him. This is a chance we will not get again in a hurry, seize the moment.

Ex-reform star Howard Cox, who defected to be in Habib's advance UK, wrote, The re-tory party is being built fast right before our eyes. The pact is coming and loyal members in each party will be sacrificed as in 2019 for power at the expense of voters' interests. Dishonesty and career politicians rule our lives again. And UKIP supporter Chris Davies of True Conservative media posted, Robert Jenrick has been caught with his political trousers down. If he joins Reform UK now, which is obviously done, he is doubly damaged goods.

Useless in government, he has attempted a damning conversion to conservatism. he has zero integrity and is not to be trusted. So obviously, Farage will welcome him with open arms. What's interesting is the Tory wets are equally unhappy. But they are branding generic, a political galenian. Watch. She shot his fox on the other hand. It's an unfortunate situation from her point of view from the start.

She's quite right when she said she had no choice. She certainly had no choice. You were asking earlier, is this strength or weakness? It's neither. It's inevitableity. He has a mixed reputation, to put it kindly, amongst his colleagues on the conservative bench. He's known to be furiously, frantically ambitious. Were you to remove ambition from the core of Robert Jenrick, he would collapse like a bone-loaf.

chicken and he's been all over the ideological spectrum, always pursuing power. He'll definitely be an asset to reform, but they are beginning to look like quite a rag bag. Interestingly, a new megapole launched by Outspoken today shows that you are actually backing Badenock's decision so far. Look at this. Should Kemmy Badenock have sacked Robert Jenrick over Reform UK defection? talks 60% saying yes, 40% saying no. And I mean, you could argue that this is actually disastrous timing for reform, which is still reeling from the backlash over the defection of Muslim Tory tax scandal vaccine pusher, Nadim Sahawi.

Reform and Nigel Farage have accepted the oiled egg, Nadim Sahawi, into the Reform party. I hold him personally responsible for people losing their jobs, their marriages and their lives. He forced the state injectable into children and into NHS workers. I have seen my dogs take more trustworthy shits than that man. I hope, Nigel, that you take that turd and you flush him faster than a log on a log flu. That's... And the thing is, you also have to remember that the mainstream media, even though they're playing this game today, fundamentally still want to paint Reform UK as racist and far right. And it actually all kicked off. I mean, this will be overshadowed by what's happened with Genrick, but I still want to show you because it all kicked off

between one of the ITV news left-wing propagandists and the new reformed Scottish leader over-spurious claims of racism after today's press conference. This is extraordinary footage. Watch. Do you think that Anasawa prioritises the Pakistani community? I've got no idea about that. I have no personal view on that. All I'm saying is that I'm reflecting back that in our communities we have lost cohesion in our communities. I mean, to fix that.

I'm sorry, you're saying you have no idea. Many politicians have felt strongly about this to come out and say that was a dog whistle. That shouldn't have been said. On the spot right now, I'm asking, is that something that you would say? Would you mind just moving on from that? I think he's answered this. No, I will ask the questions that I would like to ask. so it's an important question.

I'm asking, this was a really important part of the last time that reformed. This was a really important part. I've asked you whether you disavow it. I'm asking you nice. I'm sorry, please, you don't have to handle me. This is a question. Are you going to repeat that message in your campaign? There's many issues in the election.

I want to cover all of them. You're only talking about one. I'm just that you've not answered that question. Carl, Benjohn by news, please. Can you be doing that? Carl Benjamin of Lotus Eaters. joins me now. Carl, so great to have you on us. Spoken for the first time.

Big day of breaking news. What's your reaction? Who does this actually benefit and who is dead as a result? The Tories are reform? Wow, what a day for us to be talking. Because, I mean, right up until the point where I had to come onto the show, Gemrick was still talking in the press conference, so I was there desperately trying to catch up

with what was actually happening. So I really appreciated your digest, because there were a bunch of things in there that I'd frankly not have time to look at. It's been wild, actually. And I think that generally the Patriots of Britain can actually look at this with a great deal of heart, right? Because the Conservative Party has been the primary obstacle to a form of patriotic politics in this country for a very long time. And Nigel Farage is clearly just reassembling the Conservative Party in a new guise. It's the oldest, the most long-lived party for a reason. And this seems to be it morphing into a new mould.

But on the plus side, it's hard to believe that Jemric is going to be a comfortable fit for Nigel Farage. Because you'll notice that Jemricks' rhetoric is worryingly close to Rupert Lowe's rhetoric, which is rather nativist. And Nigel Farage has always had a bit of a, is that always had of a bit of a funny relationship with nativism. He wears the costume, but doesn't like the content. And whenever he's pressed on these things, he gets very nervous and he backs away very, very quickly, which is why I think he's only on about 26, 28% in the polls at the moment, on average, rather than being around 40%. I think the lack of strong line on this is what is actually holding Fras back. As well as

him being far more to the right than Nigel, and he has been far to the right. And he has been far to right of Nigel for a long time now. GEMRIC is, as you pointed out, in your digest, highly ambitious. And if Rupert Lowe just contradicting Nigel Farage in public was enough to make Nigel scurry to the media and say, Rupert Lowe is trying to conduct a coup in reform, well, it's hard to believe that Jemrick is long for a close relationship with them. So actually, I am feeling pretty good about all of this, to be honest, because I, I mean, the worst thing that can happen is that nothing changes, right?

Because at the moment, we're on the slow road to damnation. And so any change is good change. And watching everyone essentially up in the air, who knows where things can land, the potential is there for something interesting to happen. And the potential is there for the public to realize, well, actually, are these guys really the people who are going to save us? And obviously the answer is probably no. Well, indeed.

And I think you're so right. We're now going to see the real Robert Jenner, aren't we? Because we've never really known. I mean, I've been a huge fan. I think he's been a big part of shifting the Overton window. But you look back to the early part of his career, and he was a fully paid up David Cameron Stoge. So now we're going to see the real Robert General.

Is he going to push Reform UK to the right? That is what I want to see, because it's about the issues, right? It's not about the personalities. I have a fear, Carl, that actually what's going to happen is that now that he's in Reform UK, he's going to follow the party line because he has seen what happened to Rupert Lowe. That's my sense, but I don't know. Well, I mean, he's seen what happened to himself in the Conservative Party for not following the party line. Robert Jemrick was essentially the kind of de facto social media leader of the Conservatives,

and the Conservative right definitely viewed him as the kind of heir apparent to the party. because it's evident that Kemmy Vagnol just doesn't have the required charisma or talent to bring the Conservative Party back from the decline that they're suffering. And someone like Jemrick might have been able to do it. He is prepared to speak in quite rich and deep tones about the way he feels about the country. He sounds very Burkean in the way that he talks about the nation and the continuation of the nation. And in fact, he said it in his announcement speech. You know, we inherited a great country and we're at risk of losing it, which is correct.

