Dan Wootton Outspoken - TWO PENSIONERS FROM RESTORE & REFORM FIGHT BENJAMIN BUTTERWORTH IN MILLENNIAL VS BOOMER DEBATE

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

It’s a brand new episode of The Clash where the wokest man in Britain Benjamin Butterworth – a disgruntled millennial and long-time critic of the elderly and pensioners – goes head to head with two so-called boomers: Restore Britain’s Henry Bolton & Reform UK’s Roger Gewolb. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for new videos every day: https://youtube.com/@danwoottonoutspoken?si=-2BhmEbBSN1fyESS?sub_confirmation=1 ---------- Find the full audio show wherever you get your podcasts: Apple — https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dan-wootton-outspoken/id1762436723 Spotify — https://open.spotify.com/show/19Ltoneek2MSPL10CpSA1J?si=8f6d84e2db56448c ---------- Follow Dan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@outspokendan Follow Dan on Twitter: https://x.com/danwootton Follow Dan on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/danwootton/ Follow Dan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danwootton/?hl=en #DanWootton#DanWoottonOutspoken#news#outspoken#uknews Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The boomers are the most entitled generation this country has ever seen. This has gone too far and the champagne taps have to be turned off. Do not attack pensionists. What you're trying to do is demonise and cause hatred towards old people in the elderly. That is how they feel. Benjamin, I've seen, well, I've seen their responses. That is how they feel. Of course they're entitled.

That you are spreading hatred towards them. Absolutely. Now, what is crippling our economy? Lazy young people on welfare. How, Jay. How absolutely, James. You hear you. That's the fact.

You're getting very aggressive. Stop pointing and shouting at me. Stop being so bloody proactive. You're coming across as quite an unpleasant man. So are you. We do better if we sent some of the pensioners to Rwanda and let the migrants stay. Those are the people that are trying to build a life here. You know these people are coming in.

They're rapists, they're terrorists, their murderers, their drug traffickers. It's not disgusting. It's a fact. It is disgusting. They risk their lives to build a life here. Bullshit. This is suicidal empathy. You trying to present these absolute scumbags as patriots.

Patriots, they are here to kill us. You need to wake up. It's extraordinary to realise there's no low you really won't go to. You can look it up, just Google. That are all registered. Just impressed you can still use Google. Do you have a hatred of the elderly, though? Skilled work of easers.

You do. You're suggesting elderly people can't use Google. There's no point debating with the irrational and the deluded. We should all stand up and say, thank you, Sir Keir. You made Britain better. Slippri Starma is a traitor, and I believe he should be locked up. I don't know whether Russia's funding. you. Who knows why you're making these arguments?

Oh no, you've just made an accusation linking me to Russia. He thinks thou dof betest too much. Neither. No, spin, no bias, no censorship. I'm Dan Wooden. This is a special edition of Outspokeners. We're bringing you a brand new episode of The Clash. We're the wokenest and maybe the most agest to man in Britain, Benjamin Butterworth, a disgruntled millennium, long-term critic.

of the elderly and pensioners goes head to head with two so-called boomers, Restore Britain's Henry Bolton and Reform UK's Roger Giewolb. I have no idea what is going to go down today. But let me tell you, I'm very excited. Let's go. So Leftist GB News star Benjamin Butterworth has long sparked fury with his regular declarations on our beloved elderly and pensioners, including war veterans, who he argues are crippling the opportunities of young people, and as a result, it's time to turn off all the champagne taps.

If Benjamin is to believe the lack of opportunities for the younger generation are all to be blamed on state handouts and support for pensioners. Oh, you know, the type of pensioners that fought for our freedoms in World War II. Yes, those types of pensioners. But Benjamin, who is 34 years old, is not going to get it all his own way today. In this special edition of The Clash, he is going up against Restore Britain's spokesman on national security, Henry Bolton, who is 63, I am told, and Reform UK's Roger, he was 83. Although I can't believe that, Roger, I can't believe it. So let's not even, let's not even confirm it because you've got the youth and exuberance of a 38-year-old.

Okay, Benjamin, you have 60 seconds to make your case on why you think pensioners are the ones crippling your lifestyle. Go. Well, the fact is that these people did not fight for the country in the Second World War at all, not unless they're more than 95 years old. What you've got is the kids of the people who fought. The boomers are the most entitled generation this country has ever seen. They have benefited more than anybody else. We have a situation now where we spend £170 billion on pensionants and their benefits each year. Now that is completely unsustainable.

And so I think it is totally unsurious, in fact, quite selfish that these people think that those of us who go to work every day to turn this economy should be funding their P&O cruise holidays with millions and billions of pounds. I'm afraid that this has gone too far and the champagne taps have to be turned on. off. The winter fuel allowance was nothing more than that champagne fund, and we need to get real about the finances. Oh my goodness. That was so hard for me not to say anything, but how respectful was I? Okay, Henry Bolton, there are going to be so many people sitting at home saying, I'm sorry, we have paid in our taxes for decades. Correct. Well, look, there's two things there. First of all, the state pension doesn't pay out more than about, well, just below 13,000 pounds. So that's the state pension.

Now that is try and survive on 13,000 pounds. I did not interrupt you. Try and survive on 13,000 pounds. Now the additional... It's not champagne tax. The uplift on that is actually paid for through people's own personal pension schemes. Now that money that they put into those pension schemes

has been taxed. Yes, there's been an incentive to do that, but it has been taxed. So what? Are you now suggesting that we should tax income twice? Well, actually, we're taxing income a great deal more than that. We're taxing it numerous times through VAT, through fuel duties, through everything else. But is not the answer to the problem that you're concerned about,

which is the opportunities for young people, in domestic policy in other areas, such as housing, such as employment? We've just had a chancellor who has imposed swinging expenses, huge expenses on businesses through national insurance contributions. Business rates are sky high. And we've got a situation now where businesses can't employ people. Now, I know that because that chancellor, Rachel Reeves, is the direct reason why my business collapsed.

Okay. Former Chancellor, thank God now. Rachel from accounts. So that's the answer. Do not attack pensionists. And you say that those people who, who, fought in World War I and World War II are no longer with us. So we're not, it's not, it's their sons and granddaughters now. Well, I fought for this country. A lot of people I know are finding

life incredibly difficult veterans. And you're just dismissing his service. You are dismissing his service. Benjamin, you are and you know that you are. It's a disgrace. You cannot. Is it a disgrace? This is the problem. Just find my final point. This is the problem. You, it's very easy to come out with these broad brush statements, and there might be some exceptions of people there who, and I totally agree that people, you know, there should be some limit on the amount of money that people can accrue without paying back into the system. And there should not be, in other words, there should not be loopholes for the immensely wealthy that aren't available to the less wealthy to invest their money abroad and so on. But my point is, you cannot go around and build policy on these broad brush

statements that the veterans are no longer with us, because that's absolute tosh. That was a disgrace, Benjamin. That was a complete disgrace, because what you seem to be suggesting is that people like Henry, who have fought for this country, simply because they did so after World War II, that's meaningless. And that is going to infuriate people. No, because quite frankly, a person who is younger that has put their life on the line by joining our armed forces should have just as much protection. Now, first of all, I mean, it's interesting that you give your great economic pitch by pointing out that you're a failed businessman.

I'd say that's a novelty. How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? You just said your business failed. In January, I set up a business based on what was the predictable business environment at that time.