But it's also, I mean, that puts him far to the right of basically any British politician other than Rupert Lowe at this point. So maybe, I mean, it's hard to believe he won't drive reform to the right. That, I think, puts him in danger. This is one of those things where in six months' time, we could see Najafras kick him out for saying something that's just true. and in favor of the native people of the country. And who knows what kind of personality conflicts he's going to find with Richard Tyson, Zia Yusuf, who are both strong-willed and ambitious people of their own. And suddenly, I'm not going to say he's a superstar, but he is a notable social media presence, a national politician.

Suddenly he is parachuted into the party. There's a huge amount of media attention at the moment. Genrick will doubtless continue campaigning on social media effectively, like he has done, and he will probably make people feel like he's putting them in the shade. And so who knows where things go from there? Well, Carl, it's really interesting you mention Rupert Lowe, because I want to show you something which I think is a bombshell. It will not be reported by the mainstream media.

But there is a brand new poll from Find Out now. And this is completely new, by the way. They interviewed a large sample today. So this is a brand new poll. In a general election, if there was a party led by Rupert Lowe, how would you vote in that election? So you'll see Reform UK at 26%, the Greens at 18, Conservatives at 15, Labor at 14, Liberal Democrats at 10. But at 9% of the vote nationally, a party led. led by Rupert Lowe. Now, that is astonishing and extraordinary, given there is no party led by Rupert Lowe at this stage. There is maybe an intention to get there, I think almost definitely an intention to get there. But this shows you, I think, that reform can be challenged

to the right, because what they want, Carl, is this idea of inevitability. You know, oh, you're stupid to want something more pure. You're stupid to want something more traditionally conservative because it's just never going to happen. David Bull this week was saying Rupert Lowe's great, but he's never going to get the money to do something. This poll, I think, shows that a party led by Rupert Lowe

would have a shot because that, look, you can pull it apart for a whole load of reasons, okay, Rupert Lowe was mentioned in the question. Like, I get all of that, but it's still something quite significant in my view. It's not the only time this

has happened either. A few months ago, it's not. It's not. There was another poll where he was at 10%. And if I remember the end of last year, there was a poll in the red wall of who is your favorite party leader or something along those lines. And Rupert Lowe had just organically polled at 6% there. So the fact that he is polling shows that there is clearly something to him and the movement that he is leading.

And so, yeah, I mean, Nigel Farage brought reform to the position that they're in in four years. Well, we're still three years out from an election. We've still got lots of time. It still looks like there's everything to play for, in my opinion. Very much. It really is. Now, Carl, it's all been kicking off at this press conference between Camilla Tom and who is a GBM news presenter and a Daily Telegraph columnist who actually wrote an article

about the future of Robert Generic and Generic himself at this Reform UK press conference. We're obviously watching this together for the first time, but I'm told that things got pretty spicy. Shall we take a look at this? Reform will deliver the real change we need. Nigel knows. Reform knows. The extraordinary challenges that Britain faces require a comprehensive plan to turn our country around.

That'll be a major priority for this year. As Nigel has said, we will set out to build and recruit. the team needed to execute that plan. Yes. A few people will come from parties who have realized that those parties have lost their way,

who unquestionably back the real change the reform will bring. Sorry, that is not the right clip. I'm just going to get it lined up. But Carl, what did you make of generic speech? Well, honestly, generic speech was pretty good. And again, quite a right-wing speech. generally is quite smart in the way that he presents what he's saying

in that he doesn't overtly use hardline language but when you actually examine just philosophically the concepts he's using you realize that he is foundationally placing himself within the nativist frame and ensuring that actually he is speaking to the British right wing which I mean is almost everyone in the country who cares about the country and wants it to do well but you can see that he's made himself unpopular in sort of Westminster bubble politics. He's been, apparently he's been critiqued heavily from within the Conservative Party.

If you just bring up the grooming gangs, for example, which should have been a really easy issue for the Conservatives to win on, and yet for some reason they're not quite as weak as the Labour Party, but almost so. You know what I mean? Totally, totally. We do have that clash now between Jenric and Camilla Tomine. let's take a look. Can you just clear up, Mr. Jenrick, the timeline on your defection? Because I wrote a column about this on Friday, and there was an exchange of messages with, let's call it sources close to you, insisting that you are never, ever going to defect. It's no surprise that if you phone me, I don't have to tell you everything you want for your column, Camille.

But when, well, no, I'd already written the column at that point, but I just wanted clarity like Chris Mason at the BBC and all the other journalists here. that when you said you were never, ever going to defect last Friday, that you were in fact lying, and therefore the accusation that you're untrustworthy may be true. That's my question. Camilla, Camilla. I'm very sorry to disabuse you since I thought you were very experienced journalists, but politicians don't have to reply to all the text messages

that they get sent by journalists. And I wasn't going to give you the exclusive news of my decision, Camilla. But if you're asking me the question about honesty, nobody in the Conservative Party was more honest about the failures of the last Conservative government than me. What is the most honest thing to do, Camilla, to stay in a party knowing that its principal policy in Rwanda was a failure or to resign from its cabinet?

What is the most honest thing to do for myself and the country but to say this party is going nowhere? And if you really want to turn it around, ensure that the country is fixed, then you have to rally behind Nigel and reform. That is what I've done. What do you make of that, Carl? I mean, it would be more impactful if he wasn't a part of the government that caused what is called the Boris wave, and if he hadn't snuck in tens of thousands of Afghan migrants into the country under the cover of night,

putting a legal barrier in place to prevent widespread reporting of it. but in his defense he has in the past couple of years been campaigning hard to the right so maybe he's had a damascene conversion and realized the damage that he's done but I've yet to see any kind of me a culprit on his part I've yet to see him actually say

oh no I did this he exports it to the oh it's the conservative party that's done this like well you were in the government Nadine Zahari were in the government Nadine Doris was in the government wasn't Lee Anderson in Sunnack's cabinet as well he was.

So it's certainly in a leadership role, deputy chairman, I think. So it's just, yeah, that's right. He was deputy chairman. So it's just one of these very strange things that the worst government we have ever had is reconstituting itself, hiding behind Nigel's skirts. I don't, I mean, I don't really want those people. You know, I'm probably going to have to vote for reform like everyone else, assuming that nothing interesting or better comes along.

but I don't really want to and I'm getting kind of annoyed that we may end up getting the Farage wave after they win. I want guarantees that the millions of people who are allowed to come here against our will just handed out visas like confetti

will have those visas taken off them and just be instructed to go home. That's what I'm looking for in a party. And I just don't think I'm going to get that with them. The thing is there are so many issues at the moment with Reform UK. And I think there's enough time before the next election to call them out.

And interestingly, I was accused by Leila Cunningham the Muslim Merrill candidate for Reform UK, the woman with the secret Islamic tattoo of the crescent moon, who claims that she's never heard of the concept of Tikir. I was accused of being far right

for simply saying that, look, I would not vote for a Muslim candidate to replace Sadiq Khan. Like, an Islamist mayor has destroyed our capital city. Why on earth would I trust another believer in Islam to fix the issues? And I think it was a really telling moment because she had accused Khan at this press conference, just hours before she accused me of being far right of exactly the same. Watch this. Khan never accepts responsibility.

No, he attacks anyone who says London's dangerous. He calls them far rights, racist. He ludicrously says that criticism of his record is because he's Muslim and we are all Islamophobic. Frankly, it's an insult to victims and to Londoners. Dan Witten has suggested that you're somehow some sort of possibly, quote, possibly an Islamist and reform of Capitulated. Capitulated. That's the word.

What's your response to that? Number one, they're not the right. They're the far right. And I don't even think that they're far right. They're just, you know, the thing is, I don't see myself. Well, guess what, Carl Benjamin? Douglas Murray.

Douglas Murray has weighed in on this in the spectator. And sure, because it's Douglas Murray, posh guy, I mean, very good guy, I think, you know, but with the clipped tongue and he's certainly not quite as, shall we say, out, spoken as me, but has pretty much made the same point in a new column for the spectator today. And I'm going to be fascinated to see if they come down on him in the same way. But I just want to share it with you, or at least share the significant part. It's headlined Reform's real race problem.

And he writes, perhaps it is inevitable that if Reform fielded a ruddy-faced white man as their candidate for mayor of our wonderfully diverse capital, then it would be. just be too easy to dismiss him. It does make a certain aha type of logic to think, you have a Muslim man, we will raise you a Muslim woman. Let's see how you get around that one lefties. Except that as mentioned above the left can get around, anything they want to. And meanwhile, another problem starts to come along. It might be said to have been exacerbated this week by the defection of Nadim Sahawi to reform. Sahawi is not a stranger to political incontinency, but I wonder what the average reform volunteer who is going to be knocking on doors for the next few years,

we'll think about all of this. After all, if it is true that you need a Muslim candidate to counter a Muslim candidate, does this mean that for the foreseeable future it will be impossible for the political right to put up white male heterosexual candidates? The majority of people in Britain are still white and half of the population is still nominally male when it comes to the proportion of heterosexuals, it is increasingly hard to tell. But on balance, they still seem to dominate. Around the edges of reform, and among some would-be members and voters, this is all becoming understandably vexing. The unwise will decide to dismiss their concerns. But you can't dismiss them forever. Or perhaps you can. Perhaps Britain in the 21st century

is simply going to be a place where race and identity dominions. everything. So Carl, when you look at that, I would say Douglas Murray, sure, he's doing it in his way. He's an intellectual. He's very careful. He knows where the line is. But I'd say he's pretty much backing my position on this and saying, Reform UK don't just dismiss your supporters who do not want to vote for a Muslim woman. It definitely, you can read between the lines and definitely see that. And when you put it in the context of Douglas Murray's other critiques of Islam and the Muslim community, it's hard not to read that through it. There have been many criticisms of Douglas Murray from the left, which go along the lines of, well, you're just Tommy

Robinson with the plummy accent. And I think that Douglas should really take that as a compliment, because I think that's a very lovely description of it, actually. But he does get away with a lot more, doesn't he? I mean, it does sort of show the classism in our country. It does, but rather than raging against the machine, I think the best thing to do is understand the game that you're playing, right? Oh yeah, and I love this column. I love this column. Yes. I think, I think, though, he's hit on the point there that is, unfortunately, it does seem that identity is going to be a core issue of British politics going forwards because of the diversification of the country. and the way in which identity was handled during the years of diversification. In a normal, I mean, in a different country, in a different era, it would be understood that actually the dominant ethnic group of the country have some kind of special claim to that country that other people actually don't have.

And therefore, you will be expected as a newcomer to follow the rules and norms of the people whose country. that it is and you were expected to fit in with them. Well, multiculturalism is a doctrine against that assumption that says, no, everyone actually can set up their own little enclaves and colonies in the country and have the boundaries policed by the state, as in you're not allowed to critique that culture, that community, that race, that religion, whatever you want to call it. They are not allowed, well, I mean, for the white British, anyone's allowed to critique us where we've got no protections.

Fair game. each of the, yeah, we're fair game. We're absolutely, we're easy meat, maybe. But for every other community, they've got state protections from one another and from the majority population. And so this has meant that it is, honestly, I think, inevitable that the white British population, and when I say that, mostly the English population, because we're the ones most affected by this, are gaining something of a class consciousness ourselves in relation to what has happened. here. And I would actually be that, I would be surprised if actually it is only a Muslim who could

be Siddi Khan. Because actually, if you look at London's demographics, it's only somewhere, in 2021 census, it was about 15% Muslim. It's probably more than that now. I mean, maybe it's 20, maybe it's 25 at the very most. But that's still not an overwhelming majority. It's a, it's a strong demographic. But it's not the overwhelming majority. And I don't, think those people are necessarily hardcore Islamist. I mean, you will see that there are some who are, obviously.

Well, yeah, but I still doubt, Carl. I honestly still doubt that many Muslim men would vote for a Muslim female candidate. So I think Reform UK in this decision is also completely misunderstood. I'm glad you brought that up, right?