Then the Chancellor, then the Chancellor came in and changed the goalposts. Look, Henry, I think you need to calm down. No, no. You're getting very aggressive. No, you're, for you to sit there and say I'm a failed businessman,

Have you ever set up her business? Are you a successful business? No. I'm pretty successful being self-employed. I'm sorry, but that was a disgusting, that's two things. You described yourself. Benjamin, this is the leftist view because you have to accept. Let me answer to some of the points.

Most successful millionaires have run a failed business. How many businessmen out there have their businesses failed? Are you talking to them all and saying that they're all failed? You stop pointing and shouting at me. Stop being so bloody proactive. You're coming across as quite an unpleasant man. frankly, Henry. No, I'm not. And the point that you miss is that I'm not saying that taxes should be higher. I'm saying that if taxes would be lower, if we weren't giving such an extraordinary

amount to people that have taken out far more than they put in. Now, it was a Conservative MP who posted this a few weeks ago, a few months ago, that said that by the age of 75, the average 75-year-old has taken £300,000 more out of the state than they paid in. That's not just in pensions, that's in all the other issues. Because with people living longer, obviously you get more serious health conditions. And so you have a situation where they're taking out so much more than they put in. You know, for example, the average pensioner now has more disposable income

than the average person going to work full-time in their 20s. Well, let's bring Roger in on that. In prior-to-let properties owned by over 50s. Let's bring Roger in on that. They are taking all the wealth. Because, Roger, you are in that age where Benjamin is just saying, you are now a drain on the state. You're just taking in more money, Roger.

So I guess you should be punished for that, according to Benjamin. Your response? Well, I agree with him. I think he's charmingly loquacious, and you just have to disregard the fact that what he says has no basis whatsoever in logic or fact. But apart from that small... It's all going well. Apart from that small wrinkle, I think it's quite good.

The winter fuel allowance will buy a pensioner to maybe three bottles of champagne a year. I go to a lot of pensioner sex parties where the champagne flows and it's fantastic. I mean, the lives that we have. My eyes, my eyes! The lives that we have are fantastic. And the cruises, oh my God. I mean, I know so many pensioners that go on cruises. and of course, none of them have actually earned any of that money themselves.

You're absolutely right. They've stolen it from the state through all kinds of means. It's the point you're making, though. You're trying to paint a picture of pensioners living in this lifestyle. As Henry said, I didn't interrupt you through your long diatribe, which made no sense whatsoever. But, you know, the pensioners earned their money and really the life of a pensioner, if you actually know any, Benjamin.

I was raised by pensioners. You were raised by pensioners. Well, that explains a lot. But in any event, you know, Henry's right. 13,000 pounds a year is what you get. The winter fuel allowance. Fuel allowance is neither here or there. The only thing that that did was established that poor Kira Starmor's judgment was not very good to do that within days of becoming prime minister.

Not a clever move. And no, the pensioners do not extract more than they have put in. That's nonsense. They put in... That's completely false. It's not completely false. It's totally not fully false. You do not...

Your pension... I don't know when... I'm assuming you've been here your adult life. The pension you paid in is not the pension you are taking out. Oh, really? You paid for your parents.

Well, you don't know how much tax Rogers paid. I have paid. I don't. I can tell you... He's probably more than paid for it. Roger's a very successful man. I can tell you that... We really were like, Roger, we wouldn't have a problem.

I can tell you that I can tell you that I've paid more in than I've... I've taken out. But I agree with you. I think the old people should basically be put on small boats and sent away somewhere. And it is the fault of these old people that young people are having the problems they're having. The facetiousness is making a very good point. Because Benjamin, can I just ask you a couple of questions? I've obviously been aware of your media appearances for a long time.

Actually, in some ways, you might say, I made you very, very famous by putting you on the first night of GP News. And Benjamin, can I just clarify, you're against Ray. racism, aren't you? Of course. You're against homophobia. Of course. You're against sexism. Uh-huh.

You're against this made-up thing called Islamophobia? Yes, it's a form of racism. And you're against this made-up thing called transphobia about this made-up group. There's nothing made up about the latter. So you're against all of that. Yet, funny, you seem to be the country's biggest proponent of ageism. Nonsense. What absolute hypocrisy.

The only age is. are those that think that working young people should have to pay ever more into the pockets of pensioners, a third of whom are now worth more than a million pounds. Wait, wait a minute. When did an employee put money in the pocket of a pensioner? Well, because when you have a situation like the triple lock, other than by mugging, when you have a situation like the triple lock, which means that the amount that we spend on pensions has gone up by 70 billion pounds since 2019-20. Now, that is an extraordinary rise. And that's because the triple lock means that you, the pensions go up either by inflation. And what does the triple, what does the triple lock have to do

with pensioners? They didn't set it. That's literally, that's literally the question. The triple lock. Let me finish explaining, because it goes up either by inflation, by the amount that salaries go up or by 2.5%, whichever is higher. That's right. So that means that during the COVID pandemic, when we had horrendous levels of inflation. People's pensions went up by 10%, while workers had their pay by cut by at least a fifth if they were on furlough. You then had a bounce afterwards when salaries went up and the 14 interest rate rises, which prolonged and fueled inflation by the ever-stumbling balioceros, which I call him because he's so stubborn, he doesn't listen to people who runs the bank of England. Those interest rate rises fueled.

the increase in inflation and cause the triple lock to go up. Nothing to do, nothing to do with pensioners. You can have a debate about what causes inflation, but the people that were least affected by it got the best outcome. The fact that you've added 70 billion pounds to the public cost in just a couple of years. To get rid of the triple lock. Well, that's not where you started. We started off this discussion about pensioners and about how pensioners are living the life of Riley,

going on their cruises to, that's what you said. Sex parties. Did he mention sex parties? No, me, I did. I just quite insistent on that one. But actually, if we'd had a conversation to start with about the triple lock, can the country afford it? Yes, no. No.

Then we could have had a rational debate about that. There we could have cut the whole thing short. No, because that's not what we're debating. You weren't so busy yelling, Henry, you might have heard it. If you weren't so busy interrupting and coming out with obtuse comments about veterans and business. I didn't say anything. I wouldn't say a word about that. Please will you stop and let me finish.

Children, calm down a moment. The point is, this is about this domestic policy. What has the triple lock got to do with what we're talking about? Nothing. And by the way, Benjamin, can I just explain something that I think you are completely missing in this argument? Henry, in my view, is right. We can have a debate about the triple lock.

That is a very different debate. But actually, what you're trying to do is demonize and cause hatred towards old people and the elderly. That is how they feel. Benjamin, I've seen their responses. That is how they feel. Of course they're entitled. That you are spreading hatred towards them. Absolutely. I'm an older person and I don't feel that you love or respect

me. I don't, it's not about the age. It's about the entitlement. That's how they feel, Benjamin. And the idea that we should get the workers paying such a fortune ever more every year, 23 billion pounds extra this year. You talk about veterans. But how does that go to old people? If only you didn't take the triple lock, then we would be able to fund the gas on our defense.

It goes on, it grows on paying for my, it goes on. You have been, no, no, no, no, no, I've got to come in here because you were being so disingenuous. Why don't they pay our defense bill? What is crippling our economy? Lazy young people on welfare? And I'm sorry, I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it because we're going to come to the migrant situation. It's easy to kick young people.

Why don't you talk to the people that are actually taking up the wealth? We could fund the gap in our defense budget. So you don't think we have an issue with our welfare bill. What do you think about, Henry? You care a great deal about defense. I don't believe we can. I don't think that's the way to. It goes up by $23 billion.