Because I think that what is happening here is a misunderstanding of what that community actually is like. And if you spend any amount of time talking to them. So I travel to London very often for my crimes of being a broadcaster. So I have to go down there regularly to be interviewed and so I get taxes around all the time. And very often it's a chap with the name like Abdul or something like this, right? And so I talk to the tax drive, so I want to know their opinions. And a lot of them like Donald Trump. A lot of them like Donald Trump. In fact, I mean,

they don't know who I am. And a lot of the time they'll just spontaneously because it's been on the radio or something. So, you know, I like Donald Trump. He's doing the best he can for his people. And you realize, actually, they've got a different view of what propriety is. They actually quite like masculine politicians who are prepared to come out and hold the line, regardless of the kind of critiques they're getting from, you know, any lefties or whoever, and say, no, this is what I'm doing because I think this is in the best interest of where I am, my people, the country I live in, the city I am running for, whatever it is. And actually, I, I see. suspect that actually someone who was a straight white man might even be able to win over a large

percentage of that community, let alone other communities, if they took quite a brash and hard stance on these things, and just said, no, this is terrible, this will fix it, I'm going to do it, and I'm not taking any criticism on that, vote for me. I think that's more appealing to a lot of Londoners than the common consensus will admit. 100%. 100%. And this is the problem, when you just give in to what you assume is the easy DEI answer. Very often you actually don't get the results that you expect anyway. But I do think there are lots of questions over this woman, Layla Cunningham. I mean, what's your view? I mean, is it suspicious that she has this tattoo that she's kept covered up? Is it suspicious that she claims she's never heard about the term

to Kea. I mean, for me, at the very least, I just feel like she should be questioned on those issues, but she never has. This is the problem. She's only ever once, because I've really looked into this car, being asked in detail about her faith, where she did confirm that she was a practising Muslim, but that's all we know. So I don't know much about her, but from the interviews and public appearances I've seen her make, she sounds like a London socialite to me. And for a lot of, I mean, honestly, she sounds like a very good model of an integration success story, actually,

because I saw in an interview where she said, no, I just consider myself British. I say, okay, well, fair enough, you know. I bet that when she goes to parties, she drinks wine, and I bet sometimes she does it on a Friday evening when she should be at the mosque, right? I get the feeling she doesn't know what Tikir is, not because she's hiding it from people,

but because I don't think she's quite that good a Muslim. I think that real practicing Muslims, who are very serious about the faith, tend to not present in the way that she presents. So I personally don't read her as being a Muslim. I think for a lot of people in her position, the term Muslim, you know, in the same way that I celebrate Christmas, even though I personally not a Christian, I'm cursed as an atheist for my sins,

but I celebrate Christmas. I go to church occasionally, you know, with my wife and kids. But I'm not necessarily a practicing Christian, so I could easily say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian, because on Christmas Eve I'll go to the church for my kids. I think for her it's part of signifying membership of a community rather than a true belief in a doctrine. Does that make sense? It does. It absolutely does.

But I don't trust it, is my point. Do you see what I mean? I want to know, I need to know, I believe that there are questions that need to be asked of Zia Yusuf as well. Huge debate on the right of British politics. You certainly won't hear it discussed on Gb News or talk TV, but absolutely out there in the real world, people are asking, should the English run England? What is this ethno-nationalism versus civic nationalism debate about? Do you really have to choose a side? And increasingly, we are moving towards more radical solutions, which isn't a surprise, given we have been lied to for so long by our leaders. Now, this debate, I think, was summed up in the clash between Andrew Gold and Steve Laws. And Steve Laws and people who watch Outspoken regularly know that I do not sign up to

his policy prescription, actually. But he was totally owned, sorry, he totally owned Andrew Gold in their clash. And so Carl Benjamin, our guest today of Lotus Eaters, has now been brought on to Andrew Gold's show as sort of an opportunity to provide rehabilitation to the host of the Heretics podcast. I don't think it worked, but I'm going to show you and we'll analyze as we go.

Elon Musk has actually now even weighed into this debate. But just to set it up, here is I think the moment where Andrew Gold looked horrendous because he basically just shrugged off the idea that white people, the English, are actually going to become extinct. Watch this.

but that what you've just presented there would not reverse the demographic decline would still become a minority in our homeland at some point unfortunately white people and I count myself among them

will become a minority and will probably go extinct we are a worldwide minority already which is why I take the radical stance that the English have the right to exist we have the right to our own homeland that everyone agrees on that right that's the basis line

I think so I think that's the base like It depends what you mean by English. That's the issue. We already disagree on the meaning of English. So there's that. Okay, but ultimately, with the direction that the country's going, the future of our people is at stake, the most radical stance that we have to take to fix this is okay with me.

I don't care what we have to do. I don't care who gets caught in the crossfires. I don't care how much damage gets done along the way as long as the future of my people is secured. That's my line. And Andrew Gold's line was very odd. And he knows that people were like, what the hell are you on? And then he went on GB News and I think made things so much worse by deciding to deploy this woke right line, which to me makes absolutely no sense and is offensive.

Again, that backfired. So he got Carl on to actually. actually have a conversation about this, Carl laid out his vision. Watch. At what point do the English get to exercise their rights to the country and say, we've had enough, right, at what point? Now, I think that about the sort of 65%, 75%, but Mark is a pretty reasonable place for us to say, look, we've been pretty tolerant up until this point, but the situation is just getting worse, right? No one's listening to the fact that actually we're not happy with the way our country's going,

and there's no moral obligation for us to cede our country to foreign peoples. No one's got a right to this country. Everyone who comes here, comes here as a guest at our pleasure, because they have their own country that we don't have a right to either. And so now it is completely reasonable for the English people collectively to say, we're not happy with this and we'd like it to stop. What are some of the biggest issues? They're things I think that I talk about as well,

but that the English ethnos is not happy with right now. Well, there's loads of things. I mean, where do you begin? Now, Elon Musk saw that clip and posted very reasonable position. And I watched the entire episode and was really stunned that Andrew still just doesn't get it. And obviously, I'll talk to Carl about what he was thinking, But there was an exchange where he couldn't just say that England should be run by the English. It was astonishing, watch.

And I probably did come out with some things such as, there's no English ethnicity. You know, it's a defensiveness. Maybe I was a bit woke in that moment. You know, we all have it in us. And I think it's hard to react and to have a constructive conversation with these people when they're just going, deported. You're out. You know, which is, I'm cancelled from the left. It's the same thing.

I say a thing, they misconstrued it, they think I want genocide for the whites. And that was taken from a clip I had said. Well, I mean, you could clear this now. Would it be better if England was governed by English people or non-English people? English people or non-English people? Ancestually English, you say, ethnically.

How far back does that have to go? One generation. Your mum's English. Your dad's English. What if your mum's English and your dad's Irish? Well, I'm not a pure English. like Steve. That's, but that is why it's hard.

Yeah. As it's hard for Jews. But it's not that hard, belonging to an English community, having English ancestry. Wow. That is a bit hard. Why?

Because you just delay the problem another generation. But, how much English ancestry? It doesn't matter how much. If you're part of the English community and you have English ancestry, there doesn't matter what percentage of it.

Carl, I found it. an astonishing watch actually because I was like and I'm sure you like Andrew God you've been on a show a lot putting it out there I'm not a big fan for a whole load of reasons but I was like how are you making it any better I found it bizarre it was almost like you were trying to give him quite an easy opportunity to say yep of course it would be better if England was run by the English and he simply could not say it what so first things first I wasn't going on there to rehabilitate Andrew or do damage control.

If you watch it, you'll notice that actually I'm kind of doing damage control for Steve because the fundamentals of Steve's position, Steve's position are correct, right? England is the collective patrimony of the English people. We are the people with the primary moral claim to this country. And anyone else, like I said in the clip that Elon Musk had retweeted, anyone who's not English who comes and lives here, does so as a guest of the English people. And that's understood, I mean, like the, there are currently hundreds of thousands of Brits in Spain who are guests of the Spanish. And one of the common lefty things is say, well, are you suggesting the Spanish could kick them out?

Yeah, yeah, it's your country. If you want to kick them out. Yeah. And by the way, none of those people are saying that those Brits abroad, those expats should go and join the Spanish parliament or run the country. No, exactly. And if the Spanish said, yeah, we're only going to allow Spanish-born people to actually run as politicians, that would make perfect sense. Why would you want foreigners ruling over you?

Even if there were foreigners that I sympathize and empathize with because they're from my particular group. Well, you know, okay, I totally understand that you would like your country rule by you. And why wouldn't anyone else want the same for every other country? And so Andrew is putting a bit of bind there because it is true that there will be exceptions to the rule and there can be good exceptions to the rule.

I mean, David Stark always uses the example of Benjamin Disraeli, right? He's a Jewish man, so not English, but one of the most effective one-nation Tory politicians in all of history, right? Excellent politician. There will be exceptions to rules, but the general rule should be Britain should be governed by British people. Because at the moment, I don't know whether you've noticed that in Tower Hamlets in the Aspire Party, you have elected councillors in this country running for the progressive open borders Aspire Party, who are at the same time running for the Bangladeshi National Party back in their homeland. It is mad, and it also reveals everything that you need to know.

Oh, yes, when it comes to their own country, you can see where the moral attachment lies. Is it to Britain? They know they want open borders and progressivism and liberalism. No, when it comes to Bangladesh, we want reactionary, hardcore Bangladesh for the Bangladeshis. And I think that's a position that actually it's acceptable to have for the native people of a country. yes, the country is for us. And if we're going to be generous and share it with others, then great. You know, I'm not nearly as hardline as Steve Laws, you know, his position.

But Steve Laws' position, I think, is in some way slightly performative, right? It's to make a point and to get the conversation started. And I think that's actually a useful tactic. Well, yeah, because he's even said that. I mean, he's even said that. He wants to make it easier for a Rupert low politically to say, actually, we need mass deportations. need to at least consider some form of remigration. And for example, if you look at the Restore Britain Mass Deportation document written by Harrison Pitt, the suggestion was,

let's start offering to pay some of these people to go back to at least make it an acceptable discussion. But I also want to ask you, Carl, about the whole Steve Laws versus Tommy Robinson debate, which is going on. And of course, you know, you have hosted Tommy on Lottese. have a watch of this. There's no concerns for the white child who's being abused or racially abused. They don't know how to deal with it. They have to shut their mouths for the sake of diversity. Yeah, they get rid of the kid.

Yeah. If there's a school, they'll get rid of the kid who's being bullied rather than the bullies because they don't know how to deal with it because the bullies are, where are a minority, but now a majority. Well, and they admit that they're all culpable for all of the horrors that have been visited on the British people. And Tommy really, his crime is being correct. about all of this and presenting it too.

I think it was in Luton, wasn't? He saw it happening in Luton in Luton. Yes. Yeah. One of his cousins. Very early on, early 2000s, yeah. But that is not the Steve Laws view. He has gone hard against Tommy Robinson.

Now, I even described him as a grifter really attacked his links to Israel. And Tommy is now firing back at Steve. Watch this. Because every Iranian I've ever met in Britain, is decent. Have you ever heard of problems from the Iranian community in the UK? Ever? Me neither. Never ever. I've got a lot more interesting and beneficial things during my time than sit down with Seven Stone Steve Laws who is not going to do anything or implement anything and doesn't really have a following.

He has an internet following of ethno nationalists around the world who basically just hate everyone that's not white. That's what I see, yeah? So that's how I see Steve Laws as irrelevant in I see. I see all these people here. Good people you can meet. See that little kid there? Is that little child? Steve Lords would deport that little child. Oh yeah, I'm not saying whether I agree with Steve Laws or not. So I don't want to give him the steam of my piss. That's it.

Thank you so much for your time, Tommy. Nice to meet you. So, Carl, as someone who has been pretty supportive of Tommy Robinson in the past, and obviously you've been a speaker at his Unite the Kingdom rallies, what do you make of this new split on the right? The new split is more conceptual than actual, I think. Both Tommy and Steve are pushing in the same direction. I think the point I drove home on the Andrew Gold podcast was that actually every nation has the right to demographic security in its own country.

And I use the example of Israel in which it's codified that Israel is a Jewish state in their constitution, which Andrew conceded. And this is something I support. I think that we ought to have demographic security. And at the moment, the percentage of England that is English is rapidly diminishing. And this is actually not good. If we want England to be an English nation and to have the political traditions that we actually think of, I mean, when we say British values, we mean English values in a lot of ways. And if you want those to be upheld, you are going to be looking to the majority population of England,

being by far the biggest nation of the British Isles to actually uphold that. And if that erodes, if we become a majority-minority country, well, people in other countries definitionally can't start with British values, and I don't know whether anyone's noticed, but many of the minority communities aren't exactly accepting our values either. So this is a thing that is, even on this sort of the civic nationalist level, this is conceptually a very big problem even for them. But I think that the civic nationalist, ethno-nationalist thing is a bit of a misnomer.