I think the way... You're overlooking the fact that this money that you're talking about funds a zillion different things, much of which is wasted... Saga cruises, T&O holidays. No, no, not just pensions. It funds migrants. It finds all kinds of useless government projects that never go anywhere. You are painting a picture.

Look, and Roger obviously made this point facetiously, but you are painting a picture of our struggling pensioners in this country, living the life of Riley. Most of them cannot afford food. We're not thinking you get away with that. Because the thing that I find most... Well, why do you keep talking about saga cruises then? What is all right?

You're painting the impression that all of these pensioners are on cruises. It's bullshit. Nearly 30% of retirees are worth more than a million pounds. Now, what I find... Because they've got a house that they paid for. Now, if you're talking about house... That's fine. They should pay for themselves, right?

I don't get how this became a left-wing view that the state shouldn't fund people that have got more than ample resource. The fact is that if these people didn't get these ever bigger handouts, then we would have lower taxes, a better economy. So these ever bigger handouts are. What do you mean? You mean take away the 13 grand a year? You think that's going to make a difference?

Nobody lives on $13,000 a year. If you're on only the state pension, you'll get all sorts of things like housing credit, other benefits that you're entitled to. So it's an exaggeration to say that. Benjamin, Benjamin, more than a million, more than a million young people aged 16, to 24 and not in education, employment or training.

Roughly 794,000 claim universal credit. There is no reason for those people not to be working. It is your precious young people who are crippling the economy. The pensioners, who you were talking about, worked when they were younger. Do you not understand? Can you not acknowledge that actually the big issue that we've got is young people out of work in this country? Well, first of all, businesses might be doing better if we didn't have such high taxes to fund things like the trip or not. That's usually not to work, Benjamin.

And the fact is when people talk about the poorest pensioners, those that get the lowest and don't have a proper private sector pension, well, actually, they should get a better deal. There are people in poverty that are pensioners. So why don't those in one, two, three million pound houses who want the triple lock, who want 10% rises in a single year as they've had in recent years, why don't they say, I'm not going to take all that money, I'll let the poorest. They don't, because it's about a sense of entitlement among some boomers.

And that is what is crippling Britain. Okay, hold that thought. Because it is time for the second part of our clash featuring a very disgruntled millennial up against two boomers. And this is such an important part of the conversation. Migrants. Our migrants really treated more poorly

in the United Kingdom than pensioners. Now, I think we can agree. Both get support from the state, but which group is actually worse off in modern Britain? Well, to me, it seems very clear, right? These illegals who come into the country get put up in sometimes five-star hotels, get handed mobile phones the moment they're off by woke and wet charities. They get fed, beautiful food, they get clothed in designer clobber,

and they do not even have to go to work. So surely I would say it's the migrants. And that is why we are now, I believe, embracing suicidal empathy in this country. But disagreeing with me, is the wokest man in Britain? Don't assume my gender. The highly ageist Benjamin Butterworth,

independent journalist, who is debating alongside Restore Britain's Henry Bolton and Roger Guilwell's, Roger, sorry, Reform UK is Roger Guil, whose job is to take him down on this very issue. So, let's clash. Benjamin, 60 seconds, I think, to prove the impossible. Why do you believe migrants are being treated worse than pensioners in the UK? Well, quite frankly, what this country needs is more people of working age, going out, building the economy and paying taxes.

So let's be honest, we do better if we send some of the pensioners to Rwanda and let the migrants stay. Those are the people that are trying to build a life here. We've got a situation where you have a section of society, the elderly, taking out far more than they've ever put in. Meanwhile, the vast majority of people that migrate to Britain do here to build a life. We know that the numbers of employment is higher among migrants. The amount they earn is higher than the average British board. And so we need those people to come to this country to build it. You're saying you can't interrupt. You're saying this. You're saying this. Hold that thought, Roger.

We've got to be fair. Illegal migrants work and earn more? Don't be ridiculous. We've got to give Benjamin his minute. We've got to give Benjamin his minute. I want some of what he's smoking. Roger, you've got to just let Benjamin finish uninterruptions. Bad enough he's got his hand in my pocket all the time.

Now he's talking over me too. The fact is that we need these people to come here and to work, and that's why we should welcome migrants. If we had more migrants, we might be able to afford some of the extra pensions. I'm an illegal migrant. I got a really good job and I'm learning a shit. shedload of money. It's terrific. And when I retire, I'm going to have a pension and steal it from all the young people in this town. Yeah, I like it. You're right. I mean, Benjamin, come on. The people who are coming in, you are painting a polyanarish society. They're not working. Exactly. And Henry Bolton of Restore Britain, you know these people are coming in. They're rapists, their terrorists, their murderers, their drug traffickers. It's not disgusting. It's a fact. It's disgusting. You're telling me that people that come from Europe, people that come from the US, they're migrants. They come here to work hard. They're not illegal. Migrants on small boats. Benjamin, they're not all rapists.

That's clear. And that's not what Dan is saying. Only the pensioners. I know because I led the UK's efforts at disrupting transnational organized crime through the Southern Balkans. Intelligence led, 12 UK agencies all plugging their intelligence into it, plus domestic intelligence from down in the countries involved. And the team I led detected people who had fundamentalists.

Wait a minute. It was an oxymoron. Placed into the people smuggling networks to come to the UK and Europe. Okay, it is a fact. It's not something I've heard. It's not something I've read. It's operations that I've led. Okay?

So it is a fact that this is happening. We also know for a fact, well-recorded fact, that illegal migrants into Europe and the UK have committed terrorist attacks, rapes, murders. Some of them have already committed those offenses, terrorism, rape and murder, before coming into the United Kingdom. And we're allowing them to walk our streets.

That's a security issue, but that's possibly not the issue that we're here discussing. We're discussing whether they're treated better or worse than our pensioners. Okay. In terms of whether they're being treated better or worse, these are illegal, the illegal immigrants that are coming in. To my mind, are criminal. They have entered the United Kingdom illegally and motivated by economic means. What, they want to come here and work. Isn't that what we need?

You say they're motivated by economic means. I think you're saying the most outrageous things, Ben. just to gain publicity. I'm sorry, but I think you do better saying you were seized by aliens or something. That's the third debate. So the other thing is, so they're coming here because they get things. Now, if you speak to the French in northern France, the gendarmerie and so on, which is where they're coming from. Correct. They will tell you that one of the reasons, quietly, off the record, they will tell you that the reason that they don't try and stop the boats with as much gusto and energy and determination as you,

and others think they might, is because from their point of view, the only reason that those people are on the North French coast and in the north of France is because the United Kingdom makes the United Kingdom an attractive destination for them to come to. Yes, you can't blame them.

It's probably better than a rural area of Sudan or Ethiopia or somewhere. So fine, I get that, but the duty of this government is to protect its people from the sort of threats that we've just been talking about and also protect itself economically. We are paying about $8 billion a year for these economic migrants to come into the country. That's a lot of money.

Okay, that might help your course. Now, finally, you contradicted yourself. Yes, there is, because I'm addressing points that you raised. You stated that about a million migrants are unemployed. But then you stated we need them to come here to work. That is a contradiction. I don't think I did state that. You did.

Once again, like the previous question, we're talking about something completely unrelated to the point that Dan made. I mean, the point is, migrants are treated worse than pensioners. Look, the fact is that the people that come over... And if they're illegal, they should be. The people who come over and smoke votes are a tiny fraction of the number of people that migrate to this country. And I've got good news for you, Henry. The number is almost halved in the first six months of this year compared with the previous.