Because, for example, ethnos is the Greek word for nation, and nation is a Latin word for ethnos. They both mean the same thing, right? So the nation is the people that are connected to one another through hereditary heredity, history, and location. So they live together, and they form a, a network of relations where you in in local communities there's men and women who form families and these families form communities and these communities in the burkean sort of concentric circles

form the nation itself and so we're talking about the people in particular and the the steve law's position is very concerned about the people in particular well i think the tommy robinson position is also concerned with the people in particular but he's not as heartline on how the solution should come about. So you'll notice that Tommy in that clip said, I've never met an Iranian who was a problem, right? And that's true. I've never met an Iranian who's a problem either. I've also never met an Iranian who wants the English to become a minority in England. And so what Tommy is talking about is the relation on the community level rather than on the sort of conceptual level, whereas Steve Laws lives quite often in the conceptual level. Notice he'll use categories. He'll say white, black, or

English or foreign or whatever. And what categories do is they group together things that might otherwise not be related. Whereas when you're talking about the actual nation itself, you are talking about something that exists and the connections between it. So it's a lot lower to the ground. And I think the problem is that Steve and Tommy basically talk past each other most of the time and aren't really addressing each other at the same level. And so they come away hating each other. because from Steve's position, Tommy is a traitor and he would be happily, he would happily flood Britain with as many foreigners as the Labour Party would want to put in. And on Steve's level, on Tommy's perspective, Steve would be cruel to people that he knows, that themselves are not necessarily going to cause the end of the English as a people. So you can see why they come away from each other, seething and loathing one another.

but actually there's not such a great distance between their positions and Steve I'm sure would concede yeah okay I'm not going to get a hundred percent white Britain right um so really the question is well what what what are we actually asking for in reality and I personally think to to to feel demographically secure in your country to have just over 90 percent 90 percent of the country being the native people is a very reasonable ask and people might say well hang on a second that sounds a bit high no that was the percentage of the country when Tony Blair came to power. It was 90% English England. So, no, it's a very reasonable thing for us to ask to return to that position. And that means that those people who are in our communities, as in who have actually moved to the country, married an English woman or an English man, had children and integrated into the communities, as in living in the community, those people will be able to stay. But there are all sorts of multicultural communities that are segregated off from one another with the state boundaries that I mentioned earlier that really shouldn't be here. We shouldn't be setting up the Bangladeshi community,

the Indian community, and I'm not saying that's individual people, but it's the community itself. Why should there be a separate foreign community on our soil? It takes on the aspect of a colony and actually you wouldn't permit it in your country, so we shouldn't be permitting it in ours. And I think that actually on that point, I think both Tommy and Steve would agree. So like I said, I don't think there's that much difference. I think the issue is communication. Well, it has all kicked off at GV News. It has all kicked off at GV News on screen, but trust me, behind the scenes, things are even more tense.

Now, Tom Howard, that pasty little Westminster Swamp Establishment Creson, has long infuriated his co-presenters, especially the women who find him a patronizing little shit, to be totally honest, who is never open to their views. And actually, he's not nice to be around. The guy is so narcissistic. This is the problem. He only ever cares about himself, only ever looks at himself.

And Nana are queer is a good woman. Okay? She is a good woman. I don't agree with Nana on lots of stuff, but she is absolutely fiercely loyal. She was with me since day one. at G.B. News. And when I went through my cancellation from G.B. News, she put her own reputation within the company on the line to support me. So I am absolutely team Nana here. And I say good on her for calling Tom Harwood out, live on air, in a fight that has been taking place for some time

now behind the scenes, but which viewers had never actually got to see. watch this it does destroy the idea of user-generated content online Twitter would not exist under a regulatory framework No it doesn't he said you could even do it on an ad hoc basis He said to stop being a publisher To make the platform liable for the content on it You do understand what that would mean

Well yes I do Tom I'm not stupid Okay I do understand that but you don't patronise me I'm not patronising you are just a little bit there I just think you're wrong on this topic Well you can be wrong we can have two different opinions But don't patronise me because I'm not going to tolerate that Well, I don't think anyone did. Right, I think you did.

This is good afternoon, Britain, on GV News. Lots more coming up on to date. Go Nana. Go Nana. And behind the scenes at GB News, I can tell you the producers are totally on her side because this was not a one-off. I mean, look at Tom Howard,

who, by the way, is a trans extremist, like he doesn't believe in women. This is the thing. I think he actually hates women, deep down, because he doesn't believe that women even have a right to exist. And look at his treatment of Emily Carver, his previous co-presenter who is currently on maternity leave,

who equally had so much trouble with the way that he would treat her. Watch. I do believe that there are transgender people who need to be treated with dignity and respect. Okay, sure, but does that mean they get to go in the women's category of pool? And win the competition? Pool, as far as I am aware... And you don't know anything about this, I've looked it up. Pool. Pool is a game where you have balls on a felt serve.

surface and you hit them with a stick, right? So I've actually read what female pool players say about this, and they say that men, biological males, have an advantage in pool because they are taller in general. They have a longer arm span. They also have less wide hips, narrower hips, which apparently is an advantage to. Do you know how tall Harriet Haynes, who is the winner is?

No, I don't, but I'm saying on average. Right, but is that out of... So if there is a woman who is six foot tall, Tom, Tom, you either have a female category or you don't, okay? So if you're arguing that we just have gender-neutral categories in all sports, fine. I'm not. But otherwise you don't have a female category. I'm saying that there are some sports where it's absolutely inappropriate for people who went through male...

But you don't know anything about Paul or anything about sports in general, do you? Should you ban a transgender woman from being a pistol shooting team? Wow, we're not talking about pistol shooting. It's a limit sport. If there's female category, then yes, it should only be for biological females. Chess. Same with that. If there's a female category.

Why do you think women are worse at chess to men? I don't think women are worse at chess. If you have a female category, then you stick to it being female. If you have a male category, you stick to being male. What do you mean by female? If you want no category. But perhaps what's most fascinating is I'm actually told that the bosses of GB News are encouraging these war between co-presenters. Apparently, they love the drama and they love presenters who dislike each other.

And that was sparked from the high ratings between Andrew Pierce and Bev Turner, who did openly and behind the scenes despise each other. Remember this? That is shameful. That is shameful. That is shameful. You have dismissed in one tweet a four-year investigation by the Sunday Times, The Times, and Channel 4 is contemptuously the mainstream media. A 16-year-old girl has complained of being groomed by this man. Two women have said they were raped, and there are more and more cases coming to it. And you say you're a hero.

Don't you think before you say someone's a hero? Hang on. Don't you think before you say he's a hero, you should establish whether these very serious allegations are true? Well, before I tweeted that, I had spoken to... to several sources, close to Brand, close to the Times. How'd you spoke to those four women? The allegations, they're increasing in their number, and I guarantee you this is going to be a huge investigation,

a huge story, and I'm astonished that you leapt to his defence. He doesn't even know who the victims are. Exactly. And they've remained anonymous. This could happen to you, Andrew. If you applaud this, I hope your cupboard is completely free of skeletons. I'm absolutely staggered at your wreck. Your reckless tweet, it's reckless.

Well, it is happening to him at the moment, but that's a whole other story. I mean, I just don't really think Howard's very good at TV either. Someone behind the scenes at TV News, after watching the Nana versus Tom incident, sent me this moment on air. Okay, there are two people, let's call them, well, these are two individuals. who have been accused of being Chinese spies. What happened was a trial was due to take place. There's the trial. But in order, under the Official Secrets Act,

for this trial to go ahead, for these two individuals to be prosecuted, China would have to be designated officially as a threat. This is the word that we've all been hearing about quite so much over the course of the... I've spelled threat wrong. Well, oh, oh, there's an R, there's an R. It's all gone wrong. Okay, don't ever try and do this on live TV with no practice.

Basically, the government had to try and set this as a threat to say that China was a threat in order for the trial to go ahead. They didn't bring forward that evidence. The Conservatives say that there is that evidence. The government didn't bring it forward. The accusation is they didn't bring it forward because they want a trade deal with China. Yay, well done, Tom. Well, I completely messed that up.

I'm frankly embarrassed on national TV. There's an R in threat. I wrote feet. I don't know what a feat is or whether China is one. What are those two things at the top of your diagram again? Just refresh me. These are people. These are the two spies.

Right. Okay. Just. Just curious. Well, I hope that's cleared everything up. So Carl Benjamin, as the man who runs Lotus Eaters, but regularly works with co-presenters, do you actually all secretly hate each other like they do at GB News? No, everyone's really, really good friends here.

We hang out after work and everyone, everyone's just doing a great job here, by the way. So everyone just, we've got a stress-free office. I'm glad I don't have to deal with the problems that they have to deal with. I'm so lucky, frankly. When I see other operations, I'm just like, wow, we have a good. Yeah, that was quite something, wasn't it? I don't blame Nana, actually, because I think, is it not sometimes, like, I hate TV presenters. And there's a lot of them on mainstream TV who pretend to be something they're not.

And I think it's something in the independent media that you can't really do, right? Because we don't have all of the big budgets. And, you know, you can't really hide, can you, on YouTube in the same way? No. No, I mean, we broadcast live every day at 1 o'clock. And it's live. know, if it goes wrong, it goes wrong, but everything seems to go fairly well. But you know what's interesting, though?

I don't know who the constituency of Tom Harwood fans is. For most online presenters or TV presenters, you can roughly guess the kind of people that relate to them and want to watch them. But who wants to watch Tom Harwood? He's kind of annoying. He's kind of a dork. He isn't really very charismatic or charming. And he's not brilliantly informed on any issue that I can think of. So why would I want to watch Tom Howard?

How did he end up where he is? Because he toes the line. He toes the party line. That's the point I would argue he's been on the wrong side. That's a more generous interpretation than I would have given. Now look. But you're right. No, no, I don't doubt that he toes the line.

You're absolutely right. Trans women are women after all. But yeah. So it just makes me wonder who watches GB News for Tom Harwood. No, I don't think of it. For the other presenters he's arguing with, I can completely see the constituency for them. But, you know, who's watching him? Carl, I did want to speak about, though, overall the independent media,

because, of course, you're doing this really in the UK before anyone with Lotus Eaters. I mean, obviously, you had a long career as the Sagan of Arakar before that, but Lotus Eaters really was at the start of that new reality. revolution in 2020. And these new figures this week are quite extraordinary, quite historic in a way with the BBC finally being overtaken by YouTube and even the mainstream media having to admit that this is now an end of an era for mainstream TV. It's like we're not just predicting anymore that the mainstream media is going to die. We are literally watching. its death in real time, aren't we?

Well, I mean, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. I think it's important to remember, though, that the BBC and YouTube, it's not necessarily a direct competition between the two. Obviously, the BBC use YouTube for their services and shows. So YouTube is a different animal to the BBC, obviously being an open platform that anyone can start to channel and start uploading videos on.

It's very different to the BBC. but the thing that what I think is interesting about this is it changes the way we should look at the BBC right as in okay so what's YouTube well it's just there for people to use the BBC by contrast is a very tightly locked down ivory tower that is a state broadcaster and a legacy instrument of the British Empire and a time that has long passed that we still have to pay for so we Why aren't we demanding more accountability out of the BBC? Because, okay, if everyone in the country has to pay for it, well, why are they allowed to have an editorial line that excludes some people for their political beliefs? That shouldn't be possible. If those people have to pay,

then you should have to reflect those people on the BBC, whether the bosses of it like it or not. I mean, I always found it bizarre. Because take Tommy Robinson as an example, right? He, as an activist, is phenomenally successful. He has millions of followers and international recognition. And he's a good speaker. He knows what he wants to say and he's a good talker.

And there's definitely a large constituency of people who want to watch and hear from Tommy Robinson. So why is it out of bounds to say, well, why shouldn't he have the Tommy Robinson show on the BBC at like, you know, Thursday evening at 9 o'clock or something? Whatever? I don't know. But why shouldn't he? But you just know it would never happen. Why are you not on the BBC on any of their shows? Why am I not?

Why aren't any of us? Yeah. Like, this is the thing. Like, we all have really big audiences. Like, people don't understand that, like, once you get past, like, you know, half a million people, that's you being recognized every single day when you go out on the street. No matter where in Britain that you go, right? And I'm sure you get it all the time.

I get it all the time. Everyone from the podcast gets it all the time. People recognize you because that's a huge number, a really big number. And the longer that you do this for, the more famous that you become. And what's interesting is a kind of self-selecting audience. So the people who like you recognize you. The people who don't like you don't watch you and so they don't know who you are. So you get a really kind of positive effect out of it.

But the point is if just people like us, just round, I mean, you know, myself in particular, I just started uploading YouTube videos because I was frustrated by the state of the world. Yes. And lo and behold, I, you know, my main channel's got like 960,000 subscribers. The YouTube for the podcast, the Lotus Cetus is nearly, 600,000, you know, it's a massive, massive numbers. And yet, you get the shows on the BBC that you get. Why shouldn't we be entitled to a voice? We can prove that we have a constituency in the country that pays their license fee and it wants to hear from us. Why should we not have representation?