And do you know why? Because the policy is brought in by the previous conservative government. I think two and a half years into a Labour government, you give credit. Otherwise, you look... We're not talking about immigration. We're talking about this outrageous statement that migrants are treated worse than pensioners. So explain it. You're a migrant.

I know you are, I assume, by that accent. I'm a migrant. Many, many years ago, I'm also British. So what? I mean, I'm a legal migrant. Are you talking about legal or illegal migrant? So in 99% of people who come to this country and they come here to work? How on earth can you say with a straight face that an illegal, that an illegal invader, that's true.

That's one thing we're on. Who's broken the law. Then a legal invader who breaks the law, as Henry says, before they've even raped or pillaged the natives. Don't talk about people fleeing war in that way. They're not denying. They're not fleeing war. They're fleeing France.

And I know France is a hellhole under Macron, but it's not a war-torn nation. Look, you haven't been to Sudan, a country that is experiencing a genocide. You haven't been to Yemen. They're coming from France. These are awful places where they are fleeing. I have seen from France. I have seen people.

You don't know where I've been. France. But you will also know how awful some of these places have been in recent times. So awful. I mean, how many countries in the world are less economic, provide fewer economic opportunities to an educational opportunities, even healthcare opportunities,

than the United Kingdom? Probably, well, I don't know, but probably there are, it's probably in the region of about 150, 160 countries, okay, thereabouts. And are you suggesting that anybody in those countries really should have, a right to come here because, after all, they can have a better life here. It doesn't sound like you believe in borders is what Henry is saying.

No, I believe in borders. And you are trying to malign hardworking people who risk their lives if they are coming from a place like Sudan or Yemen or maybe Afghanistan. They risk their lives to build a life here. Bullshit. Many of them are very grateful to be here. Speak to the mother of Rianan White. Stabbed 23 times through the head with a screwdriver.

by one of those great men. One of those great men who comes off the boat from France and then immediately goes and kills her daughter who was working at one of the migrant hotels. I'm sorry, Benjamin. This is suicidal empathy. You trying to present these absolute scumbags as patriots. They are here to kill us.

You need to wake up. And you as a gay man in particular need to wake up because they hate you. You did. Go visit them in Sudan. How's that working out? I'm afraid I have been to South. The other thing is, if somebody breaks into my country, okay, illegally, then I don't care.

I want them to be treated. You'd say this to the Jews, would you do in the 1940s? You pick the Jews out. Listen, breaks into my country illegally. I want them treated worse than our pensioners. The Jews didn't break into this country. I want our pensioners treated better. That's a rewriting of history.

Can we move? Many of the Jewish people that came here. Can we move on to the next one, because Benjamin isn't faring it about any better on this question than you did on the first. Hang on, your orgy of lies won't last any longer. The fact is that many of the Jewish people that came here in the 1940s had to come here on fake documents because the UK government wouldn't let them in. You know full well, there was a government you know full well that there was a British government scheme that quite happily welcomed the Jewish people who were fleeing the Nazis into this country. A very small number. Many of them had to have

fake documents and that's a well-reported part of history. But the question we're talking about here is not just people that flee war. It is. the many migrants like Roger who've come here to build a better life and we should be grateful for them. If we had more taxpayer workers like them, you might be able to fund the pensionists. What would you say? Because you've avoided my specific example.

What would you say to Chivonne White, who sat in that very seat, who sat where you are, and begged for a meeting with Slippery Stama because of the fact that his government allowed an illegal into this country via the small boats and then went on to stab her daughter to death

21 times through the head with a screwdriver. Benjamin, you are presenting these people as beautiful, wonderful characters who we just need to welcome in. And I'm sorry, Chavonne is just one example of the many families who have been destroyed by the people we are letting in. So please, what do you say to her? Do you honestly say to her? Do you honestly look her in the eye and say, that was a good person? I don't use his name, by the way, because she asked me not to use his name. but he danced on camera when he returned to the migrant hotel having killed her daughter.

Do you look at her and say, no, Chauvonne, this is great, this is wonderful. These people are going to change our society for the better. I have said nothing of the sort. Well, what would you say to her then? Clearly what happened there is monstrous and nobody would want that to happen. Well, you do want it to happen. Don't say that. The people that come to this country should be detained and assessed for their eligibility to stay in the country.

Well, that's what was happening. that we should take by your argument, zero people who are fleeing war and poverty and extreme behaviour is completely wrong. Even Donald Trump doesn't say that. Let me make my argument very clear, because what we're talking about here is where the migrants are treated worse than pensioners, right? Now, I think the migrants, especially the illegal migrants, are treated much better. And so let me be very clear about. They get about 40 quid a week. I mean, I don't think anybody, you talk about what people can live on. I don't think you can live off that. Free health care, free taxes, basic doctors that we don't have.

What, you want them to die in the streets? Well, no, what I want to... Did I say that? Well, you just said they shouldn't get free health care. I didn't. I did not. So what do you mean? We've been here a while.

We've been here a while. Good to make a point. Look, all of this talk over the last 31 minutes and 35 seconds has been two points. Pensioners get treated better than young people and migrants. And you haven't defined whether it's legal or illegal. get treated worse than pensioners. Pensioners have it too good. It's basically the substance of what you're saying.

That is the substance of what you're saying. And all the rest we're discussing is... All the rest of what we've been discussing is a lot of waffle. And you haven't proved the point in either case as far as I'm concerned. What I'm saying is that people that come here as migrants to work are essential. Legal or illegal. People who come here, Benjamin, let me say this. Somebody who comes here as a legal migrant,

such as myself is on a par with you. Well, Dan hates you too. He wants everybody to be stopped. Is on a par with you guys. The minute I'm a legal migrant, I mean, you'd kick Roger out, would you? No, I'm not saying that.

The minute, in this decade to go, you would say, Benjamin, please, let me finish. Why don't you explain to Roger? Why he should be in the country? Benjamin, be quiet. Let me finish. He's gone silent now, hasn't he?

Yeah. No, I'm respect. I'll come back on me. Let me finish. The minute I become a legal migrant, I'm on a par with you. And we're all competing for the same thing. It's the illegal migrants that we're talking about here.

But they are the people who are treated much better. And they are treated. In terms of what you're saying, Benjamin, just like in America, if there are absolutely top quality people, like Roger, very successful, very unique, who can absolutely prove that they will make a fundamental difference over many decades to this country, then maybe just maybe we consider taking them in. But right now, right now, given the state. state of this country, I believe

all immigration needs to be stopped overnight, all of it. And actually, and obviously Benjamin on top of that, millions need to go home. Remigration. Which millions? What do they look like, Dan? Oh, well, they look like the, they look like the man who stabbed react to him.

Before, I don't know. Before you, before you go on, before you go on, I don't agree. that all immigration to stop. I think every country needs migrants, but they need to be legal migrants. Now, somebody fleeing war-torn Sudan or wherever who enters illegally... How do they enter legally?

Henry wants to come in. Who enters illegally. How would they enter legally? Please let me finish. Who enters illegally and is let in fine, as long as that is handled properly. But they aren't working in a job

and contributing to the economy. Okay, let Henry come in. Okay, number one, okay, that when people come into the country to work and legitimately and they're contributing, that's one thing, okay? When they come in illegally or illegally, and they commit a crime, they should be out. They should be gone. Of course they should. No ifs, no buts.

And anybody who's here on their ticket should be going as well. So if they've got dependents here, I don't care where they're at school or whatever. If you are so irresponsible as to know that you're here as a guest and you commit a crime, you and anybody who's here because of you leaves. That's fine. The other thing is that we're not about criminals. It's about hard workers. Listen to me.

You have this real tendency to interrupt, Benjamin. You ought to work on that. Now, the other thing is that... It's because he's young. He'll change when he becomes a pensioner. Do you think so? Yeah, yeah, you might do. He'll get polite at that point.

But the other thing, Benjamin, is that if you talk about legal roots and on, but at the moment, we have got a plethora of businesses. If you look it up, there's 140,000 plus businesses that you can look it up, just Google that are all registered to, to sponsor skilled worker visas. So you have a hatred of the elderly, though. Skilled worker visas. You do. I did not.

You were suggesting that elderly people can't use Google. I've actually, I've just been, about a week ago, I went around my local town and I found vape shops that are on there. I found a curry house that's on there. On what Google? Benjamin, if you look at, listen, there is really no point in this, okay? You just don't care about anybody else's views. Stop, stop interrupting and listen. There are over 140,000 businesses in this country that are registered to sponsor skilled worker visas. Okay, they're bringing people in from all sorts of countries who unquestionably are not in any way skilled. They

don't even fit the government definition of skilled, okay, but they're coming in because they're sponsored by a registered business. These, as far as I'm concerned, that's a backdoor. It's legal, but it damn well shouldn't be because these people aren't contributing. And as Dan said earlier, there's over a million young and employed Brits who should be working. In Vagest shops. But these people are coming in being paid less than the Brits are under the radar. And you know what? You are missing in all of your calculations. You love you. You love you. You love. He's right. You love the label.

You're pretending to agree when actually... No, you love the labels. You love all the broad brush strokes. Even you disagree with Dan. Even you think we should have some immigration, which is obviously the only sensible answer. Who is going to care for our elderly if we don't have migrants in our cameras? I've said all migration to this country should be paused.

Yes, you make your final point, Henry. Final point on this. If you go and work in Brussels or in Vienna or Berlin, okay, as a Brit, you get a job there. You go and live there. You've got a wife and family there, okay? But you're still a British city. not an Austrian, German, whatever citizen,

when that job comes to an end, you leave the country. It is not a path to remaining, okay? It is not. Now you and your ilk, and I mean, you open borders, people, because that's quite clearly what you want. I did tell you about open borders. If you want a stormant to argue, I'm sure I can draw you on. Okay, in that case, do you agree that when somebody's come here to do a job of work

and that job ends, either because they resign, or because they're made redundant, or for whatever reason, then they leave. Do you support that? Yes or no? I think people that come to this country and build a career and build a life, ideally, they seek British citizenship in order to stay. So they come here.

That doesn't happen in Austria at all, does it? That's not how many European countries do it. It's actually a great deal more difficult in Austria and Denmark and so. In Denmark, they're actually deporting people who are born in Denmark, okay? Who are Danish citizens, but they're also citizens of elsewhere? Under a Labour government in Denmark. Under a social democratic government.

I'm sorry, what you have proven, Benjamin, during this conversation, that we need migrants. No, is that you will happily... Who's going to pay these pensions? Is that you will happily attack the elderly, but you will not attack illegal migrants, even when I bring you examples of how they are raping,

pillaging, no, that's completely false, and terrorising our country. That is a vile characterization to make. Well, we're going to disagree. It's extraordinary to realize there's no low you really won't go to. The fact is, this country... Say that to Chauvonne White.

This fact is... Say that to Chauvonne White. Well, you're not honoring that horrific, by exaggerating and mischaracterizing other people. And trust me, I'll put Chauvinne there with you, and I'm not exaggerating a word. But look, we can celebrate today because at least slippery Starmer is no longer Prime Minister. I know it's over a week on, but I keep on just pinching myself and I feel so happy about it. But his legacy remains.

Oh my God, don't get too excited because I think I saw Andy Burnham leaving his house at 3 in the morning. where he was getting coaching on how to run the country, because he said that in Makerfield, the thing he heard most was that the government must move the income tax threshold. Now, the income tax threshold is 12,570 pounds, and people who are low earners or pensioners are dragged into the tax net by what's called fiscal drag, and paying taxes that they shouldn't be paying.

The thresholds should move with inflation, but it's frozen. It's frozen number five years. Okay, hold that thought. Hold that thought because I just want to set it up, but you are right. One of Britain's shortest serving prime ministers is out the door, and many of us celebrated, but there was one person who genuinely grieved the loss of slippery Starmer, that being the woken man in Britain, Benjamin Pasterworth. Benjamin is so deluded, and I can't believe this.

actually thinks Stama did a good job. But I'm happy to report that he's alone on that one in this room, at least as he's alongside Restore Britain's Henry Bolton and Reform UK's Roger Gibob, whose job is to take down Benjamin on I think his troubled

thinking. So, okay, Benjamin, let's clash on this because I'm genuinely shocked 60 seconds. Roger? Let me do. Henry, no, no, no. You've got to be silent for 60 seconds, okay? Then you can come back because we have to give Benjamin the respect to have his 60 seconds to make the case that slippery Stama was a good

Prime Minister. Go. Well, look, I might be alone in this room, but I think millions of people across the country mourned the departure of Sir Keir Stama. He was a man who brought stability, who returned dignity to the office of British Prime Minister. He's a man who was honoured by the French President by Zelensky in Ukraine with medals for his commitment to security in Europe, something that surely we all agree is essential. He's a person who lifted hundreds of thousands of kids out of poverty by changing the rules to ensure that they get the benefits that they can afford the basics. He's a man who lifted the economy. So for the first time since 2008, we have

wages increasing faster than inflation. These are the kind of things that may be in studios like this. People with fancy jobs like yours don't care about. But for actual working class people in this country, he made a real difference. And we should all stand up and say, thank you, Sir Kea, you made Britain better. Do you know what, never, Henry Bolton, and I mean this, I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Slippery Stama. Slippery Stama is a traitor, and I believe he should be locked up. He is a man who took away. I genuinely mean that. He destroyed democracy. he locked up people for free speech and also he even wanted to remove jury trials. I mean, for me, this is an evil man.

I think unquestionably there was a move under Kirstarmer's premiership to impose state restrictions on freedom of speech and control the judicial system when it should be independent. I think there's no question of that. And I think that's appalling. And thank God he didn't have any more time to pursue that agenda. As for whether he was a great prime minister, great compared to who? Liz Truss. Oh, boring.

Boring. A, incredibly boring, but B, is that it? Is that your benchmark? I mean, no, it's not, but I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. An introduction deriding him because of short service is a bit rich. From a bloke that the trust was the greatest prime minister we never really had. When you're not talking about short service here. We're talking about achievements.

So what did he achieve? I mean, if you listen to Keir Starmer, he's busy telling you that, you know, the economy is, you know, has grown faster than the G7. That's true. Well, pointed out. No, no, only in quarter one, two thousand and twenty-five did it grow faster than anywhere else in the G7. One quarter. It's currently growing faster than any other country in the G7.

Well, that's arguable. Fortunately, Trump has collapsed the US economy. At best, second or third. But does that make him a great prime minister? No, a great prime minister is somebody perhaps like Gladstone or somebody like Salisbury or somebody like Churchill. They're great prime ministers. No, Kirstama, he, look at the Shagos Islands debacle. Look at the failure over the borders.