We've got to pay for it. We should be looking at the BBC in a much more democratic framework, frankly. I totally agree. I mean, they, their idea of what constitutes, our side of the argument is nuts. But that has changed. It has changed. And it changed with the infiltration of woke. Because there was a time when Tommy Robinson did go on news night. Now, sure, they gave him a really hard time. They treated him like a criminal. But he was prepared to go on because his view is that I'll always own you. And even Good Morning Britain, I know it's not the BBC, but had that famous interview with Tommy Robinson and Pierce Morgan not all that long ago. But a decision was made, and I think it was that whole period, wasn't it?

You know, Black Lives Matter, Me Too, the pandemic. But obviously, that's when Lotus Eaters launch. And actually, it was the perfect time to launch an independent platform. And, Carl, how is it going now? Because, of course, these models keep changing. I know at the moment you've got Islander, which is actually your printed magazine. Print magazine. Which is a big thing for you, right?

Yeah, yeah. It's a quarterly magazine that we print. And it's basically we find all of the most interesting right-wing thoughts. Those people who have genuine insights into the state of the world. And we pay them lots of money to write articles for us. And then the editor does incredible art. And it's a really beautiful thing. And this is the best-selling edition we've ever had.

It's been out for a week and we've nearly gone through the entire print run. And because I'm a terrible businessman, I refuse to get any more printed or reprint. Because you like the idea of it being a sort of limited edition. almost. I like, the thing is, because these are, the articles in them are timeless, they're evergreen articles, but because we don't, we don't just

deal with daily politics and things like that. We deal with high-minded philosophical concepts. But the reason is because they mark a moment in time. They speak about where we were in our mindset when we were thinking these thoughts and why we put them to print and why

we felt this way. You know, because each issue has, a theme and we're really trying to get to the very root of all of this and ironically this this this issue's theme is about heroism and power and modernity and weirdly we it takes months to put one of these together and the day before we were publishing it Donald Trump kidnaps Maduro and it was just like oh wow like this is really making the point as in the heroic man is underneath the bureaucrat underneath the suit underneath all of the layers of administration there still beats the heart of the sort of heroic Western man whether you agree with

Donald Trump kidnapping Maduro or not whether you know whether it has good consequence or not the the act itself was the consequence of the fact that the system that we have been living under for such a long time the rules-based international order and the way that our country is run I mean this is what Tommy Robinson in many parts represents he's a lot more of a heroic figure than anyone in the mainstream is prepared to concede what he's gone through personally in his life is quite awful. The way that the system has persecuted, de-platformed and ruined him only for him to keep going and that's a heroic man. And again, you don't have to agree with him, you don't have to like him, but that is objectively true about

him. And it's the same for Trump. And it's the same for almost everyone in the dissident space at this point. I've seen, I mean, I've got so many friends who have been interrogated by counterterrorism police when they just get off the plane, just come home, or they've had, they've been cancelled, They've had it. You know, their livelihoods taken away from them. And yet they're still persisted. And so that's that. Islander is where we can go into a really deep dive about that.

And it's doing great. Like I said, we're a week in and almost half a print run is gone already. And it's like, right, we were planning to sell this for months. So that's good, good luck getting one in the future, folks. And can people still order it from Lotusheaters.com? Is that where you go or is there another? It's shop. Dot lototases.com.

but it will not be long till it's gone. So if you're watching this in a month's time, yeah, you're going to have missed your opportunity. I wish I'd got a bigger print run, frankly. I didn't realize just how popular this particular issue would be. But the next one will come around at something. We tried to do it quarterly, but the thing is, because each one takes a long, it's a labor of love

and an artistic endeavor. And I would rather not rush it. I'd rather wait until it's properly ripe and ready than just say right now, we've got deadlines. right we don't have deadlines with this we do it when we think we should do it and it it's one of those things i'm so phenomenally proud of it i am so proud of it no you should be karl benjamin the founder of lotus eaters.com thank you so much for being here on outspoken today it's been absolutely brilliant on this big day my pleasure is really breaking you you're doing a

great job down by the way i just everyone knows you're doing a great job i've never heard anyone I mean, there are people who don't like you, as you know, but nobody says Dan's got a bad media outlet. Dan's doing, Dan has bad takes on politics. Nobody says that. You're always on the right side of every issue. I'm really, really impressed to see how you've grown. Thank you, Carl.

Well, that means a lot coming from you, given everything that you have done. So thank you so much. Carl Benjamin of lotus eaters.com. Please come back soon. And actually, huge feedback from you today on this day of breaking news. Madison Hampton says people complaining about Tory defectors to reform UK. Where would we expect to source the talent that possesses government experience to help govern?

Captain Snort says, do Dan and Carl actually believe Jenrick is his own man and doesn't have string pullers behind the scenes? Come on, guys. Don't insult people's intelligence. Linda, you says Douglas has said that he himself gets off with words compared to Tommy. Yes, he has. Actually, I mean, he's been really supportive of Tommy Robinson. This isn't about this being the fault of Douglas Murray. It's about the fault of people who view Douglas Murray in a different way to Tommy Robinson.

I'm confused his. I'm tired of conservative politicians no matter what party they were in. And on Layla Cunningham. I like this from Englishman James. She's doing Tequia about Tekea. She is. She actually is. Although Carl didn't think that.

I don't know. The jury is out. Here are your nominees for today's worst Britain in the world. Our Union Jackass. Tom Harwood. nominated by Darren Donaldson for his patronising talkdown of Nana Acquare. Ed Davy, nominated by the Gryft Report for being addicted to X while calling for its suspension. And Matt Cass nominated Shibana MacMood, the Home Secretary over the MacAbee, the Tel Aviv Maccabee incident.

7% of you have gone for Tom Howard, 28% Ed Davy, but by a long way. Today's Union Jackass, the worst British in the world today. Step forward, Shabana MacMood. And we have a brilliant honorary greatest Britain to date. My God, she deserves this. It's Eva Vladenbrook, who was banned from entering the country. You can watch my exclusive interview with Eva talking all about this on YouTube. Just head to the videos tab.

You will see it right there. There it is. There it is. An outspoken exclusive. And it really is worth watching. She was nominated, by the way, by Chafsey. Thank you so much for your company. today we move over to Substack now though for the uncanncled after show where Prince Harry's

delusional court case against the Daily Mail could finally ruin his reputation once and for all. We will preview what will go down next week with Tom Sikes of the Royalist Substack, www. www. outspoken.com. A little bit of housekeeping, of course, hit subscribe on YouTube. It's totally free and help us get to 700,000 subscribers. That would mean a lot. You can also please subscribe to our podcast, which is available on Apple Podcast. podcast or Spotify and is completely free. I will be back with you though tomorrow 5pm UK time midday Eastern 9 a.m Pacific most importantly I promise to keep fighting for you.