Look at, you know, he tells you that they're spending more and more on defense. Well, I'm damn sorry. we have gone in his premiership on conventional weaponry and conventional armed forces from spending second in NATO to being number 31 out of 32 and number 32 is Iceland which doesn't have any armed forces. So this is not a great prime minister by any measure and if you can really put down objective measurements

that say he was a great prime minister, not just a prime minister or where he did an adequate job on the economy or something else and held a steady ship, find any of that stuff. Don't, I want, I want a justification for the word great. Well, it's a word that Zelensky has used about his support. Because when the pet... Yeah, because we are pouring money from our bottomless pit towards Ukraine.

One of his worst decisions. We're broke. We're broke. While you live in the comfort and safety of London, when I visited Ukraine and seen the kind of things that those brave people are fighting for, I can't help. There's a lot of brave people in Ukraine. Zelensky ain't one of them.

Zelensky is corrupt. Zelensky is corrupt. Not old people there too. Even people like Laura Luma have admired Zelensky and his guts. And the fact is that when Trump had his tantrum, like the man-child that he is, and tried to throw out the war hero that is Zelensky, it was Kirstama who convened the coalition of the willing to make sure that Ukraine was still protected. I don't know whether Russia's funding you.

Who knows why you're making these arguments? Oh, no, no, no, never. But the fact is that it was Starma that led, and I'm sure that Henry admired him on that. Well, no, no, no, Benjamin. You've just made one of the most appalling accusations just then, suggesting that I am funded by Russia. I'm just asking.

I'm just asking questions, Dan. I am funded by no one. GB News. Just asking questions. I didn't know whether you were like Carlson Tucker. GB News does not need to worry about offcom with Benjamin there. But look, can I just say for one moment, that is a shock.

shocking, shocking thing that people on the left do, no, no, no, hear me out. You've just made an accusation. Linking me to Russia. He thinks thou doth protest too much. Neither of you gentlemen, neither of you gentlemen are economists nor financial people. I did four years at the L.C. actually. Which explains why you've missed the basic point. Well, that proves why our university systems is. Which proves, missed the basic point in relation to your argument. Kirstarmer has wrecked the British economy.

Look at the state of the property market. Look at the state of the jobs market. Look at the state of growth. I mean, it is a total disaster. That's why Burnham even had to fire Rachel Reeves. I mean, it is a disaster. The national insurance increase. The minimum wage.

All the other things that he introduced. The problem is the poorest people getting better pay. But the way that it was done. Benjamin, that is a problem if you are effectively forcing rich people to leave, which has happened under Stommer. If you look at the number of... 16,500 millionaires left last year. That's nonsense.

Well, it's not nonsense. That's a fact. No, it's not a fact. It's a fact. The figures that was based on came from a company that specializes in resettlement visas in the UAE. That's the only place where this source is... I know a lot of rich people, Benjamin, they're out. Well, there you go. Literally, I know you just spoke to a guy outside.

Did you speak to the same guy that I did outside the studio who's just about to quit the country? He told me he spoke to you. He did. He asked me for a selfie. Yeah. And why did he say he was leaving the country? Anti-Semitism.

He doesn't feel safe here. And that's what he told me. And then he asked for a photo and said, what an admirer he was of mine and my stance on defending Israel. But the point is he also said to me that it's because he believes this country is going to the dogs financially. So there is just one person coming into the studio today who we have both met who is quitting the country.

There is anecdotal evidence in droves. And I think you are living in La La Land By definition. Walk at property prices. Okay, so you don't believe the man. As you just said, you don't believe the man who we met walking into the studio. He seemed like a very nice man and I doubt he wants to be in the middle of the debate.

But he's lying. He didn't say any of that to me. I'll tell you this. But you know, you've just proved your point. You just said, I know loads of rich people in London. exactly. That's why you don't care about the kids lifted out of poverty or the people that are now on 12 pounds an hour who can afford to feed themselves. You don't give a damn about that because you live in a rich person's bubble. Okay? And these are the ones who are helped by Sokir Stama.

You gave the game away yourself. Benjamin, if you're the Champaign Socialists in this discussion, if Kirstama was so successful, why did the Labour Party get rid of him? Well, because he wasn't a very effective communicator. Oh, he was a very effective community. And I can hope that Andy Burnham is. He looks like a great communication. communication is starting. But as I was saying before Dan made his introduction, Andy Burnham said what I heard in Makerfield and the voters is move the threshold.

I'm thinking of doing that. Now, no government has done that in years, and we could easily afford to do it if we stopped paying interest to the banks. Now, it wasn't 24 hours before he did a Kyr-Starmine reversed himself. Benjamin, you are, in my view, totally blinkered when it comes to Labor politicians. Can I ask you if it is true that you described Calamity Lammy, our former Deputy Prime Minister, the most stupid MP that we've ever had,

the biggest failure on Celebrity Mastermind we've ever had, the guy who couldn't spot a policeman when he was literally standing behind him. Is it true that you described him as being intelligent and capable in the cabinet? I don't know how many of us have been to Harvard in this room? Oh, so you think university qualifications make you smart, do you? I think to be a Kennedy scholar at Harvard, you have to be remarkably talented. He's a personal friend of President Barack Obama. He is a man of great dignity, of great intelligence.

And that is why he's... We're talking about David Lammy. Exactly. And that is why he has achieved one of the highest offices of any black person in this country. And he came from incredibly modest background. So why did you have to do... You're so dull. Well, I have to ask you...

This is what you do. You draw out the black man to say that he's stupid. That's what people on the far right do. Oh, I think Star is stupid too, by the way. Come off it. No one thinks he's stupid. You think, well, if he's so stupid and he got to be Prime Minister, then, you know, what use of your lot? They can't even get a seat in Parliament. Sorry, nobody voted. That's how it became Prime Minister.

Nobody voted. 20% of the country voted. If you don't vote, you don't get a say. Okay. That's the nature of democracy. But Benjamin, just to make your point, like, this is what you lot do, and it is despicable. I am asking you, I mean, look, look at everyone else who we've criticized in this discussion. Stama, Burnham, Rachel Reeves, it is completely irrelevant what their gender, I know you think

there's 150 or something, or what they're racist. I then mentioned David Lammy, who we all agree, right, was the most disastrous deputy prime ministered justice secretary. All of, I mean, the Bell Hotel rape or sexual assault. Walter was let out on the loose under Lammy, and Lammy decided to go to a diversity meeting instead. And what do you do? And I'm sorry to bring it back to this,

but I think it's so disgusting that you did it. Immediately, you bring it back to race. You're obsessed with race. And I think it actually means that you are the races here. You're the anti-white racists here. We have had 14 years of Tory incompetence, corruption, scandals, nonsense. I really hoped that things would be different.

but we've now had two years of even worse. I mean, all of these politicians are just terrible. I agree. And that's the bottom line problem that we've got. And I know it's going slightly off topic, but it's the context, that we have got a generation of politicians sitting in the House of Commons

that frankly, 95 if not more, percent of them nowhere near it. They're not competent to be governing. Nobody else wants the job. And they haven't got the leadership. When I interviewed Nigel Farage and asked him, Why do we have such lousy politicians in the West? He said, the answer is simple.

You had Truman, Eisenhower, people like that, like Trump, like Berlusconi, people who had gone out and done something in the world who wanted to put something back. Today, you have Oxbridge PPE professional politicians who only care about how many votes are you getting. Because it's interesting, Benjamin, that your defense of David Lammy, I can sum up in three ideas. Ivy League University, friend with Obama, black. What you haven't done is actually pointed out to me why he was intelligent and capable in the cabinet. What he achieved as foreign minister or justice secretary?

I mean, for me, the predominant thing on the justice is... Being out a whole load of criminals and taking jury trial. Which is despicable. Which frankly was utterly and completely shocking. And anybody in this country, of all countries, that thinks that was okay. Or even the support of early release, I know there's a problem with prisons, but there are other solutions to that,

but the idea that the early release from prisons is acceptable of rapists and people who have assaulted and killed police officers is utterly. And it's okay for cabinet ministers to stand around drinking champagne, like pensioners, and laugh about it. Look, Henry, you can choose your own opinions, but you can't choose your own facts. It's the Home Secretary that's responsible for prisons, not the Justice Secretary. And the fact is that many... That's not actually correct.

Prison's minister is a home office position. So you'll find it's in that department. The prison policy comes out of justice. And the early release schemes, that was all landing. We're off topic again. The question is, was Kirstarmer a good prime minister? And third time now, you haven't even come near a whiff of proving it. Well, I mean...

Okay, we'll give a final word to prove it. Where's your proof? There's no point debating with the irrational and the deluded. The fact is that the economy did better, the poorest were treated better, and dignity was restored. Why are we bothering, Roger? Because I like him. Okay, well, look, let's continue the clash out of aid featuring a disgruntled millennial up against two boomers. And now we're going head to head on whether inheritance tax is fair.

Many pensioners work hard to leave their property or land to their children, only for the receiver to be taxed for the crime of having had a valuable asset passed down to them by their deceased loved ones. Which was paid for by tax funds already. Yes, indeed. One person who thinks this is the wocus man in Britain, Benjamin Butterworth. He is up against Restore Britain's Henry Bolton. We just heard him there, Roger Giewol. But Roger, I know again, this is going to be hard. You have to let Benjamin have his 60 seconds to make his point. That's how this works, okay? Because you've got to admit it's three on one against Benjamin today. So Benjamin, 60 seconds, Roger's going to stay silent. Two on one. You're going to stay silent. Oh, there's nothing neutral about me, Roger.

Go Benjamin. It's like having an Argentinian ref with Dan here. Now, the fact is that in this country, we have the highest taxes since the Second World War for working people. We have a serious problem. I think that it is much fairer. In fact, the fairest way to fund the essential services we need. like social care, like health care, by taxing inheritance. Many people who have died in this day and age, the properties they bought were for a fraction of the value they're worth at the time they pass. This is not earned income at all.

The vast majority of that value is unearned. It is not only causing a nightmare in our economy and stopping young people getting on the housing ladder, but it means that when they pass, we should tax that at a higher rate so that you take from those people, that unearned income, that they have passed and use that to fund the essentials for the rest of society.

It is a much fairer way to run the country. And I think that we should be more supportive and have higher inheritance tax in order to save it. Okay, your minutes up. Reform UK's Roger Giewel. Your response. I'm going to agree with Benjamin because in America, there is capital gain, there is no PPR. There is no principal private residence exemption. you are taxed at capital gains rates of 25 to 28% on the dollar profit that you make on the home you live in and you say to an American, wow, we don't pay, really?

I mean, to them, it's just natural. You sell a house and you make $100,000 more than you paid for it. You're left with $75,000 of that and it's been the way since, God, 1911, 1916, something like that. this is and his argument is essentially the equivalent and I don't think that that's particularly unfair but do you know how much inheritance tax actually raises? No, go on. Seven billion. It's not a lot.

So it's neither here nor there. But I mean, I'm going to... But it's cruel, Henry. No, I'm going to agree with Benjamin on that point. Okay, good. Well, good. Let's get Henry to come in then with the opposing view. If that gets $7 billion that can allow pensioners to...

to stop drinking the crap Bollinger that they're drinking and have crystal, I'm all for it. Henry Volton. I'm enjoying this, Roger. Thank you. Glad someone is. And well done, Benjamin, for having such a thick skin.

I actually, I think it should, similarly, I think actually it should be treated rather like an investment. You invest in stocks and shares and you get an income from it, then you pay that as income tax or whatever it may be. And I think there should be a scheme like that. But I do not

I do not fundamentally believe that we should have an inheritance tax. And the reason I say that is because it's an absolute, it disincentivizes somebody being ambitious and growing their portfolio and growing their estate and growing something that they can then hand on. And I think that's intrinsically wrong. I think it's damaging to the economy. It reduces the whole sort of motivation to do well and build. it's almost against the human sort of kind of psyche

and to leave something a legacy to your children's on. So I absolutely oppose the inheritance tax. We need to abolish inheritance tax, but I think there is a good argument for saying that there should be some sort of taxation on effectively the investment. But you love inheritance tax pension. The difference that the oddity to that argument

is that Henry is therefore suggesting that yes, you should be able to get a proportion of that gain, but you should take it while they're alive rather than when they pass. No, no, no, that's not what I said. I think it's fairer to say that when you die the state takes that bit to cover the costs, because most people would rather that. Who's the recipient of it? As in the government gets the money in order to fund the services.

It's an income from an investment, isn't it? Yeah, from a house. So why do we have to have another tax? Why do we have to have that inheritance tax system? Well, you have to cover the costs of things like social care. Right. No, no, no. We're talking about income, aren't we? Are we talking about different taxation, don't we? Why have we got to have two forms of taxation when we could have the one? You were talking about putting a tax on the inflation in assets. Is that correct?

If you invest money and you get a return on that money, it is income, you pay tax on their income, don't you? Depending on how you're stuck. Okay, fine. Is buying a house these days, rightly or wrongly, that's another thing on housing policy? But is buying property considered by many people as an investment? Sadly, yes, that's part of why. So they paid the tax. double tax. So when that, but when that property, the investment, so Robert, Roger explained it quite well, I think, you know, if you, if you gain a hundred, hundred thousand pounds on profit from selling that, you bought a house, a property, it's an investment, you sell it, you've made a hundred thousand pounds. Well, that's income, isn't it?

Yes. Right. Why? But if that person, if you die, and that hundred thousand pounds is still there, okay, it goes to somebody else, doesn't it? Right. But that's inheritance tax. But that's, no, but yes, I'm asking you, why do we have to have an inheritance tax? Why not? Doesn't that go? Exactly.

It's a double tax. Can I, can I be honest? If anyone knows what that meant, do right in. Well, can I, can I be honest? This is the problem. You don't understand it. You clearly don't understand it because. Well, you just described the concept of inheritance tax.

No, no, no, no. He said that you pay tax on the income when you inherit it. You don't understand. Your view is always double taxing people as good. Can I make a point about what I think this is really about? You, despise the middle classes. I am middle class. No, you're not.

No, you're not. What am I? You're the woke class. And the woke classes are particularly revolting group of people who want to destroy the middle classes. No, you do. You hate the Daily Mail reading middle classes. No, no, no, just let me explain why and then you can come in. Because inheritance tax is a particularly vicious attack on the middle classes.

The hardworking people who have spent their lives, building small businesses and trying to make sure that they pass something onto their family. And the thing is, you know full well that the mega wealthy find loads of ways to reverse and avoid inheritance tax. Exactly. So guess who is affected, the middle classes? And I feel like there is a war on the daily male middle classes in this country. And that's what this is about. You want to hit them hard. I don't care what newspaper they read. What I care of is that the very small number of people who are affected by inheritance tax is completely fair. Now, let's be clear, if you're inheriting a house and your parents were married, or whoever's

giving, you know, if your parents were married, then the threshold kicks in at one million pounds. Now, not many people in this country are inheriting in excess of one million pounds. No, no, no, no. The standard nil rate band has actually stayed at $325,000 for many years. And guess what's happened over that period of time? House prices have risen, inflation has risen, that pulls more individuals into that tax plan. He's right, Dan, it is a million. It is because, and I know this,

because I'm currently inheriting and will be eligible to pay inheritance tax. So, you know, I'm doing what I preach. The fact is that £325,000, if it were cash, would be the case. But if you're inheriting a property, it goes to 500. And if your parents were married, which will be the vast majority of cases,

it goes to a million because it doubles. And so that means that very few people are affected. I know, Dan, I hate to say it, You can choose your opinions. You can't choose your facts, no matter how loudly you shout across the table. What are you going to do when you inherit? What am I going to do when I inherit? Dump all your friends, buy a nice house and join the Tories?

Well, I look forward to telling them that if only they'd spent less than avocados and Netflix, they too would be on the housing ladder. It's true. It's true. It is fair to take the money from people from quite wealthy estates at that stage, rather than take it from people that are going to work. Now, we've recently heard. Well, farmers have different rules, don't they?

But people who you are going to destroy their family business. You talk about fairness, but actually this isn't fair at all. It's ideological. You're talking about, in all of these things. You raise a good point. I should have added farmers on to what I say. I would make an exception for them. Don't get Dan started on big farmer.

And I mean this, I don't mean this as an attack. Just an observation. It appears to me, I might not like the ideology. myself, but it appears to me that everything that you've said is ideologically driven. Yes. It's not about what actually contributes to the confidence, the optimism, the prosperity and the security of the people living in the United Kingdom and, you know, the British people. It's about your ideology.

And it seems to me, and again, an observation, on the left of British politics, on the centre and the left, it seems to me that this is the established way of thinking. We pursue an ideology. We don't pursue the effects that we're trying to deliver. And that... Well, no, but the ideology is to destroy them in all classes, though. Correct. But that's...

Redistribute wealth. Yes. That's it. And so if... And as a result, you focus on these things. Inheritance tax, this is an emotive thing, and that's why you latch onto it. But actually, we need to... But it's a more fundamental thing, because what does it do?

It makes people think, well, what's the point of me only my own now? The problem with all these solves, the whole tax system needs dealing with. The problem with all these things that Benjamin is talking about, emanates from the fact that people his age never saw redistribution of wealth, communism, and socialism how it doesn't work repeatedly over and over no way. We have an 80% tax rate indeed. We've got millions of Eastern Europeans. Rogers just made such a good point.

Let me finish. You grew up. Millions of Eastern Europeans in this country. Go ask any of them what their country is like. I mean, Eastern Europe is very nice these days. No, but asked him what it was like under communism. What Roger is saying is that you grew up, and this is such a fundamental point, and I think it comes to what Henry's saying too. You grew up, the woke class grew up with all of the benefits of capitalism, and now you're trying to reverse it.

We created. Exactly. And which your generation helped fight for. Now you're trying to reverse it because you have no idea of what the generations before you had to live through under communism and socialism. Whippers, snappers? Oh, give it a rest. Who was Prime Minister when you were 15? Let's say 15 is the time that you might have become politically aware.

15, it was changing from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown. Right. Okay, so this is your experience. And this sounds patronising. It genuinely isn't meant to be. How I mean it to be. Okay. But genuinely, you know, that's such a tiny window on the turmoil of 20 or 13 or.

The history books, Benjamin. You need to read the history books and wise up about what's coming under communism and socialism. Because you ain't going to like it because you're actually a guy that likes the nice things in life. They're all going to be taken away very shortly. I like nice things and I paid for them all myself. The fact is I'm not a communist. You won't be able to afford to. You've had to distract from the very rational point that both of your other guests agreed with.

You were so terrified that I'd made a good point. You had to go off onto nonsense about communism. The fact is that, by the way, why don't you answer a question? Well, no, he didn't, Roger, because you're not, you were both not. stating the correct facts because I've checked. Careful of fake town's coming off. No, no, it's being mischievous. Because actually, I know, I just want to run through it

because given you have both gist, I'm spreading fake news, I'm not. The standard UK inheritance tax threshold is £325,000. It can increase up to £500,000 and £5,000 if you leave a home to your children or up to $1 million for married couples. Literally what I said. No, but you were saying. the answers rather than just monologue all day. No, you didn't say Mary.

The good news is it was filmed. And that's only because they can combine their allowance. Yes, that's exactly what I said. I assume you won't edit this out when you realize you've humiliated yourself once again. I feel far from humiliation, Benjamin, because what I'm fighting for is a country

where we're not taxed to death. You're so vexed the fake town is coming off. The truth is that we have 18 billion pounds in social care bills to fund. I think it is a better way to say that these people who have had vast increases in the value of their homes when they pass you should use that money to cover the health care they need that's better than people that work hard

has spread three pieces of fake news today I'm funded by the Russians I didn't say that I just ask questions I'm a journalist I use fake tan and that I'm humiliated by brilliant presentation of this amazing show where I spit the facts and you spread lies but look what a fascinating clash all the same Wonderful. Who do you think won, Roger?

You think Benjamin won the last part? Undoubtedly, we did. I think Benjamin scored some good points on the last one, but the first two are absolutely hopeless. He's deluded. I'm looking forward to my retirement, though. I mean, these champagne cruises and all the rest of them. He just hates old people, you know.

There's two old people I would pay to go off on a saga cruise for a long time. What a saga cruise to suit down? Oh, no, it's lovely there. Sorry, I forgot. I've been to many discontes. They come across in the small. boats. I'd get them the other way when I holiday in Yemen. I bet you didn't use the lift and go up to any roof, so.

I did not. Good, because they want to throw you off the top of the buildings. Needless to say, needless to say, I was right. Reform U.K.'s Roger Keywell. Benjamin Butterworth. Benjamin, where can we find you on social media, presumably? At Benjamin Butter, but please don't tweet me if you watch this show. And Henry Bolton.

How is it going, Henry? as the new National Defence Most President for Restore Britain. It's really interesting. Just objectively, I know people... Rupert's... I know people... Rupert Lowe, the leader of Restore Britain.

Rupert is a tremendous man to work for. Lists. Humble, delegates. And... Everything Benjamin's not. And of course, one of the things for me, with my background, National Security, Defence, Police, and Borders,

you know, that's a portfolio that I'm building. And I'm really... it's exciting to be given that to get my teeth into. Isn't it great Benjamin to see a positive new political force like Restore Britain in this country? No. Okay. Let's not debate it. Let's not debate it.

I can't. But look, thank you so much. I think it was very good spirited. And that is a way. Someone does. It's very important. We had some fun. Okay.

I hope you're still with us. I can just imagine the comments right now saying, is Benjamin going to be a regular? We are going to move over to Substack now though for the Royal Uncanceled After Show. So at this stage we come off YouTube, we move to our own platform to continue the conversation

in the Royal Uncanceled After Show. All you have to do to watch is sign up at www. outspoken. But we will be back with you tomorrow at 5pm UK time, midday Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific.

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